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GiveAahuti

UPI
agniveerupi@sbi,
agniveer.eazypay@icici

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[email protected]

Agniveer® is serving Dharma since 2008. This initiative is NO WAY associated with the defence forces scheme launched by Indian Govt in 2022

HomeDiscover HinduismVedas - Five Principles

Part 6 – Why other methods fail?

Sanjeev Newar
By Sanjeev Newar
Read Post Disclaimer

It is possible that this post is based on the translations and commentaries of Islamic texts like Quran, Hadiths etc. as published by all major Islamic publishing sources. These are the publicly available translations that are used for promotion of Islam by prominent representatives.

We, however, believe that most of these texts have been wrongly translated, misinterpreted, misquoted or even have been tampered with and interpolated to suit the selfish designs of proponents of Islam after Muhammad. Thus, we believe that original Islam and original Quran of Muhammad are totally different from what have been propagated by his followers in name of Islam. There are few minority groups in Muslims whose scholars subscribe to our views and interpret/translate Islamic texts differently or even refuse to consider the available Quran and Hadiths as authentic. But these scholars themselves are considered Kafirs and are condemned by a dominant elite group of Islam. Thus, when we refer to Islam, we actually imply these dominant elites of Islam and not Muslims or all Islamic scholars in general.

Wherever we critically evaluate Muhammad, we imply the fictitious Muhammad propagated by these false texts or their wrong translations and not the original Muhammad. We have high regard for original Muhammad who stood for non-violence and tolerance. Similarly, when we analyze Islamic texts, we refer to these questionable translations/versions and NOT original texts.

Further, we have a sense of the highest level of brotherhood for Muslims in general. Wherever we use the word Muslim in a critical manner, it refers to false representatives of Islam and not Muslims in general. Readers are requested to keep this in mind to understand the correct perspective of such posts on this website.

Nowhere should they assume the words like Islam, Quran, Prophet etc. to be referring to original noble entities, unless it has been referred in a positive light. We restrict ourselves only to notions prevalent in minds of fanatics and those without reason.

अस्वीकरण पढ़ें

इस पूरी वेबसाईट में जहाँ भी ‘इस्लाम’ वा ‘मुसलमान’ वा पैग़म्बर आदि मज़हबी शब्दों का प्रयोग हुआ है, उसका अर्थ केवल और केवल इस्लाम वा मुसलमान वा पैग़म्बर आदि शब्दों की वह व्याख्या है जो कट्टर इस्लाम के मशहूर और लोकप्रिय प्रचारक जैसे - ज़ाकिर नाईक़, अंजम चौधरी, हाफ़िज़ सईद, मौलाना इसरार अहमद, मौलाना मसूद अज़हर और उनके समर्थक करते हैं जिसके अनुसार हर ग़ैर-मुसलमान जहन्नम/नर्क की आग में जलेगा और हर इस्लाम छोड़ने वाले को क़त्ल कर देना चाहिए।

इस पूरी वेबसाईट में जहाँ भी ‘क़ुरान’ शब्द प्रयुक्त हुआ है, उसका अर्थ क़ुरान की पुस्तक के वो अनुवाद और व्याख्याएँ हैं जो कट्टर इस्लाम के प्रतिनिधियों द्वारा इंटरनेट और अन्य स्थानों पर प्रचारित-प्रसारित की जाती हैं जिन्हें पढ़कर कमज़ोर दिल के लोग कट्टरता की दिशा में मुड़ रहे हैं। हम जानते हैं कि क़ुरान व उपरिलिखित शब्दों की कुछ व्याख्याएँ ऐसी भी हैं जो हिंसा को आज के दिन ठीक नहीं समझतीं, एवं ग़ैरमज़हबी मानवता पर बल देती है पर ऐसी व्याख्याएँ और व्याख्याता कट्टर इस्लाम के प्रतिनिधियों और उनके अनुयायियों की दृष्टि में मुर्तद (मुसलमान जिसने इस्लाम छोड़ दिया हो) घोषित किए गए हैं। ऐसे व्याख्याता और उनकी व्याख्याएँ इस वेबसाईट के विषय नहीं हैं। चिंता का विषय है कि आज इंटर्नेट आदि माध्यमों में कट्टरवादी व्याख्याओं का बाहुल्य है एवं उदारवादी सहिष्णु व्याख्याएँ दुष्प्राप्य हैं।

हम मानते हैं कि मूल इस्लाम, पैग़म्बर, क़ुरान आदि बहुत प्रेम और आनंद सिखाते होंगे। परंतु इस वेबसाईट में इन शब्दों से केवल वो अर्थ लिए जाएँ जो नवीन लोगों ने अपने हिसाब से अपने मिलावटी ग्रंथ/अनुवाद बना लिए हैं। हम इन मिलावटी ग्रंथों/अनुवादों को ठीक नहीं मानते और हमारी इस्लाम, पैग़म्बर या क़ुरान आदि विषयों की व्याख्या को आज के कट्टरवादी प्रचलित/मिलावटी अनुवादों के संदर्भ में ही लिया जाए। हमारी कोई बात मूल इस्लाम, पैग़म्बर और क़ुरान के लिए नहीं है। उसके लिए तो बस सम्मान है।

किसी भी व्यक्ति, समुदाय, उदारवादी विचारधारा की भावना को ठेस पहुँचाना इस वेबसाईट का उद्देश्य नहीं है। किंतु विषय गम्भीर है, संवेदनशील है। प्रचारित इतिहास पर प्रश्नचिन्ह उठाता है। कुछ स्थानों पर एतिहासिक विषयों को नाटकीय रूप में भी प्रस्तुत किया गया है। अतः यह निवेदन है कि यदि इन विषयों को लेकर आप किंचित भी संवेदनशील है तो इस वेबसाईट को आगे न पढ़ें। यह वेबसाईट केवल परिपक्व मनस हेतु है जो इस अस्वीकरण को ध्यान रखते हुए, हमारी मूल भावना का सम्मान करते हुए, हमारे सृजनात्मक अभिव्यक्ति के अधिकार को अंगीकार कर सकें।

This entry is part [part not set] of 14 in the series Self-Help

Self-Help

Nanyah Panthah Vidyate Anayaya
There is no other way!
WHO AM I?
WHERE DID I COME FROM?
WHERE WILL I GO?
WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THIS LIFE?
Answers to these fundamental questions cannot be written in form of an essay, that you mug up and you are done! These need to be realized through all your senses and the master controller – the mind so that you grasp it fully. To talk in Vedic language. this entire life has the sole purpose of helping us seek answers to these fundamental questions, and through that achieve ultimate bliss.
To the uninitiated, the mere reference to these questions might increase the heart-beats, and even cause a sense of fear or depression. After  all we all admit that the entire human life and all our activities are in a way, an attempt to ignore this fear of death. Our mind rebels at the very thought of death – that everything shall end one day – no senses, no feelings, nothing…and forever! And yet we know that if there is one certain things about life, it is death. We tend to ignore this feeling, we tend to ignore our soul, when suddenly in middle of everything, it shouts that “one day this shall come to end.. a blank end!”. We then distract ourselves, get busy in our career, activities, entertainment etc etc. We try to desensitize ourselves to these questions. But they still exist.
Science has progressed a lot in terms of the number of toys it has produced and theories it has developed to understand these toys. But the progress of modern science has been an absolute zero when it comes to these most fundamental questions. In its frustration, it claims that anything that its instruments cannot detect does not exist! Yet, it admits that the most fundamental questions that started this journey of exploration still remain equally unanswered and it has no clue on how they can be unanswered.
Do you know why most self-help programs fail? (I came to know that the noted founder of NLP – Neuro Linguistic Patterning – that claims to change attitudes and beliefs in matter of minutes himself was a drug abuser fighting depression till last known! ) The reason that these programs fail is that they want you to get motivated and inspired but fail to understand and explain WHY? The human mind, when it knows that despite all great successes, highest levels of motivation, enthusiasm, charisma, blah blah…one day the show shall come to a dead end; it reasons – why the hell should I bother to change when no change is permanent? When it all appears so purposeless, the mind tends to stick to the directions it has already undertaken. The motivation to self-help ceases to exist in wake of an impending end of everything that is definite.
One gets into spiritualism to seek answers to these questions. There are momentary moments of happiness when one reads about stories of Heaven, Hell, Lord, Prophet, Avatars, etc. This is so soothing and relaxing. We tend to stick with these and dwell deeper and deeper. “No!”, the mind decides, “I shall analyze no further. This has to be the answer because I can no more tolerate the questions can shake me to end!”. But the questions remain. The loopholes in the fantastic stories of miracles are amply evident to the mind. It knows that it has never seen a single miracle ever and has only heard stories about it. Yet the solution to these puzzling questions lie only in blind belief in these miraculous assumptions that have never ever happened in life! The soul rebels somewhere, “Hey! This seems to be not true? Get better answers!”. And mind replies, “Shut up!”. When sound of soul becomes louder, we drown it into the hymns, songs of faith, recitations, etc etc – whatever way we can. Thus the business of spiritualism flourishes! And we remain the scapegoats with these unanswered questions.
Vedas succeed where all these approaches fail. It provides such a scientific framework to address these questions that once this is in place, there is no way that any form of fear or doubt can even touch upon us. As we analyze and explore these questions further, with the Vedic toolkit, the doubts start vanishing, motivation starts emerging from the core, enthusiasm becomes our fundamental nature and we are able to enjoy the present and look ahead in future with a level of bliss that was never possible so far. And as we progress this keeps increasing. The very process of seeking these answers becomes a source of permanent happiness that we had been seeking so far!
It does not remain a mechanical process like NLP, it does not demand blind belief in any stories or miracles, it does not demand shutting down the analytical brain. On contrary, it is so intuitive, so much in sync with our true nature and so logical that its a part of our own self. And hence we no more require any further self-help of any sort. Vedas say that the entire knowledge of Vedas is already within you. What is means is that the Vedic knowledge appears as if it were you who gave the answers. There is no external imposition required anymore. It all comes from within. And that is why it works! That is why it is the only approach that works!
We shall discover the answers very soon.
By the way, don’t worry – Vedas prove that we can never die, because we define the very opposite of death…forever!
This article in Gujrati is also available at http://agniveer.com/othermethods-gu/
[mybooktable book=”science-blissful-living” display=”summary” buybutton_shadowbox=”false”][mybooktable book=”complete-works-agniveer” display=”summary” buybutton_shadowbox=”false”]

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Read Post Disclaimer

It is possible that this post is based on the translations and commentaries of Islamic texts like Quran, Hadiths etc. as published by all major Islamic publishing sources. These are the publicly available translations that are used for promotion of Islam by prominent representatives.

We, however, believe that most of these texts have been wrongly translated, misinterpreted, misquoted or even have been tampered with and interpolated to suit the selfish designs of proponents of Islam after Muhammad. Thus, we believe that original Islam and original Quran of Muhammad are totally different from what have been propagated by his followers in name of Islam. There are few minority groups in Muslims whose scholars subscribe to our views and interpret/translate Islamic texts differently or even refuse to consider the available Quran and Hadiths as authentic. But these scholars themselves are considered Kafirs and are condemned by a dominant elite group of Islam. Thus, when we refer to Islam, we actually imply these dominant elites of Islam and not Muslims or all Islamic scholars in general.

Wherever we critically evaluate Muhammad, we imply the fictitious Muhammad propagated by these false texts or their wrong translations and not the original Muhammad. We have high regard for original Muhammad who stood for non-violence and tolerance. Similarly, when we analyze Islamic texts, we refer to these questionable translations/versions and NOT original texts.

Further, we have a sense of the highest level of brotherhood for Muslims in general. Wherever we use the word Muslim in a critical manner, it refers to false representatives of Islam and not Muslims in general. Readers are requested to keep this in mind to understand the correct perspective of such posts on this website.

Nowhere should they assume the words like Islam, Quran, Prophet etc. to be referring to original noble entities, unless it has been referred in a positive light. We restrict ourselves only to notions prevalent in minds of fanatics and those without reason.

अस्वीकरण पढ़ें

इस पूरी वेबसाईट में जहाँ भी ‘इस्लाम’ वा ‘मुसलमान’ वा पैग़म्बर आदि मज़हबी शब्दों का प्रयोग हुआ है, उसका अर्थ केवल और केवल इस्लाम वा मुसलमान वा पैग़म्बर आदि शब्दों की वह व्याख्या है जो कट्टर इस्लाम के मशहूर और लोकप्रिय प्रचारक जैसे - ज़ाकिर नाईक़, अंजम चौधरी, हाफ़िज़ सईद, मौलाना इसरार अहमद, मौलाना मसूद अज़हर और उनके समर्थक करते हैं जिसके अनुसार हर ग़ैर-मुसलमान जहन्नम/नर्क की आग में जलेगा और हर इस्लाम छोड़ने वाले को क़त्ल कर देना चाहिए।

इस पूरी वेबसाईट में जहाँ भी ‘क़ुरान’ शब्द प्रयुक्त हुआ है, उसका अर्थ क़ुरान की पुस्तक के वो अनुवाद और व्याख्याएँ हैं जो कट्टर इस्लाम के प्रतिनिधियों द्वारा इंटरनेट और अन्य स्थानों पर प्रचारित-प्रसारित की जाती हैं जिन्हें पढ़कर कमज़ोर दिल के लोग कट्टरता की दिशा में मुड़ रहे हैं। हम जानते हैं कि क़ुरान व उपरिलिखित शब्दों की कुछ व्याख्याएँ ऐसी भी हैं जो हिंसा को आज के दिन ठीक नहीं समझतीं, एवं ग़ैरमज़हबी मानवता पर बल देती है पर ऐसी व्याख्याएँ और व्याख्याता कट्टर इस्लाम के प्रतिनिधियों और उनके अनुयायियों की दृष्टि में मुर्तद (मुसलमान जिसने इस्लाम छोड़ दिया हो) घोषित किए गए हैं। ऐसे व्याख्याता और उनकी व्याख्याएँ इस वेबसाईट के विषय नहीं हैं। चिंता का विषय है कि आज इंटर्नेट आदि माध्यमों में कट्टरवादी व्याख्याओं का बाहुल्य है एवं उदारवादी सहिष्णु व्याख्याएँ दुष्प्राप्य हैं।

हम मानते हैं कि मूल इस्लाम, पैग़म्बर, क़ुरान आदि बहुत प्रेम और आनंद सिखाते होंगे। परंतु इस वेबसाईट में इन शब्दों से केवल वो अर्थ लिए जाएँ जो नवीन लोगों ने अपने हिसाब से अपने मिलावटी ग्रंथ/अनुवाद बना लिए हैं। हम इन मिलावटी ग्रंथों/अनुवादों को ठीक नहीं मानते और हमारी इस्लाम, पैग़म्बर या क़ुरान आदि विषयों की व्याख्या को आज के कट्टरवादी प्रचलित/मिलावटी अनुवादों के संदर्भ में ही लिया जाए। हमारी कोई बात मूल इस्लाम, पैग़म्बर और क़ुरान के लिए नहीं है। उसके लिए तो बस सम्मान है।

किसी भी व्यक्ति, समुदाय, उदारवादी विचारधारा की भावना को ठेस पहुँचाना इस वेबसाईट का उद्देश्य नहीं है। किंतु विषय गम्भीर है, संवेदनशील है। प्रचारित इतिहास पर प्रश्नचिन्ह उठाता है। कुछ स्थानों पर एतिहासिक विषयों को नाटकीय रूप में भी प्रस्तुत किया गया है। अतः यह निवेदन है कि यदि इन विषयों को लेकर आप किंचित भी संवेदनशील है तो इस वेबसाईट को आगे न पढ़ें। यह वेबसाईट केवल परिपक्व मनस हेतु है जो इस अस्वीकरण को ध्यान रखते हुए, हमारी मूल भावना का सम्मान करते हुए, हमारे सृजनात्मक अभिव्यक्ति के अधिकार को अंगीकार कर सकें।

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Why I am a Hindu
Sanjeev Newar
Sanjeev Newarhttps://sanjeevnewar.com
I am founder of Agniveer. Pursuing Karma Yog. I am an alumnus of IIT-IIM and hence try to find my humble ways to repay for the most wonderful educational experience that my nation gifted me with.

69 COMMENTS

  2. अपने अद्भुत ज्ञान से हमें प्रबुद्ध करने के लिए हार्दिक धन्यवाद !

  4. Dear agniveer jee,
    I am new to your website. Amazing and proud to be a Hindu.
    I would like to know, from where the original Vedas and upnishadas can be obtained? Because these treasures of knowledge has already been altered by Macaulay.
    Regards,
    Amarjeet
    [email protected]

    • @Faraz:
      [Sigh…] No Faraz. You dont get to decide what constitutes inimitability. You have a vested interest. Have you heard about the “Book of Mormon Challenge”?
      Here it is.

      • @KalBhairav, the term “inimitability” used here is in the objective sense. It is not talkin about the “wow!” factor, which I agree would be subjective, but its talking about the impossibility of coming up with a piece of literature in the particular structure defined. We will accept it even if the attempted work is not aesthetically appealing like the Quran. All one has to do is to imitate the structure. Many have tried over the centuries and failed and the challenge remains. You haven’t read the challenge I suppose and have thus made your assumptions.

      • And by the by, comparing the Quranic challenge with the book of Mormon smacks of insincerity in determining the truth. The Quranic challenge is open to just anyone under the sun! to come up with just 3 lines!! 3 lines in the Quranic structure and the challenge is broken! Not required for it to be even quarter as beautiful as the Quran.. Just the structure, thats all. Cant get more objective and simpler than that.

      • Now, Faraz, you contradict yourself. How? Well, when you talk of something being “aesthetically appealing,” you are definitely straying into the domain of the subjectivity. What is “aesthetically appealing” to you, may not necessarily be to me (in this case the quran). Now, talking about the quranic challenge, this is a red herring that very often dawahgandists keep harping on time and time again. It would really be an exercise in futility.

      • @Faraz:
        Just the structure, thats all. Cant get more objective and simpler than that.
        Do you know Arabic?

      • @NaRuto, I think you and the speaker in the video have clearly misunderstood the Quranic challenge. The speaker more so deliberately misunderstood if not you. By giving examples of Picasso’s “inimitability” you are not comparing apples with apples. I already explained its not the “Wow! factor or ‘Amazing!'” kind of inimitability but one of mere performance. So in Picasso’s example (mind you, this is not a good analogy but am forced to get simpler in my explanation) the challenge is one of just painting. Not unique painting, beautiful painting, etc, but just “painting” which we say nobody can do although all the requisite tools are at their disposal. The same response applies to the “historian” in the video who makes a sensational comment on the Quran saying “better things have been written” (according to him). And the theory of Arabic being made around the Quran is so absurd that I am ashamed to reply to that. Surely they could’ve done better? Leave alone the fact that historical pieces of literature predating Islam in the same language and the same rules of grammar as the Quran are still prevalent, and the fact that the non-Muslim critics at the time of the Quran being revealed never made such absurd claims as they spoke the same language but merely made failed attempts at matching it, and the fact that the rules of classical Arabic grammar are well known to even coptic Christian Arabs whose ancestors were Christians even before Islam, and the fact that Quran was memorised word to word, dot to dot by the early Muslims who went to all corners of the world propagating the same Quran in the East as the one in the West and the fact that this culture has been carried on over the ages till today where millions around the world have memorised the Quran to the dot, but just using common sense one could understand that even if it was edited over time, how is it that the Quran in its entirety is so perfect in its inimitability that if you remove a word or add a word it ceases to be like the Quran and that…

      • @SDC if you read my comment again, I said need NOT be aesthetically appealing. So straying the discussion into the subjectivity of aestheticism is of no use because I am not even including it in my challenge on behalf of the Quran. I mentioned the point to stress on the objectivity of the challenge.
        @KalBhairav, the website I shared the link of is in English and someone who understands English can understand the miracle of the Quran without needing to know Arabic, through that site. The rules of Arabic grammar and all possible tools in Arabic literature that are at the disposal of a person willing to take up the challenge, can be read and understood in English as well. If you cannot take up the challenge due to language handicap, then just research on whether anyone has ever been able to break the challenge in 1400 years; has anyone ever been able to match the structure of the Quran, if not the entire book, just 3 lines. There are millions of non-Muslim Arabs and several have tried and failed. In the contemporary world, the Christian missionaries especially have employed many Arabs to try and break the challenge. Take it to the anti-Islamic brigade and ask them to use the most sophisticated software to produce mere sense in 3 lines in the structure of the Quran. An analogy could be- a sonnet, no ‘Shakespearesque’ sonnet, just a simple sonnet that’s all, with all its rules that qualifies it to be a sonnet. The entire Quran falls into a unique, inimitable structure but all it asks its challengers is to produce 3 lines and not the entire book. Elaboration here- http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/?page_id=377
        As for the Mormon “challenge”, my explanation above should suffice to make a sincere person with common sense understand how its different from the Quranic challenge. Yet, to end the (senseless) argument, the Quranic challenge is not restricted to someone of a particular age, it does not ask you to produce knowledge or information like the history of some remote land (the level of information of the…

      • @Faraz:
        Let me ask again – Do YOU know Arabic?
        The link was pointless. It meant nothing to me. It basically provides some Arabic words and provides the English purport of these. I would like to focus on this:
        Indeed your enemy is the one who is cut off
        Sorry, but this is nonsense. When God is communicating with humans, if he is going to talk in divisive terms like enemies and that they will be cut off, etc., it only serves to reinforce the message the Quran/Allah/Mohammedans are still seeing the world in terms of Muslims and non-Muslims and fight and bloodshed.
        When God communicates with humans, I am looking for some profound thought, some philosophical gem, or some way in which all of us can live together peacefully. This verse scores an F(ail) grade in such respects. Instead, the verse in the Quran which is inimitable is a verse that curses the non-believers.
        Whether this is inimitable or not, I dont know. It is in Arabic. I dont know Arabic and unless you clarify, it appears neither do you. You dont even KNOW Arabic grammar and are here asking me to “challenge” it. You simply take what others have told you.
        Dont you have a skeptical mind that wants to evaluate things on your own before accepting purported truths pedalled in the name of religion? – Just asking.

      • @ KB
        Dont you have a skeptical mind that wants to evaluate things on your own before accepting purported truths pedalled in the name of religion? – Just asking.
        Totally! I agree with you on one thing at least KalBhariav. Do you do that by the way? How can anyone believe about what Islam is from a website like Agniveer’s who, aside from not being a scholar, in all probability does not know Arabic nor has studied the Quran except for what he has read up on sites like faithfreedom or any other anti Islamic website (This is an assumption. Please prove me wrong if either you or Agniveer himself can.)
        “Purported truths pedalled in the name of religion.”
        Did you read this article from Agniveer? Is it even faintly scholarly?
        http://agniveer.com/523/christ-krishna/
        Would you agree with what he has written there?

      • I still fail to understand your obsession with the supposed inimitability of the quran. What has it got to do with the relevance of that literature as a guide to mankind? Do you mean to say that inimitability is the touchstone of divinity?

  6. @hamza:
    There are MANY things I probably dont agree with Agniveer! Just because I post here dont assume all Hindus here will nod their head in unison.
    As regards the Krishna – Jesus article. I dont know the veracity of claims made. The article seems to be adapted from another publication and that other publication is cited at the end. Why should I have an opinion on the contents of the article to make the points that I am making? [You seem to have a habit of not answering the questions I pose but instead end up wanting my answers to some hypotheticals you pose and set up conditions before you respond to straight forward questions.]
    The point I raised to Faraz was, he himself doesnt know Arabic [do you?] and then he wants me to come up with a verse which beats the linguistic construction of the Quran in Arabic. He bases that off some article on some website when the verse in question itself is so commonplace by Quranic standards! [Allah is with believers, He will burn Kufrs in eternal hellfire, If only I got a cent for everytime I come across this these in the supposed “eternal word of Allah”, etc.] Seriously, hamza, do you really really believe Quran is the actual eternal word of Allah?
    Is it even faintly scholarly?
    When talking of concepts like God, etc., what counts as scholarly? Is it publishing in some peer-reviewed journal, etc. that you have in mind?

    • @KB
      I brought this point up because you keep commenting about Islam without having studied the whole religion where as you also say to others “Dont you have a skeptical mind that wants to evaluate things on your own before accepting purported truths pedalled in the name of religion? ” That’s why I had to ask this. Is your impression of Islam derived from what you have heard from others? Or if you have actually honestly have read through just the Quran (or its translation) and concluded by applying your own mind that it is a violent book which preaches about violence and death?
      And yes, seriously I do really really believe Quran is the actual eternal word of Allah.
      Also, yes I do know some Arabic. Not very fluent in it though.
      “Allah is with believers, He will burn Kufrs in eternal hellfire, If only I got a cent for everytime I come across this these in the supposed “eternal word of Allah”, etc.”
      You seem to have a problem with Kufrs burning in hell. I actually would like to know what you understand by the word Kufr.
      “When talking of concepts like God, etc., what counts as scholarly? Is it publishing in some peer-reviewed journal, etc. that you have in mind?”
      lets just apply the general meaning of scholarly here. That itself should convey my meaning.
      Scholarly:
      1.of, like, or befitting a scholar: scholarly habits.
      2.having the qualities of a scholar: a scholarly person.
      3.concerned with academic learning and research.
      And Scholar is one who is “a learned or erudite person, especially one who has profound knowledge of a particular subject.”
      The above definitions are taken from dictionary.com.
      Did I miss out on answering any other of your questions here?

  7. @KalBhairav, see, you are again straying the discussion. I really hate useless arguments that stray into unconnected things like the branches of the ideology, the history of countries and ultimately ending up with Indo-pak cricket matches! You wanna have a discussion on the philosophy of the Quran? That has to be done on a separate platform and on a new thread. I was only focusing on whether or not the Quran is the word of God which you dismiss with just a few words without as much explaining the rationale. Shall I give you the rationale? It is that, after you believe in the existence of God it is imperative to learn what that God wants of us. To determine what is the true message of God we need to look for the proofs in the form of miracles which everyone can witness. And hence the exercise. That also answers your last question on whether I take things without evaluation.
    Regarding looking for a philosophical gem, that is very subjective again. So we can go on debating on what is a gem and what is not with our limited minds. Only God in His infinte wisdom knows best as to whats good and whats bad. So all we have to do is to determine whether something is from God or not. That cant be done in a subjective way such as deciding what is appealing to our hearts and what is not. The verses of the Quran have to be understood in their correct context. Cherry picking can be done from almost any book to make it seem atrocious. Is that clever? Just like how kids cant understand why a vaccination jab and bitter pills and boring studies are good, and watching tv all day and having chocolates and ice cream for breakfast, lunch and dinner are bad, and they learn this with maturity and age and experience after having a more profound understanding of the world, similarly, you wont be able to understand the true essence of the Quran with a superficial reading done with the sole intention to find errors supported with a squinted-eye exegesis by non-scholarly non-Muslims who haven’t gone farther in their Quranic studies than…

    • There is a limitation on the number of characters in the comment?? Aahh.. pain to type it again.. Anyways, I hope I have sent some msg across

    • @Faraz:
      Do YOU know Arabic? Are YOU in a position to be a judge YOURSELF when someone presents a verse which has superior linguistics?
      There were 30 challenge points in the Book of Mormon challenge. It is open to all. Forget about the age issue, look at the others. I feel, since I know English, I would be able to compare the Book of Mormon and something else that challenges it.

      • @KalBhairav, I suppose you utilize all your free time on such arguments and hence require explanation on a point that has already been covered albeit briefly. I try my best to use my time in the most productive way. I have an obligation to convey the true message of God and save people from going to hellfire. If you read my previous comments you’ll see that I have pointed out that my knowing or not knowing Arabic is irrelevant to the topic of the Quranic miracle. I’m merely conveying. However, I also explained that one need not necessarily know Arabic to understand the miracle of the Quran. Oh, now dont tell me you want me to baby you on how to go about verifying the claims put forth in English. Do you? Well, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you actually do not know how to, rather than assume that you do not want to. So briefly put- read the argument and understand it. Verify the claims by checking the tools (such as number of Arabic letters, rules of Arabic grammar, etc) against a 3rd party source such as a non-Muslim Arab or books/softwares that help you learn Arabic through English. Once that’s clear, look at the examples of Quranic verses given, in Arabic with English transliteration. Pick up a copy of the Quran with English transliteration and check it against the same to verify the accuracy. Then try to ascertain if its fitting into the other defined structures of Arabic. Verify it again with other 3rd parties. There are various of ways. Instead, you focus on my character. Whether or not I am bigot, whether or not I evaluate things before accepting them, etc.. How does it matter? Even if you believe me to be so, it only speaks about my deficiency which doesn’t affect the nature of the miracle that I am merely conveying. I am not replying to your comments on why Allah did this or that, whether Allah has granted us free will, etc., as they are deviating the discussion which will make us lose focus of our main discussion. Those have to be discussed separately as their understanding…

      • (contd..) involves going beyond literal interpretation of things without looking at the larger context. I advise hamza too to avoid falling into the trap of debating the contents of the Quran with someone who doesn’t even understand the premise upon which these verses were revealed, who hasn’t read and understood Islam in its entirety and in its right manner to appreciate the superior wisdom, morality and methodology for the best functioning of the world, and who wants his immediate reading and literal interpretation to satisfy his limited understanding of morality and philosophy, for him to accept it. It will just be fruitless. As for the Mormon, ignore the age point? why? that is one of the requisites.. fyi, I only picked the 1st two requisites for the challenge to explain why its subjective and why its not a “challenge” as such and why it is not comparable to the Quranic challenge. that doesn’t mean the other points are any less silly.. I dont feel the need to deliberate upon it again.. I shall end here if I do not find any purpose of further elaboration.

      • @Faraz:
        read the argument and understand it. Verify the claims by checking the tools (such as number of Arabic letters, rules of Arabic grammar, etc) against a 3rd party source such as a non-Muslim Arab or books/softwares that help you learn Arabic through English. Once that’s clear, look at the examples of Quranic verses given, in Arabic with English transliteration. Pick up a copy of the Quran with English transliteration and check it against the same to verify the accuracy. Then try to ascertain if its fitting into the other defined structures of Arabic. Verify it again with other 3rd parties.
        A non-Arabic speaker has to go through so many hoops before being convinced about this. What should a native Arab speaker have to go through before being convinced about this?

    • Dear Faraz,
      It is not somebody’s fault that someone is muslim, christian or jewish. But what these man – made religions do not realize that these are just a small portion of Almighty God’s Eternal Truth. That is why you find ‘interpretations’ and ‘revelations’ in these religions; simply because nothing at all can be proved.
      Since you are muslim, I do not mean to be offensive, nothing at all in your quran can be proved (unless of course you consider word play or minor sorcery as ‘proofs’). Even then, allah is just a low level demi god / spirit that you are mistaking as the Supreme God.
      The Eternal Truth of the Ved is realized knowledge; it is not based on fantasy, or mental visions or low level sorcery. Please believe myself when I say that I have had a vision of Mohammad – It was just before waking up that I saw this very bright light and a man in complete white robes and a long beard actually walking over me as I lay there half concious. He actually started at my feet and then went over my head. And that was all.
      While quran, bible, torah give nice stories and tidbits of spirituality here and there, the followers of these religions actually confine the Almighty to a little book. And the rest is blind faith and hype. Sanatan Dharm (the Eternal Law of Almighty God ), as described in the Ved is the only complete Eternal Truth. The Ved do not claim copyright to the truth, instead, they provide instructions on finding out the truth. And mind you, these prayers are the most difficult and extreme out of all other belief systems. And understandably very few chosen souls actually reach a successful conclusion. Every claim made in the Ved can be verified (although it is a sin against Almighty God to initiate worship with the lowly goal of just proving a point). Also, you will be surprised how many of our holy men do not know a word in the Ved, for realizing the Eternal Truth is not a matter of mugging up a little quran, bible or torah; or praying 5, 3 or 2 times a day.
      I am sorry, but for some people here, the grapes are not sour, they simply do not exist. And that is because they do not have the vision required to see the truth.

  8. @hamza:
    Is your impression of Islam derived from what you have heard from others? Or if you have actually honestly have read through just the Quran (or its translation) and concluded by applying your own mind that it is a violent book which preaches about violence and death?
    I have a Pithkall translation of the Quran. I have read it. There was no philosophical thought in there to convince me it was the word of God. One chapter of the Bhagvad Gita seems to have more spirituality and philosophy than the entire Quran. The Quran IS a violent book. Case in point – Allah himself took personal trouble to slaughter homosexuals in Lot’s village. If Allah can do that, what prevents Mohammedans today from seeking out homosexuals and slaughtering them?
    Also, yes I do know some Arabic. Not very fluent in it though.
    Do you know enough Arabic to know that it contains linguistic miracles? If someone came with a purported verse with superior linguistics, would you be in a position to judge which is better? The linguistic construction is also irrelevant when its content/meaning is about more hatred of the disbeliever.
    You seem to have a problem with Kufrs burning in hell.
    Dude. I have a problem with ANYONE burning in eternal hellfire. You dont have a problem with that?
    The above definitions are taken from dictionary dot com
    You completely missed the point. In matters of God, because God does a splendid job of hiding himself from us how does one go about deciding the issues related to truthfulness in any fashion, leave alone a “scholarly” fashion? There is no scholarly proof available thus far that even establishes the existence of the Abrahamic God and eternal hellfire and Day of Resurrection, etc.

    • @ KB
      “Case in point – Allah himself took personal trouble to slaughter homosexuals in Lot’s village. If Allah can do that, what prevents Mohammedans today from seeking out homosexuals and slaughtering them?”
      Homosexuality is not the only reason for the destruction of Lot’s village. Muslims do not kill anyone according to their own whims and fancies, they do follow the law of the land and if there is anyone who breaks the law, then he must be tried in court of law. Now please do not say that terrorists kill people and therefore all Muslims also can do such acts. It is just plain false.
      “Do you know enough Arabic to know that it contains linguistic miracles? If someone came with a purported verse with superior linguistics, would you be in a position to judge which is better? The linguistic construction is also irrelevant when its content/meaning is about more hatred of the disbeliever.”
      That is where we need scholars in Arabic to help us out.
      “Dude. I have a problem with ANYONE burning in eternal hellfire. You dont have a problem with that?”
      Anyone? You sure? Even people like Osama or Hitler?
      All you need to know is that in Allah’s court (Figuratively speaking) there will be no injustice done to ANYONE.
      Quran 4.49: Have you not seen those who claim sanctity for themselves. Nay – but Allah sanctifies whom He pleases, and they will not be dealt with injustice even equal to the extent of a Fatila (A scalish thread in the long slit of a date-stone).
      “You completely missed the point. In matters of God, because God does a splendid job of hiding himself from us how does one go about deciding the issues related to truthfulness in any fashion, leave alone a “scholarly” fashion? There is no scholarly proof available thus far that even establishes the existence of the Abrahamic God and eternal hellfire and Day of Resurrection, etc.”
      Actually I do get your point. But with YOUR above comment, do you mean to say that the term ‘Religious Scholar” is an oxymoron or something like that?…

  9. @hamza:
    Homosexuality is not the only reason for the destruction of Lot’s village.
    Irrelevant. Was prevalence of homosexuality ONE of the reason for destruction of Lot’s village? If homosexuality, by itself, is not a crime Allah punishes personally, he could have spared the homosexuals while destroying others in Lot’s village for other reasons.
    Muslims do not kill anyone according to their own whims and fancies, they do follow the law of the land and if there is anyone who breaks the law, then he must be tried in court of law. Now please do not say that terrorists kill people and therefore all Muslims also can do such acts. It is just plain false.
    It is indeed good that Muslims dont do what Allah did. In any case, the point is, was Allah justified in slaughtering homosexuals? Is that a moral act or not?
    That is where we need scholars in Arabic to help us out.
    It appears, then, that you yourself havent personally experienced the linguistics miracles of the Arabic Quran. You believe in them without evidence. You do so because Arabic scholars say it is miraculous.
    Anyone? You sure? Even people like Osama or Hitler?
    Well, if Allah is omniscient [he knew the future with 100% accuracy] and he KNEW Osama and Hitler were going to slaughter millions, Allah is the cause of these events. The only way someone can be held accountable for actions is if she had genuine free will and we can have genuine free will only if there isnt an omniscient entity that knows the future with 100% certainty.
    All you need to know is that in Allah’s court (Figuratively speaking) there will be no injustice done to ANYONE.
    What justice is there in eternal hellfire? Be more specific. In particular, explain the rationale behind the “eternality” of hellfire. Are there going to be gradations of torture in hellfire? Will some residents of hell burn in hell for a while and then will they be transfered to heaven depending on crime? Will the temperate of fire be lower for…

    • @KB
      “Was prevalence of homosexuality ONE of the reason for destruction of Lot’s village? If homosexuality, by itself, is not a crime Allah punishes personally, he could have spared the homosexuals while destroying others in Lot’s village for other reasons.”
      You don’t seem to understand. The villages were full of sin. NOT ONE SINGLE MAN except for Lot and his family were righteous and EVERYONE indulged in sins. So, my point is clearly not irrelevant.
      “It is indeed good that Muslims dont do what Allah did. In any case, the point is, was Allah justified in slaughtering homosexuals? Is that a moral act or not?”
      Muslims do exactly what Allah has prescribed them to do. And don’t break your head on trying to figure out Allah’s actions it is not humanly possible as God’s attributes are beyond human ones.
      “It appears, then, that you yourself havent personally experienced the linguistics miracles of the Arabic Quran. You believe in them without evidence. You do so because Arabic scholars say it is miraculous.”
      KB, I am sorry but you really seem to be showing double standards here or you are being just plain ignorant by making the above statement. Please tell me how you deduced that I believe in them blindly?
      “Well, if Allah is omniscient [he knew the future with 100% accuracy] and he KNEW Osama and Hitler were going to slaughter millions, Allah is the cause of these events. The only way someone can be held accountable for actions is if she had genuine free will and we can have genuine free will only if there isnt an omniscient entity that knows the future with 100% certainty.”
      Irrelevant. Answer my question first. Then will answer yours. (yo seem to always avoid answering questions I put forward to you whereas you expect me to answer each and every question. Please stay on track. Reach a proper conclusion on point in discussion. Then move on to next. No one will achieve anything if things keep going offtrack.
      “What justice is there in eternal hellfire? Be more specific. In…

      • …contd
        “What justice is there in eternal hellfire? Be more specific. In particular, explain the rationale behind the “eternality” of hellfire. Are there going to be gradations of torture in hellfire? Will some residents of hell burn in hell for a while and then will they be transfered to heaven depending on crime? Will the temperate of fire be lower for…”
        The Quran ayat that I quoted should give you enough clarification. Even still after this you would like to know rationale of eternality of hellfire, please read up the Criminal Procedure code and Indian penal code, you will understand better how punishments are granted in a court of Law. Which might give you a little better understanding on when a person is sent to life in prison or when he is sent to death. That you can compare to the final Day of Judgment.
        I did not get your response on the last bit of my previous comment. Please provide.

      • @hamza:
        The Quran ayat that I quoted should give you enough clarification.
        No it doesnt. It may be clearer if you respond to the specific questions regarding this issue I raised earlier.
        Even still after this you would like to know rationale of eternality of hellfire, please read up the Criminal Procedure code and Indian penal code, you will understand better how punishments are granted in a court of Law. Which might give you a little better understanding on when a person is sent to life in prison or when he is sent to death. That you can compare to the final Day of Judgment.
        You said earlier we cannot apply our sense of rationality to Allah’s retribution/actions. You have done another u turn here by bringing in Indian penal code. Why?

      • @KB
        “You said earlier we cannot apply our sense of rationality to Allah’s retribution/actions. You have done another u turn here by bringing in Indian penal code. Why?”
        There is no U turn there. You seem to be misinterpreting my words. The purpose of me telling you to refer the Codes was so that you could at least get an overview of how justice would be given because you asked some nonsensical questions about temperature being lower etc for lesser sinners.
        Will quote you some verses of the Quran. If you honestly want to know your answers, please STUDY these verses. Quran 74.41 to 74.56, Quran 17.18. I shall not be spoon feeding you here.

      • @hamza:
        The villages were full of sin. NOT ONE SINGLE MAN except for Lot and his family were righteous and EVERYONE indulged in sins.
        My point is straightforward and can be understood if the following questions are answered. Was there atleast one homosexual in Lot’s village who was left unslaughtered? That would indeed mean that homosexuality is not a sin worth slaughtering someone for. That then raises the question – what were the other sins that the villages were full of? Why didnt Allah wait until Day of Resurrection to slaughter these sin-committers? Why does Allah allow sins to happen now instead of slaughtering sinners now as he did in Lot’s village?
        And don’t break your head on trying to figure out Allah’s actions it is not humanly possible as God’s attributes are beyond human ones.
        You have basically shot yourself in the foot here. If we cannot apply OUR sense of morality to Allah’s actions, it is fair to call Allah malevolent by our sense of morality. If it was morally ok for Allah to slaughter sinners in Lot’s village, there should be nothing wrong with Mohammedans slaughtering sinners here and now. If Mohammedans did that they would be in Allah’s good books because they are simply following in Allah’s footsteps.
        Please tell me how you deduced that I believe in them blindly?
        You outsourced the decision of whether a verse beats the “inimitable” structure of the Quranic verse to Arabic scholars. How do you even know that the Quranic verse is linguistically miraculous?
        Regards Osama and Hitler – normal criminal justice system presumes that humans have free choice and free will. These presume that Osama and Hitler could have done otherwise than slaughter millions. But from Allah’s perspective, humans do NOT have free choice and free will. So, ultimately, the cause of the slaughter of 6 million Jews is Allah and his omniscience! Argue otherwise.

  10. @KB
    Seems like all our comments are coming incomplete. Is there any other way we can have this conversation where we do not have to type our replies over and over again?

    • Comments are meant for simple conveying of knowledge. No one has long enough time to read long comments. Also, too descriptive comment might count as spam. Even in computer programming; there is a term called as MODULAR PROGRAMMING. It says that instead of giving a large set of instructions, give some small modules to avoid users from getting annoyed. Same rule applies to comments as well. Therefore, Agniveer has recently decided to truncate the comments. You can go to very top page where you will find DISCUSSION FORUM. No word limit exists there. Type comment there and post the link here. All interested can directly reply there OR here; as they please. If required break the comment into parts. Reply one by one i.e., 1800 characters can be broken into 3 comments of 600 characters each. (Just an example, I don’t know what is the word limit here. You can estimate that by hit & trial method.) Another methodology is to use Slang terms to shorten character count but that seems an uncivilized way. So, there is a tradeoff.

  11. @Faraz:
    Essentially, for someone who doesnt know Arabic [like you and me], we have to spend some time to first learn Arabic rules of grammar, etc., before we can be moved to tears and fully convinced that Quran is the word of God. Non-Arabic speakers are unlikely to be swayed by such arguments – here on in the afterlife. Their response in the afterlife would be – “Allah, you ended up making the Quran’s miracles known only to Arabic speakers. Why? Why did my soul not take birth in an Arab-speaking family? Why was I sent to a Hindu/Indian family? How do you assign souls to newborns? What rule do you follow? Do souls have past Karma that determines who goes to which family? Why this partiality towards Arabs and Arabic speakers?”

    • Many of the companions of the Prophet SAWs were non-Arabs. The message had to come down in some language and in some land which also has its reasons if you care to study. I am not an Arab but my heart and mind are fully convinced of the proof of the Quran. My friend who is a revert to Islam from Hinduism doesn’t know Arabic but he was convinced too and he also convinced his mother about Islam. His wife is a convert to Islam as well and she actively propagates it now, and these are all well qualified and well educated people who were convinced by mind first and then by heart. The website I shared you with is by a Greek ex-atheist convert to Islam who isn’t an Arab too. Most of the people converting to Islam each year (more than 20000 in America alone) are not Arabs yet they are convinced of the Quran being from a divine source. You do not want to understand, that’s what you choose citing flimsy excuses which the millions of non-Arab converts do not give. If you will, the same time you invest in superficial reading of other ideologies and defending emotional beliefs can be well invested in determining the true source of divine knowledge. And by the by, do not think I am here to argue to save my face to bolster my ego, thats anti-Islam. Ali (RA), one of the companions of the prophet took up the challenge of a Jew in fighting him as the latter was going about attacking Islam. He got into such a position in the fight that he slew the Jew at which point the Jew spat on his face. Instead of killing the Jew he walked away saying if he attacked now it would be for his ego while he wasn’t fighting for his ego. So I do not debate to win or lose but just to try to convey the message in the best way I can. We’ll be rewarded for that irrespective of the results. So there’s no point trying to provoke me with your snide imagination of conversation with Allah on the day of Judgment. My job’s done InshaAllah. As Allah says in the Quran “You can only warn one who follows the message and fears the Most Merciful unseen. So…

      • (contd..) give him good tidings of forgiveness and noble reward.” And about some He says “And it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them – they will not believe.” .. Peace out.

      • Slight Correction- *He got into such a position in the fight that he COULD slew the Jew at which point the Jew spat on his face.

      • @Faraz:
        I am not an Arab but my heart and mind are fully convinced of the proof of the Quran.
        I am asking you to explain how you are convinced? More specifically, take the verse in question that you provided. Without knowing Arabic, how do you even know whether Hamza Tzortzis is pulling a fast one on you or not?

      • @KalBhairav, these are the same refurbished and recycled questions that I have already answered in my previous comments if you’ve cared to read on how to vet the claims of the miracle being a non-Arab.
        @SDC, have answered your question as well, please read my comments on how to determine whether or not a Message is from God and why its necessary to.
        Really cant waste time on repeating the same things.

      • @Faraz:
        You started this by posting a claim of a miraculous verse in the Quran. When probed further, you said that only someone who knows Arabic grammar will be able to realize this is a miracle. Now, the fact that people convert into Islam without knowing Arabic but still convinced about its veracity means that the verse has played no part in their conversion – if they are rational and wish to objectively examine evidence on their own.
        Thus, you have yourself run down your starting argument. Good job.

      • Faraz, I perused your comments and found nothing specific in this regard (probably, I missed out on something). If you could be kind enough to point that out to me.

      • @KalBhairav, I admire your skills of manoeuvring the actual argument and give a contrived version of what I actually said in such a fashion that someone going straight to your comment without reading through all the comments will believe in to be true and dismiss the other party’s argument altogether. //claim of “A” miraculous verse// wow! couldn’t do a better job at distorting someone’s actual claim. You are more deserving of praise of doing a good job of what you do. I have mentioned at least twice I think that the entire Quran is in a miraculous form BUT what is expected in the challenge is only 3 lines. It’s not A miraculous verse that I am propagating about. Heck, why am I even clarifying this to you because surely you’ve not misunderstood it as you don’t seem that foolish. People enter Islam on account of various things that convince of its truthfulness. Just search youtube or google with appropriate keywords as “revert Muslim”, “convert Muslim”, etc.. Interestingly search items such “Hindu convert” will also yield many videos of Hindu converts to Islam although Islam is not mentioned in the search term! Check out their stories and you’ll have your answer. Some are convinced of its basic principle of monotheism which is belief in one supreme god who has no partners, some from the scientific miracles they discover, amongst who are scientists such as Keith Moore, and others like Yvonne Ridley, a staunch Islam hater, feminist, Caucasian and a celebrity British Reporter who tried to spy on the Taliban, abducted by them and later on released on a promise that she would read the Quran, was convinced by it. She now is an outspoken propagator of Islam through her intellectual arguments. Check her interviews and website out if you will. When I propagate, I personally like to prove the divine nature of the Quran through the challenge given by Allah himself in the Quran to disprove it, i.e., to produce a chapter (shortest being of 3 lines) like it. And for an English speaking person I gave the link of an…

      • (contd..) English website which explains this claim. Its as simple as that and your insincere efforts to confuse the readers will only appeal to insincere people. You’ll reply to save face but that won’t by you anything more than brownie points.

      • So in your opinion, the truth can be proved by how many people can be convinced or can be manipulated into getting convinced ?

  12. @hamza:
    There is no U turn there. You seem to be misinterpreting my words.
    Really? What did you mean, then, when you said:
    And don’t break your head on trying to figure out Allah’s actions it is not humanly possible as God’s attributes are beyond human ones.

    • @KB
      Dude! stop selectively quoting. My reply did say “The purpose of me telling you to refer the Codes was so that you could at least get an overview of how justice would be given because you asked some nonsensical questions about temperature being lower etc for lesser sinners.”
      Did you just ignore that part?
      Anyway, let me give you one example. You could know the present around you and some of the history of the world. And you do not know the future at all. No one does. Now, God is the Knower of all these things (past , present and future) and he can certainly see the future as well. Those kind of attributes do you think you can comprehend?
      The statement that you make that God is omniscient and therefore he should stop people like Hitler and Osama means that you applying human attributes to God there. God knows the future, but he chooses not to interfere in human’s free will. Else free will would become an oxymoron.
      Also see Sura 10.99.

      • @hamza:
        If Allah’s actions [such as slaughtering homosexuals and sinners here on earth instead of dealing with them in the afterlife which seems to be Allah’s modus operandi these days…he seems extremely shy of late while he was slaughtering folks left, right and center in the olden days] and attributes are beyond our comprehension then understanding the criminal justice system here on earth is not going to help us at all. Even the example you gave doesnt get you out of jail. Let us see why.
        I mentioned this before – the legal justice systems on earth is based on the belief that an offender could have done otherwise. It also serves as a means of detterence/repentance. That is not the case with Allah’s justice system. For instance, if it is already written in Lohe Mehfooz that Hitler will burn in hell for having slaughtered 6 million Jews, Hitler could NOT have abstained from his crimes in WW2. Free will and Lohe Mehfooz are mutually incompatible.

      • @KB
        You seem to have confused predestination with omniscience. Please read up on those 2 topics and that will clarify your doubts. Besides that, could you please tell me what are your beliefs? Or rather to put it more simply what is the purpose of life and what is the definition of God according to you? I ask this because we both seem to be talking on 2 different wavelengths and you already do know my beliefs by now. So could you please oblige? Thanks.

      • @hamza
        Sorry, for jumping in middle of your discussion with KB. But I am interested in your question.
        _______You seem to have confused predestination with omniscience.__________
        I think you did not get the point here. God is omniscience he knows what you are thinking, what you are planning. Thats the future he knows which is depend on your present deeds & thinking. God remains always in present. He has not written destiny of anybody billion of years before.
        ________rather to put it more simply what is the purpose of life___________
        Purpose of life to get bliss of God by realizing him. When we get some Godly attributes only then we can realize him like When we do deeds in selflessness manner in the interest of whole world as God creates the universe not for his interest to be worshiped but for welfare of souls.
        _________what is the definition of God according to you____________
        Vedic God is free from wish of worship. Vedic God is changeless. His attributes like merciful, omnipotent, creator, all-knowing etc. eternal & everlasting. Vedic God is not like Allah who got the attribute of creator just 4 billion years before. Vedic God is creator since eternity. Vedic God is merciful he punishes the soul only for their benefit/improvement. As school teacher punishes the students not for doing home work only for their betterment. But Allah seems cruel enough & there seems no benefit of souls when Allah send the souls in eternal hell for not worshiping him.

      • Sorry for butting in, but I needed a clarification regarding your beliefs. Just wanted to know if you have faith in the theory of enjoying/suffering the fruits of one’s labor (of a finite life) ad infinitum.

      • @truthseeker and SDC
        I would love to respond to your comments. But doing that right away, the conversation with me and KB will go off track. So I’d appreciate if you wait.

  13. @Faraz:
    I dont see any miracle in that chapter! Neither do you for you dont know Arabic. You dont even know whether Hamza Tzortzis is pulling a fast one on you or not!
    I am not the only one who finds this claim spurious…There are ex Muslims who pooh-pooh this argument!
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16329.0
    No, I dont care about brownie points. But I will catch someone who does a bait and switch. Bait with a linguistic Arabic Quran quote and then switch to the notion that “Islam is the fastest growing” even though the converts dont have a clue about Arabic!

    • That’s the best one can do in response (the person in the link you mentioned). I have seen this before, evaluated and discarded. You have either not even read the challenge or are so desperate to disprove it that you first scout the net to look for critics’ comments on the argument before even evaluating the argument. The person’s pathetic attempt at trying to invalidate the challenge conveniently discounts the fact that its not just about the rhetorical frequency that is in the entire Quran but its about unique literary form, unique linguistic genre among others.
      You know there are two kinds of people, one who, with an open mind looks for the truth by evaluating the evidences leading up to it and then forms a conclusion and the other who first forms a conclusion that suits his desires and then looks for information to support his conclusion whether genuine or not. First you criticize the objective test of divinity by saying non-Arabs don’t stand a chance at evaluating it at all, and when ways to evaluate it by someone who doesn’t know Arabic and also examples of non-Arabs accepting Islam are given (for various reasons INCLUDING the linguistic miracle because they cared to evaluate it) you hit back saying it’s a bait and switch. You would criticize either ways. So whats the point of your questioning because you fall into the latter category of people I mentioned.

      • But Faraz, on a lighter note, you are missing out on an important point: We criticize because our hearts have been sealed by your “benevolent” Allah, and we cannot see the “islamic” miracle.
        Getting into the serious mode, what you say actually leaves me confused. How are non-arabs converting to islam being bowled over by the supposed linguistic miracles of the quran?

      • @Faraz
        Will you suggest me how to check authenticity of Miracles? How to ensure reality of miracles? Sai Baba also did many miracles as I have seen in T.V. serial.

      • @All Follower of true religion Islam
        Brothers, It is time for all Muslims of the world to be united & have a fight against Kaffirs once again. As you all know in past also Islam faced the very bad time but every time Islam come out clean & safe. Once again it is need of hour for Muslims to destroy the people who speak against Islam. As you know our prime aim on this earth to worship Allah & If one dies while fighting for Islam gets heaven. If we win, we will enjoy here & afterlife. There is nothing for loosing for Islamic Jehadi.

      • Salim shekh@ u said non muslims are kafir and islam aims to establish itself in world because it was given by god and it aims to worship only god. On basis of ur statments, jst reply me one thing. Does islamic god (i specify him islamic god as per his behaviour in Islam & kuran) diffrentiate between allah and bhagwan? If your answer is no, then there is no point in crying and fighting to spread islam and allah….and if ur answer is yes, then islam is foolish religion and lacks worth worship and islamic god sucks!
        And for your info, islam nevr came out clean, as per muslims behaviour, whole world considers muslims as below human level!

  14. Hi All,
    I adolf hitler, the FIRST AND LAST PROPHET to come on earth declare that all previous prophets are actually the messengers of saitan and all their followers go to hell.
    To all such believers just one word
    FUCK0FF
    Here is a challenge to all non believers , come up with a word in english similar to above word.
    Let all non believers burn in hell for ever
    adolf hitler

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