- I Worship Idols
- In Defense of Idol Worship
I will burn in Hell forever. I will be punished forever. I am the worst creature on planet. Even if I die, no one must wish that God have mercy on me.
No, I did not kill any child. I did not rape anyone. I did not bomb, shoot, loot or cheat anybody. In fact I always followed the law. I never committed a crime of hate, passion or greed. I took care that no one is harmed by me. I paid my taxes. I did my job honestly. Sometimes in name of God, sometimes in name of my ancestors, I made charity to poor and orphans. When Taliban shot 133 children in Pakistan, I mourned as if I lost my own family.
My deadly crime
But all this does not make me a nice person. My crime is far worse than anything else you can . That is why, God will still forgive a rapist or murderer but will never forgive me.
Do you know what my heinous crime is? It is IDOL WORSHIP.
My crime is that I see God in idols. My crime is that I go to temples. My crime is that I worship Rama, Krishna, Hanuman, Shiva, Durga, Lakshmi. My crime is that I sing Bhajans.
No I am not joking. In eyes of a very dominant chunk of world population, my crime is the worst crime of humanity. They believe that I am the most disgusting creature on earth.
Hate in name of religion
I am called a Kafir which is an abuse that means ‘a disgusting person who commits most wicked crime’.
They say that their Holy Book tells that idols-worshipper is worst of creatures.
Now I don’t care what their Holy Book actually says. I don’t even know the language of their Holy Book. I assume that any religion teaches only peace and tolerance. And hence their religion must also be no exception.
But what worries me is that the entire community leadership is unanimous on this hatred. They may differ on how to deal with a wretched person like me on earth. But the moment I die, all agree that I must not be called “Marhoom” – one who gets mercy of God.
They will not participate in my festivals. They will not pray for me when I die. They will always consider me most disgusting.
Come what may happen, whatever be my good deeds, no one will say that I can also be blessed with Paradise by God. Even if I die saving life of an idol-hater, even if I selflessly dedicate my life to humanity, I will still burn in fire of Hell.
Terror continues
And that is why since beginning of Caliphate in Arab, there have been attacks on my country by invaders. In name of spreading religion, they plundered me without provocation. Sometimes in form of Muhammad Bin Qasim, sometimes as Ghori, Ghazni, Akbar, Aurangzeb, Babur, partition of India – they shamelessly invaded my home, killed my family, raped women and kidnapped many more to be sold as slaves in Arab.
And this continues till today in form of not just ISIS, Al Qaeda, Taliban but through hatred in hearts of millions of Muslims of world who are brainwashed by their leaders.
Translations breed terror
Read any available translation of Quran – idol-worshippers are depicted as worse than worst criminals and believers are ordered to hate them. I have read all major translations in English, Urdu and Hindi and that explains to large extent the emergence of Islamic terrorism. One liberal translation of Quran that did not interpret hatred for idol-worshippers was criticized as anti-islamic by all major religious leaders and hence flopped.
Thus, what we see is that any Muslim who takes existing translations of Quran seriously becomes a hater of Hindus. And this breeds terrorism.
Now I fail to understand, why should my personal faith be a reason to love or hate me! Neither me nor any Muslim of the world has ever seen God himself. Religion is based on assumptions which can be verified by none other than their founders. Is it, hence not perversion, to hate someone on basis of blind assumptions?
Who is not idol-worshipper?
I don’t want to either defend idol worship or condemn their critics. But it is an undeniable truth that irrespective of whatever label you give, everyone is worshipping idols.
– Muslims putting decorated sheets on graves, celebrating birthday of Prophet and promoting photo of Mecca is idol-worship.
– Majority of non-Arabic Muslims have no understanding of Arabic, but they still keep Arabic names, have Arabic slogans to remember God, and even put gothic pictures of their religious slogans. This is idol-worship.
– They try to mimic even clothing and grooming habits of Prophet despite knowing that he lived in a completely different era. The typical beard style without mustache that Muslims keep is because they believe this is how Prophet used to keep himself. If idol worship is a sin, Muslims are greatest idol worshippers.
Hindus don’t worship idols
As for Hindus are concerned, they do not worship idols. They worship God through idols. Idol is just a medium for them. That is why after completion of festive period, they throw away the same idols without any emotional attachment. Only those complete devoid of intellect would attempt to hate Hindus as idol-worshippers.
Why hate for idol-worship?
But the real point is even deeper. Even if a Hindu, or a Muslim, or any other person worships idols, who is anybody to hate him for that? You may differ, but why hate? And why encourage others to hate? Only a cult of completely mentally bankrupt people would choose this path.
Why idol-worship is sin?
How can anyone in world prove that idol-worship is sin? What is wrong with idol-worship? If I worship idols, if I keep making new and new idols and worship them in new and new ways, what is anybody’s problem? Does it cause loose motion in someone? Does it kill someone? Does it rob anyone’s property? Does it rape someone?
Don’t give me this crap that idol-worship is insult of God because God is only One.
First, if God has real problem with my idol-worship, he would come directly and deal with me directly. Its between me and Him. Is he on sick-leave to delegate that to an incompetent person like you?
Second, how do you know God is One or Many or Here or beyond Seven Skies? Did you meet Him? Can you give some evidence? If not, then what right you have to enforce your unverifiable notions on me? You are free to follow whatever you feel like. But how dare you insult me for my benign personal beliefs?
Third, Sensible people respect sentiments and do not hate form of expression. What more, true Muslims like APJ Abdul Kalam openly claim that they read Gita, go to temples for spiritual awakening, sing Bhajans and love Ram-Krishna. Real Islam must be what the most intelligent practice and believe in, and not the hatred that a bunch of dogmatic idiots spit out.
Root of all terrorism
Root of all terrorism is not Islam or Christianity or Hinduism or Idol-Worship. Root of all terrorism is the lunatic tendency to impose one’s personal notions on others by force or deceit.
I will not comment on original texts of any religion. Because I neither know Hebrew of Christians or Quranic Arabic of Islam. But it is a fact that available translations of texts of all major religions have a lot of stuff that is superstitious and inhuman.
But intelligent societies don’t take these translations by humans so literally. They use their own brains and encourage free choice of personal belief. These are called civilized societies.
The savage societies take these translations literally and force their ideas on others through threat. They continue to remain dumb because use of brain is considered a crime.
Warning to all haters of idol-worshippers
We have had enough of nonsense since a millennium. We continued to blame our misfortune – the rapes and killings and hatred – on miscellaneous petty factors. We continued to hope that with time and experience, you would mature. We ignored your hatred in name of religion.
But this fire of madness continues to grow. Each day a new news comes of killing, shooting, raping, beheading, bomb blast, siege, carnage and threat. It must be matched with fire. If Fire of Barbarism emerges, Agniveer (Fire of Courage) will also rise to destroy the barbarism.
We warn all haters of idol-worshippers to mend their ways. Follow whatever path you may choose. We will respect your right to choose your path. You have full rights to differ from us and even express your difference openly.
But stop this business of hatred. Stop killing, raping, abusing idol-worship and idol-worshippers.
We will not tolerate anymore.
It doesn’t matter if I am a Hindu, Muslim, Christian or Atheist. But if you spit out even slightest hatred against idol-worship, consider me the greatest idol-worshipper who would fight your fire with such a fire that would make you extinct.
Learn to give respect and get respect. Dare you discriminate against me or anyone else on basis of personal faith. In our dictionary, such haters are called demons. And we, the progeny of brave idol-worshippers like Shivaji and Maharana Pratap know how to deal with demons.
Agniveer is greatest champion of idol-worship till the mindset that says “Idols-worshippers are worst of creatures” is made extinct.
Jai Shri Ram
(Victory of Lord Rama who destroyed the demon Ravan)
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Amir Khan must read this article.
Why Bollywood movies are insulting Hinduism &Hindu gods??? But stupid Hindus are praising them…. Pk movie is best example. Our hindus are fools…
He ridiculed blind faith, arrogance, hypocracy of all religions. He made movie little dramatic. Otherwise, there is nothing wrong to take a shot at these.
Rolling on the floortradition by christians in old era, hitting self by hunters by muslims, telling people that chirsitanity is a doorway to heaven which still persist in the US, prime example is Preacher Robertson of Virginia beach who wanted to be US president.
first of all i did’nt saw PK. but i did saw some scenes. What i understood was that PK makes a little fun of muharram- especially the ritual where participants inflict self pain. However we must understand that pathans of India and predominantly muslims of north india (and pakistan too) are hanafi sunni muslims.
sunnis make fun of shiite practises, and portray themselves as secular and liberal , but the fact is they do not consider shiites as true muslims. So its kind of hitting two targets in one shot.
poor iranians are blamed for whatever wrong in islam
Haeyaa !
Great response. “Love all, hate none”. “Dont dare oppress us by your hatred, or you’ll be ashes !”
Jaya Pratap! Jaya Shivaji!
jaYA agNI veeRA !
Agniveer, I appreciate your intelligence and braveness. Through facebook i came to knw about 3 years back and shared your knowledge with our people. I am thankful that you made me confident. I have shared this post on my blog and given credit to yours.
Keep Doing the good works and stay blessed.
Thank You
Sunny Kumar
I subscribe to spirit of your article. But Swami Dayananda, the founder of Arya Samaj has mentioned that Idol-worship is a sin and insult to God. I think you know this fact, perhaps better than me !
Bhavesh Merja
+1
@Bhavesh Half knowledge is very dangerous. Now you want to follow a person (Dayanant Saraswati) than go by actual facts. Leave apart DS-this articles explains the basis of idol worship and clearly demonstrates that what Hindu’s do is not really idol worship.
Then why does DS says so?
People have this knack of following a teaching without trying to learn the principles. To bring those people back to basics our teachers may promote one aspect of knowledge which they feel would bring back…
When we see with our own eyes idols installed in the temples and the people bowing to those idols, how can we convince ourselves to believe that our people are not practising idol worship?
Bhavesh Merja
See dear it is simple to understand, no need to think much-
If god would be formless then how could a universe with very beautiful and appealing form could be created ??
Every thing is having a definite form, without form it is useless.
Let me clear you, –
how would you see a text as a means of achieving or worshiping god ?? like Gita, vedas, quran, bible etc……
now you will be saying that – yes holy text are an appropriate way to worship god . Right ??
so my question is that – you are accepting words printed on any media which is having form, ( letters – A to Z and numbers- 1 to 9 have a definite form !! ) to be a medium to god but not pictures or idols ?? why why ??
When we are reading any text written in any language, we are creating and at the same time remembering the images of the letters, symbols and numbers in our occipital lobe of our brain, when we are reading with pure and full devotion we are actually worshiping those images and the book.
Thats why holy books like Gita, Quran and Bible are regarded not only as books but as divine matter and are treated with respect in all religions.
Idols are 3 dimensional and pictures of god and words of holy text are 2 dimensional.
formless worshiping of the creator ( god ) is not at all possible.
After all swami dayanand saraswati is also a human, and all humans including great personalities are susceptible to mistakes.
Think out of flow, think logical in a true sense.
god bless you
Mr Bavesh Merja, when you sing national anthem and salute the national flag every one sees you saluting a cloth fluttering. Is it right? I Challenge yo to think logical in a true sense. An youn boy just get thrilled by looking at a photo of his sweet heart. Some times he even kisses the photo. Is he just kissing a paper or conveying his feelings towards his sweet heart? Let your logical and true sense answer.
back to core values. While your father taught you “how to ride a cycle”, hasn’t he told u “son-don’t worry I won’t take my hands off the cycle”…and then quietly took his hands off..thats not a lie…..he says what “u need to hear”.
In the time of DS, people were focussing too much on the superficial aspects of religion….castes fighting against castes, Shaivites fighting with the Vaishnavites…etc etc……all the while forgetting core values……that is “all people are equal in…
“Vishnu Shiva are not 2 different gods”, “God is one”, or more correctly “advaita” which means truth is one, there is no two. When people are seen to be forgetful of these core ideas and are seen focussing on superficial apsects “acharyas” teachers at time to time will tell you what you need to hear.
The statement by DS needs to be taken in that context.
My point is…u saw the post by Agniveer here…..u couldn’t find any fault with the article per se- did u? Then accept it,…
I agree with Mr Bhavesh’s comments linking Maharshi Dayananda Saraswati, who wrote his book based on Vedic thoughts. Mr Agniveer also praising his views and selling 4 vedas online. Also he writes that anything (sastras or books) written on God, not obtained from Vedas, should not be authentic and should not be followed. Even Swami Ramdev, Late Guru Kripalji,etc given importance to Vedic advices in the matter of God and His worship. IIt is better known to Mr Agniveer than others.
trying to object quoting DS. Better way to oppose is to quote scriptures. Problem with quoting men (long dead) is that their quotes pass through time…..their meanings, their contexts all get blurred with the passage of time. You got to analyse and accept knowledge….whether its coming from Agniveer, dayanand Saraswati (DS) or Myself
Otherwise u r just a pawn
Sorry if I appeared rude (thats not my intention…there was no better words to convey my message)
Thanks Jyothish Vijay ji,
Kindly read with open mind what Swami Dayananda has written on idol-worship.
Bhavesh
I had witten a detailed reply and all u have to comment is “read DS with open mind”….as if you think I have not read about DS
To allay your doubts….let me state it plainly , I have read about the teachings of DS…..”his main idea was go back to Vedas” and all the rest was his interpretation of Vedas. All I had asked you is to not to follow something because someone said so….u read the scriptures and form your own ideas. ALSO, READ MY PREVIOUS COMMENTS. I don’t want to repeat them
Both Muslims and Christians practice idolatry. Muslims worship Kaaba and black stone. Christians worship idols of Jesus, Virgin Mary, Black Madonna.
Muslims believe that Quran is revealed word of God while Christians believe that Bible is the revealed word of God. Natural questions arise : Why God contradicts himself by sending two different prophets with two different messages ? Is God confused of his own aim of creation ? Does this kind of God really exist ?
Appreciate your efforts……But even I (a Hindu) can give that answer:
As the Muslims claim, the Bible in its true form was indeed the message from god…..but over time the message got corrupted during translations and rewriting (some of which were done unknowingly whereas others were purposefully done)…and the current version we see is a “corrupted verse”. Hence god decided to send a new prophet and a new book.
Whereas Christians claim tha the Quran is a plagarised version of their…
In Islam, every single act of worship must be directed to God alone, and the greatest sin in Islam is to direct even the tiniest part of worship to other than God. It is not allowed for a Muslim to have any kind of intermediary with God in worship, whether a living being, or an inanimate object. Muslims pray to Allah – Almighty God – alone, and they do not take things either as direct objects of worship, or indirect objects of worship through which God’s help is sought…
The Ka’bah (also spelt Kaaba) is a mosque – a Muslim place of worship, built by the Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham), and before him by Adam, the Father of Mankind. It serves as a place of prayer, and the direction which every single Muslim around the world faces to pray. It also plays a critical role in the greater and lesser pilgrimages of Hajj and ‘Umrah, as the structure which Muslims circle around. Allah informs us about the Ka’bah in the Qur’an, saying:
“And [mention, O Muhammad], when We showed Abraham the site of the House (i.e the Ka’bah), [saying], “Do not associate anything with Me and purify My House for those who circumambulate it, and those who stand [in prayer], and those who bow and prostrate.” [The Qur’an: al-Hajj 22:26]
In all of these roles, the Ka’bah is simply a place for worshipping God, and a focal point of that worship, and it does not represent an object of worship itself or an intermediary through which God’s help is sought
This is clearly illustrated by the action of ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab, the second most senior and learned of the companions of the Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), when he approached the Black Stone, mounted in the eastern corner of the Ka’bah, saying: “No doubt, I know that you are only a stone and can neither benefit nor harm anyone. If I had not seen Allah’s Messenger kissing you I would not have kissed you.” Saheeh al-Bukhari
sorry ur knowledge for islam is little.firstly we worship in one direction as kaba and not worship but direction and secondly we dont worship black stone as it is jannat ka pathar es par sahaba ne kharey hokar aazan deytey the aap hi bataye jis ki aap pooja kartey hai us par kharey ho saktey hai woh sirf pathar hai .some people kiss the stone as mohammad pbuh kiss the the stone but not worship it so its just a stone.
Hmm.. Jannat ka Pattar.. and the proof of it is…?
Really it a good artical, i would like to say my opinion
Geeta states they one can attain the spirituality with Yoga and meditation, and Geeta 12:5 says it is difficult to attain the sprituality when you workship the imageless god.
Yoga sastra gives the guideline for yoga, and meditation, it says 3 elements for oga, and meditation which is person who do meditation , process of meditation and Object of meditation.
The third element ,Object of meditation plays the major role here. .
I asked those questions with particular intention to all Abrahamic religion followers. I don’t believe in prophethood, adam, eve, satan, dooms day etc.
@Akansha
I understood what u meant. But Muslims and Christians rarely visit here. And even if one does and replies to your querries, they will give answers to your questions along the lines I pointed out.
When they give an answer…..they leave off with a sense of satisfaction of “silencing” a non-believer.
Hence when u frame questions…..ask something for which they don’t have an answer for
PS: Search the net: to see if the qn has already been answered
First, Idol worshipers can’t be Hindus–If Vedas are considered the foundation of Hinduism–you can’t have both way.Vedas is a book of spiritual science and if Vedas are the basis then you can’t go against the fundamentals. Every science is built on certain basic principles. Vedas clearly negates Idol Worship and theory of Avatars.
Hinduism as practiced today is like adulterated milk: Hinduism=Pure Vedic Dharam+Superstitions.
Vedas are based on logic–Hinduism is not based on logic.
Hinduism says that an elephant head can be put on human body–Our PM says that it was an example of plastic surgery–OK agree then please repeat the same feat today. Believers of Vedas believe in logical and scientific thinking–there is no rationality in religion such as Hinduism. Hinduism say that Idols of Ganesh can drink Milk–Vedas say that it is not possible. I do not know how any reasonable person can claim that Vedas are the basis of Hinduism and talk against fundamentals.
Perils of Idol Worship:
Raj Dharam: Collect Taxes, build places of learning, build businesses, build army to protect taxing paying masses.
Raj Religion: Collect Taxes, donate gold, diamond, precious stones to a place of Worship.
King of Surashtra: followed Religion and donated diamonds and wealth to Somnath Temple ( with iron idol hanging in the middle of temple) instead of using Iron and wealth to build arms and protect tax paying people.
King Ram followed Dharam and protected his…
People have to choose between Chitra Puja & Charitra Puja, Dharam & Religion, Rationality & Superstitions, Progress & Ram Temple. VHP wants you to believe in Hindu Religion and steal your wealth for Ram Temple so that invaders can come and loot your wealth. You can either follow Dhram ( like King Ram) or Religion ( like king of Saurashtra).
Hair ananta hair ktha ananta kahai Sinai bahu vidhi San Santa are yaar bhakta ko aakar me dikhe ya nirakar me jaise sari nadiya samudra me jati haihai vaise saare tarike prarthna ke us talk pahuchte hai idol ho ya na ho phir bhi mai challenge karta hop koi na koi base hoga hi jaise musalmaano ka Kaaba ki taraf aur Christian ka cruce ke samnesamne etc
Sure, you can put idols in every corner of your house if it helps in your meditation but do not put a temple on the walls of a shopping complex and do not loot masses to construct a temple. Wealth of our country should be used to build industry, universities and a strong army,
Vedas are against idol worship u say…….if u have read the Vedas kindly state where Vedas do prohibit idol worship?
Agreed that wasting money on temples is not good…..meaning god doesn’t need the money
But man still needs to do it……because the real reason of such donation is “not to appease any god”…..but they do it because doing so gives them happiness….nothing more
Donating to temples leads to nothing good….but do not equate that as a reason against idol worship
I am glad that you asked me this question. Read Chapter VII of Satyarath Prakash:
http://agniveer.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/satyarth_prakash_opt4.pdf
Maharishi Dayanand questioned his father on the benefits of Idol Worship and became Maharishi Dayanand from Mool Shankar. It is interesting that Agniveer has put pdf version of Satyarath Prakash in his website and then argues against the teachings of Dayanand. He was the greatest scholar of Vedas & you will find all reference in…
http://www.scribd.com/doc/37684495/Satyarth-Prakash-or-Light-of-Truth
In English–read chapter on God & The Veda ( Chapter 7). It is a historical fact that not a single pundit of Kashi could debate with Maharishi on the issue of Idol Worship–he was a great Vedic scholar and no one could win in this debate–More than 100 scholars debated with him on this issue.
In the 11th chapter of Satyarth-Prakash one can read scriptural evidences as well as various reasons why idol worship is not to be practiced.
Still one is not ready to leave idol worship, it is his/her choice.
We sincerely respect such freedom. We are not here to compel any one to follow what we think right.
Bhavesh Merja
Yajurveda 32.3 says – “Na tasya pratimaa asti” – means God doesn’t have any ‘pratimaa’ = model, copy, picture, likeness, idol, dimension etc..
Logically also, a thing or substance or substratum present every where – infinite cannot be imagined to have any borders, shape, figure etc.
Bhavesh Merja
@jyotish,sir asfar as i have read,vedas are knowldge an truth , they express reality of god ,and yes nowhere its written that idol worship is sin,,bedas just gives us knowldge that ishwar is formless,omnipotent,present andscient ..but if anyone to convey his regards formsidols forpsychologicalpurpose its not acrime,,but one fact thisi salsotrue , the recommended worshipp, of god is eternal worship through yog,mediationand chanting of vedic mantras ,doesit givesgod anything,,answer no, god whatever does, does for others ,its not ishwar whogets pleased only by the way prescribein vedas,,but doing that raises onself to superconsciousness,,,when one getts more confined to innerself thaan external,,he becomes close to eternal,,i think saying idolworshipos as sin is fanatic,,but it shouldbethat v should elevate ourselvesfromexternaltoeternalselfandformofworships.
Dear sanjeev verma: -Swamy dayananda never said that idol worshipers are fools. He never said that idol worshipers are burned in the hell.If you want to spread true vedic dharma ,I can support you. But don’t insult idol worshipers &Hindus like Muslims.
Dayananda’s mission was not to use bad words for any body. He wanted to make people aware of the fact that idol worship is not a right kind of way for spiritual growth. He found that the Vedas & other Vedic books authored by great seers don’t approve idol worship, instead they recommend yoga and other thing. God, the Supreme power, is described in these books as a Formless & Omni-present entity. So he tried to awaken the people and wished to eradicate this evil practice from the world…
Dear Bhavesh,
I fully agree. One can do Idol worship if it helps him/her–I do not see any benefit & it is my personal opinion.. I see more benefits in Yoga & Meditation. Millions of people do Vipassana meditation without any Idol and get immediate benefits. Rishi also mentions in his book that you do not need to imagine an Idol or shape to meditate–you pay attention to breathing. Idol Worship (public display) is not good for a nation–we should learn from history.
Dear Raj,
I never made any such claims. Yes, he said that people worshiped Idols out of ignorance & he blamed this practice for the slavery of our country. You can always worship an idol if it helps in your spiritual practice. However, poor people of our country have been looted ( are still being) in the name of idol worship–an Iron Idol was put in the middle of Somnath Temple using magnets-India was a Golden Bird–wealth should have been used to protect its people. by building a…
Rishi’s message: Idol Worship in public space–brings inertia in society & nation–Our Kings exactly did that and allowed our wealth to be looted–we need to learn from history. My biggest fear–same is happening even today-all kinds of falsehood is being propagated through our TV channels–through Ram Temple movement–all in the name of Hinduism. How can there be so many followers of Nirmal Baba? He talks all nonsense. Rational thinking is questioned–protest against PK movie.
Swami Dayananda was a well-wisher of entire mankind. He tried to put the realities about idolatry without fear or favour, as a bounden duty of a Sannyaasi. He wanted to make people free from this gross misunderstanding. He declared and shown with scriptural evidences and reasoning that to worship idols is not a meaningful act.
Bhavesh Merja
Example of Religion/Blind Faith: A person buys a new Car, performs Puja, places Red Chunari on the top of his brand new car, Puts an Idol or Lord Ganesha on Dash Board–for his protection.
He then goes on road, does not follow traffic rules and dies in a road accident. He endangers his life and of others by disobeying the rules of the road.
What is Dhram in this example?–traffic rules.
@ Sanjeev Verma
Have you read the Vedas yourself? I for a fact know that none of the vedas says anything against “idol worship”.And nobody considers idols to be actually god. I asked for a verse from Vedas (against idol worship) knowing u couldn’t quote any. You instead quoted the work of DS and not the Vedas per se. DS does say that Vedas says “He is pure, is never born and never takes on a human form.”
But as I said to Bhavesh Merja earlier do not take a person’s words for face…
Always go back to the source (the Vedas)……swami DS has inserted “human form” into the translation of the verse from Yajur Veda which actually says “shudhama poapvidham” (Yaj 40.8) which means “he is bodyless and pure” AND TO THIS translation DS contributed his own interpretation that “god do not take human form”…..Such contributions keeps on accumulating when information passes on to you through multiple mediums. Always check with original source.
Apart from this verse ,…
no other verse comes even near to idol worship…..You can check…As I told…..do not believe me, DS or anybody else…check with the source….Now if u do find anything….plz quote it.
Secondly none of our principle scriptrues ie the Vedas or Upanishads or the Bhagavad Gita will contradict each other …when u interpret one, it should be in a way that do not contradict the other (u don’t have to believe me here….but its my opinion)
Why then does DS speak against idol worship?
As I told Bhavesh….our acharyas (teachers) will highlight only that aspect of knowledge which they believe is what the student needs to know (plz read my earlier replies to Bhavesh where i have explained this consept further)
Or it is possible that….the opinions of DS may be his interpretation…..and others have felt otherwise (including me)
In any case there is no verse in Vedas directly or indirectly prohibiting idol worship…..all one can do is interpret “na tasya pratima…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAZ9IPxlXrI
Please look at Kashi Debate Video.
1. God in islam lives in jannat ;sits in a throne above 7 heavens. while Hindus believe God is present everywhere omnipresent both microcosm and macrocosm. God is beyond space time
Having said this, Vedanta also says universe is illusion. soul of humans (jiva) =soul of paramatma (soul of Vishnu,Durga or shiva) = ParaBrahmam(GOD). it is similar to holy spirit concept in X’tianity
so idols have Dugra,Vishnu,Shiva not Brahmam…Brahmam is everywhere ; not just in idols.
Using maya(illusion) or prakriti (nature) God assumes many forms.
Now you cannot see Allah per islam,but you can talk to him. Allah spake with Moses (Musanabi) LOL
Mere lip service is enough in islam..just says Allah I thank you for giving me life… Say Allah I worship thee creater of worlds. No need to concentrate on GOD. you can’t concentrate on Brahmam. I mean unrealized souls like us …So you need to worship Shiva, Vishnu, Durga
Now islam says soul is born when you are born (say april 3 2001) but soul will not die and stays in hell forever (for hindus only LOL)
my question is if there is birth then there is death….think through….. our soul has no death or birth.
True, if someone does start a war, we need to be able to fight it, and end it on OUR terms, not theirs. Even if it means we gotta do a full scale brutal war, we need to be ready to do it. Key here is DO IT.
being against idol worship……but it will remain interpretation at best……because i take it as “there is nothing like him”
In any case the beauty of our dharam is that we are mature enough to accept others viewpoints
I replied to your opinion against idol worship because anyone reading this page might think that Vedas explicitly speak against idol worship. I intend to let them know that “such an opinion is only ONE interpretation” , there is no “explicit verse” like that….and
each person ought to read our scriptures like the Vedas and Bhagavad gita and interpret them on their own rather than blindly believing what another person says or posts on the net
Please look at Kashi Debate Video on Idol Worship: Rishi Dayanand versus Rest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAZ9IPxlXrI
PK from Past:
Please look at Kashi Debate Video on Idol Worship: Rishi Dayanand versus Rest of Kashi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAZ9IPxlXrI
In fact, this Video says that Idol Worship is Sin. Sin basically means something that brings inertia in society.
Dear bro,
The only verse quoted in the video that comes somewhere near prohibiting idol worship is “na tasya pratima asti”….which if u would just look back has already been addressed….apart from this the video didn’t speak of any scriptural evidence against idol worship…..because NO SUCH VERSE EXISTS !
Our religion is a broad minded one……which focuses on “how deep your devotion Is’ rather than “the manner in which u pray”
I get the impression u have only read about the…
Dear bro,
The only verse quoted in d video that comes somewhere near prohibiting idol worship is “na tasya pratima asti”….which if u would just look back has already been addressed by me….apart from this the video didn’t speak of any scriptural evidence against idol worship…..because NO SUCH VERSE EXISTS !
Our religion is a broad minded one, which focuses on “how deep your devotion Is’ rather than “the manner in which u pray”
I get the impression u have only read about the…
@Sanjeev, (contd.)
As I told, u seem to be following the words of a person rather than scriptures. You can’t rely upon the interpretation of Vedas by someone else, you have to interpret yourself. I believe in this….hence i am not giving you any links to check……Just go back , check the Vedas and then comment
I have checked each and every link u gave….then why don’t you try my request for once….”try to quote one vedic verse against idol worship”
(And plz don’t say “na…
Dear Vijay,
You also know that this video merely depicts a play by the students in a Gurukul. The actual debate continued for several hours– & there were 300 scholars on the other side in this debate. Rishi Dayanand is the greatest scholar of Vedas. Satyarath Prakash is not a religious book–it gives arguments ( Q& A form)based on Vedas. You can go & read chapter 7 & 11 and answers to all the arguments that you are making in this forum.There is difference between Religion…
I can tell you with fair degree of confidence that Rishi Dayanand was the greatest scholar of Vedas of modern era–he was an authority. Vedas are not easy books to read & interpret–even knowledge of Sanskrit is not sufficient. I am not even qualified to do so. SP has several quotes from Vedas against Murti Puja. I will also have to quote either from SP or Rishi’s translation of Vedas. Sometimes you have to use your own intellect to understand things–Murti Puja is not logical.
Truth is that Agniveer himself got the knowledge of Vedas through Maharishi Dayanand. I do not know the motivation behind his posts but he also knows that Vedas do not support Idol worship–Agniveer is simply promoting the interests of RSS & VHP through his postings for political reasons.
There was never a religion called “Hinduism”–Vedas say “Manur Bhav”–not “Hindu Bhav”. Word “Hindu” does not exist in ancient scriptures.
Dharam is universal for all man kind and does not exclude anyone– Muslims, Christians or Jews. Vedas say Manur Bhav–meaning convert to a virtuous person ( Ghar Vapasi in real sense) by imbibing virtues and denouncing vices from your life–this is the goal of life. God is an abstraction of 100% virtues. You have to convert every single day and move towards God by bringing virtues in your life–you do not need a piece of stone for this. We human have x% of virtues and y % of vices: God: x=100%
In fact, your definition of Hinduism excludes Vedas. Vedas clearly say God is unborn, formless& omnipresent. This negates theory of Avatars. If you Hinduism is all inclusive ( all humans) then it is not a religion. Vedas are the books of spiritual science: It can not have contradictions. It either supports Idol Worship or it does not. You can’t make an argument that Vedas support both.
I agree Vedas say that god is bodyless and pure. But my only point here is that eventhough god maybe bodyless or pure, it is not prohibited in Vedas to devote this bodyless god by the medium of an idol. No sensible Hindu will attribute any special power to these idols and he does know that his god’s true form is transcendental.
Lord Krishna in Bhagavad Gita does say that his real form is transcendental. If we accept that for face value I don’t see it contradicting the Vedas.
Agreed…
Hinduism is not all inclusive–VHP/RSS uses this word to describe everyone who is not Muslim, Christian or Jew. However, in practice it means Idol worshipers. if I say to an American that I am Hindu then he will describe me as one who worships Lord Ganesh or Shiva. This definition is not acceptable to Sikhs and many others. I am an Aryasamaji and I also do not think that I come under this definition–rather I would say my dharam is Hunamity–I feel comfortable with this definition..
Teerorism is a human vice–it originates in blind faith and ignorance. Islam is man made religion–it has contradictions–message of both peace and violence. Terrorist uses the verses that suits them. It is not limited to a single faith–Hinduism has also traces of it: Attempts on the life of Rishi Dayanand in 19th century; killing of Vaidf Prajapati by Asha Ram supporters; discovery of arms in Baba Rampal Ashram; attack on Swami Agnivesh by VHP because of his Amarnath comment; PK Protests etc.
Agreed Bhagavad Gita is probably a human work…..if thats so…..Ved Vyas wrote it. Ved Vyas is considered the greatest sage in Hinduism (plz excuse the usage of the word Hinduism)…..its he who has rearranged/split the Vedas. The present day Vedas are the result of Vyasa’s work. So maybe he conjured up fable stories to write a totally mythological Bhagavad Gita. But even in this view, the ideas presented in BG represents Vyasa’s understanding of Vedas. My understanding of the Vedas too is
in agreement to the concept that , in our dharam we are “allowed” to worship the bodyless god through idols and that Vedas are not against avatars.
I am not saying u should believe my viewpoint. But my understanding allows me to accept all major scriptures without facing intra-scriptural contradictions.
Can there be multiple viewpoints?
Eventhough u may not have read Vedas I am sure u would accept that Vedas are complex works and two people could get different interpretations.
I…
if god was against idol worship, there would have been a verse directly prohibiting it.
Let me also remind you, when the Vedas say that “god is bodyless”, they are talking about BRAHMAN. It doesn’t mean that this Brahman can’t manifest itself in a bodily form if it wishes. If u take it this way, it is very much in unison with BG verses where Krishna says “my current form is not my real form, but u cannot know my transendental form”
Further he clarifies that it is easier to pray to a…
iswar than to a nirakar ishwar-eventhough both methods are equally valid (whcih in my viewpoint explains one reason for having a Sakar ishwar).
I believe Swami DS viewpoints were a necessity in his times……and that is why he promoted it.
Finally a logical statement: God wouldn’t test us or reward us (excuse me for using the terms “test” and “reward”….these are not really appropriate in our dharama-i know,,,,but i used it only b/c those words drives home the message) based on our…
ie whether we deduced right regarding the god concept. If it was so-u would agree with me that it would be so unfair….Afterall even the Pundits have differing opinion after reading the same scriptures…..hence it would be unfair to expect us to get it right…….INSTEAD I believe more than our scriptural knowledge and “deductions”, it is going to be our level of devotion to god that is going to matter. My uneducated neighbour may infact have a better chance at salvation than me or you b/c
his devotion was stronger and truthful……So I believe itcounts for nothing if we read all the scriptures and keep our heads up in pride that we have the correct knwoledge about god (that he is bodyless and pure) if we are unable to realise god (for me that is salvation)……..and I believe an idol worshipper or a “bodilyless god” worshipper both can achieve it…….if they can forgo their egos……and worship god in whichever form they feel is right !!!!!
Movie PK gave a strong message: Just imagine that you are not born in a Hindu, Muslim, Christian or Jew family–You are PK. It will take several hundred years to count stars in this universe and there are infinite Galaxies–lots of matter. You take a piece of clay from your backyard, give it a shape–then consider it to be the creator of this universe–you offers gold, diamonds etc. to this piece–do u find it logical? You offer it flowers, milk etc.–made of same elements-no books needed.
Yet an other excellent article, Agniveer. Thanks
This is going to be probably the last of my disocurse
“grantham abhyatha medhavi gyana vigyana tatpara palaladi vadanyarthi tyajeth grantham asheshaha”
Meaning one must read scriptures and try to get its message………rather than clutching onto the book as such
Tatvamasi (you are that) and Aham Brahmasmi (I am Brahman) are two mahavakyas u would find in the Upanishads. These are the ulitmate knowledge. But it is intended to be given only to those students who have attained a pure…
and concentration. Until one reaches this state our Acharyas will ask us to perform devotion to attain this state where u r ready to obtain the ultimate knowledge and state. Imparting such knowledge to a less qualified being can only be counterproductve and even dangerous. Imagine telling “you are that” to a unread Hindu-it would make no sense to him.
To attain this state we need to do devotion…..and to do devotion we need a medium…..a word, a picture, an idol something……if u don’t
your devotion would remain weak and u will remain where u r . In state u can keep all your scriptural knowledge and this is not going to help you (I am presuming you to be a person ill-equipped to woship a formless Brahman…..having not enough concetration/mental faculty to do that….A Big SORRY if I am mistaken).
In your case all u have is few verses here and there and u have missed the message. And now u have pinned all your hopes on the teachings of DS.
For all u know, swami DS may…
man of higher faculty,,,,who could fo about with the fomrless god concept……or as I had said earlier at the timeof DS he may have felt that India needed a jolt to shift themselves from cult practices and thus intentionally proponded one aspect of knowledge…..or maybe he just failed to realised that not all people are ready to do away with idol worship.
More probably, its also possible that the messages from DS would have corrupted over time and u now see a distorted version !!!!
God is unchangeable, means He never undergoes any change.
Before Maharshi Dayananda came, God had been Formless and Omni-present.
During the life time of Dayananda, God was Formless and Omni-present.
After passing away of Dayananda, God has been Formless and Omni-present.
These are His natural attributes. He exists so eternally.
Bhavesh Merja
Vijay, I know that there is no point in arguing over this point. Maharishi Dayanand is from 19th century & there has not been any distortion–his message is well documented in Satyarath Prakash (written in 1875).. Neither I nor you are qualified to interpret Vedas and debate over its finer points. Everything is logical here–We became slaves because we started relying on these stones instead of our own capabilities–a rich country builds army to protect its people & our kings did the…
People make all kind of arguments in support of Murti Puja–Rishi has written his chapters in Q &A form and gave answer to all those questions in the Chapter 7 & 11 of his book. People in west are slowly moving away from organized religions–I have yet to see a Church under construction in USA. My Polish friend once told me that Christians only twice in their life time: At the time of wedding and at the time of death. One of my musli,m friend from Turkey told me that religion was…
again typo, my friend told me that Christians go twice in their entire life to the Church.. Religion is very unpopular in USA. & Europe. Same is true in Japan–I was in a Train and a Japanese student was sitting next to me–he told me that majority of the Japanese do not believe in any organized religion–I heard similar sentiments from my Korean Friends. Chinese also do not practice any religion. Main purpose of these temples is to explot poor people–spirituality is very different.
if you talk about the spiritual science and bring scientific thinking–eliminate idol worship and other superstitions then people will naturally come back to you. I did ten days Vipassana meditation course 10 days back and found that person sitting next to me was Iranian. Few months back, Vipassana course was offered in Persian language–showing its popularity among Iranians. God has given same intellect to everyone and people are logical by nature.
some typos, I did Vipassana meditation couple of years back. .
Nice comment. I agree. vipassana is Yoga. that kind of meditation is in the Vedas. Buddha was just reviving Yogic meditation. Buddha was a rishi and yogi.
HI, Nice to read your comments. Can i know your opinion on the these 3verses of Bagavath Geeta 9:11 and 12:2 and 12:5. ? Please read this link for details behind the idol workship?
http://www.hinduism.co.za/ideal.htm#There is great beauty in the idea of worshipping an image.
I will consider DS knowledge as half cooked knowledge, as compared to the LORD KRISHNA.
Please see this video also
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7P7As7Cn0I
Raja, please read Ravi Arya’s translation of the Bhagavid Gita. Excellent translation by a sanskrit scholar who shows Krishna never said worship me, he said follow my message.
I go to to one meditation group in San Jose: http://www.awakin.org–Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus everyone comes here–they discuss spiritual matters and eat dinner together. The world is moving towards rationality–more and more people are saying that we are spiritual–not religious. I am a “Human Being” and I am very proud of that–I do not need any Tag of Hindu, Muslim or Christian..
I have very limited understanding but my understanding says that God has sent us with four things:
1. Physical Self, 2, Mind Self 3. Intellect Self & 4. Soul self. Mind is subtle than Physical self; Intellect Self is subtle than Mind and Soul is subtle than Intellect.
God has given you a human body–Take care of it by doing regular exercise, yoga and eating healthy food. This is the worship of Physical self.
To me health club or yoga center is a Temple, where I worship physical self.
God has given me Mind–I worship my mind through meditation–Purify your mind of all impurities that you are carrying from previous life and acquired in this life. Vipassana Meditation is all about purifying your mind.
This is the worship of mind.
God has given me intellect: I should use my intellect to do innovative work so that world can benefit. One of the message from Veda is that humans should acquire knowledge for the benefit of everyone.
A scientist worships through his intellect–Engineers by inventing search engine has done immense service to man kind–they came from all faiths. There is Brahma or intellect in everyone irrespective of faith–Hindus, Christians and Muslims.
God has given me soul–I should treat everything around me, other human beings, plants, nature with respect. I should not do anything that hurts other human beings, They are all creation of the same God. I should not pollute my environment.
Vedas say become a good human being–not Hindu, Muslim or Christian.
Choice is yours–I see lots of negativity here–criticizing Muslims for worshiping Black stone in Kaba etc at the same time defending your own blind faith–this is not good for…
Most of the Hindus have not read any scriptures–Vedas, Gita Or Upanishads–resulting in emergence of brokers–Asha Ram, Nirmal Baba, Radhe Ma, Rampal etc. Launch of Astha channel was a boon for these fraud Babas. No one has time to read scriptures and understand spiritual science.
This is the reason Christian Missionaries are active in India–West has become rational–If Nirmal Baba can get so many followers then they can also! I do not think that there is need for forced conversion.
Now let me come to the question of Zakir Naik–He is simply exploiting ignorance of gullible Hindus. He uses the same technique that other fraud Babas are using.. I saw some videos posted in youtube. He says to a Hindu woman that Krishna had 16K wives or girl friends and she gets convinced and accepts Islam. I recall one event, where Hare Krishna Bhakts came to stage and told a largely western audience that Krishna had thousands of girl friends–no one protested–this simply shows ignorance..
If you really want to address conversion issue then everyone should read “Satyarath Prakash” and understand true Vedic Dharam–stop worshiping these toys made of clay and stone, eliminate untouchability and other superstitions–also put all these babas in jail. Open Health Clubs, Yoga & Meditation Centers in every block, Promote scientific and rational thinking–explain message of Vedas in simple language–can not accept everyone to read Vedas.
again typo–you can’t expect’ everyone to read Vedas–should be explained in simple language. No one wants complications–whether it is going to Amarnath/Vaishno Devi Temple or offering Namaj five times in a day. Rejection of organized religion by West and many other developed nations simply shows that human beings are rational by nature & they want to lead a simple life. Ppl convert because of suffocation. Recently mother in law of my friend to Amarnath and she had brain hemorrhage…