- Who was Rama – Myth or Historical Hero
- Babur and Babri
We present an insightful article by eminent scholar of Vedas and History – Shri Rajveer Arya (aryarajveer[at]gmail[dot]com) written three years ago on the issue of Shri Rama being a myth or a historical legend. It’s evident from the facts that Shri Rama was not only an Indian legend but a global phenomenon. There can be nothing more shameful than living in India and yet denigrating one of its greatest role models. Kindly read and circulate widely on the eve of the Ayodhya judgement:
Nowadays, the issue of Ramsetu is highly talked about by many people. The government filed an affidavit before the Supreme Court that clearly denies the historical existence of Shri Rama on this earth. However, the strong opposing political parties and other Hindu activists forced the government to withdraw the affidavit. Some Hindu organizations like Vishwa Hindu Parishad, claim that posing questions relating to the existence of Rama cannot be simply answered by scientific or historical data.
The existence of Rama is basically a question of faith for millions of people. Therefore, no government or any other party can deny the existence of Rama. Some of these so-called “great advocates” of Hinduism did not show guts to take on the Government/Karunanidhi, and proved that Rama is a historical fact and not a myth.
Nevertheless, they were supported from unexpected quarters like the Hurriyat Conference from Kashmir. Hurriyat also claimed that scientific or historical evidence is not the yardstick to judge various issues related to religion. Hence, whether Rama existed or not cannot be decided on basis of scientific or historical findings. This is basically associated with religious sentiments of millions of people around the world, and therefore the interference of any government or political party is undesired.
As of now, many scientists, based on astronomical data, have propounded that Rama existed around 5044 BC. In such a perplexing situation it becomes very difficult for common masses to arrive at any conclusive view regarding the existence of Rama. Hence, we have to first analyze various facts regarding Rama, and his epic, Ramayana, before arriving at any final verdict.
Maharshi Valmiki, in order to guide the future generations, decided to write a historical epic that can help everyone follow a path of morality and righteousness. He ended up in a dilemma regarding this issue. Later on, he consulted Narada Muni, who in return suggested him to write about Rama, the son of Dasharatha, who was born in the clan of Raghu.
Similarly, Mahakavi Kalidas wrote Raghuvansham. This book throws light on the lineage of Raghu, and also states various kings who ruled after Rama. So, now the point of the argument is that if Rama was a mythological character, then how did Valmiki provide the history of Rama’s forefathers?
In Raghuvansham, how did Kalidasa provide details of Rama’s forefathers, and his various Santatis (successors) who ruled after him? In present times various books dealing with stories of Rama are prevalent in India and around the world. We will throw light on this issue in the latter part of this article.
WHEN WAS RAMA BORN: (based on Valmiki`s Ramayana)
One of the most anticipated topics in this modern era is: when was Rama born?
Before dwelling on this point, we have to understand that our great Maharshis have systematically divided the period of Shrishti into Manvantaras, each Manvantara being further divided into Chaturyugas, each Chaturyuga consists of Krita (Satyuga), Treta, Dwapara, and Kaliyuga. The present Manvantara is Vaivasvata Manvantara. So far, twenty-seven Chaturyugas have already been passed. Right now, it is the 28th Chaturyuga, and we are still in the first charan (period) of this Chaturyuga.
It is a well-known fact that Rama was born during the latter part of Treta Yuga. Hence, if we assume that Rama was born in the present Chaturyuga, then it means that he was born at least 1,000,000 years ago. The period of his birth will probably be more than this.
However, Vayu Purana provides us the correct chronological period of Ramayana. If we take the Vayu Purana’s period into consideration, then the period of Rama becomes at least 18,000,000 years old. Hence, we can easily conclude that the period of Rama in the time scale is at least 1,000,000 to 8,000,000 years (this issue will be resolved in another topic called “Blunders of Indian History”).
This particular view is also supported by the fact that when Hanuman travelled to Shri Lanka in the search of Sita, over there he saw elephants having four teeth. Hence, this now becomes an issue for archaeologists/biologists to ascertain when such elephants existed on earth (The calculations of Chaturyugas will be dealt with in another topic called “Age of Present Shrishti”).
The difficulties encountered in establishing chronological correctness of historical events for the period before Christ will be dealt with in the other article called “Blunders of History.” Another interesting fact that has been mentioned in Valmiki’s Ramayana is that the maternal home of Bharat and Shatrughan was in a country where transportation took place in the form of vehicles being propelled by dogs or deer. When the two brothers returned to Ayodhya from their maternal home, they crossed many places covered by snow, and were also dressed up in clothes made of wool. Now, the location in which this episode took place is yet to be ascertained.
According to our logic, this episode took place in Russia, and phonetically Russia sounds like misnomer of a Rishi, but this has been taken care of in our article called “Blunder of Indian/World History”. From the facts mentioned above, it clearly gives us an insight into the period of Rama’s birth. So, those who claim that Rama is only a mythological character have been proven wrong since we have provided them with so much evidence in this article. We will also establish that before the advent of Christianity and Islam, Rama was revered throughout the world as an international cult figure.
LEGENDS OF RAMAYANA IN VARIOUS PARTS OF GLOBE
1) RAMAYANA IN RUSSIA AND MONGOLIA:
The Deccan Herald, on 15th December 1972, on its front page gave the news in which it stated that a story relating to Ramayana was published in Elista, capital city of Kalmyk, in Russia. The news further stated that various legends of Ramayana were popular among people of Kalmyk. Many versions of Ramayana are already stored in the libraries of Kalmyk. The news clearly stated that legends of Ramayana were extremely popular since time immemorial. Domodin Suren, a Russian writer, has mentioned various legends that were popular among Mongolian and Kalmyk people. Prof C F Glostunky`s manuscript called “Academy of Sciences”, is located at Siberian Branch of Erstwhile, U.S.S.R. This book deals with various legends popular along the Coast of Volga River, and its manuscript is in the Kalmyk language. Last, but not the least, in Leningrad, a great number of books dealing with stories of Ramayana are still available and preserved even today in Russian and Mongolian languages.
2) RAMAYANA IN CHINA:-
In China, a large collection of Jatak stories related to various events of Ramayana, which date back to 251 A.D, were compiled by Kang Seng Hua. Another book from 742 AD, which relates the story of plight of Dasharatha after Rama, was ordered to go for Vanavasa is still present in China. Similarly, in 1600 AD, His-Yii-Chii wrote a novel called Kapi (monkey) which elaborated on the stories of Ramayana, predominantly that of Hanuman.
3) RAMAYANA IN SHRI LANKA:-
Naresh Kumar Dhatusena also known as Kumardasa, who ruled Shri Lanka in 617 AD, wrote a book called, “Janakiharan”. This is the oldest Sanskrit literature available in Shri Lanka. In Modern Times, C. Don Bostean and John D`Silva have written stories based on Ramayana. Till now, majority of the population adore and highly respect the duo of Rama and Sita.
4) RAMAYANA IN CAMBODIA (KAMPUCHIA):
Today, there are many rock inscriptions belonging to 700 AD, which are located in Khmer region of Cambodia. These rock inscriptions are based on the events of Ramayana. Many temples were constructed during the reign of Khmer dynasty, and currently, their walls depict many scenes and events of Ramayana. The temples of Ankor are very famous for the stories of Ramayana and Mahabharata. These temples belong to the earliest parts of the time period dating back from 400 AD to 700 AD. One astonishing fact in these engraved pictures is that Hanuman and the rest of the other Vanaras are not shown with their tails as it is against the popular belief of the masses. (Whether Hanuman was a monkey or not, this issue will be examined later on)
5) RAMAYANA IN INDONESIA:
According to De Casperis, there was a temple named “Chandi Loro Jongrong”, which had some scenes of Ramayana engraved on its walls. This temple was from the 9th century AD. In Indonesia, another version of a story from Ramayana named Kakavin is very popular. This story is a bit different from that of Prambanan. Besides this, there were other various versions of Ramayana related stories, which were present in those early centuries after Christ, and also proves itself that Ramayana was very popular among Indonesian people before advent of Islam. It is also an astonishing fact that the first international convention on Ramayana was organized in Indonesia, a few years back.
6) RAMAYANA IN LAOS:
When local people pronounce Laos in their language, it phonetically sounds like the name of one of the sons of Rama. Besides, the temple of Vat- She-Fum and Vat-Pa-Kev also depict many scenes of Ramayana on their walls. The temples of Vat-Pra-Kev and Vat-Sisket carry books that contain the epic of Ramayana. Lafont, a French traveler translated the story of, “Pa laka-Pa lama” in his book called, “P`ommachak”, in French. This book also deals with the story of Ramayana, which is still popular among the masses of Laos.
7) RAMAYANA IN THAILAND:-
The stories of Ramayana are still very popular among the masses. In the early centuries after Christ, many kings who ruled this country had Rama as the prefix or suffix in their name. Just like in India how we organize the play of Ramayana, till today, many dramatic versions of Ramayana are organised in Thailand as well. Similarly, many dramatic versions of Ramayana are still being organized in various South East Asian countries like Indonesia, Malaysia, and Cambodia.
8) RAMAYANA IN MALAYSIA:-
In Malaysia, plays are still organized today based on the stories of ‘HIKAYAT SERI RAMA’, written in the 14th century AD. Dalang society organize nearly 200-300 plays relating to Ramayana. Before commencement of the play people conduct various prayers and adulation revering RAMA and SITA.
9) RAMAYANA IN BURMA:-
King Kayanjhitha who reigned during 1084 –1112 AD; regarded himself as descendant of clan of Rama. Various books relating to the stories of Ramayana as earlier as 15 century AD are still found in Burma. Books like ‘Kavyadarsha’ , ‘Subhasit Ratanidhi’ are based on the stories of Ramayana. Zhang-Zhungpa, commentary of Ramayana was written by Taranath, which is not available in modern times. In Burma also various form of plays are conducted based on the stories of Ramayana.
10) RAMAYANA IN NEPAL:-
Oldest version of Ramayana, belonging ot 1075 AD is still found in Nepal.
11) RAMAYANA IN PHILIPPINES:-
Effect of stories of Ramayana can easily felt in the customs, traditions and legends of majority of masses. Prof Juon R Francisco found that in Marineo Muslims, legend based on Ramayana is popular, in which Rama has been depicted as Incarnation of God. Similarly among Magindanao or Sulu folk Muslims also various legends based on the stories of Ramayana are popular.
12) RAMAYANA IN IRAN:
In Hyderabad city, capital of Andhra Pradesh, there is museum name Salar Jung. There one portrait which is depicting a burly monkey having a very big stone in its hand. This portrait reminds one of Hanuman holding Dronagiri. Similarly Marco Polo in his book (translated by Sir Henry Yule in English) wrote at page no 302, vol II about a peculiar belief among Muslims, spread from Afghanistan to Morocco and Algeria. These Muslims believed that members of imperial house of Trebizond were endowed with short tails while medieval continentals had like stories about Englishmen as- Mathew Paris relates…. ; .
We are of the belief that if one seriously start investigating various legends prevalent, before advent of Islam and Christianity, in Arabic countries and European countries than existence of Ramayana and Mahabharata can be proved. Due to barbaric and dogmatic acts of these peoples wide range of literature and buildings of historical importance has been wiped out.
13) RAMAYANA IN EUROPE:
In Italy, when excavation were carried out in the remains of Etruscan civilization, then various houses were found having peculiar type of paintings on their wall. These paintings, upon closer investigation, seem to be based on the stories of the Ramayana. Some of the paintings shows peculiar persons having tails along with two men bearing bows and arrow on their shoulders, while a lady is standing besides them. These paintings are of 7 century BC. It should be remembered that once Etruscan civilization was spread over 75 pct of Italy.
Sir Henry Yule in his translation of works of Marco Polo has referred to the belief prevalent among Medieval Europeans that there Ancestors were having small tails. The same fact has been referred by Maharshi Dayananda in his magnum opus ‘Satyarth Prakash’. There Swamiji state that people of Europe were called as Vanaras (monkeys), due to their appearance in our epic like Mahabharata, Valmiki Ramayana etc. If we a analyse this statement in present context, then how are we going to define various statements like Kangaroos (Australian team) meet Men in Blue (Indian team) at Calcutta.
Similar sort of epithets were used during World war to describe armies of different countries or else we see that we have helicopters named cheetah etc. As these words(epithets) are just a way to describe different set of people, arms etc, similarly words like Rakshas, Vanaras, etc, were used in our legends. These facts clearly indicates that legends of Ramayana are not work of fiction and were very popular around the world .
14) RAMAYANA IN AFRICA(CONTINENT):
People of Ethiopia call themselves as descendants of Cushites. This word Cush is basically phonetic misnomer of Kush, the son of Rama. This fact is verily established by Shatapatha Brahamana, commentary on Vedas. These Brahmanas while explaining various mantras of Vedas uses many historical events to elucidate the topic.
Astonishingly in Shatapatho Brahamana we find reference regarding the rule of King Bharata (predecessor of Kauravas and Pandavas) in Rhodesia .
Besides many inconsistent legends inspired by epic of Ramayana are prevalent in African Communities and they basically refers to various activities of vanaras.
Egypt basically derives its name from Ajpati which is one of the name of forefather of Rama. If we analyse various legends prevalent in Egypt, there we will find references of Dasharatha (father of Rama). These facts can be very well established from various historical references in the Brahmanas (for the proof of it see our article Blunders of Indian/World history).
15) RAMAYANA IN NORTH AMERICAN AND SOUTH AMERICAN CONTINENTS:
Before Columbus discovered North American continent European people were not knowing about it. However A DE QNATREFAGES in his book, THE HUMAN SPECIES, categorically says that Chinese people were aware about the American continent and the use to have trade relations with them America was referred as Fad-Sang. Similarly in Japanese people it was known as Fad-See. Similarly, if we refer to various historical reference in Mahabharata, Valmiki Ramayana etc we will find that American continent has been referred as Patal Desh (Patal means below foot). If we geographically see then we will find that American continent is just below the Indian Subcontinent. We will throw greater light on this issue in our topic, BLUNDERS OF INDIAN HISTORY/WORLD HISTORY.
But for your reference we are providing you some prevalent legends.
a) Beautiful girl in Mexican tribal area till today are called as Ulopy. If we see in Mahabharata we find reference of Arjuna marrying girl named Ulopy who was daughter of King of Patal Desh.
b) W H Prescott in his book , ‘ History of conquest of Mexico’, provides various reference which prove that earlier civilization of American subcontinent have major similarities with that of Indian(Aryan) civilization.
However here we are providing you one reference which clearly state that Ramayana is not mythological epic but it bears historical testimony. According to writer of the book there is popular legend in Aztec community which state that a beautiful person named Quevtsal Katal came there from east and taught them various aspects of advanced civilization as a result his period was treated as golden era. He then went back to his original homeland because of persecution by some divine creature. This legends surprisingly does not throw light on the reasons why he returned.
Another interesting fact that has been stated by Prescott is that this legend is available in documented form. Now, none except Indian tradition can claim that they bear root to this legend. The same story has been narrated in Valmiki Ramayana, in Uttar-kand where it is mentioned that Salkantak Rakshas who dwelled in Lanka were persecuted by Vishnu. Due to this persecution they left Lanka and went to Patal Desh. The leader of this group was Sumali. According to Ramayana they lived in Patal Desh for long time. When they found condition congenial they returned to their homeland.
It is for readers to decide when such conclusive proof are there to establish that epic of Ramayana is not mythological legend but it is historical evidence which bears testimony to various legends prevalent around the world. Till today play named Ramasitotav is played in various communities of Mexico. To our amazement Rama has been mentioned in Bible, new testament, Matthew 2:18, where it is mentioned “his voice was heard in RAMA”. Rama is proper noun there, now it is for biblical society to define who was Rama and why he has been mentioned in Bible.
Even the name of Dasharatha and Ayodhya are there in Bible. We will be referring to these facts in Blunders of Indian/world History.
Now we would pose some tickling questions to the sickular historians:
1) Why month of fasting among Muslims is called Ramadhan?
2) Why place in Gaza Strip is called Ramallaha?
3) Why place in London is named as Ramsgate?
4) Why capital of Italy is known as Rome (misnomer of Rama)?
We can provide various examples where word Rama has been used as suffix or prefix with the names of various historical places/persons or misnomer of Rama has been used as name for historical places/persons. None of the historical evidence provides conclusive answer to these facts unless we take Indian historical evidences into account.
It is widely accepted that the King Alexander invaded India. It really sounds ironical that we are accepting this theory without any historical evidence, on the other hand we go on to deny existence of Rama despite various historical evidences are there to prove that he was not mythical but a historical Mahanayaka.
These historians in order to refute Rama’s existence are ridiculously harping the same old tone of Theory of Evolution which does not have any scientific proof. (Why and how theory of evolution gained importance will be dealt in our article – How the universe is created. The only thing of significance regarding theory of evolution, we want to state here is that it was a tool which was invented to challenge the draconian supremacy of church. The Church claimed that this world was created by God out of nothing and the age of this Universe is not more than 10000 years. With the help of evolutionary theory, the scientific world challenged the supremacy of the Church and overcame the clergy.
This is for readers to decide by themselves how they are going to treat Rama. We think that we have provided lot of food for thought. Those who are illogically biased may still refute the existence of Rama while those who are logical and believe that mythological character can never gain such world wide respect/reverence will start looking upon Rama from wider historical evidences.
Here we want to clarify following points:
1) Rama was a Mahanayaka, a legendary person who lived a pristine life and is an example to be emulated till today.
2) It’s immaterial whether Ramasetu, on which lot of controversy is being created, was built by Rama as far as proving authenticity of Rama is concerned. Regardless of whether they prove Ramasetu to be man-made or natural creation, existence of Rama cannot be denied.
3) Valmiki Ramayana is not fiction but an epic based on historical evidence.
For those who are questioning the existence of Rama, let them first justify whether their forefathers ever existed, using the same yardstick that they are using to question the existence of Rama. At least there are more evidences of Rama being a historical hero than the existence of forefathers of these historians.
Oh please you were never a Hindu. You say this to lure Hindus into converting. This is not a site for Christian proselytization. This is not an article about Christianity. You and Mac go proselytize elsewhere.
Right. So you say government census lists you as Hindus so you pass your self off as Hindu here. You are committing fraud by not providing correct information on the government census. You are Christian, that is the faith you believe in, not Hinduism and you made that clear.
Don’t care about your name. But you are committing fraud by providing false information on the government census. You are a Christian but you lie to the government census about being Hindu. You did change your religion as being Hindu or Christian is not in the government census that your falsely report, it is your faith that you believe in and practice, and your faith is Christianity as you yourself repeatedly said.
Watch your language here on this site, and knock it off with the name calling. You try to pose yourself as rational and telling everyone to watch how they speak, but fail to follow your own advice.
HI Ankur,
I agree with you about original sin. It is a straw man argument. It is a perfect way to tell people you are a screwed up person for doing nothing. Christians just claim you are born like that because of some ancient relative that ate some apple or some fruit from a forbidden tree, a.k.a. tree of knowledge. When I hear this, there are a ton of things wrong with it. Aside from the fact that christians are not okay with education and knowledge, but they also believe everyone inherits the sins of their ancestors. And it is only the christians that hold the secret. Isn’t that interesting. Only their god or son of god or holy ghost or what-ever the hell he is suppose to be because Christians can’t get his story right, is the only one who can save you. Convenient. That is what we call the biggest and oldest straw man argument in history.
Christians a liars and christianity hates education. Why else would their religion be against the adam and eve eating from the tree of knowledge. Loser and fools believe in such shit. no respect for that kind of mentality.
Let’s also not forget that Christians promote the devouring of a person, jesus, sucking on blood, and pray to torture. I have never seen any religion that worships a torture device.
I actually think you are the same person as Mr. Spanky. The fact that both of you write ridiculously long emails shows to me that both are the same freakin person. You fools are not tricking anyone else. I guess that is what christianity teaches you, to lie.
The difference between him and me is that. I am spiritual and he is religious. And we are not one person. I even dont go to church, I AM and I AM is with me.
Vicjag, you have no control on this site, so you do not tell anyone here what the next time they open their mouths they should say.
Mr. Spanky, seriously man, you have not solved the original problem. You have convinced your own biased mind, but you have not convinced anyone else. As I pointed out before, the original sin issue is reeking with history centrism. The fact that you put someone else’s sins on all of humanity is a straw man argument. It is the original straw man argument. It is a classic game, you first make a claim that humanity has a problem. And then you claim your religion and only your religion has the solution.
It reminds me of a movie I saw years ago. Where some european power went and spread a disease, secretly, in an innocent community. After that, they were the ones who came with a treatment for the disease. It was a strategy to make the europeans power look good and win the favor of the community. The people who put the disease in the community was the europeans and than they conveniently came up with a cure for that disease. hmmmmmmm, interesting.
Story above sounds very similar to christianity. They first inject an idea of original sin into a community and conveniently claim they have a solution which is jesus, the freak. Well the real solution is Meditation, Yoga, and Vedas. With the the trinity of Meditation, Yoga, and Vedas people will not even fall for the ridiculous idea original sin. If you don’t believe in that crap, you are already saved. If instead you believe everyone is divine, you don’t to believe you need some weirdio, a.k.a jesus, to die on a cross for anyone. Only nutt jobs believe that.
Tell me my brother, as surely as I worship the living God. Have you not stolen money (laxmidevi) from your mother’s purse or yr granny’s purse!
Tell me that you never did that.
Tell me that you never did nothing wrong in your whole life time and that you are the ONLY holy person arya samajist in the whole world and we are fools.
Tell me from the bottom of your heart if you are a man that you never did anything wrong.
AND BLESS ME.
Original sin is ancestral sin, that mankind shares in the Jewish original man Adam’s sin. That is different from people living life and making mistakes. We have karma for that, but we believe the true essence of people is divine. Life is about learning and growing.
And no I never stole money or anything else from my family or anyone. We believe that our actions have consequences, Karma. It is empowering. We shape our lives, and we do not live the shadow of anyone else’s errors. The Jewish mythological first man Adam’s mistake is his mistake for him to have worked out, not anyone else.
Original sin is the biggest scam on Earth. It is the original straw man argument.
I am a desi, brother. Why do you hate me? Why do you hate me so much and disregard my beliefs? What wrong have I done?
I came here to my own blood brothers to share wisdom and truth.
And, now you hate me! Why dont U crucify me, if it pleases U!
Brother,
Hindu is citizenship. I am hindu by birth and Bharatvarsh is my motherland. I am my mamas boy..
Hindu is not your property, it is my forefather’s property. My flesh and blood, I love as surely I worship the Living God.
And, I love you too, as you are my flesh and blood.
You are so lame Mac. You are not a Hindu. You spent countless comments denigrating Hinduism to promote Christianity. You made it clear you are Christian, so stop pretending to be one of us Hindus. No one needs religious bigotry and demonization twistedly passed off as love.
Another dishonest method of conversion by pretending to be Desi. Do you think we care? Do you think that will make us more vulnerable to your proselytization? You are wrong. It is better that a white man than a desi convert denigrating Hinduism. Any desi especially one who was once a Hindu that comes to this site demonizing Hinduism like you and Vicjag just like a white man is far worse. A Desi who converts to Christianity is one thing, I don’t agree with it but that is his choice, but for that Desi to come and denigrate Hinduism anywhere and especially on a Hindu site is quite another thing. So White men Mac and Vicjag, stop pretending to be Desi. That is a bad tactic.
Agniveer, should moderate this site better and not allow these hijackers to use this this for conversion purposes.
I can understand your ignorance. But, face the truth and the truth will save U. For me, my own blood U, I will never love you less.
It is you who ignorant, understand that, lost in your Middle Eastern Jewish mythology that you think is truth that everyone else in the entire world must follow. Our ancestral faith saves us, our ancestral way of seeing the Divine saves us, and has for thousands of years. And we don’t desperately need the entire world to follow our faith, we love others enough to let them not be Hindu, and let them find their own way to God.
Who cares if you are desi even if that were the case? You come here and denigrate demonize and insult our faith in repeated attempts to convert us to your faith and you wonder what you did wrong? Why were are not goo goo ga ga over you?
This is not a site for prostelyzation. Belief what you want, but don’t come here insulting Hinduism to get us to convert.
@Vignesh
—They will enjoy to standby and watch two of their enemies fighting among —
Don’t jump to conclusions, We’re enemy of none but to people who are against humanity. Show us one article of this website which instigate violence against Muslims or any other sect for that matter.
Our Muslims brothers know the intention of Agniveer. Just go to FB page of Agniveer & see how many muslims liked it.
Now remind me exactly which comment of mine I wrote as you put in quotes “You and Mac go PROSELYTIZE elsewhere”
It is about proselytizing, sad that neither you or Mac can be honest about that. You do that by pretending this is all just an intellectual logical exercise, but your true feelings come out, the violence and menace comes out in your comments. You pretend it is only about logic and you are above it all, but I think you use the rhetoric of logical arguments to hide behind. Heed your own words about not talking nonsense about other faiths.
Good. Thank you. There are so many comment threads so if you put something in quotes, also refer it when what you are quoting is not directly above in the comment you respond to.
“fight you people”
Fight huh.
You people huh.
Interesting. One the one hand you and Mac try to pass your selves off as one of us (Desi, or even Hindu) to ingratiate yourself like wolves in sheeps clothing, but your aggression comes through, and that you see us as you people the enemy, comes through.
You are committing fraud by not telling the truth to the government census that you are not Hindu in anyway but in fact a practicing Christian. The government census is meant to capture accurate data on the population. You knowingly provide false information instead of the fact that you are a practicing Christian not a Hindu.
Wow you are going to teach Agniveer some humility if he does not voluntarily confess his mistake. Interesting choice of words. Now if you actually spent time commenting on what Agniveer wrote and less time trying to proselytize and denigrating Hinduism. Here your comments are showing your cockiness and lack of humility in your attempts in comparative religion.
Agniveer should moderate this site better to prevent people from hijacking this site to proselytize their own faith.
These are your words in your final plea comment below “When I accepted Christ, it took me sometime to come out of original faith…” You are not a Hindu by your own admission, Your name does not make you a Hindu, your false report to government census does not make you a Hindu.
@VicJags
You didn’t make sense in any of your posts. Why are you so hell bent on changing Agniveer’s stance on Christianity? Isn’t it his website? He has every right to express what he feels right?
For once even if we agreed that Agniveer is novice, has zero knowledge etc on Bible, Jesus. He didn’t have time to read all of its visitors comments, so if you think that by posting few random comments can get you an apology then you’re mistaken.
Why don’t you make your own website and put the rebuttals there? Publish the articles on social media or where ever you feel can fetch you some readers & let the world know Agniveer’s level of ignorance.
Yes he does have a right to express his counter arguments to what Christians have said about Hinduism, which is what he did on this site. You want him to stop talking about Christianity, then first Christians need to stop talking and denigrating Hinduism. Agniveer very much has the right. Christians should take their own advice about limiting what they express about their feeling on other faiths. You are cunningly trying to stop people from speaking up against what things Christians have said by saying they have no right. You Christians say smack about Hindus so expect that we are going to have our own feeling which we will express, and our own counter arguments back. You don’t tell what us we can express. You are not the boss of us, especially when there has been zero limit on the nasty, ugly viscous things you Christians have said about Hinduism. By doing that you open your self up to criticism in any way we want to express it. There is something called freedom of speech, which protects freedom to say what others find offensive. Since Christian have no interest in changing any one of their many websites insulting Hinduism then we are going to counter it with more free speech. It is us standing up to you and the nasty things you say that upsets you and you want to silence us. This is not Pakistan, where the government terrorism people into silence but punishing people according to blasphemy laws. You want Christianity off limits but not Hinduism, you want to intimidate Hindus from speaking out and expressing themselves especially in response to what Christians have written, but you Christians say all the ugly things about Hinduism you feel like expressing.
@Zakir Naik
— Isn’t that your first complaint against Zakir Naik. —
NO our complaint is against HATE SPEECH. Every human being has a right to express anything what he feels, unless he is not inciting VIOLENCE. This is freedom, tolerance which you slaves of Jesus will never understand.
Agniveer team posted rebuttal after rebuttal of Zakir’s claims, they demanded a ban on him only after he delivered hate speech against non-believers.
—When I present my case,—
That’s my point, where’s your case? Where are your counter arguments backed by facts? All i see is load of rhetorical posts demanding an apology without putting any facts?
Now, this might get into your peanut size brain that people can be offended by anything.
A guy might believe in Mickey Mouse as son of God. People who’re making cartoon of MM are offending him, what should he do then?
@ VICJAGS
There was a swami hailed even by vivekananda as the perfect man in northern kerala. He was Chattambi swamikal . He was a great critique of christianity at time where resources to study history of religion was difficult . Now we have internet.He was saviour of sanatana dharma from evil missionaries to some extent . But no one listened to him properly which is reason why hindus are becoming minorities in kerala. .Here thing is no on is objecting jesus . the very term christ is krishna in greek it is kristos . 300 years after death of jesus paul the pharisee who has not even seen jesus and who was very much against christianity ( actual term would be jesuism ). He is father of christianity . what he did was he was agent of mixing up . Crucifixion was punishment given for blasphemy in rome and many part of europe .Paul , he mixed every aspects of roman mythological heroes , sun god mithra , spanish hero who is represented as one died for whole mankind in spanish folks and other myths such that no one could understand it properly.He assosciated these characteristics to physical jesus and made him a god. Moreover sun worship has asosciation with cross . Everything which christianity has is paganism and judaism fused to physical jesus.Even christianity has absurd teaching that animals have no souls. jesus resurrection is a mere myth as stephen knapp has said in his book of “vedic influence in ancient cultures”.It is actually after paul emperor constantine used pauls ideologies further to added further stories . even miracles , giving bread to thousand is based on roman mythology. jesus was no god or divine . What constantine did was destroying pagan shrines by grafting and copying pagan rituals to his belief for political dominance. But still they call other pagans as evil and papish . So one can understand that christianity is based on combination of various pagan beliefs currupted and mixed yet calling others evil means they donot no what they are believing.Even greek gospels have nothing to do with christianity. paul and his followers copied greek gospels , and return of christ is actually paganism inspired from east.This is how this religion spread , that is blasphemy and destruvtion for political dominance of rome . When we seperate pagan elements one by one christianity is left with nothing . So what christians did was inculturation that destroyed rome and its culture . We donot know may be jesus was inspired , but there are many questions regarding his historicity still now and debate is going now . John the baptist a mandean was the one who baptized jesus and that religion has roots in indian philosophy . they didnot start any religion or anything . it was spirituality there . So what i want to say is that sanatana dharma is not a man made religion . You donot need to have converted to christianity as jesus inspired by john was not a crusader.By believing in our dharma u can respect jesus . Christ has nothing to do with jesus. It was added to jesus later . That is whole story of jesus is based on krishnaism and buddhism . To be frank we still donot have actual figure of jesus before paul. Modern scholars are unclear about the very historicity of jesus . Even gospels were not written eye witness . It was added to him later by 150 yrs after the so called death of jesus . Christianity is 90 percent politics and 10 percent spirituality. By converting u have made our great saints fools because they fought for our dharmas revival during colonial rule.These christian missionaries donot respect our dharma , why because by accusing one religion only they can believe . You can visit website of chattambi swamikal on internet to know what i told . Many christians in kerala are now understanding fault of conversion to foreign faith.
Hari, let us not get side tracked by these Christian proselytizers who are trying to hijack this thread for conversion. Don’t assume what he tells you is true that he was ever a Hindu. Even if he was so what. His conversion is his own business, and has zero impact in our saints. It does not make them fools just because he converted. That is silly. When he comes to this site to proselytize promoting Christianity and denigrating Hinduism then it is our dharma is to speak up against that. Don’t bother trying to make him the center of this thread by trying to get him to realize the error of his ways in converting out. I think Mac and Vic are pretending to have been Desi and former Hindus as slick ways to ingratiate themselves to Hindus and lure us into conversion. Oh they converted so maybe there is something to it and we should as well. Don’t fall for it. Stick to countering his arguments. But like I said even if he were once a Hindu so what. He has stated he is a practicing Christian, and he is here not writing in a calm way on the points in the article of this thread that he disagrees with but telling people to shut up, trying to silence us, and also denigrating Hinduism while promoting Christianity in his comments just like Mac. They want Christianity off limits but Hinduism not, and want what ugly things they say about Hinduism to go unchallenged by us, while having repeated put Hinduism down here.
None of my ancestors of about 7 generations, I know have never practiced any vedic religion.
Apostle Thomas came and converted about 300 half naked brahmins (suryavanshis) doing sun worship at the coast. Apostle Thomas performed a miracle sitting in his boat. He took water in his palm and sent it to his God and it never came down in full view of those 300 brahmins. He also spoke in their language.
Apostle Paul was a rabbi (teacher of law) and a pharisee. His name was Saul until Jesus visited him and changed his name to Paul. Saul was in charge of executing those who follow Jesus Christ (The Way). The Sanhedrin had appointed Saul to execute Jesus followers. Paul was the student of Raban Gamaliel, the Elder, author of Mishnah and Talmud; a Member of Sanhedrine (jewish court) as also he was the neighbour of Jesus Christ in Jerusalem. Saul executed a lot of early christians before Jesus appeared to him on the way to Damacus and Jesus said: “Saul, why do you persecute me?”. This is after Jesus’ resurrection. Saul was blinded for 3 days and night.
Animal do you spirits (ruah) not soul, soul is the covering of the spirit. As Paul says: “Whether their (animal’s) spirits go up or down, I dont know”. The reason the animals are dumb is that when the Serpent came and seduced Adam and Eve; and they ate the fruit, which God told them not to eat. All animals remained dumb, they didnt stopped Adam and Eve from eating. So God took away their tongue means “ability to speak” like humans. Until then they were speaking with Adam and Eve.
Secondly, christianity came to India the same decade Jesus resurrected.
Thirdly, if you understand Paul, you understand 40% of the scriptures. He was a pharisee Rabbi. He had two citizenship Greek and Israeli. He spoke more than 3 languages.
“So again request you to let us follow our own path. If you find it troubling, develop more websites like this, teach your people about vedas and upanishads. Tell them about your Gods, and you can do all of this without involving Christianity or Jesus. I have no issues as long as you refrain yourself with that.”
Every single Christian should follow this advice, including you and Mac. If you Christians have said nothing ever about Hinduism and stuck only to the bible without speaking of Hinduism, then there would be no need for us to say anything about Christianity, to counter the false things you say. But not in any of the centuries has Christianity done that and neither have you or Mac in your comments here. Agniveer has the right to counter claims by Christians in his writings.
Hindu word is a foreign word, its a persian word. Those other people of middle-east called the residents of Indus valley as Hindus. So phonetic variance is there like Indu, Indi, Indus, Hindi, Hindu, Shindhu and Brits called us Ind-ian. There is no such thing as hinduism. Moghuls specifically used this word to differentiate themselves from us. There were hundred of small kings and tribes. They were not united as Bharat. It was Brits who united today’s India.
I will give you the four way classification of the religions of this world.
Daniel Defoe described the original definition as follows: “Religion is properly the Worship given to God, but ’tis also applied to the Worship of Idols and false Deities.” At the turn of the 19th century, in between 1780 and 1810, the language dramatically changed: instead of “religion” being synonymous with spirituality, authors began using the plural, “religions”, to refer to both Christianity and other forms of worship. Therefore, Hannah Adams’s early encyclopedia, for example, had its name changed from An Alphabetical Compendium of the Various Sects… to A Dictionary of All Religions and Religious Denominations.
In 1838, the four-way division of Christianity, Judaism, Mahommedanism (archaic terminology for Islam) and Paganism was multiplied considerably by Josiah Conder’s Analytical and Comparative View of All Religions Now Extant among Mankind. Conder’s work still adheres to the four-way classification, but in his eye for detail he puts together much historical work to create something resembling our modern Western image: he includes Druze, Yezidis, Mandeans, and Elamites [Persians/Indians] under a list of possibly monotheistic groups, and under the final category, of “polytheism and pantheism”, he lists Zoroastrianism, “Vedas, Puranas, Tantras, Reformed sects” of India as well as “Brahminical idolatry”, Vaishnavism, Shivism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Lamaism, “religion of China and Japan”, and “illiterate superstitions”.
The only thing Agniveer said in reference to Christianity on this article is this “We also believe that if barabaric religion like Christinity and Islam have not gained popularity than we would have more datas to prove our point conclusively. These two semetic religion have inflicted unparrelled havoc on historical datas and buildings. They destroyed all the libraries/monuments of historical importance which does not confer their beliefs.”
That Christians and Muslims have destroyed non-Christian and non-Muslim information is something that is said in Western countries as well. Agniveer has said nothing new that Westerners have not already said. So if you have a problem with that, then you have a problem with many in the West to begin with.
And this “The only thing of significance regarding theory of evolution, we want to state here is that it was a tool which was invented to challenge the draconian supremacy of church. The church use to claim that this world was created by God out of nothing and the age of this Univerese is not more than 10000 years. By the help of evolutionary theory scientific world challenged the supremacy of churh and overcame the clergy.)”
But that was not about Christianity it was more this this author’s view on evolution theory and its purpose.
Here is just one link that has nothing to do with Hinduism or Indians on this. There is a lot of work in the West extremely critical of Christianity and its devastating destruction of ancient knowledge. So if you have a problem with that you have a problem with a lot of Westerners and Agniveer’s reference to such destruction in a few sentences on this article is nothing compared to that http://freetruth.50webs.org/A1.htm
My fellow Hindus this site is actually worth going through each its sections,each of the tabs http://freetruth.50webs.org/Index.htm . Let yourself know how Westerners have criticized Christianity. Christianity is not from Europe. It is from the Middle East. Jesus is not a European, is is not a White man, but a Middle Eastern Jew. Europeans were converted and often times not gently. Every nasty thing they have said about Hinduism they first said it to Europeans and ancient European religions, then to the people in the Americas and Africa they encountered.
The term “Ancient of Days” and “Lord of Hosts” stands for Yeshua Ha Mashaich.
Jesus said: Before Abraham was, I AM (Yah).
It is still there in London museum and else where. They have coins from Abraham’s time. The cylinder of Cyrus is still there. They still have the mummy of Pharoah of Egypt intact, whom Moses faced. Also Jesus’ cave and cave of machpelah were all patriarchs and matriarchs were laid is still there. Tomb of Rachel is there. House of Jesus Christ, Soddom and Gommorah are visitor’s places. There are so much biblical archeology of ancient times still there.
What do you have? temples!!!!
The only way to destroy foundation of christianity is by spreading chattambi swamikal teachings across india . He was a great man . If this guy is trying to hijack our website we shud either immediately sack him or we shud convert him by agniveer iniation , because these creeds are enemies of this country . when christianity is loosing in west , they r now trying to fool indians. Indian swamis shud not just medidate in den , they shud come forward .
They shud clearly differentiate between vedic and non vedic people or aryan and non aryan .Sanatanis shud not be shocked to see aghoris and nath yogis . They r non vedic and non aryan and are not part of vedic culture , even though they orginated from vedic peoples.Animism and cannibalism is not vedic even though they worship cosmic energy which vedas prescribe . donot confuse with non vedic sects . we shud immediately stop these non vedic rituals .
Then counter his arguments that he makes here but don’t try to convert him back. You make him the center then you revolving around changing him. This is not a thread about him. This is about Ram. When they try to hijack the thread speak up and counter what they said.
As for what is Vedic or not, let us not be intolerant like other faiths have shown towards difference within their ranks and towards other faiths. Point out if something is Vedic or not is useful and informative but any non vedic practices that do not violate the law or is not unhealthy I don’t think we should have stopped. Tolerance and diversity is Sanatana Dharma strength. I don’t think cannabalism is a problem in India in any faith, what an odd thing to bring up. That is more a pacific island thing. Plus it is illegal anyway.
What do you want to say about Aghoris? Arent they vedic people? What about devadashi pratha (temple prostitution) practiced by brahmins? What about Sati pratha? What about child marriage and dowry? Are these all not vedic practice? Veda calls meat mahaprasad? In vedic sacrifices they kill by jhatka, the most unimaginable and brutal practice I have ever seen. Why dont you stop those practices? Do you try to stop them? Purushamedha, Balamedha and Ashwamedha are all vedic practices. Do U follow them? Why do you have to ring the bell when you go to temple?
Try me! And call your chatammbi along.
As I said before, you keep posting false things about Vedas and Dharmic people. I asked you before Mr. Spanky, if you are going to make a claim about either, provide proof from an approved translated copy of the Vedas:
1. Tell use how translated the that copy of the Vedas
2. Which verse you are talking about
3. Which Vedic group approves it
4. Where can I go buy or checkout a copy of it.
5. Who published that copy of the Vedas.
You did not even do a proper Perva Paksha and you make up shit about us. Before you make claims about us, it is important to first understand where we stand not what some christian extremist says where we stand. If you just want to play the game of making up shit, you will not convince anyone. It sounds to me like you want to spread lies to try and convert. Seriously you come on this site and try and do that, wrong place man. Here many people want to learn the truth, and your lies about the Vedic faith will get you no where. You really are a sick and perverted person.
And in regards to jesus and his so called place of rest. They actually do not know if the one they claim is the real one. They are assuming it. As I said before, Christianity is a fabricated religion. It was made up by the Romain emperor constantie for power. He needed to create a book, so he took out of the hundreds of different christian books that contradicted each other only the ones that didn’t. In was only a handful that didn’t. And even those contract each other, but they contract each other the least compared to the other books. Your butt buddy constantie killed off anyone else that supported any of the other books. We still have remanence of the books that were excluded from the bible. And christains today are stuck in a quagmire. They don’t know what to do about it. Because much of the other books contradict constantie’s bible. It’s so funny to see all this. And the most important point is Jesus didn’t even write any of his shit down. The fact that the religion is history centric, no one can replicate what he did, so now you have to believe in secondary source. WEAK. With the Vedas, people can replicate the experience what the Rishis have done. So the source is the highest state of experience during meditation and Yoga. And people have replicated and we keep it current. Unlike your christian crap where it isn’t current and unreproducible. The biggest joke on earth is the christian religion with its contradictions and fake bullshit where it won’t teach people the biggest and highest proof of all. How to reproduce the experience that their top dog had so everyone can become the jesus. Instead there jesus was a power hunger retard that just wanted to make people follow him. Message of God is against that. We don’t need intermediaries, we just need God.
Jay , I have a small doubt that is when we search internet we find that swami vivekanada advised meat and beaf and he even ate meat in america . he says ancient brahmins were considered non hindus unless they eat meat.
First the whole context is important. Agniveer already wrote an article on how there is no beef in the Vedas and went to explain the misconceptions that have been promoted. Vivekananda wrote that in reference to Smritis (not the Vedas) being limited in time to a particular age and local customs while the Vedas are eternal. Plus he does not reference where he got that it ever such a time that it was ok for Brahmins to eat beef, so have to take that statement with a grain of salt. Nevertheless the context Vivekananda brought that up was in reference to Smritis being particular to an age and then age related practices reforming and stopping in the next age and not to the eternity of the Vedas.
“…But beyond this there is a still greater difficulty. There are two sorts of truth we find in our Shâstras, one that is based upon the eternal nature of man — the one that deals with the eternal relation of God, soul, and nature; the other, with local circumstances, environments of the time, social institutions of the period, and so forth. The first class of truths is chiefly embodied in our Vedas, our scriptures; the second in the Smritis, the Puranas. etc. We must remember that for all periods the Vedas are the final goal and authority, and if the Purânas differ in any respect from the Vedas, that part of the Puranas is to be rejected without mercy. We find, then, that in all these Smritis the teachings are different. One Smriti says, this is the custom, and this should be the practice of this age. Another one says, this is the practice of this age, and so forth. This is the Âchâra which should be the custom of the Satya Yuga, and this is the Achara which should be the custom of the Kali Yuga, and so forth. Now this is one of the most glorious doctrines that you have, that eternal truths, being based upon the nature of man, will never change so long as man lives; they are for all times, omnipresent, universal virtues. But the Smritis speak generally of local circumstances, of duties arising from different environments, and they change in the course of time. This you have always to remember that because a little social custom is going to be changed you are not going to lose your religion, not at all. Remember these customs have already been changed. There was a time in this very India when, without eating beef, no Brahmin could remain a Brahmin; you read in the Vedas how, when a Sannyasin, a king, or a great man came into a house, the best bullock was killed; how in time it was found that as we were an agricultural race, killing the best bulls meant annihilation of the race. Therefore the practice was stopped, and a voice was raised against the killing of cows. Sometimes we find existing then what we now consider the most horrible customs. In course of time other laws had to be made. These in turn will have to go, and other Smritis will come. This is one fact we have to learn that the Vedas being eternal will be one and the same throughout all ages, but the Smritis will have an end. As time rolls on, more and more of the Smritis will go, sages will come, and they will change and direct society into better channels, into duties and into paths which accord with the necessity of the age, and without which it is impossible that society can live. Thus we have to guide our course, avoiding these two dangers; and I hope that every one of us here will have breadth enough, and at the same time faith enough, to understand what that means, which I suppose is the inclusion of everything, and not the exclusion. I want the intensity of the fanatic plus the extensity of the materialist. Deep as the ocean, broad as the infinite skies, that is the sort of heart we want. Let us be as progressive as any nation that ever existed, and at the same time as faithful and conservative towards our traditions as Hindus alone know how to be….”
link here “REPLY TO THE ADDRESS OF WELCOME AT MADURA”
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_3/Lectures_from_Colombo_to_Almora/Reply_to_the_Address_of_Welcome_at_Madura
It actually sounds similar to what you said in your comment just above regarding clearly distinguishing what is Vedic from practices that are non vedic local practices to be discarded.
@Hari
Vivekanada was not a Sanskrit master. He was under false impression that Max Muller and his team has good intention to translate ‘sacred-texts’. He believed them blindly, hence the confusion.
Meat eating is strictly prohibited in Vedas. So there is no question of consuming beef.
Excellent point Ashish. Vivekanda was not a Sanskrit master. That is a common thing many Sanskrit scholars know.
It is called Mahaprasad. Eating is about faith. If you faith is weak, you will eat veggies only. However, again eating is about faith, let it not become a stumbling block for your brother. If his conscience has a stumbling block, do not eat for your brother’s sake in his presence. And always thank the Provider (JEHOVAH-JIREH: “The Lord will Provide).
Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh
Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh
Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh
Adonai Elohim Tzva’ Ot.
Asher Hayah
V’ Hoveh V’ Yavo.
It is called Mahaprasad.
On youtube, just type “mass animal sacrifice” or “Gadhimai animal sacrifice” and see hindus brutally (jhatka) kill thousands of cows in one single event. It is vedic brutality. They even dont know how to kill an animal.
Eating is about faith. If you faith is weak, you will eat veggies only. However, again eating is about faith, let it not become a stumbling block for your brother. If his conscience has a stumbling block, do not eat for your brother’s sake in his presence. And always thank the Provider (JEHOVAH-JIREH: “The Lord will Provide).
Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh
Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh
Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh
Adonai Elohim Tzva’ Ot.
Asher Hayah
V’ Hoveh V’ Yavo.
Kosher or halal way of slaughtering is by far the most cruel way of killing an animal (not that I support animal slaughter). But the bestial way in which the poor animals are made to suffer during the slaughter gives one an insight into the mentality of Jews and Muslims.
http://www.natallnews.com/page.php?id=18
This is a spiritual subject and it is my domain, I will explain to you. Koshar or Halal is a God approved method of killing an animal. In Koshar killing they take a very sharp knife, twist the neck so the animal feels little pain. The shochet needs to cut through the Trachea, Esophagus, carotid artery and the jugular vein. Both of these shield the esophagus and trachea at the place where the cut is to take place. This would lead to a fairly quick bleed out with the animal becoming nonsensical in a matter of seconds. The brain stops receiving blood supply and oxygen; the animal is clinically dead without any more of the pain.
Whereas in vedic Jhatka method. The animal’s body goes into shock and the life is trapped into the body for a long while as it bleeds thru. This is the MOST brutal way of killing an animal.
In modern times, they have invented new method at commercial killings. They give very high powered shock directly to the head and the brain stops working.
Pain is felt by the animal, if its brain is still working.
So, when you twist someone’s neck, you feel very little pain, huh. And you are an authority in Jewish methods of killing, I believe. Wow! You should be awarded a Nobel for this piece of shit. So, when the head is severed from the body in jhatka, does the brain stop receiving blood supply and oxygen from the body or it does not, moron?
For Koshar method I gave you the scientific reason already. They do not twist the neck to break it or to suffocate it. They twist the neck to get the right spot as also the animal should feel little pain in that its body would not go in shock. It only takes few seconds.
In Jhatka method, the body goes in shock, it hardens and traps both blood and life in the body. Then gradually for minutes as it starts to loosen up and bleed, the life lives the body painfully. This is extreme brutality.
God has made mankind the Lord over all living things. That does not mean that you have to treat animals so brutally.
Scientific reason! Are you kidding me? Are there are any such points in the neck where an animal feels little pain when its throat is being slit?
I would ask the readers to look at how animals are killed in the kosher method in youtube and judge for themselves if that poor animal writhes in pain or not.
In jhatka, the brain is severed from the body. We know that the brain interprets the signals from the body that it receives through the nervous system via the spinal column. Now, theoretically, in jhatka when the brain is no longer receiving any signals from the body, it is plausible to assume that the the pain generated in the system is not being interpreted at all and hence not felt although we can never say that with certainty. It is amazing that you will go to any length to defend such a cruel practice.
In commercial butchering , they use high powered electric shock. Have you heard the term “red meat”? It is full of blood, the tissues hold the blood although the animal is dead. The animal instantly dies because the high powered electric shock given directly to their head FRIES their brian in an instant. The animal is dead instantly but the body cannot recognize it, it goes into shock and holds the blood in its tissues. Jhatka method is the same kind but extremely brutal. With Jhatka method, the animal will still walk a few feet before its senses starts to realize and it fall. The shock contracts the muscles and the tissues hold the blood and life in shock.
I will contain on this blog with one statement. Vedic sacrifice of Jhatka is EXTREMELY BRUTAL. I have already explained to you the scientific reason of clean Koshar kill. But for you I have a video proof. You can see it for yourself. You do not need no further proof and there are many vedic sacrifice videos on youtube which are self-explanatory. You decide.
Here is the link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quvkfkU-KZk
and the title of the video is “Animal Sacrifice at Gadhimai Festival “. There is a lot more videos on vedic sacrifice, brutal enogh to make me loose my appetite, on youtube.
You will definitely not lose your appetite over this for sure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLzNUG-GLRg
This one video is worth more than a thousand words.
I did watched the video. That is what I said, it takes few seconds and the animal should feel little pain for a while as it gives up its life. Animal moves because of the blood letting, it has to be that way. It is the most efficient method approved by God to kill an animal. Koshar is one slit………period.
Whereas Jhatak traps both life and blood in the body for a longer while and it is the most brutal way of killing an animal. Even the big cats (tigers and lions) dont kill their prey that way. They bite at the neck draining the blood from the main vein. Jhatka method is more wild and brutal than those big cats.
I do hunting and fishing. Both gracefully and with respect for the lives of animals I kill for food.
Do U even understand when I say “the life and blood are trapped in Jhatka method for a longer while”? Do U understand the meaning of it? German nazis wanted to kill all non-blue-eyed people and that is what they did. And you are showing me a video of those nazis BIG LIES to support your idiocy of brutal vedic killing of animals!
The sting of death is in every life. Every life feels the sting of death when the life is about to pass away. Let us not make it a sting of death as BRUTAL.
Unfortunately, the dead animals will not be able to give us a first-hand account of their ordeal. In any case, I have already given you the reason as to why the jhatka method (the severance of the head from the torso from a single blow of a sharp object) should be painless (It is an assumption though). You simply do not make sense when you wildly assume that it is more painful and brutal than the kosher method.
Chicken’s neck is so small that it is difficult to Koshar a chicken and it also has feathers. They cut the chicken’s whole neck and you can see the chicken will still walk all over and flutter its wings. A beheading can be a messy and extremely painful thing to see, let alone experience. It has been shown that random brain activity can continue for many minutes, ending in a flurry of activity reminiscent of a brain seizure.
Jhatka method TRAPS the life and blood both inside the body as it goes in SHOCK and it is the most cruel method. When they go deer hunting they usually either shoot right at the heart or brain, the deer will collapse on the spot. If shot at any other part of the body the deer will run half a mile and die in pain.
We are not comparing jhatka with a fatal shot to the heart or to the brain. You will need to understand the mechanism of pain in order to come to a conclusion. If the brain does not receive pain impulses from the body, how will it know pain? You will have to watch the Russian headless dog experiment video for more. I am not providing the link, just search in Youtube.
Try experimenting yourself at home. Catch a lizard (readily available at home) and cut its tail. You will see that the tail would move for minutes together and lizard will live. In Jhatka when you cut the animals head with one stroke, its body goes in shock and tightens the muscles. So its tissues holds blood, which gives life to its body. The brain works and the spin also receives and sends impulses and IT DOES FEEL PAIN for a long while.
In one of my above posts, I have mentioned 7 commands God gave to Noah. This is the last one “not to eat flesh cut from a LIVING animal “. This is the wisdom of the law. You DO NOT CUT A LIVING ANIMAL INTO PIECES. You have to first kill it and then cut it into pieces.
There is a limit to sophistry. The lizard’s tail is detachable from the body and the lizard can regrow a tail. The starfish also has this ability. For more see this link:
http://knowledgesalad.com/useful/why-does-a-severed-lizards-tail-still-move/
Try to understand as to how we feel pain and why some feel that a quick decapitation is painless or comparatively less painful than other methods of slaughtering. And what is this wisdom of not cutting up into pieces of a “living animal” that you keep harping on? Are you trying to suggest that the poor animal does not feel any pain when it is being killed?
SDC, I have already explained to you in details . I have given you both scientific reason and spiritual from the Scriptures, I am again going to quote the scientific reason.
“The shochet (knife) needs to cut through the Trachea, Esophagus, carotid artery and the jugular vein. Both of these shield the esophagus and trachea at the place where the cut is to take place. This would lead to a fairly quick bleed out with the animal becoming nonsensical in a matter of seconds. The brain stops receiving blood supply and oxygen; the animal is clinically dead without any more of the pain.”
Either one has to go through these 2 processes of slaughter and give us an insight into the amount of pain generated which is impracticable or one has understand the mechanism of pain to come to any rational conclusion. In a brain dead person also, the body lives but the person is declared clinically dead. When the brain dies, we are at a point of no return. When in kosher, the connection between the body and the brain is still intact through the spinal column, the brain is able to interpret the pain signals from the body. In fact, the kosher method is in some ways similar to strangulation in so far as the trachea is severed thereby hindering the supply of air.
These jesus slaves are such morons. The run around talking about some living god. they actually don’t understand that is hurting their cause not helping. In Dharmic faiths it is clear that God is not born. So when you say God is born you make your god wimpy and not really a GOd. Just a man masquerading as a God. Some of my good friends are Sikh and that is what they also point out. God is not born. If we believe that, we open the door for God being born as dog, elephant or anything else. God is beyond being born. God is just the highest state of consciousness in all the universes. If these retard jesus freaks don’t get that, they really have some major religious ego mental problems.
Jay and Ashish
Thanks for your comments and my doubt is cleared , so have we bharathians made a mistake by making vivekananda a revolutionary of hinduism .
So were Ram and krishna against these horrific customs because some people again take from ramayan and tell that Ram had ate meat and all. Is there anything relevant.
I did not say that about Vivekananda. I said to read the whole context of what he actually wrote which was not about promoting beef eating but about how Smritis are local and age specific while the Vedas are eternal. In fact he showed evolution and progress from the Smritis. He did a lot of good work for the time for Hinduism.
I don’t see the big deal about eating other meats (besides beef) and seafood like poultry, lamb, fish etc… you are allowed to eat meat and seafood in Hinduism, it is not mandatory for all Hindus to be strict vegetarians. Vegetarianism is seen as better and is encouraged if you are able to do it, but meat eating (beef excluded) is not forbidden. Most Hindus I know including family members eat meat of some sort (but not beef) and/or seafood. So for me it matters not if Ram and Krishna ate other meats. Their spiritual teachings does not hinge on being vegetarian or not.
FYI I say this as a vegetarian. A person is not necessarily a better person just because he or she does not eat meat. The Dalai Lama eats meat, and i think he is further along the spiritual path than I. He tried but his body could not take a pure vegetarian diet. Lots of friends I know also tried vegetarianism but is was not right for their bodies. Some did stick to it. When I look to Ram or Krishna, I don’t care about their diet. I am interested in what they taught. With regards to meat eating in general, I think not everyone can or should. But what we should be concerned about is how livestock are treated while alive and how they are killed. There is no need for them to suffer. While alive they should be treated well, and when time to slaughter them it should be done with the least amount of suffering. There is a woman here named Temple Grandin http://www.templegrandin.com/ who is an amazing woman who worked with slaughterhouses to create more humane practices so the animals suffer very little. She is also amazing because she has autism. Why would a person who cares about animals work in the slaughterhouses? Well people who care for animal welfare probably are most needed in the slaughterhouses to make sure animals are not suffering needlessly. Her work was very beneficial and helped improve the standards for slaughterhouses. Buy from companies who engage in animal welfare – like free range, and no cage, etc… If you can be a vegetarian, that is good, that is not the be all end all.
Agniveer also moderate this site for the length of comments. Spammers like Mac post these ridiculously copied and pasted long posts that go on forever.
Agniveer you need to do better moderating of this site to make sure it is not hijacked by people bringing up topics that have nothing to do with the article. Don’t let Christian proselytizers like Mac and Vic bring up theology when you did not even bring up theology but referred to history, and use this site for proselytization on top of it. And the length of these posts by guys like them is way too long. This is not a place for a dissertation.
CHRISTIANITY WILL BE DESTROYED
Our faith seeks not to destroy any other faith. We leave them be. We don’t have to agree with their theology and we are free to express theological disagreement, and we most certainly should speak up against anything that denigrates and abuses Hinduism, but that is all.
chattampi swamikal of kerla had written a book on analysis of christianity name christ mat darpanam. i had gone through that book.it was published in 1890. most important to note is that this book was inspired from 13th chapter of satyarth prakash by swami dayanand on christianity
Jay, your right, Mac, a.k.a Mr. Spanky can’t think for himself. The proof is the copy and paste BS he keeping doing on here. What a total joke. Clearly the robot age has come upon us. Mr. Spanky is one of the rudimentary kind that can just copies and pastes. No advanced features what so ever. His system has overloaded and now he has gone into infinite loop. Core dump on its way. That will be a final grand act where he floods the page with a copy of the entire book of nonsense, a.k.a the bible. Be careful it can flood your emails around the world. Mr. Spanky, go get a life.
AGNIVEER SHUD STUDY CHATTAMBI SWAMIKAL TEXT TO KNOW THAT CHRISTIANITY IS FALSE . THEY R WORSHIPPING DEMON BY THEIR DEEDS . THEY SHOULD BE WIPED OFF FROM THIS PLANET . SON OF BITCHES.
It is not our faith to say that others worship demons. That is what Christians like Mac and many others say as per their faith. The other paths that other people may follow is not relevant to us. We defend the dharma from their nasty depictions and distortions of our own faith. That is our duty. No one here is advocating any violence against them and neither should you.
LOL! God bless.
Oh Vic, Agniveer criticized the destruction of ancient knowledge by Christians here on this site which is well understood in the West. He did not even engage in criticizing Christian theology on this article but actions by Christians in history against non-Christian sources of documentation and information. He is free to do so but he didn’t on this article. So are going on about Christian theology when Agniveer hadn’t on this article. Discussion of history is going to come from research from others. So yes showing sites that go into detail of Christian destruction of non-Christian information is valid. Especially a site like that which references its source documentation.
You talk about mudslinging tactics yet you have repeated gone off name calling. you tout so much how rational you are but you do your bit in mudslinging. Watch your filthy mouth on this site. You think you come off as superior by calling people morons, idiots, retards. No my dear you do not, certainly not rational and cerebral but highly emotional and silly. All you have shown is how thin your skin is and how quickly you get violent and nasty when people stand up to you. My God you talk about teaching Agniveer humility but your post are so full of arrogance and haughtiness and pride.
My argument is not Agniveer can criticize Christianity because others have, but pointing out that what Agniveer said in a few sentences of Christian action (not even theology) is nothing compared to what others have done. It was a criticism about YOU and YOUR overblown huffing and puffing reaction to barely any few sentences that did not even have anything on Christian theology. You are far from rational, but highly emotional have have yet brought up in any of your posts any thing about what Agniveer actually did write here. You went off a the war path about everything else. Not rational, but highly emotional and irrelevant.
You are not a Hindu, you stated you are a practicing Christian, and have left your old faith. You already acknowledged you changed your faith, and are not a Hindu. Whether or not you want to go and change it officially, it is a lie that you put down that you are Hindu for the government census. You can make all the excuses you want does not change that you are lying to the government. The government does not force conversion, the census by government relies upon its people to tell the truth and you did not do that.
Your post in the next two days better refer to the only thing that Agniveer said about Christianity which was about actions of Christians in history against the libraries and historical data and building and not Christian theology. Don’t even think about bring up Christian theology not one thing and falsely accuse Agniveer of saying anything about that. He is free to do so but he did not here, so you better write about what he did write about Christianity which is this “We also believe that if barabaric religion like Christinity and Islam have not gained popularity than we would have more datas to prove our point conclusively. These two semetic religion have inflicted unparrelled havoc on historical datas and buildings. They destroyed all the libraries/monuments of historical importance which does not confer their beliefs.”
“I will continue typing my long post, which will definitely interest our Muslim brothers,” You’ve said this more than once. You seem oddly concerned about Muslims observing your interacting with Hindus. Who cares. You think that is going to intimidate us like we will keep quiet so they don’t over hear us engaging you. No. That is what? Another threat or warning from you? Like we are going to be more vulnerable to Muslims because of your attacks on us so we should keep quiet and not stand up to you. No. Christian nastiness towards Hinduism is nothing new and neither is Islamic nastiness. Who cares who else reads.
There are no conversions by allurement. Yes, christians donate and give to poors not for converting them. Christian countries are donating since centuries to poor countries. They send ships full of stuff.
See it is God’s CALL. You cannot convert anybody by force for you cannot change a human heart from outside. Circumcision is the circumcision of heart, change of heart.
Romans 11:19 For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.
Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Romans 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
1 Corinthians 1:26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
Ephesians 4:1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit–just as you were called to one hope when you were called–
Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
2 Thessalonians 1:11 With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith.
mac
just one question bible says that god of bible created confusion of languages among humans so that they fight with each other. do you accept that problem of non acceptance of hindi by south indians is due to bible.
First thing I will tell you is that the only Living God, the Self-existant One our Creator is a righteous God. Goodness is His character alone. We are just trying to practice His goodness, but we are not good, we still sin.
Well, all the descendents of Noah’s 3 sons lived together at Babylon (Ur, Najaf and Fallujah, sunni triangle) under one King Nimrod, who was building a tower to reach upto heavens. He said: Let us build a tower upto the heavens and go there and make war with those who brought flood on the earth and killed all flesh. Nimrod was a Sorcerer, a great one, who was able to talk to the Powers and Principalities (warring angels, rebellious angels) in heavens directly. Nimrod also had the clothing of Adam, stolen by his father Ham (Noah cursed Ham’s son Canaan) with him. When he wore that clothing and goes to hunt, he was a mighty one. As he was a mighty hunter in God’s eyes as the scriptures says. At that time there was one language of the people.
Genesis 11:7 Come, let’s go down and confuse their language, so that they won’t understand each other’s speech.
When it says “let’s go down”, it means there were two who came down, Father and Son, Elohim (plural of Eloah means God, a single plural). God divided the tongue of the people, so they cannot communicate. Their plan failed and they were divided and spread in different directions exactly as God had earlier planned the allotment of the earth for them as per the division of the earth by Noah for his three sons and their sons also divided their portions amongst their sons by lot as per the records of the Book of Jubilees.
Lately, thereafter as the demons had already appeared and misled them. Idolatry and violence erupted and they warred with each other. Demons are the left over spirits of dead giants who died in Noah’s flood. They were wise, bloodthirsty, violent and warring. Because they proceeded from fallen angels called Nephilims (half angels and half humans, who came directly in flesh leaving their spiritual bodies) and women; God so decreed that their place shall be on earth and not heavens until the great day of judgement.
God loves His creation and God loves His children. But, when His children goes to somebody else a stranger and calls them their fathers, God the Father Almighty gets angry. He has a right to get angry. God created all creation for His glory. We cant give anything to God as all creation belongs to Him and neither He is asking anything from us, He gives, He is the Provider.
Isaiah 42:8 “I am the LORD (YWHW); that is My Name! I will not give My glory to another or My praise to idols.”
Just to enlighten you further, the Christian countries especially England (and now America) have looted the nations of the world. India which was once known as the Golden Sparrow was left in tatters at the time of Independence. They left with ships full of gold. Read more about organized Christian banditry:
http://socyberty.com/history/the-stolen-wealth-of-india-during-british-rule/
You are a cry baby, SDC. Until Brits came, India was not even a country. It was made up of small kings and tribes, hundereds of them. They were fighting amongst themselves. Much of the life was nomadic and thats how Mughals succeded in taking over those small kings. Face the truth. Brits united all those small kings under their rule and so now we have a large country, we proudly call it India our motherland.
I am going to quote Winston Churchill and I am sure you would not like it what he said.
It is said that sixty four years ago, during the last days of the British rule, Indians hated British Prime Minister The Right Honorable Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill, KG, OM, CH, FRS, PC who steadfastly opposed the grant of freedom to India by his vituperative statements such as:
Power will go to the hands of rascals, rogues and freebooters. All Indian leaders will be of low calibre and men of straw. They will have sweet tongues and silly hearts. They will fight amongst themselves for power and India will be lost in political squabbles. A day would come when even air and water would be taxed.”
“India is merely a geographical expression. It is no more a single country than the equator.
Sir Winston Churchill was a visionary and was able to visualize what kind of political set-up, bureaucratic and Education system the Britishers were leaving behind them. After 65 years of Independence we now realize that Churchill was a true prophet and foretold of what was in store for the good people of India – a social welfare state.
Sir Winston Churchill was a visionary and was able to visualize what kind of political set-up, bureaucratic and Education system the Britishers were leaving behind them. After 65 years of Independence we now realize that Churchill was a true prophet and foretold of what was in store for the good people of India – a social welfare state.
We have to admit, barring a very few notable exceptions among our leaders, that all our present day Indian politicians are of ‘low caliber’ who make hay while sun shines by mortgaging our freedom for the welfare of their own families.
In the present political arena in India, the political parties keep aside all their moral principles just before the elections and ally with their political enemies.
While canvassing for votes, these ‘rascals, rogues and freebooters’ come to our doorsteps, and with ‘sweet tongues’ inviegle us by competing with each other by doling out instant cash as per the number of votes in each household and also promise to give non-existing freebies when their party wins.
After the elections, the winning parties part their ways and “will fight amongst themselves for power and India will be lost in political squabbles’.
Sir Winston Curchil’s prediction, ‘A day would come when even air and water would be taxed’ has come true. Even polluted and contaminated water is taxed by municipal corporations, townships, and village panchayats.
Selling water, once considered a sin, is now a booming business because the government is unable to supply clean, potable water to its citizens. Raw water is supplied by tankers and purified potable mineral water in canisters and bottles
Probably, the sting of the truth was too hot to handle for this Anglicized bluffmaster. So, you mean to say that there was an organized Judaeo-Christian state even before Aryavarta. The early Christians were themselves nomads, Jewish bootlicker. I am going to quote 2 crafty Christians to expose your nefarious agenda:
Lord Macaulay’s address to the British Parliament in 2 February, 1835:
“I have traveled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief. Such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such calibre, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage, and, therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self-esteem, their native self-culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation.”
Henry Kissinger,the time of the Turkish invasion in Cyprus, while addressing a group of Washington, D.C. businessmen in Sept.1974:
“The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame. For this reason we must strike deep into their cultural roots: Perhaps then we can force them to conform. I mean, of course, to strike at their language, their religion, their cultural and historical reserves, so that we can neutralize their ability to develop, to distinguish themselves, or to prevail. Thereby removing them as an obstacle to our strategically vital plans in the Balkans, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East, to all this neuralgic territory of great strategic importance for us, for
the politics of the USA.”
There were no christians until Jesus came over 2000 years ago. Romans, Greeks, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ethiopians, Chinese and Egyptians had their own idol gods and goddess. Early christians were executed by both the Jews, Greeks and Romans. They killed hundreds of thousands of them. But, it so happened that as the persecution increased, christianity spread in the world rapidly.
I will give you a lucid picture of the ancient world then. There were 70 nations born out of the 3 sons of Noah viz. Shem, Ham and Japheth. 26 nations were born out of Shem. 30 nations were born out of Ham and 14 nations were born out of Japheth. Out of the many great kings who ruled thereafter were Pharoah of Egypt, Sennacharib of Assyria, Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon and King David and King Solomon. Thereafter, a nation arose named Persia and its King were Cyrus the Great, Darius I, Ashuraures. They conqurered almost 80% of the world. After them came a conquerer from north named Alexander the Great, who conqured almost all of the world and defeated Darius II. They also had Changize Khan in far east.
India got urbanized from the time of Chandragupta Maurya I gradually. The land was full of small kings and tribal leaders, mostly nomadic tribes then. When Darius I started to conquer nations, he also conquered Indus valley and its sourrounding nations. He put up Satraps over nations kinda Governors.
Shem, who is called “the father of all the children of Eber,” was born when Noah had attained the age of 500 years (Genesis 5:32). Though married at the time of the Flood, Shem was then childless. Two years after the Flood, Shem being then 100 years old, his son Arpachshad was born (Genesis 11:10), and was followed by further sons and daughters during the remaining 500 years which preceded Shem’s death.
Noah’s prophetic blessing, on awakening from his wine, may be regarded as having been fulfilled in his descendants, who occupied Syria (Aramaic), Palestine (Canaan), Chaldea (Arpachshad), Assyria (Asshur), part of Persia (Elam/Indians/Persians), and Arabia (Joktan). In the first three of these, as well as in Elam, Canaanites had settled (if not in the other districts mentioned), but Shemites ruled, at some time or other, over the Canaanites, and Canaan thus became “his servant” (Genesis 9:25,26). The tablets found in Cappadocia seem to show that Shemites (Assyrians) had settled in that district also, but this was apparently an unimportant colony. Though designated sons of Shem, some of his descendants (e.g. the Elamites/Indians/Persians) did not speak a Semitic language, while other nationalities, not his descendants (e.g. the Canaanites), did.
The immediate descendants of Japheth were seven in number, and are represented by the nations designated Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Mesech, and Tiras; or, roughly, the Armenians, Lydians, Medes, Greeks, Tibarenians, and Moschians, the last, Tiras, remaining still obscure. The sons of Gomer (Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah) were all settled in the West Asian tract; while the sons of Javan (Elisah, Tarshish, Kittim and Dodanim or Rodanim) occupied the Mediterranean coast and the adjacent islands.
The nationalities described as Hamitic–a parallel to those of the Semitic section–were so called because they fell under Egyptian dominion. This would make the original Hamitic race to have been Egyptian and account for Ham as a (poetical) designation of that nationality. Professor F. L. Griffith has pointed out that the Egyptian Priapic god of Panopolis (Akhmim), sometimes called Menu, but also apparently known as Khem, may have been identified with the ancestor of the Hamitic race–he was worshipped from the coast of the Red Sea to Coptos, and must have been well known to Egypt’s eastern neighbors. He regards the characteristics of Menu as being in accord with the shamelessness of Ham as recorded in Genesis 9:20.
Four Sons of Ham were Mizraim (Egypt), Cush (Sudan, Ethiopia), Put (Lybia), Canaan (Hivites, Jebusites, Arvadites, Girgashites, Amorites, Arkites, Sinites (Chinese), Hittites, Sidonians, Perizzites, Zemarites)
I need to make a confession here. The source from where I copied Macaulay’s address to British Parliament does not seem to be authentic and hence is doubtful although some claim that the statement was made off the record. I erred on that count. I should have double-checked it. My bad. But this link will definitely give you an insight into the making of history:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=359456387468721&set=a.245163898897971.59595.244970388917322&type=1&theater
I hope Mr. Mac has answers to the questions that have been raised there.
In as far as Noah’s sons populating the world is concerned, I have already put forth my views against it. I am not going to do a rehash of the same. In as far India getting urbanized from the time of Chandragupta I is concerned, I believe I posted a link detailing the main features of the Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization that dates back to over 5000 years. Also, I would like you to search for Mehrgarh which is now seen as a precursor to the Indus Valley Civilization.
No, I have not misunderstood you. You are right on the track. You are doing good. I just added little more sense to your contention with verses. I thought the spiritual aspect you should not miss and the truth remains. You are doing good.
Watch your filthy mouth here. Name calling is a poor reflection on you. Don’t think by doing so you will come off well. You refer to yourself as “The Lordship” and we your slaves. That is so sick. You really think you come off as rational. You come off as disgusting. Who do you think you are to think it is ok to call others slaves or any other filthy name, and arrogantly refer to yourself as “The Lordship.” No one here is your slave, you sick man. Your posts are filled with such haughtiness and arrogance and foul language.
-You came here saying Agniveer should not have said this or that about Christian theology. So far you have not in any of your posts addressed what Agniveer has actually written on Christianity, but have gone off accusing him of criticizing Christian theology which is false. So if you have a rebuttal or argument to what Agniveer actually did write in this article on Christianity regarding history which I quoted above then do it. Don’t falsely accuse Agniveer of something and go argue against it, and demand an apology for something he did not write. So yes your rebuttal on Christianity made by must be on what Agniveer actually wrote about Christianity.
-If you have doubts on NON-Christian points of history that Agniveer has made which is the most of the article, that is a completely different topic and has nothing to do with Christianity. If that is what you want to debate with someone else commenting on this site, go for it. But that is completely different from your accusations towards Agniveer and your basis for demands for Agniveer to apologize or put disclaimers for Christians. Since it is you who have accused Agniveer of saying false things about Christianity In your rebuttal to Agniveer it must be to what Agniveer said on Christian which is a statement on Christian destruction of libraries.
-Premise: All Christians are evil people.
Conclusions: Therefore Christianity should be false.
That is your premise. Not mine. Agniveer also in this article did not say that either. Agniveer pointed out that Christians have historically destroyed ancient libraries. Does that mean all Christians are evil, no. And he wrote nothing on Christian theology. So you are arguing against a premise no one made. The rest of your post talking about that premise (that is yours and not ours) go is irrelevant as no one but you made it.
-And also irrelevant is the random miscellaneous issue you bring up Aryan and Dravidian debate out of the blue. Again you are bringing up a topic not addressed in this article and not relevant to your demands that Agniveer apologize for what he wrote regarding Christianity. My point by referring to the site that shows historical destruction by Christians against non-Christian sites was to support Agniveers statement he wrote in the article that Christians have destroyed libraries, and had nothing to do with the Aryan/Dravidian debate you now brought up out of nowhere. It is you and you alone who out of the blue now wants to go into Aryan/Dravidian debate. A completely irrelevant topic unrelated to this article and your false accusations against Agniveer about statement he made regarding Christian theology and to your demands that Agniveer apologize to Christians.
-Regarding Christian historical destruction of nonChristian sites such as libraries, you said in your above comment “I WILL SIMPLY ACCEPT IT when it says Christians cruelly destroyed non christian sites” The one thing that Agniveer wrote in the article about Christians is that Christians destroyed ancient non-Christian libraries, and you said you accept that Christians destroyed non-Christian sties. There is nothing then to Christians that Agniveer needs to apologize for or put a disclaimer on. He did not write anything about Christian theology, so nothing to apologize regarding that, and he wrote Christians destroyed non-Christian sites such as libraries and you accept that Christians destroyed non-Christian site and so nothing to apologize regarding history either. So what are your going to post about rebutting what Agniveer wrote regarding Christianity here on this article to support your demands that Agniveer apologize to Christians?
– As for your abusive foul language reply to the issue of what you tell the Government, it is such a good display of your base character and arrogance. I think worse of you not better. And don’t think others reading it are going to think better of your vile language. Your premises are false. My point was not that Government has made it mandatory that you officially convert. My point is about YOU telling the truth about your real faith to the government census. I get that you are still on record officially Hindu, that you don’t have to officially change it, and that is what you report to the government census. But it is still false information. The truth is you are a practicing Christian as you stated. When you choose not to update your official record on what your faith is, you are allowing false information to remain. Again the point is YOU telling the truth, not what the government makes mandatory or not. The official record is false and so what the government gets on its census is also in reality false.
-As for what I asked Agniveer, I asked them to moderate these posts better since too many are way too long and this is not a place to cut and past half of a book, and also to moderate it to keep it better on topic of the article above, and not let it be hijacked by proselytizers for conversion purposes. Frankly your rambling posts are mostly not logical. You often are off topic and bring up completely irrelevant things, and go off on long ad hominem attacks and disgusting foul language. And you think your impress people.
Christianity is an idol worshiping religion that is history centric. It was made up by Constantine during the council of nicea. Simple fact that Christians do not want to face. The bible is made up by Constantine and now the whole Christian world has been duped by one powerful Romain Emperor with his own ambitions to become the most powerful ruler in the world. Christians like mr. spanky has major problems because he does not want to face the truth. He does not want to face the fact that Christianity is a fake religion and more christians everyday are leaving that crazy faith.
The retention rate in Christianity is the worst in the world. I live in the U.S. and every day more people are leaving Christianity here. As well as Europe. I know so many Americans that are getting into Hinduism, Sikhi, Buddhism, and Jainism. The fastest growing religion the U.S. is between two major religions. They are Buddhism and Mormonism, and as we know most mainstream christians find mormonism to be a corruption of christianity. I personally know many ex-christians that are sick of christianity. Why do you think Obama is such a hit. The republican side in the U.S. has usually been siding with Christian extremists and missionaries. People are sick of them. That is why Democrats are winning. And when I say people leaving Christianity, I mean people from all races. I have met black people, white people, Hispanics, and even arabs who come from christian back grounds. It is a very common thing. And they all tell me that the axioms that make up christianity make no sense. the Christian trinity is totally bogus. Vast majority only follow it culturally and more and more are even willing to change that once they become more knowledgeable about Vedic Hinduism, Sikhi, or Buddhism. I have met so many black, white, and Hispanic and even arab buddhists in the U.S. Seriously, Christianity is dieing, and in one last desperate effort, churches are trying to redirect their money to Asia to try and save themselves, but Asia’s fighting back as well. They know christianity is a total bogus religion. Everyone I ask say the christian trinity makes no sense. It is total bullshit.
You are a total fool Mr. Spanky. I lived in the us for the last 30+ years. I have seen how things changed. If anyone, its you who looks like total retard and moron.
“Buddhism is being recognized as the fastest growing religion in Western societies both in terms of new converts and more so in terms of friends of Buddhism, who seek to study and practice various aspects of Buddhism.[3][4] As in the United States, Buddhism is ranked among the fastest growing religions in many Western European countries.[5]
The Australian Bureau of Statistics through statistical analysis held Buddhism to be the fastest growing spiritual tradition/religion in Australia in terms of percentage gain with a growth of 79.1% for the period 1996 to 2001 (200,000→358,000).[6] However, because Australia is statistically small, no inferences can be drawn from that for the whole world.
Buddhism is the fastest-growing religion in England’s jails, with the number of followers rising eightfold over the past decade”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion#cite_note-4
I don’t think you have ever stepped into a Buddhist temple before. Unlike you I have, and they are the most multi-ethinic religion in the US. I have seen people from all races. Just because you live inside a box and never want to get your tiny little brain hurt doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. Go to buddhist temple, google and research for yourself you stupid retard.
And yet you still have not provided any solid claims about the comments you made about Vedic people. I am still waiting for quotes from the Vedas translated by an accepted and recognized Vedic group. If you are the expert you claim you are, provide the Vedic translator, Vedic group that supports the translation of the Vedas, and Publisher. Since you are the big fat expert, I want proof, so I can go research it for myself. And don’t give me translations give to you by some christian. Seriously you are going to stoop that low. I can just make up translations about your bible as well and make shit up. BE A MAN YOU FOOL. Stop being such a spanked retard. And provide real proof for once. Stop hiding and running away from the proof question I keep asking you. You are really a wimpy fool.
I love cartoons. I love to watch Tom and Jerry. I just love cartoons like U. U bring joy to my heart, when I read U. Thank U.
You said: I have been living here since 30 years and still you are eating vedic fill in the blanks. LOL! I told you I love cartoons like U.
Now, Islam says our relgion is the religion of Adam and Eve. Thinking as if Adam and Eve ever practiced a religion. It is thru Adam and Eve that the sin entered the world. And they are the children of God, made by God’s hands. They only broke one command of God. They are the sons and daughters of God as per geneology.
Then, you come here my wise pandit krishnarao, and you say: Our religion is trillions of year old. Just because it is written in vedas, the truth of our beliefs.
I am not even a religious person like U. I am a spiritual person and I have already seen thru U. Vedas birth, I have already exposed in my earlier posts. Then, why I am wasting my time here. Because, I in the first place came here to discuss not debate, the truth, the wisdom and the knowledge, I thought I want to share it with my people. I thought may be something I may not know, I can learn it from you and may be we both together can find some truth and share it. But U R hell bound in condemning and cursing.
God bless.
Mr. Spanky, a.k.a. Mac, You really are a total retard. Again you made a bunch of claims about the Vedas. You haven’t given me one verse translated by a Vedic scholar on here. Give me the name of the Vedic Scholar. The Verse, the publisher, and the Vedic group that supports that translation. I am waiting you BIG FAT CHEAT.
Unlike you I have given proof that Buddhism is the fastest growing religion in the West. Incase you have forgotten I will repost.
“Buddhism is being recognized as the fastest growing religion in Western societies both in terms of new converts and more so in terms of friends of Buddhism, who seek to study and practice various aspects of Buddhism.[3][4] As in the United States, Buddhism is ranked among the fastest growing religions in many Western European countries.[5]
The Australian Bureau of Statistics through statistical analysis held Buddhism to be the fastest growing spiritual tradition/religion in Australia in terms of percentage gain with a growth of 79.1% for the period 1996 to 2001 (200,000→358,000).[6] However, because Australia is statistically small, no inferences can be drawn from that for the whole world.
Buddhism is the fastest-growing religion in England’s jails, with the number of followers rising eightfold over the past decade”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion#cite_note-4
I’m sure you are burning inside because you see your white brother who you wish to be exactly like leaving the very thing you wanted to be like. Because they even know that christianity is total bullshit. LOL. And every day that goes by more people will and are leaving Christianity. I personally met many Westerns that left Christianity. They know what non-sense it is. Get over yourself, they want to live a life that leads to truth and they know for a fact Christianity doesn’t. And they are also sick of the lies that the church puts out about Dharmic religions. Like you the Church also does not quote from Vedas, they make stuff up. They do not give translations by Vedic scholars, nor do they give name of a translator, or the verse, or the Vedic group that supports a translations, or the publisher. They have ZERO proof. And in the West when you are given ZERO proof people stop believing the shit you say. And that is what you have done. Given ZERO proof.
krishnarao, You write garbage. You think bad mouthing would win you an arguement. The meanness that you show on this blog is self-explanatory of your being. It shows how you were raised.
Buddha was born in 563 BC before Christ. Then, why there are no majority of buddhists in the world population as you say that it is the fastest growing religion in the world today? Why the majority of the world population today follows Abrahamic religions?
Mr. Spanky, a.k.a. Mac,
The only person on here who pushed their filth is you. You popped on this site and started spewing your disgusting sewer shit on this website. By you calling anyone a demon worshiper makes you a screwed up person. That is the worst from of hate to call someone that. Clearly you follow a religion of pure hate to make such comments about people.
Quote me the line where I made this comment, “buddhists in the world population as you say that it is the fastest growing religion in the world today?”
– Where did I say the “world.” You are making up stuff again. I said it was the fastest growing religion in the West. not the world.
So now you have two thing you need to give me proof on. You made all these claims about Vedic people. Give me the proof of the claims you made about Vedic people:
1. Quote from the Vedas
2. The name of the Vedic practicing person who translated the Verse and copy of the Vedas.
3. The publisher of the Vedas.
4. The name of the Vedic group that supports that translation of the Vedas.
Give me the proof you little wimp. Stop running away from this question. I will not stop posting this until you respond. You came on here like you were an expert on Hindus. Now put your money where you mouth is and give people proof big boy. Don’t try and hide behind your insults mr. spanky. Be a man for once and give proof.
The next thing you need to give proof to is where I said, as you claim, “buddhists in the world population as you say that it is the fastest growing religion in the world today?” Go through my comments and show me where I made this statement. Give me the quote and date when I posted it. Because I never made this claim. GIVE ME PROOF BIG BOY.
If you can’t prove the claims you made, just state you made a mistake and you were wrong. Don’t be a pussy, be a man and admit it when you are wrong.
@ MAC abrahamic religion are fastest growing bcoz they use bombs and guns to spread it
And stop acting like vicjags and you are two different people Mr. Spanky. Comments from both are filled with total nonsense just slightly different personas, Mr. Spanky.
“icjags has explained to you christianity in layman’s terms very nicely. ”
– LMAF…….. You have to be joking. Seriously, Christianity is an utter joke. It is filled with hate and filth and as I said before, the trinity of christianity makes zero sense. Infact it is harmful to society. It is causing the retardation of society by believing in that nonsense.
“but preach it with blurting venom without any base.”
– Can someone say hypocrite. If anything you are the retard that came on this page and started preaching hate with pure venom. Your the dumbshit that called others on here demon worshipers. Seriously you need to take a note from you own page you dipshit. I’m not the one who runs around telling them they will go to hell. You are a sick human being. And most important, your dumbass comes on a Vedic site and tells people they worship this god or that god which are demons. As I said before, this is a Vedic site, we DO NOT BELIEVE in idol worship. We, only, believe in praying to the One God, Omkar. But as I said before, your dumbass didn’t do proper research of us. If you wanted to talk about idol worship, you should have gone to a mainstream Hindu site, or even to your own church and tell them jesus worship is idol worship. But the fact that you were soooooo stupid and tell people here they worship many gods is a mute point. Because Vedic people consider idol worship against the path to GOd. And that include, praying to idols, belief in son of god or praying to him, or even belief in prophets. We are against all of that nonsense. We believe anyone can connect with God. The importance is the techniques. We don’t believe in or support mongoloid power hunger people like your jesus or Constantine the creator of your bible and religion Christianity. So seriously, go check yourself fool.
LOL!
Bro., Cursing me makes you feel happy? Let it be so, be happy. And God bless.
Cursing christianity makes you feel happy? Let it be so, be happy. I say: God bless you again.
John 15:18 Jesus said: If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.
Matthew 10:22 Jesus said: All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:9 Jesus said: Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
John 7:7 Jesus said: The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil.
Anyway, your hatred is not your fault, you are born into it.
God bless.
Calling people demons worshipers will get you no where. Only your religion of hate, a.k.a christainity, which was made up by the romains, makes such statements about people you hate monger.
@Vicjags : Very Well lets start it slow now that you have agreed to a sane and logical debate.
my First query : What is the rationale and logic behind the claim that Jesus is the ONLY way to Salvation and what is Salvation. so here i have posed two questions.
@mac,jejus teaching same vedanta and buddhism,his teachings available in old hindu and buddhist philosophy.jejus thought is not a new thought,it is a borrowed on hinduism and buddhism.
Buddha’s concept of spiritual wisdom is that all evil emanates from the human desires. Buddha DO NOT identify himself as a god. Buddha’s teachings are of defying desires. He do not explore the realms of spirituality. In fact, he dont even know what spirituality is.
On the other hand, Jesus identifies himself as Son of God. The Yah or I AM of OT and claims His godship again and again. Under jewish law, it is a blasphemy to call yourself God. They even dont utter the name of God, which is very holy instead they use the titles Adonai or Elohim. The reason they crucified Jesus is that He claimed that He is God of hebrews.
So when the High Priest asked Jesus in the Sanhedrine (jewish court of law) hearing. “ARE you the Messiach, the Son of the Most High?”
Jesus said: “That is what you are saying, I AM (Yah, the hebrew God),”
And the High Priest had enough reason to tear his garment saying: “Do we need any more proof? It is a blasphemy”. The punishment for blasphemy is death under the law.
If Jesus is a liar. I tell you even a fool would not tell lies knowing that its punishment is death. Jesus had no political or profiteering agenda. He said: “The Son of man has no place to lay his head”.
Even the ruling Roman Governor Pontius Pilate after questioning Jesus said: “I do not find any fault in this man”. And he washed his hands in front of the public saying:”I am innocent of this man’s blood”.
When one compares Jesus with the other great religious leaders, a remarkable distinction emerges. Ravi Zacharias, who grew up in a Hindu culture, in fact, he was born in a brahmin family, has studied world religions and observed a fundamental distinction between Jesus Christ and the founders of other major religions.
“In all of these, there emerges an instruction, a way of living. It is not Zoroaster to whom you turn; it is Zoroaster to whom you listen. It is not Buddha who delivers you; it is his Noble Truths that instruct you. It is not Mohammad who transforms you; it is the beauty of the Koran that woos you. By contrast, Jesus did not only teach or expound His message. He was identical with His message.”
The truth of Zacharias’ point is underscored by the number of times in the Gospels that Jesus’ teaching message was simply “Come to me” or “Follow me” or “Obey me.” Also, Jesus made it clear that his primary mission was to forgive sins, something only God could do.
In The World’s Great Religions, Huston Smith observed, “Only two people ever astounded their contemporaries so much that the question they evoked was not ‘Who is he?’ but ‘What is he?’ They were Jesus and Buddha. The answers these two gave were exactly the opposite. Buddha said unequivocally that he was a mere man, not a god—almost as if he foresaw later attempts to worship him. Jesus, on the other hand, claimed … to be divine.
@Vicjags
Talking of a logically incoherent entity, how does a virgin mother exist? Is not the concept of a virgin mother a logically contradictory term which cannot exist in reality. Forget about Spanish Inquisition, could you shed some light on Goa Inquisition? And going by your definition of who is a Christian, there will be very less christians in the world today. How can God die for my sins when I have committed them more than 2000 years after his death? I did not have time to go through the entire post. Will raise some more questions other time?
I am sure “virgin” Mary did not adopt Jesus or did she? In any case, let me enlighten about the process of human reproduction, the knowledge of which you sorely lack. Humans reproduce through sexual intercourse between a man and a woman. During intercourse, the interaction between the male and female reproductive systems results in fertilization of the woman’s ovum by the man’s sperm, which after a gestation period is followed by childbirth. The fertilization of the ovum may nowadays be achieved by artificial insemination methods, which do not involve sexual intercourse. Trying to hide behind technical jargon. Then, I must say it is a lame attempt to get out of the shithole that you have got into, moron. Are you then trying to imply that Jesus was born out of artificial insemination methods. Does the Bible help in providing any clues in this regard? Your belief that Mary was a Virgin at the time of conception through the help of Holy Ghost is not a rational argument and not supported by facts. And it is incumbent on you to explain the possibility of a supposed Holy Ghost impregnating a “virgin” woman since you are representing Christianity in this forum.
If the Christians can launch a “harvesting of souls” program, the Hindus are well within their rights to fight for a Hindu Rashtra. As for the Kandhamal riots and the “peaceful” temperament of the Christians, please refer to link given below and know more about your peaceful brethren:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism
Bro.,
You must have missed my yesterday’s posts. Human logic, rationality and science do not apply to miracles. Miracles are against all odds, thats why we call it a miracle. When God speaks things into existence, it defies all science, all rationality and all human logic. I already mentioned twice thrice in yesterday’s post that
IS THERE ANYTHING IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD.
Mary was over shadowed with the Holy Spirit means the Holy Seed was planted in her womb without sex. Does God need sex? Is He made up of flesh (dust)?
I gave two historical examples from the scriptures also. You are arguing from a scientific point of view and human logic. I am giving you historical evidence from spiritual point of view. Until you mix up science with spirituality, you will never understand the truth.
I am going to ask you a question. We know Jesus walked on the water. But there is a type of lizard which also runs on the water defying all science. Tell me, how is that lizard running on the water surface? Now, this is a science question.
Forget it. I have already answered almost all of their questions and SDC’s as well. I think he has missed some of my answers/posts, so he is re-arguing. Its Ok, SDC is a nice guy. He is just curious about “eating the spiritual food at one time” and he dont know that he can digest it even. His stomach is upset and it is all that is. And all our socalled hindu brothers on this blog act the same way. They are craving like babies for “spiritual food”, so give them little by little. Milk first.
The reason I butted in is because in your reply to Mac you made vituperative remarks about my views. Obviously, I could not have just ignored them. And it was you who tried to act smart by introducing the term “Virgin Bachelor.”
Miracles have reportedly been performed by saints of other religious denominations as well. Also, What were miracles in the past are now fast becoming commonplace events. As regards the lizard’s ability to walk on water is concerned, this link might be helpful:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/11/1116_041116_jesus_lizard.html
I am not talking about black magic here. What other religions’ swamys or prophets have performed a miracle? Tell me one on historical record. Biblical prophets performed miracles which are on historical records. In your mythology, Ram has to ask for the help of hanuman to build a bridge and then go on the other side to bring Sita back. Whereas God parted the Red Sea by the breath of His mouth and let all Israel pass on the other side of the sea, on feet. He destroyed the whole army of Pharoh when they entered the Red Sea by bringing back the waters.
The lizard runs on still waters, it is not walking on water. Whereas Jesus was walking on the waves of the sea. Jesus calmed down the storm with a command “calm down” and the wind died down.
Typo. My bad. You used the term “Married Bachelor.”
How do you differentiate between a miracle and an act of black magic? Miracles have been performed by a lot of babas. Even Sai baba of Shirdi has been reported to have performed miracles during his lifetime.
O’yeah Shirdi Sai Baba and the rest of the babbas amassing the wealth and doing rice magic, hand trick. Is’nt Sachin Tendulkar his son? Its a miracle!
If you want to see real life magic, check on youtube “Chris Angel”. He can make all your babas run as far as real life magic is concerned.
Well, you are confusing Shirdi Sai Baba with Sathya Sai Baba. In any case, Criss Angel can perform better miracles than Benny Hinn or Paul Dinakaran for that matter. And, he also walks on water and flies in the air.
Criss Angel is a master illusionist and a magician. Whereas Dhinakaran and Benny Hinn performs miracles in the Name of Yeshua Ha Mashiach. Criss Angel does hand tricks, where as these preachers only do it in the Name of Yeshua.
I am sure with preachers like Benny Hinn and Paul Dinakaran, there should no longer be any place for pestilences in this world. They could go on performing miracles in the Name of Yeshua Ha Mashiach, what say you? The next time you see someone suffering from cancer or a serious illness, you know who to get in touch with, isn’t it?
Miracles can happen, if the person who wants to get healed has himself have faith in the Name of Jesus Christ.
Jesus said: If you have faith as small as this mustard seed and if you tell the mountain to be uprooted and thrown in to the ocean, it will be done.
You do not know about the Goa Inquisition or you do not want to know about it? Because it a relatively recent event that clearly points to the barbaric methods employed by the Christians to spread their faith and thus your premise that Christianity did not spread through violence also stands nullified. Also, let me produce a famous quote by Bishop Desmond Tutu to unearth the nefarious intentions of the missionaries: “When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said, ‘Let us pray.’ We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land.” Go through this link and find out more about Goa Inquisition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition
I will leave out the True versus false Christian topic for now.
I actually was questioning the Christian belief that Jesus died on the cross for their sins. How can one suffer for someone elses’ sins 2000 years before they were even committed? Do you get my point, now?
You are right about Desmond Tutu. He did said that. Let me tell you who Desmond Tutu is. He is a descendent of Cannan, the cursed grandson of Noah. The Cannanites spread all over the world taking away the lands of other descendents of Noah. They spread, but they didnt developed or progressed. They lived a nomadic life because of the curse of Noah.
Genesis 9:25 And he (Noah) said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. He also said, “Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem (Semites/Elamites)! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth (Europeans/all white skin); may Japheth live in the tents of Shem, and may Canaan be his slave.” [Here Europeans are allowed to visit and live in the tents of Shem means semites and elamites (Indians)].
Portugese were in Goa. I dont give a darn about Portugese because to me my people first, they did occupied our land. Mahatma Gandhi and Nehru fought with Brits with the weapon of non-violence and won. They why did Nehru send an army to fight with Portugese down there.
Your another question of 2000 years and how can our sins be forgiven by Jesus who died 2000 years ago. That is the easiest one.
Sin entered the world thru one man Adam who was made from the dust of the earth. So also the payment of the sin was made in flesh by the second Adam (Jesus) who came from heavens and who resurrected and ascended to heavens and now sits on the right hand of God Almighty, the Father (Abba) of all creation. Both of the Adams are called sons of God in the geneology of mankind as it is written.
Sin brought death into this world because God said: The day thou shalt eat of this tree, thou shalt surely die. That was just one command God gave to Adam and Eve. They broke it and sin entered the flesh (world) along with came God’s judgment —death.
Sin gets its power from the law (God’s command) and its punishment is death. It is written: The wages of sin is death. And there is no redemption of sin in God’s eyes unless there is pouring of blood of the first born and unblemished. Again;
Numbers: God is not a man that He should lie.
Now, on the cross Yeshua said: IT IS FINISHED.
The law is fulfilled and put aside. There was a great earthquake and sun disappeared and darkness covered the world and the curtain of the temple of Jerusalem was torn into two from top to bottom and the Glory of God which was sitted in the temple in the holiest of the holy place left the temple. Now if you want to come to God, Yeshua Ha Mashaich is the ONLY WAY and there is no other way.
God made Yeshua a sin offering, who knew no sin and then nailed the sin on the tree making a mockery of those Powers and Principalites (rebellious angels) and defeated Satan. THE LAW IS FULFILLED AND PUT ASIDE.
It says in NT: While we were still sinners, Yeshua died for us.
I killed him because of my sins.
This would be a very heavy spiritual food for you to digest. Eat little by little as much as you can digest. It takes time to grow in spirituality.
God bless.
Regarding the validity of the concept of Original Sin and also of humankind descending from Adam and Eve is concerned, this link provides some serious food for thought:
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.in/2009/12/dispelling-original-sin-in-eden.html
You are using the arguments of atheists and evolutionists. Their mission is to try to defy God concept thru bad science and hypothesis. The guy who was in charge of human genom project is a practicing christian. The 6th type of evolution, the division among each KIND of speices is already proved twice.
In 2000, researchers led by Human Genome Project Director Francis Collins completed the first full “sequence” of human genetic material, prompting much debate over what such material might be used for. The issue of bioethics remains as potent today as it was then, most visibly with the controversial issue of stem cell research. The following piece was originally published in 2000.
There are sure to be many who read with trepidation this morning’s news that researchers have completed the first “sequence” of human genetic material. Some will ask, isn’t this playing God? Some will fear that the work is the effort of scientists determined to disprove the existence of a higher power. Interesting, then, that Francis Collins, a molecular biologist who is head of the National Human Genome Research Institute, the federal government part of the sequencing project, is a devout Christian and a leading member of the
American Scientific Affiliation, the 3,000-member organization for scientists who are actively religious.
Collins once told me, “I find my appreciation of science is greatly enriched by religion. When I discover something about the human genome, I experience a sense of awe at the mystery of life, and say to myself, ‘Wow, only God knew before.’ It is a profoundly beautiful and moving sensation, which helps me appreciate God and makes science even more rewarding for me.” Collins first became prominent when he led the team that discovered the gene for cystic fibrosis. As both an active Christian and a prominent biologist, he is perhaps today’s leading exponent for the view that there is no conflict between evolutionary biology and the Bible. Collins winces on the word creationism, asserting that “Creationism has done more harm to serious notions of belief than anything in modern history.” He maintains that the evidence for natural selection is overwhelming, but that this need not stop anyone from believing that a creator God set the process in motion.
Collins, who prays and attends church regularly, says that “In my field, biology, the standard assumption is that anyone with faith has gone soft in the head. But I don’t check my brains at the door when I go to church.” He finds that many scientists are biased against faith–“When a scientist describes himself as a believer, the first reaction among colleagues may be, ‘How did this guy get tenure?'”–essentially for turf reasons. “Scientists are taught to believe that the data will eventually yield all answers,” Collins says. “So if you tell them there are important aspects of life that cannot be understood through lab tests or data, that means their form of knowledge will always be limited, and some find that threatening.”
Collins believes that the human genome sequence will add greatly to medical progress but cautions against reading too much into it. He says, “I especially worry about this galloping stampede to reductionism in my field, where the rush is on to attribute everything, even personality traits, to DNA. This is patently ridiculous. Reductionist explanations of human consciousness fly in the face of everything else we know about the subject.” (“Reductionism” means attributing complex results, such as human self-awareness, exclusively to simple causes, such as DNA chemicals.)
Summing up his views of the boundary between science and faith, Collins says, “I would not expect religion to be the right tool for sequencing the human genome and by the same token would not expect science to be the means to approaching the supernatural. But on the really interesting larger questions, such as ‘Why are we here?’ or ‘Why do human beings long for spirituality?,’ I find science unsatisfactory. Many superstitions have come into existence and then faded away. Faith has not, which suggests it has reality.”
The nature of the source is irrelevant but the arguments are not. It does not really matter as to what director Francis Collins believes in. But at least, he does not endorse the bogus theory of creationism which is at the base of Abrahamic faiths. At least, the Genographic Project has been able to establish that we are not all descendants of Adam and Eve. The following link also raises pertinent questions on the idea of Original Sin:
Bible is the Word of God. Not just Francis Collins, but if you ask any christian, he will say that he believes in the Word of God whole not a part of it, the Whole Word of God. Francis Collins believes in creationism as it is written in the bible. His project arrives at the conclusion that they all are related to one man and one woman, Adam and Eve.
I only producing excerpts from your comment:
Collins winces on the word creationism, asserting that “Creationism has done more harm to serious notions of belief than anything in modern history.” Collins says, “I would not expect religion to be the right tool for sequencing the human genome and by the same token would not expect science to be the means to approaching the supernatural.”
The Christians believe that the Bible is the word of God. Others do not toe this line of thinking. I have already referred to some findings from the Genographic Project having arrived at a different conclusion. The last word is yet to be said. BTW, this link makes an interesting reading:
http://ancientindians.wordpress.com/tag/national-geographic-genographic-project/
Creationism is a subject of spirituality. Without faith you cannot understand the Word of God neither believe it. What Collins says is true “Creationism has done more harm to serious notions of belief than anything in modern history.” I had already told you in the beginning that Bible is not scientific, it is spiritual, it is the Word of God. You cannot reach God thru science.
If at all creationism is a subject of spirituality, then at least do not try to pass it of as science. I think I have also told you that Bible is the word of God only for the Christians and not for the non-Christians. As I am still to reach God, I would not know more about it. Different people have different notions about how to reach God.
The prospect of doing a retreat or asking for apology does not even arise. You were of the opinion that true Christianity cannot be spread through “converting” anyone by luring them or forcing them under sword. But I already pointed out to the fact that force was indeed used to convert people. And I also brought to your
notice what some prominent Africans feel about the spread of Christianity. The life stories of Malcolm X, Muhammad Ali, et al will be a good case in point. The very fact that missionaries are pumping in billions of dollars in Asian countries do not rule out the case of enticing and alluring poor people into the faith.
I am sure you are aware of the terms Anno Domini (AD or A.D.) and Before Christ (BC or B.C.). Now that it is over 2000 years of Christ’s crucifixion, my question was how could he die for the sins that I commit here and now.
In the beginning, God only gave one command to Adam and Eve. “You shalt not eat of this tree. The day you shalt eat of this tree, you shall surely die.” Because of this command death was about to enter the world as Adam and Eve disobeyed that one command. Sin is disobedience to God. Sin gets its power from the law. When Cain the first son of Adam got angry. God said to him “If you desire good, good is going to come to you. If you desire bad sin is crouching right at your door”. So sin was already there in the world. Thereafter, Cain killed his brother Abel. Genesis 4:11-16, the curse was as a result of Cain treacherously murdering his brother Abel, then lying about the murder to God. When Cain spilled his brother’s blood, the earth became cursed as soon as the blood hit the ground. In a sense, the earth was left “drinking Abel’s blood”. Genesis 4:12 gives a two part sentencing for Cain’s curse. The first concerns the earth that was cursed by Abel’s blood. Should Cain attempt to farm the land, the earth would not yield produce for him. This may imply why he went on to build cities, namely the City of Enoch. The second part of the curse marks Cain as a fugitive and wanderer.
After this lawlessness, violence and wars spread amongst the descendents of Noah because of the “fallen angels” (nephilims) who came down in flesh directly during Jared’s time. Jared is father of Enoch. God destroyed all flesh on earth because of the wickedness during the time of Noah. God did not allowed the spirits of the dead giants in hades where the dead go. They are left out on the earth until the judgement day and they are demon spirits who mislead people.
According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal (This means not to practice Jhatka method. You dont kill by cutting the living animal in two pieces. You have to kill it with one single slit to the throat first before you cut it into pieces). These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come.
The Noahic commandments are binding on all people, because all people are descended from Noah and his family. The 613 mitzvot of the Torah, on the other hand, are only binding on the descendants of those who accepted the commandments at Sinai and upon those who take on the yoke of the commandments voluntarily. In addition, the Noahic commandments are applied more leniently to non-Jews than the corresponding commandments are to Jews, because non-Jews do not have the benefit of Oral Torah to guide them in interpreting the laws.
Later on, God gave the Torah, the law to Israel at Mt.Sinai thru Moses. The law states that the wages of sin is death. Under the law everyone will die for no one is sinless. Law requires various animal and bird sacrifices for various sins. Jews observed the law as a matter of deeds. Everybody has sinned and have fallen short of God’s glory, which was taken away from Adam and Eve at the fall of mankind. Jesus said: The one who has not sinned will cast the first stone at the prostitute.
Jesus Christ is the ultimate and perfect sacrificial Lamb of God, born thru virgin, holy and unblemished. Sin entered the world thru one man Adam, so also it was repaid in full by the second Adam who came from heaven. Sin was committed in flesh, so also it was repaid in flesh. Jesus said on the cross: IT IS FINISHED. The law is fulfilled and put aside. Now no more sacrifices. The Shekinah (Glory) of God tored the curtain of the temple of Jerusalem and left.
God opened the door out of His love for all mankind by sending His only begotten Son as a sin offering for all generations of mankind. Now if you want to come to God, Jesus is the only Way. Jesus entered the Court of God in heavens with His own blood and offered it to God. Then didnt came back, but He sat on the right hand of God. If you believe that Jesus died for your sins, repent and confess, you will be saved. The door which God opened is thru Faith (Yeshua Ha Mashiach), God’s grace will be given to you free. It is a gift God gave to mankind. Jesus stayed in hades (where dead rest) for 3 days and gave them the good news of His sacrifice and they accepted Him as their personal Saviour.
2 Corinthians 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 4:25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Romans 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 2:12-16 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Search for “WHY IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO FORCEFULLY CONVERT ?”
You argued that it is impossible to convert forcefully but I have already pointed out to you the concept of Inquisition.
Neither Agniveer or Swami Dayanand Saraswati were experts in world religions. They have studied their own vedic religion. If you see in this world today, there are a bunch of “world religions experts” and they are great christian apologetics like Dr.Ravi Zacharias, who is from a brahmin family. He speaks amongst academics and debates with scientiests and top notch religious leaders like top muslim leader of Mecca, Saudi Arabia and Jerusalem mosque ; and sometimes addresses the Senate meetings here.
Ram has been a common name in old classical languages. We know that Agniveer has misused it without any linguistic reasoning. Neither is he a linguist.
@ MAC i can prove there are no miracles,
can you prove, just send a video of yourself performing a miracle. if you show me i will be christian next minute.
@VicJags : I missed your this response you Original sin, i think you have not very well understood the christain Doctrine, as per it “Every Human is BORN IN SIN/BORN SINNER” and what you say “has sin Nature in him” are totally not reconcialiable,so i would suggest you go back to the basics of your dogma.
@Vicjags
Any credible source or proof from where we can verify your rhetoric regarding christianity? Care to provide us.
Take it easy! There questions are not so difficult to answer. They are curious to debate, but they lack proper evidence of well researched, proved and authenticated stuff in their scriptures. Even the writers of their scriptures were ill-informed, so they wrote poetries of folklores and legends of folklores.
It is like if a blind person leads another blind person, both of them will fall in the pit.
@SDC should know that as of today, there would be many pregnent virgins in India. Europeans and American couples prefer young surrogate virgin girls and they pay good money to them. India has a lot of surrogate virgin mothers as of today.
God planted the Holy Seed in the womb of Mary.
Luke 1: 28-29 The angel (Gabriel) went to her (Mary) and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.” Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be.
Luke 1:34-37 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. For nothing is impossible with God.”
Probably, the “intellectually superior” Christians do not know of IVF techniques that have been developed by scientists or were they? It could be very well possible that the Bible has reference to artificial insemination methods and the scientists simply stole them.
Guys/Oldtimers of this website,
check out this stupid reasoning of VicJacks “teaching school children that Earth is flat” & Zakir Naik’s 2+2 = 4 logic.
😀 Have fun
And perhaps someone need to introduce to them the Great Voltaire(assuming they might not be interested in vedic school of thoughts which has influenced him) so that they can come out of their ‘slave of god’ mentality.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
@VicJags : I seriouly hoped that i would not have to dive into English Semantics.
In fact, even I was saying the same thing here
“Sin Nature ” is a illogical construct ,even then
“Sin Nature ” (if for arguement sake accepted) does not Equate to “Sinner” as the former mean that the sin is yet to Happen but the actual definition of Original sin is that every One born is a sinner i.e. sin has already happened.
Now with this understading do you agree?
How very very convenient of you to say so? Had it not been for Churchianity, Christianity would have been limited in its scope and reach. People of Europe, Americas, and Australia would have been practicing paganism as their ancestors did had it not been for the Medieval Inquisition and the series of Inquisitions that followed it. If Goa has a large number of brown Christians, it is because of the Portuguese Inquisition that lasted over 250 years. Hence, it is not a strawman that I was attacking. Christianity owes its rampant expansion to it. A discussion on Christianity will be incomplete without discussing Churchianity.
You do the Chennai Inquisition through violence to begin with and then let it last for at least a few centuries. Then unleash a wave of inculturation. The older memories will die out with the passage of time and the newer generations who would not know of their antecedents’ spiritual moorings because of the iron curtain will eventually begin to identify with the alien philosophy.
There was a dark age in christianity under the authority of a few Popes. The dark age was because of Islam and idolatry which tried to take over the holy land. The Papacy sent crusaders to fight them and Portughese inquisition was a part of it. That was a religious fight in the early christianity. For the early christianity had bore the wrath of heathen nations in killing millions of early christians. After losing millions of early christians, Catholicism took a stand and fought out the heathen nations over their faith.
So as I say Portughese inquisition was a part of it. Emperor Nero was like Hitler. Nero persecuted millions of christians on account. He was known for having captured Christians burned in his garden at night for a source of light. This view is based on the writings of Tacitus, Suetonius, and Cassius Dio, the main surviving sources for Nero’s reign. Roman Catholicism has its dark history. Catholics are NOT the owners or forefathers of christianity. Protestants call them Roman Catholics NOT christians.
I am sure the Indian Hindus had nothing to do with the early Christians getting a raw deal from the heathens. Then, why were they made to suffer in Goa? And, in any case, Vicjags maintained that Christ’s way is the way of Love, then why resort to violence to spread his message?
In early christianity later on the Papacy took hold of the holy land Israel because they had their stake of faith in it. Centuries after that dark ages those Kings who were christians after they conquered foreign lands they militarily carried inquisitions especially Spanish and Portughese. It was the Portughese King who ordered the inquisition NOT the Papacy of Rome in Goa inquisitions and wherever they occupied lands.
If you look at the ancient history the Conquerers enforced their own belief systems on the land they conquered except Darius I, Ashuraures, Cyrus, Alexander and Brits.
Missionaries of Society of Jesus were sent to Goa and the Portuguese colonial government supported the mission with incentives for baptized Christians. They offered rice donations for the poor, good positions in the Portuguese colonies for the middle class and military support for local rulers. Many newly converted Indians were opportunistic Rice Christians, who still practiced their old religion. This was seen as a threat to the purity of Christian belief. St. Francis Xavier, in a 1545 letter to John III of Portugal, requested an Inquisition to be installed in Goa.
Rice is the staple food of all coastal people anywhere in the world. You mean to say that until Portughese came those people were going hungry without rice?
What you said in the rest of your comment is right. Thats why it is called an inquisition.
Poverty existed in every era. BTW, rice Christian is a term used, usually pejoratively, to describe someone who has formally declared himself/herself a Christian for material benefits rather than for religious reasons. So, it is not necessarily only rice that was on offer.
@Vicjags : No problem there.
we will leave the Original Sin here as you dont seems to have the logical arsenal to validate this so called “belief” of christianity.
Hope that we are still of the understand that we will have a “DEBATE” on the topic ” Why christianity is the ONLY true path and on the validity of concept of Salvation in christianity”.
Ankur, I have already explained in details your questions. Ctrl F for yourself. Jesus is the only WAY to reach God and salvation can be reached thru the blood of Jesus Christ thru faith in Him.
Christianity is made up religion by the Romains and imposed on the world through pure hate. Only reason why christianity is as big as it is today has to do with force by the gun, sword, and manipulation. The utter murderous genocide the church did to the native Americas, both in South and North America is unbelievable. To try and claim in any way that christianity is remotely close to love is the biggest prank on the world. You have to be a total stupid to believe that is about love. We can go page after pager after page after page of the history of christianity and the devastation it caused worldwide. The pure hate and venom it used to conquer people. Christianity is the worlds largest murdering machine. The number of people who were murdered by christianity is unbelievable. No other religion can even match the shear number of people brutally murdered and lives destroyed because of that religion. Christianity is a global disaster. A plague we have never seen, followed closely by its sister islam. It’s like cancer and aids. which one would you like to deal with. The only one out of the Abhramic religions that hasn’t proselytized through force is Judaism. Probably the only group that has some dignity out of the lot of extremist faiths of Abraham.
To All,
I have asked repeated this to Mr. Spanky:
“Mr. Spanky, a.k.a. Mac,
As I said before, you keep posting false things about Vedas and Dharmic people. I asked you before Mr. Spanky, if you are going to make a claim about either, provide proof from an approved translated copy of the Vedas:
1. Tell use how translated the that copy of the Vedas
2. Which verse you are talking about
3. Which Vedic group approves it
4. Where can I go buy or checkout a copy of it.
5. Who published that copy of the Vedas.”
Mr. Spanky keeps running away. He has no gutts and is spineless. Only a coward would make such ridiculous claims without proof. Mr. Spanky redial is page with all kinds of claims about Vedic people, but he didn’t provide an ounce of proof from the Vedas from an approved Vedic source. He needs to stop being a little girl and be a man for once. GIVE US REAL PROOF.
Whеn I was lοokіng oνer this is inѕpіrеd us to begіn studying the ѕubject a much more.
I found οne to dеfіnitely ԁеfinitely be the beѕt reѕоuгсеs since when I wаѕ іnsiԁe the mаrκet for thіngs muсh like Who was Rama – Myth or Historical Hero – Agniveer I ѕtumbled upon a signifiсant junk.
Glаd to loсate there’s certainly still some decent minded individuals.
So here is the basic breakdown of what happened with Mr. Spanky’s argument, a.k.a. Mac, a.k.a. vicjags. He came on here to try and demonize the Vedic faith and point to some problems. He tried to harpoons us with the argument that Vedic people worship idols and believe in caste system. Once he discovered he did not do proper research on Vedic people, and realized Vedic people are against idol worship and caste system he had to redo his argument. He realized if he keeps using the idol worship argument his people will also fight him on the jesus angle as well because that is idol worship as well. And for people who are totally against idol worship would not worship Krishna as an idol why would they worship jesus as an idol. (It’s funny every christian you talk to, gives you a different status of jesus. It’s like they don’t even know. Sometimes he is god, other times he is only the son of god, but not allowed to be prayed to. It’s like they are ashamed to admit where their jesus stand for them. Because they don’t want to look like idol worshipers. LMAF)
So his new argument was to create a straw man argument. Basically make an artificial scenario and see if we will bite. Since he can’t get us on the idol worship and caste system argument because Vedic people don’t believe in it; he tells us we are all sinner. In order for this argument to work, he needs to get everyone to believe yes we are all sinners. Sorry, bud, but that won’t work. Because again his argument is obliterated because we don’t believe in that junk. We believe everyone is inherently divine.
So in the final stage, the jesus extremists, started to talk shit and do some long long long long copy and paste posts to try and convert. Maybe if they put the longest post on this page, more people will listen to them. lol………. Instead people just ignore those long as posts. Ultimately they have no argument, they know they follow shit for face religion, a.k.a. Christianity and now they bitch and act like little girls because they didn’t convince anyone. If anything, it helped more Vedic people realize what a retarded religion Christianity is and how hate full they are to Vedic people. It is a religion that loves to demonize and will get no where without the use of force and trickery. It can never have an honest debate. They always start out by demonizing the other group. Only a religion of hate does that.
When I originally commented I clicked the “Notify me when new comments are added”
checkbox and now each time a comment is added I get four e-mails with the same comment.
Is there any way you can remove me from that service?
Thank you!
@MAC/Vicjac,
Thanks for visiting agniveer website and providing your comments.
Since you guys claim that Christianity is about love and peace then please answer few of my doubt’s
1. Who wrote bible
2. Who burned all the documents from the oldes church (which is located in kerala)
Bible 66 books are written by 40 prophets over a period of 1600 years starting from Moses. Kerala is a christian state as there are more christians in Kerala. Some of them are real jews who migrated to India during the first destruction of temple of Jerusalem and Apostle Thomas came there after two decades after Jesus ascended to heaven. Christianity didnt developed so much in India then, as Apostle Thomas is called the doubting Thomas. He literally put his finger in the wound of Jesus in His chest, although Jesus appeared to Him in flesh after His resurrection. So, Apostle Thomas performed a miracle talking to about 300 brahmins who were performing sun worship ritual by pouring water to sun god then at the ocean, when he came and rest is history.
all should embrace hinduism
The history of the rise of Christianity has everything to do with politics, culture, and human frailties and nothing to do with supernatural manipulation of events. Had divine intervention been the guiding force, surely two millennia after the birth of Jesus he would not have a world where there are more Muslims than Catholics, more Hindus than Protestants, and more nontheists than Catholics and Protestants combined.
— John K. Naland, “The First Easter”, Free Inquiry magazine, Vol. 8, No. 2
@vicjags : so bro you are back for good.let go back to where we left and you give your opening argument , where we left is here.
http://agniveer.com/rama-myth-or-hero/#comment-25414
@Vicjags
We all here know about your interpretaion skills. 🙂 Let’s not get into these things.
It was not only about numbers that i didn’t even intended. The point John Naland was making that Jesus was not some divine dude. Otherwise how come there are so many people on this planet who didn’t follow his path even after 2000years from his birth?
As far as Vedas are concerned, they scrap the rediculous theory of some God taking birth or sending his son/prophet to save humanity. No DIVINE thing interferes in our activities. So obviously we have to do all the interpretaions/analysis to save ourselves.
—This website is different, mostly filled with fools and fundamentalist bigots who cannot tolerate any arguments against their faith… —-
Look who is talking, one who himself can’t tolerate any arguments against his faith & pursuing Agniveer to put down it comments which he didn’t like.
Abusing people, calling them charlatans, bigots etc wouldn’t serve the purpose here.
—-but the best way these fellows were able to respond was by bringing in atrocities of the medieval church; Goa inquisitions; personal integrity of Francis xavier; British colonialism etc and hence argue Christianity is invalid…—-
‘The Bible contains far more verses praising or urging bloodshed than does the Koran, and biblical violence is often far more extreme, and marked by more indiscriminate savagery. The Koran often urges believers to fight, yet it also commands that enemies be shown mercy when they surrender. Some frightful portions of the Bible, by contrast, go much further in ordering the total extermination of enemies, of whole families and races – of men, women, and children, and even their livestock, with no quarter granted.’
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
Lets see what our self-proclamied rationalist @Vicjags has to say on this….
Intolerance towards other religions/cults
“If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall NOT LIVE, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.” (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
2 Chronicles 15:13
But that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.
http://www.openbible.info/topics/apostasy
—-Sorry, I’m no idiot to explain to you fellows the difference between thye Old covenant and the New covenant.—
As if we’re depended on you, smarty pants.
Everytime i bring those verses, christian apologetics always put this rubbish argument of old testament/convenant vs new.
Please let us know where the bible talk about new convenant and where it has written in new convenant that we don’t need to follow older one anymore?
Before putting your argument, remember this: Malachi 3:6 says that God doesn’t change. 😉
And this one is from New Testament, just in case….
Romans 1:26-32.(Killing of Gays)
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
covenant* typo error
@Vicjags : well then you have personalized version of Christianity(may be its not even Christianity except that your feel a linkage or affinity to Christ and some chosen set of beliefs from the super set,same as million of other people have the similar affinity for x, y and z ), there is no problem with that but it seems the people here are debating and questioning the actual biblical and widely believed-in christian faith.You can defend and stand by your ideology and personal belief system,but at the same time your arguments may not be taken to defend the set of belief system that is known as Christianity.
There might be people who you do not like due to their so call behavior or perosnal attributes , that is at a individual level but that in no way can be taken as an argument in or against Vedic belief system.
We have to know what we are debating to begin with.
some points
a) it was yagnivalka that used Neti Neti as part of brahadaryanak upnishad.
b) there is no Aryan or Dravidian Race, the AIT has been debunked by all well know 21 century historians and archeologists, but i don’t know why ONLY INDIANS and still referring to it, there is an article on the same on this very website.
You need to keep your “Reply” button, in case somebody wants to answer you. You are talking about Romans 1:26-32.(Killing of Gays). Do you know there were Elamites (Desi/Indians) mixture? Well you dont know that. Let me tell you that Soddom and Gommorah and in total 5 cities which God destroyed with fire, which are now what we call DEAD SEA, it is still there for people like you to visit. He dumped over 60 feet of burning brimstones and sulphur on those cities and it is still there. Do you know that those cities were so bad that even the wild animals and the birds of the air KNEW and never dared to enter those cities. Ajanta Elora caves, very many shiv temples, Khajuraho, it was worst than that. Bestiality, group sex, pedophilry and worst you can imagine was there. If a stranger enters those cities, they have to wait at the public square and anybody would come and pick them up and have sex with them the way they want to. It was so bad and they were into idolatry and local demon worship and they were DESIS, Elamite mixture. This is just for your information motherlover.
all the stories in the bible are considered myths by all top most historians even your true biblical scholors agree on this by the way there isnt even good enough evidence to say jesus was a real person but if by chance he did exist he was nothing like what the bible mentions about him
Bible and World history matches perfectly well. I have already proved these facts somewhere on this blog. You can Ctrl F and type in my name you will find it. I don’t want to repeat it.
http://serveveda.org/?p=87
some scientific data
Am very impressed with the splendid work being done by the I-SERVE team.
Its some desparation of our christian brother vicjags that brings him here and put those comments. He will call us homophobe, murderer, liar, silly, fanatic and every other bad word he knew. Why??? because We questioned his faith. I won’t respond to all his comments coz i am not here to satisfy my personal ego by getting into ad hominems like him.
As a follower of sanatan dharma, i don’t have priviledge to be a homophobe, hate anything for that matter except hatred, its all yours.
Old Covenant or the Old Law associated with the Old Testament and the leadership of Moses AND New Covenant associated with the New Testament and the leadership of Jesus. Whatever it is, but my point was Chirstian apologists always put that argument to confuse people.
Here are the full verses & lets examine what it has to say in the end.
—It says God follows the policy of Non- interference and gives upon them and leaves them to their own ways—-
But the below verse has different meaning
1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto VILE AFFECTIONS: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
So here god himself is giving peole vile affections, is it called non-interference? God is some gay making machine in bible.
1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
—-IT SIMPLY DOESN’T COMMAND YOU TO KILL THE GAYS…—
1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without NATURAL AFFECTION, implacable, unmerciful:
So who are those without natural affection? Homosexuals
1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
And what its next verse says? ‘They(it doesn’t specificly say that ‘excluding homosexulas’ which vicjags tried to convey) which commit such things are worthy of death.”
@Vicjags : i felt that only your atheist personification is worth responding
As per Sanatan Dharma, there are the minimum and non-excusable ten attributes of “Dharma” (which is not Religion as we understand in the west, by any way) and everything else revolves around them.
“Dhrati Kshama Damah Asteyam Shoucham indriya nigrahah Dhi vidya satyam akrodh dashakam dharma lakshanam”
1.Dhrati-Fortitude is reflected in the form of courage and strength when facing pains or troubles in life. It means the patience which is exhibited by a person even in case of difficulties of life.
2.Kshama-means ability to forgive and give another chance to righteousness. Forgiveness is not an attribute of a weak but only a spiritually strong, composed and broadminded person can forgive even his enemies for their misdeeds. People who are slaves of their own emotions and mood swings can never exhibit such an attribute and are unable to forgive (fundamental Islam, Christianity and nowadays astray Hindus)
3.Damah-Control over mind and desires. All the decisions in life of a person should not be governed by his uncontrolled desires but should be taken by stable mind unaffected from worldly sensational cravings and emotions of attachment and fear.
4.Asteyam-Non stealing exhibited by the attributes like honesty and integrity. The person should believe in taking the ownership of only those things, which are earned by hard work and labor.
5.Shouch-Purity: indicates internal and as well as external purity. The person should not only take care of his body and surroundings for cleanliness but also should try to make his mind pure without any negative emotions, desires and attachments.
6. Indriya Nigrah-Control of sensory organs: Every human being perceives this world by five senses (indriya) given by GOD, which are Ears, Skin, Eyes, Tongue and Nose. Man perceives Shabd, Sparsh, Roop , Rasa, Gandh (Sound, Touch, Form, Taste and Smell) by the help of these sensory organs respectively. Control of all these senses and not allowing negative stimuli to make an impression in the grooves of the mind is called Indriya Nigrah (Sense Control). This art is also called Mind Control. Scriptures prescribes various methods/yoga to achieve this. Meditation is one among those methods.
7. Dhi-Wisdom: indicates the power to discriminate between right and wrong. This helps a person while adhering to his Dharma and he is able to analyses and identify the right path to proceed irrespective of the difficulties in his way and temptations to take an easier but wrong path.
8. Vidya-Knowledge:refers to the education as well as the practical knowledge about laws of life. The knowledge should always be crowned with humility. A person who is down to earth with humility is a real knowledgeable person.
9. Satyam-Truthfulness: The essence of life is seeking the truth and following the path of truthfulness. It not only helps a person in living a peaceful life but also acts as a strong spiritual Armour providing strength to the person in most difficult situations of life.
10. Akrodho-Absence of futile and unjust anger: Which means the person is not angered and remain composed and in control of his senses in-spite of all the provocations.
No matter where a human is placed on the planet if he/she exhibits all these 10 traits, if all of us follow the above we WILL achieve the egalitarian society that you talk about, as you rightly asset Only when you leave behind superstitions and take control of your own life, true human progress can be achieved and this is exactly what Veda talks about “None except you are responsible for your actions and its consequence(s)”.
Such an arrogance did it show by revealing the divinely inspired Vedas only to brown men
— w.r.t the color, this is a strwman.
Veda was revealed to rishis as a result of their own spiritual perfections and supremacy,Ishwar did not have to choose anyone.
only a seed with the right and requisite environment will sprout, it natural;an analogy though not precise.
if Vedas are the only divinely inspired word of God as many Hindus claim, why did their racist God wait till 21st century to raise a noble man named Agniveer and let the world know of his divine Vedas through him.
— you are analyzing with the western gaze here . Ishwar did not do anything, its the individual (jiva) that has done it.
Veda aids a individual with the know-how and exposition of the above 10 traits plus other varied facets of a successful and blissful human life, they may seem straight forward but can be pretty difficult to practice,attributed to human psyche’s intricacies
There were multiple instances of Indian sages who were initially warmongering kshatrias had an enlightening experience with divine and left their old ways and followed the life of Yogi.. Similarly, If ishwar had willed even Ghazini/Ghori and Aurangazeb would have been sages and Gurus.. It is ishwar’s fault that he discriminated between ancient Rishis with whom he started human civilization and mughal invaders.
-Thats exactly what veda say, its your own effort that will lead you to its consequence be it good or bad; for the individual or the society, the kshatriyas that you refer made a choice to weigh things at their face value and rest did not (as they were doing the bidding of a book shunting out the point 3 and 6 from the above, mostly all of them were not present.)
Now the new Hindu breed wants a share of the temple income and thus have taken up the ideals of their 100 yr old saint and have started vigorously preaching against Murti pooja and promoting the “Divine Vedas” as the guide for humanity..
— The point is whatever the 100 yr old saint said and preached, it is from the Veda , the crux of the matter is that Veda contains knowledge that will lead to humans maximizing their physical and mental potential and thus lead to a blissful and balanced society as a good human who is embodiment of the Dharma can only build such a society , society (samaj) is nothing but a projection of the ideology of the people which comprise it.
one does not need to follow any book beyond these 10 traits to be precise.But the need arose from the fact the Human consciousness is very intricate and has positive potential that lies dormant and has to be explored and aroused , that’s is the main reason there has been a vast amount of time spent on the inner workings of a human mind (precise mana, chita) so as to achieve a perfect society keeping in mind the 10 traits and how be able to practice them in perfection.
No doubt there has been lot of dogma in the name of dharma and lot of fooling around initiated by people with their own agenda, but that by no means undermines Dharma and the means to it -The Veda
Om Shanti.
stop looking at eastern religions with western eye they are nothig like the abrahamic religions i wouldnt even call eastern religions as religions
do i know you by chance? whats your real name