Theism and Vedas

Theism-and-Vedas--
Theism
, in the broadest sense, is the belief that at least one deity exists.[1] In a more specific sense, theism refers to a doctrine concerning the nature of a monotheistic God and God’s relationship to the universe.[2][3] Theism, in this specific sense, conceives of God as personal, present and active in the governance and organization of the world and the universe. The use of the word theism as indicating a particular doctrine of monotheism arose in the wake of the scientific revolution of the seventeenth century to contrast with the then emerging deism that contended that God, though transcendent and supreme, did not intervene in the natural world and could be known rationally but not via revelation.

Source: Wikipedia

The very definition of the word has a lot of smearing of Abrahamic theology in it.  The metaphysics based on Vedas / Upanishads are beyond this or that theism (as they point to REALITY, not one or not many but REALITY). The Vedic discourse recognizes the REALITY both in its formless and manifest aspects. But given we are dealing with a lot of Abrahamic discourses that dumb down Vedic dharma, based on theisms, we are going to lower the bar (of the Vedic discourse) to enter into a discussion in this regard.

We are going to try to respond to a few of the clichéd items that are used to criticize our Dharma. Here we are distinguishing scriptural aspects and the individual practices or beliefs:

1)     Polytheism:  

While the modern day Hindu, may, based on Puranas look at the disintegrated aspects of REALITY, the truth is that there is an inherent realization that all these aspects roll into the REALITY. The most often used example to dig out polytheism in Hinduism is the story of 33 M Gods in Hinduism. From the scriptures, here is a quote that completely debases this myth.

Brihad Aranyaka Upanishad/ 3/9/ 1 – 9: This involves a conversation between Shakalya and Yajnavalka on the number of Gods.

 

1. Then Vidagdha Shakalya asked him: “How many Gods are there, Yajnavalkya?”

He replied according to the Nivid, quoting the number mentioned in the Nivid of the All-Gods: “Three hundred and three and three thousand and three.”

“Yes,” he said, “but how many Gods are there really, Yajnavalkya?”

“Thirty-three.”

“Yes,” he said, “but how many Gods are there really, Yajnavalkya?”

“Six.”

“Yes,” he said, “but how many Gods are there really, Yajnavalkya?”

“Three.”

“Yes,” he said, “but how many Gods are there really, Yajnavalkya?”

“Two.”

“Yes,” he said, “but how many Gods are there really, Yajnavalkya?”

“One and a half.”

“Yes,” he said, “but how many Gods are there really, Yajnavalkya?”

“One.”

“Yes,” he said, “but which are those three hundred and three and three thousand and three?”

 

2. Yajnavalkya replied: “These are but their powers; there are only thirty-three Gods.”

“Which are these thirty-three?”

“The eight Vasus, eleven Rudras, and twelve Adityas make thirty-one; thus with Indra and Prajapati there are thirty-three all told.”

 

3. “Which are the Vasus?”

“Fire, the earth, wind, space, the sun, the sky, the moon, and the stars–these are the Vasus. In them is stored all treasure; hence they are called Vasus.”

 

4. “Which are the Rudras?”

“The ten breaths that are in man, and the atman is the eleventh. When they leave the mortal body, they cause men to weep. Because they cause men to weep, they are Rudras.”

 

5. “Which are the Adityas?”

“The twelve months of the year, these are the Adityas. They move onward, carrying along all that is; hence they are called Adityas.”

 

6. “Who is Indra? Who is Prajapati?”

“The thunder is Indra, the Sacrifice is Prajapati.”

“What is thunder?”

“Lightning.”

“What is sacrifice?”

“The victim.”

 

7. “Which are the six?”

“Fire, the earth, the wind, space, the sun, and the sky–these are the six, for these six are all.”

 

8. “Which are the three Gods?”

“The three Gods are the three worlds, for in them all those Gods exist.”

“Which are the two Gods?”

“Food and Life Breath.”

Which is the one and a half?”

“The one who blows.”

 

9. “About this God they say: as the one who blows [the air] is one only, why speak of one and a half? Because in him all this has developed, hence it is called one and a half.”

“Which is the one God?”

“Life Breath; he is Brahman, which they call ‘that’ .”

 

Rig Veda / 8/58/2: Only One is the Fire, enkindled in numerous ways; only One is the Sun,  pervading this whole universe; only One is the Dawn, illuminating all things. The One has become the whole world.

Atharvana Veda 13/4/12: He is the One, the Onefold, the only One.

Mundaka Upanishad/3/1/8: Eye cannot see him, nor words reveal him; by the senses, austerity, or works he is not known.When the mind is cleansed by the grace of wisdom, he is seen by contemplation–the One without parts.

Brihad Aranyaka Upanishad/ 3/8/9: It is in truth that Imperishable, O Gargi, who is not seen but is the seer, who is not heard but is the hearer, who is not thought but is the thinker, who is not known but is the knower. There is no other seer but him, no other hearer but him, no other thinker but him, no other knower but him. And it is that Imperishable which is the warp and the woof of space.”

 

What we have shown by a few  instances from Vedic scriptures is that, if anything, they are monotheistic beyond comparison, as , Vedic scriptures recognize the unity of REALITY without any human intervention or intercession. Going by the playbook of West Asian theisms, the Vedic discourse is head and shoulders above the Abrahamic monotheism, for the reason mentioned above. In the context of Islam, where, oneness, among other things, points to not associating partners with God, there are tons of verses in Vedas (in addition to the above) that show what true oneness is. As mentioned above, Vedic scriptures do not attach a human or a quasi human aspect, while dealing with REALITY.

 

2)     Idol Worship / Cow Worship / Phallus Worship:

Why is cow such a revered animal in Hinduism? Parking aside the domestic uses of a cow, the mammal symbolizes Aditi of Vedas. The Mother cow that bestows all the good tidings to man and Aditi encompasses everything in her. She is the feminine principle of Prajapati. So this is the mapping that is in vogue today, where, cow is the symbol of Aditi of Vedas and Kamadenu of later day Puranas. The fact is that people do not worship cow (or idols for that matter) but the mammal is seen as a symbol of Aditi. Does anybody think that Hindus think that an idol or a mammal is God, per se? Had they thought so, the destruction of Somnath temple by the invading armies from the deserts would have meant the symbolic end of the religion.

 

Shiva Linga is a phallus? Too much of Wendy Doniger can have this effect. Shiva linga personifies the Skambha (cosmic pillar of Vedas – Atharvana Veda 10/7). Skambha , in Vedas, symbolizes the REALITY that holds this cosmos together. Again, it is basic common sense that in a temple, ageing leads to idols and Lingas undergoing wear and tear. So an old Linga is repaired and restored. If Hindus worship the object per se (the non-living Linga), why would they renovate  it. Can God be renovated?

 

3)     The Created and the Creation puzzle:

There is a theological difference between the Abrahamic idea of the creator that resides in a separate realm far away from the Universe, who, after having created the cosmos, shows his immanence by sending down streams of messengers, from his place up in the sky. There is a clear DMZ between the creator and the creation. But the Vedic metaphysics offers a different take, where, the REALITY, is both inside and outside the working of the cosmos and the DMZ dissolves. Here is an instance from the Upanishads.

 

Brihad Aranyaka Upanishad/3/7/3 – 22.

 

3. “He who dwells in the earth, yet is other than the earth, whom the earth does not know, whose body is the earth, who controls the earth from within–he is the atman within you, the Inner Controller, the immortal.

4. “He who dwells in the waters, yet is other than the waters, whom the waters do not know, whose body is the waters, who controls the waters from within–he is the atman within you, the Inner Controller, the immortal.

5. “He who dwells in the fire, yet is other than the fire, whom the fire does not know, whose body is the fire, who controls the fire from within–he is the atman within you, the Inner Controller, the immortal.

6. “He who dwells in space, yet is other than space, whom space does not know, whose body is space, who controls space from within–he is the atman within you, the Inner Controller, the immortal.

7. “He who dwells in the wind, yet is other than the wind, whom the wind does not know, whose body is the wind, who controls the wind from within–he is the atman within you, the Inner Controller, the immortal.

8. “He who dwells in the sky, yet is other than the sky, whom the sky does not know, whose body is the sky, who controls the sky from within– he is the atman within you, the Inner Controller, the immortal.

9. “He who dwells in the sun, yet is other than the sun, whom the sun does not know, whose body is the sun, who controls the sun from within–he is the atman within you, the Inner Controller, the immortal.

10. “He who dwells in the regions of space, yet is other than the regions of space, whom the regions of space do not know, whose body is the regions of space, who controls the regions of space from within–he is the atman within you, the Inner Controller, the immortal.

11. “He who dwells in the moon and the stars, yet is other than the moon and the stars, whom the moon and the stars do not know, whose body is the moon and stars, who controls the moon and the stars from within–he is the atman within you, the Inner Controller, the immortal.

12. “He who dwells in the atmosphere, yet is other than the atmosphere, whom the atmosphere does not know, whose body is the atmosphere, who controls the atmosphere from within–he is the atman within you, the Inner Controller, the immortal.

13. “He who dwells in the darkness, yet is other than the darkness, whom the darkness does not know, whose body is the darkness, who controls the darkness from within–he is the atman within you, the Inner Controller, the immortal.

14. “He who dwells in the light, yet is other than the light, whom the light does not know, whose body is the light, who controls the light from within–he is the atman within you, the Inner Controller, the immortal.

“So far with reference to the divinities. Now with reference to beings.

15. “He who dwells in all beings, yet is other than all beings, whom all beings do not know, whose body is all beings, who controls all beings from within–he is the atman within you, the Inner Controller, the immortal.

“So far with reference to beings. Now with reference to the body.

16. “He who dwells in the life breath, yet is other than the life breath, whom the life breath does not know, whose body is the life breath, who controls the life breath from within–he is the atman within you, the Inner Controller, the immortal.

18. “He who dwells in the eye, yet is other than the eye, whom the eye does not know, whose body is the eye, who controls the eye from within–he is the atman within you, the Inner Controller, the immortal.

19. “He who dwells in the ear, yet is other than the ear, whom the ear does not know, whose body is the ear, who controls the ear from within–he is the atman within you, the Inner Controller, the immortal.

20. “He who dwells in the mind, yet is other than the mind, whom the mind does not know, whose body is the mind, who controls the mind from within–he is the atman within you, the Inner Controller, the immortal.

21. “He who dwells in the skin, yet is other than the skin, whom the skin does not know, whose body is the skin, who controls the skin from within–he is the atman within you, the Inner Controller, the immortal.

22. “He who dwells in the understanding, yet is other than the understanding, whom the understanding does not know, whose body is the understanding, who controls the understanding from within–he is the atman within you, the Inner Controller, the immortal.

 

What the above verses show are that the creator is the life force of living beings and the dynamism of the cosmos. This also shows the dual aspect of REALITY being manifested, yet, unmanifested, known, yet unknown and  being inside yet being outside. And if someone has a query on whether Hindus worship creations, please refer item # 3.

 

These are merely addressing some of the most common criticisms heaped against Hinduism. And these clearly show how misplaced the Abrahamic criticism of Hinduism are and in fact, going by their own play book, specifically on monotheism, the Vedic discourse beats them hands down, for, Vedic metaphysics is not dependent on the need for believing in a human messenger to attain salvation.

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Comments

  1. shravak says

    ——–the destruction of Somnath temple by the invading armies from the deserts would have meant the symbolic end of the religion.——

    brilliant point, excellent post.

    • Rohit Mehra says

      yes…The Lingam was broken into four peices, One piece each was taken to mecca and medina, one was taken by the Mahmud of Ghaznavi and one was placed outside the gates of royal palace of Ghaznavi….This is Factual Recorded History

  2. Krishna says

    What is Shiva Linga?
    What is behind Lord Shiva being represented as a ‘Linga?’ The popular belief is that the Shiva Linga or Lingam represents the phallus, the emblem of the generative power in nature. According to Swami Sivananda, this is not only a serious mistake, but also a grave blunder.

    Shiva Linga: The Symbol for Shiva….
    In Sanskrit, Linga means a ‘mark’ or a symbol, which points to an inference. Thus the Shiva Linga is a symbol of Lord Shiva – a mark that reminds of the Omnipotent Lord, which is formless.
    Shiva Linga speaks to the devotee in the unmistakable language of silence, and it is only the outward symbol of the formless being, Lord Shiva, who is the undying soul seated in the chambers of your heart, who is your in-dweller, your innermost self or ‘Atman,’ and who is identical with the supreme ‘Brahman.’
    The Linga as a Symbol of Creation………..
    The ancient scripture Linga Purana says that the foremost Linga is devoid of smell, colour, taste, etc., and is spoken of as ‘Prakriti’ or Nature itself. In the post-Vedic period, the Linga became symbolical of the generative power of Lord Shiva.
    The Linga is like an egg, and represents the ‘Brahmanda’ or the cosmic egg. Linga signifies that the creation is effected by the union of ‘Prakriti’ and ‘Purusha,’ the male and the female powers of Nature. Linga also signifies ‘Satya,’ ‘Jnana’ and ‘Ananta’ – Truth, knowledge and Infinity.

    The 3 Parts of a Shiva Linga
    A Shiva Linga consists of three parts, the lowest of which is called the ‘Brahma-Pitha,’ the middle one, the ‘Vishnu-Pitha’ and the uppermost one, the ‘Shiva-Pitha.’

    The Holiest Shiva Lingas of India
    There are 12 ‘Jyotir-lingas’ and 5 ‘Pancha-bhuta Lingas’ in India. The dozen Jyotir-lingas are: Kedarnath, Kashi Vishwanath, Somnath, Baijnath, Rameswar, Ghrusneswar, Bhimshankar, Mahakal, Mallikarjun, Amaleshwar, Nageshwar and Tryambakeshwar. The 5 Pancha-bhuta Lingas are: Kalahastishwar, Jambukeshwar, Arunachaleshwar, Ekambareshwar of Kanjivaram and…

    • Truth Seeker says

      @Apollo/KB/IA/Other scholar
      Please clarify:-
      _________He replied according to the Nivid, quoting the number mentioned in the Nivid of the All-Gods: “Three hundred and three and three thousand and three.”_________
      This is part of article
      1. What is Nivid means
      2. ________three hundred and three and three thousand and three______
      Explain this 303 & 3003.

  3. Akhila Padhi says

    Great article….

    I am confused some where, and searching for the answer. Hope any one here can answer this.

    In Nashadiya sukta, it is said first arised a desire, let be the creation, and from Om, came sky, air, water, fire and earth. In Purusha Sukta, it is said, from the Adi-purusha came every thing. In Rig-veda, Mandal-1, Sukta-89, Richa-10, it is said that Aditi is the Dhulok. All devatas, human, born and to be born are her images.

    I read this three in toto, and reach at a conclusion that –
    1. The entire universe is the physical appearance of God being Aditi
    2. Devatas are different limbs of God
    3. As our body is not “me”, but the soul is, the Universe has also a soul, that is the Supreme Soul, God

    But this article shows some thing else. Can any one solve my query ?

    • KalBhairav says

      @Akhila:

      Allow me to offer some thoughts [that probably dont directly address your query but may help] on your question.

      The question of what is the material cause and what is the efficient cause of the world is an important question for any theistic system. SD is against creatio ex nihilo. So, the creation talked of in the Vedas/Upanishads are one creation of the infinite cycles of Srishti-Sththi-Pralaya (Creation-Preservation-Dissolution).

      The ontological entities recognized by Hinduism are Brahman, Prakriti and Jivas.

      Dvaita and Advaita address the question of cosmogony in different ways.

      Per Dvaita, the relationship between Brahman and Prakriti/Jivas is that of soul-body. Brahman is the soul of the Mahapurusha, while Prakriti/Jivas constitute its body. The Karma attached to the Prakriti/Jivas does not affect the Mahapurusha whose essence is Shuddha-Sattva which is beyond Prakriti. Dvaita maintains a qualitative difference between Prakriti/Jivas and Brahman. Prior to creation, Prakriti and Jivas are in their “subtle” form and that is why there is no parts/difference in Brahman [both body and soul].

      Per Advaita, Prakriti is considered to be Maya. Maya doesnt reside in Brahman. It is an indescribable power of Brahman but it doesnt affect Brahman. The Jivas along with Brahman constitute one homogeneous mass of pure consciousness. The Jivas dont realize that they ARE Brahman and hence their residual Karma reignites another cycle of creation.

      So, Maya/Prakriti via the power of Brahman constitute the material cause and Ishvara [which is the same as Brahman in Dvaita, which is Brahman's reflection on Maya in Advaita] is the efficient cause.

  4. Krishna says

    continued…………..
    .
    The Holiest Shiva Lingas of India
    There are 12 ‘Jyotir-lingas’ and 5 ‘Pancha-bhuta Lingas’ in India. The dozen Jyotir-lingas are: Kedarnath, Kashi Vishwanath, Somnath, Baijnath, Rameswar, Ghrusneswar, Bhimshankar, Mahakal, Mallikarjun, Amaleshwar, Nageshwar and Tryambakeshwar. The 5 Pancha-bhuta Lingas are: Kalahastishwar, Jambukeshwar, Arunachaleshwar, Ekambareshwar of Kanjivaram and Nataraja of Chidambaram. The temple of Lord Mahalinga at Tiruvidaimarudur known also as Madhyarjuna is regarded as the great Shiva temple of South India.

    The Quartz Shiva Linga
    The ‘Sphatika-linga’ is made up of quartz. It is prescribed for the deepest kind of worship of Lord Shiva. It has no color of its own, but takes on the color of the substance which comes in contact with it. It represents the ‘Nirguna Brahman’ or the attribute-less Supreme Self or the formless Shiva.

    What the Linga Means to Devotees
    There is a mysterious or indescribable power or ‘Shakti’ in the Linga, to induce concentration of the mind, and helps focus one’s attention. That is why the ancient sages and seers of India prescribed Linga to be installed in the temples of Lord Shiva.

    For a sincere devotee, the Linga is not merely a block of stone. It is all-radiant – talks to him, raises him above body-consciousness, and helps to communicate with the Lord. Lord Rama worshiped the Shiva Linga at Rameshwaram. Ravana, the learned scholar, worshiped the golden Linga for its mystical powers.

    Based on the teachings of Swami Sivananda

  5. Apolloreach says

    @ Akhila: On Nasadiya Sukta, please read the verse before the one that talks about love. That verse talks about TAPAS or the penance or ardor. This Sukta talks about God simply manifesting what was unmanifest before, BEING emerging out of Non Being and for this to happen, ardor (cosmic / divine, if you will, in this case) and desire / love provide the combined impetus. That is how Nasaiya Sukta drifts.

    Purusha Sukta explains and dives deeply into the cosmogony, where the Universe in the form of a MAN is born from a union of masculine and feminine principles of God. In verse 5 of Purusha Sukta, you will see that from this 1/4th Supreme Being, “Viraj” (the shine or shining one) emanates. This Viraj is the feminine principle.In the same verse, the union of Purusha and Viraj leads to the birth of “Viraj(A)” (Viraj’s offspring). This idea is also seen elsewhere in Vedas. Rig Veda/10/72/4 – Daksha is bordn from Aditi and Aditi is born of Daksha. Daksha is the Purusha of Purusha Sukta (RV/10/90) and Aditi is the Viraj of Purusha Sukta. Aditi / Ila / Usha / Saraswati etc are all the one and the same aspects of the feminine principle of Brahman. In the context of Purusha Sukta, this divine offspring (with a thousand faces and limbs) sacrifices the self to manifest this Universe. This is the principle of sacrifice in Vedas and this was the primordial sacrifice that was ever done.

    Rig Veda 1/89/10 merely repeats the idea of Aditi being the womb of the cosmost, the Mother from which everything that is manifested is symbolically the progeny.

    So to sum it up, the REALITY, in Vedas, has masculine / feminine aspects. The REALITY had this Universe manifested based on ardor and desire (to start with). The masculine and feminine principles of REALITY united to manifest this Universe. Purusha / Ardor / Daksha are masculine while Viraj/Aditi/Love are feminine and this manifested Universe is a Union of both.

  6. Akhila Padhi says

    My doubt still unanswered.. Am I wrong when I equated the entire universe being the physical appearance of God ? This is how I believe the word “omnipresent” best suits to God. I will again refer to the Purusha Sukta, I appreciate its view of taking masculine and feminine aspect together, but ultimately, who is the universe ?

    RV 1/89 contains name of different Devatas, and going in this same line described Aditi every thing. Purusha Sukta says the Adi-purusha’s body emerged as different objects of the Universe. So, Aditi and Adi Purusha are two aspects of the same Universe.

    My ultimate doubt is, which of the following statement is true ?

    1. God manifested himself as the Universe
    or
    2. God created the Universe.

    Now a days I am facing criticism on the theory of creation from the atheists, most of them are scientists, and many of them are engaged in discovering the theory of creation. According to their view, Universe is its own creation. And I too believe the same. And these richas from RV give strength to my belief.

    But your article forced me to think differently.

  7. Apolloreach says

    @ Akhila, I will respond to your query based on the knowledge that I have. I am combining an RV verse (quoted in the original post above) and a verse from iIsha Upanishad to submit that God breathes life into matter to manifest the same. To me creation / manifestation / chemical reaction etc are semantics. Vedas repeatedly invoke BEING and NON-BEING.

    Rig Veda / 8/58/2: Only One is the Fire, enkindled in numerous ways; only One is the Sun, pervading this whole universe; only One is the Dawn, illuminating all things. The One has become the whole world.

    Isha Upanishad 1/4: ONE unmoving that is swifter than Mind, That the Gods reach not, for It progresses ever in front. That, standing, passes beyond others as they run. In it Matarisvan bestows power.

    One Unmoving That: This points to the stability and eternal reality of Supreme Brahman. He is ONE, as, other than this ONE there is nothing else. This ONE is unmoving because movement reflects change in space and time. But the ONE is beyond space and time and relativity.
    Swifter Than Mind: This points to the individual consciousness. The metaphysics of Isha Upanishad declares the ONE without denying the many (that are bound by time and space) that belong to the ONE. This Upanishad recognizes every being as an independent field, with its own field of activity that is a part of the original divine Purusha.
    The ONE is swifter (relative to the time and space of an individual consciousness) when the individual consciousness seeks to realize the immutable Supreme Truth.
    That The Gods Reach Not: This points to the dynamic executive aspects of nature (Prakriti) that is time and space bound. This movement is indicative of everything in the cosmic manifestation moving towards a goal that is beyond itself. Gods here can be replaced by forces of nature.

    For It Progresses Ever In Front explains the truth that every labor to find the ONE, ends with the realization that the knowledge of Brahman is still farther. Nothing seen or felt in this Universe can really be the…

  8. Apolloreach says

    Nothing seen or felt in this Universe can really be the ONE, as, this entire manifestation is only a symbolic representation of the Immutable Truth.

    That, standing, passes beyond others as they run: The running of others is the dynamism of Prakriti based on time and space, an, aspect that Brahman already contains, as, everything is realized in Brahman, be it the past, present and future. Hence Brahman is stationary & stays ahead of the others as they run.

    In it Matarisvan bestows power: This whole cosmic manifestation is Brahman’s outreach in space and time. Brahman, as Matarisvan, assumes the life giving breath (prana) and breathes life into beings.

    There is an RV verse ( I do not recall the number / Sukta) that talks about Brahma, like a smith, creating a blast from which BEING emerged from Non-BEING. As mentioned by Kal Bhairav, to me, Brahman & Prakriti are eternal. Brahman bestows power upon Prakriti to manifest the Universe.

  9. Akhila Padhi says

    @Apolloreach – You quoted the same verse, that I was searching the whole day. In my last debate with a scientist of Pune, he posed some questions to me, I am posing them, may you be able to answer-

    1. If there is an object called God, who created the Universe, he most have been out side the Universe at some point of time. This proves that God component is not omnipresent.

    2. If there were any omniscient force who created the world, why did not he create every thing perfectly ? Why at all he created a human mind, which is neither perfect nor dumb ? Again why there are so many species of life ?

    3. If the soul gets a body, according to its nature, why many kinds of animals lost in the history ?

    My Answer – Universe is God, God is Universe. How can we say human mind is not perfectly made ? It is made in perfection, that is why we have so many emotions, and each brain feels the same in a particular situation. The soul gets a body, that best suits its character, if some species are lost in history, it means every soul have generated a character different then these kind of species.

    And I relied on these three verses that I quoted, and the theory of Karma.

    • KalBhairav says

      @Akhila:

      1. If there is an object called God, who created the Universe, he most have been out side the Universe at some point of time. This proves that God component is not omnipresent.

      I fail to see how if God was “outside” the universe at some point in time, God cannot be immanent in it now? I think there are verses in the Upanishads/Brahmasutras that talk of the person in the eye being Brahman and the Sun ALSO being Brahman.

      2. If there were any omniscient force who created the world, why did not he create every thing perfectly ? Why at all he created a human mind, which is neither perfect nor dumb ? Again why there are so many species of life ?

      Hmm…we actually need to experiences two universes simultaneously to make a value judgement that entities in one universe are more perfect or more dumb than the other. As regards the many species of life…it is unclear to me what this has to do with God’s omniscience.

      3. If the soul gets a body, according to its nature, why many kinds of animals lost in the history ?

      Again, it is unclear to me what the relationship is between soul getting a body according to its nature and many species (?) of animals being lost in history. Keep in mind that we have no reason to believe our universe is the only universe out there. There are possibly multiple universes out there. Also, we truly have no idea about the number of species of animals/living things within our earth, let alone our universe.

    • says

      Namaste Brother Akhila

      1. If there is an object called God, who created the Universe, he most have been out side the Universe at some point of time. This proves that God component is not omnipresent.

      This question can be answered by introspecting on : where is the dream world of the dreamer situated ? outside or inside?
      I hope you would agree that Consciousness of the dreamer pervades all that is created in the dream world..but the dream objects themselves cannot be equated to the Consciousness (Brahman) of the dreamer

      2. If there were any omniscient force who created the world, why did not he create every thing perfectly ? Why at all he created a human mind, which is neither perfect nor dumb ? Again why there are so many species of life ?

      No-thing is perfect , as things don’t exist “absolutely” . It’s in the relative realms that we see imperfections. The Desert does not get disillusioned by the mirage it’s the mind that sees the mirage and is dismayed.

      The so many species of life and all the material phenomenon that the *mind” sees in this universe are nothing but the “sacrifice” of Purusha..Through the inductive effect of It’s Infinite Aliveness …we see a thousand eyes and limbs (read species) become as if alive themselves

      3. If the soul gets a body, according to its nature, why many kinds of animals lost in the history ?

      from the relative perspective there is progression of time and evolution of souls. Why are you surprised if the “collective” of souls progresses to such an extent that a particular body form is no longer required by any of the souls in it’s eternal journey? ..that is exactly what happens when we see a particular species becoming extinct.

      kindly let me know the gaps in my understanding

      • Truth Seeker says

        @Indian Agnostic
        Brother where are u now a days. We hardly seen u in comments section. The scholar like you/ Vajra/Appolo/KB comments always beneficial & give us a lot of knowledge. I always remember you.

        • Indian Agnostic says

          Namaste Brother Truth Seeker

          It was excessive work that kept me a little busy off-late. Now i am again free to enjoy the company of fellow dharmikas like you. It’s a delight to co-learn the nuances of spirituality and pragmatic living at agniveer with friends like you . I missed it too :)

        • Indian Agnostic says

          Thank you @AR and once again congratulations for the brilliant article !
          anxiously waiting for the next scholarly piece.

  10. says

    @akhila

    read my post
    http://agniveer.com/5327/vedas-hatred-2/#comment-36564

    @kalabav
    fail to see how if God was “outside”

    u understand that all the creation in our u’r universe(from atom to universe) r time /space quarantine,that meanse ,we can studied them with physical tools(this is not my opevion physical science says like that),two basic drow back is there that god inside the universe
    1)if god is here,u must have prove where is him?
    beco’s physical science syas like that.
    2) if my hindu brother beliving the god is every where,that lead to one propbelm,he can’t did anything alone,is it?

    why islam says god outside the universe?

    1) consider x creating a ball,after he plaing ball, naturaly where is x?,tell me where is x?
    is inside the ball? or out side the ball?
    islam introduced god creator each to universe,that means he beyond the created universe.
    2) according to physics every matters in our universe(indise the time/space quantinium)
    are the object,all object made up of atom,atom is the combination of protons and electrons,someone required these combination these different charge particle,Islam say he created all things in paired. a paired thing require to someone to joint,but allha ‘ahad’.
    that means he not a components of charges,he single.

    i want to explanation all my Hindu brother about it

    • SDC says

      “why islam says god outside the universe?

      1) consider x creating a ball,after he plaing ball, naturaly where is x?,tell me where is x?
      is inside the ball? or out side the ball?”

      Will try to point out the fallacy in this argument.

      When “x” creates the ball, he does not create the ball out of himself, he creates it with matter that is extraneous (not a part of it). X was not inside the ball or vice versa to begin with.

      We say the individual consciousness (atman) originated from the universal consciousness (paramatman), and the finality of the individual soul/consciousness lies in its merger to the universal soul/consciousness also known as yoga (union) by way of knowledge (gyana), actions (karma), devotion (bhakti), or mind control (dhyana). There are other forms of yogas (unions) as well that help in achieving the ultimate goal of the individual soul.

  11. says

    why did not he create every thing perfectly ?
    god created all thing r perfectly,can u show any mistake happened to him?

    Why at all he created a human mind, which is neither perfect nor dumb ?
    god given to soul to human for taking decision(right or wrong),only human have soul,animal has no soul.
    all the matters in our universe r Muslim(that means they follow the god rule)
    sun was Muslim,rising from one side setting one side ,he follow the god rule that means,it is Muslim,like planet,all the things our universe from atom to universe,except one part of the human soul.

    one par of the human soul god fill the peace & good things.

    ex 1)from our daily like we have to chance to saw a cute baby(every human what ever their religion.we like that baby,its human nature,islam say its arise from that part of the soul)(god spread 1 part of the peace to all living thing universe,and he keep 99 his hand)that means how we love that baby,god love us(all his creator)99 times more than that.

    ex 2) consider we can saw from our daily life,some criminal beat the old and weak man,crualy,what a common people attitude towards that criminal?
    all r hate them,is it? its arise from that part of the soul.like moral,trustful,ideal,behavior has every human. consider we r plan to do any imoral things,automatically our body swet,our inner mind talk to us don’t do that,its aride from that soul.

    second part of the soul
    ist our controls soul,we chose,whether it goings to the way of true/false,prophet,scripture come here our earth to remake that second soul to ideal,moral,real,trustful way that like first part of the soul(its human duty to do in our life,its the way of salvation,god create us to like that)

  12. says

    Again why there are so many species of life ?

    god created all thing for human,u know from cyno bacteria to blue while as existing a cyclic relationship.all the living things existed here as relationship,they depend each other,god never and ever created anything useless

    • Truth Seeker says

      @Shabeer
      Why Allah give me birth in Kaffir’s Family & country? Why not Allah made me rich from the birth? What fault I had done Allah did not made me rich like Mukesh Ambani from the birth?
      have you any answer from Kuran?

      • True Indian says

        “Why Allah give me birth in Kaffir’s Family & country
        @”Truth Seeker: If Allah made you take birth in Kafir family, He also gave you wisdom to look around & accept the truth. He also gave you the responsibility to take truth to your family members. But you are running away from your duties..:)

        • Arsh says

          @True Indian: But then allah locked my heart because of which I can’t understand the truth. Moreover Allah also gave my mind and intellectual capacity which concludes for me that I shouldn’t believe on him as per Islam. What to do now?

  13. shravak says

    if somebody make money from an unethical ways and end up in spending in a good manner. Can an unethical action be made ethical if the ends are justified?

  14. Akhila Padhi says

    Shabeer Shabeer Shabeer… What will I say you ??

    That is why it is said, when two intelligent are talking, fools should not join the discussion.

    You did not read my comments, you did not understand them, and said in between, Oh, dear… Why are you busy in proving yourself a fool ?

    Read my first comment, read the reply firt.

    Then read my comment in full, for which you gave such a foolish statement. In that comment, I pointed the questions raised by a scientist, and my answers. KB said what he thinks the reason.

    And you fool, just came in the way of the great discussion.

    • KalBhairav says

      @Akhila:

      Folks like shabeer and other Momins who post here are performing one valuable service – that of establishing the intellectual bankruptcy of Islam. 1000 articles from Agniveer may not be enough to expose Islam more than these irrelevant comments from Momins here. Islam is illogical fear-based wishful thinking.

      The invading Arabs/Turks/Mughals have made a slave of the Indian Muslim mind. These folks think they are slaves of Allah but they are actually slave of the Arabs. They take Indian money and splurge it in Mecca improving the tourism and economy of Saudi Arabia. :-(

      Help INDIA improve Momins…not Saudi Arabia.

  15. Akhila Padhi says

    And shabeer, you have already proved, you have very less knowledge in English, a number of spelling mistakes, and grammar is just a wonder. I am afraid, I may forget my knowledge of English while reading yours. So better write in Hindi or Urdu. Its better for all.

  16. Apolloreach says

    I saw some queries sent to me on Nivid and the number of Gods / divinities that Yajnavalka mentions in the conversation with Shakalya. I thought I’d explain the same a bit here.

    Nivid is a recital that praises Vishwadevas. When Vedic sacrifices are performed, as per the Shakha tradition and the respective Brahmana recitals, Nivids are inserted to praise the likes of Vayu, Marut, Prithvi etc. Nivid is a less famous / used form of mantra rendering. Nivid is sourced from the Aiteraya Brahmana. Nivid style and content are from the Brahamana section of Rig Veda (as seen above). The magic number of 303 or 3003 are a reflection of the number of devatas that Nivid praises. This number is sourced from a couple of Rig Veda verses that talk about that many or similar number of divinities worshiping Agni. And as we know Agni is looked at by Vedas, as the earth based symbol of the Supreme Reality.

    • Truth Seeker says

      @Apolloreach
      Thank you brother, u have clarified the Nivid. I think, Nivid is clear now to all. But with humbly, I want to ask that u said this is magic number 303 & 3003 & sourced from a couple of Rig Veda verses. Can you give reference of mantra of Veda which talk about this number 303 or 3003? & what magic/significance you have researched in this number? Earlier, I got understand figure of 33 but Brihad Aranayak Upnishas this sentence confused me again ______ He replied according to the Nivid, quoting the number mentioned in the Nivid of the All-Gods: “Three hundred and three and three thousand and three.”_______

      • Truth Seeker says

        Upnishad are very knowledgeable text. As we can see this great knowledgeable article is based on study of Brihad Aranyaka Upnishad. I believe Upnishad are much batter then Puran & other scriptures. But we hardly find any focus in our society on teaching/story/conversation among Rishis mentioned in Upnishads. Why? Really very surprising fact.

        • Akhila Padhi says

          We cant say Purans are of no importance at all. But we dont want to understand the essence of Purans. Lets see a small example.

          The story of river Godavari says, once Godavari prayed Sun, sun had betrayed her, she then worshiped Shiva, and Shiva said, Godavari will be known for her sanctity, and who ever will dip into the river of Godavari, he will get bliss. Later Sun was forced by other Devatas to beg pardon from her.

          Moral of the story, an women is not wrong for the action of a man. Its he who is to be punished. But instead of understanding this fact, people are fighting for the story behind.

  17. Akhila Padhi says

    Very controversial puran is the Padma Puran. But if one reads the puran in detail, he will notice that, the names used in this Puran are not name of any character or human, but these are used by its meaning, hence symbolical. It is a poem, and to understand this poem, one needs to open up the heart, should not busy in finding scientific truths behind. This epic contain great morals.

    • Mohan says

      very true. Infact, one should view the internal meaning of krishna leelas as well in bhagavatam instead of saying that he had 16000 wives or he stole the clothes of gopikas and similar arguments. by viewing at the internal meaning, what we understand is the essence of vedas finally.

    • Truth Seeker says

      @KB
      NICE link, Quran’s Allah Miya also taking swear by Makkah & Other things to convince the people like ( Nay! I swear by this city;) 90:1

      • Juber says

        @Indian Agnostic
        ________kafir added to the list ..and it;s none other than Allah _________
        This is your true color to demean faith of others. Has this you learned from your religion?

        • Vik says

          @Juber

          Our faith tells us to tear falsehood, and accept the truth. Demeaning the faith of others is taught to us by your mentor Zakir Terrorist Naik. Now, we used his ammunition on him, and today, he is no where to be found ranting out glossary references like a bright green parrot. We do miss his comedy shows!!!

          As true Agniveers, we all condemn religions and people that curse non believers to hell just because they refused to believe in Allah and Mohammad. Our dharma is to love all humanity regardless he believes or disbelieves in God, and never to believe something worst for innocent non believers.

          Now, if you have a problem with that, you are more than welcome to discuss this with us on http://www.satyagni.com.

          • Juber says

            @Vik/Vajra
            ________Our faith tells us to tear_________
            Your cult Arya Samaj & your prophet Dayanand could not do any harm of Islam. So it is batter for you stop the thinking to tear Islam & close this website without wasting much time.
            _____nd today, he is no where to be found ranting out glossary______
            Dont guess too much, he is just suffering from some health problem. Very soon he will come in public & disclose the communal agenda of Agniveer. Get ready this will be last & as you know Islamization of India pre- destined as per will of Allah recorded in Hadiths.
            _______people that curse non believers to hell __________
            Certainally, there will be no place in heaven as per Quran, who does not believe in Allah & prophet & in last day. Batter do tauba immediately. Why your master scared & hiding my comments by giving negative marks.

          • Vik says

            @Juber

            Why dont you go read history of Dayanand, and see how many islamic scholars were unable to refute him. Go learn about Pandit Chamupati, and see how he gave fitting replies to your so called religion of peace defenders.

            Dont worry, your Zakir Naik cannot do much now, today even many muslims condemn him for misleading him. So consider the end of Zakir Naik and IRF now. Tell your Zakir Naik to refute the articles of this site about him. Naik only knows how to read index and glossaries.

            All rational and non believers of fanatic islam (zakirism) will earn bliss in this world, and it will be Zakir Naik and all those stupid arab authors of the Quran which will burn in eternal hell (if it exists…lol)

  18. Juber Ali says

    @Vik
    I know history very well
    It was your half minded prophet Dayanand who first time started campaign to demean Islam & damaged the reputation of Islam in world through his stupid book ” Light of Truth”. We have never condemned any religion. You people are kaffir. Now, If we are spreading Islam & Zakir Miya working on the project, why you people are defaming him by spreading mis-propaganda against him? All the great like Rahul Gandhi, Soniya Gandhi etc with Zakir Miya you can not do any thing bad of Islam & Zakir Bhai by writing article against him.

    • says

      ” All the great like Rahul Gandhi, Soniya Gandhi etc with Zakir Miya you can not do any thing bad of Islam & Zakir Bhai by writing article against him.”+Juber

      Okay.Thanks for exposing the two so-called great personalities.So,my advise to Hindus is that you should not vote for Rahul and Sonia.

  19. arya pathik says

    Juber Says :-

    “I know history very well
    It was your half minded prophet Dayanand who first time started campaign to demean Islam & damaged the reputation of Islam in world through his stupid book ” Light of Truth”. We have never condemned any religion. You people are kaffir. Now, If we are spreading Islam & Zakir Miya working on the project, why you people are defaming him by spreading mis-propaganda against him? All the great like Rahul Gandhi, Soniya Gandhi etc with Zakir Miya you can not do any thing bad of Islam & Zakir Bhai by writing article against him.”

    My Reply :-

    Mohd was nothing but “absent-minded” lunatic. As compared to Mahrishi Dayanand he was nothing but a sick man who has just raped kids [Aisha]. Next time before u utter any non-sense about swami dayanand saraswati keep in mind that we also know to reply in ur own fashion. Next time keep people out of the discussion and discuss on the issues.

    Juber, we are happy to be kaffir but tell me what are you ? ur ancestors were raped, killed, burned alive and than u were converted to Islam.

    today, Islam is known for creating terrorists and QURAN is considered as MANUAL TO TERRORISTS all over the world. So, relax and dont worry bout name of Islam since it has no GOOD NAME which can be harmed.

    Many muslims have issued Fatwas against ZAKIR and they call him KUTTA on you tube.

    ZAKIR miya has been abused by MUSLIMS by praising Yezid.

    do u agree with the views of Zakir on Yezid ?

    if yes, than u both will go to hell otherwise ur Zakir miya is bound to go to hell.

    save him from going to hell and ask him to disclose first that he belongs to which sect and why he is referring Quadiyani material in his speeches ?

    sZakir is a disgrace to ISLAM and SUNNIS.

  20. Ravinder Nath Watts says

    Agniveer is a Site for inculcating the Truth in the reader’s mind. Truth of the matter in Vedas when brought to light clears doubts. But some Moodha’s with malice in mind and having biased view start interfering and spoil the very purpose of this knowledgeable site. The Reader has to cearly remove the chaff from the husked rice and get the cleaned seed. Hence during the process of answering the name of any religion and its propagator be minimised or avoided,who enters into this Pavitra site. There is a HIndi Bhajan:
    “Hathi Chalat hai apni Gati mein kutar bhukat vaako Bhukwa de” Let these dogs bark.
    If we fight with a pig the filth is sure to spoil our clothes. On third of the population of the world follws two religions that does not make them great. Greatness is lying in the searchers of the Truth.
    ” HRANAYAMAYEN PATREN SATASYAPIHITAM MUKHAM
    TAT TWAM POOSHAN APAVRINU SATYA DHARMAYE DRISHTAYE ” Ishopnishad 15.

  21. Rahul Jaiswal says

    Shri Agniveer

    I want to ask you that where is the word Rahul written in Mundak Upanishad. And if possible then please explain that part. And also say the real meaning of Rahul.

    Thanking You.

  22. S N Moharana says

    I want to know the Vedic advices on the following –
    (i) After death of human, what rituals needed and why?
    (ii)Image worship of whom and why for the humans?
    (iii)Tirtha Yatra what for?

    You have clearly advised on casteism. So no further mention on it.
    Not only in Hinduism, but also in all major religions in the world, image worship is prevalent, may be worshiping to one or 33 millions. Vedic advices needed to get clarification again and again.

    • Krishnarao says

      Hi Mr. Moharana,

      You asked some great questions.

      1. After the Atman has left the body the best thing to do is recycle the body back into the environment. The best way to do that is turn the body to ashes and spread those ashes into the lake or sea. We do that so the nutrients get sent back to the land from which it came from. And it also destroys any diseases, viruses, and parasites that the body may have. If turning the body into ashes isn’t feasible, we can bury the body.

      continued

      • Krishnarao says

        2. We shouldn’t worship idols or images. This includes also bowing to rocks and stones or required directions. Because God does not have an image or shape and God is everywhere. That is why the best way to connect with the divine, highest state of consciousness, God, is through meditation. To add to it, we don’t believe in godman, half god half man, son of god, superman, spiderman, prophet, incarnation, x-men and other nonsense like that. All of it is made up by humans. We believe every human and connect directly with God. We promote the practice of Yoga as the path to God.

        continued

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