- Understanding Manu Smriti
- Manu Smriti and Women
- Manu Smriti and Punishment
- Manu Smriti and Shudras
If Agniveer were to list the top two nuisances in India, it would undoubtedly be birth-based caste system and gender discrimination</strIf Agniveer were to list the top two nuisances in India, it would undoubtedly be birth-based caste system and gender discrimination.
Yes, India is plagued by a plethora of challenges today. – Corruption, fundamentalism, terrorism, conversions, moral degradation, lack of education, health issues, sanitation problems and many more. But despite all these problems and threats, the top two – by a wide margin – would remain casteism and gender discrimination.
Because one way or the other, rest of the problems can be attributed to these two core disgraces of our otherwise glorious culture. Until these two problems – that remain the primary causes of almost all our miseries of past and present – are eradicated from the root, the hope of a glorious future would remain nothing more than hallucinations of an insane.
In other words, a prosperous and powerful society cannot co-exist with casteism and gender discrimination.
Please note that casteism and gender discrimination are not specifically Hindu issues. On the contrary, they are more of cultural issues. Gender discrimination has been a global phenomenon for ages. Casteism seems like a South Asian nuisance affecting all societies and religions that breed here, just as color-based racism is a western phenomenon.
However, Hinduism being the oldest culture and fountainhead of all other religions has to accept the blame of polluting the source. Because when these two nuisances were tolerated, the society became weak and deluged with so many different cults and religions leading to further weaknesses. All leading to the present mess and all the messes of past that we know from history.
It is surprising to find even today, many defenders of these two nuisances from otherwise intellectual and educated backgrounds. The virus of birth-based superiority is so strong that it renders even the most rational insane. Many of these virus-affected patients are considered among scholars and leaders of contemporary Hinduism!
They would innocently point to ancient scriptures that justify these nuisances and then attempt to prove the ‘science’ behind consuming this trash. The most popular scripture that is used as a scapegoat is the Manu Smriti – the oldest text on social systems.
In next two chapters, we shall evaluate the Manu Smriti.
Manu Smriti and Dalit Movement
Manu Smriti is among the most controversial texts of Vedic culture. It is not only known as the first codified text on ethics and laws in the world but also as a text promoting blatant casteism. The entire Dalit movement of modern times is based on foundations of protesting against ‘Manuvaad’.
While Manu is a hero for casteists, Dalit leaders typecast Manu as a great villain. Copies of Manu Smriti are burnt in mass to showcase love for backward sections of society by likes of Agnivesh, Mayawati, and many others. Films have been made depicting Manu as a horned devil in the guise of scholar forcing brutal atrocity on lower caste people to fulfill his perverted fetishes. Manu Smriti has become the favorite pasture for scavengers keen on bashing Hinduism and Vedas. This becomes among the most potent tools for promoting conversion away from Hinduism. And interestingly most of these Manu bashers perhaps never ever gave Manu Smriti a serious reading!
On the other side, for sadist forces within Hinduism who want to fool themselves and others on the basis of their so-called birth superiority, Manu Smriti is a religious text that gives them the divine authority to deny fair treatment to one section of population merely because they were not born special. They would quote from fake adulterated verses of Manu Smriti that smell of casteism and gender discrimination, conveniently ignoring the plethora of shlokas that speak exactly the opposite.
The tussle between these two forces has not only shaped the current cheap politics of Bharat but has been a major factor leading to foreign invasions of last 1000 years. This wretched caste system was the prime reason we could not defend our nation against barbaric invaders. This illogical caste-system was the prime reason India had to be partitioned in 1947. And this disgusting caste system is the prime reason despite so much of talent and intellectual treasure India is still a sluggish meek spineless snail in the race towards prosperity and power.
Therefore, it becomes utmost necessary to review Manu Smriti and check what it actually stands for.
Three allegations on Manu Smriti
There are three major allegations on Manu Smriti:
• Manu founded the caste system based on birth.
• Manu legalized harsh punishments for Shudras and special provisions for upper-castes and especially Brahmins.
• Manu was anti-women and condemned them. He accorded inferior rights to women.
In this chapter, we will review the first allegation – that Manu was the founder of the birth-based caste system.
Manu Smriti hails from an era when even the concept of birth-based caste system did not exist. Manu Smriti nowhere supports a social system based on birth.
Manu Smriti and Caste System
Maharshi Manu took inspiration from Vedas and proposed a social system based on qualities, actions, and nature of the individual. This is called Varna System. Now the very word Varna derived from root word “Vrinja” means “Choice.” A similar usage happens in commonly used word “Varan” meaning “choosing” or “Var” meaning a husband chosen by the girl. This also shows that the girl had complete right to choose her husband in the Vedic system.
The biggest proof of Manu Smriti proposing Varna System and NOT Caste System is that in the first Chapter of Manu Smriti, there is mention of the origin of four Varnas and no mention of castes or gotras. Had caste or gotra been important, Manu would have mentioned which castes belong to Brahmins, which to Kshatriyas, which to Vaishyas and which to Shudras.
This also means that those who feel proud in calling themselves Brahmins or upper-caste by birth have no evidence to prove so. They can only prove that a few generations of their forefathers also used to call themselves upper-caste. But there is no way to prove that they were upper-castes since the inception of civilization. And when they cannot prove so, what right do they have to allege that a so-called birth-based Shudra was also not a Brahmin several generations ago? And that they themselves were not Shudras a few generations ago!
In fact, Manu Smriti 3.109 clearly states that one who eats by glorifying his Gotra or Family is considered an eater of his own vomit.
As per the Manu Smriti that the self-proclaimed birth based Brahmins or upper-castes believe in, the very act of glorifying their lineage or Gotra to demand special privileges makes them deserving of condemnation.
Manu Smriti 2.136 states that one earns respect due to wealth, company, age, actions, and knowledge in increasing order. There is no mention of family, gotra, caste, lineage and other non-factors to demand or earn respect.
Migration within Varnas
Manu Smriti 10.65: This shloka asserts that Brahmin can become Shudra and Shudra can become Brahmin. Similarly, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas can also change their Varnas.
Manu Smriti 9.335: If a Shudra (uneducated) serves the educated ones, is polite, devoid of ego and stays in the respectful company of knowledgeable ones, he/ she is considered as having a noble birth and stature.
Several shlokas in Manu Smriti state that a person belonging to high Varna falls down to the level of a Shudra (uneducated) if he does not conduct noble deeds. For example:
Manu Smriti 2.104: A person who does not worship the Supreme Lord twice daily should be considered a Shudra.
Manu Smriti 2.172: He who has not been initiated with the teaching of the Vedas is a Sudra.
Manu Smriti 4.245: A Brahmin acquires brilliance through the company of noble persons and avoiding bad company. On the contrary, if he indulges in bad company, he becomes a Shudra.
Clearly, Brahmin refers to a scholarly person who conducts noble deeds. And Shudra refers to an uneducated person. This has nothing to do with birth in any manner.
Manu Smriti 2.168: A Brahmin, Kshatriya or Vaishya who puts efforts in other areas except understanding and following the Vedic precepts becomes a Shudra and his future generations also suffer from ignorance of Vedas.
As per Manu Smriti, today, almost the entire population of India, barring few exceptions, is Shudra. This is because we do not abide by the Vedic concepts and we are indulged in anti-Vedic activities – corruption, casteism, selfishness, superstitions, irrationality, gender-discrimination, sycophancy, immorality, etc.
Manu Smriti 2.126: Even if he is a Brahmin otherwise, a person who does not politely respond to a greeting is actually a Shudra (uneducated person).
Even Shudras can teach
Though Shudra means an uneducated person, a Shudra can also become a teacher for specific knowledge that he has. For example,
Manu Smriti 2.238: One should acquire knowledge even from a person born in a low family otherwise. Similarly, one should accept a noble woman as a wife even if her family is otherwise not up to mark.
Manu Smriti 2.241: If needed, one may acquire knowledge from one who is not a Brahmin; and that he shall follow and serve such a teacher, as long as the instruction lasts.
Status of ‘Brahmin’ is acquired by deeds
As per Manu Smriti, one has to earn the qualification of Brahmin. During childhood, parents are supposed to send their children for the specialized education of Brahmin, Kshatriya or Vaishya depending on observed nature of children. Many Brahmin parents may desire that their children also become Brahmins. However, that is not sufficient. One becomes Brahmin only if he completes the education and not merely by taking birth in a Brahmin family or taking admission in Brahmin course of a gurukul.
Manu Smriti 2.157: A Brahmin devoid of education is equivalent to an elephant made of wood or a deer made of leather. They are merely namesake and not real.
Manu Smriti 2.28: The body is rightfully called Brahmin only through the study of scriptures, discipline, noble, selfless deeds, the study of duties, science and meditation, charity, and goal-oriented actions.
Education is true birth
As per Manu, actual birth happens after completion of education. All human beings are Shudras or uneducated when born. Those who complete their education are supposed to have a new birth. They are called Dwija or Twice Born. Those who were unable to complete the education remain Shudra. This has nothing to do with birth or heredity. This is a pure meritocracy.
Manu Smriti 2.148: When a teacher who is well-versed in Vedas teaches a student the science of Gayatri (that summarizes all principles of Vedas and rational living), then the actual birth of the student takes place. This birth is free from risks of death or destruction and leads the student to immortality.
Forget about being a Brahmin, Kshatriya or Vaishya; one is not considered even a human unless he/she receives an education.
Manu Smriti 2.146: The teacher who provides education is a father who is much greater than the father who gave birth. The knowledge provided by the teacher remains with the soul even after the death and leads him to immortality. But the body provided by father destroys when death comes.
Manu Smriti 2.147: The birth that happens from the womb of the mother after parents’ desire for procreation is an ordinary birth. Real birth happens when the person completes his education.
Citing lineage to showcase casteist superiority is an extremely foolish act as per Manu Smriti. Instead of quoting the clan, one becomes superior by showcasing that he is more educated.
Manu Smriti 10.4: Brahmin, Kshatriya, and Vaishya take second birth after education. Shudra, who could not complete education, is fourth Varna. There is no fifth Varna among Arya or noble people.
This also means that merely because a person did not complete education does not make him a villain. He is still regarded as a noble person if his deeds are noble.
And if he completes the education, he can become a Dwija as well. Shudra is an adjective and NOT a nomenclature for any caste.
Never insult anyone born in lower family
To further ensure that one is not insulted or denied opportunities merely because he/she was born in a family where others did not excel in education, wealth or other parameters of success in society, Maharshi Manu laid the rule very clearly:
Manu Smriti 4.141: Never deny respect and/or rights to a person who is handicapped, uneducated, aged, not handsome, not wealthy or coming from a lower family. These are NOT the parameters to judge a person.
Examples of Varna migration in ancient history
The concept of Varnas – Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra – being merit based and NOT birth based is not merely a theoretical concept. Varna system was practiced in the ancient era. The greatest misery befell on us when our misguided ancestors converted this scientific meritocracy into a foolish birth-based system causing all the miseries we face today.
Here are some examples:
• Aitareya Rishi was the son of a Daasa or criminal but became a Brahmin of the highest order and wrote Aitareya Brahman and Aitareyopanishad. Aitareya Brahman is considered critical to understanding Rigveda.
• Ailush Rishi was the son of a Daasi, gambler and of low character. However, he researched on Rigveda and made several discoveries. Not only was he invited by Rishis but also made an Acharya. (Aitareya Brahman 2.19)
• Satyakaam Jaabaal was the son of a prostitute but became a Brahmin.
• Prishadh was the son of King Daksha but became a Shudra. Further, he did Tapasya to achieve salvation after repenting. (Vishnu Puran 4.1.14). Had Tapasya been banned for Shudra as per the fake story from Uttar Ramayan, how could Prishadh do so?
• Nabhag, son of King Nedishtha, became Vaishya. Many of his sons again became Kshatriya. (Vishnu Puran 4.1.13)
• Dhrist was the son of Nabhag (Vaishya) but became Brahmin, and his son became Kshatriya (VP 4.2.2). Further, in his generation, some became Brahmin again (VP 9.2.23)
• As per Bhagwat, Agniveshya became Brahmin though born to a king.
• Rathotar born in Kshatriya family became a Brahmin as per Vishnu Puran and Bhagvat.
• Haarit became Brahmin though born to Kshatriya (VP 4.3.5)
• Shaunak became Brahmin though born in Kshatriya family. (VP 4.8.1). In fact, as per Vayu Puran, Vishnu Puran, and Harivansh Puran, sons of Shaunak Rishi belonged to all four Varnas.
• Similar examples exist of Gritsamad, Veethavya, and Vritsamati:
• Matanga was the son of Chandal but became a Brahmin. (Mahabharat Anushasan Parva Chapter 3)
• Raavan was born from Pulatsya Rishi but became a Rakshas.
• Pravriddha was the son of Raghu King but became a Rakshas.
• Trishanku was a king but became a Chandal.
• Sons of Vishwamitra became Shudra. Vishwamitra himself was a Kshatriya, who later became a Brahmin.
• Vidur was the son of a servant but became a Brahmin and minister of Hastinapur Empire.
• Vatsa became a Rishi though born to a Shudra (Aitareya Brahman 2.19)
Many verses of adulterated Manu Smriti (10.43-44) state that certain castes were earlier Kshatriya, but later became Shudra. These verses are adulterated but prove that concept of Varna migration did exist. The caste mentioned: Paundrak, Audru, Dravid, Kamboj, Yavan, Shak, Parad, Palhava, Cheen, Kirat, Darad, Khash.
Mahabharat Anushasana Parva 35.17-18 adds the following to above list: Mekal, Laat, Kanvashira, Shaundik, Daarva, Chaur, Shabar, Barbar.
Several gotras are common across Brahmins, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Dalits implying that all of them hailed from the same family but rather got entrapped in the stupid casteism.
Respect for Shudras
Manu was a great humanitarian. He knew that not all Shudras miss their education deliberately. He also understood that just because one ignored education in early part of his life does not mean that he should be penalized for that mistake for entire life. Thus, he ensured that even Shudras get their due respect in society. He never used any insulting adjective for Shudras. On the contrary, there are several instances of Manu using respectful adjectives for Shudras.
Being vulnerable due to lack of education, Shudras deserve greater sensitivity in treatment from rest of the society as per Manu. We have seen some examples of these earlier. Here are some more:
Manu Smriti 3.112: If a Shudra or Vaishya comes as a guest, the family should feed him with due respect.
Manu Smriti 3.116: A householder should eat from remaining food only after he has fed the scholars and servants (Shudras) to their satisfaction.
Manu Smriti 2.137: A very old Shudra deserves more respect than anyone else regardless of his or her wealth, company, age, actions or knowledge. This special provision is accorded only to Shudra.
Vedas are foundation of Manu Smriti
No text apart from Vedas is free from the potential for interpolations.
That is why Vedas are accorded such high importance in our culture. Vedas form the foundation of everything else and hence if Vedas are conserved, other texts can be derived by seers in future as well.
The benchmark for interpreting any other scriptural texts is the Vedas. They are to be interpreted and accepted only to the extent they comply with Vedas. This is true for ALL texts including Smritis, Brahmans, Mahabharat, Ramayan, Geeta, Upanishads, Ayurveda, Neeti Shastra, Darshans, etc.
Manu himself announces in the Manu Smriti that Vedas alone form the foundation of Dharma.
Manu Smriti 2.8: A learned man after fully scrutinizing all this with the eye of knowledge should, in accordance with the authority of the Vedas, intent on the performance of his duties.
Thus, it becomes clear that Manu Smriti has to be interpreted ONLY in lines with Vedas.
Shudras have right to study Vedas and conduct Vedic rituals
Vedas very clearly provide the right to Shudras (and women) – in fact entire humanity – to study Vedas and conduct Vedic rituals like Yajna. Refer Yajurveda 26.1, Rigveda 10.53.4, Nirukta 3.8, etc.
Manu Smriti also supports the same Vedic truth. That is why nowhere in the context of Upanayan (education initiation) Manu does forbid Upanayan or sacred thread for Shudras. On the contrary, one who refuses to accept Sacred Thread of education is called a Shudra!
In lines with Vedas, Manu also orders the ruler to ensure that the salary and perks of Shudras be never reduced in any circumstance. (7.125-126, 8.216)
Summary
To summarize, the assumption of Manu formulating a birth-based caste system is baseless. On the contrary, Manu Smriti is vehemently against any reference to family or birth to judge a person. The Varna system of Manu is a pure meritocracy.
Each human has all the four Varnas – Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Shudra. Manu attempted to organize the predominant Varna of each individual in the social context in a manner that aids individual and collective uplift.
We will review another allegation on Manu prescribing harsh punishments for Shudras and preferential treatment for Brahmins in next chapter.
But we would like to conclude this part from what Manu himself said about fraud and wrong practices.
He says in Manu Smriti 4.30 that frauds, wrong practices, deceit, perversion, and falsehood should not be respected even by words.
The caste system based on birth is one of the most disgusting fraudulent, deceitful perverted and false practices to exist among civilized human beings. As per Manu and as per Vedas, one should work to destroy this criminal practice by all means – harshest words and strongest actions. To show soft corner to birth-based caste system even in words is against Manu.
What about the perverted Verses of Manu Smriti?
Wait Wait Wait Agniveer! Before you end, I demand you to explain those perverted verses of Manu Smriti that are quoted everywhere to justify birth-based caste system and gender discrimination. I can provide hundreds of such shlokas from Manu Smriti.
Agniveer
That is the point, my friend. How can the same Manu Smriti have both verses defending as well as rejecting birth-based caste system? This means that Manu Smriti demands a closer scrutiny.
Let us review few summary points:
Point 1: The current Manu Smriti is full of interpolated/ adulterated verses that were added much later for various reasons. Almost 60% of presently popular Manu Smriti is actually fake. In fact, there is no evidence of current Manu Smriti being authentic apart from a Kolkata Manuscript of Manu Smriti concocted by British in 1794 through a person called William Jones. There is no other evidence of authenticity of current Manu Smriti than this dubious British text.
Point 2: Interpolation is not a problem with Manu Smriti alone. Apart from Vedas – that are preserved through a unique Patha and Swara method – all other texts of almost all belief systems are prone to modifications, interpolations, and deletions. These include Ramayana, Mahabharat, Bible, and Quran. Not to talk of texts like Bhavishya Puran that continued to be modified till printing press arrived!
Point 3: Three editions of Ramayan are available today – Dakshinatya, Pashchamottariya, and Gaudiya, which are different. Even Geeta Press Gorakhpur has indicated many chapters as adulterated (Prakshipta). Most scholars agree that Balkanda and Uttarkanda are grossly adulterated.
Similarly, Mahabharat is known to be a grossly interpolated text. Garud Puran Brahmakanda 1.59 states that in Kaliyuga many frauds are posing as Brahmins to remove certain shlokas and add new ones in Mahabharat.
Mahabharat Shantiparva 265.9.4 itself states that Vedic texts clearly prohibit alcohol, fish, and meat. All these have been propagated by frauds who have added such verses in scriptures through deceit.
The original version of Bible does not exist today! We only have translations of translations of some translations of the original Bible, which no one has ever seen.
Quran also is claimed to be a modified version of original teachings of Muhammad.
No wonder Manu Smriti – the oldest text on social systems – is also prone to modifications. More so because Manu Smriti historically had the greatest influence in day to day life of each citizen as well as politics of the nation. After all, it was like the constitution for centuries. Hence, the incentives for a crooked one to interpolate Manu Smriti were very high.
Point 4: When we review Manu Smriti, we find four kinds of interpolations: to bring completeness, for selfish reasons, to exaggerate and to bring defects. Most of these interpolations are blatantly obvious. Dr. Surendra Kumar has written a detailed translation of Manu Smriti in Hindi that analyzes each shloka on various parameters to weed out those verses that are obviously interpolated.
He has deduced that of the 2685 shlokas of Manu Smriti, at least, 1471 shlokas are adulterated. He has classified the adulterations as:
• out of the subject
• out of context
• contradictory
• repetition
• the difference in usage and style
• blatant contradiction with Vedas
We recommend all keen students of Vedic texts to procure a copy of Manu Smriti by Dr. Surendra Kumar (published by Aarsh Sahitya Prachar Trust, Delhi) which would make this point as transparent as air.
Point 5: Dr. Surendra Kumar is not the only person to point out adulterations in Manu Smriti. Even many a western Indologists like Macdonnell, Keith, Buhler, etc. have expressed the same.
Point 6: Even BR Ambedkar accepted that ancient scriptures have been adulterated. He has alleged adulterations in Ramayan, Mahabharat, Geeta, Puranas and even in Vedas. He cited contradictory verses from Manu Smriti. But this is ignored by modern Dalit activists.
This myopic act did stir up an anti-Manu movement and created political careers for many politicians. But this selective honesty only worsened the caste-based hatred and made Manu – a true hero – a popular villain.
Even so-called Arya Samaji Sanyasis like Agnivesh burnt copies of Manu Smriti and disgraced the great Rishi only to score political brownies. Though he very well knew that Swami Dayanand himself had asserted that Manu Smriti has been interpolated, but the unadulterated verses of Manu Smriti form the foundation of his Vedic ideology.
And now people expect such enlightened people to be instrumental in eradicating corruption from the nation by being masterminds of Anna Hazare movement! We seem to never learn from history! But that’s a different story.
Conclusion
Manu Smriti has been subject to significant adulterations. However, the adulterated verses are easy to identify and trash. The rest of the Manu Smriti is an excellent text that establishes the foundations of a meritocracy based rational society that values each individual and ensures collective success.
Vedas form the foundation of original Manu Smriti.
The existing movement against Manu Smriti is purely a political game led by those who never reviewed Manu Smriti in the first place.
True Manuvaad refers to complete outright rejection of birth-based caste system and heavy punishment for those who justify discrimination on the basis of birth. It also refers to the refusal of word ‘Dalit’ or ‘crushed one’ for certain people who are completely equal to rest of the humanity in all aspects.
Let us all work to install this Manuvaad in our society by working towards a completely caste-less and merit-based society. This is the only way to save humanity and the nation.
Let us follow the true Dharma – that is same for all human beings regardless of caste, birth, gender, geography, religion and other baseless parameters.
Manu Smriti 8.17
Noble deeds or Dharma is only one true friend that accompanies one ever after death. All others desert one as soon as death has overtaken.
References: Works of Dr Surendra Kumar, Pt Gangaprasad Updhyaya, and Swami Dayanand Saraswati
Sir, it would have been more helpful had you even published the slokas along with sloka nbrs and translation.
hi
i have seen conversation between abdullah and kalbhairav that abdulaah told not only he but many muslims say that universe has limits and god knows it i admit but we do not know what is limit for this universe and that is infinite which even modern science which has multiple facilities to explore the universe had just explored the mars and maximum extend to andromeda galaxy can abdullah say apart from this science has explored anything and even science have many theories on birth and existence in universe.
as well as abdullah told that universe has beginning and ending can he explain with statement proving that which and what is begining and end of universe that science in contemporary told .
finally even in hindu sayings that the god knows the end but nobody knows his end that is refered as infinity
hi indian
why such ignorant on manu-smrithi do you think there is no discrimination exist in the modern world …black and white discrimination …gender discrimination…status discrimination ..linguistic discrimination….geographical discrimination…cultural discrimination…. educated and uneducated discrimination …Birth discrimination…occupation discrimination …iam so tired .manusmrithi is scientific and practical approach of categorising the people according to their abilities and nature of their work .we could see it today we have doctors,engineers,architect,economist,military men etc .. etc.. is this all based on the occupation not based discrimination
I completely agree with Maharishi Manu and his smrithi. I believe that there are fundamental things live in every human according to their castes. I mean only kshatriyas are truly qualified to rule land. they can only save the land and the people. brahmins meant to prey the Lord for everything for their people and king. only vyshyas can do business in an acceptable way and virtue. Shudras not qualified except obeying the 3 other masters. that is being proven as they do disqualify in all the fields viz. politics, business, skills and humanity virtues in all the field, they brought down everything, in the present india. that is proved.
Manu was racist and his followers are also racist..Nowadays sharma is tailor,verma is tilling fields, yadav is ruler,,so-called shudras are ruling many states..I pity you this absurd, foolish ,racist, casteist Manu followers..You deserve the same treatment, you treated your fellow human beings..By the way know A pandit Sharma doing sweeper
job..
Schooled by missionaries no less. The notion of race developed with Europe. Indians do not consider each other to be different races. Varna in Sanatana Dharma is not hereditary. If you read anything in Agniveer you’d know of the many articles written here against inherited status. So I pity a prejudiced fool like you who didnt even bother to read the articles here.
Now u trying to escape yourself ….tell me just single things …is there any reality in the events of HINDU DHARM ….what did for humanity of ANY DEVTA…? ? Is any one can travel on RAT LION or pe cock ….kya koi smonder ko manthan ho sakta hai ,kya koi dharti ko smonder main faik
Tell me app hanuman ko Geaini kehte hai kya boh ek booti ko pehchan nahi paaya ..? Kya Appke devta (Bhagwan) bhi aapas main lad hate hai ..haaa ladte hain …apke Bhagwan (Krishna) jo ladkiyo ke kapde Churate the Aashe hain
@Ravvi
—Tell me app hanuman ko Geaini kehte hai kya boh ek booti ko pehchan nahi paaya ..?—
Kya ‘aankho ka doctor’ apki ‘gyanio’ ki shreni mein aata hai? Agar haan, toh kya woh open heart surgery kar sakta hai? 😉
Charter drafted by Islamist supporters of President Mohamed Morsi wins 63.8 percent of votes in two-round referendum. ALLAHUAKBAR
Good,pack your bags and settle there.LoL!
Through voter suppression and intimidation. It has already been reported in the news. Sad to see Egypt descend so after the revolution. Terrible times ahead for every one in Egypt who is not a Salafist/Islamist – women Copts, liberals, other Muslims. Watch now Egypt turn into the Sunni version of Iran. Dark days same dark days ahead as they were for all non-Muslims in the lands partitioned from India.
You are prejudiced, have you seen hosni Mubarak days? you always beat the drum that Islam can’t come through democracy and when Islamist Muslim brotherhood bringing revolution after facing all the torture then you have problem?
all the complains by salvation thoroughly checked and investigated by electoral committee and they refuted all the charges but still you are believing in unfair election theory .
all the rights of minorities will be protected and inshallah Egypt will become a role model. you just prevent west from plotting against Muslims.
No I have not pre judged anything. I have watched and observed to see what came out. The Muslim Brotherhood is not interested in real democracy. They are only interested in coming to power using democracy. Let us see if they will ever be outsed without force once elected. The world news reported there was voter intimidation, and suppression. Even Muslim women who did not wear the hijab were excluded from voting in some areas. That is the world the brotherhood is bringing to Egypt. Google it. Google also the plight of Copts. The Muslim Brotherhood did not lead the revolution, it was the secularists, liberals, feminists. The MB hijacked the revolution and it is not me saying so. It is Egyptians themselves. Speaking of torture guess who has been torturing the protestors, yup the brotherhood. They know this brotherhood is retrograde. That is why they are protesting against them, even stormed Morsi’s palace. We know all about how minority rights are protected in Egypt and other Muslim countries. Ask any Copt in Egypt, any Hindu in Pakistan or Bangladesh, any Zoroastrian or Bahai in Iran any they will give you a clear picture of how their rights are “protected” under Muslims.
“Yet Egypt’s Nile region has always been the exception, the lawyer and chairwoman of the Egyptian Center for Women’s Rights (ECWR) admits. Abu El Konsam worries that the Islamists currently in power in Cairo will use a newly drafted constitution to reverse the forward march of Egyptian history.
“It’s a disaster. There isn’t a single article in the draft constitution that mentions the rights of women,” said Nihan Abu El Konsam. “We lawyers have made numerous proposals for constitutional articles that would make up for the social and cultural problems in our society and would allow women to finally achieve equal rights. But the Islamists ignored it.””
http://www.dw.de/a-slap-in-the-face-for-egypts-women/a-16459115
[…] Original post in English is available at http://agniveer.com/manu-smriti-and-shudras/ […]
The posts main intention is just to promote manu as a superhuman or so. But the manuscript is just another book which has got hell out of contradictions by its own content when we read it throughly. First of all the author of this post says that manu did say a sudhra can become bhramin and bhramin as sudhra as its been said in verse 10:65, purposely skimming the main content. Manu says an offspring of a brahmin through a sudhra women can be bhramin after 7 generations(which means purely on birth not by the way, or job he does) if the consecutive females born out of the families which get married to bhramins in every generation. shhit!
If you comment without reading, you are making blunder. Your goal seems to be to incriminate Manu than fight castesim. Our goal is to destroy roots of casteism. Our study proves that Manu was more against caste system than even the anti-casteist and Ambedkarite forces. If Manu was alive, he would have called for ban on this bogus word called ‘Dalit’.
hope you’d have read the manu then, why did he leaves the fourth varna on most? Do you deny that, the manu didn’t say that what i’ve posted here, a sudhra can be a bhramin means he doesn’t say “at the same birth”, he says the offspring of the 7th generation for a women who’s born out of a bhramin male and shudra female’s love if the every generations woman’s offspring should be through a bhramin?!?
10:65 If (a female of the caste), sprung from a Brahmana and a Sudra female, bear (children) to one of the highest caste, the inferior (tribe) attains the highest caste within the seventh generation.
It says clearly that by birth one comes under the varnas, and the fourth varna is not twice born, only the bhramin, chatriya and vaishya are called so, if they do the upanyana at the right time as its been said in the earlier verses.
That is a fake verse. Please read Manusmriti distributed by Agniveer at http://agnikart.com which analyses each verse carefully. Almost half the verses of modern Manusmriti made popular are totally fake and out of context. And there is nothing objectionable in rest of the Manu Smriti. What is your problem with Manu Smriti that Agniveer is promoting? You are against Manu or caste system?
Let me tell you one thing, if you guys are against caste system, you won’t be stand with Manu. The content I’ve quoted above is just to counter your content with a single reference. But if you read the Manu you can see the fourth varna is neglected and they’re not included to tell the stuffs how its been said to the other three varnas. Whereas its been clearly told that the fourth varna should work for the other three varnas dutifully without asking any question. Also, regarding upanyana or education at the time, the shudra’s are not allowed and its not at all mentioned, also for women// Manu 2:67 The nuptial ceremony is stated to be the Vedic Sacrament for women//. These references I’ve put in are from the sites which promote the hInduism. For those who can think and ask questions cannot go with the book for sure. That’s why he’s said in the verse 2:11.
manusmriti has been corrupted by evil brahmins and british who tried to attack hinduism
a ‘divine book’ should not get corrupted, otherwise it should be accepted just another book written by some human being, be it Manusmriti, Gita, or even the Vedas.
Who says that Manu Smriti is a divine book? Its a human book and prone to adulterations.
then what about Gita, in which the caste is told in the following verses:
Verse 18:41
O Arjuna, the activities of the bhramanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras are clearly divided according to the qualities born of their own nature.
Verse 18:42
The actions of a brahmana arising from his own nature are serenity, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge of the Vedas, wisdom and firm faith.
Verse 18:43
The actions of a ksatriya born of his own nature are heroism, exuberance, determination, resourcefulness, without trace of cowardice in battle, generosity and leadership.
Verse 18:44
The actions of a vaisya born of his own nature are agriculture, cow protection and trade, also the actions of a Sudra born of his own nature consists in service to brahmanas, ksatriyas and vaisyas.
all the so-called-sacred verses are just written by someone, manipulated by many to their personal or social interest/influence. I’m not denying that there’s no good in those books, but they’re not worth as its been promoted as Divine or so.
1. Gita is not divine as Vedas.
2. The varnas mentioned in Geeta are not related to birth, but to one’s basic nature. A Brhamin can take birth in home of Shudra and Shudra can take birth in home of Brahmin.
If you have self-control, austerity etc, you are Brahmin. It does not matter in which family you were born. Same for other Varnas.
It is in later era that people started referring to Birth for varnas, which is a big blunder and what we are against vehemently. There is no verse in Vedas that endorse birth-based casteism. Please refer all articles on caste system on site. Just because few fools manipulate the scriptures, we don not reject the scriptures. We instead should reject the fools and throw them out. Think of it.
Thanks for the reply, and we’d be grateful if the thing is as said by you. But the society has taken from there the so-called-sacred books.
It is society’s blunder that they took meaning wrongly. If one misinterprets the book of science properly then you cannot blame Newton or Einstein for it. Vedas and Geeta very clearly state that Varna are not determined by caste. They say that one’s qualities and profession determine one’s Varna. The word ‘Varna’ itself means ‘choice’. Manu also was against caste system. If not, he would have chosen some other word instead of ‘Varna’.
Selfish people cooked their own verses and propagated in name of Manu Smriti. They could not do so with Vedas because Vedas are protected through different oral renditions.
Now we fight against each other in name of Manu. On contrary, real Manuvaad will be to destroy caste system from very root. Read our articles on http://agniveer.com/category/society/caste-system/ . Ask yourself – how many in history have rejected caste-system so clearly and so uncompromisingly? And we got this inspiration from no other texts than Vedas, Geeta and Manu Smriti. So let us join hands, kill the caste system totally, and establish true religion. If that demands changing the society, lets do it. But let us not destroy our foundation just because some fools are misusing it. Do you leave your mother just because some people are calling her villain? No. Instead you teach such people the right lesson and defend the glory of mother. Lets join hands and change the world.
@Agniveer/Ankur
“They say that one’s qualities and profession determine one’s Varna.”
I have a question, what would you call a person who is doing job of a vedic priest but indulge in corrupt practices? As a profession he pass as a Brahmin acc. to varna system but how about his inner qualities, his charachter? In what varna he fits in?
Dhanyavaad
Please read our articles. Varna is a choice. It is a property. All of us are Brahmins when we seek knowledge, Kshatriya when we seek strength, vaishya, when we seek prosperity, Shudra when we do manual labor and Dasyus when we indulge in corruption.
would like to conclude with one thing, somewhere you’ve posted that the fault also falls on the so-called-shudras because, they’ve allowed the atrocities against them. But you’ve to understand one thing, no one will accept the slavery imposed upon them. The peoples right to get educated, choose a better profession(though there is no such, if the people are not ready to clean the ditches then the whole country would be off dirty, there’s no such good profession or bad. but the people who’re all doing the cleaning works and those who’ve been forced to do so are said to be shudras and not given a fair treatment). These people are denied to have property for them-self. We can quote the verses saying so from Manusmriti itself for sure. If you’re not allowed to have property, getting educated and forced to be slave over a time period your generation will become pucca slaves than better human being that’s what happened. You can see even nowadays the lower caste people are not allowed to get educated and come up in life by their own than depending on the upper caste. The khairlanji incident is one of the great proof on that. The Dharmapuri incident in tamilnadu clearly says that how the upper caste will behave if those people are coming up in life a better way. The upper caste goons rampaged more than 400 houses systematically not allowing the local police or fire officers to arrive the place at right time and they’ve looted all the valuable stuffs from the homes before they set them on fire.
Even after independence Mr.Rajaji was about to bring “Kula kalvi” means a guy from one particular caste should get trained what his father’s main profession.
Now just because of the invasions of the foreigners we’re allowed to read, explore and agitate against the system. Thanks to the British, if they wouldn’t we would not be allowed to read. If you guys think that why are we thanking them that’s just because those who’re all here are ready to oppress us than giving any choices/chances to come up.
Dear Brother,
What we mean is that if their is injustice, we must rise. We won’t comment on Rajaji or anybody else. We will also not comment on specific incidences because that does not solve the key issues. What we strongly announce is that Agniveer stands for completely merit-based society. No nonsense of birth-based caste. We stand for change in prevailing order of things. And we get inspiration for this from Vedas.
We don’t believe in blame game. We believe in just future. And that demands annihilation of caste system based on birth. We are running special programs to strengthen those who are so-called socially backward. If we get support, which we are trying hard to get, we will empower the so-called lower castes with education and wisdom and change their future. That will silence all. We have devised special plans in this direction, by working with the ‘most backward’ and showcase how they can become ‘most forward’. We will continue this mission and if Paramatma blesses, we shall make caste-system as irrelevant as the dinosaurs. We need support from all likeminded in this noble mission.
Dear Agniveer,
If a guy reads the Manusmriti as full, he can understand the subject in a better manner than skimming I believe. And its not society that caused, its been clearly said there.
you can check out the verses.
in the verse 2:7 he says that whatever given in the manusmriti is based on Vedas alone. (Though we’ve not yet started to read the complete vedas, but will put them also into the acid test)
in the verse 2:210 he says that a guru’s wife can be given all the respects as given to the master if she belongs to the same caste of the guru.
in the verses 3:12 to 3:19 he’s telling about inter caste marriage.
A bhramin can marry a lady belonging to the four varnas, chatriya his varna and the two lowest varnas, vaishya in his varna and shudra, whereas the shudra should be marrying a lady belonging to his varna. Its just to protect the varna and to give the upper hand to choose the woman by the upper caste persons.
This doesn’t mean that intercaste is allowed, he also says that a person who marries a woman lower than his own varna, will go to hell and will pull his generations to the fourth varna, and the offsprings can be accepted as the respected higher varna on the 7th generation as said in the verse 10:65. Which purely states that the varna/caste is based on BIRTH alone.
Even it has got lot many stuffs which is really funny to quote/discuss. we’re just going through it verse by verse and co-relate the stuffs.
So kindly avoid promoting the skimmed content to protect just because you’ve to do so by the name of culture or so. A culture should move forward for a better treatment of every individual than dividing and encouraging slavery.
How do you know the ‘full Manusmriti’ is not fake? What if I add stupid sentences in your name in this comment and say that you have said all that stupid things?
Let us be sensible. As we have stated, the original manu Smriti is devoid of any casteism. On contrary, it opposes casteism. To find out how and why, please read our Manusmriti research by Dr Surendra Kumar that analyzes each and every verse of Manu Smriti for authenticity and proves which are fake ones.
Just as we can’t punish anyone because his facebook account got hacked, in same lines, we cannot condemn Manu despite evidence of hacking with Manu Smriti, just because we have an urge to hate Manu or our glorious culture. We believe in intellectual analysis and not blinded hatred.
We stick to our stand – original Manu Smriti promotes merit and gender rights. It is against foolish concepts like slavery, casteism and gender discrimination. And hence we are proud of it, while we reject the fake verses.
A corrupt person does not fit in any varna.
@Annihilate the caste: what is the problem with these verses? in your own way of putting them, is the answer :
qualities born of their own nature, it does not say “birth”? cant you see that?
Dear Ankur, its “qualities born of their ‘own nature'” not by “learned” or “made”! You can’t judge a guy by birth, lot many factors are there to make a man.
@Annihilate the caste : now Samskrit word under contention is “SwaBhav” which has been transliterated as “own nature” . when you do a thing over and over (training) again it becomes your natural state or swabhav , so in essence one who has to understand the true sense/meaning of bhagvat geeta should try to grasp the spirit of the geeta and not the literal meaning in English.
Besides the varna had been since time immemorial been decided in the gurukulas by the guru after making the students go through the same king of training.After undergoing the same training whosoever emerged with a relevant “varna swabhav” was granted that varna.
aum
the verses say that one;s actions/duties are based on one’s guna(quality) .
oops, so you say that all the Manusmritis available is fake one, even the contents published through the sites which promote hinduISM, and the one you’ve alone the true and authentic one got straight from Manu himself, great, there we agree, you’re a true follower of Manu as he himself says that whatever written in the smriti is got by him from bhramma! Keep going!
Don’t act chilidish. Not all Manusmriti is fake. A large number of verses are. And this is a well researched conclusion. If a site promotes Hinduism, that does not make it final authority on fact and fiction. Kindly review the Manu Smriti published by us and then make a factual argument. And the view presented by us is not our isolated view. Its the predominant view of a big group among Hindus who are research oriented.
wonderful work ,great work, this is an eye opening version ,pls share if more versions are available for diff religious books
Agniveer Sir,
Please let me know when and where Swami Agnivesh burnt Manusmriti. If this is incorrect then please dont misguide people against any respectful person. this is illegal.
swami agnivesh ji ne kis sthan me v kab msnusmriti jalai hai uska ham sabut chahenge jisse unse us vishsy par baat ho sake !
“Never insult anyone born in lower family” !!! Just curious what does “born in lower family” mean???!! The statement contradicts this article; i believe
“Never insult anyone born in a poor family” does that make your curious what does “born in a poor family” mean?!!!
well these is one difference , Knowledge and wealth.
Justice giving article for great seer Manu and his excellent work Manusmriti
Janmana jayate shudrah(One is a Shudra by birth)
Samskarad dvija ucyate(By observing Sanskara one becomes a Dvija)
Vedapathi bhaved viprah(By studying the Vedas one becomes a Vipra)
Brahma janati brahmanah(One who knows Brahman is a Brahmana)
These verses are from Athreya Smrithi(141-142 Fifth Mandala (Book 5) of the Rig Veda). See the last line… There are Vipras everywhere. But Brahmanas are rare… And a Brahmana is not necessarily a Vipra… Let the caste fanatics see these verses…
I am sorry but am pretty disappointed at the way you have quoted things out of context (which you have alleged apologists of other religions of doing) to drive a point. I must admit that I had never read the Manu Smriti before and this article made me go through it in totality, and I have come to the conclusion that it is nothing but a hate book (a’least the translation I am reading).
You are right when you say everyone is born a Shudra.
2.37. (The initiation) of a Brahmana who desires proficiency in sacred learning should take place in the fifth (year after conception), (that) of a Kshatriya who wishes to become powerful in the sixth, (and that) of a Vaisya who longs for (success in his) business in the eighth.
2.38 Gives times for initiation for top 3 Varnas
2.39. After those (periods men of) these three (castes) who have not received the sacrament at the proper time, become Vratyas (outcasts), excluded from the Savitri (initiation) and despised by the Aryans.
2.172. (He who has not been initiated) should not pronounce (any) Vedic text excepting (those required for) the performance of funeral rites, since he is on a level with a Sudra before his birth from the Veda.
This means irrespective of your Varna if there is no initiation after birth, you are doomed to a level of the Sudra. For the Sudra, since there is no initiation, he is anyways doomed.
If you are looking to reform Hindu society, lets have the courage to call out Holy texts that profess inequality as junk (its is anyways a Smriti). Being in denial is not going to solve the problem. Besides you have misquoted the Purusha Shukta in the article (its 10.90.11-12 and not 10.10.11-12), which in itself is innocuous. However, when Manu took prevalent practices and codified them with divine sanction of Vedas, he established inequality in Hindu society for perpetuity.
Would urge everyone to read the Manu Smriti. Couldn’t give all the hate verses due to shortage of space.
Jag,
“However, when Manu took prevalent practices and codified them with divine sanction of Vedas, he established inequality in Hindu society for perpetuity.”
– From what I seen Agniveer wrote, he did make it clear that he doesn’t agree with all the different Manu text. And he also says there are some corrupt ones and some not so corrupt. And his point is, anything that goes against he Vedas is not valid, That means any Manu text that goes against the Vedas is not to be accepted. I hope that is clear to you.
Best,
Krishnarao
[…] However, if we delve deep into this matter, it all appears to be a campaign of calumny. Arun Shourie, an expert of the Indian History and Culture affairs, has written a lot about these subjects. I recommend you watch Shourie’s interview with Madhu Trehan and read this interesting piece at Agniveer. […]
For sure I would suggest all my friends ( those who belong to OBC SC ST NT classes) to read this amazing article.
Thanks Agniveer for your step towards destruction of unjustified caste-system.
Babasaheb Ambedakar followers should read this article.
THERE ARE ONLY 2 RELIGIONS
RELIGION OF THE CREATOR
The creator stays above the universe never comes on earth. He sends down his holy book to earth. He is The Creator of all, has no parents, no wife nor children. He is supreme power no need to change shapes nor asks anyone to help, every thing happens at His wish; he can destroy all his creations. None of his creations can compete in any manner. He commands his worship. He punishes those who worship any other Gods or any of his creations.
RELIGION OF THE CREATED
The created he she or it lives on earth. They and…
You haven’t illuminated the aspect on the status of women in Manusmriti..
http://nirmukta.com/2011/08/27/the-status-of-women-as-depicted-by-manu-in-the-manusmriti/
Kindly go through the site and comment back.. Some examples of the same are as follows
5. “Nraksh vraksh ………..” – 3/9. One should not marry women whose names are similar to constellations, trees, rivers, those from a low caste, mountains, birds, snakes, slaves or those whose names inspires terror.
6. “Yasto na bhavet ….. …..” – 3/10. Wise men should not marry women who do not have a brother and whose parents are not socially well known.
7. “Uchayangh…………….” – 3/11. Wise men should marry only women who are free from bodily defects, with beautiful names, grace/gait like an elephant, moderate hair on the head and body, soft limbs and small teeth.
8. “Shudr-aiv bharya………” – 3/12.Brahman men can marry Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaish and even Shudra women but Shudra men can marry only Shudra women.
9. “Na Brahman kshatriya..” – 3/14. Although Brahman, Kshatriya and Vaish men have been allowed inter-caste marriages, even in distress they should not marry Shudra women.
10. “Heenjati striyam……..” – 3/15. When twice born [dwij=Brahman, Kshatriya and Vaish] men in their folly marry low caste Shudra women, they are responsible for the degradation of their whole family. Accordingly, their children adopt all the demerits of the Shudra caste.
11. “Shudram shaynam……” – 3/17. A Brahman who marries a Shudra woman, degrades himself and his whole family ,becomes morally degenerated , loses Brahman status and his children too attain status of shudra.
12. “Daiv pitrya………………” – 3/18. The offerings made by such a person at the time of established rituals are neither accepted by God nor by the departed soul; guests also refuse to have meals with him and he is bound to go to hell after death.
In this article, the main difference said between Varna System and Caste System is one acquiring it by Birth. How this ‘birth’ tag could have been attached ?
In the very first chapter of Manusmriti, it is clearly stated that Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras were created by Brahma (creator of this world) from his mouth, hands, thighs and feet respectively. Manu claims that the same Brahma, who created this world, also created Manusmriti and taught it to him.
So, now we know how manusmiruthi’s varna system implicitly brought caste system. The Brahma (creator of this world). He gave birth to Brahmas, Shatryas, Vaishyas and Sudrhas and created them. Manu or Thye Brahma never devised a system to ‘evaluate’ a person when he transforms in to another Varna say from Brahmin to Vaishya or Sudhra to Brahmin.
Now consider this social situation where a person who belonged to a ‘Brahmin-Father’ has a ‘Brahmin-son’. The social status achieved by the ‘Father’ would all been given to ‘Son’ too irrespective of his knowledge because nobody is there to question his ‘knowledge’ or there is no system devised by ManuSmiruthi for this. Obviously the ‘birth’ tag given by ‘The Brahma’ started continuing. Thats all.
All the conversions sited by Agniveer from Vedhas / other scripts are seemed to be ‘exceptions’ from the routine thing.
So I uphold Manu and The Brahma as culpirits for bringing up the ‘birth’ tag with Varna System and made it as the social ‘Caste System’.
let me put another issue.
brahmana is representing knowledge.thus brahmana comes from brahma’s mouth.
ksatriya’s nature is to fight and is strenght,thus he is related to narhma’s hands.
vaishya runs the society or keeps it in mothion by economics.thus he comes from thighs
and sudr represents the supportive strenghth. the serving class is the one that supports the society.thus they come from the feet that supports the whole body.
thus here is just a metaphr by using brahma.he uis not creating four distinct castes as we tend to think.
हहह।
ये सही है।
जब उन श्लोको की बारी आई तो मनुस्मृति में मिलावट हो गयी।
भाई अगर मिलावट है तो क्या जो अगेंस्ट में है वही मिलावट वाली है।
और जो फेवर में है वह सुद्ध है।
वाह
हो सकता है की जितने भी श्लोक है जो आपने बताये की मनुस्मृति सही है।
वही सब मॉडिफाइड हो
खुद ही सर्टिफिकेट दे दिया।
और जब सबसे पुराने ग्रंथो में इतनी मिलावट तो नए का क्या??
और ये बताओ।
सारी दुनिया वालो ने गलत कॉपी ले राखी है तुम्हारे पास ही सही है।
यार हर चीज को जस्टिफाई करोगे।।
प्रश्न के बदले दूसरा प्रश्न पूछना उत्तर देना नही होता।
अगर मई तुमसे सती प्रथा के ऊपर बोलू तो तुम उसे भी जस्टिफाई करोगे
अगर तुम्हारा बाप मर जाए तो तुम्हारी माँ को जल जाना चाहिए।
पर अगर तुम्हारी माँ मर जाए तो बाप कु न जले?
विधवा को शादी का अधिकार नही?
बहु पति वाद
ब्रह्मा के द्वारा अपने पुत्री का दुष्कर्म।
वेदों से स्पस्ट है की न तस्य प्रतिमा अस्ति।
फिर भी मूर्ति पूजा को सपोर्ट|
यार राज राम मोहन राय या ऐसे जितने भी समझ सुधारक आये क्या वह पागल थे।
उन्होंने ग्रंथो को नही समझा।
तुम्हारी समझ जादा हो गयी।
आर्य समाज क्यों बना?
बोध धर्म कु बना।
भाई हर धर्म में कमी होती है।
इसे एक्सेप्ट करो।
और दुनिया जानती है वेदों की जन्म आधारित कास्ट सिस्टम।
सब अंडपढ़।
यार जब तुम्हारी सभी धार्मिक किताबो में इतनी मिलावट आ चुकी है तो धर्म में कितनी होगी।
और हां।
जब उसमे मिलावट है तो उसे बदल दो
जैसे क्रिस्ट लोग करते है।
The correct statement is that the whole problem is a result of 1000 years of invasions. The wrong statement, an absolutely wrong statement is that we were “defeated” because of lack of unity resulted by caste system. As KS Lal notes, ALL groups fought shoulder to shoulder against invaders. The astronomical rise of SC/ST in India happened during invasions because of enslavement, then colonial feudalism. While most civilizations perished fighting abrahamic invaders, we survived BECAUSE of the cohesion offered by jAti.
Caste is a European concept and you do the same mistake of reading that notion into a complex social structure of India which is built on several concepts of cohesion such as skill grouping, temperamental grouping, protection of cultural units and branches of knowledge. If one sees society as a flat space then idiotic concepts like equality arise. Everyone knows that a small startup company has flat space but the moment its numbers start growing hierarchy, stratification etc come in. But people fail to apply such commonsense concept to a well evolved civilized society. They are, if they exist, visible only as stratified and well grouped. Where they are not, they are broken up (as in the west).
As for birth vs karma, thats another strawman. guNa and karma are two components of dharma and both have active, accumulated and birth components. Just the way birth is not the lone component, dismissing it in understanding dharma is equally an exercise in ignorance.
Dude,
There’s no real way to establish which verses of any ancient text are “genuine” and which ones have “interpolations”. One can at best try to guess at this by comparing grammar, continuity with other verses, presence of anachronisms, etc. They are at best educated guesses and consensus among scholars of a particular text is rare.
Textual analyses that at least attempt neutrality and objectivity tend to be taken seriously. The one you cite tosses out 1471 of 2685 verses for having “interpolations”. Your exposition seems to suggest that the likely criterion was to delete anything contradicting the twin premises that “Caste system stinks” and “Original Hinduism is Awesome”. Otherwise, after tossing out 1471/2685 verses (each with significant uncertainty) most people would go with “Manusmriti is dodgy and unreliable”. You cling to your third premise that “Manusmriti is ALSO super awesome!”, making it hard to accept that the analysis was objectively done and not with pre-conceived notions.
Polemics such as yours, including the critique of Ambedkar are usually aimed at shirking responsibility for doing anything at all about the gross caste based inequality that affects our society even today by appeals that the sins of historical wrongs should not be imposed on present day descendants who played no role in them.
If you think my claim of present day inequality is incorrect or that Dalits have all become fat suckling at the teat of reservations, just visit a rag-picker’s slum in whatever Indian city you live in and ask the inhabitants what castes they belong to, their education levels, earnings and whether they are able to send their children to school. Breathe in the stench and the flies and feel the squishiness of the ground under your feet (it’s all accumulated garbage). You might just becoming interested in understanding Ambedkarite and Dalit perspectives and working to make our society more equitable, instead of this.
S-adar Namaskaar. Sir, Please what is the shambook vadh story in ramayan. It is alleged that Shri Ram killed Shambook becaz He was a Shudra and was trying to acquire knowledge by tapasya. Please tell me the truth.
Warm Rgds
I appreciate agniveer to start conversing about caste and trying to protect Hindu religion. Even though i am not that much inclined to the concept of any religion per say. My suggestion is that the vedas or upanishads or any other old scripts is good as far as how our ancestors lived and about history. Please do not try to create a parallel law than what we have in our country law. The problems with any religion is that in the name of god they can kill or harm the people. Morality is very relative subject and trying to apply the moral values created before 3000 years is absurd without proper reforms in the religion forums. Anyway please comeout discuss these kind of sensitive issues and let the people understand the caste system that we followed does not work any more and not to try anymore in the name of a religion.
Hi Ravi,
You have some good points. Reform or adjustment is key. Also we need to understand, not to bundle all religions into on group. Keep in mind, which religion/s are trying world domination and India is just one of the overall strategy of such religions. And even that should be addressed.
“moral values created before 3000 years is absurd without proper reforms in the religion forums”
– I don’t fully agree with your point here. This is a common mistake people in India make. Just because something is old doesn’t make it obsolete. There are many ideas that are ancient, but perennial in nature. It shouldn’t mater if the idea or concept is “OLD”. What should matter is the content and message of the idea/concept. Is it still relevant and if can it exist as is, or if it needs to be tweaked and modernized. Forget about when the ideas were created. That really is not even important in our conversation here. What is important is it relevant and should it still be used. To figure that out, you need to use your brain. To blanketly say anything old should be thrown out, well, the number system is ancient maybe we should throw that out as well. The English language is old, so why are we even using that. To not murder people is an old idea, maybe we should throw that out too because it is an old idea. And I can go on and on. Use your brain.
Your efforts are laudable. Firstly I would reiterate your own statement that a powerful and prosperous society can not co-exist with casteism.
the writer has done extensive research. really good.
Namaste Agniveer-ji
This is a great site and a lovely article on the caste system. Regarding when caste system started, is it fair to say that it was already present at the time of Mahabharata, since we can see the kind of treatment Karna received before Duryodhana made him a prince. Even after that, we see people still referring to his birth.
Thanks in advance for your clarification
[…] So Manusmriti is about Varna system, technically. Not about caste system. Manu Smriti and Shudras […]
[…] अधिक भेसळ झालेली दिसते. (पहा- http://agniveer.com/manu-smriti-and-shudras/). रामायणात सुद्धा अग्निपरीक्षेच्या […]
2.238: One should acquire knowledge even from a person born in a low family otherwise. Similarly, one should accept a noble woman as wife even if her family is otherwise not up to mark.
NOW, you are saying Sir, that the BIRTH has NO relation to VARNA according to Manu but in this (your own post and the translation given therein) “person BORN in a LOW FAMILY…” (emphasis supplied) … so how a person is BORN in a LOW FAMILY if FAMILIES are NOT CONSIDERED LOW SIR….I find that very difficult
Here lower family means an uneducated family.Hope you got it. A person who born to uneducated parents can be called a person born in lower family. But should be treated with all due respect, hope you missed that!
[…] Manu Smriti and Shudras […]
[…] Original post in English is available at http://agniveer.com/manu-smriti-and-shudras/ […]
ek baar reservation band hone do jo sikhs me caste system ko mazboot kr rha hai
aap pandto ne jo muslmaano dalito or sikho pr jitne b ateyaachar dharam ke naam mr hindio se krvaae hai is sab ka badla ek ek hindu ki khoon ki boond se liya jayega
[…] 1. His allegations on Hinduism 2. Reservation 3. Caste politics 4. Opposition of Manusmriti […]
Manusmriti virtually delegates lower castes to servants of higher castes. It is plain clear. Child marriage is permitted as well. Instead of defelcting, people should accept the reality.
[…] 1. His allegations on Hinduism 2. Reservation 3. Caste politics 4. Opposition of Manusmriti […]
Sir, Kindly let me know your view on below words from Manu Smriti:
Here are some of the ‘celebrated’ derogatory comments about women in the Manusmriti :
1. “Swabhav ev narinam …..” – 2/213. It is the nature of women to seduce men in this world; for that reason the wise are never unguarded in the company of females.
2. “Avidvam samlam………..” – 2/214. Women, true to their class character, are capable of leading astray men in this world, not only a fool but even a learned and wise man. Both become slaves of desire.
3. “Matra swastra ………..” – 2/215. Wise people should avoid sitting alone with one’s mother, daughter or sister. Since carnal desire is always strong, it can lead to temptation.
4. “Naudwahay……………..” – 3/8. One should not marry women who has have reddish hair, redundant parts of the body [such as six fingers], one who is often sick, one without hair or having excessive hair and one who has red eyes.
5. “Nraksh vraksh ………..” – 3/9. One should not marry women whose names are similar to constellations, trees, rivers, those from a low caste, mountains, birds, snakes, slaves or those whose names inspires terror.
6. “Yasto na bhavet ….. …..” – 3/10. Wise men should not marry women who do not have a brother and whose parents are not socially well known.
7. “Uchayangh…………….” – 3/11. Wise men should marry only women who are free from bodily defects, with beautiful names, grace/gait like an elephant, moderate hair on the head and body, soft limbs and small teeth.
8. “Shudr-aiv bharya………” – 3/12.Brahman men can marry Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaish and even Shudra women but Shudra men can marry only Shudra women.
9. “Na Brahman kshatriya..” – 3/14. Although Brahman, Kshatriya and Vaish men have been allowed inter-caste marriages, even in distress they should not marry Shudra women.
10. “Heenjati striyam……..” – 3/15. When twice born [dwij=Brahman, Kshatriya and Vaish] men in their folly marry low caste Shudra women, they are responsible for the degradation of their whole family. Accordingly, their children adopt all the demerits of the Shudra caste.
11. “Shudram shaynam……” – 3/17. A Brahman who marries a Shudra woman, degrades himself and his whole family ,becomes morally degenerated , loses Brahman status and his children too attain status of shudra.
12. “Daiv pitrya………………” – 3/18. The offerings made by such a person at the time of established rituals are neither accepted by God nor by the departed soul; guests also refuse to have meals with him and he is bound to go to hell after death.
13. “Chandalash ……………” – 3/240. Food offered and served to Brahman after Shradh ritual should not be seen by a chandal, a pig, a cock,a dog, and a menstruating women.
14. “Na ashniyat…………….” – 4/43. A Brahman, true defender of his class, should not have his meals in the company of his wife and even avoid looking at her. Furthermore, he should not look towards her when she is having her meals or when she sneezes/yawns.
15. “Na ajyanti……………….” – 4/44. A Brahman in order to preserve his energy and intellect, must not look at women who applies collyrium to her eyes, one who is massaging her nude body or one who is delivering a child.
16. “Mrshyanti…………….” – 4/217. One should not accept meals from a woman who has extra marital relations; nor from a family exclusively dominated/managed by women or a family whose 10 days of impurity because of death have not passed.
17. “Balya va………………….” – 5/150. A female child, young woman or old woman is not supposed to work independently even at her place of residence.
18. “Balye pitorvashay…….” – 5/151. Girls are supposed to be in the custody of their father when they are children, women must be under the custody of their husband when married and under the custody of her son as widows. In no circumstances is she allowed to assert herself independently.
19. “Asheela kamvrto………” – 5/157. Men may be lacking virtue, be sexual perverts, immoral and devoid of any good qualities, and yet women must constantly worship and serve their husbands.
20. “Na ast strinam………..” – 5/158. Women have no divine right to perform any religious ritual, nor make vows or observe a fast. Her only duty is to obey and please her husband and she will for that reason alone be exalted in heaven.
21. “Kamam to………………” – 5/160. At her pleasure [after the death of her husband], let her emaciate her body by living only on pure flowers, roots of vegetables and fruits. She must not even mention the name of any other men after her husband has died.
22. “Vyabhacharay…………” – 5/167. Any women violating duty and code of conduct towards her husband, is disgraced and becomes a patient of leprosy. After death, she enters womb of Jackal.
23. “Kanyam bhajanti……..” – 8/364. In case women enjoy sex with a man from a higher caste, the act is not punishable. But on the contrary, if women enjoy sex with lower caste men, she is to be punished and kept in isolation.
24. “Utmam sevmansto…….” – 8/365. In case a man from a lower caste enjoys sex with a woman from a higher caste, the person in question is to be awarded the death sentence. And if a person satisfies his carnal desire with women of his own caste, he should be asked to pay compensation to the women’s faith.
25. “Ya to kanya…………….” – 8/369. In case a woman tears the membrane [hymen] of her Vagina, she shall instantly have her head shaved or two fingers cut off and made to ride on Donkey.
26. “Bhartaram…………….” – 8/370. In case a women, proud of the greatness of her excellence or her relatives, violates her duty towards her husband, the King shall arrange to have her thrown before dogs at a public place.
27. “Pita rakhshati……….” – 9/3. Since women are not capable of living independently, she is to be kept under the custody of her father as child, under her husband as a woman and under her son as widow.
28. “Imam hi sarw………..” – 9/6. It is the duty of all husbands to exert total control over their wives. Even physically weak husbands must strive to control their wives.
29. “Pati bharyam ……….” – 9/8. The husband, after the conception of his wife, becomes the embryo and is born again of her. This explains why women are called Jaya.
30. “Panam durjan………” – 9/13. Consuming liquor, association with wicked persons, separation from her husband, rambling around, sleeping for unreasonable hours and dwelling -are six demerits of women.
31. “Naita rupam……………” – 9/14. Such women are not loyal and have extra marital relations with men without consideration for their age.
32. “Poonshchalya…………” – 9/15. Because of their passion for men, immutable temper and natural heartlessness, they are not loyal to their husbands.
33. “Na asti strinam………” – 9/18. While performing namkarm and jatkarm, Vedic mantras are not to be recited by women, because women are lacking in strength and knowledge of Vedic texts. Women are impure and represent falsehood.
34. “Devra…sapinda………” – 9/58. On failure to produce offspring with her husband, she may obtain offspring by cohabitation with her brother-in-law [devar] or with some other relative [sapinda] on her in-law’s side.
35. “Vidwayam…………….” – 9/60. He who is appointed to cohabit with a widow shall approach her at night, be anointed with clarified butter and silently beget one son, but by no means a second one.
36. “Yatha vidy……………..” – 9/70. In accordance with established law, the sister-in-law [bhabhi] must be clad in white garments; with pure intent her brother-in-law [devar] will cohabitate with her until she conceives.
37. “Ati kramay……………” – 9/77. Any women who disobey orders of her lethargic, alcoholic and diseased husband shall be deserted for three months and be deprived of her ornaments.
38. “Vandyashtamay…….” – 9/80. A barren wife may be superseded in the 8th year; she whose children die may be superseded in the 10th year and she who bears only daughters may be superseded in the 11th year; but she who is quarrelsome may be superseded without delay.
39. “Trinsha……………….” – 9/93. In case of any problem in performing religious rites, males between the age of 24 and 30 should marry a female between the age of 8 and 12.
40. “Yambrahmansto…….” – 9/177. In case a Brahman man marries Shudra woman, their son will be called ‘Parshav’ or ‘Shudra’ because his social existence is like a dead body.