Who wrote the Vedas?

All prominent scholars and researchers agree on Vedas being the oldest texts known to humankind. Nonetheless Vedas remain the most meticulously preserved texts available today. The unique methods devised from very inception of Vedas have ensured that Vedas are available even today in same original form. One can refer to “Why Vedas cannot be changed” to have a glimpse of these methods. Many scholars have called this the greatest wonder of human civilization.

Someone like Abdullah Tariq, the mentor of Zakir Naik and celebrated Islamic scholar, also vociferously asserts that Vedas are the first divine texts. Even Zakir Naik does not refute it, even though he does not state it so clearly owing to his Wahabi foundation. However he does try to manipulate Vedic mantras to try to show Muhammad’s prediction in them. This very act of his proves that he regards Vedas as authoritative first divine texts.

This attempt of Zakir is not his original but directly copy-pasted – word to word – from works of the famous Qadiyani scholar Maulana Abdul Haque Vidyarthi. The whole Qadiyani movement is based on the assertion of Vedas being the first divine texts and Mirza Ghulam being the last Prophet. While we have refuted the wrong interpretations of Vedic mantras by likes of Zakir Naik and Maulana Vidyarthi, (refer http://agniveer.com/528/prophet-vedas/ ) one indeed must applaud their efforts to promote acceptability of Vedas as first divine texts among Muslims, with whatever little knowledge and huge constraints they had.

It has primarily been the atheist and communist circles that has refuted the idea of Vedas being divine, despite agreeing on Vedas being oldest. This is primarily driven from their founding assumption – that we all are chemical reactions and nothing more than that. The logical flaws and unexplained questions that arise from this assumption of these ‘atheist/communist chemical reactions’ is not the focus of this article.

What is interesting is that the baton of the atheists has now been taken by several Muslim apologetics who have come up with a series of articles refuting Vedas of divine status. They however forget in their enthusiasm that by doing this, they are digging their own graves. Because this would imply that claims of their own Islamic scholars are wrong and destroy the very foundation of Islam. We would request them to first issue fatwa against those Muslim scholars who use Vedas to prove Muhammad in them or admit them to be first holy texts. And next, they should demonstrate the same objectivity towards their own modern Quran.

What we would attempt in this article is to explain why Vedas cannot be considered as creation of Rishis as alleged first by atheists/ communists and now by neo-Muslim apologetics.

Now the question that would come next is – Who created or wrote the Vedas if not these Rishis? We believe this question to be on same pedestal as “Who created life? Who created the universe? Who is managing everything so immaculately? Who provided intelligence? Why humans are the only intelligent species? etc etc.”

These are serious questions for introspection and analysis. We have an opinion on these and quite a firm one. However, in spirit of Vedas, each of us has the liberty to explore and believe in whatever appears most reasonable to him or her after his or her most sincere understanding.

So even if someone refuses to agree to our viewpoints and arguments, that does not mean Vedas throw that person into some hellfire and would give us sweet grapes to eat in some Heaven. On contrary, as one proceeds ahead in pursuit of truth to best of his understanding, further path would be clearer and Ishwar would give him the best results he deserves.

This is the fundamental difference between Vedic ideology and other dogmatic ideologies. There is no blinded foundation, no compulsion – only commitment to a scientific and rational temper.

With this heavy introduction, let us start our analysis. We shall be providing various arguments and facts presented by those who claim that Vedas have been created by Rishis and then offer our explanations as well as counter-arguments.

The 4 Vedas Complete (Hindi)

The 4 Vedas Complete (Hindi)

Buy Now


So here we begin:

Non-Vedic Claim:
Vedas are not divine. Instead they are human creations like Ramayan, Mahabharat, Quran etc. The only difference is that Ramayan and Mahabharat were written by one author and Vedas, like Guru Granth Sahib, were written by several people over a period of time. So they are merely collection of works of a large number of people who were later called as Rishis. These Rishis were later claimed to be ‘seers’ (Drashta) to prove that Vedas are not human creation (Apaurusheya).  This is clear from various references in literature where Rishis have been called “Mantra Karta” or creator of the mantras.

For example:
Aitareya Brahman 6.1
Tandya Brahman 13.3.24
Tattiriya Aranyak 4.1.1
Katyayana Shraut Sutra 3.2.9
Grihya Sutra 2.1.13
Nirukta 3.11
Sarvanukramani Paribhasha Prakaran 2.4
Raghuvansh 5.4

Today, all mantras have a Rishi who is basically the person who wrote that mantra.

Thus believing Vedas to be not created by Rishis is merely a superstition.

 

 

Agniveer response:

The basic foundation of this claim of Rishis being authors of mantras is presence of word ‘Mantrakarta’ or its root in various forms. We shall analyze this later. However we shall begin with some logical as well as historical evidences that clearly imply that Rishis cannot be considered authors or creators of the Vedic mantras.

Let us start with scrutiny of the claim that “All mantras have a Rishi who is basically the person who wrote that mantra”.

(To understand this concept, please note that the original Veda Samhitas do not contain name of any Rishi etc. They simply comprise the mantras. However, traditionally each Vedic sukta (hymn) is associated with one or more Rishis who are supposed to be among the first persons to have introspected on those hymns. The book ‘Sarvaanukramanika’ or ‘Sarvanukramani’ by Katyayana is considered to be the prime basis of names of these Rishis (apart from a few other Anukramanis). Non-Vedics consider these Rishis to be authors instead of researchers of Vedic mantras.)

Counter-Argument 1: Several Rishis of same Sukta

a. There is no evidence in history of several people creating any piece of literature which is exactly same. Either the subject or language is bound to differ. However Vedas contain several Suktas (hymns) which are attributed to two or even hundred and thousand Rishis. No sane person can, thus, consider these Rishis to be authors of these mantras. For example refer the following from Sarvanukramanika (list of Vedic Rishis) which name more than one Rishis for Rigvedic mantras: 5.2, 7.101, 7.102, 8.29, 8.92, 8.94, 9.5, 5.27, 1.100, 8.67, 9.66, 9.16 (Aarshanukramani).

In fact Gayatri Mantra containing only 24 alphabets is supposed to have 100 Rishis! And Rigveda 8.34 has 1000 Rishis.

How 1000 people can together ‘create’ 3 small sentences is a mystery that only non-vedic pseudo-intellectuals can explain!

b. Some argue that Katyayana – the author of Sarvanukramanika – was unconfirmed about Rishis of some mantras because the historical tradition had broken by his times. Hence he attributed these mantras to more than one Rishi and used ‘Vaa’ or ‘Or’ to assert that one of these Rishis authored that particular mantra.

However this argument only shows escapism. If indeed Sarvanukramanika is unreliable, why to give references from this book in first place to justify that Vedas were authored by Rishis whose names are listed in book?

Let us give an additional example to counter this logic. The book Nirukta by Yaska described meanings and deeper insights of several mantras and is considered to be older than Sarvanukramanika. Acharya Shaunak who wrote Brihaddevata draws heavily from Nirukta. Now Brihaddevata was amply used by Katyayana to write his Sarvanukramanika.

Nirukta 4.6 states that Trit Rishi discovered meaning of Rigveda 1.175 Sukta. Brihaddevata 3.132 − 3.136 also states the same. However Katyayana lists several Rishis of the mantra and joins their names with ‘Vaa’ or ‘Or’. This means that use of multiple names of Rishis is not because of breakdown of historical tradition but deliberate to emphasize that several Rishis introspected on the mantra/ sukta.

Nirukta 1.4 clearly states that ‘Vaa’ can be used not only to list ‘exclusive alternatives’ but also ‘collection’. Same is also explained in Vaijayanti Kosh.

What more, ‘Vaa’ has been used in a different context by Katyayana himself in Sarvanukramanika. In Paribhasha Prakaran 12.2 he clearly writes that ‘Vaa’ implies that in addition of Rishi of previous verse, there is an additional Rishi for this new verse. To know more, refer Anukramani of Rigveda 3.23, 5.27, 8.2, 9.98. Interestingly, if we look into Aarshanukramani of Shaunak for Rigveda 9.98, he uses ‘Cha’ meaning ‘And’ for name of Rishi where Katyayana has used ‘Vaa’ in his Sarvanukramani.

Similarly if we see Sarvanukramanika 8.92 and Aarshanukramani 8.40, we see that wherever Katyayana has used ‘Vaa’, Shaunak has used ‘Cha’. Also check 1.105 of Sarvanukramanika.

Hence, THE SAME HYMN/ SUKTA OF VEDAS HAS MORE THAN ONE RISHIS in several cases implying that RISHIS CANNOT BE AUTHORS OF VEDAS.

c. Some argue even further that it may have happened that different verses(mantras) of same Sukta (Hymn) have been written by different Rishis and hence several Rishis have been mentioned for many Suktas. However this is only flimsy reasoning. There is no evidence to believe that a sage like Katyayana made such a blunder.

- Sarvanukramanika 9.66 states that ‘Pavasva’ sukta has 100 Vaikhanas Rishis. However the sukta has only 30 mantras. We have already given example of 1000 Rishis of 3 mantras.

- What more, wherever different Rishis have introspected on different mantras of same sukta, Katyayana has mentioned it clearly. For example, Sarvanukramanika 9.106 states that of ‘Indramachha’ sukta comprising 14 mantras, Chakshusha introspected on 3 mantras, Manava Chakshu on 3, Apsava Chakshu on 3 and Agni on 5 mantras.

- In Sarvanukramanika 5.24, it is mentioned that 4 Rishis saw one mantra each of a Sukta that comprises 4 mantras.

- Similarly check Sarvanukramanika 10.179 and 10.181.

Hence, there is no way one can conclude that multiple Rishis manufactured different mantras of Suktas of Vedas.

The only plausible explanation is that Rishis were geniuses who introspected on different mantras of Vedas that already existed.

Counter-Argument 2: Several Rishis of a single Mantra

There are several mantras in Vedas that appear several times in several places in different contexts. If Rishis were authors or creators of mantras of Vedas, then the name of same Rishi should have come in all places. However we see that different Rishis are linked with the same mantra in different places.

For example:
Rigveda 1.23.16-18 and Atharvaveda 1.4.1-3
Rigveda 10.9.1-7 and Atharvaveda 1.5.1-4/ 1.6.1-3
Rigveda 10.152.1 and Atharvaveda 1.20.4
Rigveda 10.152.2-5 and Atharvaveda 1.21.1-4
Rigveda 10.163.1,2,4 and Atharvaveda 2.33.1,2,5
Atharvaveda 4.15.13 and Atharvaveda 7.103.1
Rigveda 1.115.1 and Yajurveda 13.46
Rigveda 1.22.19 and Yajurveda 13.33
Rigveda 1.13.19 and Rigveda 5.5.8
Rigveda 1.23.21-23 and Yajurveda 10.9.7-9
Rigveda 4.483 and Yajurveda 17.91

All these pairs have different Rishis.

This is just a very small sampler. One can find hundreds of such examples in Vedas. Apart from accepting that Rishis no way relate to authorship of Mantras, there is no other means to explain these.

Hence, RISHIS ARE NOT AUTHORS OF MANTRAS but EXPERTS OF MANTRAS.

Counter-Argument 3: Existence of mantra before birth of Rishi

If we assume that Rishis created the mantras, then there is no way that the mantra could have existed before the Rishi was born. But such examples exist amply.

For illustration:
a. The ‘Kasya Noonam’ verse of Rigveda 1.24 is attributed to Rishi Shunahshep as per Sarvanukramanika. It states that the Rishi of this Sukta of 15 mantras is Shunahshep who was son of Ajeergat. If we review Aitareya Brahman 33.3,4, it is mentioned that Shunahshep offered his devotion to Ishwar through ‘Kasya Noonam’ mantra. If we review Nirukta Samuchchaya of Vararuchi, it is mentioned that Ajeergat worshipped through this mantra. Thus both father and son worshipped through this mantra. Then how come only son is called Rishi of the mantra? If son was the author of the mantra, then father could not have been known this mantra!

Also, the events of the stories of Aitareya Brahman and Nirukta Samuchchaya preclude any possibility of father learning this mantra from son.

Hence the mantra existed in father’s times but son is called the Rishi of the mantra. This implies that Rishi is not author of the mantra but expert of mantra.

b. Rigveda 3.22 is attributed to Vishwamitra as per Taittriya Samhita (5.2.3) and Kathaksamhita. However Sarvanukramani 3.22 and Aarshanukramani 3.4 state that the mantra existed even during times of Gaathi – the father of Vishwamitra.

So even in this case, both son and father are Rishis of the mantra implying that they were not authors but experts of the mantra.

c. Nabhanedishtha is the Rishi of Rigveda 10.61 and 10.62 as per Sarvanukramani.

The western school of thought states that ‘Yadu’ and Turvashu’ whose names come in Rigveda 10.62.10 were historical kings. These two names mostly come together in Rigveda. (We believe that these do not refer to any historical persons but certain concepts)
Now Mahabharat Adiparva 95 states that Yadu and Turvashu were born in 7th generation from Manu (Manu – Ila – Pururava – Ayu – Nahush – Yayaati – Yadu, Turvasu). Also Mahabharat Adiparva 75. 15-16 states that Nabhanedishtha was son of Manu and brother of Ila.

Thus if Vedas gave history and Nabhanedishtha wrote Rigveda 10.62.10, how could he use the names of people born in 6th generation from him? So either Vedas contain no history or Nabhanedishtha is not author of the mantras!

Many argue that Nabhanedishtha lived for long and wrote the mantra during his last days. However even this cannot be true because Aitareya Brahman 5.14 states that he received these mantras’ knowledge from his father when he returned from gurukul after education.

By the way, Nirukta 2.3 provides meanings of Yadu and Tuvanshu, which do not mean any historical person(s) but humans.

d. Vishwamitra is considered Rishi of Rigveda 3.33 which contains phrase “Vipaat Shutudri”. Now if we refer to Nirukta 2.24 and Brihaddevata 4.105-106, it states the story of Vishwamitra who was priest of king Sudaas and came near the union of two rivers Vipaat and Shutudri. However Mahabharat Aadiparva 177.4-6 and Nirukta 9.26 explain that these rivers were named Vipaat and Shutudri by Vasishtha after killing of his sons by king Saudaas, the son of king Sudaas.  Thus how could Vishwamitra use Vipaat and Shutudri in the mantra when these names were created by Vasishtha much later.

The fact is that the mantra existed even before Vishwamitra. And Vipaat and Shutudri in the mantra are not names of any rivers. However, later, two rivers were named so borrowing these words from the Vedic mantra. Since vedas are oldest texts, it is not surprising to find names of places and people derived from Vedas. This is akin to people naming their children and places as Ram, Sita, Krishna, Shivaji Park etc inspired by already existing words.

e. Aitareya Brahman 5.14, Tattriya Samhita 3.1.3 and Bhagvat 9.4.1-14 narrate a story that Nabhanedistha was instructed by his father Manu to propagate Rigveda 10.61-62. Thus even though Nabhanedishtha is Rishi of the mantra, he was certainly not its author and the mantra was known even to his father.

f. Vamadeva is the Rishi of Rigveda 4.19,22,23 as per Sarvanukramani. However Gopath Brahman Uttarardha 6.1 and Aitareya Brahman 6.18 state that Vishwamitra was the seer of the mantra and Vamadeva popularized the mantra. Thus both were experts of the mantras and not authors.

g. Kavash Elush is the Rishi of Rigveda 10.30-32 as per Sarvanukramani. However Kaushitaki Brahman states that Kavash ‘ALSO’ understood the mantra. Thus it implies that other Rishis have also understood the mantras and hence Rishi is not the author.

Counter-Argument 4: ‘Mantra Karta’ does not imply author of Mantra

Karta is obtained from Krit. Krit is derived from root Krinj in past tense as per Kvip Pratyaya (refer Ashtadhyayi 3.2.89)

So let us understand what Krinj means.

1. Rishi means ‘seer’ as per Nirukta 2.11. Again Nirukta 3.11 implies Rishi is Mantra Karta. Hence Karta implies ‘seer’ of mantra as per Nirukta of Yaska. In other words, Krinj root is used to mean ‘see’ also apart from ‘doer’.

The same meaning of Krinj root is vetted by Sayana in his commentary on Aitareya Brahman 6.1, Bhattabhaskar in his commentary of Taittriya Aranyak 4.1.1 and Karka in Katyayana Shrautsutra 3.2.9 explanation.

2. The story of Tandya Brahman 13.3.24 is explained by Manusmriti. Here Manu explains Mantra Karta to mean ‘teacher of mantra’. Thus ‘krinj’ root also implies ‘teaching’. Even Sayana considers Mantra Karta to mean Mantra-Seer in explanation of this verse from Tandya Brahman.

3. Patanjali Bhashya of Ashtadhyayi elaborates that Krinj also means ‘to establish’ or ‘to implement’. (refer 1.3.1)

4. Jaimini 4.2.6 implies Krinj to mean ‘acceptor’.

5. There is NOT EVEN ONE SINGLE EVIDENCE of ‘Mantra Karta’  or ‘Mantra Kaar’ or a related phrase being used to mean ‘Author of Mantra’ in any Vedic or post-Vedic literature.

6. Thus Sarvanukramani is clear that whosoever ‘saw’ or ‘realized’ meaning of the mantra is its Rishi. (Paribhasha 2.4)

Thus, ALL the references provided by non-Vedics to imply Rishi as Mantra-Karta actually mean Mantra-Seer.

Now some double counters.

We provide a list of references from ancient literature that refer Rishis as Mantra Drashta or Seer of Mantras:
Taittriya Samhita 1.5.4, 2.6.8, 5.2.1, Aitareya Brahman 3.19, Shatpath Brahman 9.2.2.38, 9.2.2.1, Kaushitaki Brahman 12.1, Tandya Brahman 4.7.3, Nirukta 2.11, 3.11
Sarvanukramani 2.1, 3.1, 3.36, 4.1, 6.1, 7.1, 7.102, 8.1, 8.10, 8.42, Brihaddevata 1.1, Arshanukramani 1.1, Anuvakanukramani 2, 39, 1.1

What is most startling is that the very texts from whom excerpts are provided by non-vedics to allege that Rishis were authors of the mantras are the very texts which clearly state that Rishis were the ‘seers’ or ‘experts’ of the mantras.

Doubt:

What about the names of historical people like Vishwamitra, Jamadagni, Bharadwaja etc that appear in Vedas as well as Rishis of Vedic mantras?

Resolution:

These words denote some special attributes and not any historical person. For example,
Shatpath Brahman states that Prana mean Vasishtha, Mind means Bharadwaja, Auditory sense implies Vishwamitra etc. Same is asserted in Aitareya Brahman 2.2.1. Kanva in Rigveda 8.2.16 refers to any person with sublime wisdom as per Nighantu (Vedic vocabulary).

Doubt:

Why do many mantras have Rishis of same name that appear in the mantras?

Resolution:

Let us understand how one gets a name. One gets a name either by birth or choice or popularity or by deeds. In fact legendary persons are known more by deeds or choice than birth name. Thus Subhash Chandra Bose got the name ‘Netaji’. Moolshankar is known as Swami Dayanand Saraswati. Mohandas is more popular has Mahatma Gandhi. Hardly anyone would know what are the real names of people known as Agniveer. Thus Vedic Rishis came to be known by the names exemplifying their researches. Hence we see that Narayana is Rishi of Purusha Sukta, Bhishaq (meaning doctor) is Rishi of Rigveda 10.97 focusing on medicines, Rigveda 10.101 has Rishi Budha Saumya (intellectual and sober person) because the sukta deals with related themes. There are countless such examples.

The point is the Vedic Rishis were not working with agenda of marketing their birth names. They were Yogis who were devoted to discovering the nectar of Vedas and rise beyond the cycles of death and birth. Thus name is just a matter of social convenience for them. So, no wonder, names of most Vedic rishis are related to subject of their specializations regardless of their birth name and even gender.

I conclude with the words of legendary Swami Dayanand Saraswati: “Whosoever Rishi first introspected on a mantra and propagated its meaning is remembered along with that mantra. Whosoever claims that Rishis created the mantras is a fraud. Rishis were the propagator of the meaning of the mantras.”

The creator of the mantras is the very same Purusha who created this universe, this life, this intelligence, this curiosity and the ability to seek answers to the curiosity of “Who wrote the Vedas?” Even if someone disagrees with this, there exists no other plausible explanation to attribute authorship of Vedas till date.

References: Works of Pt Yudhishthir Meemansak, Pt Dharmadeva Vidyamartanda, Pt Bhagvadutta, Acharya Vaidyanath Shastri, Pt Shivshankar Sharma and many other Vedic luminaries.

The 4 Vedas Complete (Hindi)

The 4 Vedas Complete (Hindi)

Buy Now

Print Friendly

Comments

  1. says

    namaskar Agniveer,

    This article is somewhat confusing, but I understand what you mean. In ancient time many things and thougts were orally transmitted to the next generation, because the art of writing was not yet invented. How does this apply to the Vedas? Were the Vedical mantras orally transmitted to the next generation during thousands of years? How old is written Sanskrit? I once read that there were more Vedas but they were lost. Can you tell me more about this?

    I was born in Surinam and later on in my life I converted to Hinduism. I never learned anything about Hindu scriptures in Surinam and now I want to know more, but it is so difficult and confusing. It is not clear where to start if you want to convert to hinduism or become more spiritual. PLease tell more about conversion to hinduism.

    I invented this word: Vedistani. See the definition in my long paper:

    Concept of the Vedical Union, part one

    Sacrificer dewanand
    Sacrifice code wfor2012
    Sacrifice date 22 may 2009

    Quotation:
    A Vedistani is an intelligent creature, with a body, either material or immaterial, who has the eternal knowledge of the Vedas, partially or totally, and who believes in it, and also apply it into his/her daily life. The Vedical knowledge must be embedded in the mind, spirit and soul of such a creature, which can be a human from planet earth. Race and gender are irrelevant for naming someone a Vedistani, because it is only a mental state of the mind and the conscious.

    Source deeplink:
    http://www.dewanand.com/wfor2012.htm

    Please tell me how you find this word, Vedistani. The word Hindu is wrong and we must develop something new.

    bye
    dewanand
    hindu writer and researcher
    Holland, delft city

    • says

      Namaste

      Yes, for a long time Vedas were preserved and transmitted orally because people had truly sharp memories. Refer first para of article and reference given to have a glimpse of how Vedas were preserved in oral transmission. Not only the mantras but even the way of pronunciation. emphasis was preserved.

      Vedas are only 4 and all of them are available. However there were many branches or Shakhas of Vedas which built upon the original Vedas and simplified it or added specific emphasis of certain subjects. Most of these branches are lost today due to long period of misrule. However the original Vedas were so meticulously preserved and so widely propagated that there was never a threat to their unavailability.

      Am not sure about written Sanskrit’s exact era. However the current script is relatively new. Brahmi was the earlier script. Pt Yudhishthir Meemansak in his ‘Sanskrit Bhasha ka Itihas’ and PT Bhagvudutt in ‘Bhasha ka Itihas’ have researched on this aspect. Due to destruction of a vast amount of literature in last 1000 years by invaders, getting all missing pieces of our history may be a daunting task.

      Talking of conversion, for the Yogis, there is no concept of any external conversion. Because conversion happens every moment within us. However for less trained ones, a small ritual helps act like a peg that reminds them of their duties. This is a simple procedure and can be done even online at zero cost. Arya Samaj and Hindu Sabha used this concept of Shuddhi dominantly in 20th century to help safeguard Dharma.

      Technically, the name you suggest is not wrong. However we believe that the focus today should be to nurture the core. Name is merely a social concept. The challenge in adopting a new name is that a lot of energy is used only for popularizing the name instead of the concept that it represents. Also various groups who use different names for largely same concept find it difficult to come together.

      So we tend to rise above nomenclatures and attempt to unite all likeminded together for a Vedic/ Dharmic/ Vedistani/ Hindu/ Hindutva/ Humanist or whatever revolution that is based on precepts of truth, compassion, courage and character.

      Once a minimal foundation is built, we then move ahead for next levels advancements and in process right-aligning other aspects like names, lifestyles etc.

      Dhanyavad

      • god_unssen_unheard_how_to_get_vedas says

        how did rishis get vedas when god cannot be heard and is unseen pls answer Mr Agniveer?

        • says

          In almost similar manner as you feel an inspiration to do something worthwhile in life though no one is dictating you what to do. In a manner that a small child has the urge to try to walk despite falling and hurting again and again. In a manner that Netaji had an urge to run from his house arrest and plan an attack on British. In a manner that great inventors and discoverers are inspired. The great social workers and reformers are inspired. In fact, each of us is inspired. Its the inner voice. That is how God communicates with all of us. Rishis had perfected this art of communication with Ishwar to an extent that they got the clear pure knowledge instead of hazy glimpse that we witness.

          • god_unseen_unheard_how_to_get_vedas says

            Reply to @Agniveer

            your thoughts seems like person may have Schizophrenia

            Schizophrenia (pronounced /ˌskɪtsɵˈfrɛniə/ or /ˌskɪtsɵˈfriːniə/) is a mental disorder characterized by a disintegration of thought processes and of emotional responsiveness.[1] It most commonly manifests as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking, and it is accompanied by significant social or occupational dysfunction. The onset of symptoms typically occurs in young adulthood, with a global lifetime prevalence of about 0.3–0.7%.[2] Diagnosis is based on observed behavior and the patient’s reported experiences.

            1. If Rishis can communicate, how about others then?
            2. What is the purpose of saying God is
            unheard and unseen. When Rishis are able to communicate.

          • says

            1. The definition of Schizophrenia is irrelevant here. It seems your study of medicines is minimal. You are terming all social workers, freedom fighters, noble people as Schizophrenic! And your definition itself refutes any possibilities of rishis being schizophrenic. However the way you bring this irrelevant point in discussion brings you in a high risk category – disintegration of though process, bizarre delusions, disorganized speech/ thinking, social dysfunction, young adulthood (I assume), observed behavior…

            2. Others can also communicate, if they have controlled their minds sufficiently. Even you can become Einstein if you apply your brain muscles appropriately.

            3. God is unheard and unseen means that you cannot see and hear him with these coarse sense organs. He is beyond that. You can however see and hear him through intellect.

          • Apolloreach says

            @ god_unseen_unheard_how_to_get_vedas: If you look at Rishis in the smae light as messengers that were sent down to Planet Earth, you are not going too far with what the Vedic body of knowledge says about realizing the ONE immutable truth. Given you have brought in Schizophrenia, I am sure you are aware of the following levels of conciousness…

            1) The Sensoriphysical- reflecting the realm of matter, sensation and perception.
            2) Phantasmic-Emotional- the emotional-sexual level (seat of libido and instincts)
            3) Representational mind- level of concepts and symbols, fantasy, ego-centric thinking.
            4) Rule/role mind- thinking in terms of concrete things and events.
            5) Formal-reflexive mind- the level of reflective, abstract thinking and introspection.
            6) Vision-logic- the level of synthesis and integration.
            The higher levels are
            7) Psychic
            8 ) Subtle (level of soul)
            9) Causal (level of spirit)
            10) Non-dual

            Please look up for Ken Wilber on the above points based on Piaget’s Cognitive Development.

            Now let us flip to the Upanishads. The Taittiriya Upanishad calls out five sheaths of existence/being-

            1) Anna-maya kosa (physical)
            2) Prana-maya kosa (vital),
            3) Mano-maya kosa (mental),
            4) Vijnana-maya kosa (intellectual)
            5) Ananda-maya kosa (bliss).

            The last state of BLISS can be attained only when all dualities are lost and an elevated state of conciousness is attained by SACRIFICING the idea of SELF or I. This is what the vedas say. And we will see it below…

            Rig Veda – Book 1 – Verse 170 – Hymns CLXX (1 – 5)

            In the Rig Veda there are 5 hymns constituting an important dialogue between Lord Indra and Sage Agastya that reflects the significance of traversing the evolutionary path of consciousness, that seems to serve as a crucial pre-requisite to understanding the true nature of the Supreme Absolute Reality (God).

            The verses exemplify how sage Agastya, by the sheer force of his thoughts is breaking through the barriers of his mind, reaching the realm of God without first being developed as a fully functional being in all his levels of consciousness. The eagerness to experience God gets the better of sage Agastya and his senses and he refuses to progressively surrender to the stepping stone (which in this case refers to Lord Indra) in his quest for God. At this point, sage Agastya gets pushed back by Indra who does not allow him to proceed to the realm of God.

            Indra says-that which is beyond time and space (God) cannot be known by that which is in time and space (Agastya and other mortals like us).

            Indra goes on to explain that it is the progressive transcendence (of ego-consciousness) through divine activities that will take a mortal towards the immortal truth. Sage Agastya thenceforth realizes his folly, surrenders his will to Indra and goes on to execute his mandated activities through Indra.

            1. Indra: It is not now, nor is It tomorrow; who knoweth that which is Supreme and Wonderful? It has motion and action in the consciousness of another, but when It is approached by the thought, It vanishes.

            2. Agastya: Why dost thou seek to smite us, O Indra? The Maruts are thy brothers. By them accomplish perfection; slay us not in our struggle.

            3. Indra: Why, O my brother Agastya, art thou my friend, yet settest thy thought beyond me? For well do I know how to us thou willest not to give thy mind.

            4. Indra: Let them make ready the altar, let them set Agni in blaze in front. It is there, the awakening of the consciousness to Immortality. Let us two extend for thee thy effective sacrifice.

            5. Agastya: O Lord of substance over all substances of being, thou art the master in force! O Lord of Love over the powers of love, thou art the strongest to hold in status! Do thou, O lndra, agree with the Maruts, then enjoy the offerings in the ordered method of the Truth.

            So, now do you understand the concept behind the Rishis sharing their experiences in the Vedas.

          • Sachin says

            @god_unssen_unheard_how_to_get_vedas : I fully agree with you! The explanation to prove Vedas being godly is ridiculous….and definitely not scientific at all, (while Vedas itself are claimed to orient you towards scientific knowledge!) and really whats the need to prove them as godly…definitely when someone wastes his lifetime in search of god, he has to explain ultimately to all that his efforts were useful! ;-) .
            Why cant we be happy to have just something (Vedas) by somehow/anyhow, with rich knowledge extract, why need to prove something to someone for sake of nothing….

        • Chhinasamsaya says

          Dear scientific oriented brother,,,,You said that “how did rishis get vedas when god cannot be heard and is unseen?”””
          First thing is that when you say god cannot be heard and seen is just like minimizing the omnipotency of the lord…bcoz if god cannot be heard,,, the conclusion drawn is that the lord is incapable of showing himself or being available in sound form ,,,,,Then how can such person be god.The Defination of god means everything concievable and inconcievable is in him,,,,,so if you try to mundanely concieve god through your imperfect senses how can it be seen.One can only Hear and see god when the god himself wants to reveals him or when a person in contact of god reveals god.So when you say say that Rishis and munis got vedas ,,,it is the revealation of god to their beloved sons….Just like a father reveals to his sincere sons about his life so the god does with the sons like us..But remember that just like there is a process for every scientific experimentation you cannot simply on basis of empirical and percievable data deny the existence of god..So also there is process to know god by which he will reveal himself to you otherwise what perception power do you have?You cannot even see what is on top of head without a mirror”””So just be open minded and try to understand the articles and answers given to you in TATTVA form or in reality by silently meditating upon it.Denying or arguing vigorously just on ignorance level or the level of agitation will not do”””Hope that you who are my dear brother understand this……

          Yours Suhrit(Ever well wisher)
          Chhinasamsaya

          • Ronit says

            Dear brother sachin ! You Mleccha………………….If you didnot believe in Vedas then go to hell of your Allah………..becoz i know you are a muslim using a name of Hindu……………. MLECCHA !

          • Ronit says

            @ SACHIN
            Teach Science to the islamic Mullah and Mr. bonehead Zakir Naik who say Quran, the word of God. Who believe in angel , heaven and hell being a Doctor.

        • sanket says

          GO TO GAYATRI PARIWAR TRUST ANYWHERE IN INDIA WHERE U CAN BUY 4 VEDAS ALL VOLUMES AT JUST 1200. IT IS ONE OF THE BEST TRANSLATIONS OF VEDAS ..trANSLATED BY SHRIRAM SHARMA ACHARYA

        • says

          vedas are same all over india..
          by same we and unchanged mean verses!
          the mantras are still unchanged and same throughout india.

          where people differ is in infering the translations of mantras!
          so sanskrit verses are still same and unchanged!

          you can find a authorised translation of vedic verses here…
          but it is only in hindi not in english.

          you can read here online for free!! all four vedas!!

          http://www.aryasamajjamnagar.org/

          or you can choose some excellent books to purchase from
          …. vedicbooks(dot)com

  2. Apolloreach says

    Agniveer,

    Good one. I think this needs to be combined with the eternal nature of the Vedic knowledge to get the point across. The Vedic seers,in their deepest of panances, while contemplating the Supreme God, simply “discovered” the body of knowledge that the Almighty had already created & left to be discovered. Even before Newton could come up with the 3 laws of motion, those laws did exist. It is just that Newton determined what was already there and hence it became Newton’s laws of motion.

    The Vedic order and the knowledge was always available but it was only the exalted souls like Vishwamitra, the family of Angiras and the family of Atris & Agastya that succeedded in gaining that knowledge. This is something that those with Abrahamic conditioning would never understand.

  3. Vik says

    Interesting to see the great exploration of Vedic mantras by the respected Rishis. No doubt, rishis contributed a sincere effort in showing their expertise in the mantras of Vedas.

    thank you for the impressive work!

  4. Rushmore says

    Despite all this,Muslims will claim that the Vedas are corrupted but their Quran is not.

    Everyone should read the book Unmasking Muhammad; The Malignant Narcissist and His Grand Delusion Allah by Sujit Das. Please google it and you can download the same.The corruption of the Quran is dealt in great detail I am posting an excerpt.


    Not only two different Sunni and Shia Qur’ans; today we can present many other ‘authentic’
    Qur’anic manuscripts (dating from first century of Hijra) which are different from existing
    standard forms. These Qur’ans were discovered in the Great Mosque of Sana’a (Yemen). Carbon
    dating system confirmed that these Qur’ans were not forged by religious rivalries. Moreover
    these were discovered by Muslims, not infidels. The Great Mosque of Sana’a is one of the oldest
    mosques in Islamic history. The date of building goes back to 6th year of Hijrah. In 1972, during
    the restoration of this Great Mosque, laborers working in a crown space between the structure’s
    inner and outer roofs, stumbled across a amazing grave site containing an unappealing mountain
    of old parchment and paper documents, damaged books and individual pages of Arabic text,
    fused together by rain and dampness for over a thousand year.
    By realizing the potential importance of the find, the President of ‘Yemeni Antiquities Authority’
    sought international assistance in examining and preserving the fragments, because no scholar in
    his country was capable of working on this rich find. In 1979, he managed to interest a visiting
    non-Muslim German scholar, who in turn persuaded the German government to organize and
    fund a restoration project.
    Soon after the project began, it became clear that the “paper grave” was a resting place for,
    among other things, tens of thousands of fragments from close to a thousand different codices of
    the Qur’an. Muslim authorities during early days cherished the belief that worn out and damaged
    copies of the Qur’an must be removed from circulation leaving only the unblemished editions of
    the scripture for use. Also such a safe place was required to protect the books from looting or
    destruction if invaders come and hence the idea of a grave in the Great Mosque in Sana’a, which
    was a place of learning and dissemination of the Qur’an and was in existence from the first
    century of the Hijrah.
    Restoration of the manuscript has been organized and supervised by Gerd R. Puin and H. C. Graf
    V. Bothmer. Carbon-14 tests date some of the parchments to 645-690 AD. Calligraphic dating
    has pointed to 710-715 AD. Some of the parchment pages seemed to date back to the seventh
    and eighth centuries, or Islam’s first two centuries, perhaps the oldest Qur’an in existence.
    Between 1983 and 1996, approximately 15,000 out of 40,000 pages were restored, specifically
    12,000 fragments on parchment and manuscripts dating back to the seventh and eighth centuries.
    The rare style of fine and artistic handwriting had fascinated both Puin and Bothmer but more
    surprise was waiting for them. When these ancient Qur’ans were compared with the present
    standard one, both of them were stunned. The ancient texts were found to be devastatingly and
    disturbingly at odds with the existing form. There are unconventional verse ordering, small but
    significant textual variations, different orthography (spelling) and different artistic
    embellishment (decoration).
    It scattered the orthodox Muslim belief that the Qur’an as it has reached us today is quite simply
    “the perfect, timeless, and unchanging words of God”. It means Qur’an has been distorted,
    perverted, revised, modified and corrected, and textual alterations had taken place over the years
    purely by Human hands. The sacred aura surrounding this holy scripture of Islam, which
    remained intact for over 14 centuries is gone with this astonishing discovery and the core belief
    of billion plus Muslims that the Qur’an is the eternal, unaltered word of God is now clearly
    visible as a great hoax, a totally downright falsehood. Not only this; the Qur’anic claim that
    ‘nobody can alter the words of God’ is also a fake. Muslims call the Qur’an ‘Mother of Books’
    and believe no other book or revelation can compare (Caner & Caner, 2002. p.84). However, it’s all gone now. The end result of whole Islamic struggle for fourteen centuries is a big zero.

    • Hamid Ali says

      It would have taken atleast a month for you and for your sujit das to make this story right….. u guys are Unbelievable.. how do you make up this kind of styory yaar… it’s a good talent what you have.. keep it up…

      • shravak says

        @Hamid Ali

        Ah no brother, when it comes to story making we are nothing in front of our Muslim brothers. They are best in business. We just show the absurdity in your fairytale(Quran). That’s all we do here.

        • Hamid Ali says

          @Shravak
          okay if that’s the case do you have guts to give some evidence on the topic above which Agniveer and people like you are spreading.. give me the evidence if you are so confident.. as i said you guys are really good to defame other religions without any proof… Shame on you…

          • shravak says

            @Hamid Ali

            Why should ‘we’ give evidence? You came here, you should show the fallacies in the articles to us. So, stop wasting ours and yours time. Post something concrete, otherwise stay outta this blog.

        • Ronit says

          Furthermore , those who condemn Vedas being in the religion of Vedas , he is regarded as DASYU, Either Mr. Bonehead Sachin be a Mleccha or a Dasyu ( worst than a Mleccha)………!!!

          Rigveda 1.33.5

          Those Dasyu who are themselves devoid of noble resolutions and clash with noble people, flee away due to your protection. O brave warrior, you have destroyed the Avrata (unscrupulous) from everywhere.

  5. Nikhil says

    Conclusion at the end of this article is very hard to accept. Claiming Vedas to be creation of ishwar/god (instead of Rishis) is like muslims claiming kuran being words of so called allah. Hence, as far as creation of vedas is concerned, Agniveer group appears as superstitious as muslims are regarding creation of kuran.

    Laws of motion as well as gravitation existed since the creation of this universe. But they are said to be discovered (documented & proved) by Newton, hence attributed to him, not God the so called creator of this universe. Similarly, even if we assume that Vedic mantras are universal truths, what is the harm/problem in accepting or considering that every Vedic mantra was discovered (concept realized first time as laws of gravitation and motion were first realized by Newton, Galileo, Copernicus, etc ) and documented or communicated (in the form of a mantra) to others either by one rishi or a group of rishis. This documentation could be oral or written. With this notion, we the followers of vedic dharm won’t give any opportunity to the critics of vedic dharma who could simply laugh at the argument that Vedas are creation of ishwar or god.

    There is a simple explanation to names so many rishis being associated with one mantra of vedas. The mantra (supposed to be the universal spiritual truth) might have been first introspected by one rishi. He communicated (in the form of a mantra) this to others who reviewed, analyzed and cross examined the concept and truth claimed in the mantra as per their own wisdom/experience/experimentation. They might have found the mantra incomplete or faulty, researched further to discover the correct mantra and come out with another version of mantra which must have been again reviewed by others. After a series of long revision by so many rishis over a period of time, they might have concluded and declared the mantra to be free of errors and then made it the part of final veda. Thus all those researchers who contributed from the first version to final version of the mantra might have been associated with the mantra which indeed appears very much honest and rational practice to be appreciated.

    Therefore, in stead of saying that Vedas are creations of ishwar or god or parmatma, we should say that these truths were realized, experimented, discovered and communicated in the forms of mantras by so many genius rishis (spiritual researchers of ancient time). If we want Vedas to be considered scientific, we must remain ready to accept criticism of Vedas or discovery of flaws in Vedic mantra. Einstein proved that Newton’s laws are not applicable in all situations and hence incomplete. He proved a more advanced theory that explained the universe more accurately than Newton’s laws of motion/gravitation did. But this does not disprove Newton, nor it discredits disrespects or defames Newtons. He is still regarded one of the great scientist ever born on this earth and great contributor to science and mathematics as he was considered before Einstein’s theory was proposed. In fact, criticism and revision is the basis of discovery of correct knowledge. Claiming something being beyond revision and criticism is ridiculous, superstitious and unacceptable to any rational person.

    Similarly, we the followers and proponents of vedic dharma must remain ready if someone comes with counter or more advanced spiritual or scientific facts/theories than those proposed in some vedic mantras. We must not be adamant and stubborn like muslims who are none but superstitious fools.

    Since, Vedic mantras are the outcome of rigorous research done by brilliant rishis of ancient times; they cannot be free from incompleteness/faults (yet to be discovered and proved). Moreover, like the limitations of Newton’s law, one can discover the limitations of Vedic theories. Same applies for the theories proposed in all the religions on this earth. But it is a proven fact that islam is a satanic cult under the disguise of a religion in which 99.99% things are nonsense, illogical, inhumane, anti-women, brutal, superstitious, biased, violent, barbaric, wild, cruel, hypocritical, deceptive, fraud, lies, rubbish, bullshit, etc.

    • KalBhairav says

      @Nikhil:

      I am personally agnostic on the origin of the Vedas. One can neither prove nor disprove the divine origins of the Vedas (or for that matter The Bible, The Quran, etc.) What one can and should do is to interpret the “divine” books in a way that increases their utility and leads to a better society. (It is indeed difficult to agree on what constitutes a “better” society, but I will leave that discussion for later.)

      I could be wrong but it does appear that no new scientific discovery could discredit the Vedas. They are highly philosophical and probably (I am not a Vedic expert) make little to no claims regarding the material world. Do you know of any specific verse that contradicts our day-to-day experience?

      • Nikhil says

        Mr Kal Bhairav,

        Thanks for your rationalist approach regarding Vedas. Since I have never read any of the Vedas, I can’t quote anything from Veda. But, I have very high respect for Vedas with some doubts that I have pointed out in my comment given below (in response to Agniveer’s response on my first comment on this post).

        I summarize below:

        (1) Why do Vedic people (Hindus) have failed badly in coping with islamic aggression and happily did slavery under brutal islamic terrorists for nearly one thousand years during which they suffered mass-murder, rape, plunder, torture, humiliation and conversion to islam at the hands of barbaric muslims?

        (2) Why do still Vedic followers (Hindus) involved in birth-based caste-system, caste-dispute/rivalry, and hence rampant corruption in India due to people supporting the corrupt, irresponsible, incompetent officer/politician and criminals of own caste and some other allied castes?

        (3) Why do 99.999% Vedic people still not able to understand the evils of islam and preparing all the grounds for doing slavery under islam, doing rampant appeasement of muslims, converting to islam, marrying their sisters/daughters to muslims and allowing them to convert despite knowing very well that no muslim ever converts to Vedic dharama? Fools Hindus consider this Hindu-muslim unity/solidarity/fraternity—shame to hindu’s foolishness in dealing with muslims. Sikhs are also as fools in this regard as Hindus are.

        (4)Why is Vedic people lacking badly in the field of science, technology and economics? They have borrowed all these knowledge from western Christian people. Due to this, followers of Vedic dharma are fast loosing confidence in their own culture and being westernized—They growing children are following the western culture of free-sex, nudity and alcohol. Young generation of India won’t listen to Vedic lectures–why? This is because they see that western people are far ahead than Vedic people in science, technology and economics. They feel that Vedic teaching can’t give them job, huge salary and pleasure of sex, material happiness, etc.

        (5) Despite the spiritual superiority of Vedas over biblical teachings, we can’t motivate our youths for Vedic culture due to lack of significant contributions and initiatives of Vedic people in the fields of science, technology, modern economics and employment generation.

        (6)Vedic teachings appear to have failed in stopping both (i) islamization and (ii) westernization of the people of Vedic origin (Hindus/Sikhs/Buddhists/Jain), etc.

        (7) What is the solution? Our young generations appear to fast convert and addicted to European/American culture of open sex, nudity and alcoholism–and finally under frustration, they may be misguided by the cunning muslim apologists like Zakir Naik, Abdul Faisal Rauf, etc to accept islam for (fake) spiritual peace. Many gullible Christians who are frustrated with martial happiness of western culture are easily being misguided today to convert to islam. Christianity appears to have failed to provide them the required spiritual peace. Christian leaders appear helpless, confused and directionless in stopping such conversion. Most of Christian leaders and popes are themselves confused about islam and unable to see its evil face. How can such confused and ignorant religious leaders guide to their society? Same applies to Hindu SwamiJi, Shankarcharya, Arya Samaj, RSS, VHP, etc.

        Until Vedic teachings help in solving the real world problems people (especially Hindus, Sikhs, Jain, Buddhists) have been facing, they are important only for so called spiritual
        happiness/peace–and hence appear less appealing.

        • KalBhairav says

          @Nikhil:

          (1)How to deal with Islam is not only Hinduism’s problem but every non-Muslim’s problem as well. There are a variety of responses that together can help modernize Islam – forcefully make a case for separation of mosque and state, help moderate Muslims (I personally think this term is an oxymoron, but I am using this and assigning it the usual meaning used in commentary these days) have a greater say in Islamic states, develop alternatives to Middle-east oil, convert them to less-militant ideologies (Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a noted exponent of this method), etc. Rational, religious, intellectual folks in all countries are grappling with this problem. It isnt clear to me why you expect the Vedas alone to have a solution for the Islamic problem.

          Also, what on earth makes you state that Hindus happily did slavery? This is quite a poor choice of words, in this context.

          (2)Who is a Hindu is a notoriously difficult question to answer. All the problems you mention are very important problems facing modern India. I feel the problems are due to complicated factors that cannot be assigned to the Hinduness of Indians.

          (3)You are exaggerating here, right? 99.999%? AFAIK, the nexus of minority-appeasing politicians and cunning Communists is indeed helping the cause of Islamic fundamentalism in India. But all is not lost. The best solution to this is education. As people get more educated they are able to access information without the pseudosecular filters of NDTV/Times Now/CNN-IBN and other elites in New Delhi. I say, more power and information to the people. This is already happening with fast internet growth in rural India.

          (4) and (5) That Western Christian people are flagbearers of science and technology (S&T) is not true. Historically, it is indeed true that the West emerged victorious in the S&T race. But a lot of it had to do with serendipity and pure luck. I suggest this book to get an understanding of the history behind the West’s lead. To suggest that Vedic culture is somehow anti-science is nonsense.

          (6)Au contraire, this is a great read about how Hinduism is silently winning the battle for the hearts and minds of folks world over.

          (7)See my responses (1), (3) and (6).

          • Nikhil says

            Mr Kal Bhairav,

            My concern and objections to your responses are as follows:

            (1) On your response to my points (4) & (5): I never said Vedic culture is anti-science. I simply said that people of Vedic origin must introspect and review why they have negligible contributions to Sc, Tech & economic theories, and why are they lagging much in these areas compared to westerners.

            (2) On your response to my points (3): I don’t think that I am exaggerating. Out of hundred crore of non-muslims in India, if only less than ten thousand people are considering islam as threat to non-muslims, and rest non-muslims of India are parroting the poetry that ——–”all religions are same, islam is a religion of peace, terrorism should not be linked to any religion, most muslism are noble & patriot people, muslims should not be blamed for act of few terrorists, muslims can be made PM and even the chief of Army/Navy/Air-force/BSF of India, islamic banking should be encouraged, muslims should be given reservation in education, jobs, parliament/assembly/army, etc”——–, then definitely 99.999% people of Vedic origin (Hindus/Sikhs/Buddhist/Jain) still ignorant about the evils of islam and preparing grounds for doing slavery under islam.

            (3) On your response to my points (1): When we Hindus/Sikhs/Buddhists etc are the prime victims of islam in India at present and in future, and likely to be politically defeated by islamic conspirators, then why should we be dependent on some Geert Wilders of Netherlands, Ali Sina of faithfreedom.com, Robert Spencer of citizenwarrior.com/Jihadwatch.com etc to fight islam, defeat it and make us the beneficiary. Hence, it is our own duty to fight firmly and decisively against islam in order to safeguard ourselves and our future generations from islamic persecution/subjugation/torture/humiliation/slavery and conversion to islam. However, we may take help of others (non-Indians) in our fight (not necessarily involving violence)..

            Further you added in your response to my point (1)———”what on earth makes you state that Hindus happily did slavery? This is quite a poor choice of words”————

            3.(a) Regarding how I conclude that Hindus did slavery happily under mughals/Delhi sultenat, please note that most Hindu Kings and powerful/rich Hindu landlords/priests/scholars always showed submissive attitude that time rather than seeking opportunity to overthrow the muslim rule. Except Sikhs & Marathas, no Hindu King/landlord/intellectual class even tried to eliminate the muslim rule, with exception of brief resistance by Maharana Pratap.

            3.(b) Even in 1857, Hindu rebel Kings declared a muslim (Bahadurshah Jafar-II) as King of Delhi and leader of the rebel forces against the British–This clearly shows that Hindus were doing shameless slavery under muslim rulers—they didn’t like British rule, but had no objection muslims kings/nababs ruling over Hindus. If Indians could drive away the British that time, this would have been most unfortunate for India as it was badly disintegrated that time and ruled by thousands of chaotic rulers (kings & Nababs). The Britsh must be thanked for integrating India and introducing modern administration, education system, democracy, railways, mining, etc.

            3.(c) Further in 1947, how could GandhiJi offer Jinna the option to become the first PM of free India if muslims leave the demand for Pakistan? Hindus are fortunate that Jinna rejected this, otherwise Hindus/Sikhs would have been ruled by muslims again—-means muslims ruled them before the British, and would rule them even after the British. GandhiJi was a 100% pro-muslim person–who along with Nehru, etc is responsible for not sending all the muslims to Pakistan even when the country was divided on the basis of religion and Jinna/Ambedkar/Mount Beton were all agree for exchange of citizens across the border–Ambedkar also came with a five-year formula for this. But, GandhiJi dared to make this anti-Hindu offer to Jinna to become India’s first PM because he read hindu-mindset very well that Hindu won’t mind much on being ruled (and even humiliated) by muslims.

            3.(d) Even today, most Hindu authors, historians, film-makers keep praising and glorifying (in history-books, stories, poems, films, dramas, etc) the mass-murderer Akbar, Jahangir, and other mughals, Majority of Hindu intellectuals never show any regret that our ancestors were defeated, tortured, raped, looted, humiliated, subjugated, and converted by mughals and other muslim rulers. Why the film Jodha-Akbar did become super-hit? Hindu producer-director-actors-actresses were involved in making of this film and millions of Hindu watched and praised this film in stead of feeling shame on Jodha-Akbar episode and taking lesson from this to strengthen/educate themselves so as never to surrender before barbaric muslims.

            3.(e) Also, pls note that Hindus just complain to muslims and Govt of India as why Kashmiri Hindus were humiliated, looted, killed and finally driven away from Kashmir in 1991. There is no anger among majority (99.9%) of Hindus on this clear persecution of Hindus by muslims even in today’s time. Had there been sufficient anger in Hindus on this matter, then rights and honors of Kashmiri Hindus must have restored and responsible muslims punished severely long back so that they won’t dare to touch Hindus in future.

            3.(f) I think caste system of Hindus is doing much damage to Hindus. Due to caste bias, majority of non-brahmin hindus are not much worried to the plights of Kashmiri Hindus who are mostly Brahmins. Some Hindus even openly say that why should they worry about them (Brahmins) who keep exploiting and harassing lower caste Hindus, directly or indirectly. But, most Hindus are not ready to eliminate caste system by inter-caste marriage. No individual/group is trying to motivate Hindus for inter-caste marriage with other-caste Hindus having similar social/economic/educational status.

          • KalBhairav says

            @Nikhil:

            Yes caste system is doing damage. Yes minority appeasement is a problem. Yes Muslim invaders did unspeakable crimes on Hindus. Yes history books are being authored by communists.

            I said earlier that the non-militant and long-lasting solution to these problems is better-informed and educated masses. It is unclear what your suggestion is – a militant solution where Hindus round up non-Hindus and perform pogroms? I think the idea of India will be lost then.

            We seem to be talking past each other. We all know what the problems in India are. What are *your* ideas or solutions?

          • Nikhil says

            Mr Kal Bhairav,

            I don’t suggest inhumane killing of innocents on the basis of religion, race, caste, etc. Pls read my post below in response to Agniveer admin’s response to my comment in which I explain briefly how caste system is eating up our system like termites eat up wood, cloth, paper, etc.

            Solution to all the problems of India starts with elimination of caste system from Hindu society by starting a campaign of motivating Hindus to go for inter-caste matrimonial relations with families of similar financial as well as educational status. They are free to choose the bride or groom of their choice with added flexibility that in stead of searching a bride/groom within own caste, they should search within entire Hindu community.

            Once Hindu society and hence Sikh etc also become caste-less, people can be united on genuine issues of common interests. Hindu votes won’t be divided on caste-basis and good politicians can win by Hindu votes only without need to appease the minority. A much less corrupt political system would emerge and evolve due to caste-less Hindu society. Casteless Hindus will be more logical and cannot be easily misguided by poisonous-minded communists/secularists.

            In a less corrupt system, people would have access to unbiased descriptions and analysis of historical facts in the text books and standard history books. At present, such unbiased descriptions are available only on some Internet sites like Agnivver.com to which majority of people don’t have access.

            Elimination of caste system and educating people about the true face of islam can solve most problems of India. However, all the efforts might go in vain in a country where people have been doing throat-cutting rivalry on caste basis. If one caste is harassed by muslims, such as Kashmiri brahmins, then rest other caste don’t feel much pain due to caste prejudice. People join hands with traitor muslims in order to dominate rival castes ignoring its bad consequences in the long run.

            Hence, elimination of caste system should be our first priority. This won’t take more than 15-20 yrs to significantly weaken the caste system if we make a systematic, planned and determined campaign of motivating people for inter-caste marriages. People should be educated that caste system is the root cause of the corruption of entire political system of India due to which people of all castes, religion and language have been suffering. Brides and grooms may be given cash awards of 5 to 10 lakh rupees (in several installments spanning over 4 to 5 yrs to avoid fraud and fake marriages) for doing inter-caste marriages. Funds for such awards may be generated by inviting donations from people, industrialist, NRIs, etc. Central/state Govt may be pressurized to allocate fund for such cash awards.

            Private sectors and Govt sectors both should frame rules to give one promotion to their employees who either themselves do inter-caste-marriage or do inter-caste marriage of their children. Such provisions can be made with careful thoughts and considering all pros and cons.

            SwamiJi, Shankaracharya, Arya Smaja, RSS, VHP, NGOs. etc should appeal people to go for inter-caste marriages.

            However, inter-caste marriage must not be mistaken as inter-religion marriage. Your social culture, religious belief , rituals, customs etc remains almost same even after inter-caste marriage–but, they would all change completely on inter-religion marriage and, in most cases, either the bride or the groom has to convert to the religion of his/her spouse. Hence, while I strongly support inter-caste marriage, I also strongly oppose inter-religion marraige except under exceptional situations.

          • KalBhairav says

            @Nikhil:

            I agree that there ought to be more inter-caste marriages. Along the same lines I would also encourage removal of barriers that prevent people from one state moving to another. The main barrier along this line is school education. I remember during my 8-10th standard I had to move from my home state to a different state where the language was different. That transition was made easy because the native language of that state was not compulsory as a 2nd/3rd language in the Board Exam. I believe some states have made this mandatory now – that is the language of the state WILL be one of the languages in the board exam. There ought to be more leniency on this front.

            Finally, we ought to be able to remove the column caste from all application forms. The only question on all forms needs to be citizenship. No need to ask about language/caste/religion. That would be an India of my dreams.

        • says

          Pls check my reply. In summary, Hindus claim Vedas to be authority but do not follow it actually. Caste-system, gender-bias, superstitions, fatalistic attitude, etc etc are anti-vedic habits ruining our foundation. So merely being born Hindu does not make one Vedic.

          We rejected Vedas in practice and hence suffered misfortune. Hindu ritualistic teachings IS NOT Vedic teachings, We emphasize only on rituals which are time-bound social practices and not Dharma at all.

          So we have got what we rightly deserved as per law of karma.

          Solution is to revive Vedas in practice – reject caste system, provide gender equality, stop being fatalistic, stop wasting time predicting future through palm and stars, encourage, invite and support our brothers and sisters from other faith who are keen to formally embrace Vedic dharma instead of rejecting them as outcastes, inculcate social discipline, and unite as one entity. These are the core Vedic teachings and a society that does not practice these is actually hypocritical or fraud and hence deserves what we are actually facing.

    • says

      Brother, You are free to reject or accept the conclusion.

      1. However there is a sea of difference between Quran being called divine and Vedas being called divine.

      This is because if Quran be called divine, then what stops anyone else to consider any other text as divine.

      But Vedas are oldest and first text of humankind. So this issue does not arise.

      2. We are not being superstitious but rational. If we go purely by inert laws of nature, creation of life, creation of intelligent life and creation of only humans as intelligent life, existence of no other intermediate species with intelligence are all events that have probability of virtually zero. Thus way we see world today as only case of such a symbiotic organized system of highest order of complexity implies that at least no one can conclusively state that it is just a random chance. And if intelligence can come up, life can come up, this lively world can be sustainably managed, what is so special about intelligent life having also got intelligence aka knowledge of Vedas to start their intelligent living.

      3. The caveman suddenly getting light of inspiration to do mining, develop a complex language (Vedas – the oldest text have most complex language compared to language of evolved homo sapiens for last 5000 years) etc are also theories that are equally if not more superstitious than Vedas being divine inspiration of wisdom.

      4. In other words, at the current stage, when humankind knows absolutely nothing about origin of life, intelligence and related topics, accepting Vedas as divine, or considering evolution as source of intelligence or any other theory would all be equally superstitious if the divine Vedas theory is superstitious.

      5. The theory of why so many Rishis are there for same mantra given by you also appears equally superstitious. Because historically there is no evidence of any period when any mention of creation of Vedic mantras is documented. Also some mantras have 1000s of Rishis. There is absolutely no evidence of these Rishis being creators or even editors of the mantras. It is correct that there is evidence of these being analyzers of mantras.

      6. We never said that we are unwilling to accept criticism of Vedas. We have only said that from whatever is known today, Vedas seem to be perfect books and divinely inspired. We may be wrong in our conclusion and would be willing to change our stand if we get evidence that refutes our stand.

      7. So far we found nothing in Vedas that goes against established science. Definitely there are lots of mantras in Vedas whose meanings are difficult to understand for us today. But that only means that we have more homework to do to understand them.

      8. Most of the criticism of Vedas come from either people who have not read Vedas and consider that if Quran and Bible are defective, so must be Vedas. Or those who tried to interpret Vedas to further their own theories.

      9. Vedas being divine is the established theory provided in all ancient texts of our culture. For those who believe that there is a order and plan in whatever is happening and the world is not merely a probability of near-zero, this theory seems to explain the observations more rationally than other existing theories.

      For those who believe in life being a chemical reaction coming from some big bang and then a blinded evolution, actually this theory or that theory nothing would make difference. Because chemical reactions are temporal and inert to good, bad, right, wrong etc.

      There may be alternate views but existence of those also are in lines with Vedic teachings.

      10. Vedas themselves state that one should introspect and analyze to discover truth and not accept anything including Vedas blindly. It states that the formula to achieve truth is to continuously keep rejecting whatever comes out as truth to best of abilities.

      Thus even if you doubt Vedas, after having analyzed it, it is still a Vedic approach and there is no ‘defiance’ of Vedas like it happens in case of Quran or Bible.

      None of us know the ultimate truth. And so far this stage exists, we will have differing theories and different interpretations of the limited number of observations. Wise men should definitely seek mutual discussions and introspection to evolve to better understanding of truth.

      But yes, something that is completely irrational, intolerant and brutal should be eliminated as first essential step.

      Dhanyavad
      Admin

      • Nikhil says

        Mr Agniveer Sir,

        Although I can’t consider Vedas being the creation of ishwar/god, I highly appreciate your rational reply on rest other points. If you and others, who believe in Vedas, are ready to welcome logical criticism and modify your stand if proven wrong, then this is the most scientific and logical way of evolution of some good things. I have not ever read any Veda, but as per Vedic expert like you (in point number 10 of your reply), Veda themselves encourage the reader not to accept anything (even the Vedas) blindly, rather doubt, introspect, analyze, and discover/decide rationally the right and wrong. This makes Vedas to appear very rational and scientific at first glance.

        Leaving apart the differing opinions on creation of Vedas, let us spread its scientific and logical concepts through all the living human beings on this globe, if it can enlighten the minds/hearts of people and show them right path to happily complete their journey of life.

        But, one question always haunts me. Can Vedic knowledge help us in making this world free from islamic terror, barbarism, wildness, brutality, lies, deception, etc. Islam is becoming more and more powerful and dangerous today not because of muslims, rather because of the non-muslims who support its evil practices either due to (1) ignorance who don’t understand islamic evil (2) fear of muslim fanatics/terrorists and secular hypocrites (3) their deliberate desire to derive temporary benefits by supporting islam. Unfortunately, 99.999% non-muslims fall in one of the above three categories, and due to support of these types of non-muslims, islam is getting stronger and stronger everyday, its sphere of dominance/deception expanding everyday.

        If Vedas contain so much brilliant concepts, then why are they totally ineffective in countering the evils of islam? Why are the followers of Vedic dharma (Hindus) served almost 1000 yrs under slavery of muslims? Why are they still divided and continue to fight among themselves in the name of caste/language/region, but always willing to act as subservient to muslims? Why aren’t they vedic experts able to eliminate their ignorance and dispute in the light of Vedas? Seeing the present political and social situations of India, it appears that Hindus are preparing ground for another very long session (of several hundred years) of slavery under muslims as they did before the arrival of the British.

        This is evident from ban on criticism of islam, kuran, sharia, muahmmad, etc, most muslim ladies freely producing at least half a dozen of children-but no Hindu/sikh objecting, crores of Bangladeshi already entered in India and several thousands entering everyday and getting citizenship by virtue of greedy and traitor type politicians who can’t see beyond their personal and caste benefits, parents of Hindu/Sikh/Buddhist girls allowing their daughters to freely marry muslims and convert to islam, Hindu intellectuals happily supporting this damage to Hindus under the illusion of (fake) hindu-muslim unity, fake solidarity etc, Central/State government allowing sharia bank in Kerala and proposed in other states as well, muslims being given so much illegal concessions in the form of reservations due to reco of Sachchar/Rangnathan reports, all political parties in throat-cutting competitions in giving more and more benefits/concessions to muslims just to appease them, media blindly favoring muslims and cunningly suppressing any news related to nuisance created by muslism, such as hundreds of Hindus beaten/humiliated and looted on Sept 7, 2010 in Deganga (West Bengal) by a muslims mob under the leadership of a TrinMulCongress MLA named Hazi Nurul Islam—but no mainstream media reported this.

        Over one thousand divorced and destitute muslims women protested on College square Kolakata on 9th Dec 2010 under the leadership of Dr Maleka Begum of Bangladesh demanding immediate (1) ban on polygamy and quick and one sided talaq system enjoyed only by muslim husbands (2) implementation of common civil code for muslims as well (3)granting same rights to muslims ladies as muslim men enjoy regarding marriage/divorce, etc—but main stream media of India didn’t report this. 99.99% Sikh/Buddhist/Jain intellectual class always try to hide their cowardliness under secularism and avoid discussing any matter that is related to the wild, adamant, illogical, biased and barbaric behavior of muslims. They don’t delay in labeling people like me as communal and accuse of spreading hate.

        Regardless of how brilliant and scientific are the Vedic mantras, they are of little use if they can’t provide us (its followers) wisdom, strength and will power to successfully cope with the islamic aggression/deception, if they cannot protect me from slavery under muslims, if they can’t enable me to protect my rights of freedom of expression that is banned in India (also in Europe/USA and in most other countries) if that relates to islam either directly or indirectly. Vedas are of little or no values, if they can’t enable me to live with high head without any need to do appeasement, sycophancy and service of muslims, if they can’t enable/educate its followers to save their country from falling into the hands of evil islamic forces which seems very likely. India is likely to see a series of muslim PMs very soon and subsequently may become an Islamic state in next 40-50 yrs governed by brutal, inhumane and ridiculous and biased sharia laws. However, the followers of Vedic dharma are not worried at all; rather they are making favorable grounds for growing the poisonous tree of islam in India.

        With thanks & regards,
        NIkhil

        • says

          Dear Brother

          Thanks for the reply. I believe there is a great misconception regarding who is follower of vedas and who is not. Suppose you have a car in your garage but you never use it to travel. Someone told you that this car will make you more efficient in work. So you keep pushing the car with hand wherever you go. While your friends walk casually and reach a destination in 10 minutes, it takes you 2 hours because you have been pushing the car! And then you get frustrated and blame the car for all your debacles, and term it useless.

          The point is that unless you use the car properly – fill petrol, sit inside it, turn on the ignition and drive – it would no way help you. Being protector of car is not sufficient, you have to use it.

          The same has happened with Vedas. While we have spent ages in preserving the content and respecting it, we rarely used them in social and political setup. That is why even tribal barbarics from west asia could butcher us. We were all along living with a stupid caste-system based on birth and gender discrimination. We were indulged in lots of vices and rejected Vedas in all practical aspects of life. Hence the results.

          Vedas are books of best practices. Those who adopt in whatever area would benefit. Americans adopt them in social discipline and hence they are superpowers. We adopt in family, personal level to some extent and hence we have stabler families and less depression cases.

          Vedas demand that you shed all superstitions, fatalism and become action oriented. But we tend to pray to our deities and expect the deities to perform miracles for us! It is non-practice of Vedas that has led to our downfall.

          So unless we start the engine of Vedas, blaming Vedas is of no use. You are concerned with fanaticism in name of Islam. But there are other concerns as well. If we do not consider any benchmark for moral/ ethical standards, today’s problems will become tomorrow’s Frankenstein. In fact the reason why terrorism is all around is that owing to lack of ethical standards and a clear sense of purpose in life for most of us (except short-term hoarding of selfish pleasures) we do not bother to address the challenges until they pinch us.

          And when it pinches us, we go paranoid about it.

          This can become a long discussion. But point is that unless people at large can be convinced of a higher purpose in life beyond the enjoyments we have in decades we spend here, there cannot be a way to combat any fanatic ideology of today or tomorrow. That is where relevance of Vedas come.

          I can challenge that anyone who has read bulk of articles of this site, even for criticism or finding loopholes, would not be a terrorist or fanatic in his actions. Nor would he be an unscrupulous self-serving entity.

          Mindsets take time to change. But even discussions on these topics help change them fast and act as anti-dote to more serious challenges.

          Thus even when many angry Muslim brothers come and abuse us like anything we do not mind. We just observe the patterns. We try to engage him in debates on a variety of articles. That broadens his viewpoint beyond madarsa lane. And even if he continues to hate us and even create Anti-Agniveer sites, it has been ensured that at least that person would not indulge in terrorist acts or promote them. On contrary he would try to diffuse any terrorist thoughts in his society to score a win over Agniveer!

          Brother, human mind is very complex, and mere display of facts does not work. If people were rational enough to reject the wrong and accept the right merely by mention of facts, tobacco would not have been among the most powerful industries of the world!

          So we are looking at a more subliminal and long-term change by targeting the subconscious and ensuring that either way we win!

          Hence the emphasis on Vedic wisdom. We hope our actions will speak louder than this message in times to come.

          Thanks
          Admin

          • Rushmore says

            @ Agniveer: Based on the last 4 paragrpahs, I can emphatically say that this initiative is making a lot of headway. I do have Muslim friends and while they were initially pissed off with you (and Ali Sina ofcourse), atleast one of them,privately told me recently that he could never buy into the story of Muhammad riding on a buraq to Jerusalem or the idea of intercession on judgement day. He was open enough to admit that while he does realize many of what you have posted on your site on Islam are the same questions he ponders too, he can never openly discuss these things with fello Muslims. And the fact that a couple of websites have opened up targetting the Agniveer intiative is positive proof that this is impacting Islam (in the Indian context) and dfficult questions are being asked within the Muslim community. Great going….

          • Nikhil says

            Agniveer Sir,

            I thoroughly read all your posts in responses to my comments. You appear very logical in saying that being action oriented as per Vedic teachings can eliminate many vices and problems of today’s Indian society. I highly appreciate your serious efforts in awakening the people against the wrong concepts and motivating them to act as per Vedic teachings.

            I feel that caste system (marrying within own caste) is the most serious but most ignored problem of Hindu society. This is the main obstacle in fighting both political/economic corruption as well as islamic terrorism/deception. Due to caste-based emotions, bias and prejudice, most Hindu people do caste-based voting and support even the most corrupt, criminal, incompetent and irresponsible person, employee, officer, judge, politician, etc of his own caste and of certain allied castes. Even the honest and competent officers and politicians take decisions with caste bias and prejudice in their minds. Hence, they don’t make best possible selection and decisions. In this environment, a very good and corruption-free political system cannot emerge/evolve. People of all castes, religion, language, etc have to suffer due to this in efficient and corrupt system.

            Indian Hindu society needs to be made caste-less by starting a campaign of inter-caste marraige between the Hindu bride and Hindu groom having similar educational and financial status. Such marriages must involve the families of the bride and the groom in order to unite the two different caste families emotionally, and reduce the caste-based poison from their mind/hearts. But, at present there has been no effort either by individual or group to motivate Hindu parents for inter-caste matrimonial relations.

            As long as caste continues to exists within Hindus, they cannot be united and motivated to think and act ethically/morally. I want to appeal Agniveer to start some campaign to motivate Hindu people for inter-caste marriages with the involvement of family members. Hindu SwamiJi, Shankaracharya, etc can easily motivate people for this, but they don’t want to do so as they themselves appear to have caste bias and love for caste system. Some SwamiJi avoid to speak openly in favor of inter-caste marraige due to fear that his cast-lover supporters/followers might distant themselves from him if he supports inter-caste marriages.

          • says

            You have hit the bull’s eye. This caste system is the root cause of bulk of problems. We remain divided because of this. This stops us from inviting people from other faith to our fold. Someone like Stephen Knapp who has worked more for Hindu cause than all the pandas of Jagannath temple in last 50 years put together, was denied entry to the temple because he was not born as one of the prescribed castes. He was told that God will bless him with birth in a noble family in next life when he can enter Jagannath temple.

            This shameful aspect of Hinduism is the cause of all evils. And you will find scores of pseudo-intellectuals defending this crap as ‘science’. They pervade in all pro-Hindu initiatives and destroy the mission. Check the comments on our articles on caste system and women ( http://agniveer.com/series/vedic-woman/ and http://agniveer.com/series/caste-system-3/ ) and you would find what kind of abuses we get from many who otherwise claim to be from RSS, VHP, Sanatan Dharma brigade.

            Now with such mindsets and total door closure for non-high castes, what moral right do we have to blame the common Muslim for the problems we face. What option does a common Muslim have except surrender to the mafia of mullahs and preachers that govern their lives?

            When Shradhanand carried Shuddhi movement, Karpatriji suggested that they would have to eat cow-dung for several days to purify themselves. Still they can only be considered Hindu as a separate caste and cannot mingle with rest of Hindus. Chandals should live outside cities and not wear jewelleries, as per Kaluram Shastri, another so-called Sanatan Dharma pandit.

            Brother, these are the problems we need to address. No spiritual guru or pandit of a temple ever claims openly that birth based caste system is bogus. That is why Agniveer does not respect any.

            We are clear in our views – we reject all those persons alive today or books existing today as trash that justify birth-based caste-system or gender discrimination. They are the biggest culprits of society. That is why, while we allow dscussions on all other topics, we do not even debate with those terrorists who justify these.

            We hope you are with us in our mission of a completely casteless society.
            Admin

          • Nikhil says

            Agniveer Sir,

            Thanks so much for your clear stand on caste system.

            In my response to Mr Kal Bhairav’s response to my response/comment on this article, I have just posted above a possible solution as how to motivate caste-lover Hindus for inter-caste marriages.

            I urge you to please read that and kindly give your comments as to what extent the suggested methodology to motivate Hindus for inter-caste marriages would work practically considering today’s chaotic/corrupt scenario of India. I appeal other readers as well to give their feedback and suggest modified/alternate methodology for the same. However, regardless of the methodology, campaign for inter-caste marriages among Hindus should start asap.

            With Thanks & Regards,
            Nikhil

          • Sameer says

            Nikhil Brother yes caste system is curse on Hinduism but BR AMBEDKAR has himself said that MUSLIM CASTE SYSTEM IS MUCH WORSE THAN HINDU CASTE SYSTEM and PAKISTAN IS MUCH MORE CASTEIST THAN INDIA and even Arundhati Rao has to admit that there is caste system in Christians also the Higher Caste Christians never allowed Dalit Christians to bury their deads in their graveyard and many other such cases.

            ONE OF SIDE EFFECTS OF SHARIA IS IT CREATES VERY RIGID CASTE SYSTEM MULLAHS BECOME VERY POWERFUL AND BECOME THE SOLE AUTHORITY OF OTHERS LIFE AND PROPERTY. ISLAM HAS 72 SECTS MOST OF THEM DOES NOT SHARE THEIR FOOD WITH OTHERS LIKE THE SHIAS AND SUNNIS WITH EACH OTHER OR WITH NON MUSLIMS.

            IN PAKISTAN OR BANGLADESH IF A HINDU TRIES TO DRINK WATER FROM THE TAP OF MASJID HE AND HIS WHOLE FAMILY WILL BE HUNTED DOWN.

            SO MUSLIM AND CHRISTIANS HAVE NO RIGHT TO BLAME HINDUS FOR CASTE SYSTEM.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asian_Muslims

          • Vik says

            Namaste Agniveer Admin,

            I agree the caste system issue should be taken seriously and dealt with because sadly there are fanatic hindus out there who are defending this crap so we should find ways to counter them, and these same people give strength to muslims who can mock us later on.

            I suggest we should start mocking this caste system publicaly before those hindus who follow it. What I mean by mock is that we should show them how the caste system is a ll a hoax and how its proven to be stupid and against morality. We should bring all those defending hindus who defend this nonsense to a stage where they can no longer refute us and have to accept that caste system is pure man made nonsense because some of these fanatic hindus twist Vedic mantras to support the caste system. We should first target those pandits who support this crap because bulk of hindus blindly follow what pandits say and do.

          • KalBhairav says

            @Vik:

            I agree with the need to mock the caste system as practised in India publicly.

            Two places where caste becomes an absolute necessity seems to be “arranged” marriages and application forms for admission to colleges.

            One set of extremes would be having the government ban

            (a)matrimonial ads that ask for a particular caste/sect/subsect. (This raises questions of governmental overreach – marriage is a private affair. Should the government have any say in this at all?)
            (b)caste-based reservation in admission to colleges, etc. (Our Netajis themselves will be against this due to vote-bank politics reasons.) Make reservation class-based. I am not against affirmative action. It is just that in its current form it is the “creamy layer” that gets benefit out of reservation.

            Let us see.

          • Vik says

            @KalBhairav

            Namaste KalBhairav

            yes, this caste system has to be mocked, anything that is injurious to society should be mocked and insulted, the more we mock it, the more people will lose faith in it and realize that its a hoax, however, we might gain some unexpected fanatic hindu enemies, but again, we have to defend Vedic wisdom even if we have to argue against our own hindu brothers. We are simply trying to show them that they have been following garbage all this time. Caste System is a curse!!

          • Nikhil says

            Mr Vik & Mr Kal Bhairav,

            (1) By quoting the caste or other type of discrimination of islamic/christian societies, we can neither justify, nor ignore the menace and vice of caste system of Hindus. I strongly feel that if Hindus had been made caste-less–and hence united early before Gupta’s period, then we would not have been defeated, humiliated and enslaved by islamic butchers of the middle east. Moreover, opportunity of good education to every section of the Hindu society might have enabled them to contribute more in science & technology, in stead of borrowing most of the knowledge from the WEST.

            (2) Only effective way to eradicate caste system is by motivating people for intercaste marriage (among the Hindus of equivalent social/financial/educational status).

            (3) Just removing reservation from colleges admission/job etc will have no effect on caste system–reservation has started since 1947, but caste system is practiced by Hindus since several thousands years back. Once caste boundaries are blurred, caste-based reservation would automatically become meaningless and removed unanimously.

            (4) Just making a mockery of caste system, removing the columns of caste in application forms/registers, not-using surname that shows caste, etc will also won’t make much difference. Caste and caste-based favor/discrimination would continue to exist–that is the root cause of corruption of Indian Hindu society–hence the politics.

            (5) Hence, pls be practical, and support intercaste marriage strongly whenever or wherever you can. People should not be pressurized, rather be motivated by convincing them that caste-less Hindu society will better united, much less corrupt and much stronger than it is at present. Caste-less Hindus can more effectively resist the encroachment by islam.

          • Vik says

            @Nikhil

            Namaste brother,

            sure, intercaste marriages will probably be the most suitable solutions in this manner. If you notice, even in india, alot of intercaste marriages are taking place. One thing we must admit that the caste system is decreasing. Compare the caste system today, and compare it 100 years earlier, there is a somewhat drop in this too. So we can hope that soon it will decrease. Especially, after the Agniveer site, I am pretty sure many people are aware that Vedas do not sanction this crap so people will stop following it. We just have to make the articles more and more popular amongst those hindus who support this nonsensce.

    • says

      teri maa ka bhosda!!!!!!!!!!…….tum madarchodo ko apne religion ki adce pata nahin hai……lun fakeer jo aata hai apni alag kahani sunata hai ……public ko loootne ke liye tum logo ne yeh religion banaya hai………andh vishwaso se bhara hai tumhaara religion isliye lauduou…..tumhaare religion se log convert hote hai doosre religion mein aur khaskar Islam …..insaan ko jeene ka tareeka samjhaata hai islam……samjha chutiye.

        • GOD IS GREAT says

          All of Judaism, Christianity and Islam provide eternal hell to the infidels & heaven to the believers. See the fallacies -

          1: A Christian would go to heaven if Christianity is considered but hell if Islam is considered. Similarly, Muslims would go to hell if Christianity is considered but to heaven if Islam is considered.

          2: Muslims believe that Jesus isn’t son of GOD while Christians say that Mohammed is false prophet. This proves that one can be either a Christian OR Muslim OR Neither but he / she cannot be both of them.

          3: Interestingly, both Islam & Christianity speak of judgement day by same GOD. (I ignore Judaism here as Judaism is dependent on Torah which is Hebrew version of Old testament) GOD cannot be mad to have different judgement days. So, who will go to heaven and who to hell, this would be decided on same day.

          4: But, we also know that one person cannot be at 2 different places at the same time – that is impossible logically.

          CONCLUSIONS
          Concept of heaven and hell is relative (Read points 1 and 2). Islamic heaven is Christian hell while Christian heaven is Islamic hell (Read point 3 and 4). Now, Muslims and Christians together figure out which is the place worth visiting.
          :-/ :-D

  6. Arup says

    Agniveer i have read in your column that iswar do not create soul and prakrity. My question is than who create those? And Does it not limit the iswar’s power? Pls clear it to me.

    • Vik says

      @Arup

      Namaste Arup,

      I suggest you read Satyarth Prakash, and all of your questions will be answered. Anyways, I will answer your questions briefly, but for details I suggest you read Satyarth Prakash.

      As per Vedas, Ishwar, Souls, and Prakithi are ETERNAL, which means they have no end or beginning, hence, they are UNCREATED. These three entities existed together for eternity and will continue to exist together forever.

      However, Ishwar is the only entity amongst these three, which has power to do things. Souls are unconscious and prakihi is inanimate. Ishwar uses Prakithi to construct the universe, and also makes our bodies and injects the deserving soul into that body.

      So, now you may ask why should our souls subject themselves to Ishwar if He never created them?

      brother, when we play any sport, we always have a coach. Now, the coach did not create us, but if he subject ourselves to the training of the coach, only he can benefit us and help us strengthen our skills.

      Similarly, our souls have to rely on Ishwar for their benefits.

      Every inception, our souls come back to earth in different bodies, depending on our deeds in the previous birth, some may be pious and some may be not. Its our job to do good deeds and elevate our souls towards salvation, but if we do bad, we will degrade our souls and according to the scale by Ishwar, our soul will take the form of something worse.

      Everything of Ishwar is always fixed and never changes because He is perfect, otherwise, He can no longer be referred to as Perfect. Whether its power, emotions, etc.

      He has set laws to both reward and punish us.

      • says

        Namaste Brother Vik

        Great reply and beautiful analogy! Just want to add that souls should not be called as unconscious but unable to create universe and the bodies for themselves. They just act within limits of their capabilities.

        • Vik says

          Namaste Brother Vajra

          thanks for the correction, please feel free to correct me each time if I say anything incomplete. Once again, thanks.

          • says

            Brother Vik

            Love your logical comments and analogies a lot and above all your modesty

            May we all help each other in making the journey of Moksha unforgettable

          • Vik says

            Namaste Brother Vajra,

            all these analogies are simply spoken from the heart, nothing more. If they tend to help people I would be more than happy to help them like this. But many of my muslim brothers neglect simple logic and they do not realize that they are pushing themselves in hurdles.

            Sure, its our duty to help each other…..

          • maitreya says

            Brothers ….

            i am trying to known our mother religion in a better way … but i also wish to ask agniveer why have you taken taken refrences of Qadiyani scholar Maulana Abdul Haque Vidyarthi . his community the ahmedias are not awarded the status of muslims in apkistan… if we take the refrences of such scholors who had accepted vedas to be of divine origin then it would be acceptable by these fanatic muslims….

            In any debate we reject views which are not acceptable to us …..dont you too feel so .. Using the refrence of ahmediyas to endorse the vedas as divine book

            Do correct me if i am wrong ….

          • says

            Namaste dear maitreya

            Nowhere in the article it is said that we agree with the references of Abdul Haq Qadiyani. Article only tells that Zakir Naik (a popular preacher among Muslims today) has copied word to word from this Qadiyani’s book which believes Vedas to be divine.

            Belief of any Qadiyani or any Muslim is not the basis of any claim of the article.

            Thanks

      • vaidik says

        dear brother think this way
        suppose God is creator of objects.and created prakrati………then question comes by which material he created this universe…”mass can neither be created nor be destroyed”..if god created prakrati then he must have to break the law of nature……but can you believe that GOD will break the laws of nature…….I think know…………..prakrati , jeev and Brahman don’t need a creator…………they are eternal , nitya

  7. binode says

    agniveer ji,
    namaste
    was curious to know when was the vedas penned down, what was the language or text in which it was written and where is it preserved currently?
    please reply.

  8. ashveen says

    there are professers who say dat aliens are real creature much advancer than us! and may be all those scientific facts in the vedas which wer found only a few yrs ago, cud be writen dwn by aliens! what is your view point on this agniveer!
    pls dnt say there is no such thing as aliens cuz there is a certian set of professers who agree on advanced alien life and there is another set debunking this! the same senario wit god one group says there is no god another group prooves there is god!
    wat if they vedas wer writen by alien!

  9. Shankar N Kashyap says

    Once pure science and emotional attachment is left and logic is used, one would be allowed to conclude that Rigveda was written by the Harappans.
    Comments please.
    Shankar

    • AVNRao says

      Harappan civilisation is an Urban civilisation whereas many hymns in Rigveda seem to refer a rural way of living Hence Harappans are not the authors of Rigveda. They must be much more ancient than the Harappans.

    • Hindu_atheist says

      @Sam John
      And, which rapist was repsonsible for the “virgin birth” of Jesus? Birth woithout copulation?? Only bacteria and other micro-organisms can acheive it!! So, was Jesus a microbe?

  10. Shiv says

    There are many things which we can refer to Vedas for modern corporate culture.
    There is one shanthi manthra;
    ! Ssahana bhavathu sahanau bhunakthu saha veeryam karavavahai thejaswi naamadheeth asthu madvishavahai !
    This is a shanthi mathra from vedas asked to rendered by student and teacher before starting the discussion and after as well. Which means, both of us are equal, what are we going to discuss/discussed would feed us the knowledge/food, both of us would be energized aftermath, and the discussion takes us to enlightenment.
    What a standard of educational system. There is no superiority and subordinate complex between teacher and student.
    Om thath sath

  11. vijay says

    how to come back to veda agniveer
    first i searched a lot for veda online and i wrote three time mail to you that i need all veda in original with sanskrit and in hindi also but not reply

  12. Satyen says

    Circumcision, until the child is 18 and gives his/her consent, should be banned in India. Any attempt to go with circumcision without the 18 year old child should be considered as bodily harm to him/her and the offender must to prosecuted. It’s an inhuman and savage practice which is continuing in the garb of religion. Screaming children while being circumcised, are the scene of cruelty impersonated. Attempt to abolish this practice should not be considered as religious intereference as the suffering child is a child of the nation and its safety is a collective responsibility. Muslims should lead this movement. Even Indian constitutional provisions not only allow but even encourage to stop the unhygienic and inhuman acts in the garb of religion. Are the saviours of crying children with pain, listening? Germany has already taken the lead (see the Times of India).

  13. Satyen says

    Dear Agniveer,

    A must watch video for all the so called Muslims. I recommend it to be posted on the top of the first page of this site for some time so that all the visitors get a chance to see the video that is meant to highlight the anti-Quranic cruel practice of circumcision. Further, I would suggest it to be placed in the videos of Agniveer. Please go to the following link to watch the video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5B4MvoesQU

  14. dogra says

    Satyne, can you not talk about other religions, this site should just be about Sanatan Dharma, let us not concern ourselves with other faiths, we need to spread message of clear humanity in Vedas, thats it!

  15. Satyen says

    Dogra jee,

    Namaste. You have pointed towards the goal of Sanatan Dharma i.e. Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam (the whole world is our family). I am doing exactly the same thing. Trying to ameliorate the pain of the children is also the duty of every human being. It doesn’t matter if the children belong to some particular faith. What type of faith is that that afflicts injury to helpless children in the garb of religious ritual? Americans have come down from 92% circumcision cases to 50% such cases. On the othe hand our Zakir Bhaiya is saying that the above numbers are a proof that circumcision is scientifically prescribed for humans! The Medical body of USA says it doesn’t endorse this act. So, who will save the humanity from this spread of cruel unscientific practice? The ignorants are following the cunning advices and the knowledgeables are indifferent. Do you thing its a promising situation to continue with? In my opinion, this heart renting practice which is not a required custom, must be stopped. The Sanatanis should educate the masses.
    The doctor also says that male gets more sexual pleasure if he has circumcised organ while the sexologists say just the opposite! A doctor spreading the myths to attract the Hindu youths to the unscientific belief must be objected? If not, he will go berserk.
    Brother, I think the Sanatan Dharma must be practised, not just learnt. Let’s educate the masses to hake them happier by protecting them from the saddists. Let’s join hands together with our enlightened Muslim brothers and sisters. Muslim children are same as our children.

    Sarve Bhavantu Sukhinah, Sarve Santu Niraamayaah.

  16. rishika says

    Thanks to Agniveer and Nikhil.
    It was really nice conversation on the current problems among hindus. I really enjoyed this.
    Caste problem is really the biggest problem in India. We should try our best to completely abolish it in whatever way we can. In India and outside, caste is actually used as identity or to get stereotypic image of that particular person. Sometimes, people (generally indians) are hesitant to ask your caste directly, but they will try to find the region to which you belong. I live in USA and most of the times when I happen to meet any indian (at conference, airport or any meeting), they will try to find out the state to which I belong. It is so amusing whenever I tell them that I belong to New Delhi or Mumbai, they are never satisfied. They could not get enough material to associate to one particular caste. It is so funny to see how casteism is so deeply ingrained in their minds. So it is very important that we should discourage this mind set.
    - We should change our mindset, rather than we think ourselves belonging to a particular caste, we should consider ourselves as vedic or rishi (a person who is truth seeker). We should have general surnames like Kumar or Kumari etc.
    - Intercaste marriage is a solution to some extent but I have lot of friends who had intercaste marriage but still they talk about their caste openly. It does not look like that they are far from any casteist mindset. Actually they openly declare that I belong to this caste and my wife belongs to that caste and both castes are somehow the best. So funny to see their logic and explanation about different attributes associated with caste system.
    - Marriage should be based on the understanding, love and trust between two person. It does not matter if they belong to same caste or different caste. Yes, majority of marriages in India are arranged and parents/relatives intentionally find bride/groom based on the caste system. That is completely absurd and there should be more motivation to find better or matching person irrespective of caste and creed.
    - In my opinion, change comes from within. We should start with teachings in our family first. Please teach your kids that you do not belong to any caste but belong to vedic religion and your ancestors were rishis. There was no caste at that time. It was an era that everyone wanted to explore spiritual path as much as they can. Please start with your family and make it sure that your kids feel proud of their inheritance that they received in the form of vedas, Upanishads. Ram, Krishna, Swami Dayanand, Swami Vivekanand, and many freedom fighters, Maharana Partap, Shivaji, Rani Laxmibai, Nataji Subash do not belong to any particular caste or region, but all of them belong to one sect – Vedic sect. Though they had different roles in their lives depending on the circumstances and did their best to be a role model.
    I feel so lucky that I found this agniveer.com website. This is the best website for any intellectual who really wants to invest his/her time in the best possible way. Thanks so much for spreading awareness. Now whosoever wants to remove the darkness has the opportunity to do it. Please keep doing this work and please let me know if I can help in this task anyway. Thanks.
    Best regards
    Rishika

  17. Vimal Rathinasamy says

    I find this Swami Vivekananda’s Quote very appealing, regarding Vedas:

    “The Hindus have received their religion through revelation, the Vedas. They hold that the Vedas are without beginning and without end. It may sound ludicrous to this audience, how a book can be without beginning or end. But by the Vedas no books are meant. They mean the accumulated treasury of spiritual laws discovered by different persons in different times. Just as the law of gravitation existed before its discovery, and would exist if all humanity forgot it, so is it with the laws that govern the spiritual relations between soul and soul and between individual spirits and the Father of all spirits were there before their discovery, and would remain even if we forgot them.

    The discoverers of these laws are called Rishis, and we honor them as perfected beings. I am glad to tell this audience that some of the very greatest of them were women.

    Here it may be said that these laws as laws may be without end, but they must have had a beginning. The Vedas teach us that creation is without beginning or end. Science is said to have proved that the sum total of cosmic energy is always the same. Then, if there was a time when nothing existed, where was all this manifested energy? Some say it was in a potential form in God. In that case God is sometimes potential and sometimes kinetic, which would make Him mutable. Everything mutable is a compound and everything compound must undergo that change which is called destruction. So God would die, which is absurd-Therefore, there never was a time when there was no creation.”

    -Swami Vivekananda
    Chicago, Illinois
    19 September 1893

  18. Vijay says

    Brothers,
    we need to be united and equal you all are thinking on problems in Hinduism it is good sign for our nation.
    I am Buddhist Dr.Ambedkar already given solutions on eradication of caste system in Hinduism. I wish all the best to all of you for first step taken in direction of solving these problems. I am not very fluent in English
    pls don’t msunderstand
    thank you
    Bhavatoo Sabba Mangalam

    • Arun says

      The first way to eradicate the caste system in Hinduism is for all Hindus to be aware that there is no caste system in Hinduism. Varna is not hereditary and that is the only thing that is in Hinduism. Based on an individual’s interest, he or she may take up a profession that fits into one of the four Varna categories. That is what is in Hinduism, not caste. Jati is community that one may be born into and there is absolutely nothing wrong with communities, in fact they are a healthy and important part of Indian diversity. Caste is a word derived from Portuguese and not only that it embodies a Portuguese concept of race based fixed class status which has nothing to do with Hinduism. Look at this explanation of “Casta” at this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casta
      Europeans were wrong to project Casta onto Hinduism. Many Western scholars have recognized this. In addition the social position of jatis was not as fixed as Westerners initially stated. It was fluid. That jatis fit into one Varna or another was not because of Hinduism but because of Indians. Hinduism only spoke about an individual’s occupation fitting into one of the four Varnas. It did not recommend whole jatis fitting into one or the other Varna.

      So the first key thing to eradicate caste system in Hinduism is to recognize there is no caste system in the actual Hindu religion.

  19. Satyan says

    Great effort Agniveer ji. Through your article, it implies that the actual creator (Supreme Soul/God) speaks in poetic meters or chhandas which were ‘seen’ or ‘known’ to our rishis with the accurate ‘guru’ and ‘laghu’ positions of various syllables; isn’t this another Miracle?
    Kindly elaborate.

    • Jay Arya says

      this agniveer’s response but i dont think they knew instead they got from god and it may have taken time to fullu understand and spread i wouldnt say that is a miracle

  20. rozer says

    hi sanjeev. i know that rishis wrote vedas. but how they knew about the mantras. how they heard or find these mantras. parmatma spoke to them. and where are original vedas. plz explain.

    • says

      Rozer, How do you know you have to love your mother? How does mother know that her child is her most precious possession? It all comes from within. When mind is pure beyond a threshold, purest forms of inspiration comes from within. That is why it is called Akashwani – Akash refers to Hridayakash or inner voice. This is how Paramatama communicates with us all. This is how Vedas came – sages with purest of hearts got inspiration from within. At that time, the sound, meaning, words all converged to one. Each sound has an impact on mind. Many are obvious like in almost all cultures child refers to mother with a variant of Maa. Some become visible as mind is freer from external noise and bad sanskars. When utmost purity is reached, Vedas emerge. They were already there, they have been guiding us always. But in such clear forms, they come in hearts of those whose purity is beyond a certain level. Such people, at inception of civilization, unraveled the Vedas from within their heart through blessings of Paramatma and started teaching others based on these. They then formed methods to protect the Vedas through various technical techniques (We have an article on this as well – search ‘textual corruption in Vedas Agniveer’ on google.)

      • rozer says

        thanks for previous answer. i m very glad. once zakir naik ( zoker nalayak) asked ( debate on veg and non veg) to some one on stage that how can eskimos servived without seafood. that allah made seafood for them. eskimos servived only on seafood. plz explain.

        • says

          How many people are forced to live like Eskimos? And what is the health status of eskimos. They have serious longevity issues, suicidal tendencies, high cancer rate. And today, even veg food can be made easily available to them when fast food is made available. But yes, if an eskimo eats meat, that may be his compulsion. However when rest of us eat meat, that is an optional choice at cost of environment and hunger of others.

        • Arun says

          Rozur, you can eat seafood anywhere in the world if you choose. Eskimos chose to remain in a land where agriculture is not possible. They could have migrated on to other lands, warmer lands further South, these thousands of years instead of staying up North living on ice. So even Eskimos had a choice. Today Eskimos have even more choice to include non-meat products in their diet as they are a part of one Western nation or another and can go to the grocery store like everyone else to shop instead of hunting for food like their ancestors.

          And FYI Zakir Naik is banned from entering the UK and Canada because of his the terrible things he has said. He is no good. So think twice before listening to such a bAD man unfit for civilized society.

  21. Shiva says

    This is quite interesting subject, I have done research on this topic for about 8+ years by visiting several places, by meeting several people and books.

    The answer is in “EESHAVYASA UPANISHAD”, When the veda’s are written? Who is the author? What is the time line?

    The verse in the 12th SLOKA says :

    “ITHI SHUSRUMA DHEERAANAAM; YENA STHADVICHA CHAKHIRE”

    The rishi declares that “ We have learnt Jnana from guru’s; they defined it like this”

    The base of the sanathana dharma is “GURU-SISHYA” parampara. Many rishis have enlightened in many ways. And the knowledge is descended to the students. Hence, “HINDU DHARMA” has not produced only single messenger. It is full of “JNANI’s” and not have single holy text book. Many.

    Yadbhavam thath bhavathi; the god is omnipresent;

  22. says

    You are actually a very good site owner. Your website running swiftness is wonderful. Apparently you are doing any kind of one of a kind technique. In addition, A articles tend to be masterwork. you have done an exquisite practice on this subject!

Trackbacks

Please read "Comment Policy" and read or post only if you completely agree with it. Comments above 2000 characters will be moderated. You can share your views here and selected ones will be replied directly by founder Sri Sanjeev Agniveer.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

 characters available

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>