Buddhism is often considered to be an anti-Vedic atheist philosophy. Today there are a huge number of schools and sects within Buddhism (exceeded perhaps only by Islam in terms of a number of divisions, sects, sub-sects within). But if we review the original teachings of Gautam Buddha, we find that he was only trying to teach the concepts of Vedas to best of his understanding.
Vocabulary of Buddhism
The vocabulary of Buddhism is adopted from prevailing literature.
• The word Buddha comes in Mahabharat Shantiparva 193/6 to mean ‘intelligent.’
• Bodhisatva has been used for Sri Krishna in Shishupal Vadh 15/58 and its commentary by Vallabhdeva.
• Bhikshu again is a word denoting certain sage in Mahabharat Shantiparva 325/24 and Gautam Dharmasutra 3/2.
• Shraman comes in Brihadaranyak Upanishad and Gautam Dharmasutra.
• Nirvana comes from Deval Dharmasutra and so on.
The famous Buddhist chant of Om Mani Padme Hum speaks for itself on the glory of Om – that originates from Vedas and is an integral part of Hinduism.
Vedas in the teachings of Mahatma Buddha
In Sutta Nipat 192, Mahatma Buddha says that:
Vidwa Cha Vedehi Samechcha Dhammam Na Uchchavacham Gachhati Bhooripanjo.
People allow sense-organs to dominate and keep shuffling between high and low positions. But the scholar who understands Vedas understands Dharma and does not waver.
Sutta Nipat 503:
Yo Vedagu Gyanarato Sateema …….
One should support a person who is master of Vedas, contemplative, intelligent, helpful if one desires to inculcate similar traits.
Sutta Nipat 1059:
Yam Brahmanam Vedagum Abhijanjya Akinchanam Kamabhave Asattam……
One gets free from worldly pains if he/she can understand a Vedic scholar, who has no wealth and free from attraction towards worldly things.
Sutta Nipat 1060:
Vidwa Cha So Vedagu Naro Idha Bhavabhave Sangam Imam Visajja…..
I state that one who understands the Vedas rejects attraction towards the world and becomes free from sins.
Sutta Nipat 846:
Na Vedagu Diththia Na Mutiya Sa Manameti Nahi Tanmayoso….
One who knows Vedas does not acquire false ego. He is not affected by hearsay and delusions.
Sutta Nipat 458:
Yadantagu Vedagu Yanjakaale Yassahuti Labhe Taras Ijjeti Broomi
I state that one who acquires Ahuti in Havan of a Vedic scholar gets success.
These are just a few examples from works of Mahatma Buddha.
Why Mahatma Buddha rejected Vedas
Many say that Mahatma Buddha rejected Vedas. However, this is far from the truth.
Mahatma Buddha did not reject Vedas per se, but he dismissed the malpractices happening in the name of Vedas.
For example, if we call someone – He is a Neta of India – today, he may get offended and feel as if we have called him corrupt and manipulative. This is not because Neta word in itself means ‘corrupt’, but because this is what we see of the so-called Netas today.
Similarly, when Mahatma Buddha questioned birth-based casteism, animal sacrifice, and other nonsense practices, he got answer that Vedas sanction so. Like any sane morally upright person would do, Mahatma Buddha stated that: “If Vedas sanction these evil practices, then I reject Vedas.”
Had Gautam Buddha obtained an opportunity to study the actual Vedas and not go by the false notions prevailing, he could no way have issued such a statement.
If that had happened, then the country and the entire world would have been strong enough to counter barbaric attacks of West/ Central Asian tribals that have resulted in the greatest problem of last 1000 years – terrorism. But that was the destiny we had to face. Because there was none to propagate the philosophical foundation of Vedas instead of mechanical and often illogical ritualism in name of Vedas.
Basic precepts of Buddhism
If we review the basic precepts of Buddhism, they are simply Vedic teachings reworded. For example,
• The four cardinal truths on life, suffering, desire, cessation are straight from Yoga and Nyaya Darshan. In fact, Nyaya Darshan 1.2 echoes almost the same essence in as many words.
• The eight fold path is adequately covered in a variety of ways in all ancient texts – Vedas, Manusmriti, Mahabharat and Yoga Darshan for example.
• The emphasis on Ahimsa is adapted from Yoga Darshan that puts Ahimsa as the first essential discipline for progress in Yoga- the process of realizing self and God.
• Theory of rebirth and Law of Karma that Buddhism is built upon finds its foundation in mantras of Vedas.
• Rejection of birth-based caste system is also in lines with Vedas.
• Emphasis on meditation is straight adopted from the Yoga Darshan that itself is based on Vedas.
• The five commandments for Buddhists and especially monks are from Yoga Darshan 1.2.3
In summary, one can state that Buddhism, as preached by Gautam Buddha, was a system of morality based on Vedas.
Why was Mahatma Buddha atheist?
Mahatma Buddha was not an atheist. Atheism developed later. At best, Gautam Buddha can be said to be agnostic. He believed that first and foremost duty is to raise one’s intellect level through the practice of a moral code of conduct and mind control.
Mahatma Buddha did not believe in arguments or debates. He had a very practical approach. Mahatma Buddha refused to either deny or acknowledge the presence of God or a supreme entity. He was content with teaching self-control and self-constraint and did not take the trouble of attempting a solution of the great problems of Universe: How it began? Is it everlasting? Have I existed in past? Will I exist forever? etc.
Later philosophers of Buddhism did attempt to solve these mysteries through their own analysis, and that is how Buddhism developed so many branches and sects.
In Kula Mayukyaovad Majjhama Nikaya there is a reference where someone asked Gautam Buddha whether the world is everlasting. He replied, “Did I ever promise that I shall teach you whether the world is everlasting or not? If not, then do not press the inquiry.” In Sabbasava Sutta, he suggests that such inquiries into self and universe are meaningless.
Mahatma Buddha focused on practical aspects and neglected the theoretical or metaphysical aspects. This was perhaps because he wanted to ensure that ritualistic malpractices do not overshadow the core essence of his teachings.
However, these are natural questions in any human being, and thus, later Buddhists had to make up for this deficiency in a variety of ways.
However, if we review the original philosophy of Mahatma Buddha, there is no evidence of him being atheist or anti-Vedic.
His attitude towards Vedas and Theism was that of indifference rather than rejection. In this indifference lied his Vedic Foundation. Because he eventually adopted only from the Vedas to form his ideology and strived to be an honest practitioner of – “Accept the truth, reject the rest” to best of his capability and intent.
Impact of Buddhism
Buddhism had a great impact during its times. It paved the way for rejection of distortions and external symbols towards nurture of morality. Since Buddhism did not challenge any of the key philosophical foundations of existing way of life – rebirth, the law of karma, emphasis on morality – it became popular not only in India and across Asia. However, soon it declined especially in India.
Decline of Buddhism
As Mahatma Buddha, himself said,
“The body contains within itself the power to renew its strength but also the causes that lead to its destruction.”
In the case of Buddhism, the cause lied in its incompleteness. While it adopted the moral precepts of Vedas, it ignored the metaphysical foundations. While a whole generation of Buddhist philosophers did spring up later, they could not address the key metaphysical questions convincingly and cohesively on Self, Universe, and Unchangeable Laws. This may work for pragmatics but not for the truly philosophical minds.
A mind tired with illogical ways of life may find great reprieve in focusing purely on moral precepts and meditation. However, for someone who hails for a culture having a vast legacy of philosophical richness in every mundane and not-so-mundane aspect of life, there are more questions needed to be explored to quench the intellectual thirst.
Acharya Shankar debated with Buddhists of his era and proved that whatever Buddhism (of that era) argues by denying the existence of God can also be explained by Adwait (One singular entity everywhere). For centuries, the debate between atheists and Vedic continued giving rise to a vast number of philosophical texts in India.
Later Buddhism tried to deny more clearly the existence of God and even that of the soul but could not give a satisfactory substitute. They believed in eternal, immutable law and never ending the chain of cause and effect.
However, in the absence of an entity ensuring that the laws work smartly and for our benefit, it was a blind alley: A religion without a deity!
A worshipper without an object of worship!
This forced Buddhists to evolve their own elaborate set of ceremonies, rituals, idols, chants and practices, but this only brought them in a rift with the original concepts. Some historians state that idol-worship began with Buddhism. All this kept splitting it into so many branches that are startlingly different at times. The religion supposed to be based on logic, intellect and mind-control has developed loads of superstitions, blind beliefs, tantra practices, witchcraft and myths of miracles. Today, the Divine Dalai Lama superstition has become the foundation of popular Buddhism.
The rift widened so much that the religion, which is said to have been based on a foundation of Non-Violence or Ahimsa, and which is said to have rejected Vedas because Vedas were perceived to sanction animal sacrifice, is one of the largest consumers of meat products today!
In many Buddhist places, they hang a board outside meat-shop that says: “Believe Us, This meat is not for you.” The monks are guilt-free in eating meat in these shops!!
When someone asked Dalai Lama while he was helping himself with a serving of meat, he said, “I am Buddhist. I am not vegetarian!”
Ironically, what is taught today across the world is that Mahatma Buddha got perturbed when he saw people carrying animals for sacrifice and hence rebelled! Very few people perhaps know that the cult that had its very origin in Animal Rights is the largest killer of animals today! All for taste!
Moreover, followers of Vedas – which were alleged to endorse animal killing in name of Vedic Yajnas – are today the greatest proponents of Animal Rights!
In fact, many sects of Buddhism believe that Mahatma Buddha died due to indigestion from consumption of pork offered as charity. (As per these sects whatever provided in charity must be consumed.)
Similarly, Buddhism, which started with rejecting man-made caste system, is itself now divided into so many sects/ sub-sects each having its own sect-specific practices. It is followers of Vedas who reject all man-made divisions and appeal for the oneness of entire humankind regardless of man-made rituals and beliefs. The roles are completely reversed today.
Coming back to the roots, Vedas seems to be the best way to emulate Gautam Buddha today!!
Buddhism could create appeal among other regions and can impress Christians today (Christianity derives its philosophical foundation in Buddhism and hence, it is the next logical bridge for Christians to an evolved and more matured view of life). But for India, which has been home to a whole chain of eminent thinkers, the vagueness of Buddhism could not hold its appeal for long.
Today, whatever Buddhism prevails in India is primarily a reaction to the birth-based caste system and related rituals that are wrongly attributed to Vedas. Ask these neo-Buddhists what they know about Buddhism and they will respond that all they know is that Ambedkar adopted Buddhism to protest against caste system! Time to spread that real Hinduism of Vedas is anti-casteist.
Final blow to Buddhism
The final blow to Buddhism came from Islamic invasion in the medieval era. The Bamiyan Buddhas of Afghanistan are mute spectators of that gory period of history. Buddhism, by its very rejection of other aspects of life except moral precepts, became most vulnerable to Muslim attacks. This has been the greatest damaging gift of Buddhist ideology to present era. The escapist Buddhist view that preferred to be neutral to all that happens with us in the world, coupled with a damaging caste system among Hindus, made sure that barbaric, uncivilized tribals could decimate us and establish their dominance. Hinduism could still survive due to its inherent emphasis on realism, but Buddhism perished. And this untimely perish had further adverse outcomes on future of India in the form of philosophical downtime.
Though, Buddhism of Myanmar has learnt its lessons and is adopting a zero-tolerance approach to terrorism.
Ask any weight-trainer and he would tell that if one needs to build big biceps, one needs to focus on leg squats as well. Lop-sided development does not work. It only causes injuries.
Similarly, mere focus on moral precepts does not work for society. One has to dwell into other aspects – society, politics, science, philosophy, metaphysics – for things to work out.
That is why Vedas emphasize and train on a vast variety of subjects.
While Buddhism adopted the moral precepts from Vedas, it made a blunder by ignoring the full picture, and that changed the path of history forever.
In fact, Buddhism was not supposed to be a distinct sect in the first place. It was merely supposed to be a philosophy focusing on moral aspects of life. Mahatma Buddha did not give any preaching on other aspects at all. The blunder was that his followers took his specific but narrow focus as a complete recipe of life.
Often we get so enamored by personalities that we lose the big picture. We consider fullness in whatever attracts our attention for long. For example, we witnessed the cricket drama for a month, and now there seems nothing more patriotic than winning a World Cup and recommending Bharat Ratna for a cricketer!
Similarly, most cults sprang up because the followers failed to consider the deeds and views of their role models as a critical PART of a bigger picture and instead considered completeness in that SMALL PART.
Mahatma Buddha considered eradication of misery as the Mission. While this is true, he took it to a narrow extreme and hence created a philosophy that was too pessimistic for the common man to be motivated enough for worthwhile actions. Or maybe he did not have this intention, but this is what we observe from literature of that era.
This coupled with the absence of any discussions on the key questions that initiate spiritual thinking – Who am I? Will I die forever? Will this world end?, etc. – left no incentive for a layman to extend his efforts beyond sitting in an isolated place trying to control the mind. Why would then one make a sacrifice for the nation, fight the enemies and work for smiles on the face of his fellow-beings when he does not know clearly why he is doing so?
Today, psychologists would tell us that running away from miseries cannot bring the same level of motivation for worthwhile actions than a desire for greater happiness.
Avoidance of miseries because the world is full of miseries implies that one would naturally escape from worldly duties because even these performance of these duties would cause indulgence and hence miseries.
After all, Buddhist philosophy asserted that our misery began the moment we were born. To deny even the Self (Anatma) to become indifferent to pain becomes the goal of life. How can then indifference generate actions when there is even no vaguely clear end-goal to be reached, and denial is the best recipe?
Mahatma Buddha talked of four right beliefs:
• Knowledge of misery,
• Knowledge of origin of misery,
c• Knowledge of cessation of misery and
• Knowledge of path leading to the cessation of misery.
However, when even ‘I’ does not exist, who will work for getting these right beliefs? Moreover, what would be obtained? This incompleteness led to rank pessimism. The philosophies that emerged to counter this blinded belief system of Mahatma Buddha also suffered from the same pessimism and inherent inertia against vigorous actions.
Buddhism was doing bicep curls but not squatting sufficiently. It took only one part of the Vedic message but ignored the rest.
Nationalism and reformist zeal could not co-exist prominently with Buddhism. (Even though Mahatma Buddha himself was an extremely dynamic man.) It left Buddhism defenseless against savage attacks and created ‘Parable of Boiled Frog‘. If we put a frog in hot water, it would jump out immediately. However, if we put it in a beaker and gradually increase the temperature of water from cold to warm, from hot to boiling, the frog does not jump out. It dies instead. This is because the nervous system of frog is unable to detect gradual changes in temperature.
• Lack of focus on proactive action plus
• View of life being a misery in either case – action or no action plus
• Belief in everything being futile because everything is temporary and
• Refusal to look into the bigger picture and focusing only on a narrow set of precepts turned Buddhism into a frog.
It offered little resistance to invaders and virtually opened the doors for savages to India. Whatever Buddhism survived is far from original thoughts of the founder – a countless number of sects/ sub sects with an extremely diverse view and having the only image of Gautam Buddha in common.
Gita cautioned that wise people (Buddhas) must refrain from teaching too much wisdom to less intelligent people. This aggravates situation because they stop doing their duties in delusion of being intellectual. And fail to get wise due to their limitations. Buddhism suffered due to bypassing of this caution.
Pleasures many times exceed the pain
It is true that there is suffering in the world. But to say that it is pure unalloyed suffering, with no iota of pleasure is a dangerous generalization. Absolute unalloyed pessimism cannot goad a man to action. The world is not an abode of misery. The Benevolent God could not have made such a nasty world where suffering reigns. Even the most miserable in the world has some sort of joy that keeps him up. Even stoics had to summon up an exceptional resolve when they prepared themselves for suicide. No sane being wishes to die because behind all miseries there is hope that the all-blissful God will not leave us in the lurch. Whether one believes in God or not, in this hope for a better future lies the bliss and acceptance of Supreme power. To deny this is to deny reality. Moreover, a philosophy that denies realism cannot face the challenges of the real world.
Kapila states in Sankhya 5.113 that at least during Sushupti (deep slumber), Samadhi (deep meditation) and Moksha (Salvation) soul gets an experience of Supreme bliss.
Swami Dayanand succinctly explained the flaw in lines of Vedas: “If you compare the pleasure and pain of the world, pleasures many times exceed the pain. And many pure souls earn the bliss of salvation by constant practice of virtuous actions.”
(If Agniveer were to pick the most inspiring quote from entire Vedic teachings it has ever come across, it would undoubtedly be this one.)
This makes the Vedic philosophy distinctly optimistic and invigorating. It assuages the rigor of present life and makes the future hopeful. It illumines our present as well as future.
We wish if someone could have made this statement during times of Mahatma Buddha! History would have been different.
In the absence of this, Buddhism turned to escapism. (even though Mahatma Buddha himself was a man of action.)
When the savages attacked
• We were occupied with our meditation to ignore the self and cause of misery through indifference.
• We neglected built up of strong armies, regular training, and R&D on defense.
• We were indifferent to the need for reformist zeal to break the very roots of the caste system and gender discrimination.
• We refused to look into the Vedas to discover what the original teachings were.
• We were simply practicing indifference to real challenges around.
And today, while Buddhism does not prominently exist in India (except in Dharmashala where Dalai Lama is forced to have asylum after Chinese aggression), the philosophy and the myriad of other philosophies that emerged to amend or counter it, turns us into a fatalistic society. We have developed high inertia, resist the urge to face challenges, attempt to use philosophy as a tool to justify our escapism and have gradually moved towards becoming indifferent to whatever does not pinch us too strongly.
Ahimsa has become just an alibi for laziness and cowardice.
Conclusion
We do not mean that Buddhism is to be blamed for all this. Not at all. Buddhism was a natural reaction to the prevailing ironies in the society of those times. An essential one. We believe that people have different needs and level of evolution and hence, for many including Mahatma Buddha, this was the most optimal view of life. For a society that was focusing too much on blind rituals and irrational social practices, Buddhism gave the right shock to spur up more rational and logical thinking. The roots of the problem lay much earlier, and Buddhism was merely a logical and necessary outcome.
• Teachings of Mahatma Buddha are based purely on moral aspects of Vedas.
• His teachings also showcase his respect for Vedas.
• His vocabulary and usages were derived from Vedic texts.
• He was, in summary, a Vedic preacher to the best of his abilities.
There is NO WAY that Buddhism of Gautam Buddha can be termed as separate from Vedic Dharma. It is as much an offshoot attempting to reach the source – Vedic wisdom – as other sects.
However, the defection of the narrow, incomplete focus of Buddhism into a complete philosophy in its own right (which it never meant to be in first place) was detrimental to national interests.
Had Buddhism been a more informed and complete philosophy based on a more thorough and rigorous study of Vedas, instead of its apparent paradoxical rejection based on extremely superficial grounds, history would have been different.
Had Buddhists spent efforts to reform the society the way Raja Ram Mohun Roy and Swami Dayanand attempted, instead of attempting to split into a separate sect (which it never was), history would have been different.
Similarly, if all other sects and cults would not have been based on the bounded rationality of few well-intentioned men and had instead attempted to grab the complete picture of the concepts in their original source, the Vedas, the world would have been a much more sensible place today. Much more tolerant, broader in outlook and rational.
Whatever good that we see in any cult or sect is already existing in Vedas though elaborated through works and teachings of great legends from time to time. However, because most of these founders were addressing their imminent short-term needs and the followers believed in the exclusivity of their sect, the holistic view got missing.
The key lesson is that any incomplete or temporary solution for today would eventually become a problem tomorrow.
The only way is to adopt the complete solution
Swami Dayanand suggested a way to approach this issue of so many sects and cults and religions touching one part of the elephant each. Let all the common points in all these sects be brought together that are acceptable to all. For example, non-violence, morality, nationalism, truthfulness, non-stealing. Then eliminate all assumptions, beliefs and practices unique to each sect that is not otherwise explainable. This becomes the Universal Dharma for all human beings, and this is exactly what Vedas teach.
Agniveer respects all the great men of history who attempted to bring society closer to Vedic living and aspires that we evolve to reach the original source that all these great legends were attempting to reach – The wisdom of Vedas. Instead of viewing completeness in our own silo, let us attempt to integrate all the silos together into One. Let’s get back to the roots instead of holding on to each tiny branch as the source. No, we do not mean that all branches to be cut-off and only root of the tree should remain. We only desire that each branch knows that we form a tree only when all the branches are together and supported by the root. A branch detached from rest of the branches and root would only be a dry piece of wood. Let’s all be One Tree and strengthen the roots of the Tree that would then strengthen us all. This is the only way to pay our homage to their legacy. Our failure to do so brought us the miseries we faced till today.
Our success would ensure Shantih (peace, bliss, happiness) everywhere.
ॐ द्यौ: शान्तिरन्तरिक्षँ शान्ति:
पृथिवी शान्तिराप: शान्तिरोषधय: शान्ति: ।
वनस्पतय: शान्तिर्विश्वे देवा: शान्तिर्ब्रह्म शान्ति:
सर्वँ शान्ति: शान्तिरेव शान्ति: सा मा शान्तिरेधि ॥
ॐ शान्ति: शान्ति: शान्ति: ॥
Note: The views expressed are supposed to be a perspective to stir up thoughts, discussions, and introspection. They may be viewed in the context of the Agniveer’s stand and not otherwise.
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Whats your view on Mahatma Ghandi?
Who cares about Mahatma Gandhi?
Thanks for informative and analytical article.
Dear Agniveer
do you know Mgandhi said fool to Swani Dayananad.
Thanks
Trariq
@Tariq,
What does MGandhi have to do with this post?
if it was MBuddha, still do u know that Swami Dayanand was poisoned 13 times?
What does it even matter, of who said what to whom?
Verbs matter more than nouns. I hope people get that from Vedas.
Lets learn what is needed to be learnt. Rest shall be rejected.
AUM,
Dhruv
A much needed article !
Mahatma Buddh popogate just one part (Moksha) of Vedic philosophy and left other parts (Dharma,Artha,and Kama).He was unhappy from anti Vedic practices done by Brahmans at that time.He came through adultred Vedas containing “Bali” in Yagnas,and Varna vyavastha by birth and hence criticise them.Buddhism was a revolt against these anti Vedic activities,not against Vedas.
Namaste Tariq
Mohandas was no prophet for us whom we have to believe blindly. Das was a politician and not a Vedic scholar or someone who could comment on the legendary works of Swami Dayanand.
So get it clear that neither praises nor criticism of any Das for our legends carries any weightage for us.
But if it carries weight for you then you should accept that Muslims are experts in stabbing and they are violent in nature because Das wrote it in his book/newspaper. Moreover Mohandas remained Hindu and never converted to Islam. So being follower of Mohandas, you should leave Islam.
BTW do you know what Ayatullah Khomeini has to say about Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Aisha etc?
@Tariq
Brother, are u follower of Gandhi Ji? Post your reply than I give you answer Gandhi Ji comments on Swami Dayanand . First tell me what you think about Gandhi Ji. I think you are very fan of him. What is your opinion regarding him?
“Kapila states in Sankhya..”
कपिल मुनि जी के नाम के साथ सम्मानजनक शब्द अवश्य लगाना चाहिए। ये अत्यन्त प्राचीन मुनि थे।
@Tariq
Brother, are u follower of Gandhi Ji? Post your reply than I give you answer Gandhi Ji comments on Swami Dayanand . First tell me what you think about Gandhi Ji. I think you are very fan of him. What is your opinion regarding him?
he is a follower of these kinda intelligent creatures.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCPipsWPBkk&feature=related
Namaste Brother roger
Great video! I remind once I was reading the great Veer Savarkar, in one of his books he has shared an interesting incident regarding the usage of telephone by Muslim Ummah! When the telephone was invented, everyone in the world welcomed this great technology except Muslims. The Ulema as usual had their own test for judging something halaal or haraam, i.e. Quran and Hadith. And since no such technology is discussed in Quran or Hadith, Ulema called this invention as FITNA OF SHAITAN 🙂 But later on when those hypocrites realized that they are loosing big time because of their stupidity, they came up with an idea! The idea was to check whether telephone is Halaal or Haraam for Muslims! And it was decided to recite Quranic verses from one end of telephone and if the verses are heard on the other end, it will be accepted that telephone is Halaal as per Allah’s wish 🙂
And when this test was successfully completed, Ulema declared that use of telephone is halaal because it passed the verses of Quran from one end to the other and thus Allah is in favor of this technology!
The comment of Veer Savarkar is really touching on this! He wrote that it was good that Quranic verses were chosen for this test! Because if the 14th chapter of Satyarth Prakash (in which Islam is analyzed and its lies are exposed thoroughly) by Swami Dayanand would have been chosen for this test, this technology would have remained FITNA OF SHAITAN for the idiots forever 🙁
Namaste vajra bro,
haha, sometimes they think too smart that i get suspicious if we belong to same species or not.
@ Roger ,
Awesome video brother , this shows how foolish these mullahs are and in which world they live in …
बसंत जी ! इसमें अग्निवीर का दोष नहीं आंग्लभाषा का है | अंग्रेजी में जी इत्यादि शब्दों का प्रयोग नहीं होता और न लगाने पर वहाँ
इसे अपमान जनक भी नहीं मना जाता |
हर भाषा की अपनी कुछ परिपाटी, पद्धति होती है |
सबसे पहले तो वज्र जी से अभयदान, अग्निवीर पर पुन: सवाल उठाने के लिये !!
सांख्य के सूत्र “समाधि सुषुप्ति मोक्षेषु ब्रह्मरूपता” का अर्थ at least during Sushupti (deep slumber), Samadhi (deep meditation) and Moksha (Salvation) soul gets an experience of Supreme bliss.
मुझे ठीक नहीं लगा |
सुषुप्ति में ईश्वर के आनन्द की अनुभूति नहीं होती क्योंकि वह तामसिक अवस्था होती है | किंतु गाढ़ निद्रा में अज्ञान के कारण दुख: अनुभूति नहीं होती, समाधि और मोक्ष में दुख: निवृति के साथ साथ आनन्द की उपलब्धि भी होती है, यह अन्तर है |
इस आपति के बाद एक शंका, वज्र जी स्यात् इस पर प्रसन्न हो !!
अग्निवीर जी ! आपने स्वामी दयानन्द के हवाले से लिखा संसार में सुख अधिक है | किंतु सांख्यकार के निम्न दो सूत्रों पर विचार करे |
कुत्रापि कोsपि सुखी न |
तदपि दुख:शबलमिति दु:खपक्षे निक्षिपन्ते विवेचका : || (अध्याय 6, सूत्र 7-8)
कहीं भी कोई भी सुखी नहीं है |
संसार में जो सुख उपलब्ध होता है वह दु:ख मिश्रित होने से विवेकी लोग उस सुख को भी दु:ख कोटि में ही मानते है |
और देखिये, योग-सूत्रकार महर्षि पतंजलि जी क्या कहते है
“परिणाम ताप संस्कार दु:खै: गुणवृति विरोधाच्च दु:खमेव सर्वम् विवेकिन:” (साधनपाद)
सांसारिक सुख में उपरोक्त चार प्रकार के दु:ख मिले होने से विवेकी के लिये ये सारा सांसारिक सुख दु:ख ही है |
अब आचार्य दयानन्द की बात मानें तो महर्षि कपिल और पतंजलि के अनुसार अविवेकी ठहरते है, जो कि सत्य होते हुए भी स्वयम् को स्वीकार करना मुझे तो कठिन है !!
चूंकि आपने लिखा है (If Agniveer were to pick the most inspiring quote from entire Vedic teachings it has ever come across, it would undoubtedly be this one.)
अत: आपसे इन वैदिक ऋषियों में संगति बैठाने की विनय है |
नमस्ते बहन,
कपिल मुनि के इस सूत्र का अर्थ हमने पंडित गंगाप्रसाद की पुस्तक “बुद्ध और दयानंद’ से लिया है. यहाँ यह अर्थ एक भिन्न सन्दर्भ में किया गया है.
वस्तुतः ईश्वर के आनंद की अनुभूति सदा होती है क्योंकि ईश्वर आनंदस्वरूप है एवं हमारे भीतर बहार सर्वत्र व्याप्त है. हाँ, ज्ञान के स्तर के अनुसार ऊपर नीचे हो सकता है. सुषुप्ति में सुख नहीं मिलता तो हम कभी यह नहीं कहते कि मैं सुखपूर्वक सोया. एक परेशान दुखी निराश मन को सुषुप्ति में किंचित सुख तो प्राप्त होता ही है क्योंकि जागृत अवस्था में ऐसा व्यक्ति मन को दुःख कि ओर ले जा रहा होता है. तभी डॉक्टर भी बहुत अधिक परेशान व्यक्ति को किसी प्रकार बेहोश करने का प्रयास करते हैं.
सार में ऐसा कभी नहीं होता कि सर्वव्यापक आनंदस्वरूप ईश्वर के नैसर्गिक सुख से हम पूर्णतः वंचित हों. एक निराश मन जो सब स्थान पर दुःख देख रहा है, वह भी कम से कम सुषुप्ति में मन के शांत होने से सुख अनुभव कर ही लेता है. इसीलिए उठकर हल्का महसूस करता है. हाँ समाधी और मुक्ति में इस सुख की विशेष वृद्धि होती है क्यों तब मन भी ईश्वर की ओर मुखरित होता है.
अतः यहाँ यह बात उस निराश व्यक्ति की तुलना में की गयी है जो सर्वत्र दुःख देखकर निराश हो रहा हो.
आपने जो संख्याकर एवं योग सूत्रकार के जो उद्धरण प्रस्तुत किये हैं वो भी पूर्णतः सही हैं. किन्तु यहाँ पात्र एक ज्ञानी व्यक्ति है जो यह समझ रहा है के पूर्ण सुख तो ईश्वर से ही प्राप्त हो सकता है. अतः वह ईश्वर प्राप्ति के लिए उन्नत कर्म करता है. जैसे कामधेनु का दूध पीने वाले को फिर बकरी का दूध नहीं भाता, वैसे ही जिस आत्मा ने उन्नत कर्मों के द्वारा ईश्वर के आनंद का किंचित भी अनुभव किया है, उसे फिर संसारी सुख नहीं भाते. यह सापेक्षिक बात है. अतः यह दशा विवेकी के लिए है. विवेकी वही है जिसने पूर्ण पुरुषार्थ के द्वारा उन्नत कर्म करके अपने स्तर को एक न्यूनतम ऊंचाई तक ला रखा हो.
ऐसा विवेकी संसार में दुःख देखकर दुःख से पलायन नहीं करता, किन्तु उत्तम कर्मो के द्वारा इस संसार के कण कण में छिपे ईश्वर से सम्बन्ध दृढ करता है.
अतः दोनों में कोई अंतर्विरोध नहीं है. एक बात पहली कक्षा के विद्यार्थी के लिए है एवं दूसरी आचार्य के लिए. अतः सुख, दुःख आदि की परिभाषा में भी यथोचित भेद है.
दर्शन के सूक्ष्म विषय को समझने की योग्यता उसी में है जिसने कठोर तप और पुरुषार्थ से शारीर और मन को मजबूत बनाया हो, जो बिना क्लांत हुए लम्बी दौड़ लगा सकता हो. इसीलिए स्वामी दयानंद भी वज्र पुरुष बने रहने के लिए अभ्यास करते थे. किन्तु आजकल बिना ऐसे तप के लोग दर्शन पर चिंतन करने लगते हैं और बिना संदर्भि समझे गलत अर्थ मन में बैठा लेते हैं. दर्शन विषय है साक्षात्कार का. मात्र चिंतन करने से दर्शन नहीं समझा जा सकता. उसके लिए पूर्ण पुरुषार्थ करके जीवन में उत्तम अनुभव प्राप्त करने होंगे.
हमारा सबसे निवेदन है की दर्शनों और अध्यात्म विद्या को सही रूप से समझने के लिए पहले घोर पुरुषार्थ करे, शरीर वज्र की तरह मजबूत बनाये, देश -जाति – मानवता की रक्षा के लिए सार्थक कर्मो में प्रवृत्त हों, मन को हीरक सा कठोर बनाये, और फिर ये विषय मन में चमक पाएंगे.
ये हमने अपने सर्वहित की दृष्टि से विनीत विचार रखें है. विचार मतभेद होने पर भी इसे अन्यथा न लेवें. हमारा उद्देश्य विचारो का उत्तेजन उत्पन्न करना था जो हमे राष्ट्र, धर्मं, जाति, समाज, मानवता, संसार आदि के लिए श्रेष्ठ कर्मो के लिए प्रेरित करे.
यदि हमारी वह दिशा ठीक है तो अन्य वाद-विवाद व्यर्थ है. सबको अपनी अपनी मेधा के द्वारा सत्य पर चिंतन करना चाहिए. क्योंकि अंततः ये गूढ़ विषय आत्मचिंतन के ही विषय हैं.
प्रबंधक
अग्निवीर
सबसे पहले तो आपके प्रेमपूर्ण उत्तर के लिये बहुत बहुत आभार !
अभी कुछ और स्पष्टीकरण की अपेक्षा है |
(i) ये जो आपने कहा ” वस्तुतः ईश्वर के आनंद की अनुभूति सदा होती है क्योंकि ईश्वर आनंदस्वरूप है एवं हमारे भीतर बहार सर्वत्र व्याप्त है. हाँ, ज्ञान के स्तर के अनुसार ऊपर नीचे हो सकता है ” इसमें मेरा कहना यह है कि ईश्वर और जीव में दूरी अविद्या के कारण है, अत: जो व्यक्ति न ईश्वर के स्वरूप को जानता, न ही मानता, और न ही कभी उस से आत्मा मन का सम्बन्ध जोड़ने का प्रयास करता उसे भी ईश्वरीय आनन्द की अनुभूति होवे यह समझ से परे है | क्योंकि सुख गुण प्रकृति के सत्व गुण में भी है (यहाँ सत्व के लिये गुण शब्द सांख्य के अनुसार है, न्याय और वैशेषिक के द्रव्य और गुण के अनुसार नहीं)
अत: जिसे आप निरन्तर ईश्वर के सुख की अनुभूति होना कहते हो मेरे विचार में वह सुखानुभूति प्रकृति के सत्व गुण के कारण होती है | यदि आप अपने कथन की पुष्टि स्वामी दयानन्द का या अन्य ऋषि का प्रमाण दे सके तो बड़ी कृपा होगी |
(ii) आप इसी निरन्तर ईश्वरीय सुखानुभूति के आधार पर सुषुप्ति में भी ईश्वरीय आनन्द का होना प्रतिपादित करते है | इसका कुछ समाधान तो पहले भाग में ही कह दिया गया है अब कुछ विशेष कहते है | वास्तव में गाढ़ निद्रा में कोई ईश्वरीय सुखानुभूति नहीं होती केवल दुख की निवृति को ही व्यक्ति सुख प्राप्ति कहता है |
यह बात आपके कथन ” निराश मन जो सब स्थान पर दुःख देख रहा है, वह भी कम से कम सुषुप्ति में मन के शांत होने से सुख अनुभव कर ही लेता है ” से भी पुष्ट होती है |
एक उदाहरण: आप कार से कार्यालय जा रहे है, मार्ग में दुर्घटना हो गयी (खुदा न करे खास्ता ऐसा कभी हो आपके साथ!) और आपके पैर में चोट लग गयी | कुछ दिनों के बाद समुचित चिकित्सा के बाद आप दुरूस्त हो गये | आपसे आपके मित्र ने पूछा कया हाल है ? तो आप क्या कहोगे, यही न कि अब बड़ा आराम है, सुख है | यहाँ कोई नया सुख आपको नहीं मिला जो पैर दुर्घटना से पहले ठीक था वो पुन: ठीक ही तो हुआ है | इसी तरह सुषुप्ति में भी मन की की चंचलता रूकने के कारण और सत्व गुण के उभार के कारण सुख मिलता है, ईश्वर के नैसर्गिक संसर्ग के कारण नहीं |
(iii) आपकी स्वामी दयानन्द और कपिल आदि के विषय में संगति से संतोष नहीं हुआ | “दुख से पलायन नहीं करता” शायद आप संसार से पलायन नहीं करता यह कहना चाहते हो क्योंकि दुख से तो छूटना ही चाहता है | जो आपने कहा ” अतः सुख, दुःख आदि की परिभाषा में भी यथोचित भेद है ”
उसमें आप परिभाषा भेद को प्रमाण सहित देवें तो बड़ी कृपा होगी | इससे विचार करने में बड़ी सुविधा होती | मेरे विचार में स्वामी दयानन्द और कपिल आदि, दोनो ही सांसारिक सुख के विषय में ही बात कर रहे है, यदि इनकी सांसारिक सुख सम्बन्धी परिभाषायें अलग तो कृपया प्रमाण सहित बतावें |
यह भी विचारणीय है कि स्वामी दयानन्द की बात पहली कक्षा के विद्यार्थी के लिये है और कपिल आदि ऋषियों की बात आचार्य के लिये | क्योंकि जो विवेकी है उसको प्रेरणा देने लिये तो योगसूत्रकार व सांख्यकार ने सूत्र नहीं लिखे, वो तो जो संसार में सुख देख रहा है उसे ही प्रेरित करने के लिये, वास्तविकता से परिचय कराने के लिये ही सूत्र रचे है | विवेकी व्यक्ति की तो स्थिति क्या होती है, उसका चिन्तन कैसा होता है उसका निरुपण किया गया है |
I think these are topics of introspection and it will be unreasonably too much to expect from Agniveer team that is engaged so much in producing quality content to spend time in such discussions.
This all seems like problem of nomenclature and nothing else. Nature does not have any quality of pain or pleasure. It is inert. The pleasure of Sattva is because in Sattva our mind is not deviated and towards knowledge. It is not that Sattva is source of happiness. Sattva only prepares conditions so that we experience natural pleasure of God better.
It is wrong to say that no one believes in God. In fact everyone believes in God. There is difference only in relative clarity of views. Belief in God is a natural property of all living beings. That is implicit. by knowledge, one tries to make this belief more clear. To deny God does not mean one does not believe in God. Denial means that the definition or concept of God known to him from world is not acceptable to one because of stage of knowledge or ignorance. Since God is only source of bliss, even slightest attraction towards seeking bliss means God is believed in.
Just as one cannot deny his own self, one cannot disbelieve in God. It is only that one refutes a particular concept of God in his mind.
SO happiness is like an equation H=f(x)-f(y) + z. f(x) is function of knowledge. f(y) is function of ignorance. Z is constant minimum happiness at all times due to grace of God.
When one is frustrated, H may be negative because f(x) is low, f(y) is high and hence effect of Z is not seen.
When one is in deep sleep, f(x), f(y) are almost zero and Z give a small positive happiness in H(Sushupti).
When one is in meditation, f(x) is high, f(y) is very low, Z is constant. So happiness is higher in H(Samadhi).
When one is in Mukti, f(y) is zero, f(x) is very high. So there is extreme happiness in H(Mukti).
Now one who knows that H(Mukti)> H(Samadhi) > H(Sushupti) and that H(COnscious life) varies due to interplay of three variables, he would smartly try to maximize f(x) and minimize f(y).
For him, relative to his goal of H(Mukti), there is misery everywhere. Because H(Conscious life) – H(Mukti) < 0 or negative meaning misery in relative sense.
Hope that clarifies.
Excellent Arya Veer
Amazing explanation. I think that is why mastery of mathematics and science is supposed to be essential to understand Vedas. Many people only study grammar and literature but have not mastered maths and science. That is why they are not able to understand these subtle topics which require high level of conceptualization and formulations.
There is one more ‘debunking Agniveer’ page opened on Facebook. I also saw a newsletter on email against Agniveer. We should cooperate to support Agniveer and not distract them.
Thanks a lot.
Raja
(i) आर्यवीर जी ! आपके इस कथन में क्या प्रमाण है कि जड़ मात्र होने से प्रकृति में सुख दुख गुण नहीं है ? प्रकृति सुख दुख अनुभव नहीं करती इसका तात्पर्य यह नहीं कि उसमें सुख दुख गुण नहीं है | मेरा कथन सांख्य दर्शन पर आधरित था वहाँ सत्व-रजस्-तमस् को सुख-दुख-मोहात्मक स्वरूप मना है | आपसे तनिक सांख्य के अवलोकन की विनय है | और भी, सत्व गुण सुख का साधन है और जीव उससे सम्बद्ध होकर सुख अनुभव करता है |
यदि आप सांख्य को प्रमाण न मानें तो आपका कथन भी तो प्रतिज्ञा मात्र है, उसकी सिद्धि में क्या प्रमाण है ?
(ii) ईश्वर विश्वास के संदर्भ में “विश्वास” की परिभाषा के लिये आर्य उद्देश्य रत्माला में आचार्य दयानन्द कृत परिभाषा देखें | मेरा कथन उस पर ही आधारित था | जो व्यक्ति किसी कर्मफल प्रदाता को नहीं मानता जिसकी दंड-व्यवस्था पुर्नजन्मों तक जाती हो तथा मोक्ष जैसी स्थिति को न माने उसको ही मैने ईश्वर-अविश्वासी कहा था | प्राकृतिक नियमों की सत्ता तो सभी स्वीकार करते है जिसे हम नियामक ईश्वर की क्रियामात्र कहते है | लोगो को न्यायकारी ईश्वर को स्वीकारने में ही सबसे बड़ी समस्या है |
(iii) सबसे पहले तो आपको इस सुख-समीकरण
” H=f(x)-f(y) + z” के इल्हाम पर शतश: बधाईयाँ !!!
चूंकि आपने लिखा ” f(x) is function of knowledge ” इससे यह निकला कि चर x से आप ज्ञान को दर्शा रहे है लेकिन यह स्पष्ट नहीं हुआ कि फलन f की range क्या है ?
मेरा अनुमान है आप शायद वेदना या अनुभूति कहते क्योंकि। अनुकूल अनुभूति सुख कहलाती जिसे आप positive value assign करते और प्रतिकूल अनुभूति को दुख जिसे आप negative value assign करते |
यदि मेरा अनुमान ठीक है तो आपकी समीकरण ठीक नहीं |
क्योंकि तब आप y एक स्वतंत्र चर न रहकर -x से ही दर्शया जाना चाहिये क्योंकि अज्ञान, ज्ञान का उल्टा है |
लेकिन फिर आपको चर x का domain पुन: बदलना पड़ेगा |
यह इल्हामी समीकरण मुझे कम समझ में आयी, इसे और गणितीय रूप से परिष्कृत करके समझायें |
(iv) अन्त में अग्नवीर जी से निवेदन ! यदि आप यह समझते हो कि मेरा यह विचार विनिमय आपके समय और उर्जा को नष्ट कर रहा है तो आगे से ऐसा कुछ भी न लिखने के लिये वचनबद्ध हूँ | “वादे-वादे जायते तत्वबोध:” इस वैदिक लोकोक्ति से प्रेरित ही यह संवाद था और कोई मेरा अन्यथा प्रयोजन नहीं |
चूंकि आर्यवीर जी के कथन को ” it will be unreasonably too much to expect from Agniveer team that is engaged so much in producing quality content to spend time in such discussions.” को अग्निवीर का भी रवैया मानने के लिये एक बार स्पष्ट उत्तर की अपेक्षा है |
Namaste Everyone,
It is good to see such discussions. As we had stated in conclusion of the article, our goal was to stir up thoughts, discussions and introspection.
We don’t promise to provide any answers because answers have to be found within. On a realm where even language fails to express the feelings. However we just wanted to help one ask the right questions. We are glad that we seem to be on somewhat right track.
We thus encourage all visitors to continue fruitful and insightful discussions.
We do have a view on the subject and that has been stated in article and previous comments. The doubts raised are also answerable as per those views. In fact address to these doubts form the foundation of our view. From whatever has been written the necessary answers can be deduced. However we do not have the luxury to indulge in more detailed discussions and explain the same at this point in time. Because that would require detailed discussions on a large number of topics to create the foundation.
Nonetheless we would encourage visitors to reasonably differ with our views fully or partially and extracting the right lessons out of the process of introspection. And if they reach a view that explains things better than our views, we would be keen to improve our own view.
Hopefully when our primary mission has reached a threshold level, we would have space to explore this aspect further through writings. May Ishwar inspire us to reach there soon.
Admin
Agniveer
Sudha JI
और भी, सत्व गुण सुख का साधन है और जीव उससे सम्बद्ध होकर सुख अनुभव करता है |
agar yeh sach hota to itne saare jeev tamsic cheezo ki ore na bhaagte na hi unme “sukh” ki anoobhooti prapt karte
यदि आप सांख्य को प्रमाण न मानें तो आपका कथन भी तो प्रतिज्ञा मात्र है, उसकी सिद्धि में क्या प्रमाण है ?
aur yadi aap sankhya ko praman maane to Ishwar ke hone ka to sawaal hi nahi paida hota..ishwar aur sankhya saath saath nahi reh sakte 🙂
kripaya is virodhabhaas ko mitane ka kasht karein
नमस्ते बहन सुधा
————अत: जिसे आप निरन्तर ईश्वर के सुख की अनुभूति होना कहते हो मेरे विचार में वह सुखानुभूति प्रकृति के सत्व गुण के कारण होती है |————-
१. परोपकारी व्यक्ति के परोपकार करते समय मिलने वाला सुख आपकी दृष्टि में क्या प्रकृति के गुण के कारण है?
२. जब ऋषि दयानंद परोपकार वा नीच कर्म करते समय भीतर से आने वाली उल्लास अथवा भय, शंका, लज्जा को ईश्वर की प्रेरणा मानते हैं तो स्पष्ट ही है कि यह उल्लास ईश्वर की ओर से है अथवा ईश्वर के आनंद का भी एक भाग इसमें सदैव विद्यमान रहता है.
आपके शेष लेख पर मुझे कोई आपत्ति नहीं है. बस एक सुझाव है कि हर बात में शब्द प्रमाण ढूँढने/मांगने के स्थान पर तर्क व बुद्धि के द्वारा उनका निश्चय किया जाए. सुख दुःख के पैमाने देश, काल, परिस्थिति और व्यक्ति के बदलने से बदलते रहते हैं. इसमें किसी शब्द प्रमाण की आवश्यकता नहीं है. किसी मल्ल को जितना व्यायाम सुख देता है उतना व्यायाम किसी क्षीण काय के लिए महा दुःख सिद्ध होगा.
आशा है कि आप विधर्मियों के वेद विरुद्ध दुष्चक्र को प्राथमिकता देते हुए पहले उसको समाप्त करने का प्रयास करेंगी और तत्पश्चात हम दर्शन के गूढ़ विषयों पर चिंतन कर सकते हैं.
Namaste Sudha JI
ek anurodh meri ore se bhi
kripyaya ye batein ki jaise apne “satva” guna sankhya ke anusaar liya hai kya “Eshawar” bhi usi ke anusaar liya hai ? 🙂
Dhanywad
Indian Agnostic महोदय ! नमस्ते |
(i) पहली चीज तो यह समझने कि है कोई भी जड़ वस्तु इस संसार में पूर्णरूप से न तो तामसिक है न राजसिक और न ही केवल सत्व से बनी है | हर पदार्थ में तीनो गुण मिले रहते है | जिसमें जिस गुण की प्रधानता होती है औपचारिक रूप से उसे ही सात्विक राजसिक और तामसिक कह दिया अजाता है |
अत: जो लोग आपके कथनानुसार तामसिक चीजो से सुख प्राप्त करते है वस उसमें व्याप्त सत्व गुण के कारण होता है | और सुखानुभूति में संस्कार, अविद्या आदि भी कारण होते है |
(ii) आपके इस कथन से कि ” सांख्य और ईश्वर साथ साथ नहीं रह सकते ” मेरा अनुमान है कि आप आचार्य शंकर के अध्येता है क्योंकि उन्हीं ने अपने ब्रह्मसूत्र भाष्य में सांख्य को निरीश्वरवादी मान अपना प्रधान मल्ल घोषित किया है | और पदे पदे अपने भाष्य में खंड़न किया है | इसके समाधान के लिये आपसे आचार्य उदयवीर शास्त्री कृत ग्रंथ-त्रयी: सांख्य दर्शन भाष्य, सांख्य सिद्धांत और सांख्य दर्शन का इतिहास, इन का अवलोकन करने की विनय है |
ये तीनो पुस्तकें vedicbooks से ली जा सकती है |
सांख्य के निरीश्वरवादी होने का खंड़न आचार्य दयानन्द के सत्यार्थ प्रकाश के सातवें समुल्लास भी में पढ़े | पुन: मेरा पिष्टपेषण करने का मन नहीं है |
(iii) अब आपके उस प्रश्न का उत्तर कि क्या मैंने ईश्वर का भी सांख्य के अनुसार ही माना है ? जी हाँ ! बिल्कुल उसके अनुसार ही माना है | जरा निम्न सूत्रों पर गौर फरमायें |
स हि सर्ववित् सर्वकर्ता |
वह सर्वज्ञ और सब जगत का रचयिता है |
ईदृशेश्वरसिद्धि : सिद्धा || ( अध्याय 3, सूत्र 56-57)
इस प्रकार के ईश्वर की सिद्धि इस शास्त्र में दृढ़ता से की गयी है |
और सांख्य के पाँचवे अध्याय के सूत्र 2 से 9 तक देखने की कृपा करे, जिसमें ईश्वर को कर्मफल प्रदाता और नित्यमुक्त होने का प्रतिपादन किया गया है |
अत: कपिल मुनि सर्वज्ञ, सृष्टिकर्ता, कर्मफलदाता और नित्यमुक्त ईश्वर को मानते है जो मुझे भी स्वीकार है |
(iv) और अन्त में आपसे यही निवेदन है कि सांख्य के विषय और जानने के लिये वो तीन ग्रंथ अवश्य पढ़े |
वज्र जी ! नमस्ते |
(i) पहले प्रश्न के उत्तर में इतना ही कहना है कि इस सम्भावना से इंकार नहीं किया जा सकता कि परोपकार के कार्य ऐसे होते है जो कि सत्व गुण को उभारने का काम करते है और उनसे सुख मिलता है | इसमें ईश्वर की तरफ से कितना आनन्द मिलता या नहीं मिलता इसके विषय में निश्चित रूप से नहीं कहा जा सकता |
(ii) आपका दूसरा बिंदु ही पहले प्रश्न का आधार है | इस विषय में आपके सुझावानुसार अपनी बुद्धि और तर्क का प्रयोग करते हुए यही कहना है कि यह कोई नियम नहीं है कि बुरे काम करने में भय-शंका- लज्जा और अच्छे काम करने में अभय-नि:शंकता-आनन्दोत्साह हमेशा होता ही है | उदाहरण के लिये एक आतंकवादी जो 72 हूरों के ख्वाब लिये अल्लाह के दीन के लिये, काफिरों को उड़ाने के लिये, आत्मघाती बम से खुद को उड़ा लेता है | और वह उस समय बड़ी प्रसन्नता उत्साह अनुभव करता है जैसे कि अल्ला-ताला ही उसका हाथ पकड़ कर यह काम करवा रहा है |
यहाँ उसके अभय-नि:शंकता-आनन्दोत्साह का कारण उसकी मूर्खतपूर्ण मान्यता है जिस पर उसका अटल विश्वास है | यदि आप मुझसे पूछे कि भला मैंने कैसे जाना कि उसके दिल में लेशमात्र भी
भय-शंका- लज्जा नहीं है तो यही प्रश्न आपसे भी पूछा जा सकता है आपके जानने का साधन क्या है ?
स्वामी दयानन्द का कथन मेरी दृष्टि में पूर्ण रूप से केवल परिपक्व असम्प्रज्ञात समाधि सिद्ध व्यक्ति पर ही लागू होता है जो उस सर्वज्ञ, सर्वप्रेरक देव से सीधे प्रेरणा प्राप्त करता है |
उससे निचले स्तर के व्यक्तियों के भय-शंका-लज्जा का कारण अपनी अज्ञानता, बुरे संस्कार, सामाजिक भय आदि होते है जो कि कभी कभी अच्छे कार्यो को करते हुए भी होते रहते है |
(iii) सुख दुख के विषय में आपकी बात से सहमत होते हुए भी यह कहना है कि कुछ चीजें जीवमात्र के लिये सुखदायक होती है और कुछ सबके लिये दुखदायक |
उदाहरण के लिये : किसी को भी जोर से डंडा मारो वह सबके लिये दुख रूप ही है | यदि किसी की सहनशक्ति ज्यादा है तो वेदना कम होगी लेकिन जो अनुभूति है वह प्रतिकूल ही होगी |
और भी, जब मतभेद का आधार ही शब्द प्रमाण हो तो उसके निराकरण और संगति के लिये शब्द-प्रमाण की मांग अनुचित तो नहीं है | मेरा कोई ऐसा आग्रह नहीं कि आप प्रमाण देवें ही सही नहीं तो आपकी बात का कोई मूल्य ही नहीं |
(iv) अब रही आपकी मुझसे आशा की बात ! तो यथाशक्ति, यथारूचि प्रयासरत हूँ |
Dear Sister Sudha,
I am astound by your brilliance. Looks like the era of Gargi and Maitreyi is back. Looks like Agniveer’s series on Women in action. I hope you would inspire us all like this in future.
Please also motivate more women to join and lead these intellectual discussions. This is the greatest success of Agniveer movement.
Its not time to debate but be delighted for having blessings of a scholarly woman.
Here is what Agniveer wrote in Women – Foundation of knowledge:
Yajurveda 34.40: The way dawn brings happiness among human beings, scholarly woman should bring happiness by educating girls.
Yajurveda 20.85: Scholarly woman should ensure that she educates other women and makes them also scholars.
Yajurveda 20.84: The scholarly woman purifies our lives with her intellect. Through her actions, she purifies our actions. Through her knowledge and action, she promotes virtue and efficient management of society.
Yajurveda 20.85: Scholarly woman inspires us towards knowledge. She promotes conduct of noble acts in society.
Yajurveda 20.86: Scholarly woman rushes an exhilaration within us that comes only through knowledge. She enlightens our knowledge, applications and actions.
Rigveda 1.164.49: O scholarly woman, your knowledge provides us peace and bliss. You lead us to inculcate noble virtues. You provide us prosperity through your knowledge. May we obey your inspiration that you provide as a mother. A scholarly woman is mother of entire society.
Rigveda 2.41.16: O provider of great knowledge, O my mother through the nourishment of knowledge that you have provided, our life is scattered without you. Please provide us direction.
Rigveda 2.41.17: A scholarly woman, the entire life of society depends upon you. You provide us the right knowledge. May you bring knowledge to all segments of society.
Rigveda 6.49.7: O scholarly woman, you purify our character. You have noble characteristics. You conduct noble actions. You have noble habits. We bow to your greatness that provides bliss to all.
Rigveda 6.61.2: O scholarly woman, the way a river breaks away mightiest of hills and rocks, the scholarly woman destroys myths and hypes through her intellect alone. May we bow to women through our polite words and noble actions.
Rigveda 6.61.3: O scholarly woman, destroy the evil inside us through your knowledge and character. Gift us with knowledge of Vedas. O performer of noble actions, you provide us stream of knowledge in same manner as a river provides stream of water.
Rigveda 7.96.3: O scholarly noble woman brings only happiness in society. She makes us knowledgeable and alert. She guides us like the mantras in Yajna and teaches us use of everything in world.
Rigveda 10.17.7: Those who desire the society to become noble and powerful, they respect woman and please her. Those who desire virtues respect woman and please her. Those who respect woman obtain bliss, knowledge and happiness.
Atharvaveda 7.57.1: Whenever I am hurt by meanness of world or misunderstanding with others, a scholarly woman heals my wounds.
O scholarly woman, I surrender to your intellect. Please continue to enlighten us all and create leadership of more intellectual women. Thy are the true motherly force.
Raja
Indeed Raja, you have put that perfectly.
We are extremely pleased to see a scholarly woman discussing topics of Vedas and Darshan. We request Sudhaji to inspire more and more sisters to join discussions here and share their intellectual insights.
When we will have around 50% participation from women in these discussions, know that the time of rapid transformation has arrived!
Dhanyavad
Admin
Of course, practitioners of the religion of peace slaughtered Buddhists also. Here is one of the countless samples. Can one Muslim come forward and say: “I hang my head in shame because of the barbarity of my religion”? 🙁
Origin of the name of Indian state Bihar: The sign of Islamic Barbarism everywhere
Medieval writer Minhaj al-Siraj records in the Tabakat-i-Nasiri that in 1198 AD Bakhtiyar Khalji committed a massacre in a town now known as Sharif (about 70 km away from Bodh Gaya).[30] Minhaj writes that the inhabitants were 100,000 Brahmins with shaven heads and all of them were killed. Later, Bakhtiyar learned that the town was a college, and the word for ‘college’ is bihar. Perhaps from this destruction came about the current usage of the word ‘Vihar’.
http://hindurevolution.blogspot.com/2011/04/origin-of-name-of-indian-state-bihar.html
All religions take care
to silence or to execute
those who question
them (and I choose to
regard this recurrent
tendency as a sign of
their weakness rather
than their strength). It
has, however, been
some time since
Judaism and
Christianity resorted
openly to torture and
censorship. Not only did
Islam begin by
condemning all doubters
to eternal fire, but it
still claims the right to
do so in almost all of its
dominions, and still
preaches that these
same dominions can
and must be extended
by war. There has never
been an attempt in any
age to challenge or even
investigate the claims
of Islam that has not
been met with
extremely harsh and
swift repression.
Provisionally, then, one
is entitled to conclude
that the apparent unity
and confidence of the
faith is a mask for a
very deep and probably
justifiable insecurity.
That there are and
always have been
sanguinary feuds
between different
schools of Islam,
resulting in strictly
inter-Muslim
accusations of heresy
and profanity and in
terrible acts of
violence, naturally goes
without saying.
There is some
question as to whether
Islam is a separate
religion at all. It initially
fulfilled a need among
Arabs for a distinctive
or special creed, and is
forever identified with
their language and their
impressive later
conquests, which, while
not as striking as those
of the young Alexander
of Macedonia, certainly
conveyed an idea of
being backed by a divine
will until they petered
out at the fringes of
the Balkans and the
Mediterranean. But
Islam when examined is
not much more than a
rather obvious and ill-
arranged set of
plagiarisms, helping
itself from earlier
books and traditions as
occasion appeared to
require. Thus, far from
being “born in the clear
light of history,” as
Ernest Renan so
generously phrased it,
Islam in its origins is
just as shady and
approximate as those
from which it took its
borrowings. It makes
immense claims for
itself, invokes
prostrate submission
or “surrender” as a
maxim to its adherents,
and demands deference
and respect from
nonbelievers into the
bargain. There is nothing
—absolutely nothing —
in its teachings that can
even begin to justify
such arrogance and
presumption.
@mark
+1
All religions take care to silence or to execute those who question them
That indeed has been the problem with religions. Dharmic religions are (I would like to think) probably significantly less guilty of this crime against humanity. Plus they *actually* contain great spiritual/philosophical insights.
No religious belief system can form the basis of killing another human being 🙁
PS: What is with your comments? They appear weird in my browser.
Check vedic religions like buddhism,sikkhism,jainism,hinduism…u will understand the beauty in it.
Its got no torture.
True. While there have been debates and discussions among different schools of thoughts for centuries, it was all based on mutual respect and brotherhood. The culture here knew how to differ without hatred. Be in any ism – Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism etc – the first and foremost necessity for Dharma was always Ahimsa. Second was Satya. That is why we have such a vast treasure of literature and philosophy.
It is only after the Semitic eruption of blindness in name of religion that brutality became prominent.
Agniveer, I found an article refutting agnivesh.
http://www.mediaclubofindia.com/forum/topics/4335940:Topic:140792?commentId=4335940%3AComment%3A141060
Hope it will help all.
Why Agniveer is removing my comments I gace proof of Gandhi saying bad to dayanand
@Mtariq
First tell me do you believe in Gandhi Ji? What do you think about Gandhi Ji. If we know your views on Gandhi ji Ideology, then I can give you answer in a better way. If you are a true Muslim do not run away from here and do debate.
Why are you so paranoid about it? Your comment is already existing and there are several replies to that as well. But who cares what Gandhi said? Zakir Naik also says bad to all non-Muslims.
Improve your spelling and grammar by the way or your comments may be caught by spam filters in any internet site.
“तीव्र वैराग्यानामासन्न ।
=ऊँचे वैराग्य वालों की जल्दी समाधि लग जाती है” इसका क्या अर्थ है?
Namaste Jijyasu
Swayam hi arth dekar fir poochh bhi rahe ho 🙂
वैराग्यात्प्रक्रितिलय:
:-S मैं कुछ महीनों से अपने कच्चे दिमाग से वैराग्य और समाधि पर प्रयोग(Practical) कर रहा था। बहुत खतरनाक प्रयोग था। बहुत से लोगों के चित्त के अन्दर घुसकर प्रयोग किया। विशेषकर राम बहादुर बोमजोन नामक एक तिब्बती बालक के अन्दर। NEVER try this at home :'(
Namaste Jijyasu
Moorkhta aur Vairagya ek hi vastu ka naam nahi hai shriman
Eeshvar sabko sadbuddhi de
Bhai Tumne ye Paryog kaise kiya.
I had few misconception/myths about Samadhi.
Dr. Harish Arya: How one can
control his respiration and can
fly with the help of yoga?
Swami Ramswarup: I think the
reply to this question has been
already given long time ago. No
doubt, a yogi can fly but the task
is too difficult to describe. I mean
tosay contact with an
experienced Yogi and hard
practice of Ashtang Yoga, as
mentioned in Vedas, under
acharya.s advice is necessary.
When the aspirant, as a result of
hard practice of ashtang Yoga,
attains Dharmamegh Samadhi,
then he becomes able to fly. The
achievement of the said Samadhi
can take one birth.s time, based
on regular hard practice and
becoming completely ascetic or
can take two, three or five or
more births, please. So, one
must only worship God faithfully
and selflessly.= http://www.vedmandir.com/content/questions-answers-november-2008
Can anyone give me clarification?
Also the matter of image being
very clear to the devotee when it
speaks to him in his own
language of devotion, forces a
learned man to say that the said
speech between his mind and
soul is worldly speech and even
destructible whereas when a Yogi
realizesGod, he is completely
unable to speak, hear, see,
smell, eat, think etc. In this
connection, the description of
Yog shastra sutra 4/30,31, 32
pertaining to Dharmamegh
Samadhi refers.
Dear Jijyasuji
This is the question which stroke to my mind also.One shouls think about it.Well!Presenting the following equation to a man standing on the ground:
Gravitational force=contact force due t ot he ground
So,in order to move upward you need to have positive force in the upward direction.This you can achieve by reducing your weight equal to zero but then contact force is also equal to zero.Or using some rocket launcher.But you require a net force in the upwar ddirection.
Achieving Samadhi means chintan of paramatma.God cannot give you anything without work.So how can the fruit of Samadhi be flying huhuhu
When somebody beats me then I feel pain.The soul being separate from mind should not be hurt but mind should be hurt.But I see that I am hurted.So please tell me how is this happening?
I think that pain is entering inside the soul by some mechanism.But soul has to be different from the mind.Why?How can a stone talk,have feelings?Have seen a stone talking?I think medical science does not have answers to questions like this.They should understand that soul has to be different from mind.Because a stone cannot weep,talk,laugh.Feelings are not of mind but of soul.
do vedas believe in mukti of a soul?
Yes,,,Vedas do believe in Mukti of soul
I just wonder why you great agniveers do not expose the fact that all the budhdhist were killed like rats in India under Hindu Rulers. Can you deny the testimony that the country of birth for Budhdhism has only 0.77% of the population as Budhdhists. Where did the remaining go?
@Mohammed:
all the budhdhist were killed like rats in India under Hindu Rulers.
I would like evidence of this. If it is *indeed* true, then it is surely condemnable. Killing in the name of religion is wrong – just like killing an apostate. Would you agree?
That being said, I personally do not know a lot about Buddhist theology. I *think* Buddhism may have held sway in India (and Sri Lanka and Pakistan and Afghanistan where your friends Taliban destroyed the Buddha’s statue after performing Friday Namaz…remember that episode?) but eventually faded away. There are many theories surrounding this:
(1)Buddhism did not have the completeness that Hinduism had in terms of philosophy (as Agniveer’s article states).
(2)Buddhism arose as a revolt against the ritualism that had gained ground amongst Hindu society. Hindu philosophers (such as Adi Shankara) gave an interpretation to Vedantic philosophy to specifically relegate ritualism and reassert the importance of Jnana (knowledge) of Brahman. Once this was done, it was probably natural that Indians returned back to their Vedic roots (just as we hope ALL present day Indians too would).
(3)Until the appearance of Mohammedens on the scene (who specialized in killing the opposing camp as a means of convincing themselves and others that they possess a better theology), there was no place for killing/converting the non-believer. Hindu philosophers engaged in *intellectual debates* and convince others of their POV.
I can proclaim without a tinge of Taqqiya in my heart that killing a fellow human-being because he/she doesnt *believe* in the same stuff that I do is ABSOLUTELY WRONG AND A GOD THAT DECREES THAT VIA A HOLY BOOK IS ALSO WRONG. Can you do the same and be a productive part of 21st century human civilization?
>>budhdhist were killed like rats in India under Hindu Rulers.
Shankarachary defeated budhism and the religion went down because of non patronage of kings. I guess agniveer does not deny the existance of casteism and violence of hindu kings in name of religion.
However if large scale violence was there and if hinduism justifies the killings then there would have been many books from budhists which indicate the same.
But in violence whether in the past or in present none matches to abrahamic religions. perfect example is the hindu population of bangladesh. 22% to 9%.
Thanks for your peacful religion.
@Mohammed
Why do you always curse agniveer. Do not worry everything will be exposed but first priority to expose the dual standard of Muslim, Allah of Kuran who has shape & sits on throne on seventh sky, Idol worship by Muslim, Duplicate Mohamad who sexed with a child, Grave worship, truth of miracle stories contain in Hindu & muslim society. Our aim to establish a Vedic soceity who devoid of Idol worship like bowing head before stone building. Why do not you join hands with Agniveer?
Dear Truth Seeker,
I am really touched with your reply! You have some good ideas; but I dout the the intentions very much? I do not agree with many of your ideas but I do agree atleast with your noble cause of eliminating Idol worship which we muslims are trying to teach non-muslims for 1400+ years. Why don’t you all agniveer demolish atleast one temple to prove your authenticity in the near future. OK, I know, your answer is that you guys are not like muslims who are all terrorists but you are very peaceful religion. However, I fail to understand when RSS and it’s subsidiary, BJP was arousing lakhs and lakhs of hindus for years together to demolish Babri Masjid and establish a Grand Ram temple, that time how you people forgot your noble cause and looked the other way rather than stopping the establishment of the the biggest monuments for idol worship in India? Could you please let me know what did you do to something happening in front of your eyes for years together which is antithesis to you? And the aftermath, when thousands of innocent muslims were buchered by the followers of so called peaceful religion ‘Hinduism’, that time how many of you came forward to propogate the peace?
@Mohammed
Both Hindu & Muslim are Idol worshiper. Both have their excuses. But excuses means something have wrong in realty. All these practice in society like Idol worship, grave worship, going to particular place like Kaba, etc. are due to ignorance. To remove the ignorance first we need to spread Vedas. As Vedic knowledge will be established in society like in ancient time, all these practices will be stopped automatically. We need to spread knowledge in society for this. I think for this it is also compulsory for the people like Agniveer to tackle with corrupted & man made books like Kuran or Puran etc. Which are full of nonsense teaching like God completed the universe in six days than sit on his throne as Kuran says & other miracle stories. And it is also compulsory to tackle with people like jakir Naik who says God reside more in kaba than other places. According to Veda God is omnipresent he reside everywhere. & everyone has to face result of karma & souls are not created by God. For this we can not believe on Kuran teaching which prove God has shape & reside in particular place like kaba. Veda are devoid of such mis-conception. There are my many friends who were Idol worshiper, going to particular place for worship. But I never pressurize them to stop these practices. I always debate with them to make understand to them through logics, & It is only Veda which are devoid of superstitions, rituals, based on reasons, logics. Hindu looks the Muslim with doubt &have hate for them only reasons for this they know how Muslim terrorist like Gori, Gajni came in their country, made looting, raping etc. & it is people like Jakir Naik who lives in India but supporter of Duplicate Mohamad, terrorism & supporter of bloody Arabs. If you are true believer of God think with logics, reason and do not believe in any anything like Kuran, Veda, Puran, Mohamad without logics. God has given us mind & he inspired us always to find out the truth. God is unchangeable because he never need to change because he is perfect. Only imperfect changes according to situation. Veda is first and last teaching of God. & I am saying so because I have put knowledge of Vedas on logical test, never believed blindly. & If you find anything wrong in Veda put here .
Well, I can keep on arguing but it will be futile if yoor presumtions are misplaced. Your very first sentence “Both Hindu & Muslim are Idol worshiper” is wrong. Muslims DO NOT pray to any idol. Show me any mosque in any country where muslims pray to idols. Your second presumption that Quran is manmade whereas Vedas are divine, is again unpalatable. What proof you have? Islam is just 1400 years old and has a recorded history and we can see all the places in front of our eyes where Mohammed (PBUH) lived all his life, his janmabhumi and karmabhumi. Wheeras for Vedas, I do not know if they are man made are not. They have no recorded history.
Further, your claim that Dr. Jakir Naik said that God resides in Kaba than other places is again false. Muslims go for Hajj and Umrah to visit Makka and Madina to see the place of origin of their religion. They do not worship any building. Kaba has no idol, nothing. It is just a landmark to realize the people that this is the place where prophet Ibrahim left his wife and infant son all alone without any water and food to fulfill God’s command and God rewarded that place to be the holiest of all lands. Millions of muslims come here to see the birh place of their religion and to understand the true meaning of ‘submission to the will of Allah (= Islam).
Mohammed
1. This one for Muslims are idolaters
http://agniveer.com/1685/kaba-or-idol-worship/
2. This one for Quran is man made
http://agniveer.com/3118/miracle-islam/
@ Mohmmed
You bow head before a plane stone & other have given a shape to his stone. But I see both are stone. I am veda follower I will never do such nonsense activity. And you are arguing with me that you are not Idol worshipper. But I am watching you that you have bowed head before a stone which has a shape I can measure that stone in width & Hight. That means it is Idol worship.
@Mohmmed
You have said
Islam is just 1400 years old and has a recorded history and we can see all the places in front of our eyes where Mohammed (PBUH) lived all his life, his janmabhumi and karmabhumi. Wheeras for Vedas, I do not know if they are man made are not. They have no recorded history.
Comments:
That means you agree Islam & Kuran is just fourteen years old. For Idol worship & Miracle click the link Vajra have given. Read article attentively.
@Mohmmed
And if anything which is Karor of years old. That does not means it is bad. God teaching (Veda) always applicable as law of gravitation applicable.
Law of gravitation, though existed since the origin of the earth, but was explained to humans by Newton in 1687 AD, i.e in the recorded history of human beings. Exactly same way, Islam existed since the origin of the earth, but was explained to human beings in 1400 years back by Mohammed (PBUH).
Back in crore of years, there was no language invented, forget about invention of writing. How then vedas, if to be believed that these are world of god, are preserved in the original form till date? How??
@ Mohammed
————
Back in crore of years, there was no language invented, forget about invention of writing. How then vedas, if to be believed that these are world of god, are preserved in the original form till date? How??
————
Dude – Wake up. Apply for a school. Sanskrit evolved as a language when human race started evolving. You can check any # of proofs u want. Sanskrit was used to write Vedas, unfortunately after giving rise to so many languages this language is growing extinct and people are finding it difficult to read Vedas.
Regarding gravitation – glad that u accepted Newton invented it. I have read so many Islamic scholars attribute all discoveries to Quran on this site that I have lost faith in the intellect of this race. You restored it back partially.
Veda also called Shruti. that means knowledge which is achieved by listening. That is why in ancient time the people who having good intellectual are consider eligible of Vedic Knowledge.And scholar of Veda called Brahiman.Who knows the knowledge of Brahm(God, Creator).
As law of gravitation never lost as knowledge of Veda god given never will never lost.
@Mohammed
What different from Veda Allah disclose in Kuran. Can you give list few of them.
@TruthSeeker
Dear,
I said 1400, not fourteen? Is is typo or intentional??
Well, circumventing the question is not intelligence but politics. I asked, what proof you have that vedas are God’s words and are intact in the same form till today as was said by God, if ever.
By saying that Quran is manmade will not prove that Vedas are God’s words.
were hindus so fanatic as my dear bro. You r saying then you people were not able to post comments like this , so sinical u r. And again in that case not a single religion except hinduism would have existed in india .
were hindus so fanatic as u r saying my bro. Then surely i can say u people were not able to post comments like this and there would have been no religion except hhnduism . We belief in coexistence.
@ truthseeker,
From your reply, I could realize that you really feel so sad when you see muslims bowing heads before a stone building (which is 3 to 4 thousand kilometers away from India). But looks like nothing happens to your feelings when all your brothers and sisters do any sort of thing in front of all sort of idols, the idols which are at your hands’ reach. What a misplaced priority? Why don’t you clean your house first and then look for other’s house? Or, the hidden priorities or different than what you pretend?
@Mohammed
Both Hindu & Muslim are Idol worshiper. Both have their excuses. But excuses means something have wrong in realty. All these practice in society like Idol worship, grave worship, going to particular place like Kaba, etc. are due to ignorance. To remove the ignorance first we need to spread Vedas. As Vedic knowledge will be established in society like in ancient time, all these practices will be stopped automatically. We need to spread knowledge in society for this. I think for this it is also compulsory for the people like Agniveer to tackle with corrupted & man made books like Kuran or Puran etc. Which are full of nonsense teaching like God completed the universe in six days than sit on his throne as Kuran says & other miracle stories. And it is also compulsory to tackle with people like jakir Naik who says God reside more in kaba than other places. According to Veda God is omnipresent he reside everywhere. & everyone has to face result of karma & souls are not created by God. For this we can not believe on Kuran teaching which prove God has shape & reside in particular place like kaba. Veda are devoid of such mis-conception. There are my many friends who were Idol worshiper, going to particular place for worship. But I never pressurize them to stop these practices. I always debate with them to make understand to them through logics, & It is only Veda which are devoid of superstitions, rituals, based on reasons, logics. Hindu looks the Muslim with doubt &have hate for them only reasons for this they know how Muslim terrorist like Gori, Gajni came in their country, made looting, raping etc. & it is people like Jakir Naik who lives in India but supporter of Duplicate Mohamad, terrorism & supporter of bloody Arabs. If you are true believer of God think with logics, reason and do not believe in any anything like Kuran, Veda, Puran, Mohamad without logics. God has given us mind & he inspired us always to find out the truth. God is unchangeable because he never need to change because he is perfect. Only imperfect changes according to situation. Veda is first and last teaching of God. & I am saying so because I have put knowledge of Vedas on logical test, never believed blindly. & If you find anything wrong in Veda put here .
@ Mohammed
I guess it is because of these sins that Muslim invaders committed that there is a saying “sau chuhe khaakar billi haj ko chali”.
Please trace your ancestors – they would surely be Hindus/Buddhists.
Namaste ,,PAMHO,,,Actually denying of IDOL worship is actually wrong on both sides.If worship of IDOL helps people to purify their senses on gross level and purify their intelligence whats wrong in worshipping them.So an open minded approach should be kept regarding this.This will help all of us to come together and live happily in this world……
@mohammad
The same way you don’t need to look in others house and clean your own house with bloods of poor animals and Humans which you all term kafirs ….
See all drawbacks and demerits you guys have and then come here to point others ……..
Mohammed
—————Can you deny the testimony that the country of birth for Budhdhism has only 0.77% of the population as Budhdhists. Where did the remaining go?————
Do you know today’s Afganistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kashmir were 100% Hindu+Buddhist some 1300 years ago but now hardly 1% left there? What happened to them?
History tells what happened to the Buddhists of India. Islamic ghazis slaughtered and converted the people in Buddhist dominated regions which were predominantly today’s Afganistan and west Sindh area.
Just imagine when the Talibaan and Al Qaida of Afganistan could not tolerate Bamiyan Buddha statues in 21st century, how would the barbaric butchers 1000 years back tolerate the Kafir idolaters?
Imagine I attack your home, kill everyone or convert them, abduct the women and children. And then I start shouting that Mohammed was responsible for the cleansing of his family because it was he who was head of the family. And I start asking Mohammed, why was his family lost? This is the same what you are doing. Be ashamed of this stupidity. Differentiate b/w yourself and invaders. You are nothing more than slaves to Arabs because
a. Non-Arab man cannot marry Arab women but Arab men can marry Indian Muslim women
b. Non-Arab cannot ever become head of Muslim Ummah. You need to be Arab for this.
c. Non-Arab cannot be head or incharge of Kaba. You need to be Arab for this.
d. Non-Arabs will be called Mawali (loafer) by arabs
Rediscover your identity, come back home.
@Vajra
Brother Vajra this Mohmmed is a pig. He has no shame. & he feels proud to be son Rapist, Looters, like Gori, Gajani. It is not the fault of him. He has developed the tendency of pig. Now it is his sanskar.
Namaste Brother Mohammed
I apologize on behalf of Brother truthseeker for his abusive language.
Brother truthseeker
Please never use such language against anybody. All Muslims are our own Brothers and Sisters and we have to get them back in their original home, Vedas. So talk in decent manner. Lets love the people and destroy the evil inside those through our logic and reasoning.
Thanks
@bro vajra
appreciate your thinking, but…
do you really think these madarsa trained brains understand logic at all.
they are giving guns and bombs to a 14 year kid, how will he understand all these things?
i believe you also know what kinda guys were involved in times square, london bombing. professionals, highly skilled….
gone are the days when they use to say that only poor, illiterate muslims do all these acts.
we are literally at war brother.
@roger:
we are literally at war brother.
With this I agree. 🙁 There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. By definition, a Muslim is an extremist. You dont have to take my word for it. Ex-Muslims like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Wafa Sultan and others say this themselves.
I still hope we can eventually avoid bloodshed. One ray of hope is that people around the world (Jews, Buddhists, Christians, atheists, etc.) have woken up and doing something about the Muslim threat. Question is, is it too late?
@KB
i am afraid its too late…
“Approximately 50 countries are Muslim-majority”
“Islam has 1.57 billion adherents, making up 23% of the world population”
unfortunately, bloodshed will become unavoidable in most of the scenarios.
Brother roger
I am not at all against the use of force against barbarism. In fact I believe terrorists and Jihadis should be dealt harshly, no confusion over this. But please tell me, what purpose is served by calling anyone pig? It only shows our frustration towards someone whom we cant reach. Frustration is the sign of helplessness, so we should not have it. Second thing is that it only makes the other more intolerant and violent. And third thing it contributes to the degradation of self in the journey of Moksha.
I recently visited a village near Deoband, the center of Jihadis in India. I met with the Hindus there. They told that all the Muslims in west UP are converted from Rajput clans. They still love Rana Pratap and remember him with pride. They told that many villages of Muslims want to convert to Hinduism but they fear that Hindus will not accept them.
So Brother its time to awake Hindus also who have been in deep sleep for a long. Muslims are fanatic, no doubt but its Hindus who remained inactive in this regard. So lets give Muslims chance and opportunity to come back to their home. Of course those who give fears of hell and Jihad should be dealt through Kshatriyattva as Rana and Shivaji did. But I think Kshatriyas have their roles to play in the fields and they should be prepared for that and Brahmanas should welcome everyone to Vedic Dharm through forums like Agniveer 🙂
Hope you appreciate
@bro vajra
Regret for not making it clear, actually i was talking about the latter part of your comment. verbal abuse won’t help anyone/serve the purpose and i too believe in it.
and yes i appreciate that…
Brother roger
Lets follow Shri Krishna! He never said that Kansa is not his uncle or Kauravas and Shishupaal are not his Brothers. Shri Krishna loved them all and that is why he was just (Nyaaykari) to them in showing them the path they deserved 🙂
The only difference is that Shri Krishna helped his Brothers through Kshatriyattva and we on Agniveer are doing it through Brahmanattva. And as you know, Brahman can turn Kshatriya anytime when needed- to help his Brothers get fruits of their deeds! Its just the matter of recognizing who is to be dealt with Brahmanattva and who with Kshatriyattva. Lets be prepared for both. Those for whom Brahmanattva fails, let Kshatriyas do their job. So Agniveer is a filter which absorbs intellectuals and allows all others to pass through it who need further processing through Kshatriyattva 🙂
Brother I request you to read 7th chapter of Satyarth Prakash in which Swami Dayanand explains how “Daya (mercy)” and “Nyaay (justice)” are not different from each other. Its too enlightening
Brother I have no hate for anyone. But whenever anybody support Gori, Ganji, Osama, Afjal, Kasab etc. I get irritated. I tremble to think how these terrorist destroyed our culture, nation, etc.They have raped to our country & after so much destruction even then they are supporting Arbas.
Brother truthseeker
I understand. But why get irritated and harm yourself? Saattvik Krodha (Manyu) is necessary for everyone. But it should be used as asset. It should destroy the enemy not you. The difference b/w Krodh and Manyu is that Krodh makes you blind, disturbs your mind, makes you dumb but Manyu makes your vision clear, concentrates your mind and channelizes your energies in one direction for the purpose of destroying evil.
And one more reason why hindus cannot violently oppress buddhism is because Lord Buddha is considered as 1 of the 10 avatars of Lord Vishnu, the maintainer. And forget not, Nalanda and Taxila were destroyed by muslims invaders besides 30,000 other temples (of hindus, jains, and buddhists). More recently, the destruction of the Bamiyan buddhas only goes to show the virulence and toxic levels of intolerance that the cult of islam breeds. The Quwwat-ul-Islam is a great case in point. The rise of buddhism in India was checked by the great luminary saint Shankaracharya who through his arduous efforts brought the converted back into the hindu fold. His phenomenal debate with Mandan Mishra spanning over a great length of time makes make it amply clear as to how he did it (He did not wield a weapon like the ghazis did). BTW, your ghazis knew only one way to convert—forcefully at the edge of the sword.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha_in_Hinduism
I have a simple question, how could you establish that Buddha was 1 of the 10 avatars of Lord Vishnu? I would love to know the methodology behind this hypothesis.
Or should I conclude like this – some intelligent person among your forefathers invented this idea to confuse Bhuddists.
I wonder if any Buddhist is reading this comment and can confirm if they also belive in Buddha being 1 of the 10 avatars of Lord Vishnu? Or it is just one sided love?
@Mohmmed
If there is any book existed which claim Great Budha was Avtar that is bogus like Kuran. We believe God dont need to take Avtar or send prophets according to Veda. I say it publicly but you cant say God dont need to send prophet. You consider God a dependent of prophets.One question to you according to Kuran soul has to die one day, then what is the purpose of creation of soul? Why God need to invention of soul ? You have not given me answer that I can measure your stone in Hight & width that means it is Idol which you can say plain in shape & Hindu Idol are of different shape in size than muslim & you bow head before idols why dont you accept it?
@ truthseeker
Quote “You have not given me answer that I can measure your stone in Hight & width that means it is Idol which you can say plain in shape & Hindu Idol are of different shape in size than muslim & you bow head before idols why dont you accept it?” Unquote
I didn’t answer your question because whatever I say, you will not understand. It will be as futile as trying to make a ‘blind’ see. You must have heard of – “Sawan ke Andhe ko hara -hara hi dikhta hai.” I have a more suitable for you- ” Saffron ke andhe ko, Islam bura – bura hi dikhta hai.” (Extremely sorry for using such language, but it describes you and your friends most suitably.).
If you want to belive that muslims worship a stone (be it measurable or not measurable), it’s your belief , not muslims’.
@Mohammed
Namaste Brother
Brother I have no ill-will with Muslim, Hindu. But I am God believer and I think & according to veda by bowing head before stone we are showing god contain or limited only Masjid or Mandir or Kaba. You are opposing hindu to bow head before Idol but I oppose both because I seeing both are stone of different shape. I never like this stupid rituals bowing head before stones. That is why I say Veda are devoid rituals & superstitions that is why I prefer Veda and consider above from Kuran, Puran, Ramayan, Bible etc & I reject all illogical facts of these books. I never consider human perfect. Because perfect only God & only God worthy for worship not include others like what you say prophet, agent in God’s worship.We should not believe blindly in any person.
@ Mohmmed
If you want Hindu should bow head before big stone instead of small stone. I protest such religion like Islam. Hindu have corrupted a lot & I never wish them to be corrupted more by bowing head before big stone like Kaba or masjid. For eradication of such rituals we are spreading Vedic knowledge which are devoid of such rituals.
@ Mohmmed
I agree with you that Hindu ko islam bura hi dikhta hai….why only Hindu all religions feel like that. Certainly there is a problem in Mr. Mohammed, Mr. Naik, you and your whole community. Its time to check facts bro….
Why do all religions hate Islam? Can you name of 1 religion which talks well about Islam – leaving the headless, brainless Muslims ofcourse.
@ Mohammed
How does it matter to you if anyone was anyones avatar. Why book talks about this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar#Dashavatara discusses about 10 avatars of Vishnu. Buddha is considered to be the 9th avatar. And yes if there is an intelligent person from any religion we would be more than happy to hear what he says…
No wonder we dont listen to anyone from …. (well u know). Grow up mate.
In the same breath, I would like to ask you as to how do you come to the conclusion that muhammad is the last messenger of allah, and allah alone is to be worshipped. Am I to conclude that muhammad was shrewd enough to declare himself the last messenger in order to bring the jews and christians under the fold that he created. I too wonder whether jews and christians would like to take the bait. Or it too is just one-sided amour fou?
All Glories to Vedas,,,
When in vedas it is mentioned about the incarnation of Vishnu-The Supreme personality of Godhead .
Every incarnation of vishnu takes place on a certain combination of astrological constellation and their arrangements.These facts are accepted by scienitst when the really tried out matching the events and dates during the mahabharata war as explained in Mahabharat and it certainly matched the constellation and year.Similarly the incarnation of lord Vishnu as Buddha was marked by the certain constellation or Nakshatra which is very rare.You need to understand this fact and have scientific approach(rather than just challenging)..All Glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga
Qery & answer from Ramswroop Ji,
Query: Namaste Guruji, Do you think God send Prophet or God needs prophets to
deliver his massage. & If god send prophet why there is difference in teaching
of god. There is huge difference in Veda & Kuran teaching. Like Kuran advise
Polygamy but veda not, Kuran advise meat eating but Veda prohibit meat eating,
Kuran advise kill the kaffirs, & advise rituals like Idol Worship in the
form of bowing head before Kaba building but Veda not, according to Kuran it is
neccessary to believe in prophets with Allah to enter in heaven but But Veda
talk about only God, no prophet & according to Veda it is not compulsory to
believe in prophets to get Moksha. Why God change his mind when he send
different teaching from his first teaching. That mean god is not perfect he is
compelled to be change & need prophets. Although I believe in formless God not rituals like bowing head before any building like Kaba. Please Guide me & send your answer.
Ans. Namasteji.
According to Vedas, God is Almighty, i.e., He has unlimited power. So, to
control the universe, He does not need any assistance, please. So, I am telling
about eternal Vedic theory. If, keeping behind the Vedic culture, somebody
accepts the need to have prophets, they may go ahead, please.
So, a person is free to follow any path in which He believes and has faith in
it. According to four Vedas which emanate directly from God, the knowledge is
mentioned therein and Vedas very well tell that he who adopts the Vedic
knowledge, is called Rishi-Muni and he should spread the knowledge to others to
promote brotherhood in human-beings. Vedas tell to worship only one Formless,
omnipresent, omniscient, Almighty God who creates, nurses and destroys the
universe.
Difference between Invention and Discoveries
Newton never invented Gravitation as it was always there so he discovered it.
Moreover laws of Nature cannot be invented they can only be discovered.Human beings discover things related to nature and if they try to invent out of already existing invention it results into destruction.Example Genetic modification of Plants and Humans by US and other EU countries.
Same way till date all such inventions have resulted into devastation.We must live on inventiorns of nature and not of human beings and humans should dedicate their time in searching the inventions of nature and discovering them finally realizing Allah.
May Great scientist muhammad Sahab(PBUH) give brian to these Kafirs
Please do visit this site to take blessings from Muhammad sahab body parts.We have Audi here for you all and you will be blessed by his body organs.
http://dars.ilmussalaf.info/ta.html
@ Tariq
You Said
Newton never invented Gravitation as it was always there so he discovered it.
Comments
that means do you agree god did not invented soul. If god invented soul why god invented soul. Do you Agree soul, God, & matter immortal and eternal as Veda said.
@ tariq
Brother the logic which you used in ur statement ” Moreover laws of Nature cannot be invented they can only be discovered.Human beings discover things related to nature and if they try to invent out of already existing invention it results into destruction ” use the same logic with my response you will get true answer …
The invention of god was already done by great rishis in satya yuga and to them VEDAS was revealed ,
and VEDAS describes the true nature of ISWAR and his followers life style , later out of invented thing when further discoveries started by human beings out of already existing INVENTION OF VEDAS , it resulted to destruction in name of ALLAH and poor Muhammad was the last man to discover the EXISTING DIVINE ESSENCE BRAHMAN and lead to destruction of this world…..
lastly your Abrahmic scientist were so poor that despite of rediscovering your ALLAH several times by Moses, JESUS and then Muhammad you still not have found a proof to define ALLAH (except from that of Quran ) ….. I made you understand these things from your own logic but still if you don’t accept VEDAS the Supreme relavation of god then you must be brain washed for several years to follow Quran and not to find a single error in it …
Om SHANTI , SHANTI , SHANTI ………
Please take blessing from Muhammad Sahab body parts of Allah.Only through Muhammad Sahab body parts you can get Heaven
http://dars.ilmussalaf.info/ta.html
@ Tariq
What specail Mohammed discovered which was not contain in Veda. Can you give me list few of them.
Yes GOD can create souls and matter as he is all powerful.He can create and destroy them.Lets have discussion on this.
No I do not agree that
soul, God, & matter immortal and eternal
Basically Allah can make soul and matter as he is all powerfull.How can you say they are eternal.It looks God of Vedas is weaker then Allah as allah can do anything if he wants.
Namaste Tariq
1. If God has created souls and matter then question comes, why? When He was alone, for whom He created all this?
2. “Allah can do whatever He wants” type God can never be perfect in knowledge and wisdom. The word “want” carries the meaning “desire” which is the sign of incompleteness and imperfection and it shows wavy character of God who can start wanting something at any instant. This way He does not remain unchangeable. A saturated entity like God should have/think already what He should have/think and should never have/think something which He should never have/think! Anything new to His knowledge or action makes His previous status less competent.
Allah as per Quran is time bound as He wanted to create which He never thought/did before! He never created before, so His properties of remaining alone got changed and He does not remain God anymore 🙁
@Tariq
Brother you are very ignorant and can’t accept truth ..
1 . Allah never existed because Allah is just a creation of Mohammad for his personal benifits which you call good deeds of Mohammad , for e.g looting, mass murder , rape etc , and followed by the entire generation of Islam throughout life , if you doubt plz check your history…
Allah never created anything cause he never existed , and if you want to prove that he existed then prove me without quoting from Quran and Hadith…
Allah was no one but demanded you muslims to pray without any partner and image , but see how weak he was that he needed help of human beings to invent a new religion…
Allah bears no proof except Quran , and even his other texts differ from each another , SEE how imperfect allah is …
Quran itself contradicts at several places by saying Allah formless and further states that Allah has form as he has created Adam from his own hand ….
Lastly ur Allah is very coward because he don’t provide his followers to judge Quran on basis of intelligence and logic , ur Allah said to believe so you people believe without any proof , shame on you creatures , having no same at all…
1. If God has created souls and matter then question comes, why? When He was alone, for whom He created all this?
Because that is his duty,he has to perform some function the way everything has to .He creates matter,creates soul and thensome soul go in what you call moksha and some are destroyed and some are again put into body which he creates from matter.It is his dunction,function of almighty and he keeps on doing this.Only he keeps calculation of karma and how this cycle works.
2. “Allah can do whatever He wants” type God can never be perfect in knowledge and wisdom. The word “want” carries the meaning “desire” which is the sign of incompleteness and imperfection and it shows wavy character of God who can start wanting something at any instant. This way He does not remain unchangeable. A saturated entity like God should have/think already what He should have/think and should never have/think something which He should never have/think! Anything new to His knowledge or action makes His previous status less competent.
No you are twisitng the debate be clear.
GOD is almighty and his function is creation,sustenance and destruction of this world and souls.He can destroy all souls or some soul based on your karma and similar way it is his choice to create or destory matter.So I do not see any problem in that.This cycle can only explained by him and that is why he is beyond our reach and that is why he is omnipotenet,omniscient and omnipresent.If we can understand his wisdom and knowledge then we all will become GOD so why don’t you accept vedic GOD is not strong like Allah.
Allah as per Quran is time bound as He wanted to create which He never thought/did before! He never created before, so His properties of remaining alone got changed and He does not remain God anymore 🙁
Please give reference of this and we will continue debate.
Thanks
Brother Tariq
———–Because that is his duty,he has to perform some function the way everything has to———
So is this Allah’s first creation or He has created before too? If it is His first, all my questions are valid as Allah did everything for the first time and thus He is time bound. If Allah has created the universe and souls before too, please give its reference from Quran. Popular belief in Islam is that Allah has created for the first time and all the souls will be put in eternal hell or heaven. But here you seem to believe in rebirth as well when you say- “AND SOME ARE AGAIN PUT INTO BODY which he creates from matter”, but popular belief in Islam is that no rebirth happens 🙁
———-GOD is almighty and his function is creation,sustenance and destruction of this world and souls.——–
Please refer to my previous question.
Law of Karma is the concept of Vedas. So thanks for accepting this 🙂
But Quran does not believe in it, so whats your stand?
———–Please give reference of this and we will continue debate.————
You give the reference that Allah has created before too and this creation is not His first one. Also which scholar of Islam agrees with this?
Thanks
PS: Brother you are presenting almost Vedic views like Karma etc in the name of Islam. So if this is what you believe, you are almost Vedic follower for me, and I have not much disagreements with you other than that you should not call this belief as Islam
———–Because that is his duty,he has to perform some function the way everything has to———
So is this Allah’s first creation or He has created before too? If it is His first, all my questions are valid as Allah did everything for the first time and thus He is time bound. If Allah has created the universe and souls before too, please give its reference from Quran. Popular belief in Islam is that Allah has created for the first time and all the souls will be put in eternal hell or heaven. But here you seem to believe in rebirth as well when you say- “AND SOME ARE AGAIN PUT INTO BODY which he creates from matter”, but popular belief in Islam is that no rebirth happens
No we take rebirth who said Quran does not believe on rebirth.And it is his duty to create and sustain and destroy everytime.Soul can be put in eternal hell means if u do wrong u keep on coming on this earth or some other lanet and will have bad form and life and if you do good you will be in heaven whcih is again on this earth or somewhere else in this universe but will be good.This is same as your karma theory So I do not see any difference.,ONly problem is your GOD is week and Allah is storng as he can create soul and destroy soul and so with matter esle he will not be power full.
Please tell me why your GOD cannot create soul and matter.??????Is he rock with no brain,
———-GOD is almighty and his function is creation,sustenance and destruction of this world and souls.——–
Please refer to my previous question.
Law of Karma is the concept of Vedas. So thanks for accepting this 🙂
But Quran does not believe in it, so whats your stand?
———–Please give reference of this and we will continue debate.————
You give the reference that Allah has created before too and this creation is not His first one. Also which scholar of Islam agrees with this?
Please read Quran which Zakit Naik propagates and read the description of each ayaat.
Thanks
PS: Brother you are presenting almost Vedic views like Karma etc in the name of Islam. So if this is what you believe, you are almost Vedic follower for me, and I have not much disagreements with you other than that you should not call this belief as Islam
No Only disagreement is
GOD of Vedas is very weak he cannot create soul and matter but Allah can.So we are in disagreement here.
Please let me know why GOD of vedas is so weak that he cannot create soul and matter.It seems he just manages .If you can give me reasoning I will accept Vedic Dharma else with such a weak GOD we cannot live.
This questio is basically to all scholars of vedic dharma and please do not try to divert the discusion by asking some cross question.
Why GOD of Vedas cannot create soul and matter when GOD of Quran can???
Why GOD of Vedas cannot create soul and matter when GOD of Quran can???
@Tariq
ok Tariq, answer one simple question for me, if Allah created matter, then prior to creating matter, what was surrounding him? Had Allah been omnipresent and pervading throughout the unlimited universe you would have been safe, but it is not the case with Allah since Allah has a fixed shape (not omnipresent and not pervading thru universe means He has a fixed shape).
You may not know but even empty space around us is also a form or matter.
Now two possibilities exist: Either matter created your Allah or both have been eternal, now you tell me which one do you believe in? Because we know that matter must be existing prior to Allah or it must be existing simultaneously with Allah, but Allah creating this matter does not make sense logically or even scientifically.
Please answer?
@Vik
Great question, Everything now settled. I am sure Tariq have no word to answer you.
@truthseeker
Namaste,
thanks, I really appreciate it.
Brother
ok Tariq, answer one simple question for me, if Allah created matter, then prior to creating matter, what was surrounding him? Had Allah been omnipresent and pervading throughout the unlimited universe you would have been safe, but it is not the case with Allah since Allah has a fixed shape (not omnipresent and not pervading thru universe means He has a fixed shape).
Please do read first page of Quran by Abudullah Ji referred by Zakir Naik Sahab.
It clearly says Allah is omnicient,Omnipotent and omnipresent.It is always there.He is actually pervaded in all.It is like pervader and pervaded.Matter I agree might exists from long time but sometime he can create also if he want.Once destruction happens matter is changed into subatomic form and so souls are destroyed and vanishes as subtle energy.Now he can create new soul by using that energy the way he wants.Similarly he can create or modify or destroy matter.It is all happenining under him only.
Think Allah is like human body where many things are going inside.In Hinduism Yogies can create energy from inside body by using prana in same was Allah can create anything and this is beyond human understanding.As he is everywhere he can use his prana to produce anything and destroy anything.I am follower of Ramdev and you must learn some Yoga and PRana concept also.
Hope I have answered your reply and you will accpet that Allah is all powerfull but GOD of vedas is just a Manager.
You may not know but even empty space around us is also a form or matter.
Yes Matteris everywhere but without form at sub atmoci level also it is there.
Now two possibilities exist: Either matter created your Allah or both have been eternal, now you tell me which one do you believe in? Because we know that matter must be existing prior to Allah or it must be existing simultaneously with Allah, but Allah creating this matter does not make sense logically or even scientifically.
No Matter cannot create Allah as Allah is the subtlest of all and he permeates the matter.Matter is always there in different forms but Allah can produce more or change or destroy it at his will.Here destruction means he can digest it and remove it from cycle of death or birth.Same way he can create matter(change form) which he took or you can say recycle the matter to give some other form.So he can either change/create/destroy matter.
See you are thinking from Modern science view where it says matter cannot be destroyed it just changes form.We need to understand that modern science is way beyond what Quran says and still Modern science has to work for millions of year to reach the science of Quran.Basically alll have to follow ISLAM for understanding the concept and experience this.
Hope I am able to put my point that matter can be create/changed/destroyed and we should not go just by modern science else science will win not vedas and Quran.
Good luck and do reply
Please answer?
@Tariq
Namaste brother,
brother, where are you coming from and which Zakir Naik do you know which agrees that Allah is omnipresent??
Brother Naik claims that Allah is NOT omnipresent, and here you are saying that Allah is omnipresent, why are you lying for? Your lie is caught here, if you do not believe me, watch the video below where Naik answers you clearly saying that Allah is NOT omnipresent, and kindly apologize for lying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWoAhwafB9c
matter is never destroyed or created, not only Vedas say this BUT ALSO MODERN SCIENCE.
yes, matter can be converted to different forms, BUT IT CAN NEVER BE CREATED NOR DESTROYED.
So Allah never created matter, if He did, then brother tell me since Allah is not omnipresent, what was surrounding him prior to him creating matter???
You assume Allah is omnipresent and I thank you for that because you are starting to recognize the true Allah as per Vedas, wheras fanatics like Naik deny this concept.
ok now you tell me since you agreed matter is everywhere in sub atomic form, did Allah create this matter or did it exist along with Allah since eternity? If Allah created this matter (when I say matter, I mean the most primitive form of matter, not its converted form), then what was Allah standing on? What was Allah surround by?
Please answer me on this issue.
Dear Brother
Here we do not agree with Zakir Naik.He is right around 90%
See Allah was everywhere and matter can be there or cannot be there.He can create matter if he require out of his prana which was inside him.
We have different school of thought in ISLAM where Allah is considered omnipresent Zakior Bhai is not aware of all but he says that we have different school of thoughts on this.
I am sure you will agree as Allah is all powerfull so he can create matter else he will not be omnipotenet.
See we do not have to give and proofs here.
Lets limit our discussion to
ALLAH can create matter or change matter is my point that is why he is omnipotenet but your vedic GOD cannot create matter so he is not powerfull.Lets focus on this now.
Tariq
If God has created souls and matter then question comes, why? When He was alone, for whom He created all this?
Because that is his duty, he has to perform some function the way everything has to.
Comments:
Tarique you are not clear here suppose If one say that you have certain duties towards your parents, nation, children, wife etc. That means they are existed. If they were not existed the question of duty towards them did not arise. As you saying Soul & matter is not eternal then for whom Allah has to perform certain duties. Duty means something other also existed for whom one has to do certain things. Please think logically & response.
@vik
You are right allah was not omnipresent it proves from verse of Kuran as follows:
Inna rabbakumu Allahu allathee khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda feesittati ayyamin thumma istawa AAala alAAarshi yughshee allayla alnnahara yatlubuhu hatheethan waalshshamsa waalqamara waalnnujooma musakhkharatin bi-amrihi ala lahu alkhalqu waal-amru tabaraka Allahu rabbu alAAalameena◥
Translation(s):
Hilali: Indeed your Lord is Allâh, Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days , and then He Istawâ (rose over) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty). He brings the night as a cover over the day, seeking it rapidly, and (He created) the sun, the moon, the stars subjected to His Command. Surely, His is the Creation and Commandment. Blessed be Allâh, the Lord of the ‘Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists)!
Comments:-
In beginning Allah was standing & sit on throne after completion of Earth & sky, moon, sun etc. That means Allah also stand, sleep, sit, eat. that means he has shape & he was not omnipresent because he was not on throne when he was making Earth, sky etc. After completion of these he sits on throne. Please scholar of Kuran, please put some light on this great verse. & what is secret behind 6 days Allah had taken in creation why not 5 days or 7 days or 1 year.
@tariq
If God created the soul that means soul have to die one day. Then what is the purpose of soul creation by allah?
If God has created souls and matter then question comes, why? When He was alone, for whom He created all this?
It is his function to create/destroy and recreate whatever he wants so he is most powerfull.If he cannot destory or create matter and soul then he will not be powerfull he will just be dummny manager who manages show.The way Vedic GOD is like Manager.
Because that is his duty, he has to perform some function the way everything has to.
Comments:
Tarique you are not clear here suppose If one say that you have certain duties towards your parents, nation, children, wife etc. That means they are existed. If they were not existed the question of duty towards them did not arise. As you saying Soul & matter is not eternal then for whom Allah has to perform certain duties. Duty means something other also existed for whom one has to do certain things. Please think logically & response.
“See Allah has a function the way stmach has function of digestion and always try to digest same way allah function is of creating.sustaiing and destroying soul and matter based on karma .It is his funtion to govern souls based on their karma.So he is most powerfull”
Please put your point in some strong manner and I will reply in same.
Thanks for your patience and trying to prove vedic GOD is powerfull.I agree he is nice Manager but not Powerfull like allah.
So Allah can create Matter and soul and can destroy them and sustain them
@tariq
“See Allah has a function the way stmach has function of digestion and always try to digest same way allah function is of creating.sustaiing and destroying soul and matter based on karma .It is his funtion to govern souls based on their karma.So he is most powerfull.
Comments
There is no use of digestion system if we do not put material in it. That means materiel should be available. & How law of karma works in matter case. And please do not talk against Kuran & according to kuran soul never destroyed & it goes for eternal hell & heaven for their karma & if i am not wrong according to kuran And for powerfulness of Allah please put some light on the Kuran Verse as Follows. I am interested in this great verse of Kuran.
Quran 7:54
◤Inna rabbakumu Allahu allathee khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda feesittati ayyamin thumma istawa AAala alAAarshi yughshee allayla alnnahara yatlubuhu hatheethan waalshshamsa waalqamara waalnnujooma musakhkharatin bi-amrihi ala lahu alkhalqu waal-amru tabaraka Allahu rabbu alAAalameena◥
Translation(s):
Hilali: Indeed your Lord is Allâh, Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days , and then He Istawâ (rose over) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty). He brings the night as a cover over the day, seeking it rapidly, and (He created) the sun, the moon, the stars subjected to His Command. Surely, His is the Creation and Commandment. Blessed be Allâh, the Lord of the ‘Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists)!
Comments:-
In beginning Allah was standing & sit on throne after completion of Earth & sky, moon, sun etc. That means Allah also stand, sleep, sit, eat. that means he has shape & he was not omnipresent because he was not on throne when he was making Earth, sky etc. After completion of these he sits on throne. Please scholar of Kuran, please put some light on this great verse. & what is secret behind 6 days Allah had taken in creation why not 5 days or 7 days or 1 year.
Mr.Tariq your friends wrote more than what u said about hinduism vedas etc in what is hinduism article. apoloreach has written point aftter point response. u shld close down truthofhinduism site 🙂
Namaste brothers and sisters.
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2058044_2060338_2060246,00.html
Please vote ‘no’ to this man who has killed, abducted and tortured so many innocent Hindu and/or Tamil civilians and continues to do so. Your help is needed to make sure scum like him is not honoured for his crimes.
Vote no brothers and sisters.
Proof for his war crimes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElNAsxuLQpI&feature=?player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snHz4TUPNts
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=3582&id=100000831996538
Nandri.
Allah is a man made supreem concept.muhammad can dream to supreem imagine and creates ALLAH. The simple common things all humans can desire high power,high knowledge and high leave.The muhammad dreams a ALLAH, Anybody can dreams its own supreem almighty.All mans are different gods.But problems was create myself god is a only one god and others god are not god.second my ego was hurt because my gods only one followers that is me.Then i started to my ego full of range to destroy others god And say my god is true to come and accept my god.
A simple common sense why allah sent a message? It was a supreem power and supreem authority he also contact directly to man and talking man to man.why he need a prophet and a book.This allah is not daring to face a common man because he afraid and it was not a powerful because he needs a prophets. Why allah need a messanger? and why allah need a book? Any needed are half, allah also be half.A common sense allah has counted a messangers? Muhammad is a last messanger?why? this counting man made, not allah made because allah is infinite and countless.
Discussion on idol worship is futile with those that believe in symbolism but find it to be an issue when a non-muslim indulges in symbolisms. If Hindus did indeed believe that an idol is God, our dharma would have seized to exist the moment the Somnath temple was sacked the first time by the desert marauders. I can add many many more examples of the desert barbarians indulging in destruction of temples and idols. The average Hindu does know that while an idol is symbolic of divinity, the true divinity pervades everywhere.
But let us contrast this with what would happen if a natural disaster strikes and the kaba and the grand mosque at mecca cease to exist. Muslims across the world will go on rampage and importantly many hardcore Muslims would commit suicide,as,in their opinion, this event would indicate that the fidelity of Allah / muhammad stands compromised. Islam cannot exist without kaba and the grand mosque at mecca but Hinduism continues to thrive despite the many times that the city of Kashi was sacked by the barbaric invaders.
The muslims here like Mohammameds and Tariqs will not accept it but the symbol of kaba is dearer to a muslim than a Shiva Ling or the Sudarshan Chakra are to a Hindu. As I mentioned above, the average Hindu does believe that the Sarvesh prevails all over the universe.
It is sim[ple the way GOD was not able to give Vedas and its understanding to all Human so Allah chose Prophet Muhammad(PBUH).It is same concept.
@Mtariq,
>>It is sim[ple the way GOD was not able to give Vedas and its understanding to all Human so Allah chose Prophet Muhammad(PBUH).It is same concept.
The same way god sent another prophet Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. And will keep on sending some one.
@Mtariq
Why have youe blind belief in Kuran, I do not know. But we are not blind we looks the things with logic. I have given a verse 7:54 of Kuran, but you have not replied me. I once again repeat please solve my query if you are not blind believer of Kuran otherwise do not west your time or talk nonsense here.
Quran 7:54
nna rabbakumu Allahu allathee khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda feesittati ayyamin thumma istawa AAala alAAarshi yughshee allayla alnnahara yatlubuhu hatheethan waalshshamsa waalqamara waalnnujooma musakhkharatin bi-amrihi ala lahu alkhalqu waal-amru tabaraka Allahu rabbu alAAalameena◥
Translation(s):
Hilali: Indeed your Lord is Allâh, Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days , and then He Istawâ (rose over) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty). He brings the night as a cover over the day, seeking it rapidly, and (He created) the sun, the moon, the stars subjected to His Command. Surely, His is the Creation and Commandment. Blessed be Allâh, the Lord of the ‘Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists)!
Comments:-
In beginning Allah was standing & sit on throne after completion of Earth & sky, moon, sun etc. That means Allah also stand, sleep, sit, eat. that means he has shape & he was not omnipresent because he was not on throne when he was making Earth, sky etc. After completion of these he sits on throne. please put some light on this verse. & what is secret behind 6 days Allah had taken in creation why not 5 days or 7 days or 1 year & Sun, Moon are the symbol of time if they were not existed then how time of 6 days matters here..
Truth Seeker
We do not have false belief
Hilali: Indeed your Lord is Allâh, Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days , and then He Istawâ (rose over) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty). He brings the night as a cover over the day, seeking it rapidly, and (He created) the sun, the moon, the stars subjected to His Command. Surely, His is the Creation and Commandment. Blessed be Allâh, the Lord of the ‘Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists)!
Six days are not todays days One Day of Allah has some millions of Years so please do not consider it as normal one day.
I think rest you can understand it is in allegorical form.Say night as a cover over day day means day and night created and then sun,moon etc/Here day and night does not relate to normal day and night they relate to sub atmoic particles of universe which have positive and negative energies.So please understand Quran as most advanced book of its time.It is not taken as normal book All words have different meanings like one word can have menaing relatd to GOD,Same can be related to GOD and soul and same can be related to science.So please convert to ISLAM and take lessons from some good Moulawi and have your family also follow Quran and then you can understand the true menaing of Great Muhammad Sahab(PBUH) a great scientist or father of all Great Shcolars.
What you are saying is not islam any more . You dont need it.
@ All friends
Here is an invitation cum challenge to our Muslim friends
http://satyagni.com/4091/i-am-a-non-arab-muslim/
I would also ask everyone to read this by Satyagni: http://vajragni.wordpress.com/
@ Hilali: Indeed your Lord is Allâh, Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days , and then He Istawâ (rose over) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty). He brings the night as a cover over the day, seeking it rapidly, and (He created) the sun, the moon, the stars subjected to His Command. Surely, His is the Creation and Commandment. Blessed be Allâh, the Lord of the ‘Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists)!
Six days are not todays days One Day of Allah has some millions of Years so please do not consider it as normal one day.
Comments
That means allah had different sun & moon from Humans. & he is not powerful he takes million of years to made universe so this is wrong saying that Allah can create universe just less than moment as roughly said. & after creation of Sun, Moon etc Allah sits on his throne that means he has shape & he was not omnipresent because during the process of creation he was not on his throne. & From the creation of Universe everyone know God has made the universe it not the work of man & then what special in this verse you find. & what different Mohamad discovered which was not mention earlier scripture like Veda.
Allah was a man made concept, not find pre arabiya,old testament,new testament.any same civilizationes did not say about allah. Allahs history does not exists. Only muhammads quran exist allah.
My only question to all Kafirs
Why GOD of vedas cannot create soul and matter.I will agree that Vedas are supreme to Quran if anyone can give convincing answer.Even Agniveer Ji if he can give me one convincing answer and I promise I will not debate and accept what you say.
One convincing answer why GOD cannot create matter and souls.
PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE>>>>>>>.
Namaste Muhammad
I will make you understand this through posing counter questions
1. Why Allah of Quran cant kill himself? In case He can, let me know 🙂
2. Can Allah make such stone which is too heavy to be lifted by Himself?
3. Can Allah change the writings of Lohe Mehfooz which He himself has written?
4. Can Allah send another divine revelation (in the presence of Quran) on a Kafir, say Agniveer?
One convincing answer why GOD cannot create matter and souls.
PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE>>>>>>>.
Muhammad
Please see above.
one convincing answer
We kaffirs cant create man and sould but can very definetely snuff out the life of a beliening momin, same like you cn d, so our god is as powerful as your god
All my firends I am not here for counter question
I Just want to know why GOD cannot create matter and soul.I am stuck here,I will follow Vedic Dharma if I get this answer.
I am not criticizing anything just want some logical reasoning behind this which can convince people
Hi Mtariq,
I guess from the aspect of science, energy cannot be created but only be manipulated. And since quran accepts the big bang theory it also support this.
Cheers
Namaste Brother Mtariq
Please see http://agniveer.com/4020/buddhism-and-vedas/#comment-30136 where a similar query is answered.
Thanks
This is very cleverly manipulated Article By an Intelligent Pro Hindu. What is most tragic thing is most commentators are discussing about Islam and Hinduism instead of point out this clever manipulation of facts!
On my blog you can find how such misconceptions about Buddhism.
I will focus more on how people like this agniveer try to create misconceptions about Buddhism in future posts.
@bs:
I havent researched your site extensively. Some of the more popular posts seemed to include interviews with Wendy Doniger (whom patrons of this site do not look upon favourably) and other material that is so far out of the left field that they would make Stalin and Lenin proud.
Nonetheless, do you agree that Islam and Christianity constitute a far far FAR greater threat to Dharmic religions (like Hinduism/Sikhism/Jainism/Christianity) AND atheistic communism? Can I look forward to posts trashing Abrahamic religions on your website? Or is your polemic going to be only directed on Hinduism? To jog your memory, the invading Mughals did this to Buddhists and Hindus. 🙁
So, anything that is unpalatable to you is any one of these: cleverly manipulated, part of a greater conspiracy, propaganda material, etc. You have anything substantial to share, you can use this portal, and we might come up with some answers.
रामकृष्ण जी कहते है की “यत मत तत पथ ”
माने सभी सत्य है , सभी धर्मं सत्य हैं
तरीका अलग अलग है लेकिन लक्ष्य एक है.
द्विधा सुरु होती है बातो की गलत मतलब निकल ने से .
सभी धर्मगुरु ऋषि तुल्य हैं.
आओ सभी मिल जुल के रहे
ॐ शांति शांति शांति
this is very nice…. but thing is you can say these lines only to hindus….
how can you explain these to the islamists:: who say must become a muslim else you get eternal hell !!
bhai aur bahne hum sabhi ek hai alag alag nahi… khud ko pehchane ao. kisi ki superority or inferiority ko proof karne ke liye tarka ka zarrorat nahi, jo satya hai sahi hai woh apne ap bahar aayega. dhrmaguru eek ek samay par aaye jab hum ne galat marg pe chal na suru kiya. hum sabhi un ek anadi anant ke amrit santan hai,aao mil julke rahe.
Hinduism is a religion which worships cow and cats . Why do you worship cow ? People in china eat snake and you stupid hindus worship snakes. lol Hinduism .
You Hindus are famous for caste system also .
@Timmanna aka Ramu
You need to read comment policy before commenting. Go to caste system article to discuss on it.
Muhammad
Ishwar do not neet to create soul and matter because along with Ishwar (suprem soul) all the souls and matter are eternal. Soul does not die, it only chnages the body and that we call death. So if something does not die (always present) then question of creating it does not exist.
The Buddha told how to control distracting and unwholesome thoughts in the discourse, Vitakkasanthana Sutta:
Essentially, we need to try, a step at a time, the following when confronting an unwholesome thought within:
1.Think of a good thing. In this case, the easiest is to think that not doing this bad thing is good in itself.
If the above attempt fails, and the unwholesome thoughts come up again, go to number 2:
2.Think of the bad repercussions this thought will bring; most of the time, these repercussions will be upon yourself (the law of karma).
If No. 2 is still not working, go to No. 3 and so-fourth:
3.Don’t think about it. (Find something else to do).
4.“Relax” distracting thought formations: As soon as you see an unwholesome thought, stop that thought from forming other thoughts. Essentially the Buddha said to tell yourself to gradually slow down the mental (and physical) mess that this unwholesome thought is creating in you.
5. Fifth and final try: With clenched-teeth, tongue on the palate of the mouth, and fight evil mind with good mind. Just say “STOP” to yourself and stop that unnecessary thought.
The Buddha stopped here, so it means that No. 5 should work… if it is not, you are not trying hard enough.
Note: The above cannot be applied if we are not aware that we are having an unwholesome thought. We need to be aware, at every moment, of what we are doing (i.e. thinking). This is the basic frame of mindfulness that the Buddha told us to cultivate. It is not easy, because the mind tends to drift when you are not mindful, but this essential “basic mindfulness” need to be there.
Hi agniveer , i have a question for u,
Gautam buddh ishwar ko nahi manta tha. Usne ved bhi nahi padhe the. To vah yogi kaise ho sakta hai ? Usmen vairagya kaise ho sakta hai ?
@Satya:
Gautam buddh ishwar ko nahi manta tha.
I doubt if this is true. Buddha instructed his followers not to speculate on metaphysical issues such as eternity of universe, existence of souls, etc. for it was bound to lead to madness/vexation.
Usne ved bhi nahi padhe the.
In my view, literal scriptural knowledge of the Vedas is not the point of Hinduism. Remember Hinduism is about principles and not about books or personalities. You delete Buddha, you delete Buddhism. You delete old Mo, you delete Mohammedanism. You delete JC, you delete Xity. But you delete Rama or Krishna, it doesnt affect Sanatana Dharma.
Also, it is not completely true that Buddha was unaffected by Hindu thought. Many Upanishads pre-dated Buddha. He was highly influenced by these and preached the 4NT/8FP. In my view, Buddha was more of a psychiatrist who was focussed on mitigating the problems in this life. He said dont worry about an afterlife. This is how indirectly many Hindus view their own religion also. Dharma impels them to do good and benefit in THIS life itself.
The Vedic law is-
Jo ishwar ko nahi janta/manta uski indriya vash mein nahi ho sakti. Isliye gautam buddh yogi nahi tha. Usmein vairagya nahi tha. Agniveer team pl answer.
Namaste Satya Jigyasu
Let it be the copyright of fanatics of issuing Fatwas on others’ beliefs and status. We should avoid doing this.
Knowing/believing Eeshvar is not at all stating that I know/believe in Eeshvar. A person believes in Eeshvar to the extent that he/she behaves morally to self and others. There cant be any absolute theist or atheist in the world. So we should focus on improving our level instead of judging others’.
But what schizophrenia ? a person believes in Brahm to such an extent that psychiatrist call him schizophrenic ?
sO IT MEANS THAT sRI rAM sRI kRISHNA ETC. WERE NOT ACTUALLY THEISTS BUT SOMEWHAT ATHEISTS.