Take a counter-way of thinking. If God is ever-perfect what would force God to take form every now and then? What is it that God cannot achieve without taking form? If there is indeed such a situation where God cannot do without taking form, that makes God imperfect before that. God is all-powerful and all-capable – this does not mean that God can change himself as per his whims or plans, it means that He does not require any external support or modifications to fulfill his tasks. God never has a choice – if God is one who has option to CHOOSE, the very definition or essence of being God fails. God has no option to choose; He is ever perfect at all situations and performs the most optimized management of world at all times.
That is why Vedas very clearly define God as changeless, formless, ever-perfect and all capable at all times without requiring any further changes on temporary or permanent basis.
Another point worth analysis is that all these alternate theories like advait (God and soul and nature are all one and same), and other variants of davits (God is with form etc), came in vogue only in last few hundred years or so – in a period when already we were suffering from rule of foreign invaders or post-Vedic philosophies. We need to go back to original source and take an unbiased look to discover the truth.
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That is another fallacy. The fact is that he did not create us. We are as eternal as God. We both have existed at all times together along with matter (wave-particle or energy-mass duo). Now since we continue to exist, the purpose of creation was not to make us dolls. Instead the purpose was to give us opportunity to do purushartha (actions) and reach state of ananda (perfect happiness). Soul is not capable of anything except will. God used matter to create the universe surrounding us so that our will can translate into actions. And action alone can lead to liberation.
Its not a question of God or soul needing each other. Because the fact is that both exist at all times. A sensible soul would thus instead focus on understanding the purpose of creation and deciding what can he do to make best use of the opportunity. Please refer to excellent articles at <a href="http://www.satyavidya.org/must-read/featured-read…” target=”_blank”>http://www.satyavidya.org/must-read/featured-read… and read all articles in serial order. I am sure many such doubts would be clarified.
<DIV> respected frnd</DIV> <DIV> now u have got me confused. if god did not create us then what role he plays in our life— On Thu, 7/16/09, IntenseDebate Notifications <notifications@intensedebatemail.com> wrote:</DIV>
hat of a manager. He does not create us but uses matter to create the universe around us. And he manages this whole affair so that our will is translated into actions. Thus your body, your nervous system, etc etc are all developed by him. If He were not there, theories of gravity, electromagnetism, karma etc would not work. Please refer to http://www.satyavidya.org section on Fundamentals of Vedas and read it once.
That of a manager. He does not create us but uses matter to create the universe around us. And he manages this whole affair so that our will is translated into actions. Thus your body, your nervous system, etc etc are all developed by him. If He were not there, theories of gravity, electromagnetism, karma etc would not work. Please refer to
<DIV> respected frnd</DIV> <DIV> if he is a manager only, then i must say he has failed as manager. i will not say this seeing the poor, and suffering people around me but the way he is making us fight to keep his superiority— On Thu, 7/16/09, IntenseDebate Notifications <notifications@intensedebatemail.com> wrote:</DIV>
Interesting observation!! But how did you infer that 'he is making us fight'? Why should we blame someone else for the mess that we have ourselves created. He created such a gigantic and complex universe for us to be able to perform actions and reach happiness. Will-power is property of soul and this universe is created to act as per our will. Whatever we will, he provides accordingly. In summary, soul is free to decide what to do but has no capability of deciding the consequences of his actions.
So we decide to create mess and get the same in return, How can you expect to not have piles unless we stop desiring spicy food?
Would request you to read <a href="http://www.satyavidya.org” target=”_blank”>www.satyavidya.org section on "Fundamentals of Vedas' once again. This should clear many such doubts.
<DIV> respected frnd</DIV> <DIV> my perception of a manager is that he extract the best out of the people under him. the the unit works the manager get praise if not he has to be held responsible for the mess— On Thu, 7/16/09, IntenseDebate Notifications <notifications@intensedebatemail.com> wrote:</DIV>
He is doing his best. He is not a dictator. He just ensures that as you sow, so shall you reap. Even this reaping is for benefit of the soul. But just as a mother scolds a child when it puts finger in electrical switch, similarly paramatma ensures we get the best reaction/result to our actions. When we act rightly, we get pleasant results. When we act wrongly, we get pain. This pain is also for our own benefit in same manner as the pain inflicted on child to get injected with vaccinations.
Also look at life from perspective of eternity and not few years on planet alone. Someone may eat sugar in excess and enjoy life. One may conclude sugar is good for enjoyment. But only when results are known over a long period of time, that we conclude that sugar causes diabetes. Similarly, over a long time horizon, there is absolutely no mess. There is observable mess in short term, but that is not created by God but our selves. The only way he could have avoided mess was by being a dictator and robbing us of our will-power. But then we would have been just puppets or non-living things and hence purpose of creation would have been lost.
The only way purpose of creation can be served is by creating the universe with its various laws, managing the same perfectly and yet giving us freedom of choice to execute our will and sense the correctness of will through introspection, analysis, pleasure and pain. If we ignore these, it is our problem and not His. If your father gave you money to buy books and you spend it on narcotics despite his continuous warning, it is his fault and not his. And yes, when things go out of control, your father may put you in prison, and God puts souls in non-human life forms where the freedom of will is severely restricted as per the level of 'out-of-control'. Souls thus spend time in such species till they get rid of their obsessively negative behavior and again take birth as humans. Only humans have complete freedom of executing free wlll. How much to exercise is also left to us. If we execute it correctly, we move ahead in path of Yog and get liberated. Else the life-cycle continues. Each human has potential to fight soul-created mess and raise his level. How much they execute is again left to them. Some create mess, some crib about mess and others rise up to fight mess to extent possible. Those who rise up move ahead in path of yog through right knowledge, right devotion and right actions. Others continue their stalemate. You can decide your option.
<DIV> respected frnd</DIV> <DIV> again u have hurted a bouncer. in the present day set up u do not reap what u so. like u earn the worldly gains thru corrupt means. he never punishes the op pressers, at least not in this world, so where is his management?</DIV> <DIV> he as a manager has to make the workers, whom he guides, to have a goal. unless he sets the goal the workers will not act in a proper way to run the factory(in this case the life) as a well oiled machinery.</DIV> <DIV> u are contradicting irself. as u said he has not created us, as well as universe. so any law made by human being will have the personal angle. as regards the the punishment of putting the bad souls in animal form, as the people of abrahminic faith. they will laugh at u on this perception.</DIV> <DIV> pl do clearify the web of ignorance in me— On Thu, 7/16/09, IntenseDebate Notifications <notifications@intensedebatemail.com> wrote:</DIV>
I would first of all recommend you the literature I mentioned in previous posts. Please understand that it is a deep science and everything cannot be explained in few sentences. It requires study and introspection. Here are brief answers though:
1. He punishes the corrupt in many ways. One, they do not get the mental peace and bliss as one who is on path of God. Please do not consider those who are on right path out of fear and not reason.
2. Corrupts make waste of their lives. If you consider life to extend beyond these hundred odd years, you will understand that it would be foolhardy to make any conclusion out of only 100 years.
3. You were born in this corrupt world because as per your previous spiritual evolution, this earth and this yuga was best for your further growth.
4. He does not sit like a king and orders punishment for souls. Instead every moment he works with you and for you to help you grow and improve. Thus if you think evil, adverse hormonal reactions start in your body, you start feeling uncomfortable. But if you refuse to pay attention to these signals, you dig grave for yourself. Yajurveda 40.3 states that such people pave their path to enter darkness.
5. The simple approach to God realization is to follow one’s minutest instincts – avoid any task which gives feeling of shame, confusion or guilt. And proactively seek urges that bring feelings of happiness, satisfaction, alertness of mind. These have to be done at minute level and not coarsely. Thus you would see that putting efforts, gaining knowledge, helping others, meditation etc give utmost satisfaction that no material thing – wealth, political power, sexual craving etc can compare. Most material enjoyments are illusions because of debilitated mind that has lost his capability to think properly like an alcoholic losing control over senses.
6. We have created our own assumptions that money, wealth, power, sex etc in themselves bring happiness. And hence assume that those who get it are most happy. We feel disheartened that some people do all wrong things and get easy access to these. But only those remain happy who use these only as tools for a higher purpose. And right happiness can come through right goals and right means, both. Here by right means, I do not imply complying by human-created laws. But complying by laws of nature/Ishwar. Do you think a Netaji Bose or Bismil was unhappy in his pursuit. No! Instead the satisfaction that they derived from following their conscience is beyond any comparison with those who consider petty things like wealth, power, lust as goals in themselves. Do you think a Shahrukh Khan can be more happy in life than a Dayanand Saraswati or Shivaji? If you think, you are in illusion.
7. To understand these laws, we need to introspect and study. And that will help us redefine our definition of success and happiness. This will resolve your doubts.
The goal of life is to seek happiness. That is evident in each act of every living being around.
Prove yourself that worldly gains are biggest determinants of happiness and your assertions may be right. But this is only a myth. Wordly gains are necessary to an extent, and only as a tool. The moment they become goals in themselves, they become seeds of misery. Many may get easy access to them due to past karma and present efforts. But unless you are driven by a higher goal, it will only add to misery.
This is law of Paramatma and it ensures that He remans just and kind, always.
Read http://www.satyavidya.org once (Section non Fundamentals of Vedas)
If God almighty, is just managing things, dont u think 'Manager' is a position ( post ) which can be occupied by anybody & then set the rules as they wish….
It seems much similar argument of ( Advaitists : You can become God (aka manager), by meditation & right actions & so on..). For ex:- I will strive hard to reach the 'sat-chit-ananda' position… I become manager ( aka God ), then decide no punishment for the actions of other souls ( based on karma ), souls can do anything they want to… Because its my rule , my wish….
The problem here is 'Vedas' are not clear about 'How is God-Almighty' very much different from 'other living-souls' ? About his authority & power, & why is always he is the only one fit to be manager, without others able to grab that 'Manager post(aka God's position )….
The problem with the 'fixed character' called God in vedas is, somebody is needed to keep things fixed without changing it, & later they can change it if they want to… And who is that somebody ( I would say he is the 'God-almighty) & not the 'fixed thing (: which is us : living souls)' with fixed set of charecters & rules…. We are dependent on 'God-almighty' & not vice-versa,,,, But going by vedas it seems, we are independent.
No, unlike in human society, there is no retirement concept. God is manager because he does not create what does not exist. Soul and Nature are also eternal. He thus manages them.
Since all the three entities are eternal, there is no change of grabbing of Kursi. It has been the same forever.
Regarding, can he decide to change the rule, NO. Because Ishwar is also omniscient. Thus he has set the same best rules forever. Changes happen when there is scope for improvement. But for best, there is no further scope.
'God-almighty' & the soul of all the living beings existed at all times. Fine we accept it. But what is the position of 'God-almighty' if he has not created the souls & they are also eternal along with him. It is simply non-sense to pray to God. Because we need not pray 'God', as he doesnt have any authority on us. Because we as ( soul ) can exist at all times , without his support also…
I prayed to 'Lord Vishnu' & got the following revealation. He describes himself as 'time' in 'Bhagavad-Gita'….
There is also few aspects of Vishnu like 'Infinite brahman' & 'shoonya'….. It means nothing exists.
1) No God.
2) No soul.
3) No time domain
4) No space domain.
5) No matter.
Nothing, nothing & nothing exists. Its absolute shoonya, which is an aspect of the 'God-almighty'. Then comes everything in to existance & there is no specific time frame also, because time doesnt exist then. Dont know how, but it comes to existance. Now there is 'God, soul, time, space & matter everything… But this action is carried out by 'God-almighty' alone. I.e from non-existance to existance. So it also satisfies about the eternity question, which just based on time function only….
Coming to the question of 'God-almighty' being formless. Its absolutely rubbish to say that 'God-almighty is formless alone. If vedas say so, I would suggest put all the 'vedas' in to 'garbage'. If the 'Torah, Quran or bible' says so, put them also to 'garbage'…..
If tiny living beings on earth are with form, its absolutely silly to claim that 'God-almighty' is formless & he cannot manifest himself. Then 'vcd-player' also cannot manifest itself. But humans can manifest it to a different form. Is 'God-almighty' such a 'fixed charecter', I can blissfully claim, that I created 'God-almighty' & he by himself is unchangable… I guess you have to read bhagavad-gita' to get some idea, whether 'God is formless or with form…
Praying is not to earn discounts from Ishwar. It is to remove one's own layer of ignorance.
With regards to form, if Ishwar can do everything without coming to form, why should he come to form for petty things? Form is taken by those who have a limited scope and variations in their density. Something which is all-pervasive, cannot have form.
Bhagvad Geeta, though an inspiring book, is not at par with Vedas. Thus Geeta has to be interpreted in light of Vedas.
I think, it is very prepostorous to think God-almighty cannot have any form (i.e spiritual form : there doesnt arise the volume, density concept as in pyhisical nature. Its too dumb, to be spread across the cosmos as per your definition of formless God, existing with living souls & matter eternally. The very idea of God becomes insignificant, if he cannot have any control to destroy or create the soul & matter , & create space & time domains. Your definition of 'God' is pointing somewhat towards nature. Because it is the nature which is acting , & provides resistance & reaction for our actions. It sustains life.) . Something, which we are not sure of, & which have not conceived through our senses or other means, better to keep the options open rather than brand it with some specific attribute.
Since all the living-beings have personal relationship with God, obviously God will interact with living beings in a very personal way & hence his personal form. This formless attribute is just one of the 'infinite attributes of the God-almighty & is very much insignificant for all the living souls & matter, because there wouldnt be any proper interaction between them & 'God'.
For example :- Fear factor played a major role, in believing of formless God… Initially when the idols were worshipped, assuming God is with so & so form. As there were conflicts between several tribes among the people, opposition conquering tribes usually used to destroy the idols of God of the rival tribes.It is as if the destruction of their God himself.
Since the idols were prone to destruction, some tribals came with the idea of 'formless God', because he cannot be destroyed & he is only in their minds. This resulted in the belief of the 'formless God'.
Your source of origin of formless God is defective, at the best. Perhaps the definition of God as per your thoughts and what is ishwar as per Vedas is completely different. But yes, indeed your theory if applied to vedic Ishwar sounds extremely humorous.
The vedic Ishwar is shapeless, all-pervading, perfect and ever-existent, and hence there is no need for Ishwar to observe any form. There is nothing that can be accomplished by taking form, that cannot be done otherwise.
The idea of shapeless Ishwar comes not from tribals but from Vedas – the oldest texts of world. I know that some dumb-people try to prove that Vedas came much later, and there was some other ideology before that. But that is only a hypothesis without any evidence.
Unfortunately, instead of accepting and analyzing truth, people tend to simply try to justify what they believe due to their birth or society. Thus one born in Muslim family would try to prove that only Islam provides truth, one born in Pauranic family sees truth only through Purans, one born as Jain would try to prove that Jainism is the oldest philosophy, and so on. One simple way to assess these philosophies is to ask their followers to bring forth their original scriptures and critically analyze them for authenticity.
I see that you are a Jain, from your email. If that be so, it would be insightful if you could refer to authentic Jain texts so that everyone can evaluate the same. I am not sure, though, that the theory you are presenting is as per Jainism or your own innovation.
Advaita vada (impersonal) philosophy was originally propagated by Shankaracarya, whose commentary on Vedanta Sutra, sariraka bhasya speaks about the oneness of God & the living beings. But there are other commentaries of equal or more value by great spiritual perceptors like Ramanujacarya, Madhavacarya, Shridhar Swami, Baladev vidyabhushan etc. which refutes this & establishes that the Lord has a spiritual form. I would request you to please patiently lend your ears & open your heart to these beautiful understanding of the scriptures before you form an opinion.
@ Arya
Brother where in the Veda is it mentioned that soul can only act within a physical form? What happen to the soul at Moksha? What is a physical form and a non physical form?
TQ
@Brother Siva
1. We were talking about soul brother. Soul and Eeshvar are two different entities and thus have different Swabhaav. So, logic of action of souls does not hold good for Eeshvar.
2. No brother. We are not a drop of sea water. If we were so, we would be having all qualities of Eeshvar, but we dont. And example of drop has a flaw. Question of existence of drop comes when it is taken out from the sea. Or we can say that concept of drop can exist only when we have space other than sea, where we are analyzing the drop. But there can not be any take/give to the omnipresent Eeshvar. Can anyone think of a drop inside sea? No, because one can not differentiate a drop with its surroundings inside sea. So, according to Vedas, Eeshvar, Aatma, Prakriti (matter) are three Anaadi (beginningless) entities. Soul can not become Eeshvar, even in Moksha.
3. In Moksha, soul in its higher state of knowledge, experiences the bliss of Eeshvar just like a baby in the lap of mother.
@Siva
brother, soul is formless, it can never have a form. Only our body has a form. The soul is abstract and the body is concrete.
@ Brother Vik
1.Where in the Vedas is it mentioned soul is abstract?
2. Does Devas(eg. Indra, Agni) has soul?
3. Where does the Devas reside? (eg is it Indraloka or heaven)
TQ
@Siva
1. Brother, whole creation has been done only for souls. Eeshvar is complete and Prakriti is "Jad" or unconscious, and thus both dont need anything. So, it is just soul, who is benifited by creation. Whole Vedas teach humans, how to live and attain Moksha. Moreover, Geeta also says- "Nainam Chhindanti Shastraani…"
2. Devas simply mean- "with Divya Guna". There are two types of Devas- "Chetan" and "Jar". Chetan Devas are Eeshvar, mother, father, teacher etc. Jar devas are Agni, Prithvi, Indra (Vidyut) etc. But only one Deva out of these is worthy to be worshiped and that is Eeshvar. Any soul who does good deeds and try to attain knowledge is deva. That is why, the scholars in the ancient times were called as Devas. However, there are no Indra or Agni devas in human form and there is nothing like Indralok or heaven as mentioned in Puran.
Brother, please read Satyarth Prakash by Swami Dayanand to get references of Vedas and Shastras on these issues.
How can we know what are the properties of God?
Would like to add one more quality – He has a beautiful form, which is completely spiritual.
God has infinite qualities. It is not possible to know them all by our own endeavour. When He is pleased He can reveal them to us. The process is to please Him.
Is there any Arya Samaj in Bangladesh?
@Jagdish
Very difficult to say brother, but anyway, read Satyarth Prakash and know your Vedas and Dharm.
Generally the term used to describe God as formless is nirguna. Anyway, I liked your example of 'mango'. So since nirguna only means that His form is not material, why not accept that His form is spiritual. My point remains that you are imposing the limitations of the physical form on God. God is completely spiritual – He has a spiritual form. I agree with you that God's form is not material / physical. Since physical / material form has limitations instead of inferring that He is formless, why not accept that His form is 'spiritual' .
Ishwar is always a person. He does not change. Nevertheless it is His quality to possesses unlimited energies. His energies are shakti & He is the shaktiman – the possesor of energies. One of His energies is the impersonal brahmajyoti – the effulgence of the Lord – which is mistaken as the Lord Himself by people with inadequate knowledge.
Again, you are imposing the limitations of the physical / material world on to God. Why do you think that God – as a spiritual person – cannot be omnipresent.
Namaskar agniveer,
Just a food for thought.
Is it possible that Niraakaar-निराकार could mean beyond a fixed form or shape.
There is a very specific word i.e. अमूर्त to denote shape less.
If it is said GOD is "form less", does it not place a limitation on God.
That God is not limited by any shape or size i.e. beyond shape, perhaps is more sensible?.
To think of God as just with form or only formless – both confines him and asserts that there is something he can't be. Vishnu Sahasranaamam says: He is one and many at the same time (Eko Naikah) He is and is not at the same time! (sath asath) He is destructible and indestructible at the same time (Ksharam Aksharam)! These thought are not of an ordinary mind.. Shri Rudram in the Vedas have similar sentiments: Viroopebhyo Vishwaroopebhyashcha vo namo namah. Again Hrasvaaya cha vaamanaya cha nomo bruhathe cha varsheeyase cha..
I agree with all other thoughts in this site.
Namste AgniveerJi,
I want to know meaning of Niramay which is also one of the property of GOD.
Angiveer Ji..
As we know that Sri Krishna was a devotee of the God, then why in Kurukshetra, he talked to Arjun like he was God..He used the word ‘I’ which was to be used for God.
Like he said,
“I exist in all of the three Lokas.”
“Persons who worship idols also worship me.”
“Whichever demigod a particular devotee desires to worship, i surely sustain firmly that faith in him.”
@Sunny
Please dont take any scripture other than Vedas as ultimate. Geeta is the part of Mahabharat, which is a history book. Mahabharat has many interpolations and thus should not be read to know the principles.
Hey Agni,
You have said the concepts of Advait, Dvait, Vishit Advait etc are not original and came only few hundread years ago.
I beg to differ on 2 counts.
First, these theroires are taken from the 4 Vedas. Great saints and acharyas such as Adi Shankaracharya, Ramanuja, Madhavacharya, Chaitnaya Mahaprabhu interpreted the Vedas in accordance to their school of thought. And there is nothing wrong, because everyone encourages an esoteric interpretation of Hindu scriptures. Hence, these personalities may have been born after the common era (birth of Jesus Christ), but they all credit their school of thought as interpretation of Vedas.
Second these different concepts such as Advait, Dvait etc were direct realizations of seers. All the writings of these Rishis are backed by their actual realization.
1. Realization is a personal experience. There is no way to claim that few saints had realized something and other mundane men had not. And then, when say saint X realized that the otherwise hidden truth has yellow color, and saint Y discovered it to be blue, there is no way to decide who is true, especially when saint X says that those who do not see it yellow and of any other color is misled and wrong. And saint Y says that those who see anything other than blue is a fool. In such scenario, only our personal realization can tell the real truth. But yes, both saints cannot be true at same time, when they both refuse to accept that anything accept what they claim to have seen is true.
2. We have referred to facts here. The fact is that there was no realized saint born during golden period of our civilization to have believed in Dwait, Adwait etc. All these new realizations came only recently after downfall of nation had began. Thus none of the older texts from Vedas to Brahmans, Upanishads, and even epics talk of these new philosophies.
3. We can also claim that people behind Agniveer are also saint in same league as the names you mentioned. Some may claim Sai Baba Puttaparthi, Asaram Bapu, Zakir Naik, Dalai Lama etc also to be exalted saints. There will be no way to verify, except to test what they say as per benchmarks of Vedas and accept only what is truth, and not merely because the person who said it was a famous person.
Dhanyavad
Aditya
Agniveer Team
There is a wonderful story about Ramana Maharishi where he clears doubts of 3 Muslims on whether God has form or not.
It is said that 3 Muslim pilgrims from Sri Lanka visited Ramanana Maharishi in his Ashram. The pilgrims acknowledged Ramana as a man of wisdom, a Peer. However, they still had a desire to mock the practices of Hinduism.
The 3 Muslim pilgrims asked the Maharishi (1) Whether God has a form or is he formless. (2) If God is formless why do Hindus worship idols.
Ramana smiled and said leave God alone, only He knows himself, but please tell me whether you have a form or not?
To this the pilgrims replied that since we have a body, we are definitely beings with a form.
Ramana replied but what happens to your body in Deep sleep (Sushipta Awasta). In deep sleep are you aware of your body?
The pilgrims had to say in the state of deep sleep, body conscience is lost and there remains no form, atleast for that period, until they are awake and realize the body.
Later in the conversation the pilgrims agreed that they were only aware of their so called form in waking state and dream state: however, not in the state of deep sleep.
Ramama Maharishi said: If you can simultaneously have a form and still be formless, why cannot God be both with form and without form.
The pilgrims accepted the Divinity of the Maharishi, bowed to him, and left convinced that God is unfathomable, and it is not up to them to judge whether God has a form or not.
@Van
Do we become formless during sleep? Is “not realizing consciousness” same as “unconscious”? If someone is unable to feel God, does it mean God does not exist for him?
Please talk about Vedas only.
I think this link presents a very interesting viewpoint.
http://www.fredvanlente.com/downloads/WhyWeHere.pdf
I agree with @Correctfunda……
How did vedas emerge…??? revealed directly…to human minds….ah….???
God appeared and gave it to a human hand ah…???
@SSS
So you have embraced Jainism?
Regarding my Jain origins, u r pretty much well aware that Jainism rejects the authority of Vedas, & doesnt believe in the idea of all pervading God-almighty as such….. Hence there is no point to bring jain scriptures in to picture as it has nothing to do with the vedic concept of God. Neither am I speaking from the Jain scripture point of view…
Kindly shed some light on as how did God-almighty exactly reveal the vedas to the first humans to step on earth ? i.e how did he communicate the vedas to humans ? through speech ? or through any other 'Devata' such as 'Brahma' or something like that ?
Until then was the vedas unknown for the human souls, & if so are u talking in terms of time domain, where it was unknown to them & then was communicated to them as they first stepped on earth ?