Article 377 has brought to fore a strong debate on homosexuality. As in case of any debate, when emotions run high, facts take a backseat. Opponents to homosexuality claim it is unnatural and a mental disease. Proponents try to emphasize that it is completely natural. Even the Delhi High Court only focussed on hypes and gave a judgment that was surprisingly devoid of any credible fact or reason. Unfortunately none of the two sides are able to give convincing logic and facts to back their claims. Here is a look into some of the claims. Let us scratch beneath the surface and understand the reality.
Claim 1: Homosexuality is natural, other species also exhibit it
Nothing can be more ridiculous. The only evidence produced in favor of this myth is pictures of animals of same gender in close contact. However, no study has been able to prove that animals come in close contact to other animals of same gender out of any sexual attraction to same-sex. This is like claiming that two men are homosexual because they are close friends!
Please refer section Assumption 2: Homosexuality is natural of my article http://agniveer.com/featured/gay/ for more on this.
Summary:
No study has been able to prove that homosexuality – sexual attraction to same-sex is a natural behavior for all species.
Claim 2: Homosexuality is normal, American Psychiatric Association, WHO and other reputed organizations consider homosexuality to be abnormal
This claim merely passes the buck to someone else. But before taking this at face value, we need to ascertain what makes an American Psychiatric Association or WHO view on homosexuality so authoritative?
In this behalf the following need to be considered:
a. Till 1973, homosexuality was considered a mental disorder. Then due to strong lobbying by gay-activists, American Psychiatric Association (APA) changed its stand. In 1974, the matter was brought on voting wherein 32% of the members voted in favor of the proposed change in stand of APA. Around 21% voted for continuation of considering homosexuality as a mental disorder. The rest abstained or did not vote. Once APA was won, the rest of the organizations simply followed the suite citing APA in the same way as the proponents of gay-protection in India are doing now.
The fact of the matter though remains that there has been no study or scientific study whatsoever that could explain why homosexuality is suddenly no longer a mental disorder since 1973. Homosexuality is no more a mental disease only on basis of opinion of majority. By this logic, earth must have been flat in medieval times and suddenly became round after most text-books started accepting that earth is flat!
Further psychiatry is a very vague science. Perhaps the least understood thing in world is human mind. Unlike other fields in medicine or engineering or science, the observations of psychiatry are at best judgmental. The best evidence of this would be a study of the symptoms of all the mental disorders. One can browse wikipedia for it. Interestingly almost entire population of humans can be classified as mentally disordered or a borderline case as per their findings. This is not to claim that psychiatrists do a bad job. But simply that the human mind is too complex a machine for one to take any conclusion of psychiatrists authoritatively.
An argument given in favor of homosexuality is that psychiatrists have failed to find what makes one homosexual. Hence it has to be natural and not a mental disorder. The fact is true but the inference is misled.
Psychiatrists have failed to find what makes someone a murderer or rapist or kleptomaniac or possessor of many of the manias. Had it been so, most crimes could have been forecasted! That does not imply tendency of murder or rape or mania is natural. It only implies that psychiatrists need to do more homework on understanding this. Further ask psychiatrists why they consider a mania to be a disorder if they do not know what causes the mania?
More importantly, it has nothing to do with legalizing homosexuality. A pyromaniac has an uncontrollable desire for putting fires. Someone having Anti-social Personality Disorder tends to harm people. Now regardless of whether psychiatry considers them as disorder or not, they will continue to be imprisoned from perspective of law. For law, the concern is whether independence given to such people can have adverse impact on the society or not.
And in any case, failure to find something does not mean that it does not exist. Had it been so, laws of nature would change immediately after every discovery of new fact!
In summary:
- Psychiatry is a judgmental science and its conclusions are at best suggestions.
- On issue of homosexuality, a significant number of psychiatrists had believed homosexuality to be a disorder. It is however not considered a disorder only on basis of majority vote.
- There are no scientific studies or evidences to suggest that homosexuality is normal behavior except that psychiatrists have so far not been able to find conclusive causes for it.
A more important point to be noted is that a personality needs to be assessed in context of its cultural setup. Culture is one of the most critical factors of any personality. Thus, psychiatrists can never ascertain the cause of homosexuality if that cause has remained more or less the same in all samples that they have considered for their studies.
All the studies to discover the mystery of homosexuality have taken place primarily in liberal cultures served with an overdose of sex and materialism. For a population being served with overdose of spices, it is perfectly normal to find symptoms of piles. Now if doctors put the best of their efforts to find cause of piles in a population, but ignore food habits as a factor, what would be their conclusion, if they follow the logic of psychiatrists – that “Piles is a natural trait of many humans. Thus World Medical Council will stop considering piles to be a disease!”.
To be actually able to discover the mystery of homosexuality which is nothing but a perverted form of excess sexual cravings (Psychiatrists consider it to be a disorder though!), they should observe a control population of people practicing Brahmacharya (refer my article http://agniveer.com/vedas/hope-homo/ ) and only then claim that homosexuality is a mystery, and hence natural.
Claim 3: Homosexuality is inborn just as some children are right-handed and some left-handed (Outdated in west)
This claim has long been discarded in West after several key studies claiming it were proven fraud. In India, this old argument still continues to be cited to confuse people. Even the Delhi High Court assumed homosexuals to be a community based on this long discarded assumption.
The facts, however, are as follows:
- Even APA and all leading gay-organizations agree that homosexuality is not inborn. No biological link to homosexuality has ever been found. American Psychological Association had to revise its document of homosexuality to admit that it is not biological. (Refer my article http://agniveer.com/featured/gay/ )
- Homosexuality is a shifting tendency. There are umpteen cases where people shifted from gay to straight and vice versa, and even several times! Thus it is not a stable behavior. Seeing airing of cases in public, gay lobby came with something more interesting. Now they have a 6 point scale and a questionnaire to assess how much gay you are. And they claim that one’s score can vary in different phases of life.
Claim 4: Making homosexuality illegal victimizes gays. They do not get proper HIV/AIDS treatment. This is against human-rights
This is another lame excuse. The State does not debar gays from medical treatment. Even murder convicts are allowed treatment of diseases. If this be the argument, then all crimes should be legalized.
Claim 5: Private consensual act is not a crime. Gays are not harming the society
The first part of this claim is most discussed and the second part the least highlighted. Here are the facts of the cases though:
- Homosexuals are the founders and first carriers of HIV/AIDS.
- As per medical studies, the very act of unnatural sex that gays follow brings highest risk of HIV/AIDS transmission. As per Current Medical Diagnostic and Trends (CMDT) 2009, the unnatural sexual intercourse process of gays is at least 10 to 30 times more risky for spread of HIV/AIDS than normal intercourse.
- All studies have shown that monogamy is a rarity in homosexuals. Thus their carrier potential becomes even stronger.
- Almost 50% of homosexual population is actually bisexual as per various studies. These ensure that HIV/AIDS easily circulated to opposite gender as well.
- Of total male AIDS patient is USA, 73% contracted the disease through MSM (male having sex with male). Female account for only 26% of AIDS cases and 80% of them contracted from male partners. Now a male has probability of contracting HIV from a woman of only 1 in 10,000 but it is 1 in 30 from a man. (Refer CMDT 2011). Thus MSM is the predominant cause for AIDS propagation.
Thus what gays do in privacy helps promote epidemic for rest of the society. And remember, there is no treatment for curing HIV/AIDS. All that scientists have been able to do is to spend billions and trillions and create medicines which merely delay the symptoms.
The truth
HIV/AIDS is a great business proposition for companies. There are billions of research grants, tremendous funds from countries for HIV/AIDS management. Further sex is the most effective tool for marketing any damn product. Thus it is in interest of all commercial cartels to ensure that sex is sold to extent possible. And public at large is thus made the scapegoat.
Even the petitioners admitted in their plea to Delhi High Court that gays represent the most vulnerable population for HIV/AIDS and hence homosexuality should be legalized. This will help them get HIV/AIDS treatment. In other words:
“Legalize homosexuality, so that we get more customers for our product. These customers will perform viral marketing for us to get even more customers. Our product cannot solve their problem. But we want to ensure that our products are used by our potential customers for whatever period they live! Let people enjoy their lives and use all possible means to explore their sex instincts. This helps us sell so many otherwise completely worthless products – HIV/AIDS treatment plans, HIV/AIDS research, pornography, glamor, fashion products, etc etc. Nothing is better than a customer segment which cannot think sensibly and has no recourse except what we offer!”
While we waste time and energy in debating something which is clearly purposeless, unreasonable, deadly and filthy, billions are earned from our own pockets by those who want to dupe us for obvious reasons. And we pride in ourselves to get duped!
Einstein once remarked, “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.”
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About Agniveer
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.” Clearly. Your post on homosexuality proves the infiniteness of stupidity and ignorance (in you). Pretty amazing stuff.
Thanks for the feedback. Would request to bring proofs and evidences in case you differ.
I am a Gay and I am absolutely certain about my love and my right to express it. I didn't even wait for WHO etc to know that. Its a love I believe that is worth living for or to die for. As regards your wishes you may like to exterminate gays from the world? For you may not find many or any gay who will accept your version that their love is wrong. Law or no law. Your acceptance or no acceptance. I exist. And I have no clue why I should not live my life because of your unfounded fears and doubts. Make it as hard as you want, but energy of conviction comes from beleif – and that lies within me – a real person. Yours is purely attempt at rationalising your stand and you cannot beat the belief I have in my existence. You can only make it difficult and tough, and if you think you are right in doing so, go ahead – but be sure you will be hurting a lot of people. But you cannot get me to ever think otherwise about myself. For the last 1000s of years and for eternity hereon.
Dear sna.
I have even more conviction in your existence than you have in yourself. The media and the hoaxes around have fooled you to believe that your identity is that of a gay or of with a love that is worth living or dying for. Since you were born, the environment around you, the media, the TV, the films, the culture – made you believe that your identity lies in what you do and what you feel like. And it were these agents in the environment – Tv, media, films, culture, books, ads etc – who made you believe what you today believe. For them it gave them their billions of dollar. And you became an accidental guinea pig. Sex is overemphasized by these agents because sex sells the hottest. And guinea pigs like you and me tend to find whatever avenues you get to satisfy this urge of sex. For you, accidentally, it happened through a gay identity.
But in summary, it was not your choice to make your identity. You are a soul whose only identity at birth was male. Whatever else you believe to be your identity was imposed by the system. In a recent movie, BOLT, a dog got into believing that he has some different powers because he was made to believe so by those who ran a TV show in which the dog was a major character. We all tend to create our fake identities which are actually imposed by the system around driven by lust of those who want to earn from our foolishness.
The fact is that you can get whatever identity you want to get from yourself. But an externally imposed identity that does not lead you to purposeful living will make this gift of life a sheer waste. Remember you are not a mere chemical reaction that will extinguish after certain years. The fraud agents around you may force you to believe so, because that helps their goals. But the reality is that you are a soul that will continue to live even after the body is over. Your job in this life is to put efforts for a higher purpose that goes beyond living with a fake identity. That alone can give you real happiness and help you reassert your true identity.
Love is not what you are assuming it to be. There is much more to life and meaning of love than a conditional training of response of secretion of certain hormones when something gets through your sensory inputs driven by what the media and environment around you train you for. This slavery is not your identity. You identity is in liberty and assertion of true identity – beyond conditioned behavior.
Introspect once more and you will realise how you have been trained to be a slave. Its like the Neo in Matrix. My goal is not to discriminate against you. But help you reclaim your true potential and limitness happiness which is obscured from you due to a wrongly trained mindset. You are not a criminal, you are merely a victim. And if you are helped, society will be helped. In your true liberation lies true liberation of the society and vice versa. You were not born gay. No one is. You were fooled by the system to become gay and hence move in a direction opposite to the one which can give you happiness and sense of purpose.
Remember, you are not a chemical reaction and love is not a mere game of hormone secretion. And I am doing this because I am a genuine friend and not a fraud marketeer.
Hi sna,
I was also termed as a lesbian by my college mates as i used to appreciate girls and felt comfortable with them. Being from a conservative family talking, involving with guys was not on my part. And todays fashion term it lesbian. But soon i realised if i love a girl, does that mean i am lesbian. Even i have same intimate attachment with my mother, sister, friends ..I hug them , kiss them feel on the best of the world with them and they too are females. I feel comfort ..and does that mean only sex urge. How do you define love?
Sex urge or comfort or what??
It was just the peer pressure which ought me to think in such a direction. Influence of this dostana and Hollywood culture makes you feel proud being gay..but this is your misunderstanding. In ealier days girls had girl as fren and boys had boy as fren…Then will you claim all to be lesbian and gays.
You exist and and in your utmost natural form.
I have gone through your days and can feel the dilemma and hence stop this false belief which you are forcefully implying on yourself.
Some clarifications on homosexuality:
a. Enjoying company of same gender is not a homosexual behavior. It is in fact a normal behavior. However having sexual attraction – characterized by desire for sensual touch, intercourse etc – is what is homosexuality.
b. In western culture, sex is overhyped. And hence many normal people, who are not comfortable having unnecessary sexual attraction to opposite gender, tend to feel that they are homosexual.
c. In reality, as rightly directed by the Eastern wisdom, a normal person would enjoy company of same gender without an iota of sexual attraction. And he or she ought to keep restraint in interaction with opposite gender. Thus we tend to promote the concept of monogamy, not in terms of only marriage but even in thoughts. Friendship is not not homosexuality so far it is at mental level.
d. Thus uncontrolled sexual expression towards any gender is a mental disorder. Having same towards same gender is even more serious.
So I believe you are not homosexual. The media around you is fooling you to believe so. Enjoy the intellectual satisfaction you derive from a friendship but let not media fool you to start having physical affinity towards it.
Put simply, Brahmacharis are not gays. They are role models in terms of moral conduct instead.
Let sexual feelings be restricted only to one life partner, that too for specific purpose and periods, throughout the life. Any further sexual craving is an abnormality with untoward consequences. Homosexuality represents a serious extreme.
hey this is a bunch of lies. The question is why are so called hetero men so uncomfortable with homosexuality. In fact the objection from women is non exsistant. Are men so uncomforatble with their so called masculinity. What has been written in religious or other text is a matter of debate. Most fact written in these texts have been proven to be myths. The case of earth flat /round is the biggest myth in bible exploded. These texts were formed at times which had lack lack of knowledge or information. Currently in 21st century science and technology and information are exposing these myths. The relevence of all these texts are only the extent of getting the basic tenets right. The biggest is the truth. If a gay person is confessing to being gay then this truth must be accepted. It is a very private choice and no person has a right to question.
It is a private choice so far it is not detrimental to rest of the society. Science has proven that homosexuality is most dangerous transmitter of HIV/AIDS.
Further, if private choice be the reason for its acceptance, even narcotics, incest etc should be legalized.
Homosexuality has no biological, genetic or any other basis whatsoever. The only basis is an addicted mentality fueled by sexual perversion. No science or information has been able to support it. And its dangerous for society both in terms of morality and health.
so what your saying is because in your close minded and censored world science hasn’t yet worked out why homosexuality exists it is just a figment of our imagination?
Pretty sure scientists arent quite sure why the universe or anything in it is here either so i guess we shouldn’t worry about sexual orientation, according to you we dont exist anyway.
Dear Agniveer
Unless people change their eating habits, its not possible for them to change their thoughts / thoght-process, as we have the saying "YATHA ANN, TATHA MAN" The things you eat make your mind. Those who take abnormal things, can't keep a control over their mind. Hence as their thought process is connected to their eating habits also, which are not NATURAL., they should try living on Natural Vegetarian NON- TAMSIK diet for a few days and then tell , if they still like this Unnatural behaviour ?
I agree. In modern era food has corrupted beyond rational levels. It is highly improbable for a vegetarian, non-alcoholic person who eats Sattvik food and has a sattvik lifestyle to have any homosexual tendencies.
Now we will have GAYS, hanging all over the ways
Showing Thumb to others, and clinging on to each other
GAYS are GAY, they have Government on their way
Let everyone else may get Hell , for their ways
Next in numbers will be their brothers & sisters
Who will now have Liberty , to have Drugs for their Freedom
No more now, they can be considered as drug-slaves
The prostitutes from now-on, will have no Nonsense to their names
When every body else have adopted their Ways
With Nonsensense in Government & Nonsense on Top
How & why, we want any sense to Prevail ?
This is all bulllshit.
People should be able to be whatever they want. It's why America is such a beautiful country..
Because people actually have rights and freedom.
Whether it is someone being gay, or someone wondering if they are, it shouldn't matter.
America is a free country and everyone has individual rights.
Should I be free to keep bombs and weapons? Who will take responsibility of damage? Freedom at cost of social damage is foolhardiness. Why don't we canvass for polygamy and incest as well, then? And what about consented murders?
More people die from driving a car than from HIV. For someone who seems to know about sociology, you should know that media attention is not proportional to those risks. They have made you scared.
Also, African American women are the demographic gaining HIV the fastest. Does that mean they shouldn't be allowed to have sex with anyone? HIV is not simply connected to homosexuality– it is not as if it would dissapear if the gays did.
In this day and age, HIV statistics can not be used as an arguement against gay rights. It is true that unprotected anal intercourse is more dangerous than unprotected vaginal intercourse, and that is why everyone should practice safe sex. If you are afraid of gay people harming you somehow, where a condom.
Dear Friend, There is a difference in demographic correlation and causal correlation. One does not become suspectible to AIDS by being Afro-American. But the process of anal sex – the primary method for gays – causes increased risk of AIDS transmission. This coupled with non-monogamous tendencies make this act a risky affair. Also, if condoms had been so effective in mitigating AIDS, why the statistics is rising. First, condom is not fool-proof and chances of condom bursts are higher in anal sex – after all nature did not make anus for penetration of penis! It was meant for excretion in opposite direction Secondly, by this logic, even machine-guns, bombs and narcotics should be legalized. After all you have entire law and order to catch hold of someone if he uses it recklessly! And why should you punish me if I keep bombs in my house but do not blast others? By the way who shall take guarantee that someone who is so obssessed with sex that he would go for anal recourse would be responsible enough to use condom!
I think it is preposterous that a site like yours exists.
Somebody here has actually suggested that eating non vegetarian food would make one homosexual.
And what's worse it that a moderator for comment has agreed.
Says a lot not only about your credibility, but about your intelligence level too.
It is a disgrace that you say all of this in the name of Hindu culture. Not very different from terrorists killing in the name of Jihad is it?
As someone once said, it is a pity that "there exists enough religion to make us all hate one another, but not nearly enough to make us love."
Comments are not necessarily my personal views and are merely an avenue for open and fair discussion. In same manner that I disagree to your views but have still published your comment.
Who said I hate anyone? All I imply is that psychological disorder leading to unnatural disease spreading acts of few individuals should not affect society at large. Prove my evidence on AIDS wrong and I shall be eager to reconsider my stand.
Your tirade against consumer culture has gone a tad to far to ever be considered the pontifications of a stable mind.
Simply put, you need medication. And lay off the commie literature for a while. Ok?
Love and Respect.
Get Well Soon.
You did not present facts…you simply spouted your hatred. Deal with it. You make up the facts so that you can hurt people. Nice going there…so very mature.
Love not hate.
What your article says to me is almost as convincing as Hitler's speech to his people about those of the Jewish faith, be careful "friend" we don't want another holocaust.
Gayism is a choice, and not a birth-based disease. And its quite dangerous for general health of public and gays themselves. I am not for prosecution of gays but for there rehabilitation that helps them discover their true potential and purpose with confidence. And ensure that society at large in not threatened by their psychological problem.
You are the one who is dangerous to the public health, with all your ignorant, naive, hateful remarks. I agree with Michael…you might want to be careful before spouting so much hatred or you will sound like Hitler…not a good thing I might add.
You are no froend to the gay community…
I am a friend dear! All I have written is on basis of facts and evidences. And the benefit of gays lie in rising above the illusion in which they are living.
facts…hahahah you pulled all that crap out of your ass…that or you got if from those crazy christian websites…its all lies I might add….all lies.
I agree the scale was developed in fifties. But has any new research happened so far that brings a sense of permanence in this behavior or proves it less unhealthy? To term something as mental disorder is a subjective concept. To me, even prostitution and indulgence in pornography are mental disorders. So far such disorders remain to individuals, we can do little in a sane society. but when it spread AIDS 30 times faster, in name of a stupid source of pleasure, there is cause for concern.
Thanks by the way for your comments. I have clues to enhance my expressions!
i thnk that gay people should do what ever they want. they are human beings. it doesnt matter what race, or believes. they are humans. Dont hate.
You are a homophobic asshole and need to go dunk your head in a toilet bowl. Fuck you and your homophobic remarks.
Well put my dear.
The so called "gay gene" is yet to be found.
Unless a particular male has very high amounts of estrogen(The female hormon) there is no biological basis to become Gay.A very small percentage of gays have high estrogen.
soko writes "Well, we haven't found a straight gene yet either. ".
That is precisely the point.You are built to be straight unless otherwise there is a serious hormonal problem.
One question: Where are you’re sources? Are you too afraid that they are, in fact biased? I would like to see the source that told you “Homosexuals are the founders and first carriers of HIV/AIDS.” That is JUST offensive! I have not heard ANYWHERE about this! In fact, when I googled this statement, the only website that was anywhere similar to the BS you’re spouting is this page. I have a feeling you pulled this judgmental, biased and offensive statement completely out of your dino-size brain. How dare you post such a false statement where the whole world can read it. The SCIENTIFICALLY researched origin of HIV point toward a “hunter” who ATE infected chimp meat. Is it just me, or does this have NOTHING to do with homosexuality? Moreover, are you suggesting in your “73%” figure that even the women who have HIV/AIDS have had “MSM”? Bet you didn’t know this, but not only men get AIDS, and definitely not 73%+ of the people living with this illness are gay males. I strongly urge you to remove this article, not just because it is completely homophobic, but it COMPLETELY ruins your credibility on ANY of your articles. How am I supposed to know that you didn’t just make that stuff up too. (Oh way maybe you did)
Refer Principles of Internal Medicine by Harrison (17th Edition) and CMDT (2009) for references. Instead of anecdotal references given by most pro-homosexuality authors as well as APA, I have based it purely on available medical facts that homo-lover people seem to ignore for obvious reasons.
Please do not quote these hunter stories to even a modern-era homosexual activist. He may beat you up for the satire. Let them have at least some achievements to be proud of.
Also MSM is definitely riskier than WSW.
As for my credibility, that is already ruined in front of homosexuals and their activists. Nothing except madness and amorous upbringing caused partially due to the prevailing sex-oriented culture explains homosexuality – no gene, no chemical, no logic, no nature – nothing else.
Nonetheless, we don’t recommend them to be murdered or tortured. We simply recommend them to be discouraged and offered mental rehabilitation in path of Yoga to cure such tendencies of mind. And in the interim, all measures should be taken to ensure that they don’t start spreading AIDS due to shifting compulsive sexual disorder. Baba Ramdev puts it perfectly – they need mental treatment.
If you are suffering from it, let us know. We have foolproof cure that no scientist living in western materialistic culture can discover.
With love and peace
Admin
So instead of using an actual reference method, you choose to not even list where you get your data so everyone can take it at face value. I see how it is. You should be sued for PLAGIARISM.
I’m sorry, but your credibility is ruined the moment you start bashing (or targeting) a certain group of people. I can not believe you think you come across as “loving” when you use HATE. “Homo-lovers?” How would you like it if someone started posting things targeting old fat white men. Oh, but not just one person, how about everybody start hating old fat white men. HOW WOULD THAT MAKE YOU FEEL?!
I know you would HATE it if I compared Gay rights to race rights, but you have to admit, there are similarities. I am sure you will argue race cannot be changed……have you HEARD of Michael Jackson? Both groups of people have been harassed, beaten and even killed. I know you claim to live by the path of Yoga, but do you really think posting this garbage does not spread hate instead of love? I think you need to take a hard look at what you “say” you stand for and what you really do stand for. From everything I have read about you, all you do is spread hate. This in no way makes a positive impact on the world. All I ask is you say who you are and quit lying!
I noticed you ignored almost all of my points about the 73% figure. I never said WSW had ANYTHING to do with MSM. By the way, I found your 73%……….looks like you perverted it a little bit! All that statistic said was: In 2004, males accounted for 73% of all HIV/AIDS cases among adults and adolescents. So did you mean to say that 100% of men with HIV/AIDS are gay??? Does that mean that all the African men suffering from AIDS are suffering from homosexuality too? I REALLY HOPE EVERYONE LOOKS AT THIS LINK AND SCROLLS DOWN TO SEE WHERE AGNIVEER PERVERTED THE DATA. Shame on you! SHAME SHAME SHAME.
http://www.hivinfosource.org/hivis/hivbasics/demographics/ <————Click here and never take anything agniveer says seriously EVER again!
Did you know that "gay-clinics" don't actually work? Just sayin'
It's because of people like YOU and your brainwashed followers we lost at least 6 young people this last September.
My dearest angry brother/sister.
Please cool down. Anger is not good for health.
1. This was not a technical paper that one uses a harvard citation style. However all points are based on well-established facts. Even pro-gay activists do not deny them today. They simply interpret it in different manner. In fact they feel offended when one says that homosexuality is a compulsion. They are proud to have made this CHOICE. What you are representing is the gay movement of the eighties. Please welcome to 2nd decade of 21st century where it is more of a matter of personal rights.
2. One cannot compare gay rights with race rights. Majority of gays are bisexuals and monogamy is more of an exception among them. So while degree of gayness varies, race cannot vary.
3. Gay clinics cannot work – even we agree to that. No clinic can work unless the source of poison is eradicated from process of thinking. Do you think hair dryer will work when you are walking in heavy rains? You will need an umbrella first. Western culture is obsessed with sex, sex and sex. And conservative ones take repression to abnormal levels. Unless this cause is addressed, smoking cigar on a gunpowder hill will lead to blasts for obvious reasons.
Only Patanjal Yoga comprising Yam and Niyam can work. Refer http://agniveer.com/2812/guide-to-extreme-happiness/ and http://agniveer.com/2715/vedic-worship/
Basically search for ‘Yam’ in search box and read all the articles to understand what it is all about.
4. Thanks for making is correct the typo in presenting the facts. Because this led up to review the latest statistics and the facts are even more alarming. It shows that MSM is greatest cause of AIDS today. And even the AIDS growth due to hetersexuality is primarily because of sins of MSM lovers. 80% of victim women face AIDS due to sins of their partners. And males get AIDS almost exclusively from males and not from women. So as defender of women rights, we all should call of strongest restrictions on homosexuality.
5. Again, we never claimed that we should HATE homosexuals. You are forcing your own thoughts into our writing. We, on contrary, believe that homosexuals deserve treatment and sympathy more that any patient of cholera, tuberculosis, malaria, aids etc.
Please contact Baba Ramdev on Yogic treatment of homosexuality. Only if that also does not work, come to us and we shall provide alternative remedies.
1. I am glad you understand the feelings of people you so clearly have no understanding of so well. For you information the gay community hasn’t moved from fighting for truth and understanding to lying about the cause of the very thing the represent.
2. Not sure how you can say that the majority of gays are bisexuals when it is no doubt a third and separate sexual orientation. Or if you wish to consider the Kinsey Scale and think of sexual orientation as a continuum then most heterosexuals are to some extent bisexuals too. Race can not vary, is that a joke, every heard of an interracial partnership. What is the child of such a relationship if not a variance of race.
3. Wait didnt you just say homosexuality was a choice us gays are proud to have made. Is this choice our poison? Is our willing and calculated decision to become a homosexual something which we detest and need your help to be rid of? think about what you’re saying mate.
4. Let’s suppose us gays are more likely to get aids and are as a result a danger to women because we will pass the disease onto them as you suggest, as much sense as that makes; should we be banned? The elderly are far more prone to illnesses than the majority of the population and regularly pass viruses like the flu onto other members of society, does this mean they should be banned in your eyes? I doubt it.
5. Yeah i get what what you’re saying here. You think that we are so disgusted by our sexual attractions that we surely must seek therapy but are proud of our “choice” to be homosexuals because we apparently stopped fighting for the truth in the eighties (i am glad that you told that pro-gay activist what he fights for these days, he was obviously confused). Also I am glad that you believe we should be given such sympathy and therapy for a supposedly willing choice and that your sympathy towards us would stretch so far as to impose the “strongest restrictions” on us to protect a gender we are not attracted to from our prescribed social promiscuity, and any STI’s resulting therefrom, specifically HIV/AIDS, which was apparently formerly exclusive to the gay community until we men attracted to men started having sex with women just for the kick of spreading the virus; and this consensual sex is somehow a breach of women’s rights. I’m glad we got that cleared up wouldn’t have wanted anyone to get confused.
@This is just offensive: Would not say much but “one has to understand the definition of love”
What is love for you(is love that someone does not interfere in the way of your beliefs?). Does one need to indulge in sex if one is in love? And why do we term someone as homo and some as straight… isn’t it because of their sexual preference ONLY?
Sex is for creating progeny (i.e. the ONLY upright reason) and Agniveer is right when he says the “enjoyment factor” is only in the mind. When child sees a sexually oriented material, he/she would not understand it and most certainly would not be aroused (doesn’t matter if he/she is GOING to become a homo or straight)
The preference would not build as long as there is stimulus from the outside (by the time he/she grows up),
when a child is born he/she is always engrossed in his/her own world, once he/she grow a little she enjoys the company of the same sex(not being homo), then later on they cherish the company of the opposite sex , isn’t it the evolving of the human thought the lifetime? i.e where he/she finds solace and comfort during diff stages of life.
as long as one does not understand that the mind has a life of its own, he/she could not understand that the entire body and its entities can be controlled, till then people will just try to find the answers for the things that happen to and come up with theories, which otherwise have no relevance, in the light of the knowledge of an individual who has reached the state of a mastered mind.
As long as people do not come face to face with the Vedic knowledge of the “self” such anomalies are bound to happen coz by nature humans are always seeking happiness and who finds “temporary”(all human without proper education of self will definitely have changes in their affiliations after a period of time no matter what!!) happiness where is just a matter of his/her surroundings and the stimulus (external) and the pervious and current Samskars
Your facts are about as solid and convincing as the ones that support that the Holocaust being a lie.
And the people who believe this bull crap are just as bias and ignorant as the ones that think that Germany was the true victim in WWII
What a load of BS
scientific studies prove that animal perform and conduct various homosexual behaviors ranging from simple sexual male to male contact up to almost a full monogamous relationship with raising offspring
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
about HIV you are a lier that distorts the truth and reality: nobody knows where it originated from and the only reason why it affects the homosexual community in larger percentages is because of their sexual lifestyle which is more free and the reason why it affects females is cause today’s heterosexual sexual lifestyle is not much different. Now from this fact to blaming homosexuals on endangering the society in the way you blame them is preposterous.
If people don’t want to get HIV they should use condoms. PERIOD.
And if they DO get HIV they can only blame themselves.
Further more HIV is only 1 example of a disease, there are dozens of Sexually transmitted diseases which infect and risk society, many of them are transmitted by heterosexuals and infect them much more then they do homosexuals.
The truth is that you are a HATER you can’t accept the fact that it has nothing to do with homosexuality. Liberalism and free sex, something which is promoted to some extent by the media, is the reason for all the “sex” amongst teenagers which results in the transition of STD’s and that is what needs to be educated to the public not you pathetic homophobia.
Homosexuality was not proven inborn, BUT IT WASN’T PROVEN OTHERWISE, so how can you even claim your idiotic claims? the fact is that the matter is overemphasized because of people like you who follow the ancient Taboo originated by the judeo-christian faith, a Taboo which is a load of crap.
In ALL humanities ancient cultures, long long before the plagues of Christianity and Islam took over large portions of our world, homosexuality was not an issue, it was performed and it was OK to some extents, sometimes up to full acceptances. Today such behavior is normal in many far eastren cultures like Thailand. The only reason it is an issue today is because of people like you that invent fears around it basing your claims on books that say the world was created in 6 days. LOL.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#History
If you want an example that would strengthen something against you, then I am a homosexual ever since I remember my sexuality developing in the early years of 10-14. I always found myself attracted to the MALE body and not the female body. That is my reality. I can love any person, it doesn’t matter male or female, cause I appropriate and love human beings as they are, but I always look at and prefer males then females. That is something I cannot change and something people like you should face and stop spreading evil propaganda against.
The SC of India states that the right to life under Article 21 of the constitution of India does not just include the mere right to animal existence, but includes all that pertaining to human dignity. That is the fundamental right guaranteed by the constitution of India, the law of the land.
Also, whether animals indulge in sex with the same sexual species is not an issue here. They can do whatever they want. What I do in the privacy of my existence, provided that it does not cause harm, is my own business. Your post here is immature and a proof of your restrained and limited intellect.
The 377 judgment states that a person has rights guaranteed under the constitution and these rights cannot be violated against just because public morality is against it. If that was the case, there’s a public morality here against your thread here and for that, u should be gagged, bounded, locked away in the darkness of a murky dungeon to never see the light of the day ever again. The principle is, if you are willing too violate someone’s rights over your twisted sense of morality, then there is always someone else to violate yours.
umm you’re a dumbass buddy
you’re saying that homosexuality is no longer a psychiatric or mental disorder because of opinion but did you ever stop to think what made it a mental disorder in the first place. You said it yourself nobody could prove where homosexuality comes from so what gives the good people at APA the right to just chuck it on the list when they have no idea what they’re talking about.
Also you’re about 5 years out of date. Scientists at the university of Padova in Italy showed conclusively that homosexuality in males is caused either solely by an aspect of the X chromosome passed down from through the maternal lineage or a combination of this and hormonal influences in the womb. This ‘gay gene’ not only causes homosexuality in males but a sort of hyper-heterosexuality in females and as a result there are more children born of the gay man’s maternal female relatives.
Its easy for you to sit at home on your high horse and make disgusting analogies between homosexuals and murderers and rapists and tell the world’s leading psychiatrists that they’re findings are misled but don’t expect people to agree with your blatant lies.
Even without the conclusive evidence of the team from the University of Padova I don’t see you coming up with any studies proving that homosexuality isn’t natural. Remember a little thing called innocent until proven guilty, the basis of a fair and just society, you cant just throw that out the window because you don’t like gays.
There is one point you made that I’ll agree with though, that homosexuality is abnormal. Abnormality is nothing more than than the quality of being outside the majority, because normalcy is whatever and however the majority is. So yeah being gays not normal but i got news for ya buddy, neither is being white, or black, or hispanic, or American, or blonde haired. You wanna be normal, go be a chinese woman.
“This was not a technical paper that one uses a harvard citation style. However all points are based on well-established facts. Even pro-gay activists do not deny them today. They simply interpret it in different manner. In fact they feel offended when one says that homosexuality is a compulsion. They are proud to have made this CHOICE. What you are representing is the gay movement of the eighties. Please welcome to 2nd decade of 21st century where it is more of a matter of personal rights.” I’m not sure i’m willing to take the word of an obviously anti-gay heterosexual on how I or any other gay person feel when people tell me homosexuality is a compulsion because you are obviously in a much more appropriate position to comment on it than someone who is in the position themselves. I’m not offended by people understanding homosexuality and realising it isn’t something you can decide it is just how you are, I am offended by bigoted ignoramuses like you. Why would anyone choose to have to put up with all these ungrounded lies?
So to conclude, you sir are an asshole and shouldn’t pretend to understand something toward which you obviously have a deep set hatred. You can sit at home ignoring the facts and preaching this bullshit if you want but don’t tell us it is supported by evidence or that it is the only logical conclusion to draw because some people might, god forbid, be dumb enough to take the word of someone like you.
If you don’t believe me thats fine, I don’t expect you to take my word for it, but being gay myself i stand in a much better position to pass judgement but i am still no scientist. So i urge you to read this article from a reputable organisation which references a multiplicity of scientific research and reflects accurately and unbiasedly the truth about homosexuality.
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=29692&cn=10
and before you get all up in arms saying it is from a mental help site I will have you know that it is discussing its non-belonging in the realm of mental disorders in no uncertain terms
I think agniveer is only obsessed with vedic literature and India’s glorious ancient past. Who denies the ancient glorious age of Indian history. But dear, every glory has to fade sometime, the sooner you understand this the better. Now is the age of science and technology and accept what vedas say in agreement with science and proven facts. Rest ignore!!!!!!! How many non-hindu scientists had converted to vedic dharma coz of their research or accepted vedas to be infallible?? Dont try to fight the moonlight and bend the facts to accomodate the cast you build up based on your whims and fancies derived from your obsessive drive of ‘parental religion superiority syndrome’ and biasness towards all theories going against vedic literature. Try to self introspect a little.
Good sshama you asked this question the most brilliant Muslim of India APJ Abdul Kalam Azad has accepted Hinduism and living Vedic lifestyle (I think you are PAKIS otherwise you won’t ask this stupid question) read the book COSMOS by Carl Sagan it says that Hindus scriptures are only correct in regard of creation rest all are bullshit regarding creation (like Koran and Bible). Einstein was the greatest supporter of Hindus and Hindu scripture Einstein said because of Hindus the world has learned to count (great discoveries in the field of mathematics) and many more reputed scientist have supported Hinduism. The Vedas will be there till the end of creation.
@Sshama : a Little introspection for you
@sameer: ‘most brilliant Muslim of India APJ Abdul Kalam Azad has accepted Hinduism and living Vedic lifestyle’
Ohh really…and when did APJ kalam converted to hinduism. And what research he did which convinced him to assert that vedas are infallible and from God. This is what the problem with you guys. You are far too obsessed with the feeling that some scientists should convert to hinduism. But alas destiny has something different to store. Anyways I wasnt speaking about the respect for vedas,but was talking bout the research by scientists , doctors , phd holders etc in particular field and finding it compatible with vedas.
‘I think you are PAKIS’
Why pakis dont have the right to question???
‘read the book COSMOS by Carl Sagan’
Who is carl sagan. Have heard for the first time. And what is the research he did and which verse of which vedas did he find resemblence with the research???? There are many scientists who respect religious books. But that doesnt mean they have done research on that.
rest all are bullshit regarding creation (like Koran and Bible).
As far as Quran is concerned a dozen of scientists have researched and accepted Quran to be divine and infallible e.g. Keith moore and even many of them converted to Islam e.g. Maurice bucaille. And still many are researching. Just google or youtube ‘sceintists converted/research to islam’ and compare with ‘sceintists converted/research to hinduism’ you will come to know the striking comparative difference. It was funny though that when I search ‘scientists converted to hinduism’ and google showing scientists conversions to Islam.
‘Einstein was the greatest supporter of Hindus and Hindu scripture ‘
Supporting in a goodwill attitude is a different issue and actual research in a particular field by specialists is a different issue.
Einstein also supported Quran and Islamic moral rules but does that mean he converted to Islam or did got convinced by some research. Read what Einstein says about quran.
“Quran is not a book of algebra or geometry but is a collection of rules which guides human beings to the right way, the way which the greatest philosophers are unable to decline it”
There are many great men who spoke good about Quran but I am not talking about goodwill talks but actual researches and finding a strking resemblence in the holy scripture.There are many who spoke good about Quran. Read the following:
2) Will Dorant (born in 1885):
Religious treatments in Quran contain worldly treatment too and all of its affairs are sent from Allah by revelation. Quran contains rules such as: good manners, healthiness, marriage, divorce, treatments with children and animals and slaves, commercials, politics, unlawful profit, debt, contracts, recommendations, industrial affairs, wealth, amercments and punishments and war and peace. Quran creates simple beliefs in simple souls, which are free from bad traditions and worship of idols. Quran has established principles of union discipline and social unity between Moslems.
3) Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1721):
Quran takes the responsibility of man prosperity alone. I hope it will not be too late that time which I can unite all the scholars of all the countries together and establish a monotone society based on principles of Quran only which will guide people to prosperity.
4) Gandhi (1869-1948):
By learning Quran, every body will achieve revelation secrets and religion knowledge. In Quran we don t see anything which allows using obligation to change others religion. This sacred book says in the simplest way: there is no obligation in religion.
5) Dr. Johan Wolfgang Von Goethe (German Poet): In 1832 said,
for long years, priests prevented us understanding Quran realities and greatness of its bringer, but by improvement of sciences this book will take human attention to it and become axis of thoughts.
6) Lion Tolstue (Russian philosopher):
Quran contains clear realties and tenets and human beings can utilize it generally.
7) Bernard Shaw (English philosopher):
He foretells that Europe will accept religion and book of Mohammad (PBUH).
DR. Marks (1818-1883):
Quran contains all divine messages, which exist in all sacred books for all nations. There are verses in Quran that relates to learning science and thinking and discussing and training and I confess that this firm book has corrected many of the man mistakes.
9) Dr Shebly Shommyel (1853-1917) (Special student of Darvin):
Prophet of Islam took attentions of human being wisdom towards him by Quran eloquence and made them unconscious against his book.
10) Charles Francis (American professor):
Bible is a book which no one knows in America but Quran is a book which every Moslim knows and it is not a lie. But it should be mentioned that being unaware of bible is a good luck for religion.
11) P.H Corbin (France contemporary Islam knower):
If Mohammad (PBUH) thought was superstitious and Quran was not revelation, he never dared to invite man to science. No thought and no person has invited human beings to science as Mohammad did. As we see that it has talked about science 950 times.
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52869
Read about some great men about Gita:
“The Bhagavad-Gita has a profound influence on the spirit of mankind by its devotion to God which is manifested by actions.” ~ Dr. Albert Schweizer
“The Bhagavad-Gita is a true scripture of the human race a living creation rather than a book, with a new message for every age and a new meaning for every civilization.” ~ Rishi Aurobindo
“The idea that man is like unto an inverted tree seems to have been current in by gone ages. The link with Vedic conceptions is provided by Plato in his Timaeus in which it states…” behold we are not an earthly but a heavenly plant.” ~ Carl Jung
“When doubts haunt me, when disappointments stare me in the face, and I see not one ray of hope on the horizon, I turn to Bhagavad-Gita and find a verse to comfort me; and I immediately begin to smile in the midst of overwhelming sorrow. Those who meditate on the Gita will derive fresh joy and new meanings from it every day.”
~ Mahatma Gandhi
“From a clear knowledge of the Bhagavad-Gita all the goals of human existence become fulfilled. Bhagavad-Gita is the manifest quintessence of all the teachings of the Vedic scriptures.” ~ Adi Sankara
Many great people told good things about holy scriptures but we are talking about the research which leads the scientists to accept the divinity in holy scriptures which is a no nonsense business.
Theres hardly any scientists or professors or writers who converted to hinduism after research and study. But there are many scientists or writers or professors or doctors (not to mention ppl from other fields) who embraced Islam after research and study. Some of them are:
1. Leopold Weiss (alias Muhammad Asad) (1900 – 1992)
2. Dr. Jeffrey Lang (American professor)
3. Gary Miller (Canadian Doctor and University Prof.) (Alias Abdul Ahad Omar)
4. Dr. Maurice Bucaille (French Doctor) (1920-1998)
5. Dr. Laurence B. Brown (American Doctor)
6. Martin Lings (January 24, 1909 – May 12, 2005
7. Lisa Spray – American author and convert to Islam
8. Dr. Murad Wilfried Hofmann
“It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Quran about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from Allah, or Allah, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God or Allah.” Professor Keith Moore, one of the world’s prominent scientists of anatomy and embryology. University of Toronto, Canada]
I think it seems to me very, very mysterious, almost unbelievable. I really think if what you have said is true, [Professor Siaveda , He is also one of the most famous scientists in the world.]
Professor William W. Hay is one of the best known marine scientists in the United States. satellite photography and emote-sensing techniques. Professor Hay replied: I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scripture of the Holy Quran, and I have no way of knowing where they would come from, but I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and that this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages. Professor Hay: Well, I would think it must be the divine being!
[Professor Yushudi Kusan: Director of the Tokyo Observatory] I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in [the] Quran, and for us the modern astronomers have been studying very small pieces of the universe. We’ve concentrated our efforts for understanding of [a] very small part. Because by using telescopes, we can see only very few parts [of] the sky without thinking [about the] whole universe. So, by reading [the] Quran and by answering to the questions, I think I can find my future way for investigation of the universe.”
[Professor Alfred Kroner who is one of the world’s most famous geologists] “Thinking about many of these questions and thinking where Muhammad came from, he was after all a bedouin. I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe,
because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case. Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics 1400 years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind for instance that the earth and the heavens had the same origin, or many others of the questions that we have discussed here.
[Dr. T.V.N. Persaud is a Professor of Anatomy and Head of the Department of Anatomy, and a professor of Pediatrics and Child Health, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. He is the author or editor of 25 books, and has published over 181 scientific papers. In 1991, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada.]
“It seems to me that Muhammad was a very ordinary man. He could not read or write. In fact, he was illiterate. We are talking about 1400 years ago. You have someone who was illiterate making profound pronouncement
and statements and are amazingly accurate about scientific nature. I personally cannot see how this could be mere chance. There are too many accuracy’s and, like Dr. Moore, I have no difficulty in my mind in concerning that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which led him to these statements.”
Joe Leigh Simpson, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology at the North Western University in Chicago in the United States of America. Professor Simpson said: It follows, I think, that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion, but in fact religion can guide science by adding revelation to some traditional scientific approaches. That there exists statements in the Quran shown by science to be valid, which supports knowledge in the Quran having been derived from Allah
[Professor Palmer a scientist from the U.S.] We need research into the history of early Middle Eastern oral traditions to know whether in fact such historical events have been reported. If there is no such record, it strengthens the belief that Allah transmitted through Muhammad bits of his knowledge that we have only discovered for ourselves in recent times. We look forward to a continuing dialogue on the topic of science in the Quran in the context of geology. Thank you very much.
[Professor Tagata Tagasone, formerly Head of the Department of Anatomy and Embryology at the University of Shiang Mai in Thailand. He is now the Dean of the College of the Medicine at the University.]
From my studies and from what I have learned throughout this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Quran 1400 years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means. Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a messenger who relayed this truth which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the One Who is an Eligible Creator. This Creator must
be Allah, or Allah. Therefore, I think this is the time to say ‘Laa ilaaha illallah’, that there is no Allah to worship except Allah, ‘Muhammad Rasool Allah’, Muhammad is messenger of Allah…
[Professor Armstrong, Scientist works at NASA] I am impressed that how remarkably some of the ancient writings seem to correspond to modern and recent Astronomy. There may well have to be something beyond what we understand as ordinary human experience to account for the writings that we have seen.
[Professor Durga Rao] It is difficult to imagine that this type of knowledge was existing at that time, around 1400 years back. May be some of the things they have simple idea about, but do describe those things in great detail is very difficult. So, this is definitely not a simple human knowledge.
“Four years after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born at Mecca, in Arabia the man who, of all men exercised the greatest influence upon the human race . . . Mohammed . . . ” [John William Draper, M.D., L.L.D., A History of the Intellectual Development of Europe, London 1875, Vol.1, pp.329-330]
Dr. Gerald C. Goeringer is Course Director and Associate Professor of Medical Embryology at the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington, DC, USA. During the Eighth Saudi Medical Conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Professor Goeringer stated the following in the presentation of his research paper:
“In a relatively few aayahs (Quranic verses) is contained a rather comprehensive description of human development from the time of commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such distinct and complete record of human development, such as classification, terminology, and description, existed previously. In most, if not all, instances, this description antedates by many centuries the recording of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal development recorded in the traditional scientific literature.”
Dr. E. Marshall Johnson is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Developmental Biology at Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA. There, for 22 years he was Professor of Anatomy, the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy, and the Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute. He was also the President of the Teratology Society. He has authored more than 200 publications. In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Johnson said in the presentation of his research paper:
[Summary] “The Quran describes not only the development of external form, but emphasizes also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized by contemporary science.”
Also he said: “As a scientist, I can only deal with things which I can specifically see. I can understand embryology and developmental biology. I can understand the words that are translated to me from the Quran. As I gave the example before, if I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I knew today and describing things, I could not describe the things which were described. I see no evidence for the fact to refute the concept that this individual, Muhammad, had to be developing this information from some place. So I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved in what he was able to write.”
I can give you a hundred quotes from world famous ppl about Quran but the above quotes are the tetimonies of world famous scientists who approached Quran from scientific research point of view.
Please show me how many scientists acknowledged vedas to be from divine source and what research they did in vedas and also let me know how many converted to hinduism.
‘The Vedas will be there till the end of creation.’
So whats the big deal. All books will remain but the question is whether in pure form or not??
And if you doubt any part of what We have, bestowed from on high, step by step, upon Our servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah of similar merit, and call upon any other than God to bear witness for you -if what you say is true! And if you cannot do it-and most certainly you cannot do it-then be conscious of the fire whose fuel is human beings and stones which awaits all who deny the truth! (QURAN 2:23,24)
@sshma : first of all you are commenting on the wrong thread.
anyways what did you mean pure form..
for you enlightened brain.. here is some tonic(dont start with pure and all that mullah mentality)
it is proved that the quran today is not the original one in content and context both..either you are blind or you are pretending to be blind
http://agniveer.com/3118/miracle-islam/#comment-13905
Sshama dear Muslims were caught lying about Science in Islam first they told Neil Armstrong heard Azan in moon which he himself clarified that muslims are lying in his name. Many astronomical and medical discoveries were already done by Romans and Greeks before the advent of Mohammad so their mention is nothing amazing in Koran like the Embryo internal stage it was already discovered by Greek and Romans so nothing great about that.
Sshama you talk about science but don’t know about Carl Sagan (LOL) he is great astrophysicist google it and many websites regarding him he said that Hinduism is the only religion were creation is clearly stated unlike Koran and Bible and APJ Abdul kalam read his biography you will come to know if he is following Hinduism or Islam he is strictly following Brahmacharya, vegetarian diet and his love to quote from Vedas and Gita and his love for Music and Veena.
Sshama you said out of goodwill they are praising Vedas LOL nobody in goodwill will say that Vedas and Gita are greatest gifts to Humanity or tell that Creation theories are only correct given in Hindu Scriptures Einstein was never supporter of Abrahmic religions like Christianity and Islam. Einstein later in his life started to gain interest in Hinduism he used to write letters and ask questions to Mahatma Gandhi. You asked me to show convert of Scientist to Hinduism but you yourself never mentioned of scientist who converted to Islam all the examples you gave were doctors and professors not scientist. I will you some quotes of greatest scientist where they clearly say Hindus Scriptures is the greatest scriptures in world and creation theories are only correctly given in Hindu Scriptures see below.
Niels Bohr, (1885-1962) Danish nuclear physicist who developed the Bohr model of the atom. His received the Nobel Prize in physics in 1922, for his theory of atomic structure
I go into the Upanishads to ask questions.
Dr. Carl Sagan, (1934-1996) famous astrophysicist.
The Hindu religion is the only one of the world’s great faiths dedicated to the idea that the Cosmos itself undergoes an immense, indeed an infinite, number of deaths and rebirths. It is the only religion in which the time scales correspond, to those of modern scientific cosmology. Its cycles run from our ordinary day and night to a day and night of Brahma, 8.64 billion years long. Longer than the age of the Earth or the Sun and about half the time since the Big Bang. And there are much longer time scales still.
The most elegant and sublime of these is a representation of the creation of the universe at the beginning of each cosmic cycle, a motif known as the cosmic dance of Lord Shiva. The god, called in this manifestation Nataraja, the Dance King. In the upper right hand is a drum whose sound is the sound of creation. In the upper left hand is a tongue of flame, a reminder that the universe, now newly created, with billions of years from now will be utterly destroyed.
A millennium before Europeans were willing to divest themselves of the Biblical idea that the world was a few thousand years old, the Mayans were thinking of millions and the Hindus billions.
Julius Robert Oppenheimer (1904-1967) Scientist, philosopher, bohemian, and radical. A theoretical physicist and the Supervising Scientist for the Manhattan Project, the developer of the atomic bomb. Graduating from Harvard University, he traveled to Cambridge University to study at the Cavendish Laboratory.
Access to the Vedas is the greatest privilege this century may claim over all previous centuries.
The general notions about human understanding… which are illustrated by discoveries in atomic physics are not in the nature of things wholly unfamiliar, wholly unheard of or new. Even in our own culture they have a history, and in Buddhist and Hindu thought a more considerable and central place. What we shall find [in modern physics] is an exemplification, an encouragement, and a refinement of old wisdom.
The juxtaposition of Western civilization’s most terrifying scientific achievement with the most dazzling description of the mystical experience given to us by the Bhagavad Gita, India’s greatest literary monument.
Muhammad Dara Shikoh (1627-1658 AD) the favorite Sufi son of Moghul emperor, Shah Jehan.
After gradual research; I have come to the conclusion that long before all heavenly books, God had revealed to the Hindus, through the Rishis of yore, of whom Brahma was the Chief, His four books of knowledge, the Rig Veda, the Yajur Veda, the Sama Veda and the Atharva Veda.The Quran itself made veiled references to the Upanishads as the first heavenly book and the fountainhead of the ocean of monotheism.
Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) an author, essayist, lecturer, philosopher, Unitarian minister who lectured on theology at Harvard University.
I owed a magnificent day to the Bhagavad-Gita. It was as if an empire spoke to us, nothing small or unworthy, but large, serene, consistent, the voice of an old intelligence which in another age and climate had pondered and thus disposed of the same questions which exercise us.
It is sublime as night and a breathless ocean. It contains every religious sentiment, all the grand ethics which visit in turn each noble poetic mind….
The Indian teaching, through its clouds of legends, has yet a simple and grand religion, like a queenly countenance seen through a rich veil. It teaches to speak truth, love others, and to dispose trifles. The East is grand – and makes Europe appear the land of trifles. …all is soul and the soul is Vishnu .
All science is transcendental or else passes away. Botany is now acquiring the right theory – the avatars of Brahman will presently be the text-books of natural history.
Einstein quotes
“When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous,” said Albert Einstein.
See science in Vedas given by GREATEST NASA scientists in this link
http://sanatandharma.tripod.com/
@Sameer : Bro, seemingly Mr/Ms Sshama is one intelligent fellow.let just as him/her to prove that Quran is the word of God despite the fact that it has been proved that the modern quran is not even the same as told by Muhammad there is no way to link the moder quran to the muhammad
So a humble request here, we would not want to get into what some particular individual thinks about a religion or text.
@sameer: ‘Sshama dear Muslims were caught lying about Science in Islam first they told Neil Armstrong ‘
Maybe mistake of the muslims can be justified coz many western scientists are converting to Islam. But on what basis is the obsession of hindus when they try desperately to attach western scientists names to hinduism, specially when not a single western scientist converted to hinduism.
‘Many astronomical and medical discoveries were already done by Romans and Greeks before the advent of Mohammad so their mention is nothing amazing in Koran like the Embryo internal stage it was already discovered by Greek and Romans so nothing great about that’
And how brilliant that you dont have any references from roman and greek literature to back your claim. And how brilliant that the scientists have asserted the research based on Quranic verses and not roman and greek literature myths, and they are surprised as how the verses are present in the Quran and nsync with their scientific researches, but again surprising that it doesnt surprise you and ‘nothing great’ for you. And how brilliant that the indusrial revolution and renaissance came after the transfer of Quranic knowledge to west when roman and greek literature were present in the world 1000s of years before the advent of Islam.
‘Embryo internal stage it was already discovered by Greek and Romans so nothing great about that’
I hope you are not out of your mind. I told you before that I am talking about the modern researches and not just goodwill praises like neil bohr and einstein. The researches about embryonic development detailed stages are based on microscopic observations, and I never knew that roman and greeks used microscopes. Otherwise the scientists would had not been astonished and converted to Islam or do you mean to say that they need education from you that greek and roman sciences were the sources of Quranic verses?
‘Sshama you talk about science but don’t know about Carl Sagan (LOL) he is great astrophysicist google it and many websites regarding him he said that Hinduism is the only religion were creation is clearly stated unlike Koran and Bible’
Carl sagan did spoke about bible but not about Quran. I did not find any criticism by Carl sagan about Quran.
As far as Hinduism is concerned he only told that the nataraja statue could be interpreted to assume the age of the universe. So which verse of vedas did he approved by his research. Many famous ppl appreciated Vedas , Bible and Quran coz all the books has something to offer. But only actual modern researches can prove the infallibility of any book. Unlike Vedas and other holy books which consists of ancient science and medicine, Quran is the only book which consists of true facts in excellent compatibility with modern science as per the researches conducted by researchers.
‘Julius Robert Oppenheimer ‘
He is talking about the ancient science and knowledge present in ancient indian books, but does that prove them to be infallible and divine. Nopes!!!!! Can you show me any scholar or specialist who has done research on vedas and proved it to be infallible like how Dr. Maurice bucaille did research on Quran and Bible and proved Quran to be from divine source.
‘Muhammad Dara Shikoh ‘
Who refutes his claim. There is a possibility that vedas had divine source but not the present day vedas. Same is the case with all the books before Quran. Many muslim scholars claim the possibility of Vedas from divine source but ofcourse not the present day Bible or Vedas or Psalms.
‘Ralph Waldo Emerson ‘
Again point to be noted is that he is just giving the ancientness of indian literature and civilisation. Same is the case with egyptian or greek or roman or chinese civilisation. Many civilisations had many things to offer but where does it scientifically prove Vedas to be from God. Many similar claims had been made by many scientists for ancient religions as follows:
1.Through working in harmony with life’s circumstances, Taoist understanding changes what others may percieve as negative into something positive.
Benjamin Hoff (on Taoism)
The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism. – Albert Einstein
Blessed is the match consumed in kindling flame.
Blessed is the flame that burns in the secret fastness of the heart.
Blessed is the heart with strength to stop its beating for honor’s sake.
Blessed is the match consumed in kindling flame.
Hannah Szenes (for judasim)
“that if some lucky men survive the onslaught of the third world war of atomic and hydrogen bombs, then the Sikh religion will be the only means of guiding them ” – Bertrand Russell
I told you before that many scholars told many goodwill points on many religions. But they focused only on positive points and ignored the negative points. Many writers told many negative points too on religions including Islam, but again those were their perosnal opinions. But I am talking about researches by specialists in particular fields by professors , scientists , doctors etc. The researches are not personal opinions but the observations based on modern science and technology. Similarly I can quote innumerable goodwill quotes/ personal opinions by many scholars on Islam, but that doesnt carry much weight. And the list of non-muslim converts embracing Islam is endless too, more than any other religious converts.
I dont agree that science is not present in Vedas, coz science must be present in Vedas like any other ancient book. There were so many ancient civilisations and its obvious that Indians might had copied many literature from other civilisations coz India was the hub of many immigrations and also might had exchanged/imparted knowledge with/to other civilisations. Same will be the case with ancient egyptian , chinese , roman or greek civilisation. So whats the point. If you find some science in these books, does that make them divine or verbatim by god. Ofcourse not.
Show me how many scientists converted to hinduism after doing research in vedas. Not a single. What I quoted for you above were the scientists and professors who converted or accepted Quran to be divine after doing research or submitting research papers. If you mean scientists by astrophysicist / astronomers / cosmologists etc then you can google or youtube you will find innumerable who accepted Isalm but I pupousely selected those people who did research or submitted research papers. I did not come across any scientists who converted to hinduism after he found some information in excellent compatibility with modern science. Dont tell about the quotes/personal opinions we find many goodwill quotes about almost all religions.
@sshama : You did not respond to the available in “Pure form” (i.e verbatim of GOD claim) which is already disproved.Can you respond to that first after watching the video and then we can take up further your illogical methodology of debate.
what are you trying to prove? the only thing one has to prove is how quran is the word of God as claimed,Rest all is just diversion from the actual context of the debates on this form.
i hope you understand what has been clearly conveyed by me here and the comment earlier.
@Sameer: As far as APJ kalam is concerned I never knew that liking for veena makes one hindu. BTW its not your fault, blame it on the unorganized nature of hinduism (the most unorganized religion of the world. The very name ‘hinduism’ doesnt carry any meaning. Hinduism , Hindu , when vedas were written , who brought vedas , what is the age of vedas , who wrote vedas , which is the book of hinduism , how to convert to hinduism , no answers but only confusions.
Even Salman khan and SRK participate in hindu festivals. Does that mean they converted to hinduism? Nopes.
@ssham : thats the difference between animals and humans, human mind knows how to make things organized , it has the capability to question based on logic and be convinced or not. where as animals need exact precise directions to preform an act in civilization.
There is no need to convert to hinduism or anything.. the veda is just a direction to be prefect and civilized.
if one dosent , it their problem.
why are so mad on the word Hinduism?? its just a word!!
The only one thing that the hindu scripture does not answer is the “experience” of GOD(no human can do that BTW) (the way you talk only shows your ignorance, dot just rant, ask the question and you will get the answer)
unlike quran coz the only motivation is islam is material and carnal jannat and nothing else,
the exploitation of the basic flaw of human nature, the fear of the unknown, thats what islam banks on.. and the writers of quran were very well versed with the fears of the desert trodden people
@Sshama Embryology was already developed in Ancient India, Greece, Rome what Koran has said about embryology was already told by Greek Scholar Galen 450 years before Koran came into the picture Koran is only copy paste of what Galen has said, micro organisms like sperms were known to humans long before microscope was invented so there is nothing great about embryology it was already greatly by Hindus see this link below
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-embryology.htm
Einstein also said good about Buddhism there is no great difference between Hinduism and Buddhism both consider ISHWARA as supreme.
APJ kalam plays veena does that make anybody Hindu, did I gave you only the example of veena he also practices Brahmacharya and Vegetarianism and quotas from Gita and Vedas, which religion talks about Brahmacharya and Vegetarianism, so anybody who practices Brahmacharya and Vegetarianism are following Hinduism and in Islam music is banned so playing veena is out of question in islam.
Sshama so you said you gave example of scientists converting to islam you did not name them you only gave examples of some doctor and professors converting to islam, doctors and professors are not scientists.
Even Salman khan and SRK participate in hindu festivals. Does that mean they converted to hinduism? Nopes. (LOL) Salman Khan call himself Half Hindu and SRK has named his son ARYAN.
Sshama I forgot one more thing regarding your comment on Carl Jung that he only talked about Bible LOL does not your Koran tell that Bible was Allah revelations LOL Allah does not know about his creations.
Sorry not Carl Jung but I mean Carl Sagan the scientist
aryavarta: Organization is a sign of civilisation. Humans are organized and not animals. And if you say humans doesnt need organization then you need to take a break. Not only animals even humans need a direction to proceed. And the best direction is shown by Quran. You can challenge any direction of Quran but cant pove it wrong. The best organization designed by God.
‘ You did not respond to the available in “Pure form” (i.e verbatim of GOD claim) which is already disproved’
Do you mean to say Quran is proved to be corrupted. Then you should get a noble prize for this coz you have proved what the world could not prove since past 1400 years. Congrats.
@aryavarta: thnx for your response.
why are so mad on the word Hinduism?? its just a word!!
You cant be serious. Imagine you opened your company and you did not give it a name. Leave about planning the site location , funds , resources , contracts , interiors , employes etc you cannot even think a proper name for the company, then you can imagine how well you can run the company and how many contracts your company can win. That only means hinduism was not a planned religion from God, otherwise how can God be so unorganized that it cannot furnish even a name to HIS religion. That only means hinduism was never a planned religion having a particular goal, but just came into existence coincidentally due to intermixture of rituals and beliefs of various races and tribes living in the subcontinent. When God of hinduism cannot even give a name to his religion how can you expect ppl to even give it a serious thought. But Islam is contrast. It clearly indicates the razor sharp objective of Islam in a particular direction with saturated confidence. If Islam doesnt turn out to be the option I am afraid theres no better option.
@sshma : i think you cant talk logically or Islam is brought down you level of thought and convoluted your capabilities of inferring simple things from the info available.
first of all, i guess you have short term memory loss, we are talking on this form on Veda (not any religion)
(**)Are you seriously comparing Religion to company ??!!
and followers to contracts??
hinduism was not planned religion of God, at least here you are right.. coz planning and deceiving are only tenets of Islam and Allah (makhar) as the one true does not need either.
Why would god create a name for a religion? (refer to **)
and i sure did mean that quran is corrupted coz the earliest dated quran in Yemeni is no where same to the uthaman quran today and it is proved.
(“Then you should get a noble prize for this coz you have proved what the world could not prove since past 1400 years.”
Its not me but the German scientists who have done that already in 1970′s.
you must be living in a Cave)
Go to the below link See the video and comment there, we can then talk about your baseless claims of uncorrupted or whatever from there.
http://agniveer.com/3118/miracle-islam/#comment-13905
@Shama
Shama, its really hillarious to see you defend a religion that doesnt even give you an ounce of respect. Women are half as intelligent, women are stupid, women are equal to dogs and asses, that is all I hear from Islam. If you are happy to have these attributes praising you, then I can only feel pity on you.
You said all the famous scientists of the world converted to islam, right? All the ones you mentioned, I being an engineering student, have never heard of such scientists, maybe these are the scientists they educate you in your school about madarsa. The famous scientists I know are Newton, Galileo, Kepler, Bohr, and as far as I can remember non of them converted to islam. In fact Galileo opposed islam, so what have you got to say about that???? Although Galileo opposed Bible, since Quran is a copy of Bible, it implies he opposed Quran as well in terms of the theory of evolution.
There is a name for hinduism, and its called Vedic Dharma, or Manavta Dharma, meaning the religion of humanity, unlike islam that was copied from Judaism and Christ
Why are you so happy with embrology in Quran??? Embrology can be determined easily by mere observations, what have you got to say about Vedas, which talk of Quantum Physics, Solar System, etc which were not possible to determine by mere observations
Sameer: ‘Embryology was already developed in Ancient India, Greece, Rome what Koran has said about embryology was already told by Greek Scholar Galen 450 years ‘
You are already repeating the same sentence. These are just the personal theories and assumptions since long time ago by missionaries , hate mongers and anti-islamic sites without any proofs. For facts refer to published books and well refered university textbooks of Dr. keith moore and Dr. maurice bucaille, and also the recorded acknowledgements of scientists regarding Quranic verses. There are many literature to refute all those baseless claims. Just refer this one site.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/nadeem_embryology.htm
I dont want to discuss on this point further coz we will just revolve round the same point, you believe in personal theories and let me believe in established text books and recorded research statements by reputed scientists/doctors/professors.
‘Koran is only copy paste of what Galen has said’
Why dont you pass on this valuable information to those scientists who praise Quran, poor Galen is being devoid of the dues.
‘Einstein also said good about Buddhism there is no great difference between Hinduism and Buddhism ‘
Oh is that so, well I was thinking buddhism and jainism were revolutionary religious movements against vedas/hinduism.
‘so anybody who practices Brahmacharya and Vegetarianism are following Hinduism and in Islam music is banned so playing veena is out of question in islam.’
Quiet hilarious….practicing vegetarianism is hinduism??? If a muslim is vegetarian that means he is hindu?? Well will not blame you, blame it on the unorganised nature of hinduism which has strangled the intelligence of its followers to such an extent that even the invention of zero owes a lot to the principles of Islam. Its ok, not your fault.
‘APJ kalam plays veena does that make anybody Hindu’
Hilarious again….well think about A.R. Rehman.
‘Salman Khan call himself Half Hindu and SRK has named his son ARYAN.’
Now its the limit of desperation.
Seems I will discontinue here with you, coz your comments not worth responding.
@Aryavarta: ‘we are talking on this form on Veda (not any religion)’
When did we agree that the topic is strictly on vedas?
‘Are you seriously comparing Religion to company ??!!
and followers to contracts??’
Yes.
‘hinduism was not planned religion of God, at least here you are right’
So you finally agreed.
‘coz planning and deceiving are only tenets of Islam and Allah (makhar) as the one true does not need either’
Out of context.
‘Why would god create a name for a religion?’
To show its importance and instruct the mankind to follow this religion to attain salvation. Simple isnt it!!!
‘and i sure did mean that quran is corrupted coz the earliest dated quran in Yemeni is no where same to the uthaman quran today and it is proved.’
Breaking news!!
@Vik: ‘its really hillarious to see you defend a religion that doesnt even give you an ounce of respect.’
Hillarious illusion.
‘Women are half as intelligent, women are stupid, women are equal to dogs and asses, that is all I hear from Islam.’
I hear something else from Islam.
‘All the ones you mentioned, I being an engineering student, have never heard of such scientists, maybe these are the scientists they educate you in your school about madarsa.’
Then its time for you to come out of the well.
‘The famous scientists I know are Newton, Galileo, Kepler, Bohr, and as far as I can remember non of them converted to islam’
Poor guys were struggling to prove Bible wrong, where is the question of reading Quran. Today is the age of globalistaion and just google search and get ready for a shock at the alarming conversions of present day scientists/doctors etc.
‘There is a name for hinduism, and its called Vedic Dharma, or Manavta Dharma, meaning the religion of humanity, unlike islam that was copied from Judaism and Christ’
Alas none of these names mentioned in Vedas. Manavta dharm??? Lolz.
‘what have you got to say about Vedas, which talk of Quantum Physics, Solar System, etc’
And how many scientists researched this from vedas and accepted/converted hinduism.
@Shama
1)illusion???? Why does islam say men and women have equal right, but then forbid muslim women like u from marrying al kitabi non muslim men, but allows muslim men to marry all kitabi women?????????
2)I dont know what you hear from islam, but prophet Mohammad as per hadiths have said women are half as intelligent as men, now its obvious what this means
3)Come out of the well??? I only study the theories and experiments of real famous scientists, they had something novel to share with the world other wise they were not suppose to be famous. Now, the scientists you speak of, I never heard of them, and I feel I know more about science compared to them. I only admire real scientists like Newton, Hooke, Leibniz, Galileo, Bohr, and Einstein for their discoveries, and as far as I can remmember none of them converted to islam. In fact Newton and Einstein were more close to Vedas as opposed to Bible/Quran in terms of their lifestyle.
4)They have proved the Bible wrong. Why do you think Galileo was condemned by many churches for speaking against the Adam Eve stupid story????
5)Vedas do not promote a religion or cult like islam, they promote dharma. Dharma does not mean religion, it is a trait of pious humans. Just like the trait of fire is to burn, the trait of humans should be as per Vedas. Either you are an Arya (good guy) or a Rakshas(bad guy), there is no concept of belivers or non believers. One becomes good as per his good deeds. Nor Vedas force anyone to believe in them. You can still achieve goodness by not believing in God or not considering Vedas to be divine simply by doing good noble things in life. Unlike Quran, even if u are a good human, but u disblieve in Allah or Quran or Mohammad, u born in hell. Now, its obvious that Quran and Islam is a fake religion since they have such stupid guidelines for one to converge into paradise.
6)Many scientists did not learn Sanskrit to understand the pure Vedas, and there were no authentic english translations and unfortunately, the ones available were the ones translated by western idologists which was crap itself. Anyone who would read translations of Griffith, Muller, WIlson, will automatically reject the Vedas, because they were crap translations. The only authentic translations were done by Swami Dayananda
@Sshama Dear LOL you don’t want to debate with me regarding embryology why you have accepted defeat LOL Koran has not copy pasted from Galen and Greek Philosophers see below this two links which shows Galens and Greek Doctors works and theories and its Copy paste in Koranic Suras. Keith Moore and Maurice bucaille are made fun of by other doctors because these Keith Moore and Bucaille have accepted embryo as bubble gum (because Koran refers internal stage of Embryo as Chewed Substance).
http://www.faithfreedom.org/features/debates/zakir-naik-vs-william-campbell/
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/embryo.html
This link exposes the fraud of Keith Moore, Bucaille and fraud of Nadeem Arif Najmi the link which you give
http://www.islam-watch.org/Amarkhan/Miracles-of-Quran-Exposed.htm
dunno, why are we debating with a creature who is half intelligent than us(men)?
@Vik: ‘Why does islam say men and women have equal right, but then forbid muslim women like u from marrying al kitabi non muslim men, but allows muslim men to marry all kitabi women?????????’
Why does Islam gives the obligation of financial maintenance , boarding and lodging of women on men, and why does men are instructed to secure a financial amount for women by paying them mehr and not vice versa. Really too much discrimination against women. Poor muslim women. But you know what, muslim women love this sort of discrimination. No prizes to guess why. Oh but I am sorry that vedas doesnt have any such membership discounts and not to talk about manusmriti.
‘I dont know what you hear from islam, but prophet Mohammad as per hadiths have said women are half as intelligent as men, now its obvious what this means’
But these less intelligent women are very intellligent enough to secure the financial rights for themselves atleast. Poor non muslim women. Just busy in ‘wardrobe malfucntions’ on some stupid ramp shows and then facing hostility back home. Really very intelligent!!!!!
‘I only admire real scientists like Newton, Hooke, Leibniz, Galileo, Bohr, and Einstein for their discoveries, and as far as I can remmember none of them converted to islam’
Why they didnt convert to Islam, is the question better to be answered by themselves. I think you are not aware of Islamic contribution to ‘industrial revolution’ and ‘renaissance’. Galileo learnt from copernicus and copernicus from Arab scientists Al-tussi. Why the european scientists sported the beard fashion. Come on do some self study and try to know the connection.
‘ Why do you think Galileo was condemned by many churches for speaking against the Adam Eve stupid story????’
Galileo spoke against bible and the ‘geocentric theory’. When did he condemn ‘Adam and Eve’ story in Quran?? If Adam and Eve is a stupid story, I wonder which story is reasonable, maybe Ravan and sita flying in the air , Hanuman swallowing Sun , Krishna supplying sarees to draupadi when he himself used to enjoy pornography , Shankar doing head surgery on ganesh , Gandhari giving birth to 100 sons , Hanumans never ending tail , Carpet bombs in wars , magical missile arrows….. blah blah . Just open idiot box and see how you guys making fun of Hinduism….oops sorry….MANAVTA DHARM!!!!!!!!
‘You can still achieve goodness by not believing in God or not considering Vedas to be divine simply by doing good noble things in life’
If you can acheive goodness by not believing God and rejecting Vedas, then I wonder why did poor vedic God have to reveal vedas on first hand when its very purpose is defeated. Or maybe Vedic God needs some lessons in Time management that he revealed a waste book like ‘Vedas’ which doesnt have any purpose coz humans can do good things and acheive moksha without accepting it. Then muslims are on safe side by rejecting Vedas if Vedic God is to decide the accountability, but hindus will be in deep trouble if Quranic God will decide the accountability. So its a win win situation for muslims.
‘Many scientists did not learn Sanskrit to understand the pure Vedas, and there were no authentic english translations and unfortunately, the ones available were the ones translated by western idologists which was crap itself’
Western ideologists translated ‘crap’ into english. A religious book millions years old is no better than ‘crap’ The oldest sanskrit available does not go beyond 1000 AD. Just imagin a million years old book was written only 1000 years ago. A fool will only consider it to be authentically divine. And BTW if these western scholars would not had translated vedas it would had been no more than rubbish in India and would had been extinct by now. Its only coz of muslims and christians that Hinduism got its name and books.
@Sameer: ‘Keith Moore and Bucaille have accepted embryo as bubble gum ‘
‘Keith L. Moore is a professor emeritus in the division of anatomy (department of surgery), former Chair of anatomy from 1974 to 1984[1] and associate dean for Basic Medical Sciences (Faculty of Medicine) at the University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada. He has also worked at the King Abdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. Moreover, he is a founding member of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists (AACA). He was President of the AACA between 1989 and 1991[2]. He is most known for his textbooks on the subjects of anatomy and human embryology.
He has co-written (with professor Arthur F. Dalley II) Clinically Oriented Anatomy, which is the most popular English-language anatomy textbook in the world,[citation needed][dubious – discuss] used by scientists, doctors, physiotherapists and students worldwide. The book is especially popular[who?] because of its ‘blue boxes’ – passages of text on blue background that relate the classical anatomy to real-world concepts in the diagnosis and treatment of human patients. The book has been translated into multiple languages. He also co-wrote (with professor Anne M. R. Agur) Essential Clinical Anatomy.
He converted to Islam as he found a lot of scientific facts on Embryology in Quran
.——-WIKIPEDIA.
‘This textbook on embryology and teratology describes each stage from conception to birth, and details the development of various organs and systems. Particular attention is given to the emergence of birth defects. Moore taught at the University of Toronto; Persaud, at the University of Manitoba. Annotation (c)2003 Book News, Inc., Portland, OR
.———AMAZON.COM
The authors, by virtue of increasing the amount of clinical material, adding new color photography, including more scanning electron micrographs, expanding sections on teratology, and including simplified information on molecular mechanisms, have perhaps set a new standard for teaching embryology to first-year medical students. In a time when medical students are required to digest even more rote facts and are also thrown even earlierinto the clinical fray, this book should serve as a welcome addition to their educational war chest.
———-GOOGLE BOOKS about ‘The human development’
Dr. Maurice bucaille: His book The Bible, The Qu’ran and Science, The Holy Scriptures Examined In The Light Of Modern Knowledge was such a marvelous piece of writing that, in the year 1988, the French Academy awarded him its prize in history
You send me Ali sina link in which he is praising some Dr. Omar Abdul Rehman for refuting Dr. Keith moore. Who is this Omar abdul? How many university oriented textbooks he has authored and how many universities use his book as reference?
You rely on Omar abdul rahman , Galen and greek philosophers and let me refer world’s one of the most leading embryology textbook ‘The developing human’ embryology textbook refered by numerous medical students , practioners and universities.
“If ye realise this not, ask Of those who possess the Message.” (Al- Qur’aan 16:43 & 21:7
It is not Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, and obedience to Allâh, etc.) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers); but Al-Birr is (the quality of) the one who believes in Allâh, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masâkîn (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set slaves free, performs As-Salât, and gives the Zakât, and keep their word whenever they make a promise, and who are patient in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of persecution, hardship, and war. Such are the people of the truth and they are Al-Muttaqûn (the pious).
—————Quran
@Sshama Moore himself said that there are 13 stages of Embryo then why did he support the 4 stages of Embryo in Koran so he himself is contradicting his statement.
http://www.islam-watch.org/Amarkhan/Miracles-of-Quran-Exposed.htm
@Sshama
1)
your justification does not make sense, it still contradicts the law. I am talking about marriage here, why muslim women cannot marry non muslim men, whereas the the other way around is allowed. All the obligations can also be fulfilled by non muslim men. I can show you examples where many men married different religion women and they are keeping them happy, so their example proves you wrong. Islam is a major contradiction.
2)
As per Vedas, women are given greater rights and respect than muslim women. Please read the article “women in Vedas” on this site. Your muslim women arent any less, I know how well they walk on the ramps too, Miss Pakistan, Miss Saudi, and so on, so you should also look at your side as well. But we are not here to judge people and do not judge religion by people. We only judge by their scriptures.
3)
It doesnt matter who learnt what from who, I am talking about conversion here. My question is why did not Newton or Einstein convert to islam, as far as I can remember they were born and died as non muslim, so this proves ur islam to be wrong. If islam was correct, Newton and Einstein would be the first to convert to islam, but why did they not?? Beard theory u gave is nothing more than a joke.
4)
Galileo supported the scientific theory of evolution which strongly contradicts the adam eve story of Quran-Bible. Looks like your research is only done in sips, not full consumption of cups. All these allegations you laid on Ram, Krishna, Hanuman, etc, I told you before, this is a Vedic site, not a modern day hinduism site. Many stories associated with Ram and Krishna are false, and coincidently the ones you mentioned are all false as well. For example, Krishna only had one wife and he was a clean charactered person as depicted in MahaBharat. But Bhagvat Purana depicts him as everything u said. I told you before, we do NOT consider Puranas to be authentic in any way. So we go by the discription in Mahabharat.
Again, you do not know the theory of evolution of Vedas. As per Vedas, thousands of men and women were created asexually since they were the most purest souls due to the deeds of their past lives, and from there these men women married and started the evolution. Unlike Quran which says only one man and woman were made, and they reproduced which led their own children to marry each other, which is considered medically wrong and damaging. So its much easier to beleive that we came from a group of thousands of mothers-fathers, as opposed from one Adam Eve. Adam Eve – Hell – Heaven, good story, please keep these retarded stories to recite to ur children in their bedtimes.
5)
No, I am saying western idologists translated pure essence of God’s wisdom (Vedas) into crap. Converting crap into english translations only appeals to your Quran, which was originally arabic crap and still is. This is why not only agniveer.com, but many other sites like faithfreedom which are non Vedic are also condemning Quran.
What do you have to say about Arya Bhatt, who invented zero that is widely used in muslim countries and christian countries? Did your so called muslims and christians help Arya to invent the zero???????
extinct???? What have you got to say about the Vedic recitation oral practice which is still going on today in southern india???????? This practice begun since inception and its still in practice today?????? Where the pandits orally pass down their verses and cannot even change a single syllable.
It was Swami Dayanand, who restored the correct translations of Vedas, otherwise people like Muller and Griffith would have ruined them.
Lastly, why are Vedas revealed if one does not have to follow them to attain goodness??? This is the biggest proof that Vedas only promote a lifestyle not a cult like islam. Vedas are llike science books or physics books which contain knowledge, if you dont read them, you will miss out on the knowledge, if you read them, you will become smart and you share this knowledge with others and have a appreciating standing in your community. But its not a must that we have to force ourselves to read Vedas or Physics book, its our choice. Even if we choose not to, we can still earn goodness.
@Sameer: ‘Sshama Moore himself said that there are 13 stages of Embryo then why did he support the 4 stages of Embryo in Koran so he himself is contradicting his statement.’
Brilliant discovery. Why dont you write your 13 point agenda embryology theory and publish your own textbook and save the medicine world from wrong information. Afterall its the question of millions of medical students and many universities. Do some social work coz ranting behind the computer screens like Ali sina is not working at all.
@Vik:’your justification does not make sense, it still contradicts the law’
My dear rule is quiet simple. Many facilities are postulated for women but not vice versa and similarly equal number of facilities for men but not vice versa. You dont need to bring exact marks in same subjects to bring total marks equal to other student.
‘ Miss Pakistan, Miss Saudi, and so on, so you should also look at your side as well.’
I never saw any miss paskistan or saudi contestant in any miss world/universe beauty contests. I think you just came from Billoo planet.
‘If islam was correct, Newton and Einstein would be the first to convert to islam, but why did they not?? ‘
If newton and einstein accepts a certain ideology only then that ideology becomes true otherwise not. Good joke!!! I did not tell anytime that Newton or Einstein are the criteria of truth.
‘Beard theory u gave is nothing more than a joke.’
Then you need to take a dip in the history of medieval europe. But start from Italy , florence and venice. You would to come how big joke it is. Instead of copy pasting from some stupid baseless websites I recommend you read some good literature.Also ponder as to why Spain/Portuguese were the first countries to dominate europe and excel in sciences and education. And also what is the significance of first modern universities like Cordova university which later on became the source to all research/education in europe. And also background of renaissance in Italy.
‘Galileo supported the scientific theory of evolution which strongly contradicts the adam eve story of Quran-Bible. Looks like your research is only done in sips, not full consumption of cups.’
My dear there is a lot of difference between Bible stories and Quran stories. Galileo might had rejected this story coz he might had read it from Bible and not Quran.
‘As per Vedas, thousands of men and women were created asexually since they were the most purest souls due to the deeds of their past lives, and from there these men women married and started the evolution.’
please keep these retarded and baseless stories to recite to ur children in their bedtimes.
‘This is why not only agniveer.com, but many other sites like faithfreedom which are non Vedic are also condemning Quran’
Whats the difference. Agniveer etal are just the brain child and copy paste child of faithfreedom.
‘What do you have to say about Arya Bhatt, who invented zero that is widely used in muslim countries and christian countries? Did your so called muslims and christians help Arya to invent the zero???????’
Why did zero became famous only after the advent of Islam. Try to know that. Had it not been for muslims the world would not had known about invention of zero. And what more we can expect from a religion which is anti-develpment and anti-progressive, that even invention of zero was met with dire consequesnces in india that the inventor had to go all the way to Iraq to announce the invention. If Islam is the true religion that doesnt mean other civilisations did not impart or exceled in science or education. Indians had always been famous for their rich culture / beautiful heritage and sharp brains.
‘ What have you got to say about the Vedic recitation oral practice which is still going on today in southern india???????? This practice begun since inception and its still in practice today??????’
That is the very reason to accept vedas to be baseless and a ‘alice in wonderland fairy tale’. A book millions of years old was written first time approximately some 1000 yrs ago and before that it only got transfered from generation to generation verbally. That too this verbal translation was confined among brahmins the higher class, and then accepting such a racist book which was not allowed to be read for other races/castes, and then accepting it to be from a divine source is like making a laughing stock of yourself. Only a fool will believe in this fairy tale.
‘It was Swami Dayanand, who restored the correct translations of Vedas, otherwise people like Muller and Griffith would have ruined them.’
What is the guarantee that dayanand was free from racial prejudice and ancestral pride. Max mueler was a sanskrit scholar and was no less than dayanand who was a religious scholar, specially when the translations in sanskrit is concerned.
‘This is the biggest proof that Vedas only promote a lifestyle not a cult like islam.’
Which lifestyle you are talking about when Vedas is just a substitue book which not necessarily be refered coz we can do goodness even without vedas. So why you need vedas if we dont want to increase our knowledge. Can you run a country by vedas as constitution. Nopes.
‘But its not a must that we have to force ourselves to read Vedas or Physics book, its our choice. ‘
Ageed. Then its no better than a train time pass novel. Whether you read or no doesnt matter except for knowledge. Existence of mankind needs salvation and salvation comes by knowledge of ‘goodness’ and what is good and what is bad is decided by Gods book. But when Vedas is not necessarily book about ‘goodness’ why did God send it on first hand. Should not had God been more helpful and informative by informing mankind about goodness and badness. And then given a choice whether to accept or reject it? By the way who will decide the goodness and badness if Vedas is just a time pass book and its acceptance or rejection doesnt make any difference in committing goodness or badness. If you mean to say people will decide then there will only be an anrchy of confusion coz what is good for me may not be good for you and vice versa.
Suppose you wanna appear for an examination conducted by some university, its the duty of the university to make sure the study material based on the syllabus is available in the market, otherwise it will be unjust on the part of university to conduct the examination and then fail a student if he doesnt bring passing marks. There has to be accountability concept if God is present and for accountability there has to be a hardcore confident yardstick based on which one will pass or fail in his accountability concept. Whether the accountability is a heaven/hell concept or endless cycle of rebirths, without accountability no one can enter heaven or break free the rebirth cycle. And to pass the accountability concept there should be strict/specific dos and donts present in the market without the availability of which there will be chaos in the society and the humanity will never agree on one point . There will always be difference of opinions and that will become the basis of inhumanity on the planet. For example world wars which were totally imperialistic in nature and caused a heavy toll of livfe and property on the planet happened to different ideologies at war. God doesnt want humans to become scientists by expecting them to think freely and propound different theories , but God wants to test the love in people for God, and thats why he gives a particular direction and ask people to follow them and tests who obeys him and who disobeys. The world has not come into existence to test the brain power of people by giving them freedom of choice and then test how many directions and theories they explore and then fight among each other, but to give them one particular direction so that all live on the planet with peace and harmony, but that doesnt mean they are restricted to think, but infact encouraged to think and explore in that particular direction propounded by God, but also be noted that exploration in that particular direction shown by God will only excel mankind to the highest levels of progress and advancement which will not only bring prosperity to the mankind but will also bring them peace of mind. But this will all happen once we bow down our will to that ‘very particular direction’ shown by God in obedience and not showing our backs in rebellion. God had send various books from Vedas to Quran all over the earth, but that doesnt mean since Vedas came in India or Bible in Israel, the people in those lands refuse to submit their egos and follow the old books no matter what. All the people of the earth have to submit to the last book that is also from the same God who had send Vedas or Bible, then only will arrive peace and prosperity in the world. If we go on taking pride in our racial prejudice and parental religion under the garb of freedom of choice and freedom of expression, that will be not be freedom of choice but freedom to rebel. If ‘American concrete institute’ publishes engineering codes from 1920 to 2010 with many revisions in between, does that mean the country in which the 1920 code was published will refuse to accept the latest 2010 code? Answer is No but infact all the countries will accept the latest code coz everyone knows that it is produced by the same ACI institution and it is for all the countries. But that also doesnt mean we disrespect the old revisions from 1920 till date. We will respect all the previous editions but will not follow them coz they are outdated now and will follow only the latest code, but at the same time we will revere and respect the previous codes too.
@Sshama
If there are facilities available for men but not women and vice versa, then islam even contradicts itself further by saying women men have equal rights…..obviously the marriage aspect proves it wrong, besides why would God care who u marry and who u dont?????? I
Have you not seen pakistani beauty contests???? and are you forgetting the fact that Pakistan despite being an islamic country, is the number one country in porn searching??? Now what have you got to say, Pakistan even beat America and other western countries in porn, are you still proud of ur pakistani fellows for earning such glory??? And remmember majority of pakistanis are muslims, so you know what I am trying to say, so remember we are here to judge religion by scriptures not people, otherwise Pakistan is not worthy of showing its face to anyone after being number one in porn search engines.
Max Muller a sanskirt scholar????? Tell me then why does his translations doesnt make sense??? Did you know, Max Muller or other western idologists tried to purposely destroy Vedas by purposely misinterpreting them so they can bring their bible over Vedas???
We dont care who ever claim to be Vedic expert, our open debate challenge is valid for all, if u think someone out there is a better Vedic scholar than us, then we are more than happy to debate him.
Shama, now u expose ur stupidity dear, u said that Galileo read the adam eve story from bible not quran, dear, they are the same, both books talk of one pair of humans, adam and eve in bible and adam hawa in Quran……..so Galileo was against the invention of one man and one woman in general so this shows he also opposes the quranic ideology.
Vedas are for people who wish to gain knowledge and propagate it to others, just like a man who wishes to study physics, so he would read textbooks on physics. But someone like u who has read a book of blood and threat like the Quran will never understand this. Why do u think India is the most popular country of Asia based on its economy and democracy, India is known for its sacred knowledge and culture?????
Have you ever wondered why Pakistan is the number one country in terrorism and pornography???
Before you accuse others, you gotta look at where your culture and country stands
@Sshama your Rasool Mohammad was right that your are half Intelligent I think you don’t read your own comments and links because I do not have taken this information from Ali Sina but it is given in the link you have given me of Nadeem, even your Nadeem is avoiding that question “Moore 13 stages of embyronic development” he says that Koran is not an embryonic textbook to give every stages of Embryo (Lol then why Muslims are claiming that Koran correctly refers to internal stages of Embryo).
Dr. Keith also worked at the King Abdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia LOL if Saudi Arabia is so advanced in Medical Technology then why are Muslim going to Europe and America to learn Medicine.
@Vik: ‘If there are facilities available for men but not women and vice versa, then islam even contradicts itself further by saying women men have equal rights…..’
I gave u the student example but seems u didnt understand. Let me clarify it once again. If you and your friend brought the same percentage in studies that doesnt mean you have to bring equal marks in each and every subject. Huh? U full intelligent guys needs detailed explanations.
‘obviously the marriage aspect proves it wrong,’
May be now you understand the equality concept by the above example or u still wanna give any proofs of ur full intelligence?
‘ besides why would God care who u marry and who u dont?????? ‘
Very simpleton question. If your parents can care about marriage, why cant the creator. Mind you our creator is not the ‘vedic god’ who is sleeping and doesnt care what you do and what you not, what is good and what is not, whether someone should follow his book (vedas) or no, whether vedas is important enough to be followed or just a time pass novel whose following or not following doesnt make difference, who had just created a never ending machine of endless cycle of rebirths which is in an automatic operation condition. Our creator is near to us more than our veins and each and every action of human is advised by God and has to be done in a Godly way, and marriage is a very important insitution which shapes up the society nay the nation nay the world!!
‘Have you not seen pakistani beauty contests????’
Show me a single miss world and miss universe contests in which pakistan or gulf countrie’s contestants have participated.
‘is the number one country in porn searching??? ‘
It seems you have lots of breaking news in your store. Porn searching…..coz they are not getting those activities in their country thats why they make use of the western invention. But what about the nudity and pornography non-muslim countries involved in??? Atleast pakis are still searching but what about others who are deeply involved. In mumbai a girl is not safe to go out alone and look at your women shamelessly shedding off clothes in movies and ramps.
‘Max Muller a sanskirt scholar????? Tell me then why does his translations doesnt make sense??? ‘
Coz the crap which he translated itself doesnt had any sense. Dayanand only twisted and turned the fairytales and tried to give them reasonable interpretations.
‘Did you know, Max Muller or other western idologists tried to purposely destroy Vedas ‘
Now there comes the victim mentality. If they would had to destroy the vedas they would not had revived sanskrit and translated vedas and made it globalised. Mueler was the guy who revolutionised vedic studies in the world specially in europe. And what was the need to destroy vedas, coz hinduism was already a dying religion and even at the times of british many hindus were converting to christianity, and it was not the vice versa that christians felt the need to conspire against hinduism or vedas. Infact it was hindu mahasabha which arose to conspire against islam and christianity to check the rising conversions and hold hindus back. When there was no islam or christianity they were busy in discriminating the poor and downtrodden hindus, and when christianity and islam came to give them honour, then suddenly these hindus started to hold the low class hindus back to hinduism. So it was not christian or muslims who conspired against hinduism but the vice versa. Shuddi movement etal were started to conspire and desperately hold back converting hindus and allure them to stay back in hinduism, and in the attempt even tried to interpret the age old books trying to give meanings that there is no discrimination among hindus. Arya samaj was thus one of those desperate movements started with the objective to hold back converting hindus and prevent the country to loose hinduism. What the hindus were doing when christianity and islam were not present. Discriminating and abandoning the shudras from their fold. But when these very shudras found solace in islam and christianity suddenly these hindus woke up from their deep slumber just to prevent the seats of their club from reducing. Limit of selfishness!!!!!!!! There is no value of human but only a false pride. I challenge you the more these hatred and extremists groups try hard to spread hatred inorder to regain their lost seats more seats they will loose. And this is inevitable.
‘Galileo read the adam eve story from bible not quran, dear, they are the same, both books talk of one pair of humans, adam and eve in bible and adam hawa in Quran……’
First try to understand completely before showing up your stupidity. I told you there is a lot of difference between bible and quranic stories, though the subjects are same.
‘Galileo was against the invention of one man and one woman in general so this shows he also opposes the quranic ideology.’
Galileos rejection of bible doesnt mean he rejected quranic ideology. And there is no proof that he researched quran and then proclaimed it wrong.
‘Vedas are for people who wish to gain knowledge and propagate it to others, just like a man who wishes to study physics,’
Thats what is the difference between vedas and quran. Quran is for all mankind whether a scholar or illiterate, whether a pauper or a king, whether a saint or a thief. But vedas only for people who wants to increase knowledge without even which it will not make any difference in their lives coz they can take even do goodness. But quran is the book which only contains the way to salvation and all happiness and all goodness. So obvioulsy the whole mankind who wants to achieve salvation has to compulsorily follow it.
‘Have you ever wondered why Pakistan is the number one country in terrorism and pornography???
Have you wondered why india is number one country in nudity and corruption. In pakistan pornography may be on internet, but in india it is on streets and their literature. Read kama sutra and go to khajuraho, even your temples have pornography and even your gods were busy in that.
@Sshama
Your example of school is off topic, but i will still answer it. I am saying since all students are given equal rights, why is a female student punished under all circumstances, wheras a male student even if he fails, doesnt get any punishment??? I prefer you stop giving me examples, just answer briefly why cannot a muslima marry a non muslim man?? Should not a woman be given equal marriage rights??? Shama, you are trying to defend the contradiction, but not removing it, you know very well its a contradiction.
What about the pakistani drama stage shows, have you seen the way pakistani women dance in those shows??? As far as arabs are concerned, do you not see belly dancing of arab women, now belly dancing is not a hindu invention is it????
Yes, parents care about their kids marriage, so in terms of God, we are all his kids, whether we believe in Him or not. Even the most pious parents would wish their son would get married, even though the son may internally not believe his parents to be his actuall parents. NOw, as per Quran, believers can only marry believers, what about the nonbelievers??? What did Allah prescribe for them??? As per Vedas, any man can marry any woman regardless shes he is a believer or not, see now u choose sshama, which book is for entire humanity??? Quran is only for the believers, and Vedas is for everyone.
the word “crap” is only synonymous with Quran. Quantum physics, Medicall Science, Astronomy is not crap dear, its Vedas, if you consider Vedas crap, then you consider all the scientific facts today crap as well.
Before I thought Hadiths were a bunch of lies, when they said women are half as intelligent, but now, after debating u, they seem to be shedding the truth. You think Quran and Bible are diferent in terms of Adam Eve. Let me give you schooling of ur own religion. As per Bible, Adam and Eve were the first man and woman made from God. As per Quran, Adam was the first man and prophet made by Allah. Now, tell me Shama, where is the difference??? Both books say a pair of man woman were made by God to start creation. So Galileo, if he opposed the Adam concept of bible, he also opposes the Adam concept of islam, since they are same. Galileo opposed any theory where God made one man and one woman and started creation. So Quranic ideology is rejected here as well.
who told you india is the number one country in nudity???? what proof do u have for this??? But I have proof of Pakistan being the number country in Pornography, you simply google or youtube it u will see so many answers. Its shocking to see an islamic nation like Pakistan have double standards. Kama Sutra is nor a religious text nor a dharmic book, its pure trash whom we reject. And the temple your talking about, we also condemn that, let me remind u, this is not a hinduism site, in this site we oppose temples or any form of idol worship, so do not give us the corrupted crap of hinduism here. This is a Vedic Dharam site, hinduism is a corrupted polluted versoin of Vedic Dharma.
@Sshama again and again you prove that you are half intelligent either you are living in Jungle or Islam has taken a toll on your brain. Sshama you don’t read pakistani newspaper VEENA MALIK is doing porn with indian boys in BIG BOSS and even pakistani mullahs are watching that show and giving their views on it and your pakistani army is big joke it has named its missile name after GHAURI AND GHAZNAVI who raped your ancestors and plundered and looted pakistan when it was in India.
Today Pakis who go to other countries call themselves Indians and try to take jobs because Pakis have become an abuse in many countries. Even your big big leaders are not proud to call themselves Pakis as your famous Benazir Bhutto who was more proud of her Iranian ancestry than pakistani ancestry.
Homosexuals make large significant percent of the criminal population in the country of USA, besides breeding great number of disease such as AIDS ..
Compare to heterosexual they tend to make a significant portion of the criminal population. Their loose lifestyle with many partners, tends to create criminal gangs as they are highly selfish and tend to bond with other man..
The mutilation of circumcision and castration increases chances of homosexuals. Muslims the love of young boys are known and the highest love is that of man. Also in Muslim/Jewish culture it looked down upon to love a women as a crime. Whereas those heterosexual cultures love of a women is highest form of love, and such people who can fall in love can never be a criminal.
Sodom and Gomorrah are Bible stories that relate to these facts of Bible culture.
Correction Homosexuals make significant population of prison population in America.
Monogamous heterosexual people tend not to get involved in crime..
@Vik: Your example of school is off topic
My example is exactly entwined with the topic but blame it on your full intelligence that you did not understand it.
‘why is a female student punished under all circumstances, wheras a male student even if he fails,’
Why a male is punished if he does not give ‘mehr’ and female is not. Why a male is punished if he doesnt take the expenses of the house and not the women? Does it ring the bell?
‘ I prefer you stop giving me examples, just answer briefly why cannot a muslima marry a non muslim man?? Should not a woman be given equal marriage rights??? ‘
Your questions indicates you guys dont know anything about Islam except the writings of Ali sina. Its good to criticise anything but before reading biased writings you should read the text with an unbiased mind first. If you look at the things from an overall view you will be able to understand it better. As far as you question goes, take up some good material of some renowned islamic writers and you will get your answer. Or just google search you will get enough material if you are sincere to seek the reason.
To give you the hint in a nutshell let me give you a clue. Its more often that a girl adopts the husbands religion rather than vice versa. And in Islam its the girl who goes to the husbands house and not vice versa. And in Islam since a girl goes to husbands home she obviously has to adopt the husbands household background, and get acquainted with the husbands household affairs.
‘Shama, you are trying to defend the contradiction’
Islam is the only religion on the face of the earth without contradictions and obviouly it has to, coz theres no other option.
‘pakistani women dance in those shows???’
Pakistani women dancing on stage shows and indian women doing item numbers in bollywood movies and not to mention adult movies. Good comparison. Kip up the sense of humour.
‘do you not see belly dancing of arab women, now belly dancing is not a hindu invention is it????’
What you have to say about ‘Kathak’ or ‘Bharat natyam’. Now they are indian tradition right? Same is the belly dancing a traditional dance of arabs. And what about the kama sutra densual dances.
‘Even the most pious parents would wish their son would get married, even though the son may internally not believe his parents to be his actuall parents. NOw, as per Quran, believers can only marry believers, what about the nonbelievers??? ‘
Ok so now you have changed your logic. First you asked me that why God should care about marriages and when I answered then you are jumping to other topic as to why should God prohibit marriage with unbelievers. I think its quiet clear by the term ‘unbelievers’. Marriage of believers with non believers is like a driving a vehicle with a truck tyre and a cycle tyre. First try to know the importance of the institution of marriage, its not only about conjugal relationships but also spirituality and Islam emphasises more about the spiritual aspect of marriage. Thats why the instruction of marrying only with the believers of God.
‘What did Allah prescribe for them???’
Hell!!!
‘As per Vedas, any man can marry any woman regardless shes he is a believer or not, see now u choose sshama, which book is for entire humanity??? ‘
If someone say anyone man can marry any woman, that doesnt make it a universal book. Even Rajneesh Osho says every man can have sex with every woman and vice versa, that doesnt make Oshoism as a universal religion. The words universality and vedas are poles apart. Vedas cannot even go further than ….brahmin , kshatriya , vaishnavas , shudras the four castes confined within indian borders, forget about the whole universe. Whatever is mentioned in vedas in confined within Indian borders , be it geography , history , races etc There is not even mention of the neighbouring countries or any historical facts whcih has any archeological evidence. I am eager to know any historical major world event mentioned in vedas outside the borders of indian subcontinent that has any archeological evidence. Vedas is only a country religion. And vedas is not talking about believers and non believers, but only about brahmins kshatriyas vaishnavas and shudras.
‘if you consider Vedas crap, then you consider all the scientific facts today crap as well.’
But still no established scientific invention or discovery based on vedas. Every religious book has some science but that doesnt make them special or the true book from God.
‘As per Bible, Adam and Eve were the first man and woman made from God. As per Quran, Adam was the first man and prophet made by Allah. Now, tell me Shama, where is the difference??? ‘
My dear bro…pls dont scratch your head over adam and eve story. There is lot beyond that. The concepts of ‘original sin’ etal are not present in Quran. Many stories in bible and Quran are same but there is lot of difference when the same story is narrated differently by man and differently by God. There is no proof that galileo researched Quran and proved it wrong. Stop going paranoid over galileo.
‘Before I thought Hadiths were a bunch of lies, when they said women are half as intelligent, but now, after debating u, they seem to be shedding the truth’
So now you know that Hadiths are true, and also now you accept that a half intelligent believer girl is more intelligent than a 100 full intelligent unbelievers. .
‘Galileo opposed any theory where God made one man and one woman and started creation. So Quranic ideology is rejected here as well.’
Galileo opposed bible coz of the scientific facst and not coz of Adam eve story. And if we falsely assume that he rejected adam and eve story then it onlty suggests he rejected bible version and not quranic version coz he never proved quran wrong.
‘who told you india is the number one country in nudity???? what proof do u have for this??? But I have proof of Pakistan being the number country in Pornography, you simply google or youtube it u will see so many answers’
Pakis are searching pornography coz pornography is not present in pakistan. But India doesnt need to search pornography coz they are practicing it and is the number one country in prostitution & poverty.
Kamathipura (also spelled Kamthipura) (Marathi: कामाठीपुरा) is Mumbai’s oldest and the world’s largest[citation needed] red-light district……wikipedia.
Dharavi is one of the largest slums in the World……wikipedia
‘ Kama Sutra is nor a religious text nor a dharmic book, its pure trash whom we reject. And the temple your talking about, we also condemn that’ we oppose temples or any form of idol worship
You are condemning this all now but many condemned it long time ago when they accepted islam. So you guys have a long way to go.
@Sshama
Again, then if men have to use their expenses for women, and women dont have to, again by this logic, islam has no right to say men women have equal rights. All I am saying even a non muslim can provide all these things to a muslima, then why does Allah show partiality here???
Ok if a muslim woman and muslim man are car tires, then jewish men and women are cycle tires, so as per ur logic, a muslim woman should not marry a jewish man, since u cannot have a car with a car tire and cycle tire, but Quran permits the reverse, Jewish woman and a Muslim man…….why is that??????? Does not the tire analogy forces u to prove it wrong here. You are contradicting ur own analogy here???
We do not consider Osho to be a role model or religious figure.
Islam has many contradictions dear, for example, no idol worship, but yet muslims are ordered to bow towards kaaba, shirk,,, yet you believe in mohammad besides Allah, apostates should be killed, what is this religion???
Cite a single evidence from Vedas that authenticates the caste sytem?????????
Islam was accepted by force of muslim invaders, otherwise today many muslims seen today would have been hindu, ur hindu ancestors were either forced or threatened to convert.
Can you show me a single verse in Quran that says earth revolves around the sun and other planets orbit the sun as well?????
Osho was wrong, I dont consider him a role model
@Vik: ‘Again, then if men have to use their expenses for women, and women dont have to, again by this logic, islam has no right to say men women have equal rights’
How is it that a simple point you are not understanding. Or maybe you understand but pretending. Didnt I gave you the example of the students. If you and your friend brought equal overall percentage and not in one subject does that mean your overall percentage necessarily should change?
‘All I am saying even a non muslim can provide all these things to a muslima, then why does Allah show partiality here???’
Why the vedic God does partiality to make some snake other ant other human or other pig or dog or cat.
‘but Quran permits the reverse, Jewish woman and a Muslim man…….why is that??????? Does not the tire analogy forces u to prove it wrong here. You are contradicting ur own analogy here???’
The analogy is for believers and non-believers. Non believers means idol worshippers. Though ‘people of the book’ are not included in non-believers so their women are permitted but not their men. Since muslims and people of the book have the same set of beliefs thats why their women are permitted but muslims cant give women to them, why I have explained you before.
‘We do not consider Osho to be a role model or religious figure’
I never said that. I just made comparison.
‘Islam has many contradictions dear, for example, no idol worship, but yet muslims are ordered to bow towards kaaba, shirk,,, yet you believe in mohammad besides Allah, apostates should be killed, what is this religion???’
No idol worship tahts no idol worship. Kaaba is just a direction to bow and not an idol to worship. No muslim will tell you that he woships kaaba. But dont know why critics force muslims to believe that they worship Kaaba. Its no less than a desperate attempt of other religions to include a pure religion like Islam in their fold and add stain of ‘idol worship’ to this only ‘idol worship less’ religion of the world. Coz all other religions in some form or the other do idol worship.
Yes every muslim believes in Muhammad, but as a ‘messenger’ and not as God. We believe in our parents that doesnt make them God. We believe in gandhi , churchill etc but that doesnt make them God.
Apostasy does not necessarily given death penalty. Quran has prescribed many punishments and one of the punishment is death penalty, and its applicable only in Islamic countries where shariah is the constitution, and even the shariah can choose between many punishments, and death penalty is not compulsory. There is a lot of differnce between killing and death penalty. I cant explain you in detail coz its a detail topic and recommend you to read from some authentic literature.What is the punishment of a traitor in any country. Its long time non muslims should stop comparing their religions with Islam, coz Islam apart from being a religion is also a consitution on the basis of which a country can be run.
‘Cite a single evidence from Vedas that authenticates the caste sytem?????????’
Read rig vedas in which it is mentioned that God created brahmins from head and shudras from feet blah blah.
‘Islam was accepted by force of muslim invaders, otherwise today many muslims seen today would have been hindu, ur hindu ancestors were either forced or threatened to convert.’
And who has converted the ppl of the most populous muslim country ‘indonesia’ when no muslim army went to indonesia.
Who has converted the muslims of kerala/tamil nadu when long before muslim army reached north india, there were muslims in kerala.
Who is forcing the hindus to visit muslim saints shrines. (Ajmer and all)
Why hindus worship sai baba ( a muslim ). Who is forcing them.
Who is converting the ppl now in the world when hordes of people are converting to Islam.
No need to go any further, just see in mumbai, in peace conferences alone conducted by Zakir naik, 100s of hindus have converted. Who forced those hindus to convert.
Before the advent of Islam , who forced hindus to convert to buddhism/jainism. Who forced ambedkar to join buddhism. Who forced guru nanak (a hindu) to start a new religion of sikhism.
Stop having a victim mentality. No use blaming Islam/christianity for hindus conversion. If at all I would had been a hindu, even I would had left it. Just open up your cupboard and see how many skeletons are hanging, and also try to think whats the reason.
‘Can you show me a single verse in Quran that says earth revolves around the sun and other planets orbit the sun as well?????’
From where this sun and earth came into picture suddenly?
@Sshama
again Shama, you are confusing duties with rights, I am saying why does not a female muslima get the equal right to marry a non muslim man of people of book? Now the duties of a man is to support and prosper his family and the duty of a woman is to mother her children, its not her right but duty. But as per Vedas, even a woman can be the head of the family there are no restrictions on rights intermingling between men and women. Women should be given equal rights in marriage as well, and also dowry is considered stupid as well.
Vedic God is not partial, today if one is a snake, a human, a horse, or an insect, it is mainly their fault because their deeds of their karma of previous birth resulted them to have this form. God is not partial, God just gives your soul the form it deserves, just like how islamic Allah throws people in hell or heaven based on their deeds. But Reincarnation makes more sense and can answer every question whereas heaven hell analogy cant. Plus many scientists have discovered reincarnation to be true. Just like the conservation of energy law, energy cannot be destroyed or created, it only changes form, similarly, the soul cannot be destroyed or created, it only changes form as per its deeds.
People of the Book??? Or why dont you say all the people your prophet copied Bible and Torah from and plagiarized the Quran??? Besides this marriage law is stupid. If Jews and Christians, were to abide by this same law, a woman cant marry but man can, then there would be bloody wars everywhere.
As far as Shirk goes, tell me one thing, if I want to be muslim, can I worship Allah alone without considering any agent or prophet or mohammad to be the prophet in my prayers???? The answer is no. The beauty of Vedas is I can worship the one and only Vedic God without associating any mesengers, prophets, angels or any agents..its sad people still go to hell if they believe in Allah alone but not mohammad, very sad.
Zakir Naik himself said in many lectures that all apostates should be killed if they reject islam and choose to propagate their new religion. By this logic, if a person becomes bhuddist, and propagates it, muslims will kill him. So then going by Naiks logic, a bhuddist should kill any ex bhuddist who recently converted to ISLAM???? How stupid is the shariah law, this law proves islam is fake and a religion which wants to keep growing but not lose its followers, my question is why is islam so weak?????
Do not talk about Zakir Naik, his lectures are nothing more than laughter shows for me. Besides we believe all the people that convert in his lectures to islam are fake, because the next day those same are missing, anyways, Zakir naik is scared to debate us after innumerable challenges, he refused to accept the challenge of ali sina on internet, and refused to accept the open house public debate of Arya Samaj, and keeps making excuses that we cant pull big crowds etc.
There is no such verse in Vedas where Ishwar said He created brahmins from head etc. That verse is interpolated falsely by people like Griffith or other fake scholars. The correct translation is that brahmin is a mouth, which symbolizes his ability to speak out knowledge. Kshatriya are the arms, and arms symbolize fighting, so the profession of the kshtriya is to fight wars against evil criminals. Vaishya is the chest, the function of the chest is to propagate blood to the entire body, similarly Vaishya are business men who propagate business and goods and services to everyone. Shudra are the legs that hold the entire foundation, and their job is to walk towards their destination. Everybody is born shudra, now its their job to become a brahmin or kshatriya as per their education. This is not caste system. This is description of the various proffessions a person can join. For more info read, “There is no caste system in Vedas” also found on this site.
My dear, you are still an idolator when u bow towards the kaaba. Even when you ask a budd or jain, that why do they bow before their idols, they would say they are bowing before God, and the idol is just for concentration. Now, muslims say their idol is for direction only. Both of you bow before an idol constantly while you pray but the only difference is the reasons, concentration and direction. Muslims bow before one big idol in order to pray to allah, and other idolators bow before many idols to pray to their God, but ultimately both of you are idolators. The only way you can trully be a non idolator is if you stop bowing towards the kaaba and pray in random directions, is your allah so lost that he wants everyone to pray in the same direction??? Cannot Allah sense your prayers in different directions??? Vedic Ishwar can sense our prayers from any direction and we do not need something like the kaaba to bow towards.
I am talking about the Moghal rule, how they forced and killed so many hindus to convert them to islam.
Guru Nanak may be against hinduism, but dont forget he was also against islam as well. But in terms of afterlife, why does Guru Nanak believe in reincarnation which is a Vedic concept?????? All sikhs believe in reincarnation of the soul……..
I brought the earth rotation question because you said every book contains science so I wanted to know the science in Quran, and see if there is a verse that says earth orbiting the sun
Next time number your arguments because I dont want to copy paste questions like you do and take up so much space
@Vik: Dont you think you are just hopping from one topic to other. This is the sign of the people who have closed their eyes and ears. I think you have got some overdose of Ali sina type of anti-islamic sites.
@Sshama
No my dear, I have hardly read Ali Sina material in life, islam is so illogical that everyone will speak against it, moreover Ali Sina has been muslim for over 20 years, and he himself found islam to be logical. If my eyes and ears are closed, then its the fault of your Allah, since he is biased for no reason he made be unlucky and fixed my destination to burn in hell
@Vik: Freeing someone from some duty is no less than a right. If men are obliged to do some duties and women are freed from that duty, it is no less than a right. If men are given some rights then they are also entitled with some duties too. Similarly if women have some duties they also have the rights over mehr and financial stability.
‘But Reincarnation makes more sense and can answer every question whereas heaven hell analogy cant. ‘
Reincarnation is no less than a fairytale, which only the some indian ppl follow. World laughs at such comic stories.
‘Plus many scientists have discovered reincarnation to be true. Just like the conservation of energy law, energy cannot be destroyed or created, it only changes form, similarly, the soul cannot be destroyed or created, it only changes form as per its deeds.
Ohh…again scientific desperation. Pls show me a single university science textbook which instructs about reincarnation. Grow up dude….and try to differentiate between theories and facts.
‘Besides this marriage law is stupid. If Jews and Christians, were to abide by this same law, a woman cant marry but man can, then there would be bloody wars everywhere.’
And who told you jews and christians follow the same marriage laws. I told you many of the beliefs are same but not all the laws.
‘As far as Shirk goes, tell me one thing, if I want to be muslim, can I worship Allah alone without considering any agent or prophet or mohammad to be the prophet in my prayers????
Shirk means not to associate any partner with Allah. For worship there are guidelines in Islam. Refer quran/hadiths/shariah for the true method of worshipping God.
‘The answer is no’
Muslims worhip God alone.
‘The beauty of Vedas is I can worship the one and only Vedic God without associating any mesengers, prophets, angels or any agents’
And who told you about this vedic god. Did vedic god sms you?
‘..its sad people still go to hell if they believe in Allah alone but not mohammad, very sad.’
Just believing in one god doesnt take one to paradise. For the eligibility criteria to gain heaven refer Quran.
It is not me or you to decide who will go to heaven , but God will decide. Believing God but disobeying Him doesnt make sense. We have to fashion each and every step of our lives according to Gods instructions. And then from the dos and donts it will be decided whether ur obediencies overweight your disobediencies or vice versa. If only belief would had taken one to heaven then it would had been so easier….right??? Just do whatever you want and just before death believe in God…or just believe in God but do whatever you want. Alas Quranic God is not a fairy tale vedic god, so Quran emphasises on actions combined with belief. And Quran is not an ancient book like vedas written a millions of years old and then compiled just a couple of decades ago (thanks to the muslim/christian invaders) and then suddenly claiming to be divine though lacking any systematic rules/regulations of worship , domestic laws , country laws etc….and the followers very easily ignoring it by justifying that it doesn not need to be followed coz goodness can be done even without following it. There are no records of vedas and hence no authorisation that it is from God. May be you may follow it but sorry not my cup of tea. I cant take the risk, you believe at your own risk. If quranic God turns out to be true you will be in trouble, and if vedic god turns out to be true I wont be in trouble. Heads I win tails you loose.
‘Do not talk about Zakir Naik, his lectures are nothing more than laughter shows for me.
Zakir Naik himself said in many lectures that all apostates should be killed if they reject islam and choose to propagate their new religion. ‘
If zakirs lectures are laughter for you, why you quote zakirs apostasy opinion. Limit of hypocrisy.
‘Zakir Naik himself said in many lectures that all apostates should be killed if they reject islam and choose to propagate their new religion. By this logic, if a person becomes bhuddist, and propagates it, muslims will kill him’
Seems you got overdose from zakir. Coz now you giving a good laughter. Kip up the sense of humour. I liked the ‘muslims will kill him’ part.
‘So then going by Naiks logic, a bhuddist should kill any ex bhuddist who recently converted to ISLAM???? ‘
Ask this to any buddhist. Why they are not killing ex-buddhist?
‘my question is why is islam so weak?????’
May be you will learn this by the hordes of hindu conversions in Islam. And Islam is the only religion which had confidently predicted that it has come to subdue all religions. And Islam is the only religion which explicitly and boldly proclaIims its own authenticity over all the religions and condemned all the other religions. And Islam is the only religion whose prophet has dominated nations over nations by announcing his prophethood and only his way correct and all others wrong. And surprisingly only Islam is the religion which is increasing steadily and constantly since the time it appeared on earth. Huh…I think some more points to add up to your belief of weakness of Islam.
‘Besides we believe all the people that convert in his lectures to islam are fake, because the next day those same are missing, anyways,’
Anyways???…Why anyways. This is the only answer you can give at this juncture for this point. Face the reality dear. Look around you whats happening. First try to hold on your religion people from abondoning your religion rather than blaming others.
‘Zakir naik is scared to debate us after innumerable challenges, he refused to accept the challenge of ali sina on internet, and refused to accept the open house public debate of Arya Samaj,’
Who is ali sina and what is arya samaj. No match. By the way his condition has always been ‘to pull big crowd’ coz he wants to expose the frauds of others in front of people live. And it was since the begining, long before you guys started to copy paste from ali sina and other anti islamic sites.
‘There is no such verse in Vedas where Ishwar said He created brahmins from head etc’
Stay in your fools paradise.
‘Even when you ask a budd or jain, that why do they bow before their idols, they would say they are bowing before God, and the idol is just for concentration’
It is not budh or jain but hindus who give the excuse of concenteration. To bow you need ‘direction’ and not ‘concenteration’. Got the point!!!
‘Vedic Ishwar can sense our prayers from any direction and we do not need something like the kaaba to bow towards.’
Thats the reason why vedic ishwar cannot impress even the people of his country. And since vedic god did not do his homework by uniting people by the direction concept, thats why you are condemning the hindus today and feeling ashamed to be categorised as hindus. And it is not surprising to see in todays hindu family, different family members have different gods. This is what vedas did to the hindu society, made a fun of the religion and their gods. And what Quran did to the muslim society nay the world being thousands years younger to vedas, is before you. Open your eyes and just see the world aroun you. Sanskrit is not even spoken in India, the country of vedas, and Arabic is spoken is the national language of no less than 25 countries of the world, which even the greatest european revolutions or philosophies cannot achieve. This is what Quran had done, united countries nay continents with the same language and same direction. Vedas had no direction and still hindus have no direction. Now you understand the concept of ‘DIRECTION’. If vedas would had been the book of God, sanskrit would not had been a dead language. How many states of india has the state language as sanskrit. Not even one. This is the reason why there are so many translations of vedas and anyone can translate anything based on his whims and fancies as what dayanand saraswati did, coz the original text is lost, and what is present is only the compilation did some decades ago based on the verbal narrations by some brahmins. And you trust those corrupt brahmins who has just memorized the verses generations after generations?? Only a fool will believe such book to be divine.
‘I am talking about the Moghal rule, how they forced and killed so many hindus to convert them to islam’
If mughals would had converted hindus, today there would not had been a single hindu left in india. These fables look good in comics but not in reality.
‘Guru Nanak may be against hinduism, but dont forget he was also against islam as well’
We were discussing about the point of blaming invaders for hindus leaving hinduism, so I aksed you who forced guru nanak or ambedkar for leaving hinduism. For your kind information there were even ancient indian scholars like panini , kapil etc who had rejected the authorisation of vedas based on science and reason.
‘I brought the earth rotation question because you said every book contains science so I wanted to know the science in Quran, and see if there is a verse that says earth orbiting the sun’
I told you science is present in some form or other in all ancient books including vedas. I was not talking about Quran coz Quran is the book from God so every word is divine and true. Earth orbitting sun in chariots is present in vedas etc.
‘Next time number your arguments because I dont want to copy paste questions like you do and take up so much space’
Next time organise your arguments by copying pasting my statements coz your arguments only seems loosely held sentences with no relevance and specifications, like the unorganised hindu books.
a)Consider a firm where the employees are men and women, both are given equal rights, a man can be a manager and so can a woman, but they all have different duties. Similarly, a muslim woman should have been given the right to marry a non muslim man, otherwise, the muslim man should have been restricted as well. I am pretty sure christian and jews do not want to give their daughters away to muslim men.
b)Reincarnation is a joke?? Can you explain me in islamic terminology, why Allah has made some beings animals and some humans?? Refer to the Ian Stevenson books of reincarnation.
c)I implied its not fair for a jewish or christ to give away his daughters while they wont have any rights on your daughters, as a jew or chrisitian, I would find this discriminating, because whatever reasons you use to restrict a muslim woman from marrying a non muslim man, the jews and christians will have the same reason. Again, the islamic rule is nothing more than a joke.
d)I believe one should worship God alone, without taking the names of any messengers or prophets. Sure, they may have been great people, we can respect them, but during worshipping only one name should be chanted….Ishwar, so when u say mohammad should be the last messenger, I disagree with that.
e)Ishwar doesnt send sms, He declared in YajurVeda, that only He should be worshipped without associating anyone else or anyones name.
f)Ishwar has already gave us common sense and we can judge which book is from God,,,Veda or quran……there is no proof that Quran is from God, because its only 1400 years old, and if God wanted to send a guidance logically, He should have sent it at inception. Just like how u buy a cell phone, you are give the owners manual at the time when you buy it, they do not send you the owners manual 6 years later!!!
g)We consider Zakir Naik a terrorist, since he openly declares that apostates should be killed if they propagate their own religion.
h)Thats all false, its a fact, islam was spread by the sword. Muslim invaders were nothing more than terrorists, they killed hindus and raped hindu women, very well their actions reflected the teachings of your so called religion of peace.
i)Ali Sina’s website is far more popular than Zakir Naik’s website, In the internet world, Naik is nothing compared to Ali Sina, that is why Ali Sina challenged Naik to an Internet debate, after all, Sina defeated every islamic scholar who debated him on his own site. Go read Arya Samaj history. Swami Dayanand debated many islamic scholars and when he challenged more and more, no maulana came forward.
j)Yes, agreed, if moghal ruled, there wouldnt have been a single hindu, that is why countries like Pakistan and Bangla, which were formerly part of India, all contain 99% of muslim population, your moghals tried their best to even convert India, but they were defeated by warriors like Marathas, Shivaji, Ranjit Singh, and Guru Gobind Singh. The moghal empire was shattered in pieces by these warriors.
k)bowing before kaaba is equalivalent to anyone bowing before an idol, so hence muslims are idolators as well regardless their reasons are concentration or direction.
@Vik: ‘Consider a firm where the employees are men and women, both are given equal rights, a man can be a manager and so can a woman, but they all have different duties.’
In the firm there is one financial manager and other HR manager. Both have the same importance and the same poiston but not necessarily their duties and rights are exactly same, but overall they are same. In therms of finance the financial manager will advise the HR manager and in terms of HR the HR manager will advise the financial manager. Till you guys dont accept the fact that there is differences between man and woman you will never understand the concept of equality. What is happening today in the name of equality is before you. And this very concept of ‘misguided equality’ which is seen as equality in each and every aspect, is itself responsible for todays misguided concepts of ‘feminism’ etc. And coz of such misguided concepts like feminism etc the very institution of marriage has been dmolished from the roots, divorces have increased, unwed mothers , broken houses, mistresses , extra marital affairs and the children grown up from such broken houses are psycologically disturbed and add a lot to gangwars & drugs groups etc. See some good scientific documentaries on the anatomy/physiology differences between man/woman. Refer Will collins writings on the subject.
‘ I am pretty sure christian and jews do not want to give their daughters away to muslim men.’
Who cares?? It is not compulsory for muslim men to marry jews/christians women. If they are willing to give their daughters Quran has permitted muslim men to accept their proposals. Simple.
‘Reincarnation is a joke?? Can you explain me in islamic terminology, why Allah has made some beings animals and some humans?? ‘
So just tell me that you did not understand the wisdom behind the creation of animals and humans. Just coz you dont the wisdom behind the creation of animals / humans doesnt give you the license to believe in some fairy tales like reincarnation etc. I will try to write on the subject of reincarnation to explain in detail and will post on my website soon.
If you believe in reincarnation that means you are discriminating between animals-humans , rich-poor , healthy-unhealthy etc. Not only that but you are even blaming a poor man of being immoral that he is suffering coz of his past sins. And if someone is rich but unhealthy then how will you decide whether he was a good or bad person in previous birth. And morever the accountability concept reduces to ground zero when you talk about reincarnation. Coz you tend to believe that we get the results of something which we dont know at all. So there is no concept of justice in this case. Justice of God reduces to ashes here. Leave about anybody to justify his actions before subjecting to punishment, but here the punished doesnt have even the slightest idea of what he has done for the punishment. Just coz you lack the wisdom or knowledge to understand the heaven-hell concept doesnt give you the freedom to erect some concept just to counteract heaven-hell concept, no matter however difficult it is against reasoning. If you leave your hatred against Islam and control your prejudice for your parental religion then only you will be able to see beyond the limit you have put on yourself. And the sins are increaing in the world,how is it that the animal species is decreasing and only human population is increasing. And how is that humans are becoming only selected animals which can be domesticated like cows , goats etc and what about the jungle extinct species like dado , orangutan etc And who told you that insects and all are inferior to humans. They too have a well organised world and their societies. All are Gods creation and no one is superior/inferior to anybody. Only on the judgement day one will come to know who is superior or inferior based on ones actions. Man has been given brains so that he can do justice with animals etc and utilise them for his survival, but that too by taking the name of God. Otherwise no one has the right to think anyone else inferior to oneself. Reincarnation is totally based on materialism that they think whatever is happening is the final result. And the crime or the vices in the world can never be controlled by the concept of reincarnation.
‘I implied its not fair for a jewish or christ to give away his daughters while they wont have any rights on your daughters, as a jew or chrisitian, I would find this discriminating, because whatever reasons you use to restrict a muslim woman from marrying a non muslim man, the jews and christians will have the same reason. Again, the islamic rule is nothing more than a joke’
If a father permits his son to eat macdonalds sandwich, but if the macdonalds shop is closed, it doesnt imply that the freedom given by father to his son to eat macdonalds sandwich becomes a joke. It means the son will try to find other macdonalds shop which is open or eat something else. Simple isnt it!!!!!!!
‘)I believe one should worship God alone, without taking the names of any messengers or prophets’
Its your belief. But the salvation lies in sacrificing our beliefs and likings for the instrcutions of God. What to worship and how to worship you will find in Quran.
‘Sure, they may have been great people, we can respect them, but during worshipping only one name should be chanted….Ishwar, so when u say mohammad should be the last messenger, I disagree with that.’
Its your opinion. Which doesnt carry any weightage. It should not be according to our whims and fancies but according to what God wants from us.
‘Ishwar doesnt send sms, He declared in YajurVeda, that only He should be worshipped without associating anyone else or anyones name’
Same is mentioned in Quran. But who told you yajurveda is from God. Did God sms you he has send yajurveda for you. In case of Quran, prophet told the whole mankind and each and every detail is recorded in an organised way. And Quran tells this clearly 100 times that this book is from God.
‘Ishwar has already gave us common sense and we can judge which book is from God,,,Veda or quran’
Absolutely. Quran is the book of God.
‘there is no proof that Quran is from God, because its only 1400 years old’
If you dont find any proofs in Quran, I am afraid you will not be able to find any proof in any other religious book. Coz Islam is the most organised and recorded religion of the world and hinduism is the most unorganised. And just being 1400 yrs old doesnt make any book false.
‘and if God wanted to send a guidance logically, He should have sent it at inception.’
And who told you God did not send anything at inception. The religion has always been one ‘Islam’ and the book has always been one ‘Quran’ but people changed it to ‘Vedas’ (if at all we agree that vedas were send by God earlier) , bible , psalms , torah etc. Then God finally refreshed his book and send it again the last time and will not allow this book to change. So dont think that God send Quran 1400 yrs ago, but Quran was always been send but ppl changed it and corrupted it. And ancient brahmins are the most famous ppl to change their book for establishing monopoly in the society and changed it for their own self vested interests. But still if you want to follow the present day vedas out of your prejudice, you may go on and you are free to follow.
‘Just like how u buy a cell phone, you are give the owners manual at the time when you buy it, they do not send you the owners manual 6 years later!!!’
Manual was given at the time of buying the cell phone. But you did not preserve it and lost it many times. But whenever you lost it the owner not only gave you the instruction manual but also gave you the latest revised instruction manual with all the modern and latest features included. So 6 years later if you take the latest mobile piece in the market you still have the latest revised manual from the owner at your doorstep. But suppose you find the first manual at the corner of your house which you had lost 6 yrs ago, in a half burnt condition or some pages missing condition or some scribbling by your infant child in the manual, and still if you insist to follow that half burnt half corrupted manual as against the latest manual at your doorstep, no one can stop you but then you will be a big fool.
‘We consider Zakir Naik a terrorist, since he openly declares that apostates should be killed if they propagate their own religion.’
We consider zakir naik as the greatest saviour of mankind in present day as he is the most honest person in present day on the face of the earth among all the celebrities (rich and famous). We even wish he starts a separate muslim english newspaper which can voice the muslims opinion in india/world then the world media will also listen the muslims voice and what muslims want. And also we wish he starts a separate news channel so that the false allegations which are going on against muslims as terrorists will stop. Also we wish he starts a separate political party on national level so that Indians will come to know what is true politics and how a society can be cleaned with honest politics coz indians never experienced a clean politics anytime in history coz before they had been fooled by brahmins and now by hindu wing right extremists and also we wish that India should get a muslim prime minister coz for the past 50 yrs of independence India did not get a muslim party prime minister. India should give a chance to muslims too. And we have great hopes for zakir naik in future. He is already revolutionising the religious scenario in india, we hope he does the same for socio-politico condition too.
‘)Thats all false, its a fact, islam was spread by the sword. Muslim invaders were nothing more than terrorists, they killed hindus and raped hindu women, very well their actions reflected the teachings of your so called religion of peace.’
Read world history and many renowned indian historians. Dont read the minority right wing extremists interpretation.
‘Ali Sina’s website is far more popular than Zakir Naik’s website, In the internet world, Naik is nothing compared to Ali Sina, that is why Ali Sina challenged Naik to an Internet debate’
Zakir naiks website is more famous than ali sinas website. In the real world ali sina is nothing compared to zakir naik. Who is ali sina, no one knows. You dont have even his photo, and you can understand how famous he is.
‘Sina defeated every islamic scholar who debated him on his own site.’
Even a small muslim kid can answer ali sina. Forget about scholars.
‘Swami Dayanand debated many islamic scholars and when he challenged more and more, no maulana came forward.’
Thats why may be you will find more arya samaj followers in the world than muslims. Why you always wanna make a fool of yourself by giving such lame points.
‘but they were defeated by warriors like Marathas, Shivaji, Ranjit Singh, and Guru Gobind Singh’
Shivajis father was ordinary sipahi in mughal empire and even when shivaji tried to make some mischief the empire he was arrested but pardoned by the emperor and employed in the coourt. But afterwards he with his son escaped by hiding in sweets box. Whom you are comparing with?? Shivaji and Aurangzeb? One was emperor and other a rebel. Guru gobind singh—I never knew he was a king??? Keep up the good knowledge. Only ranjit singh was king and only aroused after the disintegration of mughal empire. And who told you the mughals ruled only pakistan and bangladesh??
‘bowing before kaaba is equalivalent to anyone bowing before an idol, so hence muslims are idolators as well regardless their reasons are concentration or direction.’
Keep up the wishful thinking.
So, what is the ideal form of marriage? Polygamy! And may be your are right, because polygamy ensures there are no mistresses, extramarital affairs, no illegal children (and yes, of course, no property disputes, no psychologically disturbed children, etc.), only an ideal familial ambiance, isn’t it. Oh! and BTW, this is not wishful thinking by any standards.
The theory of reincarnation may be a fairy tale, but the stories of jannah and dozakh are not. Good logic to begin with. You are revealing your true talent. Go ahead.
You seem to be pretty sure of what God (allah) wants you to do. Likewise, there are others (nonmuslims) who are cocksure of what their respective gods want them to do. They do not rely on islam, quran, or muhammad for directions.
And God (allah) would not allow any further rectifications in his book (quran), why so? Probably, he (allah) is too tired or he has run out of ideas (maybe, of late, he has become lethargic, which could be a possibility, of course). Well, he can always borrow some from me anytime.
Well, coming to Zakir Naik, his juggernaut will not roll any further, and we will ensure that.
Anything that you have no logical answer for does not necessarily turn into wishful thinking. Forget Kaaba, how about grave worship? (Moinuddin Chisti, Fariduddin Ganj e shakar, etc.). By the way, have u ever been to a dargah? Well, most muslims do go there and offer prayers.
@Sshama
a)ok, let me put it this way, in this example I was talking about women men in general, not the different types of posts in terms of their profession. Ok, as per the canadian court marriage law, any man can marry any woman, and vice versa regardless of religion race or status. Now, can we conclude that the canadian marriage law is better than Quran, and the best law interms of marriage rights?????
b)Only Reincarnation is logical, not some stupid judgement day. Let me explain it to you logically, reincarnation shadows the actual law of nature. For example, suppose you get a fever one day, all you know that u are sick, but u dont know exactly what did you that resulted in this fever, you may have caught some cold, or you may have sat beside an infected person and so on, there are many reasons. But we know that you are sick, now its ur job to ensure that doesnt happen again by taking extra precautions henceforth. For example, stop going out in cold weathers and avoid contacting infected people, etc. Now, God gives you the form depending on the result on your deeds. Now muslims will say, if a man is born rich, but with disabilities, its the test of Allah, now my question is why did Allah give everyone different tests??? If He gave everyone different tests, why did he give them different time limits??? What about babies that die in wombs? Maulanas say they will automatically go to heaven, then my question is why did Allah be so partial to us by testing us?? He could have killed all of us and sent us to heaven directly???? See, only reincarnation can answer all these questions and not islamic ideology.
Why are human population increasing and Animals becoming extinct, if Reincarnation is true??
1)As per Vedas and Modern Science, this is not the only earth, there are several universes/galaxies created by Ishwar and they have several earths also having organisms like us, so if human population increases here, its probably due to the decrease of organisms there, and if animals are becoming extinct, it means, the probabiltiy of increase on the other earths. Now, science has advanced so much to tell us about the universes outside this one, but it has not advanced enough to tell us about the details of them. Reincarnation of souls applies to the entire created realm of Ishwar, not only this earth that u and me live in. So judging the idea of reincarnation only on this earth and neglecting the others is nothing but your lack of knowledge.
2)Even if this was the only earth and creation, then still reincarnation holds because, if animals are becoming extinct and human sinners are increasing, this means, that animals are given opportunities to become humans by Ishwar in order to cleanse their soul. Did you notice that the population of mosquitos and other insects are increasing. Dear, you have to keep track of all increase decrease of every specie on this earth, and that is impossible since there are more than 30 million different types of organisms on this planet, can you keep track of all of them??? Do u even know each and every one of those 30 million types in this earth??? Even with the best scientific tool you cannot do that. And not to mention the various organisms on the other earths as well?????? So there is alot for you measure before you can conclude that reincarnation is false. The only truth is reincarnation.
c)Vedas are from God, because they have so much knowledge that every human knows how to apply it. Quran is not from God, but a mixture of Mohammad’s concepts, the plagiarized concepts of Bible by the Arabs, and the filthy arab traditions.
Just because Quran says so it is from God, doenst mean that it is from God, I can write a book and write the name of God as the author, will you start following it????? We have to see logicall analysis and science in each book in order to verify that it is from God, and only Vedas pass this test.
d)Sending an owners manual to a customer after he lost the first one, implies that the owner was careless. Vedas were guarded by millions of rishis and seers thoughout history, now even if 1000 of them were careless, then there were the rest lacs of people who were responsible so you cannot imply that all the rishis were careless. And only Vedas had a coding mechanism that prevented it from being changed, so in no way Vedas could have been lost or changed. If Quran is the final copy of Vedas, then its wrong, many concepts of Quran and Vedas contradict. For example, Vedas teach reincarnation of souls, whereas Quran talks of judgement day, Vedas call for compasion on all living animals and humans, whereas Quran sanctions meat and killing apostates. So another thing, assuming we have the same cell phone, the newer sent owners manual should be 100% same in features whereas its not the same in the case of Quran and Vedas. A responsible cell phone owner would save and upload their owners manual on the computer so in no way it will get lost or damaged, and that is the same case with Vedas, rishis made a mechanism that Vedas will be passed down in the minds of people.
e)India had a muslim president Abdul Kalaam, so you cannot say India is discriminating.
f)Zakir Naik’s false propaganda will soon come to an end, keep watching.
g)Ali Sina gets more visitors daily on his site compared to Naiks IRF site.
h)Arya Samaj followers less than Islamic followers implies Arya Samaj to be truthful. Greater population does not imply truthfullness, for example, criminals outdue pious men, does it mean criminals are better??? People are engaging in alcohol and glamor more nowadays, can we imply it is better than respected traditional values???? Please do not use childish logic
i)You bow before an idol like the kaaba, means your an idolator regardless what the reason is behind your bowing. Cant you pray to Allah without bowing before that big black idol???
@SDC: ‘So, what is the ideal form of marriage? Polygamy!
Monogamy/Polygamy (when necessary).
‘because polygamy ensures there are no mistresses, extramarital affairs, no illegal children (and yes, of course, no property disputes, no psychologically disturbed children, etc.)’
Agreed.
‘ but the stories of jannah and dozakh are not. Good logic to begin with.’
Just coz you dont understand jannah dozakh concept, that doesnt mean you reduce your standards of logic to reincarnation fairy tale.
‘You seem to be pretty sure of what God (allah) wants you to do. Likewise, there are others (nonmuslims) who are cocksure of what their respective gods want them to do. They do not rely on islam, quran, or muhammad for directions’
Everyone is free to follow their respective ways. Afterall we are in a democratic world. But let the message of truth reach everyone. Then whether they accept or reject depends on them.
‘And God (allah) would not allow any further rectifications in his book (quran), why so?’
Gods book is perfect, doesnt need any recitifcations. Manmade books needs rectifications and U turns.
‘Well, coming to Zakir Naik, his juggernaut will not roll any further, and we will ensure that.’
Try your best might based on the foundations of hatred against him/his ideology. But destiny is inevitable and the plans based on hatred never succeeds.
‘Anything that you have no logical answer for does not necessarily turn into wishful thinking. ‘
Getting logical answers but still sticking to your points due to prejudice, ofcourse is wishful thinking.
‘Forget Kaaba, how about grave worship? (Moinuddin Chisti, Fariduddin Ganj e shakar, etc.). By the way, have u ever been to a dargah? Well, most muslims do go there and offer prayers’
I dont care. Follow the last book. Details of salvation are present there. Your all questions will be answered there. Period!!!!!!!!!!
As regards to my comment on polygamy, that was pun intended and you took it literally. So, you think when there are more than one claimant (which is generally the case in polygamy), there are no property disputes and no psychologically disturbed children. That is too naive of you to think thus. Also, the family atmosphere will most possibly be surcharged with jealously, competition, aggressiveness, malice if the joint family stays together with the multitude of wives and children.
And conversely, just because you don’t understand the theory of incarnation and transmigration of souls that you start believing in the preposterous jannah dozakh concept.
Well, in far as I am concerned, I categorically and emphatically reject the deen of islam, quran, and muhammad.
Well, if god’s (allah’s) book does not need rectification, then why was it rectified all along, from torah to zaboor to ingil, and then finally on to quran, and proclaiming that no further rectifications will be made. Or am I to surmise that quran and islam only came in the 6 century AD with muhammad and it is not eternal as claimed by the muslim evangelists.
Destiny is inevitable and definitely plans based on hatred will never succeed. It nailed it there. I think you now have an inkling of what is to befall islam. It is now going to face stiff and dogged resistance.
Logical answers!!! Do you even understand what logic is?
You don’t care, fine. But we care. The next time a daee comes to do dawah and talks about the one God worthy of worship and denouncing idol worship, we will pose him this question and ask him what has he done to stop this practice that his community members so dearly adhere to.
@SDC: ‘So, you think when there are more than one claimant (which is generally the case in polygamy), there are no property disputes and no psychologically disturbed children’
You are comparing joint family concept with broken houses. Lolzz…not so funny!!!
‘Also, the family atmosphere will most possibly be surcharged with jealously, competition, aggressiveness, malice if the joint family stays together with the multitude of wives and children.’
But you see more divorces in US compared to Saudi arabia. Maybe this jealousy concept is not working practically.
‘Well, in far as I am concerned, I categorically and emphatically reject the deen of islam, quran, and muhammad.
‘
Good for you!!!
‘then why was it rectified all along, from torah to zaboor to ingil, and then finally on to quran’
Refer to my example of cell phone owners manual I gave to Vik above.
‘It is now going to face stiff and dogged resistance.’
But since the advent of islam it has always increased as was predicted in Quran.
‘Logical answers!!! Do you even understand what logic is?’
Ofcourse I follow the most logical religion of the world.
‘we will pose him this question and ask him what has he done to stop this practice that his community members so dearly adhere to.’
Ver well go ahead!!! But before that also try to see the hindus around you, and try also to ask the arya samajis what they have done to uproot idol worship in hindus.
@Sshama your style of debating is cool I think you have great knowledge about comparative religion if you have debated like this in India you will be definitely called Bol Bachan like Zakir Naik Bhai.
No, dear, I am not comparing the two. I only meant (in case you failed to grasp the gist of it) that plural marriages (polygamy) have the tendency to degenerate into broken families (especially in free societies such as ours, and not in closed societies as in saudi arabia).
America is a free society, and that is why we see people walking out of marriages as and when they feel they can’t get along any further. But, in countries such as RSA where freedom of women have been curtailed, they have no option, but cling on to whatever they have, whether they like it or not. Well, did you notice, in the recently concluded asian games, there was not a single women participant (coz they do not allow female participation in outdoor activities). I wish and fervently pray that you go and live and, if possible, settle in stricter societies (islamic, of course) because too much of freedom is not something you deserve. I guess you know the hindi saying, “kutte ko ghee hazam nahi hota.”
But, why are you comparing your allah to cellphones? Don’t you know that he/she/it cannot be compared to anything else in this world? Anyways, I could not locate the comment. If you could elaborate as to what you meant to say, then I could answer you in a proper manner.
Well, it needs no prediction. Such violent philosophy had to face resistance, only this time round, it is going to be a more organized one. You are resorting to sophism, coz by now, you may have realized that propagation by the edge of the sword would not lead to fruition.
You follow the most logical religion in the world. Plz explain. Don’t make sweeping statements.
Well, arya samaj is doing its bit, but what you, as a daee, are doing to curb the menace of grave worship? I asked you a question, don’t deflect it by going around in circles.
@SDC: ‘plural marriages (polygamy) have the tendency to degenerate into broken families ‘
Show me any incident or any survey which says that plural marriages degenerate into broken families. Dont make wishful statements.
‘and not in closed societies as in saudi arabia).’
Ans this so called closed society has the best family stability statistics. With least divorces and broken houses and least number of youths involved in drug instances. And your open society of US has the maximum number of such instances. Welcome to the practical world!!
‘America is a free society’
Ya America is a free society. But the freedom has even entered into freedom to rape the women, freedom to consume drugs , freedom to divorces , freedom to suicides etc etc.
‘why we see people walking out of marriages as and when they feel they can’t get along any further. ‘
And how surprising this ‘walking out of marriages’ are just on alarming increase. I hope the ‘walking out of marriages’ is not as casual like walking out of houses or rooms, and how easy it is to walk out of marriages, you may ask the children effected of such ‘walking out of marriages’ What you call casually ‘walking out of marriages’ demolishes the very backbone of the society.
‘I wish and fervently pray that you go and live and, if possible, settle in stricter societies (islamic, of course) because too much of freedom is not something you deserve.’
Yes I dont deserve freedom to get raped , to get divorced , to be molested , to be robbed off of financial security , to struggle hard to earn livlihood etc etc.
‘I guess you know the hindi saying, “kutte ko ghee hazam nahi hota.”
I think this saying suits you exactly, coz you cant digest the truth of the last revealation.
‘But, why are you comparing your allah to cellphones? Don’t you know that he/she/it cannot be compared to anything else in this world? ‘
I am not comparing God with anyone. But just trying to exhibit that justice of God is not comparable with anyones justice, and whose justice cannot be less than an ordinary cell phone owner. When even a cell phone owner has the wisdom to do justice, Gods justice will definitely be manifold times an ordinary cellphone owner. Read the below response to VIK.
Vik: ‘Just like how u buy a cell phone, you are give the owners manual at the time when you buy it, they do not send you the owners manual 6 years later!!!’
Manual was given at the time of buying the cell phone. But you did not preserve it and lost it many times. But whenever you lost it the owner not only gave you the instruction manual but also gave you the latest revised instruction manual with all the modern and latest features included. So 6 years later if you take the latest mobile piece in the market you still have the latest revised manual from the owner at your doorstep. But suppose you find the first manual at the corner of your house which you had lost 6 yrs ago, in a half burnt condition or some pages missing condition or some scribbling by your infant child in the manual, and still if you insist to follow that half burnt half corrupted manual as against the latest manual at your doorstep, no one can stop you but then you will be a big fool.
‘Such violent philosophy had to face resistance, only this time round, it is going to be a more organized one. You are resorting to sophism, coz by now, you may have realized that propagation by the edge of the sword would not lead to fruition.’
Thats what I said. according to you Islam is a violent philosophy which wil die soon. But I said that apart from dying its only increasing since its advent and still going strong. And surprising for you it was predicted in Quran, that Islam has come to subdue all religions. I wonder why ppl are accepting such a violent faith. And much to your wishful thinking of dying soon, on the contrary its increasing manifold times.
‘You follow the most logical religion in the world. Plz explain. Don’t make sweeping statements.’
Already explained in my previous statements.
‘Well, arya samaj is doing its bit, but what you, as a daee, are doing to curb the menace of grave worship?’
We as daee had always strove for the preaching of Islam. The result is in front of you. Pakistan , Bangladesh , Afghanistan etc etc have all became muslims. In india itslelf muslims are the largest minority. Today Zakir naik is removing the misconceptions and presenting the true Islam, and millions of non-muslims have responded to his call and accepted Islam. How many countries did arya samaj influenced and how many countries have their constitution based on arya samaj. In india too how many ppl accepted arya samaj?? So now you got the difference between the preaching power of muslims and arya samajis. Theres a difference of sky and earth.
‘I asked you a question, don’t deflect it by going around in circles.’
Muslims cannot afford to deflect anyone in circles, coz of the power of the logical religion they follow. Hypocrisy is the weapon of those who are against the Islam. I asked you just to inform you and show the difference where arya samaj stands and where Islam?? Theres no comparison at all.
@Sshama
Yess, you are right there is no comparison between Arya Samaj and Islam, Islam is no where near Arya Samaj, since Islam has been defeated non stop by Arya Samaj for the last 125 years. Please read the history of Swami Dayanand Saraswati. Many great Maulanas embraced Vedic Dharma after debating Arya Samaj. So Shama, if your scholars embraced Vedic Dharma, what is stopping you from returning to your roots????
I will keep aside the subject of polygamy for now. Don’t worry, I will come to it.
You have deliberately refused to comment on the freedom of women in your fav country with the “best family stability statistics.” Anyways, the Saudis can afford to live a life of opulence because of petrodollars. Let me now turn your attention to other islamic countries, and especially the ones in our vicinity, viz., Pakistan and Bangladesh. What do you have to say on the condition of women in these countries? There are other countries in the fray as well, Somalia, Sudan (of Darfur crisis fame), Libya, etc. Do you any info to share on the family stability statistics of these countries?
And, yes, of course, you do not deserve to be raped, robbed off financial security, and blah, blah, blah (as if you are raped, looted, and forced to take drugs on a daily basis), but you definitely deserve to be flogged, beaten (lightly by your spouse), stoned to death, and hanged in public. BTW, I did not know that in America, one has the freedom to rape, to take drugs in public, etc. Who gave you this info? But, again, who else than your mentor, Zakir Naik? Part of a disinformation campaign, right. I know what it is. TAQIAH is the word, isn’t?
Last revelation? Who’s? Definitely, not my God’s.
Now, the cellphone argument is a self-defeating and self-contradictory one. Now, today, we have 3G mobiles. In a decade from now, we will have even more advanced mobile handsets. Now, will you then argue that I will only use the outdated 3G service because this is the last and final innovation.
Let me try and give you an idea of your allah’s justice system. This might make an interesting reading to you (I think I gave Abdullah the same set of instances). Consider this. Suppose, a nonmuslim devotes his whole life to working for the upliftment of the poor and needy and dies someday an apostate, he will be sent to hell simply because he was a nonmuslim. Also, if a muslim commits grave crimes during his lifetime, but if they repent (tauba) and seek forgiveness, they will be forgiven and granted a place in jannah. Also, consider this. If A (muslim) commits a petty theft and B (also a muslim) commits heinous multiple murders, then both of them will be sent to dozakh and for eternity at that. Now that may sound pretty logical to you, but to me, this is pure crap.
Islam has come to subdue other faiths. Now, this is wishful thinking.
How many people had willingly accepted islam, and how many were forced to accept islam by the barbaric islamic invaders?
By the way, you again sidestepped the issue of grave worship for reasons best known to you.
Vik: ‘Yess, you are right there is no comparison between Arya Samaj and Islam, Islam is no where near Arya Samaj, since Islam has been defeated non stop by Arya Samaj for the last 125 years.
Ohh really!! But alas the conversion rates are reverse. I wonder why the foolish ppl who are entering Islam, doesnt know about this breaking news that arya samaj defeated Islam. I hope 125 years are too much for the influence of arya samaj, isnt it?? When within a span of 100 years Islam which rose from the core of arabia was found shackling the roots of the superpowers of the day ‘persian’ and ‘roman empires’ and had almost reached the gates of spain on one side and sindh on the other. This is called achievement and this is the power behind a true ideology. And you comparing arya samaj with the Islamic ideology. It only gives a good laugh. Now if you wanna give me the reason of violence funda, better take a break!!! Check the success of any ideology in the practical world. You will find Islam the most successful ideology of the world, far more successful than even the French revolution.
‘Please read the history of Swami Dayanand Saraswati. Many great Maulanas embraced Vedic Dharma after debating Arya Samaj.’
For knowing the maulanas I need to read the history of dayanand saraswati. But for you to know how many vedic scholars accepted Islam, just you need to google or youtube, you will find in hundreds. Very easy. Trust me!!!
‘if your scholars embraced Vedic Dharma, what is stopping you from returning to your roots????’
Which scholars you are talking my dear. There are many like you desperately trying to link some fake names of maulanas to their cults. That doesnt carry any weightage. As far as my roots are concerned I can sacrifice a thousand such roots for God. Roots are made by man, our ancestors, we respect them, but that doesnt mean we choose them above Gods command. We may follow our customs which doesnt contradict Gods command but rest we should reject.
In order to understand the math of conversion rates, you have to take a few things into account. Firstly and most importantly, the methodology adopted by the concerned parties. Islam was spread by the barbaric islamic conquistadors who forced the native population to either accept islam or face dire consequences. Consequently, most of them converted to islam, only the brave struggled against the invaders and stuck to their religious beliefs, and hence, you see the high numbers of muslims in the indian subcontinent and elsewhere. The second most important reason was the infighting in the hindu community that led to a disaster with its rippling effect still being felt.
Well, to enrich your knowledge, let me tell you that internet pornography is a big business in the virtual world. Does then pornography become a noble profession worthy of practice?
“you will find in hundreds” Where? If you could provide links for our sakes.
Again, whose God are you referring to? Definitely not ours.
@Sshama
greater population does not imply truthfullnes, by this logic christianity is more truthful than islam since it has the highest population, and if we count all the non muslims in the world hindus plus christ, non muslims are more truthful than ur islam dear.
Show me atleast 3 Arya Samaj scholars or Vedic scholars who embraced islam??? I can show you more than three maulanas who embraced Vedic Dharma.
You still have not replied to my last email where I proved that reincarnation exists and your heaven hell fairy tale was debunked.
@sshama:
I love it when Muslims try and squiggle out of the corner they have pushed themselves into by saying something to the effect that “Islam is the fastest growing religion. So, all non-Muslims can shove it.” Firstly, there are problems with this statement unless we can clearly agree on the answers to “Who is a Muslim?”, “Who is a Hindu?”, “Who is a Christian?” etc.
As we are witnessing in our neighbourhood, the question of “Who is a Muslim?” has not been able to be answered satisfactorily in Pakistan even after 60 years of “independence” as a result of which Pakistan is currently facing grave existential threats.
Salman Rushdie is a Muslim-sounding name. Yet I am sure you consider him a non-Muslim infidel Kufr who has hellfire waiting for him in his afterlife.
If there is some Arab named Abdullah who does Yoga daily and experiences spiritual peace and sees the unity behind all of humankind, I think he is unlikely to believe in the exclusivity of Mohammed and that all non-Muslims are going to hell. So, I would argue, that this Abdullah is more of a Hindu than a Muslim.
Then, as SDC pointed out, numerical strength has to be taken with a pinch of salt because Islam spread more by the sword than otherwise. It is not like the current-day Pakistanis/Indian Muslims had ancestors who placed the Vedas/Bhagvad Gita/Siva Puranam/Vishnu Puranam/Ramayana/Mahabharatha on one side and the Quran/Hadiths on the other side and did a thorough study of both sides and decided to convert. It was more like – Mughals to Kufrs – “Convert or die you dirty Kuffrs”. ex-Hindus-currently-Muslims to Mughals – “Yes, Janab. I will convert. Please spare my life and the life of my family. Please do not rape my sisters/mother/wife/daughters”.
Finally, I doubt that either Christians/Muslims outnumber Hindus. I would say anyone who believes in One Truth that may be approached by different paths is philosophically a Hindu. The following article may shed more light on this http://www.newsweek.com/2009/08/14/we-are-all-hindus-now.html
Islam the fastest growing religion is big lie and fraud this fact was itself showed by Muslim TV Channel AL JAZEERA according to it every year 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity in Africa alone and then due to the civil war in Afghanistan, Somalia and Iraq the male population is decreasing because Muslims males are fighting against each other. The female population in Afghanistan constitutes around 70% of the total population in Afghanistan and in Shia majority areas like Iran they are busy killing Sunni Muslims and in Sunni majority area like the Pakistan and Saudi they are killing Shias so anyone with commonsense can easily make out that millions of Muslims are either dying or converting to other religions and only few psychopaths or perverts are converting to Islam so what is really happening is the crumbling of Islam and anybody saying otherwise is living in fool’s paradise.
I think gay has the rights to be Gay, Im friends with Adam, and he is gay, Im just saying, John Travotla is, Who gives a crap, right? Thaanksbye!!
Ilove you all <3
Payce
~Justin Drewbieber
Gay celebs are AWESOME!!! (;
To start this off, I would like to say that your argument is opinionated and filled with logical fallacies. I would give you an A for effort, but, on this topic, that’s not suitable. Throughout this comment, I’m going to move in chronological order through your post, and tell you what exactly is wrong with your argument.
Your analogy for your Claim 1 was weak; friendship isn’t love. As you defined in one of you comments, homosexuality is a sexual attraction between people of the same sex, not a mutual friendship between two people of the same sex. So, for future articles that you might provide to the internet, I would have to request that you keep your story straight throughout your whole entire article. Not just the body, but also the comments. I have seen middle school students lie out their asses with more precision than you.
First of all, your referencing the APA back to 1973 is weak. Back in those days, with the lack of science, the high rate of conformity, and the collective close-mindedness of the world, of course homosexuality would be considered a mental disorder. It might have been because the good book preached so. But you go on to say that there is no science to prove that homosexuality isn’t a mental disorder. But is there any science to prove that it is? I have researched this front and came out empty handed. So, again, if you’re going to reference something, make sure that you can actually support a claim with actual facts and logic rather than fluff and opinionated rubbish.
Also, claims one, two, and three all have the same premise. So instead of trying to make yourself appear to be intellectually savvy, please keep on topic and try not to fall behind. It’s sad if someone of my age can discern this.
Your claim three is obviously not well researched. There is still a lot of belief in the West that people are born homosexual. This might be hard for you to comprehend, but there really is no logic behind this. You’re throwing around names of organizations and, without proof, there is no basis. So please; just stop trying to elaborate on your point, for you are failing at it.
Your Claim 4 is weak. This appears to just be fluff to make your premise seem to be more efficient and well researched. Instead, maybe instead of creating a facade of intelligence, you should actually work for having something of intelligence. That way, when people stumble upon it like I did, they won’t rip you to shreds for some idiotic, elementary level argument.
The first point of your Claim 5 is totally ludicrous. You obviously haven’t done your homework. The first people known to carry the HIV virus were African Americans. When it was first discovered among the gay population, it was first identified as GRID, or Gay-related immune deficiency. Your lack of knowledge on the subject is appalling. If you honestly want people to take you seriously on your online ventures, please educate yourself before you spew your idiotic pollution in the face of the masses.
With this knew found knowledge, I advise you to revamp your platform and get with the program. It’s sad to see how far some people have fallen.
And, to top this comment off, I want you to know some of my background. My name is Tanner; I am a Junior in High School. With that knowledge, you could assume that I am within the 16-17 year old range. And the fact that I am thoroughly more educated than you is something to marvel; and people wonder how our generation would end up. Children that are being scrutinized and abused because of their sexual identity and their orientation are mainly coming from people and the children of people like you; ignorant, closed minded fools with nothing better to do in their unstable lives other than demean the youth into fear. It honestly makes me feel sick. I luckily have a relatively open minded family, which, for the most part, supports me and my sexuality. My close friends and acquaintances all support me. People who have similar parents, who are open-minded and nonjudgmental, also accept me for who I am. The only people who don’t are people who are heavily Christian in faith and those people who were trained to be ignorant to logic if it exceeds their comprehension.
Thank you for reading this, if you even did at all. I look forward to your rebuttal.
Tanner
http://agniveer.com/259/gay-rights/#comment-11201
I think you’re right.
The gay community is suffering from high rates of HIV infection. Drug use, and sexual compulsivity contribute to this problem. However, this view only focuses on the symptoms and fails to see the larger picture. It also presents us with an opportunity to confirm our stereotypes, and to forget for a moment that gay people are just people. Most gay people come from homes with opposite sex parents, hear negative messages about homosexuality their whole life, and are often confused and even appalled at themselves when they begin to develop their sexual identities. Many gay people have to leave their communities, homes, families and friends because where they live it is unacceptable to be gay. So, a marginalized community is formed, and often congregates in urban centres. Away from the support systems they once had. Rather then than judging, and looking at the symptoms as proof that there is something inherently wrong with being gay, I believe we can do more good by showing compassion, and embracing diversity.