In this article, we shall discuss the concept of eternity of Vedas. Just as Ishwar is eternal, so is His knowledge.
Doubt: Vedas comprise of words, phrases and verses. Just as a sculpture is not formed without someone making it, in same manner Vedas must also have been made by someone. They did not exist before creation and shall not exist after dissolution. Hence Vedas cannot be eternal.
1. Words (Shabda) are of two types – eternal and effect. Words in knowledge of Ishwar are eternal because they represent relation with specific perfect knowledge. However the words created by us are effects of various factors including our existing knowledge, tendencies and mindsets and hence non-eternal.
The knowledge of Ishwar is eternal in lines of eternal powers of Ishwar. Thus Vedas are eternal.
2. Let us understand it in a different manner. By words we imply the relation with specific knowledge. For example, when someone calls or writes your name, that pronunciation or handwriting is not eternal. But the fact that it implies relation with you in unchangeable. If one has to represent you in sound, calling your name would be the best possible way. But pronunciation of name is not you. However you remain unchanged.
Similarly the words printed in Vedas or their pronunciations are not eternal. However the knowledge that they represent is eternal.
3. Alternatively, Vedas represent eternal knowledge. The best representation of Vedas in sound is the mantras we chant and best representation of Vedas in vision is the print of mantras. This is just like best representation of you on a plain paper is your photo.
Because we are ignorant, we are unable to grasp the full meaning of Vedas from what we listen or see. But in Ishwar’s perfection, which is devoid of such ignorance, Vedas represent eternal knowledge.
4. As we progress in our efforts to free ourselves from ignorance, Vedas become clearer and clearer to us. That is why it is fruitless to simply mug up Vedic mantras. What is actually mugged up is non-eternal. Only when those mantras become representation of knowledge they imply, that we actually understand the eternal Vedas.
5. This eternity is what differentiates Vedas from other books like Quran, Bible etc. Because Vedas represent eternal knowledge that can be progressively grasped to utmost capacity of soul only when progressively freed from ignorance, blind belief in book called Vedas or sounds of mantras without understanding them is fruitless. Because when we do so, we are trying to master the non-eternal. Unless and until that relationship with eternal knowledge exists, mugging up Vedas, or worshipping cover of Vedas, or believing that Vedas worship will lead us to Heaven even though we do not understand it, is sheer stupidity.
6. Thus this concept of eternity forms the foundation of principle of tolerance imbibed in Vedas. There is no concept of compulsion or blind belief like in Islam or Christianity. Vedas are not supposed to represent beginning points of blind belief for ignorant souls. On contrary, Vedas represent the ultimate benchmarks of knowledge that can be fully understood when fully devoid of ignorance. So one is expected to simply follow path of truth, do thorough introspection, extend one’s capabilities and then embrace Vedas in a more organic manner rather than through brute-force blind faith.
Doubt: When the universe dissolves completely, even the books of Vedas get destroyed and even study of Vedas stops. Why are then Vedas eternal?
1. As discussed earlier, Vedas do not represent books, paper, ink etc. They represent ‘relation’ between Shabda (sound/word) and knowledge. In other words, they are the ‘best or most perfect representation’ of eternal knowledge in sound/words. When the universe dissolves, even then the eternal knowledge remains same in Ishwar. It is in hidden form, because there is no creation to manifest it in sounds/words. But just as sapling remains hidden in seed, Vedas still remain and germinate when creation happens again and opportunity arises to represent this eternal knowledge in sound/words.
2. Rigveda 10.190.3 states that Ishwar creates the universe exactly in same manner as it created previously. Thus in all creations, the same sounds/words perfectly represent the eternal knowledge of Vedas. Hence the same Vedas, as we see or hear today, represent the eternal knowledge always without an iota of change.
3. And hence in each creation, Ishwar institutes the method of preserving Vedas in same manner through Paatha Vidhis and Maatra markups as earlier. Thus Vedas remain as protected even in mundane world as always.
Doubt: As per texts of grammar, union of certain alphabets lead to change and removal of alphabets as in Sandhi. Thus words would be different when separated and when united. How can then words be eternal?
1. As discussed above, such rules of grammar are only effects. They are not cause – the knowledge. Even when words change as per rules of grammar, the knowledge they represent remains eternal. Hence Vedas remain eternal.
2. As per Aarsh texts, Shabda or words mean the “meaning” that is embraced when we hear from ears, see from eyes, speak from ‘mouth’ and understand from ‘intellect’. Thus Shabda is not non-eternal, only physical process of grasping or propagating Shadba is.
3. If you and me say the same word, both produce different sound patterns. But the meaning is unchanged. Hence Vedas – the knowledge of Ishwar – is eternal regardless of way we speak or combine words as per grammar.
Doubt: Even Shabda get destroyed after pronunciation. And they do not exist before pronunciation. How can then Shabda be eternal?
1. This is the problem. You are misrepresenting the meaning of ‘Shabda’ as per your own conceptions. As discussed earlier, Shabda represents relationship with knowledge. This relationship is eternal and unchanged. Pronunciation is an effect and hence not eternal. But regardless of pronunciation happening or not, the relation of a particular pronunciation with the meaning it represents is eternal.
2. In fact all Shabda are eternal, as propounded by scholars of grammar like Panini and Vyas. And hence those Shabda that represents eternal knowledge to maximize our bliss – the Vedas – are also eternal.
All the Darshans – Meemansa by Jaimini (1.1.18), Vaisheshik by Kanad ( 1.1.3), Nyaya by Gautam (2.1.67), Yoga by Patanjali (1.26), Sankhya by Kapil (5.51) and Vedanta by Vyas (1.1.3) consider Shadba to be eternal. Shankaracharya also states the same in his commentary on Vedanta.
Finally, Yajurveda 40.8 lists the properties of Ishwar as follows:
Paryagat – Omnipresent,
Shukram – All-powerful,
Avranam – Without any gaps,
Asnaviram – Without nerves, arteries and veins,
Shuddham – Perfectly devoid of ignorance or miseries
Apaapaviddham – Pious
Kavi – Knower of all
Manishi – Intelligent
Paribhoo – Controls everything and everyone
Swayambhoo – Unborn
Shashwateebhya – Eternal
Arthan Vyadadhaat – Provides true knowledge
Hence he eternally provides us with His true eternal knowledge of Vedas.
Further, something cannot happen from nothing and existence cannot spring up from non-existence. Hence if Vedas are available today, they have to be eternal always. If Ishwar has always been the same, he shall always bless us with his eternal knowledge.
We see that experience gives rise to sanskaars (tendencies or habits), sanskaars give rise to memory and we use this memory to decide what to accept and what to reject. One who studies Sanskrit creates sanskaars of Sanskrit in his mind and one who studies Latin creates sanskaars of Latin in his mind. Thus, if Ishwar did not give guidance of Vedas in inception of civilization, no human could have experienced knowledge and without experience even sanskaar of knowledge would not have been possible. Without sanskaar, even memory would have failed and hence growth of knowledge would not have been possible. Thus unless Ishwar kickstarts this process at inception of civilization, this process of pursuit of knowledge would not have started at all, just as it did not start in other species of animal world.
Doubt: But even by normal actions, humans feel pain and pleasure and they could have used that to gradually enhance knowledge and then create Vedas. Why then we need to believe that Ishwar created Vedas?
We have already discussed this doubt in article on Origin of Vedas. We deduced that no species or even tribes in jungles or an isolated child can enhance knowledge beyond most primitive level barely sufficient for survival, unless provided knowledge externally.
For example, Chimpanzees do not feel the need to introspect on death and life even when they see so many of them dying. If humans think so much on this, it has to have origin through external training. Unless Ishwar guides us at beginning of civilization, we would remain animals.
Eternal Ishwar and His eternal knowledge
Eternal entities have eternal traits. And non-eternal entities have non-eternal traits. Because the entity is identified by its traits only.
Destruction is nothing but disaggregation of elements that create something to be no more perceived by our senses; and creation is combination of elements to form something that can be perceived by senses.
Thus only those objects are created or destroyed in which aggregation and disaggregation is feasible.
Since Ishwar is omnipresent without gaps, it is impossible for Ishwar to disaggregate. Hence Ishwar is eternal and so is His knowledge.
Vaishek 4.1 states that only that is non-eternal which is effect of some other cause. For example, the pot was effect of clay coming together. So pot is non-eternal. Similarly, clay was effect of certain atoms coming together. So clay is also non-eternal. But fundamental entity that forms the atoms is eternal.
In same way Ishwar is also eternal as He is not effect of any other cause. And hence His knowledge – the Vedas – is also eternal.
This article in Gujrati is also available at http://agniveer.com/eternity-of-vedas-gu/
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Please see the video Scientific verification of Vedas, worth seeing. do a google search and be proud of Indian Heritage
Rig Veda 10.90.10
तस्माद यज्ञात सर्वहुत रचः सामानि जज्ञिरे |
छन्दांसिजज्ञिरे तस्माद यजुस्तस्मादजायत ||
This verse from rig veda says that vedas such as rig , sama and yaju came from the yagya performed that was performed for Lord. So what does arya samaj has to say about it?
It says the source of vedas is not formless purusha but purusha who has head and eye. Can anyone throw light on rig veda 10.90.1-10.90.16 verses
Regards Haridas
@Haridas
Namaste,
Which word in the Mantra means "For Lord"? Mantra uses "Panchami Vibhakti" of Vyakaran, which means "from" and not "for". Thus "Tasmaat" means "from that". Regarding the word "Yajnaat", refer Shatpath Brahman, Nighantu, and Rigvedaadi Bhashya Bhumika, which have translated "Yajna" as Eeshvar [Yajno Vai Vishnuh]. Thus the Mantra says-"All the four Vedas have been created by Eeshvar ".
Where does it say head and eye? You want to know about Purush Sukta. Brother be specific, which Mantra do you think talks of head and eye of Eeshvar? Please remember that at some places, sun and moon have been said to be the eyes of Purusha. But, this is just the poetic way to tell the vastness of Eeshvar in simple words. It has nothing to do with actual eyes, because many places, Vedas clearly state Eeshvar as Nirakar.
Dhanyawad
Bro, does “andhatma pravishanti ye assambhuti mupaste” mean “they sink into darkness, those who worship natural things” ???
@Sunny
Asambhuti means “Prakriti”, which is smallest form of matter and is “Upaadan Kaaran” (material cause) of the physical world. So, Mantra says that those who worship Prakriti, sink into darkness. The essence of this whole Mantra is that only Eeshvar is worthy to be worshipped alone out of three eternal entities i.e. Eeshvar, Aatma, and Prakriti.
i thought asambhuti was ignorance a fellow arya samaji told me the vedas is quite on idol worship
The purport of the Mantra is worship the creator and not the created.
Arya ,
Can you provide translation of Rig Veda 10.90.10
Also pls refer to Haridas’s explanation.
What for this Yagna was done?.
@Chandra
Mantra says-“All the four Vedas have been created by Eeshvar, who is also the ultimate cause of all the creation”.
Yajna means an act which involves no selfishness but only intention for the betterment of others. In the Mantra all the creation has been called a result of Eeshvar’s Yajna, because this universe has been created by Eeshvar for helping souls in getting salvation by giving them the opportunities to do noble deeds.
a brother has refuted the eternity of vedas………see here
http://www.theintellectual.info/religion/hinduism…
@aamir
Well that guy goes on with his self created theories and as usual discards all comments of any criticism.
Moreover, Instead of moving In, the fact is the Indian civilization spread from the Indus Valley Civilization (one of the oldest one) at current Pakistan to Shri Lanka (where Ram Setu is present). Gujrat where Dwarka is present and beyond. It even spread up to Saudi Arabia where seal of king Vikramaditya are still present and are denied by muslims. Persian is definitely a product of Devnagri Script including many more languages (perhaps urdu as well).
The civilization spread far and wide until it was weakened in defense at all the Buddhist influence countries which were immediately swallowed by triumphant Islam along with indolent hindu kingdoms. Strong Hindu kingdoms still sustained against these parasites.
@aamir
Its just like saying the Father was born from the son. LOL.
Although the novice Islam which started 1400 years ago in 600A.D. has nothing to take with the histories of the far ancient civilizations. But Islam is based on negative logic since inception. Its just like a dwarf which tries to push everyone around down to push itself up. So, I would like you to look at the facts. In 639 A D only Islam captured Iran, but the Persian civilization had been Invaded and occupied by Greeks, Arabs, Turks, Mongols, and other. Moreover, the continuous historical settlements date back up to 4000BC.
Here is the Indian Submerged City which dates far earlier to it. And not only this, many more yet found later.
Sunken City Off India Coast-
7500 B. C.?
© 2002 by Linda Moulton Howe
Surat, India – A month ago in mid-January, marine scientists in India announced they had sonar images of square and rectangular shapes about 130 feet down off the northwestern coast of India in the Gulf of Khambhat (Cambay). Not only are their sonar shapes with 90-degree angles, the Indian Minister of Science and Technology ordered that the site be dredged. What was found has surprised archaeologists around the world and was the subject of a private meeting two weeks ago attended by the Indian Minister in charge of investigating the underwater site about thirty miles off the coast from Surat.
An American who traveled to that private meeting was Michael Cremo, researcher in the history of archaeology for the Bhakti Vedanta Institute in India and author of the book Forbidden Archaeology. I talked with him today in India about the dredging operation, what the ocean engineers found and the implications of first carbon dating of artifacts at more than 9,000 years.
Michael Cremo, Researcher of Ancient Archaeology
and Author, Forbidden Archaeology
"Within the past few months, the engineers began some dredging operations there and they pulled up human fossil bones, fossil wood, stone tools, pieces of pottery and many other things that indicated that it indeed was a human habitation site that they had. And they were able to do more intensive sonar work there and were able to identify more structures. They appeared to have been laid out on the bank of a river that had been flowing from the Indian subcontinent out into that area.
According to the news releases, they have done a radiocarbon testing on a piece of wood from the underwater site that is now yielding an age of 9,500 years which would place it near the end of the last Ice Age.
Yes, those are the indications that are coming. There were actually two radiocarbon dates: one about 7500 years old and another about 9500 years old. The 9500 year old one seems to be the strongest one. That's the one they are going with. This was announced by Minister Joshi (Murli Manohar Joshi is Indian Minister for Ocean Technology) at this meeting I attended in Hyderabad, India. He said there is going to be more work going on. It's difficult because it's very difficult to see down there. There is a very swift current. So, it's going to have to be a pretty massive effort, but he said the government of India is willing to put the resources behind it to do whatever it takes to further confirm these discoveries…
Now, another American archaeologist, Richard Meadows of Harvard University, is proposing there should be an international effort here. On the surface that sounds like a good idea, but it also may be an effort of American archaeologists and others to control the project. I don't think they want to see a civilization being as old as it appears to be according to these new finds at 9500 years ago. So, I would hope the Indian archaeologists and government would be very cautious about letting outsiders in there who might have a different agenda and who might try to control what gets let out about this very important discovery. It could be quite revolutionary.
Cultural Background of People At Underwater Site?
Even if we don't know what the cultural background of the people is, if it does happen to be a city that is 9500 years old, that is older than the Sumerian civilization by several thousand years. It is older than the Egyptian, older than the Chinese. So it would radically affect our whole picture of the development of urban civilization on this planet.
Now, if it further happens that additional research is able to identify the culture of the people who lived in that city that's now underwater, if it turns out they are a Vedic people – which I think is quite probable given the location of this off the coast of India – I think that would radically change the whole picture of Indian history which has basically been written by western archaeologists.
India's Vedic Culture – Was It Really Older Than 3500 Years?
The most archaic Sanskrit (Devanagari) is that of the Vedas, multiple books written in thousands of hymns and verses arranged in song cycles. The Vedas say that "God-men" brought Sanskrit to Earth men as a language of musical tones.
hi agniveer or to whoever this may concern, is it possible that through the last thought before death if i am thinking of an animal then i will have to transmigrate to an animals body?
Steve has written:
Yajur Veda Adhyay (Chapter) 13; Mantra (Verse) 37 says that :
“O Learned man! You have gained knowledge from ancient scholars. You are charitable. Join your trained horses to your chariots, ready to face your enemy and establish yourself on the throne on justice.”
Here ancient scholars means that when Vedas were revealed it was after many days.So only it speaks of ancient scholars . So ONLY it is not eternal.
Now How Can you guys explain this???
So Only Buddha rejected Vedas..
@DALIT (hope you will not continue to be so)
Which word in this Mantra gives you the meaning “ancient”? Mantra has the word “Poorvyah”, which means “before”. So, for those four Rishis, who were given Vedas, “Poorvyah” is Eeshvar because He possessed the knowledge of Vedas from beginningless time. And for the next scholars, Eshvar and those four Rishis…. etc will be taken by “Poorvyah”.
So ONLY Vedas are eternal. I hope you will accept Vedas now and correct the mistake of our ancestors.
Arya brothers, muslims are criticizing this mantra.
“Homage to the conquering, piercing Lord of assailing bands, homage to the towering sword-bearer, to the Master of thieves homage! Homage to the gliding robber, to the roamer, to the Master of forests homage! Homage to the cheat, to the arch-deceiver, to the Master of stealers homage! Homage to the wearer of sword and quiver, to the Master of robbers homage! Homage to the boltarmed murderers, to the Master of thieves homage! Homage to the sword-bearers, to those who roam at night, to the Master of looters homage! 22 To the turban-wearing haunter of mountains, Master of land-grabbers homage! Homage to you who bear arrows and to you who carry bows. Homage to you with bent bows, and to you who adjust your arrows, to you who draw the bow and to you who shoot be homage! 23 Homage to you who let fly and to you who pierce, homage to you who sleep and to you who wake, homage to you who lie and to you who sit, homage to you who stand and to you who run.
[Yajur Veda Adyay 16; Mantras 20-23]
Can you clearify right meaning please?
@TOTAGOTO
Check these three images for the correct meanings, if u can read Hindi ….
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ZkBs_AWcmH8/TI4437qlusI/AAAAAAAAAHo/W44aT2Wd9zM/s576/p552.jpg
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ZkBs_AWcmH8/TI44SQWbvMI/AAAAAAAAAHQ/iktpskCPilo/s512/p553.jpg
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_ZkBs_AWcmH8/TI45WrdJwVI/AAAAAAAAAIM/kpLMAXAg2V4/s576/p554.jpg
@TOTAGOTO
Brother, giving you the link where you will find the Hindi translation of these Mantras. Please let me know if still have difficulty?
@TOTAGOTO
Brother, giving you the link where you will find the Hindi translation of these Mantras. Please let me know if still have difficulty?
http://www.aryasamajjamnagar.org/yajurveda/yajurveda.htm
arya brother i am a bangali. better if you give english.
@TOTAGOTO
Brother, providing you the message of these Mantras, not giving word to word translation. Would request any of our brother/sister to do that from Hindi translation available at
http://www.aryasamajjamnagar.org/yajurveda/yajurveda.htm
Mantra 20. People should help those, who are in search of something good, who protect us from enemies with their weapons, who obey their parents and take care of others. We should help those with food, who fight and kill the robbers and who are the protectors of forests.
Mantra 21, 22, 23. King should protect his people from the robbers. All those who create trouble for people in day and night should be killed. And king should honour those, who kill the thugs.
Essence of the above Mantras is that we all should help our soldiers, who kill the terrorists, robbers and anti social elements so that we can live peacefully.
thts why muslims misinterpret it. because they are supporter of osama bin laden
Mankind have to face all the problems in the name of religion i.e. genocide etc.
[…] of Vedas and Eternity of […]
If the Vedas are just representations of an eternally existing knowledge, I have a couple of questions on the nature of this knowledge:
1. Is it reasonable to assume that this knowledge can explain the state of the Universe (and by inclusion the Earth) at any point in the past or the future?
2. Can this knowledge known only by humans or can life forms like bacteria too can know it? If yes, how do bacteria gain this knowledge. If no, why can’t they?
@Anir
Brother, we believe Vedas to be the knowledge of Eeshvar/God Himself. I know you dont believe in God so talking about His knowledge would be too early at this point of time. Lets settle the issue of existence of Eeshvar/God first. We are continuing the discussion on the same on other post, hope will resolve it.
Anyway, assuming that God exists and Vedas are His knowledge, here are brief replies to your questions
1. Yes, but one needs purity of soul to gather this knowledge. It is not correct to assume that Vedas contain information about the state of universe at every moment, but definitely, it must have those laws which can be used to derive the status of universe at any time.
2. This knowledge is known in human form only. It has philosophical reasons related to Karm Phal theory rather than biology. In short, souls doing bad deeds are given other forms than human in which the tendency to do bad gets neutralized (it is again related to soul, so cant provide you the material evidence). In these forms, soul cant do much from its side, i.e. its free will is restricted so that it cant get down further. In such state, it is not capable of using or even understanding the knowledge. This is evident from the nature. Human is the only species which gains and enhance knowledge. Rest other species do not do anything new, they just survive with the inbuilt qualities. Humans fly in the sky, monkeys dont!
I know you will put questions on it, but I think we should resolve God issue first.
Thanks
I’m not interested in the issue of god. We both know where we stand on that issue. I need intersubjective and reproducible evidence, but for you qualia is proof enough. We differ in the epistemology we have chosen, so that issue cannot be resolved.
But what I am interested is in settling the issue of claims of universal/eternal knowledge in the Vedas. Because the word “Universal” means all encompassing that includes the observed world. Same goes with “eternal” which deals with time, which is again a property of the observed Universe. So given that, I want to know if my questions can be answered. If not, it would mean the knowledge of the Vedas is not as what is claimed. I have no problem if someone says Vedas can answer all questions on qualia because currently, it science cannot quantify it. But outside of qualia, we encounter fact propositions which have to stand the test of science because it is the only tool we have for evaluating fact propositions.
For example, in the answer to my first question, you answered that Vedic knowledge must have some laws by which one can determine the state of the Universe. Now that is a fact proposition. Either the Vedas can describe the observed properties of the Universe or they cannot. It is easy to setup an experiment and test either claim.
The second question is related to qualia. Currently there is no way I can feel the same qualia as another human being. I may feel something close since we share the same biological machinery and there is no evidence as to qualia existing independent of this machinery, but I can’t know another persons qualia.
Now, supposing that bacteria have qualia, at moment we don’t know how to feel it. That is the very nature of qualia. I might feel a very strong emotion, the kind of which can explain a giant jigsaw puzzle at which I have been wondering for a long time and after my experience all the puzzle pieces just dazzlingly fall into place and everything starts to makes sense. That is my qualia. I cannot guarantee that your qualia will be the same.
Whereas a fact proposition like attraction between two bodies is inversely related to the distance between them can be repeatedly tested and can be proven to yield consistent results.
Check out some of these interesting scientific concepts known to humankind thousands of years ago – all contained in the Hindu Vedas and Puranas, which revealed facts only recently discovered or proven by scientists. It is beyond reason that anyone even before ‘Adam and Eve walked on Earth’ have known these facts, discovered or proven only recently with advanced equipment and sophisticated scientific methods.
Sphericity of Earth
The existence of rather advanced concepts like the sphericity of the Earth and the cause of seasons is quite clear in Vedic literature. For example, the Aitareya Brahmana (3.44) declares:
“The Sun does never set nor rise. When people think the Sun is setting it is not so. For after having arrived at the end of the day it makes itself produce two opposite effects, making night to what is below and day to what is on the other side. Having reached the end of the night, it makes itself produce two opposite effects, making day to what is below and night to what is on the other side. In fact, the Sun never sets.”
’Shape of Earth is like an Oblate Spheroid’.
Rig VedaXXX. IV. V
‘Earth is flattened at the poles’.
Markandeya Purana 54.12
Sixty-four centuries before Isaac Newton, the Hindu Rig-Veda asserted that gravitation held the universe together. The Sanskrit speaking Aryans subscribed to the idea of a spherical earth in an era when the Greeks believed in a flat one. The Indians of the fifth century A.D. calculated the age of the earth as 4.3 billion years; scientists in 19th century England were convinced it was 100 million years.”
Polar Days and Nights
“For the period when the sun is north it is visible for six months at the North Pole and invisible at the south, and vice versa.”
(Ibid Sutara)
Now lets see what Hindu scriptures say about the movement of earth:
Earth’s rotation
“The Earth rotates in two ways by the Will of Brahma. First, it rotates on its axis and secondly it revolves around the Sun. Days and Nights are distinguished when it moves on its axis. Season change when it revolves around Sun”. (Vishnu Puran)
The Universe
”There are suns in all directions, the night sky being full of them. And there are planets in all directions around them.
(Rig Veda)
And we’ve just started discovering planets in other ‘Solar systems’!!
“Then he began creation with plasma, which created smoke. From that smoke the entire universe came into existence. Then the universe began to expand by the Will of Brahma and it will go on to do the same in future. He then made ‘Heavens and Earths’ from the Golden part of the egg”.
Brahama Puran
Now let’s see what Modern Science Says about this:
The science of modern cosmology, observational and theoretical, clearly indicates that, at one point in time, the whole universe was nothing but a cloud of ‘smoke’ (i.e. an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition).This is one of the undisputed principles of standard modern cosmology. Scientists now can observe new stars forming out of the remnants of that ‘smoke’.
“Before creation, it was only the Brahman that was everywhere. There was no day, night or sky. First I created the waters. And in the waters I sowed the seeds of Brahmanda. From this seed there developed an egg which began to float on the waters. This egg is known as Brahamand (Universe)”.
We have finally come to the conclusion that the Universe is shaped like an egg, but this information was already present in Hindu Literature thousands of years ago!
Alan Kogut, NASA
Light
“Seven horses draw the chariot of Surya (Sun)”.
Rig Veda
Further, it states these seven horses are the seven colors compromising light.
What modern science says about this:
Sunlight is made up of all the colors of the rainbow: violet, indigo, red, orange, yellow, green, and blue. The gas molecules in the atmosphere interact with the sunlight before the light reaches our eyes.
Earth’s atmosphere and it’s protective Ozone Layer
“After the formation of the earth planet, Brahma created atmosphere in a group of seven, from that formation oceans began to exist, and the first forms of life appeared on the earth planet. Atmosphere was created as a protective skin of earth.The atmosphere surrounds the earth up to a height of 60 miles, and clouds, lightning and the like are all phenomena connected with it”.
Shrimad Bhagwatam
Let’s see what modern science says:
Ozone is a relatively unstable molecule found in Earth’s atmosphere. Most ozone is concentrated below a 30-mile (48-km) height. Although it represents only a tiny fraction of the atmosphere, ozone is crucial for life on Earth. Ozone acts as a shield to protect Earth’s surface from the sun’s harmful ultraviolet radiation. Without this shield, we would be more susceptible to skin cancer, cataracts, and impaired immune systems.
Tides:
“In all the oceans the water remains at all times the same in quantity and never increases or diminishes; but like the water in a cauldron, which in consequence of its combination with heat, expands, so the waters of the ocean swell with the increase of the Moon. The waters, although really neither more nor less, dilate or contract as the Moon increases or wanes in the light and dark fortnights…..”
Vishnu Purana
The creation of the Moon
“In the initial stages of the creation of the Universe some creation material slipped from the hands of Brahma and collided with Earth resulting in the formation of the Moon.”
Brahmand Purana
The idea in a nutshell:
At the time Earth formed 4.5 billion years ago, other smaller planetary bodies were also growing. One of these hit earth late in Earth’s growth process, blowing out rocky debris. A fraction of that debris went into orbit and formed the Moon.
And finally…..
“The Sun is the center of a small system which includes 9 planets including Earth. The Sun holds more than 98% mass of this small system in this giant universe which contains millions of suns”.
Rig Veda
Strawman. I try to chose my words carefully when commenting. This is the premise of my arguments:
But what I am interested is in settling the issue of claims of universal/eternal knowledge in the Vedas. Because the word “Universal” means all encompassing that includes the observed world. Same goes with “eternal” which deals with time, which is again a property of the observed Universe.
According to that if the Vedas cannot explain even one observed property of the Universe, the universality of them is negated.
@Anir : seems now you have an issue with the linguistic usage words Universal/Eternal ( the modified word is “Knowledge”),
Now you have to see the entire usage “Universal/eternal Knowledge”, it means that the knowledge which is VALID Universally . you will not find the knowledge of how to tie a knot and how to peel an orange as that would also be knowledge that one gains as being part of this universe.
In the same way is the adjective eternal is also used e.g when the veda say the life of the planet is 4.5 billion years, it is eternal and universal knowledge both, where is the issue?!!
if i say that 2 molecules of H and 1 molecule of O makes water, then it is universal/Eternal knowledge or isn’t it?
BTW the word veda itself means knowledge, when you put the context “universality of them is negated” you make veda sound like a universal remote, if it does not work for a new TV the universality is negated,But alas we are talking about KNOWLEDGE,
Now to a normal human being who has working knowledge of language English would understand that.
Thanks for the clarification. So the Vedas do not contain knowledge about all of the observed Universe.
Also, where is the evidence that the Vedas predict the age of Earth as 4.5 billion years? And remember, you are making a fact proposition. The evidence that is needed for a thing like that should have been validated by the scientific method. That means, I’ll need some hard data. Not some vedic verse, but data from the real world.
@Anir : Hard data? i don’t think that would invoke any response..
Bro our discussion would end here.
Btw do try to foster you spiritual side as well..
Take care
The next question that I am expecting from Anir is that Do vedas contain the knowledge that Anir’s father’s sperm and his mother’s ova would indeed mate to produce Anir ! If yes , then where ? If no, then it means vedas don’t contain all the knowledge of the world !
What say Anir ?
Sceintific facts you siad above are almost unbelivable .Can you provide reference ? Atomosphere is exactly 100km(60 m) high. I checked wiki. Please provide which verse in SB says that.
when you said vedas arent scientific i showed you in the aforementioned comment just the 0.01 percent evidence of science that is included within them(of course there is MUCH more) and how modern science is struggling with the concepts. You however are not satisfied even when evidence is presented to you . what can one say?
Rightly said
0.01 % and there is more? Then please answer my original question:
1. Is it reasonable to assume that this knowledge can explain the state of the Universe (and by inclusion the Earth) at any point in the past or the future?
yes but why should i waste my time with a person who could not even accept evidence when presented to him? its like the boy who cried wolf, when evidence is being presented you do not care for it., so why should i present to you more? first understand what god is and then , and ONLY then can we go further. btw, albert einstein(arguably greatest mind of all time) conceded that there is a god however did not have the resources to find out more about this causative agency.
Yet another strawman. I asked a very specific question. I also specifically stated what evidence means in a scientific contest.
*context
first read up on vedic knowledge and tell me what is against science in that. the article above is not against science is it? no it is in concordance with science. so i have given my evidence, it is up to you to disprove vedic knowledge.
Yet another strawman. I asked a very specific question. I also specifically stated what evidence means in a scientific contest.
btw the knowledge of astronomy has been verified by scientists as the same as what is written in vedic wisdom.
Since you are reluctant to answer my previous question and now that you have mentioned astronomy, can you tell me where in the Vedic wisdom is the Saturn’s moon Titan mentioned?
well while your at it i may aswell recite you the whole of vedic wisdom, and even then you will not be convinced. i apologise but i cannot do that as it is too time consuming for me. i gave you a morsel of the type of info in various vedic literature but you cannot expect me to spoon feed you everything. after all im not here to convince you. my suggestion is stop commenting here and post specific questions to the agniveer team. ok? kind regards.
If you had asked me something specific on science I would have happily given it or if I cannot, I would say that I don’t know. This is because I know science. But I don’t know Vedas. That was why I asked a very very specific piece of information – Titan.
if you know vedas your doubts would quell. so do something about it.
Vedas were written before the invention of the telescope, without the help of which one can’t see Titan. So according to me it is highly unlikely (I would have said surely, but then I don’t know Vedas) that one would find any information regarding Titan in the Vedas. Is that why you aren’t able to answer either in the affirmative or in the negative?
science is getting to it..(slowly but sure it will get there some day )
http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/article1011760.ece?homepage=true
What do you mean that science is getting to it? That Israel, the chosen land of the Christian God, has evidence of Adam/Eve?
And remember skepticism is an integral part of science.
And here is some _real_ science on human origin.
LOL,well it was directed towards evolution theory..(not otherwise i.e Adam and eve and Israel)
anyways i or you wont be alive to see that science itself would scientifically state that evolution did not happen.
its just that time does not leave evidence for long..and documentation of findings and knowledge is not permanent and knowledge does not get transferred fully from one to another generation…perfectly,that why science has to reinvent the wheel now.
adios brother.
Anyways i or you wont be alive to see that science itself would scientifically state that evolution did not happen.
Mere speculation.
its just that time does not leave evidence for long..and documentation of findings and knowledge is not permanent and knowledge does not get transferred fully from one to another generation…perfectly,that why science has to reinvent the wheel now.
That statement is a non-sequitur.
While the part on knowledge transfer may have been true a few decades ago, it is not true anymore. Digital storage can last for hundreds of years and with new technologies being invented with even more storage capacity and better reliability and data from older technology devices can be moved to new technology devices *without any data loss/corruption*.
We don’t live in the Vedic age where data had to be stored in the human brain by the technology of rote learning and even then it took a few years to store the relevant data. Today the same can be done by computers in a few seconds. To use your own words, science maybe reinventing the wheel, but whereas the wheel earlier used to make one revolution per year, today science makes the same wheel go millions of revolutions per second (metaphorically speaking).
the technologies that you are talking about wont last a sec in a severe natural calamity.
the buildings build by the ancients still stand after thousands of years… look at the pyramids.., anghorwat etc.(testimony to the existence of those who lived)
“but whereas the wheel earlier used to make one revolution per year, today science makes the same wheel go millions of revolutions per second (metaphorically speaking).”
you said this coz the knowledge is lost of the ancient times where aerial vehicles where much faster than those found today and used to run of solar energy ( only traces of vimaan shashtra are available today)
so bro.. science will keep looking for it and one fine day (may be or not) will accept what the veda profess about the creator and the creation
Till then … chow..
the technologies that you are talking about wont last a sec in a severe natural calamity.
Really? Have you heard about nuclear bunkers or underground vaults that are designed precisely for the purpose of surviving doomsday scenarios? And there is also an unstated false premise lurking in your argument – that there is some other non-scientific form of technology which can survive those calamities.
As to Angkor Wat/Pyramids, the same can be built today at a rate many times faster than people took back then and at the same time, using far less resources. That only makes my case – science makes things easier.
you said this coz the knowledge is lost of the ancient times where aerial vehicles where much faster than those found today and used to run of solar energy ( only traces of vimaan shashtra are available today)
No. You are willfully misrepresenting my position.
And, vimaan shastra? Please be realistic. Didn’t you know that it actually was copied from the knowledge given by an ancestor of Harry Potter? But people who copied it, didn’t get to know of the broomstick, the most perfect flying machine ever invented. And it doesn’t even need solar energy! It runs on magic!
so bro.. science will keep looking for it and one fine day (may be or not) will accept what the veda profess about the creator and the creation
Another mere speculation.
ya you are right.. bunkers.. will be saved in earthquakes and plate movements..
Your are fascinated with Harry potter 🙂
just remembered ; you said that Vedas don’t explain death and consciousness(as science cannot),how did you know that
ya you are right.. bunkers.. will be saved in earthquakes and plate movements..
If you are going to argue from science (plate movements), can you please tell me of a case where all plates on Earth move in a such a way that all technology on Earth is destroyed? If that is the case can humans survive it? As I said, your line of reasoning hinges on an unstated false premise. You can’t keep building arguments on that.
just remembered ; you said that Vedas don’t explain death and consciousness(as science cannot),how did you know that
How did I know that? Well, since Vedas posit a supernatural realm for after death and for consciousness (correct me if I’m wrong), but we still inhabit the natural word and if the Vedas are right, then at some point there has to be a transition from the natural world to the supernatural and the natural side of the transition is very much accessible to science, but has never been found, and if the argument is that such an interface can never be known, then it can safely be said that natural and supernatural can never mix and whatever humans think as supernatural is merely an illusion cooked up their brains.
Also, there is plenty of evidence from neuroscience as to the human brain’s capacity to conjure up non-existent things. Such experiences have to be ruled out before we even turn towards the supernatural. Otherwise there is absolutely no way of telling if someone really has experienced the supernatural or if their brain has cooked it up. Do you have any method that can differentiate those two cases?
the method is ashtang yog..
nothing is real than an experience. if someone gets slapped, one may write it n number of scientific equations and phenomenon that happen in the body, but that would not be a experience.
same is the case with spirituality.
i.e unless one gets slapped one would not what exactly it is.. no matter if i slap a rat in the lab and reproduce the effect on some other “lab thing” and document the Slap phenomena as science.
As you long as one does not experience what is written in veda is right(or wrong) at the “experince level” there is no way of proving or disproving anything.
Someone asked me if Vedas had so much knowledge, was that ever used? Can you clarify, please?
Albert Einstein
(1879 -1955):
“When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous.”
“We owe a lot to the Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made.“
@Aryavratast
nothing is real than an experience. if someone gets slapped, one may write it n number of scientific equations and phenomenon that happen in the body, but that would not be a experience.
same is the case with spirituality.
i.e unless one gets slapped one would not what exactly it is.. no matter if i slap a rat in the lab and reproduce the effect on some other “lab thing” and document the Slap phenomena as science.
As you long as one does not experience what is written in veda is right(or wrong) at the “experince level” there is no way of proving or disproving anything.
Thank you for proving my point. You cannot prove or disprove subjective experience. And yet you were laughing at my fascination with Harry Potter. He is real in my subjective experience. And in my subjective experience, the way of the Potter is the one true way to enlightenment. Do you deny that? If so why?
I would not deny it.. i will put it to test.
Anyways, if Harry potter is the true way to enlightenment can you share the kriya that one has to
undergo to reach enlightenment.
and please document very stage that one goes while following the path,(which you already would have gone thorough)
I would not deny it.. i will put it to test.
How can you test an experience? On what basis will you verify the test results?
thats what i have been telling you all the way.. the experience has the match exactly as to what has been documented in the kriya..
and that’s how you vefiry..
But how do I know that you are having the experience as intended by the Way Of The Potter? It involves thinking the right thoughts. Since I cannot examine your experience, how do I know that you are thinking the right thoughts?
that’s the whole point , spirituality is not imagination(created by the mind).
The first thing to do is to subdue the mind and its functions
only then can one proceed with “the experience” that the veda talks about.
As long as the mind is doing its usual behavior i.e driving the actions till then nothing can be experienced, its only when the self (you will have to read the veda or upnishad) is in control the experience is achieved.
The Veda has all the while been telling as long as one does not control the senses (specifically the mind) there is NO progress to be made.
one will be lost in the games of the mind.(that’s what is called imagination and wild thoughts/ fantasies )
You didn’t answer my question – “But how do I know that you are having the experience as intended by the Way Of The Potter?” I was not talking about the Vedas. I was talking about my real experience with the Way Of The Potter.
There is no way for you to know what i am experiencing, that the crux.. you have to know(not just claim) it on your own… and then judge.
How do you know that ones does not know, but just claims it ? And how are you going to judge an quantity that is unknowable to everyone except the person who experiences it?
well, there is no need to judge what other individual is experiencing. there is no need at all for that.. that the beauty of it, it is for everyone but cannot be expressed in terms that can be in terms of the gross world.
if someone just claims (false one) that is his/her problem(thats why there are so may false gurus and all)
but that does not mean that the real thing does not exist, and that is the reason veda say that everyone has to experience it for himself/herself there is not short cut ..
“Knowing is not experiencing”
@Aryavratast,
“well, there is no need to judge what other individual is experiencing. there is no need at all for that.. that the beauty of it, it is for everyone but cannot be expressed in terms that can be in terms of the gross world.
.
.
but that does not mean that the real thing does not exist, and that is the reason veda say that everyone has to experience it for himself/herself there is not short cut ..”
So if someone knows that they have found enlightenment, but not by any means that you subscribe to, do you agree that they have indeed found enlightenment?
yes indeed. but then again . its not for me to judge , its the one who is in that state; to experience.
it not necessary that enlightenment be achieved by only one particular way, there may be a million ways but the destination and experience must be the same.
So, if one says Vedas aren’t the only path to enlightenment, is he correct?
well in that case, he must have another path that would lead to the same destination .. and i cannot comment if he is right or wrong.. coz i would have to validate the path (as long as i have not already had the ultimate experience)
after all its a choice.
but still the path has to have the basic tenets that do not go against the proved aspects which are bound to have adverse affects on the spiritual progress.. and thus hinder the ultimate experience.
for eg its proved that anger , lust ,greed and violence (any kind) is a hindrance, and if the new path approved of any of this , then its outright to be rejected.
after all a rose smells sweet coz it does and the not the vendor tells it does.
How do you know if someone has reached the destination? Since experience cannot be known to anyone expect the person experiencing it, what counts as a destination?
i told you i dont have to know … about someone..and that destination can be explained only when reached, as i said knowing is not experiencing.
for the destination please read the upnishads or avdhoot geeta. to get a hint.
How can one tell whether one has known or experienced? They both exist as subjective experience. If someone says they have experienced it, will you take their word for it?
And going back to your earlier comment – “but the destination and experience must be the same.”, since we are still in the subjective realm, how do you establish the standard for sameness? How can you judge that one person’s experience is same as the other’s?
Dear Brother Anir,
Who is telling you to believe? Thats the whole question. Veda tell you to experience that yourself. You should experience that not to prove others that you have experienced that. Be it Swami Vivekanada, Swami Dayananda or Ramkrishna Paramhansa, nobody has tried to make others believe that they are enlightened. If one reaches that stage, he becomes more down to earth. His “Aham” , i.e., self pride disappears. He doesn’t need to prove his knowledge, rathet his knowledge speaks itself.
Its good to practise yourself. Thats what Veda teach you – “Don’t accept anything at its face value. Experience that , practise that, seek for truth and if you believe its the actual truth, then accept it, otherwise reject that”.(Note: Obviously Universal truths are exceptions here. You need not experience “Poison” to see if its fatal).
Rajeev
one had to understand, the whole purpose is to experience yourself and not to know or judge whether others have experienced.NOT A CHANCE that a truth seeker will take something at face value; it cannot be taken in any other way except than the first hand experience.
i did not establish anything, when something is absolute, there is nothing out of it..and hence implies that the experience(if that would explain it fully) related to it must be the same.
“has to”
All I’m asking is, how do know one person’s first hand experience is same as another persons. As you said, “it is for everyone but cannot be expressed in terms that can be in terms of the gross world”, so it is not possible at all for someone to verbally say what they experienced and hence not possible at all for another person to know what the other guy has actually experienced. So how can you say that destination should be same when there is no way to establish the sameness?
that proof of the absolute is not what an individual has or will experience, the experience is a consequence and not the cause.
did you not read
“when something is absolute(the only absolute), there is nothing out of it..and hence implies that the experience(if that would explain it fully) related to it must be the same.”
l
@Aryavratast,
did you not read
“when something is absolute(the only absolute), there is nothing out of it..and hence implies that the experience(if that would explain it fully) related to it must be the same.”
So the assumption is that there is something called the only absolute, and based on that assumption, experience related to it must be the same is necessarily true. Since there is no way to experience the absolute without first assuming the absolute and then aiming to experience it, can this be called faith, as I see no provision for defeasibility?
eg .. if a guide book helps one to navigate ones way(saying what the destination looks like) and then when one starts, he is skeptical about the correctness of the guide, then on every instruction he uses his intellect to validate the instruction , and if the instruction is corroborated by his own intellect then he keeps on following the guide, after some time till his confidence builds (as he has validated the guide against his intellect till he is confident of it being right) he uses the subsequent instructions without validating it ,would you call that faith?
one can be convinced only to certain level , the level till its in the realm that the mind understand, once it beyond that.. there is no defense..,you go with it or don’t
Remember that we are talking about subjective experience. A guide book is something that exists outside of subjective experience. The veracity of its navigation can be verified objectively.
one can be convinced only to certain level , the level till its in the realm that the mind understand, once it beyond that.. there is no defense..,you go with it or don’t.
That is exactly what makes it faith. You are absolutely sure that it is true based only on subjective experience.
ya you are right..
@Admin, Bro Vajra
Do you know this guy http://yasharya.wordpress.com/2011/01/30/vedas-are-eternal/
Bro Shravak
I saw his blog long ago. He is doing nice job. But I dont know him personally.
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The knowledge of Ishwar is eternal in lines of eternal powers of Ishwar. Thus Vedas are eternal.
[…] This translation in Gujarati has been contributed by Ronak and Kruti. Original post in English is available at http://agniveer.com/eternity-of-vedas/ […]
[…] – If believing in Vedas be necessary to be follower of Vedic religion, it would mean that those who could not get access to books of 4 Vedas due to geography or poverty etc can never be followers of Vedic religion. Thus Vedic religion becomes religion of ONLY the fortunate ones. And hence, the claim of Supreme in Vedas itself that the knowledge of Vedas is for all human beings regardless of gender or profession or birth goes wrong! (Eternity of Vedas) […]