Who was Rama – Myth or Historical Hero

rama_3We present an insightful article by eminent scholar of Vedas and History – Sri Rajveer Arya (aryarajveer @ gmail.com) written three years ago on the issue of Sri Rama being a myth or a historical legend. Its evident from the facts that Sir Rama was not only an Indian legend but a global phenomenon. There can be nothing more shameful than living in India and yet denigrating one of its greatest role models. Kindly read and circulate widely on eve of the Ayodhya judgement:

Nowadays, the issue of Ramsetu is highly talked about by many people. The government filed an affidavit before the Supreme Court which clearly denies the historical existence of Shri Rama on this earth. However, the strong opposing political parties, and other Hindu activists forced that the givernment withdrew the affidavit. Some Hindu organizations like Vishwa Hindu Parishad, claim that posing questions relating to the existence of Rama cannot be simply answered by scientific or historical data.

The existence of Rama is basically a question of faith for millions of people. Therefore, no government or any other party can deny the existence of Rama. Some of these so-called “great advocates” of Hinduism did not show guts to take on the Government/Karunanidhi, and proved that Rama is as historical fact and not a myth.

Nevertheless, they were supported from unexpected quarters like the Hurriyat conference from Kashmir. Hurriayat also claimed that scientific or historical evidence is not the yardstick to judge various issues related to religion. Hence, whether Rama existed or not cannot be decided on basis of scientific or historical findings. This is basically associated with religious sentiments of millions of people around the world, and therefore the interference of any government or political party is undesired.

As of now, many scientists, based on astronomical data, have propounded that Rama existed around 5044 BC. In such a perplexing situation it becomes very difficult for common masses to arrive at any conclusive view regarding the existence of Rama. Hence, we have to first analyze various facts regarding Rama, and his epic, Ramayana, before arriving on any final verdict.

Maharishi Valmiki, in order to guide the future generations, decided to write a historical epic that can help everyone follow a path of morality and righteousness. He ended up in a dilemma regarding this issue. Later on, he consulted Narada Muni, who in return suggested him to write about Rama, the son of Dasratha, who was born in the clan of Raghu.

Similarly, Mahakavi Kalidas wrote Raghuvansham. This book throws light on the lineage of Raghu, and also states various kings who ruled after Rama. So, now the point of the argument is that if Rama was a mythological character, then how did Valmiki provide the history of Rama’s forefathers?

In Raghuvansham, how did Kalidasa provide details of Rama’s forefathers, and his various Santatis (successors) who ruled after him? In present times various books dealing with stories of Rama are prevalent in India and around the world. We will throw light on this issue in the latter part of this article.

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WHEN WAS RAMA BORN: (based on Valmiki`s Ramayana)

One of the most anticipated topics in this modern era is that when was Rama born?

Before dwelling onto this point, we have to understand that our great Maharishies have systematically divided the period of shristi into Manvantars. Each Manvantar is further divided into chaturyugis. Each chaturyugis consist of Krita (satyuga), traita, dwapar, and kaliyuga. The present Manvantar is Vaivast Manvantar. So far, twenty-seven chaturyugies have already been passed. Right now, it is the 28th chaturyugi, and we are still in the first charan (period) of this chaturyugi.

It is a well-known fact that Rama was born during the latter part of traita. Hence, if we assume that Rama was born in the present chaturyugi, then it means that he was born at least 1,000,000 years ago. The period of his birth will probably be more than this.

However, Vayu purana provides us the correct chronological period of Ramayana. If we take Vayu purana’s period into consideration then the period of Rama becomes at least 18,000,000 years old. Hence, we can easily conclude that the period of Rama in the time scale is at least 1000,000 to 8,000, 000 years. This issue will be resolved in another topic called “Blunders of Indian History”).

This particular view is also supported by the fact that when Hanuman travelled to Shri Lanka in the search of Sita, over there he saw elephants having four teeth. Hence, this is now an issue for archaeologists/biologists to ascertain when did such elephants exist on earth? (The calculations of chaturyugies will be dealt with in another topic called “Age of present shristi”).

The difficulties encountered in establishing chronological correctness of historical events for the period before Christ will be dealt with in the other article called “Blunders of History.”  Another interesting fact that has been mentioned in Valmiki’s Ramayana is that the maternal home of Bharat and Shatrughan was in a country where transportations took place in the form of vehicles being propelled by dogs or deers. When the two brothers returned to Ayodhya from their maternal home, they crossed many places covered by snow, and were also dressed up in clothes made of wool. Now, the location in which this episode took place is yet to be ascertained.

According to our logic, this episode took place in Russia, and phonetically Russia sounds like misnomer of a Rishi, but this has been taken care of in our article called “Blunder of Indian/World history”. From the facts mentioned above, it clearly gives us an insight into the period of Rama’s birth. So, those who claim that Rama is only a mythological character have been proven wrong since we have provided them with so much evidence in this article. We will also establish that before the advent of Christianity and Islam, Rama was revered throughout the world as an international cult figure.

LEGENDS OF RAMAYANA IN VARIOUS PARTS OF GLOBE

1) RAMAYANA IN RUSSIA AND MANGOLIA:

The Deccan Herald, on 15th December 1972, on its front page gave the news in which it stated that a story relating to Ramayana was published in Elista, capital city of Kalmyk, in Russia. The news further stated that various legends of Ramayana were popular among people of Kalmyk. Many versions of Ramayana are already stored in the libraries of Kalmyk. The news clearly stated that legends of Ramayana were extremely popular since time immemorial. Domodin Suren, a Russian writer, has mentioned various legends that were popular among Mongolian and Kalmyk people. Prof C F Glostunky`s manuscript called “Academy of Sciences”, is located at Siberian Branch of Erstwhile, U.S.S.R. This book deals with various legends popular along the Coast of Volga River, and its manuscript is in the Kalmyk language. Last, but not the least, in Leningrad, a great number of books dealing with stories of Ramayana are still available and preserved even today in Russian and Mongolian languages.

2) RAMAYANA IN CHINA:-

In China, a large collection of Jatak stories related to various events of Ramayana, which date back to 251 A.D, were compiled by Kang Seng Hua. Another book from 742 AD, which relates the story of plight of Dasratha after Rama, was ordered to go for Vanvasa is still present in China. Similarly, in 1600 AD, His-Yii-Chii wrote a novel called Kapi (monkey) which elaborated on the stories of Ramayana, predominantly that of Hanuman.

3) RAMAYANA IN SRILANKA:-

Naresh Kumar Dhatusena also known as Kumardasa, who ruled Sri Lanka in 617 AD, wrote a book called, “Janakiharan”. This is the oldest Sanskrit literature available in Sri Lanka. In Modern Times, C. Don Bostean and John D`Silva have written stories based on Ramayana. Till now, majority of the population adore and highly respect the duo of Rama and Sita.

4) RAMAYANA IN COMBODIA (KAMPUCHIA):

Today, there are many rock inscriptions belonging to 700 AD, which are located in Khmer region of Cambodia. These rock inscriptions are based on the events of Ramayana. Many temples were constructed during the reign of Khmer dynasty, and currently, their walls depict many scenes and events of Ramayana. The temples of Ankor are very famous for the stories of Ramayana and Mahabharata. These temples belong to the earliest parts of the time period dating back from 400 AD to 700 AD. One astonishing fact in these engraved pictures is that Hanuman and the rest of the other Vanars are not shown with their tails as it is against the popular belief of the masses. (Whether Hanuman was a monkey or not, this issue will be examined later on)

5) RAMAYANA IN INDONESIA:

According to De Casperis, there was a temple named “Chandi Loro Jongrong”, which had some scenes of Ramayana engraved on its walls. This temple was from the 9th century AD. In Indonesia, another version of a story from Ramayana named Kakavin is very popular. This story is a bit different from that of Prambanan. Besides this, there were other various versions of Ramayana related stories, which were present in those early centuries after Christ, and also proves itself that Ramayana was very popular among Indonesian people before advent of Islam. It is also an astonishing fact that the first international convention on Ramayana was organized in Indonesia, a few years back.

6) RAMAYANA IN LAOS:

When local people pronounce Loas in their language, it phonetically sounds like the name of one of the sons of Rama. Besides, the temple of Vat- She-Fum and Vat-Pa-Kev also depict many scenes of Ramayana on their walls. The temples of Vat-Pra-Kev and Vat-Sisket carry books that contain the epic of Ramayana. Lafont, a French traveler translated the story of, “Pa laka-Pa lama” in his book called, “P`ommachak”, in French. This book also deals with the story of Ramayana, which is still popular among the masses of Laos.

7) RAMAYANA IN THAILAND:-

The stories of Ramayana are still very popular among the masses. In the early centuries after Christ, many kings who ruled this country had Rama as the prefix or suffix in their name. Just like in India how we organize the play of Ramayana, till today, many dramatic versions of Ramayana are organised in Thailand as well. Similarly, many dramatic versions of Ramayana are still being organized in various South East Asian countries like Indonesia, Malaysia, and Cambodia.

8) RAMAYANA IN MALAYSIA:-

In Malaysia till today plays are oraganised based on the stories of ‘HIKAYAT SERI RAMA’ ,written in 14 century AD,. Dalang society organize nearly 200-300 plays relating to Ramayana. Before commencement of the play people conduct various prayers and abulations revering RAMA and SITA.

9) RAMAYANA IN BURMA:-

King Kayanjhitha who reigned during 1084 –1112 AD; regarded himself as desecendant of clan of Rama. Various books relating to the stories of Ramayana as earlier as 15 century AD are still found in Burma. Books like ‘Kavyadarsh’ , ‘Subhasit Ratanidhi’ are based on the stories of Ramayana. Zhang-Zhungpa, commentary of Ramayana was written by Taranath, which is not available in modern times. In Burma also various form of plays are conducted based on the stories of Ramayana.

Who-was-Rama-–-Myth-or-Historical-Hero

10) RAMAYANA IN NEPAL:-

Oldest version of Ramayana, belonging ot 1075 AD is still found in Nepal.

11) RAMAYANA IN PHILIPINES:-

Effect of stories of Ramayana can easily felt in the customs, traditions and legends of majority of masses. Prof Juon R Francisco found that in Marineo Muslims, legend based on Ramayana is popular, in which Rama has been depicted as Incarnation of God. Similarly among Magindanao or Sulu folk Muslims also various legends based on the stories of Ramayana are popular.

12) RAMAYANA IN IRAN:

In Hyderabad city, capital of Andhra Pradesh, there is museum name Salarjung. There one portrait which is depicting a burly monkey having a very big stone in its hand. This portrait reminds one of Hanuman holding Dronagiri. Similarly Marco Polo in his book (translated by Sir Henry Yule in English) wrote at page no 302, vol II about a peculiar belief among Muslims, spread from Afganistan to Morocco and Algeria. These Muslims believed that members of imperial house of Trebizond were endowed with short tails while mediavel continentals had like stories about Englishmen as- Mathew Paris relates…. ; .

We are of the belief that if one seriously start investigating various legends prevalent, before advent of Islam and Christianity, in Arabic countries and European countries than existence of Ramayana and Mahabharta can be proved. Due to barbaric and dogmatic acts of these peoples wide range of literature and buildings of historical importance has been wiped out.

13) RAMAYANA IN EUROPE:

In Italy, when excavation were carried out in the remains of Astrocon civilization, then various houses were found having peculiar type of paintings on their wall. These paintaings, on closure investigation, seems to be based on the stories of Ramayana. Some of the paintings shows peculiar persons having tails along with two men bearing bows and arrow on their shoulders, while a lady is standing besides them. These paintings are of 7 century BC. It should be remembered that once Astrocon civilization was spread over 75 pct of Italy.

Sir Henry Yule in his translation of works of Marcopolo has refered to the belief prevalent among Medival Europeans that there Ancestors were having small tails. The same fact has been referred by Maharishi Dayanand in his magnum opus ‘Satyarth Prakash’. There Swamiji state that people of Europe were called as Vanaras(monkeys) ,due to their appreance in our epic like Mahabharta, Valmiki Ramayana etc. If we a analyse this statement in present context, then how we are going to define various statements like kangaroos(Australian team) meet men in blue(Indian team) at Calcutta.

Similar sort of epithets were used during World war to describe armies of different countries or else we see that we have helicopters named cheetah etc. As these words(epithets) are just a way to describe different set of people, arms etc, similarly world like Rakshas, Vanaras etc were used in our legends. These facts clearly indicates that legends of Ramayana are not work of fiction and were very popular around the world .

14) RAMAYANA IN AFRICA(CONTINENT):

People of Ethiopia call themselves as descendents of Cushites. This word Cush is basically phonectic misnomer of Kush, the son of Rama. This fact is verly established by Satpath Brahamans, commentary on Vedas. These Brahamans while explaining various mantras of Vedas uses many histrorical events to elucidate the topic.

Astonishingly in Satpath Brahaman we find reference regarding the rule of King Bharata (predecessor of Kaurav and Pandavs) in Rhodesia .

Besides many inconsistent legends inspired by epic of Ramayana are prevalent in African Communities and they basically refers to various activities of vanars.

Egypt basically derives its name from Ajpati which is one of the name of forefather of Rama. If analyse various legends prevalent in Egypt there we will found references of Dasratha(father of Rama). These facts can be very well established from various historical refernces of Brahamans.(for the proof of it see our article Blunders of Indian/World history)

15) RAMAYANA IN NORTH AMERICAN AND SOUTH AMERICAN CONTINENTS:

Before Columbus discovered North American continent European people were not knowing about it. However A DE QNATREFAGES in his book, THE HUMAN SPECIES, categorically says that Chinese people were aware about the American continent and the use to have trade relations with them America was referred as Fad-Sang. Similarly in Japanese people it was known as Fad-See. Similarly, if we refer to various historical reference in Mahabharata, Valmiki Ramayana etc we will find that American continent has been reffered as Patal Desh(Patal means below foot). If we geographically see then we will find that American continent is just below the Indian Subcontinent. We will throw greater light on this issue in our topic, BLUNDERS OF INDIAN HISTORY/WORLD HISTORY.

But for your reference we are providing you some prevalent legends.

a) Beautiful girl in Mexican tribal area till today are called as Ulopy. If we see in Mahabharata we find reference of Arjuna marrying girl named Ulopy who was daughter of King of Patal Desh.

b) W H Prescott in his book , ‘ History of conquest of Mexico’, provides various reference which prove that earlier civilization of American subcontinent have major similarities with that of Indian(Aryan) civilization.

However here we are providing you one reference which clearly state that Ramayana is not mythological epic but it bears historical testimony. According to writer of the book there is popular legend in Aztec community which state that a beautiful person named Quevtsal Katal came there from east and taught them various aspects of advanced civilization as a result his period was treated as golden era. He then went back to his original homeland because of persecution by some divine creature. This legends surprisingly does not throw light on the reasons why he returned.

Another interesting fact that has been stated by Prescott is that this legend is available in documented form. Now, none except Indian tradition can claim that they bear root to this legend. The same story has been narrated in Valmiki Ramayana, in uttarkand where it is mentioned that Salkantak Rakshas who dwelled in Lanka were persecuted by Vishnu. Due to this persecution they left Lanka and went to Patal Desh. The leader of this group was Sumali. According to Ramayana they lived in Patal Desh for long time. When they found condition congenial they returned to their homeland.

It is for readers to decide when such conclusive proof are there to establish that epic of Ramayana is not mythological legend but it is historical evidence which bears testimony to various legends prevalent around the world. Till today play named Ramasitotav is played in various communities of Mexico. To our amazement Rama has been mentioned in Bible, new testament, Mathew ch 2/18, where it is mentioned “ his voices was heard in RAMA”. Rama is proper noun there, now it is for biblical society to define who was Rama and why he has been mentioned in Bible.

Even the name of Dasratha and Ayodhya are there in Bible. We will be referring to these facts in Blunders of Indian/world History.

Now we would pose some tickling questions to the sickular historians:

1) Why month of fasting among muslims is called Ramadhan ?

2) Why place in Gazastrip is called Ramallaha ?

3) Why place in London is named as Ramsgate ?

4) Why capital of Italy is known as Rome(misnomer of Rama)

We can provide various examples where word Rama has been used as suffix or prefix with the names of various historical places/persons or misnomer of Rama has been used as name for historical places/persons. None of the historical evidence provides conclusive answer to these facts unless we take Indian historical evidences into account.

It is widely accepted that the King Alexander invaded India. It really sounds ironical that we are accepting this theory without any historical evidence, on the other hand we go on to deny existence of Rama despite various historical evidences are there to prove that he was not mythical but a historical Mahanayak.

These historians in order to refute Rama`s existence are ridiculously harping the same old tone of theory of evolution which does not have any scientific proof. (Why and how theory of evolution gained importance will be dealt in our article – How the universe is created. The only thing of significance regarding theory of evolution, we want to state here is that it was a tool which was invented to challenge the draconian supremacy of church. The church use to claim that this world was created by God out of nothing and the age of this Univerese is not more than 10000 years. By the help of evolutionary theory scientific world challenged the supremacy of churh and overcame the clergy.)

This is for readers to decide by themselves how they are going to treat Rama. We think that we have provided lot of food for thought. Those who are illogically biased may still refute the existence of Rama while those who are logical and believe that mythological character can never gain such world wide respect/reverence will start looking upon Rama from wider historical evidences.

Here we want to clarify following points:

1) Rama was a Mahanayak, a legendary person who lived a pristine life and is an example to be emulated till today.

2) Its immaterial whether Ramasetu, on which lot of controversy is being created, was built by Rama so far proving authenticity of Rama is concerned. Regardless of whether they prove Ramsetu to be manmade or natural creation, existence of Ram cannot be denied.

3) Valmiki Ramayana is not fiction but an epic based on historical evidence.

For those who are questioning existence of Rama, let them first justify whether their forefathers ever existed, by using the same yardstick that they are using to question the existence of Rama. At least there are more evidences of Rama being a historical hero than existence of forefathers of these historians.

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Comments

    • Advani says

      Since Hinduism has neither a single prophet nor a holy book, the VHP has stumbled upon the need to define all the characteristics of a formal religion. In the new Hinduism (Thapar refers to it as a Syndicated Hinduism) Ram is the Prophet, the Ramayan is the holy book and Ayodhya is the Vatican city of Hindus.
      And who are the popes? The ruling elite of the proposed Hindu rashtra – the BJP-VHP-RSS brotherhood, of course.

      • Vik says

        @Advani

        Hinduism only has one set of holy books, they are the Vedas, all the scriptures following Vedas were simply elaborations of Vedic teachings, but sadly many Puranas and Upanishads were corrupted over time. Only Vedas are 100 percent perfect and present today.

        Shri Ram and Shri Krishna were not prophets or agents to God, nor were they any incarnations, they were simply great human beings who lived live on Vedic teachings. They are our Role Models, and we should follow them as an example.

      • Murali Kumar says

        I can clearly see that you have to enlighten yourself.
        You are filled with hatred and you really dont understand the meaning of Sanatana Dharma.
        So, its worthless to even read your comment.

    • says

      Hi Agniveer,

      It is a wonderfully written article, but I have a few questions to clarify and understand the history better.

      1. When did valmiki write about the history of Ram and what was his source of info?
      2. What language did Ram and his followers speak of? so did Ravan and his followers?
      3. Any historical facts concluding definition of swastik sign and its evolution?

      I hope agniveer could enlighten on the above questions.

      Best regards

      • Krishnarao says

        Rozer,

        This is a Vedic site, we believe in one God who has no incarnations, prophets, son of god/s, superman, x-men, or idols. We believe in meditating on the infinite Gid who exists everywhere.

        Krishnarao

    • Dr.K.Amritha says

      Well,there are many implications of Ram killing Ravan.The most important and significant being the ultimate and eternal battle between good and bad,when always the good wins.Other significance being to impress upon the duty of a true and loyal husband of protecting his wife untill his last breath which is a norm according to hindu marriage tradition.The other implication being the very purpose why Lord Vishnu takes up Ramavatar as a mortal,so that He can crumple and destroy the DEMI-GOD called Ravan who is blessed with the ultimate wish from Lord Shiva of being indestructible.So,apparently its kinda an indirect fight between two Hindu GODs.BUT EVENTUALLY THE GOOD WINS.THATS THE ESSENCE OF LIFE…..ALWAYS GOOD WINS….BECAUSE ONLY GOD CAN BE GOOD…..ALWAYS GOD WINS,WHATSOEVER….THERE IS NOTHING CALLED PARTIALLY GOOD OR RECENTLY BEING HEARD ENTITY CALLED GREY….ITS EITHER GOOD OR BAD…….BEFORE ONE’S LAST BREATH……..ONE IS GOOD OR BAD……ONCE ONE BECOMES GOOD……..HE GETS UNITED WITH HIS CREATOR….THAT IS GOOD GOD…….I know I drifted,but……what I wanna say is that……whatever happens around us happens with GOD’s will and wish,all with a hidden purpose……..all we gotta do is just live having complete faith in HIM……which ironically is the most difficult part to be done,wherein we forget that,that only is the ultimate test to our faith in HIM…..So our journey goes on and on untill we realise this naked truth that….WE ARE BUT PART OF HIM…….WE GOTTA REACH HIM SOME DAY…..HE JUST WANTS US TO COME BACK HOME,THAT IS TO HIS ABODE,BEING AS PURE AS AT THE TIME WE WERE CREATED AND SENT TO THE ABODE OF MORTALS…….WE JUST GOTTA TRUST HIM……HE LOVES US AT THE END OF THE DAY BECAUSE WE WERE ONCE A PART OF HIM,AND WILL BE A PART OF HIM AT THE END.

  1. SSS says

    @ Agniveer:

    Above evidences state that Rama exist in history of the world…but no evidence prove that he belong to India…!!!

    “1) Why month of fasting among muslims is called Ramadhan?”
    Since the word itself refers different meaning in arabic and it doesn’t refer to a man…!!!

    [Wikipedia] — The word Ramadan is derived from arabic root “rmd” as in words like “ramiḍa” or “ar-ramaḍ” denoting intense heat, scorched ground and shortness of rations.

    Compare Rama’s life with the life of Abraham…Ibrahim…Brahmana…Rama…they have the internal relationships…

    Just do a research…you will know most of the things in the world…where it arises…

    Everyone knows a drop and not a ocean…!!!

    • SSS says

      @ Agniveer:

      Abraham’s original name was Abram…!!! He was the forefather to the generations…!!!

      Just do a research…you might be able to say more things…about Abraham…who was called as Ram in the scriptures…!!!

      Better to define the word “Brahmin” by deriving the word from Abraham…Ibrahim…

      Everyone knows a drop and not a ocean…!!!

      • Raja Krsnan says

        The word ‘Abram’ in Sanskrit means ‘devoid of God or Godliness’.

        that could be the reason the semetic tradition is very dry and ungodly in its approach, views.
        murder, mayhem, loot, rape are ordered by the so called god of semetics which ordinarily is the done by ungodly people. isn’t bible and quran full of such utterances – from their god and messengers?

        • SSS says

          @ Raja Krsnan:

          Wow…What an intelligence…!!!

          First read the life of Abraham and say the things…!!!

          Murder, mayhem, loot and rape are introduced by ppl like you and not from them…!!!

          • nehulai singham anattakarm says

            misguided fool.

            islam is but an eyeblink in the mind of BRAHMA. you and your kind are illusions created by the demon maya, and the still mind vanquishes you.

            the cosmos will engulf you quickly as you enact your animal rage which was born in the harsh deserts of your fathers, so i am not afraid.

            after many miscreant lives you were fortunately, inappropriately, born human.

            i do not wish you ill. neither do other children of the dharma.
            your karma is indelible and must be expiated.

            i take refuge.

            misguided fool.

          • SSS says

            @ nehulai singham anattakarm:

            Hey stupid brahmin…

            First answer the below questions…

            1. Why Ram killed Ravan…?
            2. Why Ram killed the innocent people of Lanka…?
            3. Why Hanuman burnt the whole city even the innocent people are still living there…?

            Who asked you to afraid of me…? I think you are already frightened…!!! :D :D :D

            Truth always wins…even ppl like you want to hide them in darkness…!!!

          • Arya says

            @SSS
            Find your answer below
            1. Because Ravan abducted Mata Sita

            2. Ram killed the army of Ravan, it was a war. Give the proofs that Ram killed innocents.

            3. This is a later day interpolation. Think logically, if Hanuman burnt whole city, where did Ravan and his people live???

            Even if Ram made mistakes, it is not necessary for you to repeat those. Vedas are ultimate and follow it.

          • SSS says

            @ Arya:

            Sir…I also know that it was a war…!!!

            I am asking Why it was a war…???

            Ravan abducted Mata Sita…

            Its the personal problem between Ram and Ravan…

            He should go and directly kill Ravan (killing Ravan for this is not a good act, bcoz Lakshman cut the nose of Ravan’s Sister…Will you allow anyone to cut your sister’s nose…???…)…why he declares war against a nation…???

            Because of a personal issue…why innocent people are killed…at both sides…???

          • Arya says

            @SSS
            Such act of a king is never a personal problem, remember that. Any person, who has committed such sin must be punished, and when this person is some king, the punishment should be severest. So Ram decided to punish him. But if you have read Ramayan, you would be knowing that Ram gave Ravan chance to surrender so that war does not happen and that is why he sent Angad to Ravan’s court as his messenger. But Ravan refused the peace message and then war happened. Not only Ram, but Vibheeshan and Kumbhkarna, who were brothers and well wishers of Ravan also suggested him to return Mata Sita to Ram. But Ravan did not listen to them too.

            Read Ramayan and then comment of cutting nose etc. Shoorpankha attacked Mata Sita and then Lakshman punished her. Ram never declared war against a nation. He was so great that after winning Lanka, he gave the kingdom of Lanka to Vibheeshan. What can be the biggest proof of Ram to be a noble person than this?

            Now SSS, if you want further conversation, please let us know your belief first. You have been smart enough till now by hiding your Islamic identity. I remember you praised Muhammad in your comments and then denied to be Muslim. So show courage, tell us who are you so that your beliefs can also be analysed here!

          • SSS says

            Guys: I just want to tell something…

            Nobody has seen the GOD…the Almighty…the Ultimate…

            We all are under one scope that…GOD is only one…he is powerful…he is super power…

            Every holy text…Vedas, Quran and Bible says the same…but in different words…

            Q: Has there been a fight among the prophets…???
            A: No

            Only the hatred remain within us and not between them…

            Prophets were called as Rishis…and they don’t have any misunderstanding in the concepts…
            Atleast lets come to this conclusion…

            If these prophets say…Believe in one GOD…lets believe…and if GODs ultimate aim is to make ppl to go to heaven…if we believe in one GOD…we will go to heaven definitely…but the GOD should not have any form…and he should be the super power…

            @ Arya: Now this is my belief…if you need any clarifications on this…let me know…

          • Tanveer says

            Dear SSS when you argue with agniveer and party, they say they don’t beleive in ramayan and mahabharat and they tell us to quote only from vedas. Here he is giving the entire history of ram. i am confused as to what agniveer and party trying to follow.

          • Indian Agnostic says

            Ram is a role model bro ..role models can be good for inspiration ..what’s the problem with that?

            that said , exploring TRUTH and exploring History are two different things ..one should not confuse between the two :)

            ironically in Islam following Muhammad is as much a necessity as following Quran ..even the Quran says that one who follows the messenger only is a muslim..So Quran orders that the hadit and sirat be taken as a part and parcel of it

            where does the vedas say that you have to obey rama or krishna otherwise you are not following dharma?..NOWHERE!

            that’s the simple difference which you are unable to appreciate..hope this clears your misconception

            for others, here’s some sound byte
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3kWSpv7UXM

          • Indian Agnostic says

            Brother Tanveer

            Rather than blaming ‘Agniveer and party’, you must blame all for making it MANDATORY to follow the messenger.

            sample these:
            Quran[3:32]
            Say: OBEY Allah and THE MESSENGER. But if they turn away, lo! Allah loveth not the disbelievers (in His guidance).
            source:http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/024.qmt.html#024.047

            Quran[24:52]
            It is such as OBEY Allah and HIS MESSENGER, and fear Allah and do right, that will win (in the end)
            source:http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/024.qmt.html#024.052

            Quran[8:1]
            They ask thee concerning (things taken as) spoils of war. Say: “(such) spoils are at the disposal of Allah and the Messenger: So fear Allah, and keep straight the relations between yourselves: OBEY Allah and HIS MESSENGER, if ye do believe.”
            source:http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/008.qmt.html#008.001

            So right from judment, to loot of war to religious duty ..you must obey the messenger..otherwise you will become a KAFIR just like ‘Agniveer and party’ [ you are most welcome by the way :) ]

            So in order to obey Allah you need the quran …now how do you obey the messenger? ..what else if not the hadit sunnah?

            so your objection is unfair bro

          • says

            Dear Tanveer,

            Instead of picking and choosing aimlessly, why don’t you share your candid views on http://agniveer.com/2623/islam-will-not-be-a-threat-if/#comment-8453

            Please be clear on this article, and only then you deserve to be debating on other articles and other points with visitors. Because unless you are clear on the points in this article, it only shows that you are also yet another fanatic non-Muslim hater who is doing Al-Taqiah to fool the world. The only way for you to get out of this image is by very clearly putting your views on http://agniveer.com/2623/islam-will-not-be-a-threat-if .

            There are a lot of terrorist mindsets also debating on this forum, and the only way to separate good Muslims from these perverts would be to demand their views on http://agniveer.com/2623/islam-will-not-be-a-threat-if article and a few more issues.

            The larger issues should be sorted out first before hair splitting on minor points. In fact hence forth, before anyone defends Islam on this site, we would demand his clear views on http://agniveer.com/2623/islam-will-not-be-a-threat-if and only then allow them to debate on other minute things. This is necessary to preserve the dignity of good muslims.

            Admin

          • chanakya says

            mr.sss……..ur view is true….every one knows only drop…yes……..in dis site they are saying dat metrnal home of bharatha and sathrugna saw were people use to transport things using dogs and deers…..in snow……probably russia……..so…….may be y cant v think dat rama forefathers is an ARYANS…came from…..EUROPE…..and max of d people dey will say dat never took place aryan invasion……….
            my question is………if rama brothers are capable of going such far distances…….is’nt possible for other people who are staying in dat area to come to india………..y cann’t it happend………..
            how can v say dat d GREAT SO CALLED VEDAS are written by INDIANS……
            im not critising india or indians………i love india……..but v need to know FACTS………..

        • Mac says

          Abram means ‘Exalted father’ or ‘The father is exalted’. In the biblical story, God changed his name to Abraham, which means ‘Father of multitudes’ or “Father of Nations”. Sarah was his wife. Sarah means “Princess”.

          • Krishna says

            1. Abraham could have been derived from Brahma and Sara from saraswathi.

            Shift the A from Abraham and it would spell Brahma and Sara is the first four letters of Saraswathi.

            2. The Jews could have called Ab-ram meaning father of Ram.

            Think again….

      • babaramdev says

        stop comparing with Abrahim with foolish Ram, he never lived in palace he never had a beautiful life like him, and enjoying his life u all incest god having sex with each other stop comparing benchud

    • babaramdev says

      Areh bosdeh ke, madarchud saale, tumhara cast ka hai tuh sahi hai, if not other caste are false, saale u people are all myth and stories, seek mahabharat apni bhabhi ko langha karreh drupadi, see krishna playing with all gopies in water full sex.. and kama is filled, and for your brahma who married saraswati is the daughter of Sun and Sun god is brahma son, it that case she is her grand daughter see this incest relation, tum logho ka jaat meih sirf sex hai aur bhawan bolteh 10 hand rakh kar 10 head rakhar.

      Chillam saale

    • babaramdev says

      Chillar badkau, Ram sirf ek kahani hai, even ur own country people doubted about ram sethu, pehle khud ka saaf kar, ram kathe Ravan kathe.. Ram Kaha se aaya reh tuh dekha yah tera baap dekha

      • Raj Ganesh says

        You basically don’t believe in good and values. And there lies the conflict. Because the people who believe in Sri Ram also respect him for what he represents and stands for – VALUES. This values separate humans from demons like you.The Muslims here in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh were all converted from Hindu. Do you want to know how they were converted? by force, by threatening and killing and by raping innocent women. Yeah some Muslims are just product of these rape victims. The language that you used confirms that you were a born from a rape victim(your forefathers and mothers if you have any). To understand Vedas , Purana and our gods, you need to have blessings from god and I think that you don’t. I don’t have to explain and answer the questions you asked because I know that no matter what , you will remain the same – abusive, aggressive and terrorizing piece of shit.
        You people basically don’t believe in peace, harmony and progress . What all you believe is to oppress, suppress and terrorist. If you don’t like what we believe then why did’nt you go to Pakistan when it was formed. why did you ppl choose to stay back with us? We know how in the name of halal you torcher and kill animals.

        • Mac says

          Judaism is the main stream faith, who worships the only Living God of the patriarchs and matriarchs of the royal blood line from Adam to Jesus, 77 geneerations. Christianity is the fulfillment of judaism thru the coming of Messaiah. Rest is all paganism. Halal cut takes 2/3 seconds to stop the brain. It is clinically dead and the body drains the blood slowly. Whereas Punjabis kill by way of Jhatka wherein the body goes into shock and the life is trapped in the body for a good while. Its the brutalest of all kinds of killing. For pleasing the local demons vedic rituals includes ashwamedha, balamedha, purushamedha, sati pratha and other animal sacrifice rites. Also, devadashi pratha means temple prostitution. Vedas are teachings of the fallen angels. Madai’s grandson found an inscription (teachings of fallen angels, nephilims and giants). He copied it and never told his father, brothers of Noah because he feared them. This went on studying their teachings and passed it on from generation to generations amongst Medes people. All north India is Medes people. Iran, southern Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan are all Medes people. Madai didnt liked his portion of allotted land by his father Japheth (means extended boundry), youngest son of Noah. His descendents called him Jyapeti or Prajapati (Chief of their race). Madai’s portion was towards black sea. He requested his uncle Shem to allow him to live in his allotted land. Shem allowed him and Elam (means eternity), eldest son of Shem welcomed him to stay in his allotted land. Indians are a mixture of Elamites and Medes people. This is recorded in the Book of Jubilee, which is one of the books the Bible references. Peleg (means division) was born, Noah divided the earth in three portions for his 3 sons viz. Shem, Ham and Japheth. Also, the same year, King Nimrod, son of Cush, son of Ham, son of Noah was building tower of babylon and God divided the tongue of the people. That is why it is called tower of babel (confusion) and people spread out all over the world. Babylon is present day Ur, Najaf and Fallujah, the sunni triangle in Iraq. Abraham lived in Ur of Chaldeans as a kid. Then moved to Haran, northern Turkey from there to Canaan, which is Israel by God’s command. Ram-sin was the ancestor of King Darius I, the great. Abraham lived way before that who also fought and defeated King of Elam, Chedarlaomer in the valley of 5 cities God destroyed later on, which is the dead sea of today. It is called dead sea because it was a valley wherein God destroyed 5 cities including Soddom and Gommorah by raining burning sulphur and brimstones. It is covered with over 60 feet of those minerals. You cant drown in the dead sea water, the water is so thick. Jude 1:6 And the angels (fallen angels/nephilims) who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

          8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings.

          • TP Top says

            The ancient aliens theory is more believable than this. I just realized that only you are peddling this pseudo-theory everywhere including TOI. There is no other reference anywhere. You should see a doctor amigo.

  2. lalit says

    Why do we indian aryans and hindus have only two heroes to emulate. K rishna and Ram are the two characters that we praise and depending on our beliefs , we pray to them seeing them as god or if we strictly follow the vedas we believe them to be ideal vedic followers. This article says that Ram existed somewhere between 1000000-8000000 years ago. We can confidently say that Krishna lived and ruled about 5400 years back. Now it is a long period between these two dignitories era. Were there not any other kings or great rishies in between this period who were of the same quality , had the same character , who perfectly followed the vedas, and would have been ideal characters to emulate by all the human race , and specificaly Indians. Why do we have only Ram and Krishna. Yes we can name rishies but what about great people who would have lived in a family , HAD SOME BUSINESS, MAY BE WERE FARMERS OR GREAT WARRIORS , and pursued the vedic path and got samadhi. It is said that it was during and after the Mahabharta that we started sinking in illusion and darkness. That means by and large before that people were living a vedic life.
    That also raise a query , are we aware about the history of India and that world after Ram and before Krishna.
    We need more ideals , both male and female.

    • आर्यव्रतस्थ says

      There have been but the only thing is that most people are not aware of them..as there have been no legends of superhero actions and feats that they achieved.. i.e they did not have super human characteristics.. maybe that is why they have been referred to avatars and as per the puranas and there were 7 before them !! (consider the timelines then and the antiquity of veda as puranas hold veda supreme)
      but in comparitivley shy timeles there were examples of emulatable figures to quote a few
      females : Gargi,Lalleshwari
      male : Yagnyavalk,adi shankar,madhavacharya

      and at the end that is what is called Kali Yug, the age of ignorance and Darkness this lack of knowledge is intended and will only get worse if good people dont care..

      • आर्यव्रतस्थ says

        and if there were no likes of them its because people stopped following the Veda.. eveolved souls dont happen they are invoked by doing severe pennace as per Vedic rituals, once successful then only these souls descend on the earth.These day children are born mostly out of a mistake or just as a daily ritual or a duty of a married life.. there is no piousness left in the process its just procreation whereas it used to be a yagnya in vedic times (ie. bearing a child)

    • says

      Nobody can stand against Ram & krishna. Because a common man could not do such works as Rama & krishna did. They are extra ordinary. In this era we are quarreling for food, money and property with our brother, sister, father and neighbors. But Rama has give up everything for his brother. The character of Lord Rama is full of all the good qualities which we can not count. We worship them as our god.

      • Arya says

        @Akhilesh singh gaur
        Brother, of course they are our role models. But we can always become like them by following them in true sense and not by worshipping their idols. We need to be the warriors like Ram and Krishna who were unbeatable in the battlefield. If we would actually follow Ram and Krishna, no invader could ever conquer us. So time has come to discover Ram and Krishna from within and worship One Eeshvar.

      • Use ur brain do not become dog to bark says

        I am too excited brother because there is no allah , islam , muslman on earth.
        They are actually converted forcefully .

  3. Ajay Bhadrike says

    Please read Vaastava Ramayana By Dr. Padmakar Vishnu Vartak. MBBS
    you will find all details of Ramayana
    the book is in Marathi..
    i dont know whether english/hindi version is available

  4. Shantanu Khedkar says

    Manse raavan Jo nikale….raam uske Man main hain……Raam hi to Karuna main shanti me raam hain….Raam basn bahkato kain nahi Shatru ki bhi Chintan main hain….Raam tere man main hain…….
    Manse raavan Jo nikale….raam uske Man main …hain….Swades…….The people…

    • Raj Ganesh says

      Ram is not just a national hero. He is a role model and to emulate and follow foot steps of RAM makes one’s life complete and fruitful.
      There is nothing wrong even for non believers to idolize and follow him for what he stands for – VALUES. These values makes us humans. These values bring balance in society and remove violence and hatred. These values bring prosperity and peace to oneself and to society.
      Praise RAM. Follow RAM. RAM is truth. RAM is the path, way and destiny. Sing his name, praise him, think of him in your free time. Sri Ram Jai Ram Jai Jai Ram… Sri Ram Jai Ram Jai Jai Ram… Sri Ram Jai Ram Jai Jai RAM…

      • krishnarao says

        Rama was not a God at all. He was a just a man. To believe in gods, godmen, supermen, prophets, son of gods, x-men, flying goblins, and other nonsense is never going to get you to God. Stop putting this crap between you and God. We just need God and that is it. No need to put all this other garbage between us and God. Anyone can be a Rishi and connect with directly with God. We can download the information directly from God. that is the essence of our Dharmic Tradition. To get everyone to be independent so we can live in a society as interdependent family of one. Let us all be our own Rishis.

        • Dr.K.Amritha says

          Gud one sir……real gud one……..but I hav only one question which makes me sometimes feel embarassed of myself being called as a Hindu…….that is…….Y DID WE HINDUS CREATE CASTE SYSTEM…..it completely crippled our society,the ill-effects of which we are suffering through,till this date in the name of prejudice,partiality,untouchability,discrimination and various other social evils????

          • says

            1. Hindus did not create Caste system. Vedas have no mention of caste system at all. Refer to our articles in Caste section.

            2. Caste is a social system prevalent in all communities of South Asia. It is a milder form of slavery and racism. But being milder, it is also more difficult to tackle at times. It affects all societies here – Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, etc. In fact it is most severe among Muslims and Christians.

            3. Regardless of all this, we must unite to destroy this evil from root. We hope you are with us on this.

          • Arun says

            As I mentioned elsewhere here the word caste is derived from Portuguese, Casta http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casta . Portuguese permanently socially classified people in South America based on their racial combination (European, Native American, Africa). They projected their Casta onto Indian society, Hindu society. But Varna which is Hinduism is non-hereditary and jati/community which is generic throughout India is a healthy part of diversity. The problem is inherited class status which is a world wide problem. There is nothing wrong with communities, and there is nothing wrong with individual merited Varna. The issue is inherited and permanent social status, and since that was not a part of Sanatana Dharma in the first place Hindus are not bound to it.

          • Arun says

            You have to be aware that what people started to do is not the same as what Sanatana Dharma actually taught. In short there is no “Hindu” caste system. There is no untouchability in the Hindu religion either. Various Hindu sub- Communities it has been acknowledged by even Western scholars to have moved up and down social class. It was not as rigid even by the time the British arrived. The British tried to classify communities into one Varna or another, but many communities did not know where they fit into Varna. Or the British placed them into what Varna they thought they fit in. You actually have legal petitions during the British Raj to change the status of a community when they thought they were perhaps miscategorized. But even this movement of whole sub communities into one Varna or another is not Hinduism. Hinduism aka Sanatana Dharma only speaks of individual Varna based on the skills and occupation one develops and takes up. Furthermore everyone is unskilled, Shudra, even those who are now Brahmins, at the start before you develop yourself. In addition, these Varna are descriptive only categorizing jobs into four sections. You see the same elsewhere – other places speak of white collar jobs or blue collar jobs, and religious work as separate category. It is not unusual to categorize jobs. Sanatana Dharma may have been the first to categorize jobs in four sections but that does not mean, Sanatana Dharma thought one profession was less necessary than another. All jobs in all Varnas were important for the functioning of society. The Shudra or blue collar worker is vital for society, for every society. Each has an important place for society in order to function and be healthy.

      • Radjin says

  5. Parikshit says

    most of the questions posed by the author can easily be answered by google…now it is upto the author to research on the background of those answers. This a very interesting article though.

  6. आर्यव्रतस्थ says

    @Parikshit you are right but what is the prefix Ram there at so may places and not any other word i.e word which referes to history.

    • Parikshit says

      I am a very strong believer in Hinduism…but to me, Ramah,ramadan,ramallah,ramsgate just sound like an innocent coincidence, as after all, all languages are limited, therefore in the history of humanity, ever since languages came to existence, till now, it doesn’t take painful thinking to come to a conclusion that this particular combination of letters and syllables will not be too hard to find in any language(or religion) since the word ‘Ram’ has only 3 letters( in English) and 2 syllables.
      So i believe that the argument of, why the prefix ‘ram’ is used all over the world, is weak and therefore would not convince a skeptic.

  7. says

    Follow the path of the ancient, the language of the ancient, the rituals of the ancient and the religion of the ancient. The key to the ultimate knowledge and knowing the supreme being that awarded the ancient people with high intelectual and greatness. Trust the books as guidance and anybody deviated from the book surely will suffer the eternity in hell.

  8. RockeR says

    The teachings of Lord Rama were practical at that time as well as now.
    Everyone regardless of the thing that he’s a Hindu, Muslim or else should know that Ram is of everyone.. not just Hindus.
    Ram represents wisdom, dignity, loyalty etc He represents our heritage, our culture.
    Those who just for the sake of their benefit deny his existence(poor fellows :( ) are needed to be taught by us.
    even if they don’t understand they should be sent to the places which they like(like bukhari should be sent to pakistan :p)

      • Indian Agnostic says

        Miya Islam

        gaur pharmayein ki raam pehle ek Raaja the or baad mein ek husband…wo muslim badshahon ya rasoolon’ ki manind bhatke nahi hue the.

        ek taraf aapke rassol jo ki apni hi bahu ko humbistar karne se baaj nahi aaye ..jab unke saathiyon ne unse pooche ki ye ghatiya harkat ke kya maani hain? ..to Allah ka sahara le kar keh diya ki ye nikaah to Allah ne klaazi bankar karaaya hai..isme mera kya kasoor?

        ab doosri taraf Ram hain’ ..jo ki apni wife ko dhoondne mein samundar ki gehraiyon ko maat deke unhe waapas le aaye, aur unke saath waapas rehne lage ..Lekin jab unki praja ne ye kahaa ki agar desh ka raaja apni wife ko itne dino paraayi jagah rehne ke baad waapas sweekar kare to issey ek galat example set hoga …aur ye bolne waala shaksh aapke jaisa hi ek mamooli dhobi tha

        Baat ki gehrayi ko samajhte hue Rama ko usi wife ka saath chhodna padaa jise paane ke liye unhe samundar ko maat deni padi thi ….itna to dhobi ka gadha bhi jaan lega ki agar Raam ko apni wife se pyaar nahi hota to itni mashaaqat karne ki zaroorat hi nahi thi

        • tauqeer says

          “Indra took the form of Gautama to seduce Ahalya, saying to her, ‘I am in
          the power of Kama. Give me a kiss and so forth.’ But as she was worshipping
          the gods she told him that he had chosen an inappropriate time. He said,
          ‘Enough of this talk of what is done and what is not done. You should obey
          your husband, especially in the matters of sex. Give me an embrace and so
          forth.’ Then he embraced her and had his pleasure of her, but Gautama knew
          what had happened by his powers of meditation, and he hurried home and
          cursed Indra, saying, ‘Since you have acted in this way for the sake of the
          yoni (female-sexual-organ/vagina), let there be a thousand of them on your
          body, and let your linga fall.’ Then Gautama went to do tapas, and Indra,
          full of shame, stood in the water for a long time, praising Devi in her
          aspect of Indraksi ['Eyes of Indra']. When she offered him a boon he asked
          to have his deformity cured, but she said, ‘I cannot destroy the evil born
          of a sage’s curse, but I can do something so that people will not notice it:
          you will have a thousand eyes in the middle of the yonis (vaginas), and you
          will have the testicles of a ram.” — Padma Purana 1:56:15-53.
          AB IS KE GAHRAEE KO SAMJHAEYE

          • Indian Agnostic says

            @tauqeer mian

            first of all that was a laugh riot ..seriously …couldn’t help laughing

            I wish the prophet was given the same reward for his misadventures …(even if we discount 4 legal wives, he would have some 14,000 yonis all over his body ..ROFL ..and 28,000 LMAO )

            But unfortunately ..Quran is not a book of Justice ..It’s a book of illegal sanctions :( ..the prophet can sleep with maria the copt by lying to his wife and there’s no punishment for this act

            Strangely , the puranas though filled with these lustful escapades, do carry a sense of justice

            huzoor aap is baat par gaur pharmaiye ;)

          • tauqeer says

            See this justice
            Perhaps the most horrible effect of fall of Buddhism in ancient India, which is haunting us even today, is the start of devadasi system. The system of votive offering of girls to the deities in Brahmanic temples is a system found in all parts of India, but was more prevalent in the south. In some parts of Maharashtra and Karnataka it is still prevalent and has become a source of exploitation of lower castes. Though they had a glorious past, these girls are now a days degraded to the status of cheap prostitutes. The saying in Marathi goes, “Devadasi devachi bayako sarya gavachi”, meaning that she is servant of god but wife of the whole town. This is the lot of such a woman. She has to remain unmarried, and maintain herself by ceremonial begging, a system called “jogava” in Marathi, to get both ends meet. With “chal” (a string of small bells) in her feet, she carries the “jag” (a metal mask of god) in a “pardi” (a basket) on her head and begs whole life, or ends up in a brothel.
            The term devadasi is a Sanskrit term denoting female servant of deity, but they are known by different names in different areas. Jogan Shankar gives the names by which they are known in various parts, such as Maharis in Kerala, Natis an Assam, Muralis in Maharashtra, Basavis in Karnataka State. [p.16] Though the name ‘devadasi’ is popular, in Goa they use the term `Bhavanis’. `Kudikar’ on the West-Cost `Bhogam-Vandhi’ or `Jogin’ in Andhra Pradesh; Thevardiyar’ in Tamil Nadu; `Murali’, ‘Jogateen’ and ‘Aradhini’ in Maharashtra. In Karnataka, old devadasis are called as `Jogati’ and young devadasis as `Basavi’. The term `Basavi’ refers to feminine form of `Basava’ a bull which roams the village at will without any restriction. Hence `Basavi’ alludes to the foot loose position of the woman. [Jogan Shankar: 1990: 157]

          • tauqeer says

            Dear Indian Agnostic
            Carry on laughing
            After the death of his wife Sati, Lord Shiva was roaming around in the woods of Daruvana in the remembrance of his loss. It is believed that Lord Shiva was naked and wives of the sages who lived in the same forest saw him. The wives wanted to unite with Lord Shiva as they were aroused seeing him naked. The sages became jealous of Lord Shiva and thus cursed his linga because of which it had fallen down. As soon as the linga touched the ground its size grew and it looked like an unblemished feature. The length of the linga kept increasing eventually lord Vishnu and Brahma saw it when it has crossed the level of the clouds. They wanted to know what exact happen. Atlast Lord Vishnu turned into a pig and dived into an ocean and reaches the bottom of the linga. Lord Brahma became a Swan and reached its top. On returning back Lord Vishu accepted that he couldn’t find the base but Lord Vishu lied that he had reached to the peak. At the same time Lord Shiva came and appreciated Lord Vishu’s honesty and told them that since it was his linga it couldn’t be measured. On the request of Lord Vishu, Lord Shiva left behind a fraction of the linga in its fire form on the hill in Arunachala

          • tauqeer says

            Dear Indian Agnostic
            More bout of laughter for you
            When Brahma was creating the universe, He made a female deity known as Shatarupa (one with a hundred beautiful forms). Brahma became immediately infatuated with Her. Shatarupa moved in various directions to avoid the gaze of Brahmā. But wherever She went, Brahma developed a head. Thus, Brahma developed five heads, one on each side and one above the others. In order to control Brahma, Shiva cut off one of the heads. Also, Shiva felt that Shatarupa was Brahmā’s daughter, having been created by Him. Therefore, Shiva determined, it was wrong for Brahmā to become obsessed with Her. He directed that there be no proper worship on earth for the “unholy” Brahmā
            ” Brahma is one of the 3 main gods – Trimurti – of the Hindu pantheon. He is the creator of the universe. Sarasvati, who became the wife of her own father, was the daughter of Brahma. There are 2 stories about her genesis in the `Saraswati Purana’. One is that Brahma created his beautiful daughter Saraswati direct from his `vital strength’ or seminal fluid. The other is that Brahma used to collect his semen in a pot whenever he masturbated fixing his carnal eyes on the celestial beauty Urvasi. Brahma’s semen in the pot gave birth to the sage Agastya, and Agastya in turn gave birth to Saraswati. Thus, Saraswati had no mother.

          • tauqeer says

            Dear Indian Agnostic
            Laugh dear laugh- laugh laugh laugh,do justice and laugh

            daughter or grand-daughter of Brahma is the Hindu goddess of learning. When Brahma saw the beauty of Saraswati he became amorous. To escape from her father’s passionate approach Saraswati ran to the lands in all four directions, but she could not escape from her father. She succumbed to Brahma’s wish. Brahma and his daughter Saraswati lived as husband and wife indulging in incest for 100 years. They had a son Swayambhumaru and a daughter Satarupa. THrough the incest of Brahma’s son and daughter Brahma got two grandsons and two grand-daughters.”
            [ Kovoor, p.76 ]

          • tauqeer says

            Dear Indian Agnostic
            join laughing club and- laugh laugh laugh
            , Krishna had 16,008 wives and he begot 10 sons and 1 daughter with each of his wives. So he had 16,080 sons and the same number of daughters as his wive

          • Vik says

            @tauqeer

            You cannot even do arithmetic properly, this is what you said:

            “Krishna had 16,008 wives and he begot 10 sons and 1 daughter with each of his wives. So he had 16,080 sons and the same number of daughters as his wive”

            So 16008 times 10 = 16080??????????

            So this is your math?? Looks liike this is the mathematics that madarsa school educates idiots like you.

            Our school taught us that 16008 times 10 = 160080

            Anyways, do you have any proof from MahaBharat to support your stupid claims of Shri Krishna having 16008 wives?????

          • आर्यव्रतस्थ says

            @tauqeer : Dear brother seems that you are out of logic now. it has been mentioned a zillion times that these stories of puranas are man made. Shiva is not some Human being who will Have a linga Shiv is a quality of that one almighty which means auspicious and you have been told similarly that no one here takes these stories as a part of religion
            Instead of defending Allegation against Islam you are trying tooth and nail to find avenues to debase Vedas by using some other Sources which are not even relevant.
            You are Following the Logic if “A” is wrong that Means “B” is right which in inturn proves “C” is also wrong and then you celebrate ( For your knowledge A is Non-vedic Literature(denounced by Real Hindus),B is ISLAM, C is Veda and its corollaries)
            So grow up, and if you are tired take some rest revive to the actual Debate topic and come back.. one you are fully satisfied on the authority of veda and the irrelevance of the quran,then come back to your Vedic dharma.

          • ARYA XYZ says

            @ Taqueer,

            Arya people don’t support the gossip stories and you will be wise if you don’t waste your time to search for such gossips and put here.

            Instead of laughing at others why don’t you think of your own house. See the character of the messenger sent by Allah. Fumble in the books for his true stories.

            दूसरे लोगोंके घरमें झाँकनेकी बजाय अपने घरमें लगी आगको बुजानेकी कोशिष करोगे तो अच्छा होगा |

            धन्यवाद

          • Arya says

            Mian Tauqeer
            You really have good knowledge of Puran but of no use here as we dont follow Puran. However you would like to agree to 10 points given below, which will make sure that you are a human and are worth considering for intellectual debates and are not a terrorist like Babur, Aurangjeb, Zakir Naik, Osama, and Kasab.

            a. It is not necessary that all non-Muslims, regardless of their good deeds, will burn in Hell forever.

            b. It is not necessary that a criminal would go to Heaven simply because he surrenders to Quran and Islam and says a ‘sorry’!. So all those terrorists who kill, rape or loot in name of Islam would go to Hell and should be openly condemned by Muslims regardless of their religion. Allah will not forgive rapists, killlers, and looters at any cost.

            c. A woman is not bereft of intelligence or half-intelligent compared to men as claimed in several verses of Quran/ Hadiths. Allah allows women the same social, legal and political opportunities in life that He endows to men. (Refer entire series on Women in Islam )

            d. The concept of Jazia tax on non-Muslims is disgusting. Social, political and criminal regulations should be same for everyone regardless of religion.

            e. The English translations of Quran by likes of Yusuf Ali, Pickthall, Dawood; Tafseers of Sahih International, Jalalyn; Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim as published by Islamic publishers and websites suffer from discrepancies and DO NOT correctly represent Islam.

            Because these are the only translations which are used for questioning Islam. The Muslim debaters would refuse to admit that these translations are wrong (because Islam forbids them to condemn other Muslims) but yet try to allege that anti-Islamic material is used to demean Islam!

            The fact is that ONLY Islamic texts published by Islamic publishers is used to question Islam, be it by Agniveer or by Faith Freedom or by Islam Watch etc. So if there is anything objectionable in sources cited by those questioning Islam, the ‘experts’ should clearly state that they reject the authenticity of the sources even if it is an Islamic publication.

            f. The Sahih (True) Hadiths (sayings of Muhammad) which talk of rape of war victims, or killing children and other disgusting things (refer Zakir Naik claims Islam – The ONLY Practical Religion of World! and Practical Islam – Science of Hygiene ) are wrong and NOT part of Islam.

            g. A Muslim who could not find Islam addressing his questions and converts to another religion does not require to be killed for apostasy as per Islamic laws, even if he propagates his new religion. Those who KILL apostates or justify their killing in Islamic state are greatest criminals. (Refer Zakir Naik – the mentor of terrorists)

            h. All those Muslim rulers like Babur who admit in their own biography of indulging into pedophilia, homosexuality, cutting thousands of head, narcotics and keeping harem of women are not actually Muslims but disgrace in name of Islam. (Refer Babri Masjid demolition – Symbol of Hindu-Muslim unity )

            i. All those clerics, organizations and countries that call for constant war against non-Muslims are against Islam and criminals. For example refer to following fatwa issued from Saudi Arabia:

            Fatwa_It is Obligatory for Non-Muslims to Accept ISLAM

            j. Non-Muslims should have the same rights to propagate their beliefs in Islamic countries, (so far the beliefs are not criminal, immoral and violent) as Muslims have the right to propagate Islam in non-Islamic countries. But if Muslims believe that it is against Islam to allow preaching of any other religion in Islamic countries, then they should also stop propagating Islam in other countries.

            For further reading, refer http://agniveer.com/2623/islam-will-not-be-a-threat-if/#comment-8477

            I hope you agree to these points so that we can continue with the discussion.

          • Indian Agnostic says

            @Tauqeer

            [OTHERS PLEASE DONT READ THIS >>THIS IS AN UNAUTHENTIC JOKE FOR A JOKE SUBTHREAD BETWEEN ME AND TAUQEER BRO >>YOU ARE ADVISED NOT TO READ HIS OR MY COMMENTS ON THIS SUB TOPIC PLEASE]

            Since it’s all about jokes and not authentic sources ..here’s my final contribution to give you as much laughter as you have given me ..this is the pinnacle of jocular perversion of text

            This is from a book called “Kanz Al Umal” (The Treasure of the Workers), in the chapter of “The issues of women”, authored by Ali Ibn Husam Aldin, commonly known as Al-Mutaki Al-Hindi. He based his book on the hadiths and sayings listed in “Al-Jami Al-Saghir,” written by Jalal ul-Din Al-Suyuti.

            Narrated by Ibn Abbas:

            “I (Muhammad) put on her my shirt that she may wear the clothes of heaven, and I SLEPT with her in her coffin (grave) that I may lessen the pressure of the grave. She was the best of Allah’s creatures to me after Abu Talib”… The prophet was referring to Fatima , the mother of Ali.

            The Arabic scholar Demetrius explains : “The Arabic word used here for “slept” is “Id’tajat,” and literally means “lay down” with her. It is often used to mean, “lay down to have sex.” Muhammad is understood as saying that because he slept with her she has become like a wife to him so she will be considered like a “mother of the believers.” This will supposedly prevent her from being tormented in the grave, since Muslims believed that as people wait for the Judgment Day they will be tormented in the grave. “Reduce the pressure” here means that the torment won’t be as much because she is now a “mother of the believers” after Muhammad slept with her and “consummated” the union.”

            LOLz ..SLEPT WITH A DEAD WOMAN >>NOTHING BEATS THAT :))

            LET ME MAKE IT CLEAR THAT THIS IS JUST FOR ADULT ENTERTAINMENT …I DON”T BELIEVE IN PURANAS AND NON SAHIH HADITS .

            TAUQEER BRO, ON A SERIOUS THOUGHT:
            I think @Aryavratast and @Arya XYZ have made a valid call …we can carry on with our light hearted banter but MOST IMPORTANT for you is to respond here first http://agniveer.com/2623/islam-will-not-be-a-threat-if/#comment-8477

            i am sure you’ll make humanity proud

          • Kaffir786 says

            TAUQEER BROTHER CAUGHT YOU WITH YOUR TAKIA there is no such thing as saraswati puran it is lie which is propagated in pakistani blogs you just copy pasted from there.

          • says

            Khe khe khe khe :)

            Kafir ( Rehna hameesha Kafir aur jalna hameesha Nargh main)
            KIa kisee pakistani nay tumhare thook laga k marii thee ?

            Indian agnostic, Lousi, Randi k bachay, , Haraam khoor , tujhe koi proof nahi mila ? Chinnal ka doodh pi pi k tu bara hua hai Kanjar k bachay…………….

            May ab tak tere idols k baray may kuch nahi keh raha to tu bhe yeh personal heatrat apnay tak he rakh to acha hai……….. warna Lausi to mujhe janta nahi hai abhee :)

          • Tanveer says

            Brother Indian Agnostic, atleast have the courtesy to keep a “REPLY” tab below the post. Please tell agniveer to keep a reply tab below every post. There are many people who run away after putting a question and there is no reply tab below the post. I always find a “REPLY” tab below every post of mine but for arya,indian agnoistics,proud to be a kafir etc there is no reply tab. Please dont try to run away. Anyways dont show me video post. Even I can give you hundreds of video post.

            Pleae translate the following. “Soma could not bear being drawn for women; making the ghee a bolt they beat it, they drew it when it had lost its power; therefore women are powerless, have no inheritance, and speak more humbly than even a bad man ”

            Yajur Vedsa 2/3/7 A horse, a bull, a ram, a goat, these are the sacrificial fee; for manliness. With this he should sacrifice who is being practised against; if these deities eat his food, men eat his also.

          • Indian Agnostic says

            Brother Tanveer

            I am just a member like you ..i can’t change this behavior :(

            as far as my or arya or proud to be kafir’s posts are concerned ..i think it’s just coincidence ..or may be because we chat a lot :)

            Brother Tanveer ..you have somehow missed this article i guess http://agniveer.com/2164/2623/islam-will-not-be-a-threat-if/

            first things first bro ..let’s all be on the side of humanity first ..and then we can discuss scriptures to our intellect’s satisfaction

            I am hoping that you would be the first one to stand against anti-india and anti-human people

          • Tanveer says

            Every right minded people would be against anti nationals and anti national activities. All right minded people would be against lies and against those who spread hatred and creates suspicion in minds of the people. I am a true Indian and for me all those who indulge in spreading hatred and trying to create discord and indulge in rioting and trigerring blasts are anti nationals and I hope you as an Indian agree with my view point.

          • krishnarao says

            The story of Krishna and the 16,000 wives. Here is what happened. Krishna fought a war with an evil king. That king had over 16,000 female slaves. Krishna freed all of those women slaves from the grips of the king. The women said we will be shamed for being slaves and no one will marry us. Krishna said if anyone asks, tell them I am you husband. For what is better than having the great Krishna as a husband for these women. Their reputation was saved by Krishna.

      • stormcrusher says

        haaha I really feel pity on your thoughts..
        Its your perception..
        Ram was a King.. he has to satisfy his whole territory not just himself.

      • Vineet Kumar says

        Pachvi Paas Ram ko samajhne chale Ramayan Says “Ram Atarka Buddhi Mann Vani ” Aaap Ram ko Buddhi,Mann,Vani se nahi samajh sakte….Abhi bhi nahi samjhe aa ja mere paas achche se samjha dunga…

        • Mac says

          LOL! Idolatry is an abomination in the Living God’s eye and it brings destruction, shame and darkness both inside and outside. Praise, worship and glory belong to the Living God alone. Exodus 20:3-6 “You shall have no other gods before Me. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. Pslam 115:4-8 “Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: they have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throats. They that make them, are like unto them; so is everyone that trust in them”. Jeremiah 10:5 Their gods are like
          helpless scarecrows in a cucumber field!
          They cannot speak,
          and they need to be carried because they cannot walk.
          Do not be afraid of such gods,
          for they can neither harm you nor do you any good. 1 Corinthians 10:18-20 Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? Do I mean that a sacrifice offered to an Idol is anything, or that an Idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of Pagans are offered to demons not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. Colossians 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven. And they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger. Leviticus 19:4 Do not turn to idols or make for yourselves any gods of cast metal: I am the Lord your God. Isaiah 45:20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, you survivors of the nations! They have no knowledge who carry about their wooden idols, and keep on praying to a god that cannot save. Judges 10:14 Go and cry out to the gods whom you have chosen; let them save you in the time of your distress. Hosea 11:2 The more they were called, the more they went away; they kept sacrificing to the Baals and burning offerings to idols. Romans 1:23 And exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. 1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and presumption is as iniquity and idolatry. Jeremiah 10:15 They are worthless, a work of delusion; at the time of their punishment they shall perish. Jeremiah 1:16 And I will declare my judgments against them, for all their evil in forsaking me. They have made offerings to other gods and worshiped the works of their own hands.
          Isaiah 46:7 They lift it to their shoulders, they carry it, they set it in its place, and it stands there; it cannot move from its place. If one cries to it, it does not answer or save him from his trouble. Jeremiah 32:35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. 1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality. Habakkuk 2:19 Woe to him who says to a wooden thing, Awake; to a silent stone, Arise! Can this teach? Behold, it is overlaid with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in it. Deuteronomy 27:15 “‘Cursed be the man who makes a carved or cast metal image, an abomination to the Lord, a thing made by the hands of a craftsman, and sets it up in secret.’ And all the people shall answer and say, ‘Amen.’

          Deuteronomy 7:26 And you shall not bring an abominable thing into your house and become devoted to destruction like it. You shall utterly detest and abhor it, for it is devoted to destruction. Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” 1 Corinthians 12:2 You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led. 1 Corinthians 8:4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” Zechariah 10:2 For the household gods (terafim means walking and talking idol/figurine) utter nonsense, and the diviners see lies; they tell false dreams and give empty consolation. Therefore the people wander like sheep; they are afflicted for lack of a shepherd. Isaiah 42:17 They are turned back and utterly put to shame, who trust in carved idols, who say to metal images, “You are our gods.”
          Romans 1:25 Because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator (God), who is blessed forever! Amen. Hosea 13:2 And now they sin more and more, and make for themselves metal images, idols skillfully made of their silver, all of them the work of craftsmen. It is said of them, “Those who offer human sacrifice kiss calves!” Jeremiah 51:47 “Therefore, behold, the days are coming when I will punish the images of Babylon (Ur, Najaf and Fallujah, Iraq, sunni triangle); her whole land shall be put to shame, and all her slain shall fall in the midst of her. Jeremiah 16:20 Can man make for himself gods? Such are not gods!” Jeremiah 10:11 Thus shall you say to them: “The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens.” Isaiah 57:13 When you cry out, let your collection of idols deliver you! The wind will carry them off, a breath will take them away. But he who takes refuge in Me shall possess the land and shall inherit my holy mountain. Isaiah 46:1 Bel bows down; Nebo stoops; their idols are on beasts and livestock; these things you carry are borne as burdens on weary beasts. Revelation 1:18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. Deuteronomy 32:39 “See now that I Myself am He! There is no god besides Me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of My hand. 1 Samuel 2:6 The LORD brings death and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and raises up. Isaiah 43:10 You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me no god was formed, nor will there be one after Me.

          • says

            I have always wondered what kind of fool can believe his sins against others can be forgiven by a third party. If I was fool enough to be unfaithful to my wife who but her could forgive me? Seriously, if your partner cheated on you and told you that Jesus had forgiven her would that make it all right?

            Christianity is a cop out to avoid personal responsibility. No wonder so many death row inmates become so devout.

            As for the symbol of the Cross, that is simple idolatry. What is the Cross but a graven image over the altar that Christians bow down to? Is it fair to expect the delusional to recognize the hypocrisy of that? Like the statues of the Virgin Mary and the Saints the Cross is a graven image. What do the Ten Commandments have to say about that?

            The key to all religion is guilt. That’s why the child abusers twist the minds of the young in Sunday School, preaching original sin and inevitable damnation. It would be kinder to just sodomize us and send us home with an unpolluted mind, but unless they teach us we are not worthy how can they sell us their cure?

            The fact is that Jesus died for perceived blasphemy. Our sins are our own and only those we have sinned against may forgive us, if we cannot forgive ourselves.
            Adam and Eve are characters in an ancient allegory that was originally Sumerian/Babylonian.
            Our “original” sin is that our physical instincts, desires, etc. are always in conflict with our spiritual purpose (to learn how to love).
            Fundamentalists & fringe cults ignore the symbolism in that Hebrew allegory (teaching story).
            One obvious symbol is ” the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” The eating of its fruit represents the beginning of the mixture of good and evil together in humanity. It is believed that before our consciousness, our awareness, of good and evil, the two were separate, and the potential for evil only existed outside of us. The “talking snake” represents a manifestation of evil that existed outside of us.

  9. abhijeet4288 says

    The essential tale of Rama has also spread across South East Asia, and evolved into unique renditions of the epic – incorporating local history, folktales, religious values as well as unique features from the languages and literary discourse. The Kakawin Ramayana of Java, Indonesia, the Ramakavaca of Bali, Hikayat Seri Rama of Malaysia, Maradia Lawana of the Philippines, Ramakien of Thailand (which calls him Phra Ram) are great works with many unique characteristics and differences in accounts and portrayals of the legend of Rama. The legends of Rama are witnessed in elaborate illustration at the Wat Phra Kaew temple in Bangkok. The national epic of Myanmar, Yama Zatdaw is essentially the Burmese Ramayana, where Rama is named Yama. In the Reamker of Cambodia, Rama is known as Preah Ream. In the Pra Lak Pra Lam of Laos, Buddha is regarded as an incarnation of Rama.

  10. Sandeep says

    Why Rama and Krishna can not be God ? They have demonstrated super human ability to live a honest, powerful, truthful life. Why we worship God? So, that we could get strength, purity, knowledge. That is why Ram, Krishna are worshiped so that there goodness come to us. Obviously we should follow their life and live as per their teaching, mere worship with tons of flower will not work. Any human who can live a truthful, honest, spiritual lofty life can be worshiped as God. We worship also Swami Dayand, Swami Vivekanand, Sant Gyaneshwar, Sant Tukaram, Sant Narshi Mehta. They have got equal status of God. They are real God of earth.

  11. Krishna Baalu says

    I saved this article when it was originally published on rediff in 2008. For the benefit of all Hindus and Ram lovers I re produce herebelow the article in ful. This was written by Dr Satyapal Singh The Commissioner of Police (the then??) (Nagpur)- I hope the author would not mind for posting here with a view to share this with all our Hindu friends and Ram Bhakts. Thanks!

    PROVING THE HISTORICITY OF RAM by Dr Satyapal Singh

    Since thousands of years, not just in India [ Images ] but also all over the world, one of the greatest men who influenced and touched the hearts of millions both common men and elite alike — with his strength of character is Ram. His time was that of great kings and world empires. This was the era when the whole world understood one language and speech, as mentioned in the holy book, the Bible (Genesis 11.1). Then neither was the world divided into Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews etc, nor broken up on the basis of modern day caste barriers. Then there were only two divisions in human society Arya and Un-Arya (asurs, rakshas). Those who were not strong of character and men of words were un-arya. All mankind had only one culture.

    Literary work

    The most authentic and original source of knowledge about Ram is the Valmiki Ramayana [ Images ]. This noble work of literature credits Valmiki as the earliest poet of the world. The story of Ram did not remain confined to the pages of Valmiki Ramayana, but it also finds a mention in various other scriptures of history and ancient literature. It is talked about in Muni Vyas’s Mahabharata [ Images ] at four places — Ramopakhayan, Aaranyak Parva, Drona [ Images ] Parva and Dashrath Kathanak; in Buddhist literature it finds mention in three Jatak parables, viz, Dashrath Jatak, Anamak Jatak and Dashrath Kathanak; in Jain literature many manuscripts were written on Ram, like Padam Charitra (Prakrit) by Vimal Suri; Padam Puran (Sanskrit) by Ravisen Acharya; Padam Charitra (Apbhransh) and Charitra Puran (Sanskrit) by Swambhu; and Uttar Puran (Sanskrit) by Gunbhadra. As per Jain tradition the original name of Ram was ‘Padam’.

    The story of Ram was also written in various other Indian regional languages.

    There are at least 11 versions of Ramayana in Hindi, eight in Marathi, 25 in Bangla, 12 in Tamil, five in Telugu and six in Oriya. Apart from these, more versions of the Ramayana have been written in Sanskrit, Gujarati, Malayalam, Kannada, Assamese, Urdu, Arabic, Persian, etc. The Hindi Ramcharitmanas authored by Tulsidas has achieved a very prominent place in northern India. More than 400 great poets and saints like Kalidas, Bhas, Bhatti, Praversen, Bhavbhuti, Kshemendra, Rajshekhar, Kumardas, Vishwanath, Somdev, Gunadutt, Narad, Lomesh, Guru Govind Singh, the Samarth Guru Ramdas, Maithili Sharan Gupt, Keshavdas and Saint Tukdoji etc, have written poems, prose and literature on Ram and other characters of the Ramayana.

    Even in other countries we can find versions of Ramayana, like the Tibetan Ramayana, Turkistan’s Khotani Ramayana, Indonesia’s Kakbin Ramayana, Java’s Seratram, Sairiram, Ramkeling, Patani Ramkatha; Indo-China’s Ramkerti (Ramkirti), Khamer Ramayana; Burma’s Ramyagan of Yuto; Thailand’s Ramkiyen etc all narrate the story of Ram in a picturesque way. Scholars also believe that Homer’s Illiad and the Dionysia of poet Nonus of Rome have surprising similarities with our Ramayana.

    In world literature, no other historical person has been narrated with so much devotion on such a grand, magnified and detailed scale by so many poets and authors of varied countries.

    Temples and terracotta

    All over the world, not just hundreds but thousands of temples of Ram, Lakshman, Sita, Hanuman [ Images ], etc are being constructed since time immemorial. The walls of the 9th century Shiv temple Parambanan (Parambhram) of Java and the 11th century Angkorwat Temple of Cambodia are pictorially engraved with the scenes of Ramayana and Mahabharata.

    Hundreds of terracotta based on the Ramayana have been found from Sirma, Haat, Nacharkheda of Hisar; Jind, and Santhai (Yamuna Nagar) of Haryana; Koshanbhi (Allahabad), Aahichatra (Bareilly), and Katinghar (Etah) of Uttar Pradesh [ Images ] and Bhadra (Shriganganagar) of Rajasthan [ Images ]. They depict the major events of Ram’s exile, mainly Ram, Sita and Lakshman’s Panchvati gaman; Maareech Mrugh (golden deer); the dialogue of Tirshira with Khar-Dushan; the execution of 14 demons by Ram; Sita-haran by Ravan; Sughreev sighting Sita throwing down her ornaments from Pushpak (Ravan’s plane); Sughreev welcoming Ram to his abode; Sughreev-Bali combat; Ram’s assassination of Bali; Hanuman burning Ashok Vatika; Trishira Rakshas’s killing; Indrajeet, the son of Ravan, going to war, etc. Some of the terracotta have the verses of Valmiki Ramayana written in the script of pre-Gupta age. They can be seen in the archaeological museum of Gurukul Jhajjar (Haryana). Apart from these, hundreds of terracotta can be seen in different museums of India as well as in the British Museum of London [ Images ]

    Kushan emperor Kanishka had an engraving of the wind-god Hanuman on his regime’s seal. Emperor Akbar had also similarly depicted Ram-Sita on one of his golden guineas. Scenes from Ramayana have been sketched in the Safdarjang Madarsa of Delhi [ Images ]. Central India’s Dhar and Ratlam principalities had engraved Hanuman on their seals. Brass guineas introduced by the Sant regime also had the etchings of Ram and his three brothers, as well as Sita and Hanuman.

    The biggest travesty of facts is that even after so many literary and archaeological evidence, Lord Ram is not universally accepted as a historical personality.

    The time of Ram

    According to ancient Indian chronology and Puranic tradition Ram was born in the 24th Treta Yuga (Great Age). Apart from the Valmiki Ramayana and other versions of Ram’s biography, there are four important references to Ram, Ravan, etc in ancient scriptures.

    1. Treta yuge chaturvinshe ravane tapseh shakshyat |Ram dashrtathi prapiye sagane shakyamiyeewan || (Vayu Puran 70.88)

    2. Sandho tu samanupraptre tretayaam dwaparisya cha |Ramo daasrathirbhutva bhavishami jagatpati || (Mahabharata 348.19)

    3. Chaturvinshe yuge chapi vishwamitra pure sare |Loke ram iti khyate tejsah bhaskaropam || (Harivansh 22.104)

    4. Chaturvinshe yuge vats tretayaam raghuvanshaje |Ramo naam bhavishyami chaturvhayu sanatane || (Bhramand Puran 2.2.36.30)

    On the basis of the given literary references and evidences it can be inferred that Ram, Ravan, Vishwamitra etc lived in the 24th Treta Yuga. According to the Mahabharata, Ram lived in the transition phase between Treta and Dwapar ages. It however does not mention the order of the Treta.

    It will help to know that Satyug, Treta, Dwapar and Kalyug have a continuous cycle, like the cycle of the months in a year or the days in a week. As Monday is followed by Tuesday and January is followed by February, Satyug is followed by Treta and this cycle continues endlessly. Or these, Kalyug has the shortest span of 4,32,000 years, Dwapar is double the years of Kalyug at 8,64,000 years, Treta is triple the years of Kalyug at 12,96,000 years and Satyug is four-times the years of Kalyug at 17,28,000 years. Thus one unit of four yugas is called Chaturyugi, having a total of 43,20,000 years.

    We are presently in the Kalyug of the 28th Chaturyugi and so far 5,108 years of Kalyug have lapsed. If we accept that Ram indeed lived during the last phase of the 24th Treta Yuga then it can be calculated that he lived 1,81,49,108 years ago. But if we accept that he lived in the Treta of the present 28th cycle of Chaturyugi then he lived 8,69,108 years ago.

    After so many years it’s impossible for any buildings, dwellings, statues, seals, coins, cloths, bones or weapons to exist. There also cannot be physical records or evidences of every person who walked this earth so long ago. Even if someone has passed away five generations ago without leaving his progeny behind, we have no natural or physical evidence to prove his life. Even if he had a house, without documentary evidence or word-of-mouth we cannot prove that it belonged to him. Even in modern times, the existence of the ruling presidents and prime ministers of today cannot be proved 1,000 years hence without any literary proof. Their story can be passed verbally from one generation to the next but no physical evidence of their existence will be available.

    In the last few years, some highly motivated computer-literate group of people have designed a software called ‘Planetarium Gold Software’ which is generally used by scientists to measure the distance and locations of planets from earth and to predict lunar and solar eclipses. The Valmiki Ramayana (Bal Kanda 18.8.9) mentions (the planetary positions vis-à-vis zodiac constellations) at the time of Lord Ram’s birth as ‘the ninth lunar day of the bright fortnight of Chaitra, asterism Punarvasu was in the ascendant and (as many as) five planets (viz, the Sun, Mars [ Images ], Saturn, Jupiter and Venus) happened to be exalted (appeared in the zodiacal signs of Mesa or Aries, Makara or Capricorn, Tula or Libra, Karka or Cancer, and Mina or Pisces respectively) and Jupiter in conjunction with the Moon [ Images ] appeared in the zodiacal sign of Karka’.

    ‘Ram was 39 years old when he killed Ravana’

    The same details were entered in the Planetarium Gold software to determine the important dates in the life of Lord Ram vis-à-vis the present planetary positions and zodiac constellations and calculated that Ram was born on January 10, 5114 BC, which means to say 7,122 years ago. While they deserved all appreciation and thanks for this new approach, their ignorance of astronomical calculations and in the absence of any literary proof, their result cannot be relied upon. According to astronomy, the positions of zodiac constellations come back to their original place after a cycle of approximately 26,000 years.

    For this reason, the exact same planetary position repeats itself every 26,000 years. So, Ram could have been born in any of the repetitive cycles in planetary positions. Even if we believe Ram to be born in the Treta of the present 28th Chaturyugi, as mentioned earlier, the position of constellations have completed 33 cycles and if, according to literary evidence, we believe Ram to be born in the Treta of 24th Chaturyugi, then the position of the constellations have completed 698 cycles.

    The scientific interpretation of the photographs of the remains of Adam’s Bridge (Ram Setu) taken by NASA’s [ Images ] Gemini-11 spacecraft in 2002, reveals that this ancient bridge linking India to Sri Lanka [ Images ] was manmade, and it was dated to be at least 1.75 million years old. According to Valmiki Ramayana, it is true that Ram and his engineers constructed this bridge for transporting his army into Lanka. If we accept that it was indeed Ram who got this bridge constructed then he lived in the middle years of the 28th Treta, and not in the 24th, and neither in the transition between Treta and Dwapar of the 28th era (Chaturyugi). Even if we accept this, it doesn’t alter the calculations based on planetary positions of the constellations. Then the constellations would have completed 66 cycles before coming back to its original position.

    It is also not wrong to state that an email message was sent by NASA officials in July 2007 to N K Raghupati, chairman of the Setu Samudram Ship Canal Project, stating therein that the remains of the bridge do not appear to be connected to any human activity. Why NASA differed from its original stand is unknown. Even if Adam’s Bridge is a natural geological formation, it could have been beautifully used by Ram to construct a temporary bridge for his army to cross over to Sri Lanka. No scientific test has yet been carried out to measure the ascending or descending contours of Adam’s Bridge. Moreover, after millions of years since its construction, no human activity can be linked to this or any other structure.

    False propagation by foreign scholars

    Most foreign scholars and Indologists believe that Indians taught and learnt their lessons verbally, without the aid of any written material. Indians did not even know how to write. They were not inclined towards maintaining any historical records, nor did they have any notion of placement of events in its proper sequence in time. They believed that the Aryans came from abroad, defeated the original inhabitants of India, the Dravidians, and settled here. The Harappan civilisation was destroyed by invading Aryans. The human history they know is only 5,000 years old. The ancestor of man was an ape or a chimpanzee.

    In brief it can be stated that all the above assertions of foreign scholars are unscientific, illogical, untrue and pure false propaganda. It has been revealed across the world today that scholars like Max Muller, H H Wilson, A A MacDonell, Rudolph Roth, Albrecht Weber, Ralph T H Griffith, M Winternitz, Monier-Williams, all had the same basic objective which is expressed in Max Muller’s words which he wrote in a letter to his wife: ‘This edition of mine and the translation of the Veda will, hereafter, tell to a great extent on the fate of India. It is the root of their religion and to show them what the root is, I feel sure is the only way of uprooting all that has sprung from it during the last three thousand years.’ (Life and Letters of F Max Muller, Vol I, Chapter XV, Page 34).

    Similarly, Monier-Williams wrote in the preface of his Sanskrit-English dictionary: ‘I must draw attention to the fact that I am only the second occupant of the Boden Chair and that its founder Colonel Boden stated most explicitly in his will (dated August 15, 1811 AD) that the special object of his munificent bequest was to promote the translation of scriptures into English so as to enable his countrymen to proceed in the conversion of the natives of India to the Christian religion’. Prof Goltuster had revealed that Roy, Weber, Whitling, Fuhan, and other scholars were determined because of some mysterious reason to ruin the prime glory of India in any way possible.

    More recently, in July 2007, a book titled Invading the Sacred: An analysis of Hinduism studies in America edited by Krishna Ramaswamy, Antonio de Nicolas and Aditi Banerjee was released in Mumbai [ Images ]. The book states, ‘Unlike in India, the academic study of religion is an important undertaking for intellectuals in America and a few hundred scholars study Hinduism and other Indian religions. Many of them have continued to perpetuate myths and biases about Indian culture and religion through misinterpretation and mistranslations. These are in line with the colonial and missionary caricature of India.’ The book is the product of a multi-year research project that uncovered shoddy and biased scholarship driven by certain power cartels, its authors said.

    Let us also know the fact that McCaulay did not know even one Indian language but he commented on all Eastern wisdom, James Mill never visited India but he wrote on Indian history. None of the foreign Indologists like Max Muller, Winternitz and Griffith had any knowledge of Vedic grammar , astronomy, metre (chhand) etc but they all translated Vedas and assumed the status of authorities.

    As per Vedic time computation and tradition, the age of creation is 4.32 billion years, and the sankalp mantra ‘Om tatsat adhay bharamano dutya parardhey swetvarahakalpe saptmein vaivasvat manvantare astahvinsatitame kaliyuge kaliprathme charne _____ gatabde’. They have kept intact the history of the time of creation and the advent of man on earth till today. Man arrived on earth exactly 1,97,29,49,108 years ago (approximately two billion years ago). Some Vedic scholars also believe that man was created on earth only in the seventh manmantar of Vaivasvat Manu. The sun, planets, stars, earth, sea, vegetation, flora and fauna were created in the earlier six manmantars in a very scientific manner. If we accept this theory, then man was born about 12,05,33,108 years ago. At least this much is certain, that the history of mankind is indeed very long.

    Indians always knew the art of writing. The Rig Veda (10.71.4) says speech has two forms — one which can be heard (shravya) and one which can be seen (drishya). Script was in vogue since ancient times in India. Bhojpatra and tadpatra (papyrus) were abundantly available in nature before man walked the earth. Like paper, even these forms of recording scripts was not permanent. Manuscripts were copied onto new papyrus if they got damaged due to climatic conditions. How else would we find thousands of ancient manuscripts in India? How else would we remember the Vedas, epics, scriptures, and other astronomical subjects?

    Yes, there were definitely a few people who felt pride in memorising one or more of the Vedas. If we believe that at that point in time the intellect and memory of the people were very sharp and elephantine compared to the modern man, then this logic also goes against the evolutionary principles of Darwin. The truth is that Indians knew how to write — and wrote a lot! No other country in the world has such a rich and vast literary treasure. What other proof can be asked for to say that the Indians could write?

    Darwin’s unnatural and unscientific theory is now also being rejected by many scientists and scholars world-wide. Because of their religious faith some Western scholars who earlier believed that the age of the earth was approximately 6,000 years, now agree that the earth is aged between 3.96 and 4.3 billion years. If earth is so old then how can man inhabited it after such a gigantic time gap?

    American scholar Michael Cremo’s recent books Forbidden Archaeology and Devolution of Man based on scientific discoveries prove that the Darwin theory has hardly any truth and that man came on earth at least two billion years ago. Cremo and his co-author Richard Thompson have quoted a lot of archeological evidences which undoubtedly prove that scientists in the last 150 years have collected so many facts which disprove many fundamental theories in history, linguistics and science. Many scientific journals had also published these discoveries but the mental block created by the evolution theory of Darwin and the limit of 5,000 years of human history did not pay due attention to the new discoveries. These scientific discoveries and facts prove that the history of mankind is billions of years old.

    Ignorance in faith

    The foreign scholars and their Indian followers who have spread the mythological canard that Ram and Ramayana are historically untrue, figments of imagination and only a fable are no more responsible than some of our Indian poets and writers. The preachers and exponents of Ram Katha and the directors and actors of Ramlila have inadvertently and ignorantly further contributed to the doubts about the genuineness of Ram. Devoid of true faith and unaware of the true glory of God, we have turned Ram into God and God-incarnate.

    Like the fables of Panchtantra we have metamorphosed the erudite scholar of Vedas and a guru of grammar, Hanuman, into an ape; the architect of Ram Setu, Jambavan, into a bear; the famous doctor-surgeon Sushen and his colleagues Angad, Bali, etc into monkeys; the brave Jatayu who was the former king of Gridhkoot who fought Ravan in the sky after the abduction of Sita, into a vulture. The most shocking belief is that the most beautiful scholar lady Tara was married to the monkey Bali. Sita was believed to be born of the earth and ultimately returned to Mother Earth. Our imagination knew no bounds.

    Valmiki knew Ram to be a human, a noble man, the best of his era and in his time wrote Ramayana as both were contemporary. He has also shown Ram to possess human traits and emotions, just like any ordinary person. We, in our blind faith, have accentuated the question marks on the historicity of Ram and Ramayana by treating Ramayana like a fable and depicting its noble characters as birds and animals.

    Our foolish beliefs did not end here. We spin strange new stories which ultimately maligned the noble character of Ram. Ram never disowned Sita or exiled her to the forest in a pregnant state. Valmiki never wrote this. We got the Seer Shambook executed by Ram, calling him a shudra. Valmiki never mentioned this. No intellectual scholar or tapasvi could be a shudra, at least in Vedic times. But through interpolations and additions in the modern day Ramayana we have made Maryada Purshottam Ram into a person inflicting injuries and harassment on women and low-borns. Valmiki’s Ram was the bravest among the brave, the noblest among the noble, but not God.

    Analysis and conclusions

    1. Can our saints and seers, who have from birth till death spoke the truth, acted with truth and preached only the truth, become the liars today and their writings unbelievable and false, whereas the foreign scholars and their native modern followers are truthful? Were our ancient visionaries and authors like Rishi Valmiki, Muni Vyas, Kalidas, Bhas, Bhavbhooti, Ashvaghosh, Samarth Guru Ramdas, Guru Govind Singh, Swami Dayanand, Swami Vivekanand, the leading lights of Buddhist and Jain traditions, etc were liars, selfish and believed in the imaginary, whereas today’s professors and scholars of our colleges and universities, writing about history and culture are more learned, committed to truth and missionaries of humanism?

    2. Man first wrote true stories and history, and later learnt how to write fiction. India never had a tradition of writing about imaginary characters, as our country was never short of real-life heroes.

    3. Are our history, puranas, smritis and Upanishadic parables fables and fairy tales, and Western legends and mythologies all true?

    4. Has any community in the world ever celebrated the birth or death anniversaries of any fictitious person? If this is true, then how can the birth anniversary of Ram, Ram Navmi, be celebrated since thousands of years, year after year, in many countries of the world?

    5. Has any fictitious character been written about repeatedly even by 10 to 20 writers? The story of Ram has been told and retold since time immemorial by thousands of seers, poets, writers and authors in different languages and in different countries of the world.

    6. Even if by default we accept that Ram and Ramayana are the imagination of a poet, then at least we accept that the poet was real and lived on this earth, and was not imaginary. No one has ever doubted that Valmiki lived. His life has been chronicled in detail in Skand Puran, Bhavishya Puran and Adhyatma Ramayana. When Valmiki meets Ram for the first time, he says, as given in Valmiki Ramayana (7.96.19):

    Prachetsoahem dasmey putroh raghavnandany |Ne ismarahmeanritam vakyamimo tu tav putroko ||

    Valmiki proudly says to Ram, ‘I am the 10th son of Pracheta, and I never remember speaking even one untrue sentence’. How can such a missionary and follower of truth could have written an imaginary story of Ram?

    7. Has anyone given a detailed description of generation after generation of a fictitious, imaginary person? Kalidas has described 19 generations of Raghuvansh, Ram’s ancestors and descendants, in his book Raghuvansh. Shabdakalpdrum has mentioned the 11 names of Ram’s lineage as Bahuk, Sarg, Anshuman, Asamjas, Dilip, Bhagirath, Aja, Dashratha, Ramchandra, Kush and Luv and has mentioned these kings were the world rulers in that era. Even after all this if we don’t accept Ram as a historical figure it is beyond the realm of wisdom.

    8. Has anyone ever questioned the character of any writer when the hero and writer were contemporary? Rishi Valmiki was a contemporary of Ram and has used the present tense in the Ramayana, not the past and future tense. Then how can we question the historicity of Ram and other characters of the Ramayana?

    9. Even in modern times if we want to know the age of any person, we first look for his/her school or college certificates or his horoscope. If someone has no papers or documents to know his age then he is subjected to an ossification medical test. But when the question is of any ancient historical person, why do we ignore the writings and literary evidences and instead search for archeological evidences in buildings, statues, seals and bones found buried in earth?

    10. When the foreign Indologists and historians and their blind Indian followers want to search for history in the divine revelation the Vedas, they quote the Rig Veda (10.60.4.4) where there is a mention of Iksvaku, the ancestor of Ram and the founder of Ayodhya. The Atharva Veda mentions Ayodhya as having nine gates. The Atharva Veda (18.3.16) mentions the name of Vishwamitra, Vashista the preceptor of Ram, and Bhardwaj. But when it comes to Ram and Ramayana, they claim it is all mythological and fictitious. Is it not hypocritical?

    11. Even today, some of the Asian countries believe in Ram, Ravan, Lakshman, Sita and Hanuman. Sri Lanka believes in the Ramayana and therefore till date has proudly shown the coronation of Vibhishan in its parliament; Ashok Vatika has been converted into a famous tourist attraction and not only that, the Sri Lankan government is still paying pension to the descendents of Ravan. Thailand has a place Ayodhya, and the king there is still called Ram, even though a Buddhist. The most important event took place in the history of Indonesia. In November 1949, the Dutch government agreed to give independence and sovereignty to the Indonesian Islands, except Erian (New Guinea). The Indonesian public launched an agitation, asking also for the inclusion of New Guinea, but the Dutch government asked for any irrefutable proof to prove that New Guinea was an integral part of Indonesia.

    Then the people of Indonesia, who have a tradition of reciting the Valmiki Ramayana quoted the following verse ‘Yatanvanto yavdweepam ______ shishiro naam parvat’ (Kiskindha Khand, Sarg 40, Verse 30-31), which meant that ‘Sughreev had advised the leaders in his army to visit the eastern frontiers, in search of Sita, to go to Yavadwipa (Java) — the conglomeration of seven kingdoms, and from there to visit Swarnadeep (Sumatra) and after Sumatra to visit Shishir mountain (New Guinea) inhabited by gods and demons, which kisses the sky with its summit’. After reading this ancient irrefutable evidence, the Dutch handed over New Guinea also to Indonesia. New history was created in Indonesia just because of the Ramayana.

    In conclusion, it would not be wrong to say that not believing in the historicity of Ram and Ramayana would be obstinacy and an act of scholastic arrogance. Whether someone has faith or not, history is history. We might not have faith in Ayodhya, Saryu, Ganga, Sri Lanka, Ram, Sita, Hanuman, but how can we doubt their historical existence? I would like to recall the words of Swami Vivekanand to Indian writers of history and every scholar of our soil: ‘When a man has begun to be ashamed of his ancestors and his past, the end has come’. The birth anniversary of Ram, Ram Navmi, may awaken in us a true faith, which is devoid of ignorance and myopia. And let us inculcate the richness of character and righteousness of Ram in our midst.

    Dr Satya Pal Singh is the commissioner of police, Nagpur

    Dr Satya Pal Singh

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    Suresh Iyer nicely put, Sir. However, is Lord Rama confined to a birth place?
    September 19 at 6:08pm · LikeUnlike
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    Krishnabaalu Baalu Mr Suresh what do you mean? explain
    September 19 at 6:25pm · LikeUnlike
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    Krishnabaalu Baalu
    Mr Suresh Why millions of Muslims undertake Haj journey all the way from all parts of world? Is not GOD everywhere? For that matter why we go to POOJA ROOM that too after taking bath, and why cannot we worship God where and when we are? eve…n in our Bathroom? why Bethleham is holy for Christians? Why Macca for Muslims, so on so on? Who said Lord Ram is confined to his birth place. A birth place is holy for every holy man and every saint and sages too. Do you know Mr Annadurai the well known ‘atheist” has got his stature installed in Marina Beach and thousands worship him?
    Why Mahatma Gandhi’s birth place is now a place of tourist attraction and also become a place of worship? Is Mahatma confined to his birth place? You have no answer:
    I am an avant-garde in all respect and only for that rationale I love Hinduism. For that reason alone I decry the demolition of Babri Masjid. I consider it was an act of vandalism. I am also advocating a Law to be promulgated on urgent basis, declaring all the Historic structures and even if it is considered to be a Holy place of worship to whomsoever it may, be declared as a protected structures in addition to being an heritage one. So who ever claims the structure as a HINDU in origin so as to claim stake will be an offence.
    Now coming to the present state of Babri Masjid , Ram Mandir can be built with the consent of Muslims overwhelmingly. This will resolve the issue peacefully for a PEACEFULL FUTURE OF INDIA.See More
    September 19 at 6:52pm · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading…
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    Suresh Iyer Sep 24 – Ayodhya Verdict read my blog
    http://sureshmiyer.sulekha.com/blog/post/2010/09/sep-24-ayodhya-verdict.htm
    September 21 at 12:51am · LikeUnlike
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    • Mac says

      U dont have history of your socalled myths. Until Chandragupta came, India of today was not even populated. Then, where is yr mythical Ram coming in and yr temples of Ram, the ancestor of King Darius, the great. Ram-sin lived in old Elam, not present day India and your brahmins have twisted the original history each and every step in poetic forms. Even Rig veda the oldest is nothing but the teachings of the fallen angels, whom the grandson of Madai found written on stone inscription and copied and never told Noah, his father or his brothers because of fear of the teachings of fallen angels Shiva, the serpant, Mestema,the Satan himself and his angels as per the book of Jubilee and book of Enoch. Vedic religions are evil as it brings darkness both inside and outside, violence, chaos, blindfaith, filthiness, bloodthirstiness ashwamedha, purushamedha, balamedha and animal sacrifice, sati, devadashi pratha (temple prostitution), bestiality (Khajuraho temples, Ajanta Ellora, etc temples) , sex glorificatiton, and all abominatitons of this world, whose king is Satan. Check on my other comments on this blog, I mul not repeat it.

      • Ankur says

        @Mac : Here we go, first were the Germans who set claim to the veda (because of the lack of a reason for national identity and history within Europe) “Helena Petrovna Blavatsky” was one of the propounders of this claim and concotion, then can the Indologist of the likes of Max muller who mis-translated the veda and distrubed to the world their home grown judgements and ideologies about the veda and India(the cradel of all civilization).
        and this is noting new..
        Coming back to all that fantasied that you have pasted here.. Rama was the ancestor of some great persian,Would you be kind enough to let us know the family Lineage of pre and post Rama, now that you are here to re write indian history.

        Esther 1:1-3 clearly mentions, Ashusaures’ reigned from Ethiopia to India i.e. Northwest India, rest of India was not populated during his reign. So, Ramayan is nothing but a poetic mythology of ancestral worship

        –This really is a pathbreaking account of History and to the identity of Maryada purushottam Rama,besides Ramayana is not a text related to worship, Ancestral “worship” has never been the part of indic spirituality.may be it must be part of Europe, when they were marsh land with no civiliztion

        .. Hammurabi (Amorites), who also gave law code, who is the mythothological legend Ravana of Mahabharat.

        — Amazing,Ravana was in Ramayana not Mahabharata…such a mistake for an authentic babble(copy paste) of 1 page indian History.

        Ayodhya may be Agade the capital of Sargon which has not yet been identified. It is possible that Agade was near Der or the Heart near Harayu or Sarayu.
        — Now here you say Ayodhya may be Agade, when both Ayodhya and River Sarayu is present till date in the Plains of Utter Pradesh and find its mention in both the veda(rik and Atharva) and the Ramayana.

        BTW what is the relation between chandragupta Maurya ruling most of the indian subcontent and Rama..you are jsut a confused person with no idea of his own identity and history as well.

        Didnt find anyting of any substance in your post, baptised Indian Chritians have knowledge base that you have propagated by wester christian evangelists, Actual christians also dont belive(or know of) in all that you have posted

        • Mac says

          Ayodhiya is also a city in Thailand. They think Ram was born in Thailand. Google it, there are movies of Thailand Ayothiya on youtube. Indian mythology is a redefined history of Elamites and Medes/Mittani people who lived in old Elam which is present day south Iran and Iraq extending upto parts of Gujarat and north west India of today. As I already mentioned that until Chandragupta I, Elamites/Indians did not extended futher into present day India. There were two ancient civilizations into existence when King Darius was ruling. They are Elamites and Babylonians. Elam’s capital was Susa (Susania) which is present day near north of Indus valley civilization in south Iran. Susa was the grand daughter of Elam. Shiva was one of the major 300 gods worshipped in these two civilizations and when Abraham was alive. The folklores and legends of myths of these people are redefined in hindu scriptures. But those who wrote the history twisted the history to redefine their fake glory as there were hundreds of kings who ruled all over India. Rig Veda was non-existent when King Darius lived. There is no mention of any veda in the history or culture of Elamites. There was a river flowing in Indus valley which is no more, dried up. The Book of Genesis identifies four rivers that went out of Eden, the Pishon, Gihon, Tigris, and Euphrates. Only the last two of which are clearly known to us, but the Gihon is described as being in Ethiopia, which is actually in another continent. Now that the entrance to Garden of Eden is Macpelah where all the patriarchs and matriarchs were laid from Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac and Jacob except Rachel Jacob’s (Israel) wife. The cave of Macpelah is in present day Hebron, Israel. The books which the bible references were written in Hebrew and were not available in English, but are now available. These books provide more clear picture and details of the ancient history. Also, historians like Herodotus and Josephus records more details about these ancient people. There were 70 nations into existence born thru the 3 sons of Noah viz. Shem, Ham and Japheth when Abraham was alive, Genesis 10 is the Table of Nations. Each nation is named after the sons of these 3 Noah’s sons. In my other comment, I have given details of nations born out of the sons of Shem and Ham. Early history shows the Japhethites split into two groups. One group settled in the region of present-day India and Central Asia, and the other group in the European theater. Indo-European languages originate from those people groups who migrated throughout western Eurasia (Europe, the Near East, Anatolia, and the Caucasus). Together they form what is known as the “Indo-European” family of nations. Both of these divisions trace their ancestry back to Japheth. For example, early Aryans knew him as Djapatischta (Chief of the race), Greeks referred to Japheth as Iapetos or Japetos, Indians called him Jyapeti or Pra-Japati, Romans used Ju-Pater or Jupiter, the Saxons perpetuated his name as Iafeth, subsequently transliterated as Sceaf (pronounced “sheef” or “shaif”—and recorded his name in their early genealogies as the son of Noah, the forebear of their various peoples), and the variant Seskef was used by early Scandinavians. All of these peoples, we must remember, were pagans whose knowledge or even awareness of the book of Genesis had been lost, or was non-existent. Remember all the descendents of Elam and Madai; they used the suffix “STAN” where they lived like Hindustan, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, etc. Truth never changes, it changes things around it.

          • SDC says

            Mac, yours was long post. Just 2 quick points: There is no Sarayu river in Thailand’s Ayutthaya and India was never known as Hindustan up until the advent of the muslims. It was known as Aryavart or Bharatvarsha.

          • Mac says

            You are right about it. Indus valley had the river Indus or Saraswati, which dried up. Now, I am not sure as per the Genesis account, the two missing rivers Gihon and Pishon, which came out of Garden of Eden. In fact, the Genesis records 4 rivers, Gihon, Pishon, Tigris and Euphrates. Indus civilization was on the banks of this dried up river and it is the Old Elam. You can google old Elam. However, somewhere on this blog, I have mentioned the nations born out of the 70 sons of Shem, Ham and Japheth, the 3 sons of Noah. The information I have provided comes from Genesis 10 of the Bible has been found completely accurate; resulting partly from linguistic studies, partly from archaeology, and, more recently still, from the findings of physical anthropologists, who are, to this day, recovering important clues to lines of migration in ancient historic times. As implied in verse 32 of Genesis 10, this Table includes everybody; meaning that so-called fossil man, primitive peoples (ancient and modern) and modern man are all derived from Noah’s three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Acts 17:26 states, “From one man (or one blood) He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live,” a corroboration of Genesis 10. In light of this, findings from anthropology, archaeology, ethnography, ethnohistory, genetics, geology, and sociology substantiate an alternate interpretation of the history of humanity. As one archaeologist, William Albright, noted “it [the Bible] remains an astonishingly accurate document…and shows such remarkably ‘modern’ understanding of the ethnic and linguistic situation in the modern world, in spite of all its complexity, that scholars never fail to be impressed with it’s knowledge of the subject.” We can further infer from political histories—kingdoms, empires, and their rulers; also from artists, poets, philosophers, architects and mathematicians who enriched their individual cultures. Additionally, references from historical records, ancient literature, mythology, burial customs and other sources all provide strong evidences. What bible speaks is absolute truth and nothing but the truth with internal evidence, external evidence, archeological proofs and today DNA evidence exactly as it is written in the Bible.

          • Ankur says

            @Mac Just a Note to show how ill read and ill educated you are : Hindustan is the not the historic name it just came a few hundred years ago, the actual name is Bharata, i would suggest you stop wasting server space here and gain some real knowledge

          • Mac says

            So I am ill read and ill educated! Thank you.

            The original name is Bharatvarsha, which was NOT there. History says that there were hundreds of small tribal kings, nothing more.

            God bless.

          • Jay says

            “History” says huh. Your distorted self promoting biblical history is a joke, and that is why you constantly try to push as real history.

  12. abhijeet4288 says

    According to Ahmadiyya belief, the Islamic technical terms “warner” (natheer), “prophet” (nabi), “messenger” (rasul) and “envoy” (mursal) are synonymous in meaning. The belief in prophets of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is different from that of the Orthodox Islamic, Jewish, Zoroastrian or Christian belief of prophets. There are two kinds of prophethood in Ahmadiyya Islam , law-bearing prophets, who bring a new law and dispensation such as Moses and Muhammad; and non-law-bearing who appear within a given dispensation such as Jeremiah, Jesus and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Adam is regarded as the first human with whom God spoke with and revealed to him his divine will and thus the first prophet but is not regarded as the first human on earth by the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, contrary to Orthodox Islamic, Jewish and Christian beliefs.Aside from the belief in all prophets in the Old Testament of the Bible, in Jesus, John the Baptist and in Muhammad, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community also regards Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha, Confucius and Ghulam Ahmad as prophets. Ahmadis believe Muhammad to be the final law-bearing prophet but teach the continuity of prophethood.

  13. Sameer says

    All the believers of Ram ..
    If Ram is existing and yes he was a living example for humanity
    Was he Buried or burnt as per Hindu mythology.And being a such a big king and a valued man to the Humanity
    where was he ? Buried …. No Human can Vanish in Thin air …Even Rasool-e-Muhammed (SAHS) was buried after his death and his family members where also we still have their grave’s many other religious Prophet’s have been also buried or burnt as their religious aspects and they some where or the other lay they bodies.
    Where was Ram’s family buried or burnt where his sons – brother’s parents -Given their last respects.

    • Pragnabharathy says

      Q) Was he (Rama) Buried or burnt as per Hindu mythology.
      A) Uttar Ramayan categorically states that after loosing Sita and Lakshmana Rama made his son Lava as king of Lahore (Lahore’s old name was Lavpuri. You can google. He made his second son Kush the king of Ayodhya. After this ceremony he walked into river Sarayu (Mahaprasthan) inviting death and his physical body got merged in the flowing Sarayu river.

      Q) No Human can Vanish in Thin air …Even Rasool-e-Muhammed (SAHS) was buried after his death and his family members where also we still have their grave’s many other religious Prophet’s have been also buried or burnt as their religious aspects and they some where or the other lay they bodies. Where was Ram’s family buried or burnt where his sons – brother’s parents -Given their last respects.

      A) Yes indeed no human can vanish in thin air. Rama walked into Sarayu for Mahaprasthana Mahaprasthana is way to giveup life. When got defeated by Chitrasena, Duryodhana preferred Mahaprasthana, later was stopped by Karna. Pandava’s and Draupadi preferred Mahaprasthana and walked towards higher world. Refer Virata Parva and Mahaprasthana parva of Mahabharata. Many sages preferred Mahaprasthana to give up life voluntarily. This is an ancient practice in India then in the olden days. As far as other relatives of Rama are concerned, as they are not incarnations of the Lord, no further mention of them were given elsewhere. We honour Gandhiji as father of nation. Do we care who is his samdhan? certainly No. Jawaharlal Nehru was indeed an inspiration for us. We honour him by celebrating his birthday as childrens’ day. Do we care where his maternal grandfather burnt? Certainly No. The same applies here also.

  14. Sameer says

    WHEN WAS RAMA BORN: (based on Valmiki`s Ramayana) 1,000,000 years ago. The period of his birth will probably be more than this. May be not sure

    So Why do we make serials and scripts on it with those ERA Humanity wearing so much of Gold precision stones and other valuables.
    Was Humanity so much developed and knowledgeable….
    If it was why couldn’t they made Ra ma’s each family member place of death and birth place a sacred place a place to be blessed and prayed ?

    • आर्यव्रतस्थ says

      @Sameer What is wrong with People!!, Gold,silver and other valuables? in serilas/scripts.. how is that related to anything here and how does that question anything.
      Even then all the metals and valuables have been present since time immemorial. Even diamons are said to be rediscoverd in the Land of Bharat, if you dont know.Even the Iron that was made in Ancient india has no answer till today(now places like these are said to made by Muslim invading barbarians what a joke)
      e.g.
      http://www.exploredelhi.com/qutub-minar/iron-pillar.html

      and by this standard, no doubt the earlier ages were much advanced that todays world , now the knowledge is lost.

      Rama’s era was a vedic era and no one used to worship human forms and thats wat is right and thats wat the Veda teaches. so the your question is not relevant.

      • Sameer says

        I don’t Deny that all these where there I sure and YES India was and will be the richest core for all the metals – and thus may be the people used all those precious metals in that ERA -( MAY BE )

        I ask – if people had all this knowledge why didn’t they Saved their past as well

        Like why didn’t they gave their birth place and death place so much importance at that time

        Why all of sudden places of Birth Death and other things given importance from past 100 years.?
        If no one worshipped human forms in that age why do people Worship Idols of Ram since ages

        • आर्यव्रतस्थ says

          @Sameer yar tum bhi kamal karte ho… how do you think the name “ayodhya” , “avadh” , “rameshwaram” ,”Prayag”(now allahabad) are still being used ,its only because they have been given due importance for valid reasons.
          The questions you ask are right , but instead of correcting our brethren through the knowledge of Veda, we should not embrace a foreign faith of hatred and violence
          There has been a gradual degradation of the vedic society into what we see today its all because people have forgotten the veda ;and its teaching have been and are misrepresented and misinterpreted by scholars who were/are no better than looters/parasites in their real lives.

    • Pragnabharathy says

      Q) So Why do we make serials and scripts on it with those ERA Humanity wearing so much of Gold precision stones and other valuables.

      This is because we believe the king wore golden ornament even at night. Shyam Benegal’s “Bharat Ek Khoj” telecasted on Doordarshan in olden days showed all the kings and queens without glary ornaments. Simple and plain as we do.

      Q) Was Humanity so much developed and knowledgeable….
      A) Yes, indeed. Bharadwaja the sage-teacher, who taught Rama many principles of ruling a country wrote “Vaimanika Sastra”, the science of aircrafts. with some search you can find this fact even on google.Iron was used for making arrows, armers and wheels of the chariots. Matali came with a flying chariot for Rama. Ravana was already with an aircraft, Pushpak Vimana.

  15. Sameer says

    To all peoples concern this is a web page where we are sharing our views and try to gain knowledge to Our believes and disbelieve .

    I think better answer to queries rather than pointing out a Individual by naming them

  16. Human says

    Nice to read all the comments here.

    I feel very sad …no one speak about humanity and peace.All are fighting for nothing.Life moves on.
    Be happy…no poison tree…try to help eachother…u will see God of ur faith and beliefs..

    cheers..

  17. Pragnabharathy says

    @ Arya:

    Q)Sir…I also know that it was a war…!!! I am asking Why it was a war…??? Ravan abducted Mata Sita… Its the personal problem between Ram and Ravan…

    A) No.. its not personal. Many ministers and elders advised Ravana o return Sita back, as it is unfair for a king and not good for the nation. He preferred to keep Sita in Lanka and preferred a war. There was a peace talk proposed from Rama’s Side, through Angad. Even then Ravana preferred war. War is no personal.

    Q) He should go and directly kill Ravan (killing Ravan for this is not a good act, bcoz Lakshman cut the nose of Ravan’s Sister…Will you allow anyone to cut your sister’s nose…???…)…why he declares war against a nation…???

    A) Lakshmana defaced Surpanakha. When Surpanaka expressed love towards Rama, he said he is in the company of his wife and advised Surpanaka to ask whether Lakshmana is readery to marry her. Even Lakshmana rejected the love of Surpanakha. Then Surpanakha jumped on Sita to kill her to become Rama’s concert. Then Lakshman caught her and defaced her. Isn’t Lakshama permitted to save his relative? He saved Sita from Surpanakha. Then Surpanakha provoked her brother Ravana to adbuct Sita. Against the advises of elders and ministers, Ravana abducted Sita. Hence this became a national issue, but not personal. Hence the war against the nation.

    Q) Because of a personal issue…why innocent people are killed…at both sides…???

    A) Once again to state this was not a personal issue. If it were a personal issue, why the Lanka army prepared for war? When once you prefer war, you were ready for all the consequences. By being with Ravana, the soldiers prefered war and died in the war. Hence innocent were not killed, but only soldiers died. Innocent people remained in the city and later came under the rule of Vibhishana. If all the innocent were killed in the war, then who were ruled by Vibhishana.

    Please read Ramayana of Valmiki alone for authenticity, but not later Ramayanas in different languages.

      • SSS says

        @ Pragnabharathy:

        Thanks for your explanation…

        I know these stories…but the explanation is not acceptable…

        Just because Ravan’s sister…illtreated Sita…its not good for a warrior to cut one’s nose…
        (till that time Ravan was unaware of Who’s Ram and Sita…)

        Just bcoz his sister was punished…Ravan came there…and abducted Sita…(anyhow Ravan’s act was also un acceptable…but considering his situation…everyone will think of the same…)

        This is totally between two families…

        The war was declared because of Hanuman’s act of burning the city…its not because of unacceptance of Ravan…

        Its better to read Ramayan fully again and please analyze…

  18. abhijeet4288 says

    Rama’s day and time of birth, as well as marriage to Sita are celebrated by Hindus across the world as Rama Navami. People normally perform marriage celebration for small statues of Rama and Sita in their houses and at the end of the day the idols are taken in a procession on the streets. Procession of idols in the evening that is accompanied with play of water and colours. For the occasion, Hindus are supposed to fast (or restrict themselves to a specific diet). Temples are decorated and readings of the Ramayana take place. Along with Rama, people also pray to Sita, Lakshmana and Hanumana.
    The occasion of victory over Ravana and the rakshasas is celebrated as the 10-day Vijayadashami, also known as Dussehra. The Ram Leela is publicly performed in many villages, towns and cities in India. Rama’s return to Ayodhya and his coronation are celebrated as Diwali, also known as the Festival of Lights. The latter two are the most important and popular festivals in India and for Hindus across the world. In Malaysia, Diwali is known as Hari Deepavali, and is celebrated during the seventh month of the Hindu solar calendar. It is a federal public holiday. In many respects it resembles the traditions followed in the Indian subcontinent. In Nepal, Diwali is known as Tihar and celebrated during the October/November period. Here, though the festival is celebrated for five days, the traditions vary from those followed in India. On the first day, cows are worshipped and given offerings. On the second day, dogs are revered and offered special food. On the third day, celebrations follow the same pattern as in India, with lights and lamps and much social activity. On the fourth day Yama, the Lord of Death, is worshipped and appeased. On the fifth and final day, brothers sisters meets . In Guyana, Diwali is marked as a special occasion and celebrated with a lot of fanfare. It is observed as a national holiday in this part of the world and some ministers of the Government also take part in the celebrations publicly.

    • ganesh says

      @sandeep bansal , date of ramayan about 7000 years ago is absolutely wrong..Its atleast more than 8 lakh years ago because shri ram was born in treta yuga…

  19. krishnarao says

    And for the fools that keep posting things about puranas. Arya Samaj and any Vedic person does not believe in the puranas. They made up stories and they do not support Vedic views and Values. This is ridiculous the number of times we repeat this. Puranas are not supported by the Vedas. Vedic people do not support the Puranas. Stop trying to use puranas as some bullshit excuse to talk S**t to Vedic people. Vedic people do not believe in that.

    • Satyen says

      Krishna Rao,
      In my opinion, you are a Vedic person and are supposed not to be swayed by some comments. Is it right for a Vedic person to spit venom in the form of expletive language that you have used above against the Puranas? Puranas were meant originally to spread the vedic knowledge in the simplified and understandable way for those who didn’t have high intellect. Their purpose is to teach the people of wide spectrum, how to incorporate the Vedic teachings in our day to day life. If you see something against the Vedas teachings in them, that’s due to the following reasons:
      1. Addition/delition/modification by some people with vested motives.
      2. Other reason is our lack of understanding (at some of the places).
      If you honestly read the Puranas, you will appreciate it except for a few places. Hence the best bet is “Accept the Puranas to the extend they are in line with the Vedas”. Any thing against the Vedas will have to be reconciled with in the light with the Vedas. If, it cannot be reconciled with the Vedic teachings, must be discarded.

      See the beautiful shloka below from the Geeta (I know, it’s not part of the Puranas but puranas have similar pieces), how it incorporates the Vedic teaching related to communicating witht somebody:

      Anudwegkaran vakyam, Satyampriyhitam cha yat
      Swadhyayabhyasanam chaiva, Vangmayam tap uchyate.
      (Words which cause no annoyance to thers and are truthful, agreeable and wholesome, as well as the study of the Vedas and other Shastras and the practice of repetition of Divine mantras (such as Gayatri mantra), is known as the austerity of speech.
      The translation is from the Geeta press bookwith slight modification.

      Pranaam to you.

      • krishnarao says

        Namaste Satyen,

        Thank you for your writing to me. I never said I was perfect. And the reason why I wrote what I did, had to do with many of the remarks I have seen by non Dharmic people trying to attack Arya Samaj and other Vedic people. Just was making it clear we do not support the Puranas. Yes, there might be some good stories or moral lesson in very few of them. But some of the fantastic stories and etc. spoken in them are not supported by the Vedas.

        “Puranas were meant originally to spread the vedic knowledge in the simplified and understandable way for those who didn’t have high intellect.”
        – I disagree with you on this 100%. People today hear more about the puranas than anything else, and I don’t see puranas helping them one bit. If anything, Hindus have been degraded in their life style and behavior. ANd I blame it on the puranas. When you hear all these ridiculous and unrelatable stories from the puranas many things can happen. First people can make up a million ways of what they want it to mean and justify anything. Second they won’t care and do their own thing. And finally say why the heck am I part of this civilization that has a bunch of BS stories. I’m sorry, but the puranas have hurt our society than help it. Time for our people to put aside the puranas and as the Vedas and Gita say, focus on yoga and meditation for salvation. The true way of liberating ourselves to Moksha.

  20. Satyen says

    Krishnarao jee,

    Namaste. I bow before you for your humility displaying the characteristic of a Vedic follower. Non of us are perfect and I am definitely one of them.

    For your second paragraph, I could only agree partially. Puranas along with the Ramayan and Mahabharat, has retained some of the Vedic teachings at for the last two millenia. The problem is people have hardly read them or heard them. And we should not forget that Rana Pratap, Chhatrapati Shivajee, Chhatrasaal, Vikramaditya, Lakshmibai etc. were brought up by the Vedic teachings gleaned from the Mahabharat and the Ramayan. Raam, Krishn, Arjun Hanumaan, Seeta, Anusuyaa, Damayanti etc. had been the role models of many of the enlightened personalities. Of course care must be taken as they have definitely been changed due to vested interests over the centuries. I will give you one example. I thank Zakir Bhai to bring the Bhavishya Puraan before the masses. It also brought the warning to the Bharteeyas about Muhammad and his entourage and its intention. The problem was people didn’t care it and propagated that all the religions are the same – against the Bhavishya Puraan. In short, my stand is accept the puraanas in the light of the Vedas and as long as it’s not against the Vedic teachings.

    At last Let’s agree to disagree on a few minor issues with our sole goal of spreading the Vedic teaching and destroying the fanatic philosophy that spreads hatred. Again a beautiful Shlok from the Geeta:

    Sadrisham chestate svasyaah, Prakriteh Jnanvaanapi
    Prakitim yaanti bhutaani, Nigraham kim karishyati.

    Everyone including the intellectuals follow their nature. As all the creatures are behaving according to their samskars accumulated from the previous births, just admonishing won’t work.

    Pranaam

    • krishnarao says

      Namaste Satyen,

      You are right, you and I will not agree on this topic. But I will address what you have wrote for the benefit for other readers on here.

      1. You made the point that the puranas have some good stories. We just need to pick the ones that agree with the Vedas. Basically you are asking everyone to become detectives and scholars and do some extensive research and analysis. To expect this of the average person and non the less the average India (many who are poor) to do this is totally unrealistic. People want simple information, they don’t want to go through a research session every time they hear a story form a purana and decipher which story or part of story is right and wrong. It defeats the whole purpose of what you were saying, a simple way for the common man to get the essences of the Vedas.

      2. From Arya Samaj and other Vedic people’s perceptive, we do not believe in the puranas also because they promote the worship of idols and many gods. If you are unaware, Arya Samaj and Vedic people do not approve of the worship of idols and gods. We believe in prayer to the one God. And the best way to do that is by meditation and yoga.

      3. There is a lot of superstition in the puranas, and that is not supported by the Vedas. Superstition is actually against the Vedas.

      4. “Of course care must be taken as they have definitely been changed due to vested interests over the centuries.”
      – I think they were made up from the start. But changes were also made through out history, by both pro Hindu groups and anti Hindu groups. I see it on both sides.

      5. “Rana Pratap, Chhatrapati Shivajee, Chhatrasaal, Vikramaditya, Lakshmibai etc. were brought up by the Vedic teachings gleaned from the Mahabharat and the Ramayan. Raam, Krishn, Arjun Hanumaan, Seeta, Anusuyaa, Damayanti etc. had been the role models of many of the enlightened personalities. ”
      – I don’t think either of us can say with certainty what their education was like. We do not have enough information on that. We have some…

      • krishnarao says

        5. “Rana Pratap, Chhatrapati Shivajee, Chhatrasaal, Vikramaditya, Lakshmibai etc. were brought up by the Vedic teachings gleaned from the Mahabharat and the Ramayan. Raam, Krishn, Arjun Hanumaan, Seeta, Anusuyaa, Damayanti etc. had been the role models of many of the enlightened personalities. ”
        – I don’t think either of us can say with certainty what their education was like. We do not have enough information on that. We have some references, and we can tell from their actions they were great people, but we don’t know the details of their curriculum or education either.

        6. “I thank Zakir Bhai to bring the Bhavishya Puraan before the masses. It also brought the warning to the Bharteeyas about Muhammad and his entourage and its intention. The problem was people didn’t care it and propagated that all the religions are the same – against the Bhavishya Puraan. ”
        – If this is your reason to support the puranas, it is a very bad reason. Yes, I would agree that naik is a total and utter fool. I would be the very first person to say that. But let’s be clear, there is enough proof of his references to the Vedas are mistranslations and fake references. And he can be defeated just by using the Vedas. We don’t need to go grab false stories to discredit him. This also goes back to what I was saying. Puranas were made up from the very beginning. They were also change by both pro Hindu and anti Hindu groups. And in this case some people have used anti Hindu text to push their bulls**t. Let’s not fall into their trap at all and not give them the dignity of using the puranas at all.

        You seem like a good person. I still consider you one of my Dharmic brothers, but I disagree with you when it comes to the puranas. Everything I said was with no hate. Opinion.

        Best,
        Krishna

        • krishnarao says

          Just wanted to add:

          Arya Samaj and other Vedic people do not support incarnations of God, prophets, god men, holy spirits, son of god, demi gods, or any of that nonsense. All men and women have the spark of the divine in us and we can all personally connect with God. We don’t need some superman in between to connect with God. We believe in humanity.

          So you must be wondering what Arya Samaj and other Dharmic people’s interpretation of Krishna or Rama is. Simple, they were just men like you and me. They just so happen to do their meditation and Yoga and connect with God, and connect with the highest state of consciousness. And anyone can do what they have done. We can experience the same thing they have experience. There is no exclusivity to this one group of people from history. Anyone can do it. We have the Rishi tradition. All a Rishi means is someone who has done their yoga or meditation and has connected with the higher state of consciousness, god, or achieve enlightenment. Simple and anyone can become a rishi. There is no exclusivity. There is no issue with an ego trip with Dharam like other religions.

          If you are still confused, let us take the example with the person who discovered the calculus. For the sake of argument, let us say that Newton is the one who discovered calculus. Now, to know how to use it and apply it, do we need to know Newton’s history. Nope, we just need that technique. Same with True Dharm. we don’t need to know the history anyone or stories. Just need to know the techniques and that is all. Which is yoga and meditation for true path of Dharm.

          • krishnarao says

            And yes, it might be good to know about some historical people, but it is not required.

    • Mac says

      Islam is Din Asif, means “religion of sword”. Whereas Saudi Arabia’s flag states “Allah is the only god and Mohummad is his prophet” and underneath there is a Sword. After Jesus Christ defeated Satan on the cross, Satan took 600 years to find a perfect schizophrenic from Ben Al Querishi tribe of Ismael (means God hears) named Mohummad to counter judaism and christianity; Yeshua, the Yah, the I AM, the hebrew God of OT. Allah was one of the 300 major gods and goddesses worshipped in mesopotamia when Abraham was alive, it means, it was way before Mohummad was even born. Ismaelites mixed up this Allah an Egyptian god’s name with the Living God of Abraham. Rest is in my comment below. Both vedic religions and Islam are pagan religions, not faith, but blindfaith. When you say Faith, His Name is Yeshua Ha Mashaiach, one Name above heavens. Revelations: The One who rides the white horse His Name is Faith(ful). If you want histrocity of Ram, I have given it below, its just ancestor worship and local demon worship, myths. You can google Book of Jubilee and Book of Enoch for greater details of what happened in the ancient world. These books are referenced in the Bible. Early history shows the Japhethites split into two groups. One group settled in the region of present-day India and Central Asia, and the other group in the European theater. Indo-European languages originate from those people groups who migrated throughout western Eurasia (Europe, the Near East, Anatolia, and the Caucasus). Together they form what is known as the “Indo-European” family of nations. Both of these divisions trace their ancestry back to Japheth. For example, early Aryans knew him as Djapatischta (Chief of the race), Greeks referred to Japheth as Iapetos or Japetos, East Indians called him Jyapeti or Pra-Japati, Romans used Ju-Pater or Jupiter, the Saxons perpetuated his name as Iafeth, subsequently transliterated as Sceaf (pronounced “sheef” or “shaif”—and recorded his name in their early genealogies as the son of Noah, the forebear of their various peoples), and the variant Seskef was used by early Scandinavians. All of these peoples, we must remember, were pagans whose knowledge or even awareness of the book of Genesis had been lost, or was non-existent. Genesis 10 is the Table of Nations. There were 70 nations into existence when Abraham lived thru the 3 sons of Noah after the flood namely Shem, Ham and Japheth and the earth was again repopulated. These are as follows: Shem. Also Sem. Literal meanings are named or renown or royal one (father of the Semitic people groups – Shemites). The sons of Shem were:

      (1) Elam “eternity”(sons were Shushan, Machul and Harmon) – (Elamites, Indians, Persians);

      (2) Asshur “a step” or “strong” (sons were Mirus and Mokil) – (Assyrians/Northern Iraqis);

      (3) Arphaxad “I shall fail” (sons were Shelach, Anar and Ashcol) – (Chaldeans/Southern Iraqis, Hebrews/Israelites/Jews1, Arabians/Bedouins, Moabites/Jordanians/Palestinians, and related groups);

      (4) Lud “strife” (sons were Pethor and Bizayon) – (Ludim, Lubim, Ludians, Ludu, Lydians, Chubs, other related groups in Asia Minor and North Africa);

      (5) Aram “exalted” (sons were Uz, Chul, Gather and Mash) – (Aramaeans/Syrians, Lebanese, other related groups), and remnant groups throughout Asia, the Middle East, and North Africa.

      Hebrews descended from Eber (Heber/Hebrew), a great-grandson of Shem. Six generations after Heber, Abram (Abraham, 20th generation from Adam and 10th generation from Noah) was born, so Abraham was both a Hebrew and a Semite, born of the line of Heber and Shem. Ishmael and Isaac were born of Abraham. However, Ishmael was born of an unlawful union between Abraham and his Egyptian maid Hagar (Genesis 16, Galatians 4), making Ishmael half Semitic and half Hamitic.

      Ham. Also Cham or Kham. Literal meanings are passionate, hot, burnt or dark (father of the Australoid, Negroid and Mongoloid people groups – Hamites). He was the progenitor of:

      (1) Cush “black” (sons were Seba, Havilah, Sabta, Raama and Satecha) – also Chus, Kush, Kosh, Cushaean (Cushites, Nubians, Ethiopians, Ghanaians, Africans, Bushmen, Pygmies, Australian Aborignies, New Guineans, other related groups);

      (2) Mizraim “double straits” (sons were Lud, Anom, Pathros, Chasloth and Chaphtor) – also Masr, Misr, Misraim, Mitzraim, Mizraite, Mitsrayim (Egyptians, Khemets, Copts, other related groups);

      (3) Phut “a bow” (sons were Gebul, Hadan, Benah and Adan) – also Punt, Puta, Put, Puni, Phoud, Pul, Fula, Putaya, Putiya, Libia, Libya (Libyans, Cyrenacians, Tunisians, Berbers, Somalians, Sudanese, North Africans, other related groups);

      (4) Canaan “down low” (sons were Zidon, Heth, Amori, Gergashi, Hivi, Arkee, Seni, Arodi, Zimodi and Chamothi) – also Canaanites, Cana, Chna, Chanani, Chanana, Canaana, Kana, Kenaanah, Kena’ani, Kena’an, Kn’nw, Kyn’nw, Kinnahu, Kinahhi, Kinahni, Kinahna, Kinahne, Sin, Sina, Sino (Mongols, Asians, Orientals, Chinese, Tibetans, Taiwanese, Thais, Vietnamese, Laotians, Cambodians, Japanese, Eskimos, American/Native/Red Indians, Malayasians, Indonesians, Filipinos, Hawaiians, Maoris, Polynesians, Tahitians, Guamanians, Samoans, Fijians, Tongans, Tokelauans, Tuvaluans, Pacific Islanders and related groups).

      Tribes in other parts of Africa, Arabia and Asia, aboriginal groups in Australia, native Pacific Islanders, American Indians and Eskimos were birthed from descendants of Canaan, Cush, Mizraim and Phut.

      Japheth. Also Diphath. Literal meanings are opened, enlarged, fair or light (father of the Caucasoid/Indo-Europoid, Indo-European, Indo-Germanic, or Indo-Aryan people groups – Japhethites). Japheth is the progenitor of seven sons:

      (1) Gomer “complete” (sons were Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah) – also Gamir, Gommer, Gomeri, Gomeria, Gomery, Goth, Guth, Gutar, Götar, Gadelas, Galic, Gallic, Galicia, Galica, Galatia, Gael, Galatae, Galatoi, Gaul, Galls, Goar, Celt, Celtae, Celticae, Kelt, Keltoi, Gimmer, Gimmerai, Gimirra, Gimirrai, Gimirraya, Kimmer, Kimmeroi, Kimirraa, Kumri, Umbri, Cimmer, Cimmeria, Cimbri, Cimbris, Crimea, Chomari, Cymric, Cymry, Cymru, Cymbry, Cumber (Cimmerians, Caledonians, Picts, Milesians, Umbrians, Helvetians, Celts, Galatians, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Goths, Vandals, Scandinavians, Jutes, Teutons, Franks, Burgundians, Alemanni, Germans, Belgians, Dutch, Luxembourgers, Liechensteiners, Austrians, Swiss, Angles, Saxons, Britons, English, Cornish, Irish, Welsh, Scots, French, and other related groups);

      (2) Magog “land of Gog” (sons were Elichanaf, Lubal, Baath, Jobhath and Fathochta) – also Gog, Cog, Gogh, Gogue, Gogarene, Jagog, Yajuj, Majuj, Juz, Majuz, Agag, Magug, Magogae, Magogue, Ma-Gogue, Mugogh, Mat Gugi, Gugu, Gyges, Bedwig, Moghef, Magogian, Massagetae, Getae, Dacae, Sacae, Saka, Scyth, Skythe, Scythi, Scythii, Scythini, Scythia, Scythae, Sythia, Scythes, Skuthai, Skythai, Cathaia, Scythia, Skythia, Scynthia, Scynthius, Sythian, Skudra Sclaveni, Samartian, Sogdian, Slovon, Skodiai, Scotti, Skolot, Skoloti, Scoloti, Skolo-t, Skoth-ai, Skoth, Skyth, Skuthes, Skuth-a, Slavs, Ishkuzai, Askuza, Askuasa, Alani, Alans, Alanic, Ulan, Uhlan (Scythians, Scots); also Rasapu, Rashu, Rukhs, Rukhs-As, Rhos, Ros, Rosh, Rox, Roxolani, Rhoxolani, Ruskolan, Rosichi, Rhossi, Rusichi, Rus, Ruska, Rossiya, Rusian (Russians4, Belarusians, Ukrainians, Chechens, Dagestanis); also Mas-ar, Mas-gar, Masgar, Mazar, Madj, Madjar, Makr-on, Makar, Makaroi, Merkar, Magor, Magar, Magyar (Hungarians – also Huns, Hungar, Hunugur, Hurri, Gurri, Onogur, Ugor, Ungar, Uhor, Venger); Yugoslavians, Finns, Lapps, Estonians, Siberians, Voguls, Poles, Czechs, Croatians, Bosnians, Montenegrins, Mordvins, Serbians, Slovenians, Slovakians, Karelians, Komi-Zyrians, Udmurts, Izhorians, Livonians, Bulgarians, Avars, Tartars, Turks, Colchi, Armenians, Georgians and other related groups).

      (3) Madai “middle land” (sons were Achon, Zeelo, Chazoni and Lotalso) – also Mada, Amada, Madae, Madea, Manda, Maday, Media, Madaean, Mata, Matiene, Mitani, Mitanni, Minni, Megala (Medes, Aryans, Persians, Parsa, Parsees, Achaemenians, Manneans, Caspians, Kassites, Iranians, Achaemenians, Kurds, North and Northwest Indians, Romani, Pathans, Hazaras), including the peoples of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Azerbaijan, Khazachstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikstan and Kyrgyzstan, and other related groups;

      (4) Javan “miry” (sons were Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim and Dodanim) – also Jevanim, Iewanim, Iawan, Iawon, Iamanu, Iones, Ionians, Ellas, Ellines, El-li-ness, Hellas, Hellenes, Yavan, Yavanas, Yawan, Yuban, Yauna, Uinivu, Xuthus (Grecians, Greeks, Elysians, Spartans, Dorians, Tartessians, Britons6, Aeolians, Achaeans, Myceneans, Macedonians, Albanians, Carthaginians, Cyprians, Cypriots, Cretans, Latins, Venetians, Sicanians, Italics, Romans, Valentians, Sicilians, Cilicians, Italians, Spaniards, Portugese, other related groups);

      (5) Tubal “brought” (sons were Ariphi, Kesed and Taari) – also Tabal, Tabali, Tubalu, Thobal, Thobel (Thobelites, Iberoi, Ibers, Iberians, Ivernians, Irish, Spanish, other related groups), Tbilisi, Tibarenoi, Tibareni, Tibar, Tibor, Sabir, Sapir, Sabarda, Subar, Subartu, Tobol, Tobolsk (Cossacks, Samoyeds, Siberians, other related groups);

      (6) Meshech “drawing out” (sons were Dedon, Zaron and Shebashnialso) – Me’shech, Mes’ek, Meshekh, Meshwesh, Meskhi, Meschera, Mushch, Muschki, Mushki, Mishi, Muski, Mushku, Musku, Muskeva, Muska, Muskaa, Muskai, Maskali, Machar, Maskouci, Mazakha, Mazaca, Mtskhetos, Modar-es, Moskhi, Moshkhi, Mosah, Mosher, Moshch, Moschis, Mosoch, Moschi, Moschian, Moshakian, Mo’skhoi, Moschoi, Mosochenu, Mosochean, Mossynes, Mosynoeci, Moskva, Moscovy, Moscow (Muscovites, Latvians, Lithuanians, Romanians, other related groups);

      (7) Tiras “desire” (sons were Benib, Gera, Lupirion and Gilak) – also Tiracian, Thracian, Thirasian, Thiras, Thuras, Tyritae, Thrasus, Thrace, Trausi, Tereus, Trecae, Troas, Tros, Troia, Troiae, Troyes, Troi, Troy, Troya, Trajan, Trojan, Taunrus, Tyras, Tyrsen, Tyrrhena, Illyrian, Ilion, Ilium, Rasenna, Tursha, Tusci, Tuscany, Etruria, Etruschi, Etruscan, Eturscan, Euskadi, Euskara (Basque), Erul, Herul, Heruli, Erilar, Vanir, Danir, Daner, Aesar, Aesir, Asir, Svear, Svea, Svie, Svioner, Svenonian, Urmane, Norge (Leleges, Carians, Pelasgians, Scandinavians, Varangians, Vikings, Swedes, Norwegians, Danes, Icelandics, Baltics, other related groups).

      The Japhetic people are, in general, the peoples of India and Europe (Indo-European stock), with which any demographer is familiar.

      5The Aryans first come into historical view about a thousand years before Christ, invading India and threatening Babylonia. Historians of old reference an Aryan chief called Cyaxeres, king of the Medes and Persians. The Medes and Persians seem to have been tribes of one nation, more or less united under the rule of Cyaxeres. Elam (son of Shem) is the ancient name for Persia. Elamites are synonymous with Persians. The Persians are thus descended from both Elam, the son of Shem, and from Madai, the son of Japheth. The Medes and Persians had settled in what is now modern Persia, the Medes in the north, the Persians in the south. The most notable Persians of today are the Iranians. Interestingly, the word Iran is a derivative of Aryan. The Medo-Persian people groups are divided into hundreds of clans, some sedentary and others nomadic. All speak Indo-European languages, and some groups have pronounced Mongoloid physical characteristics and cultural traits, derived from Mongolian invasions and subsequent cultural integration. An example today would be the Uzbeks of Uzbekistan, and remnant groups living in Afghanistan and parts of Central Asia.

      Looking at history, whichever region is considered, Africa, Europe, Australia, or America, the major migrations have always been from Asia. In every area of the world where Japhethites have subsequently settled, they have always been preceded by Hamites. This pattern applies in every continent. In early historic times the circumstance seems always to be true, the earliest fossil remains of man being Mongoloid or Negroid in character and in head shape, whereas those that came last belong to the family of Japheth (Caucasoid). When we study ancient history and technological achievements, which were in many ways the equal of, or superior of, much that we have today, we find Hamitic people showed an amazing adaptability to the world in which they founded, and carried to a high technological proficiency their societies. Their achievements were exploited by Japhetic and Semitic peoples, who became great scientific discoverers. The Hamitic migrations indicate they sought a way of life, not an understanding or a control of nature beyond what was immediately useful. A majority of Ham’s descendants were not negroid. Genesis 10:15-20 records that of the 32 descendants of Ham, four settled in unknown places, 23 settled in the Middle East and five settled in Africa. Archeologists tell us that no groups inhabiting the Middle East in Biblical times were negroid. Many had brown, red and white racial characteristics. Ham’s descendants appear to be the most varied of Noah’s lineage.

      Ham’s fourth born son was Canaan. Genesis 10:15-19 identifies a distinctive characteristic of the sons of Canaan: They liked to spread out. The Canaanites are specifically mentioned as migrating far and wide, “…and afterward the families of the Canaanites were spread abroad. The territory of the Canaanites extended from Sidon as you go toward Gerar, as far as Gaza; as you go toward Sodom and Gomorrah and Admah and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha.” History indicates they did have a propensity for sprawl. The descendants of Canaan would later make up the vast populations of Asia, Africa and the Western Hemisphere.

      Two of Canaan’s sons, Heth (Hittites) and Sin (Sinites), are presumed to be the progenitors of Chinese and Mongoloid stock. The Hittites were known as the Hatti or Chatti. In Egyptian monuments the Hittite peoples were depicted with prominent noses, full lips, high cheekbones, hairless faces, varying skin color from brown to yellowish and reddish, straight black hair and dark brown eyes. They battled the Egypitan armies of Ramses II in the 13 century B.C., then disappeared forever from history.
      The term Hittite in Cuneiform (the earliest form of writing invented by the Sumerians) appears as Khittae* representing a once powerful nation from the Far East known as the Khitai, also in Hebrew as Khettai, and has been preserved through the centuries in the more familiar term, Cathay. The Cathay were Mongoloids, considered a part of early Chinese stock. There are links between the known Hittites and Cathay, for example, their modes of dress, their shoes with turned-up toes, their manner of doing their hair in a pigtail, and so forth. Representations show them to have possessed high cheekbones, and craniologists have observed that they had common characteristics of Mongoloids.

      Sin (or Seni), a brother of Heth, has many occurrences in variant forms in the Far East. There is one significant feature concerning the likely mode of origin of Chinese civilization. The place most closely associated by the Chinese themselves with the origin of their civilization is the capital of Shensi, namely, Siang-fu (Father Sin). Siang-fu appears in Assyrian records as Sianu. Today, Siang-fu can be loosely translated, “Peace to the Western Capital of China.” The Chinese have a tradition that their first king, Fu-hi or Fohi (Chinese Noah), made his appearance on the Mountains of Chin, was surrounded by a rainbow after the world had been covered with water, and sacrificed animals to God (corresponding to the Genesis record). Sin himself was the third generation from Noah, a circumstance which would provide the right time interval for the formation of early Chinese culture. In addition, the Miao tribe of southwest China had a tradition similar to the Genesis account, even before they met Christian missionaries. According to their tradition, God destroyed the whole world by a flood because of the wickedness of man, and Nuah (Noah) the righteous man and his wife, their three sons, Lo Han (Ham), Lo Shen (Shem), and Jah-hu (Japheth) survived by building a very broad ship and taking on it pairs of animals.

      There is strong evidence that suggests early Chinese knew of the God of the Bible. There are accounts described in the “Shu Jing” (Book of History), compiled by Confucius, where it is recorded that Emperor Shun (ruled from about 2256 B.C. to 2205 B.C. when the first recorded dynasty began) that he worshiped and sacrificed a bull to “ShangDi.” ShangDi literally means “Heavenly Ruler.” Linguists point out that ShangDi, Creator-God of the Chinese, is the phonetic equivalent to El Shaddai, Creator-God of the Hebrews. About 700 B.C., the early Zhou pronunciation of ShangDi was “djanh-tigh” (Zhan-dai). The bull was sacrificed at an annual ceremony called a “Border Sacrifice,” a rite that did not end until 1911 when the last emperor was deposed. Additionally, recitations from the ancient rite parallel several Bible passages, including the creation account in Genesis. Scholars who have analyzed the most ancient forms of these pictographic Chinese writings (graphic symbols called ideograms), which date from before the time of Moses, have the entire story of creation, the temptation, the fall of man into sin, and God’s remedy for sin in the animal sacrifices, which pointed to the coming Savior, Jesus Christ. All the elements of the Genesis narrative are found recorded, and still in use, in Chinese character-writing. This confirms the idea that the ancient Chinese incorporated their early knowledge of Genesis into their written language.

      History has much to say about the descendants of Sin (Seni) who came from the Far East to trade. They were called Sinæ (Sin) by the Scythians. Ptolemy, a Greek astronomer, referred to China as the land of Sinim or Sinæ. Reference to the Sinim in Isaiah 49:12 notes they came “from afar,” specifically not from the north and not from the west. Arabs called China Sin, Chin, Mahachin, Machin. The Sinæ were spoken of as a people in the remotest parts of Asia. For the Sinæ, the most important town was Thinæ, a great trading emporium in western China. The city Thinæ is now known as Thsin or simply Tin, and it lies in the province of Shensi. Much of China was ruled by the Sino-Khitan Empire (960-1126 A.D.), which Beijing became the southern capital. The Sinæ became independent in western China, their princes reigning there for some 650 years before they finally gained dominion over the whole land.

      In the third century B.C., the dynasty of Tsin became supreme. The word Tsin itself came to have the meaning of purebred. This word was assumed as a title by the Manchu Emperors and is believed to have been changed into the form Tchina. From there the term was brought into Europe as China, probably from the Ch’in or Qin dynasty (255-206 B.C.). The Greek word for China is Kina (Latin is Sina). As well, Chinese and surrounding languages are part of the Sino-Tibetan language family. Years ago, American newspapers regularly carried headlines with reference to the conflict between the Chinese and Japanese in which the ancient name reappeared in its original form, the Sino-Japanese war. Sinology refers to the study of Chinese history.

      Isaiah 42:8 “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. Isaiah 44:6 “This is what the LORD says–Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. Isaiah 45:21 Declare what is to be, present it–let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Deuteronomy 4:35 You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other. Isaiah 41:4 Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD–with the first of them and with the last–I am he.” Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I saiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,

      Isaiah 45:6 so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD, and there is no other.

      Isaiah 48:12 “Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.

      Deutronomy 32:39 See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.

      The Lamb of God is the Lion of Judah, who roars and the creation trembles. His Name is Yeshua Ha Mashaiach, Adonia Elohim Tz’va’ot.

      • Jay says

        More of the same repeated nonsense from Mac. Mac is retroactively sticking people into one or the other Jewish mythology figures and saying that group came from this mythological figure. Nothing in the Torah or the Bible goes into the this depth. He passes his delusions off as history, but you go talk to a credible history department from a reputable university repeating Mac’s nonsense and you will be laughed at.

      • says

        @Mac Christianity has just incorporated the Jewish Myth that ‘Killing Lambs makes you sinless’.
        Here they ‘Jesus’ and gave him the name ‘Lamb of God’ to escape their sins and befool the masses.

        How can a sane man believe Killing decreases Sins? Killing simply increases sins

        Some of these obviously mythological events can be written off as misinterpretations, metaphors or Yahweh working in mysterious ways, but the fact that fictitious events happen all the way through the Bible lends credence to the idea that the Bible on a whole is mythology. If you don’t believe this then ask yourself how absurd the Bible would have to be before you would agree that it’s a myth? If Yahweh literally had sex with Mary, would that smack of mythology to you? If the Bible said Yahweh invented rainbows the day after Jesus died, would that smack of mythology to you? If the Bible said a man lived in the belly of a talking donkey for forty days would that smack of mythology to you? If the Bible said Jesus had a stand-off with another religion to see who could call down fire on the other on their opponent to prove who worshiped the one true god, would that smack of mythology to you?

        Christians point to human sacrifices, talking animals, magic and scientifically inaccurate statements in other “religions” to prove they’re mythologies. Yet when Christianity does the exact same thing they turn a blind eye. That’s called denial. By Christians’ own standards, Christianity is mythology.

  21. Satyen says

    Krishnarao jee,

    Namaste. I bow before you for your humility displaying the characteristic of a Vedic follower. Non of us are perfect and I am definitely one of them.

    For your second paragraph, I could agree onlypartially. Puranas along with the Ramayan and Mahabharat, has retained some of the Vedic teachings at for the last two millenia. The problem is people have hardly read them or heard them. And we should not forget that Rana Pratap, Chhatrapati Shivajee, Chhatrasaal, Vikramaditya, Lakshmibai etc. were brought up by the Vedic teachings gleaned from the Mahabharat and the Ramayan. Raam, Krishn, Arjun Hanumaan, Seeta, Anusuyaa, Damayanti etc. had been the role models of many of the enlightened personalities. Of course care must be taken as they have definitely been changed due to vested interests over the centuries. I will give you one example. I thank Zakir Bhai to bring the Bhavishya Puraan before the masses. It also brought the warning to the Bharteeyas about Muhammad and his entourage and its intention. The problem was people didn’t care it and propagated that all the religions are the same – against the Bhavishya Puraan. In short, my stand is accept the puraanas in the light of the Vedas and as long as it’s not against the Vedic teachings.

    At last Let’s agree to disagree on a few minor issues with our sole goal of spreading the Vedic teaching and destroying the fanatic philosophy that spreads hatred. This small difference will not deter us from achieving the goal of making the whole world a great family.
    Again a beautiful Shlok from the Geeta:

    Sadrisham chestate svasyaah, Prakriteh Jnanvaanapi
    Prakitim yaanti bhutaani, Nigraham kim karishyati.

    Everyone including the intellectuals follow their nature. As all the creatures are behaving according to their samskars accumulated from the previous births, just admonishing won’t work.

    Pranaam

  22. Satyen says

    Krishna Rao jee,
    Thanks for accepting the differences of opinion. But at the same time you must accept our oneness of goal and the support of the cause. I am not going to indulge in debate with a Vedic follower as I consider myself a Vedic follower and would like to live for its cause. But I need to clarify two points:

    Probably due to the ambuguity of my presentation, you seem to have misunderstod me. I don’t believe the Puraanas due to the case of Bhavishya puraan. The case was presented to you to highlight how Zakir Bhai befools us even at our winning points because we don’t know even simple facts. Bhavishya puraan seems to warn us against Islaam but ironically it is used as the weapon to spread Islaam!

    I had seen a video a fairly educated woman displayed her disliking of Islaam to Zakir Naik due to the approval of polygamous practices in Islaam. Z.K grabbed the opportunity and simply asked the number of wives of Krishna. Needless to say, the lady was ashamed and all her charm turned int gloomy. She didn’t know that Naarad jee had also the curiosity how Krishna jee lives with so many wives and took a journey to the earth. He found that Krishnajee had taken as many forms as his wives and thus living a monogamous life. I mean, each of his wives had a krishna for all the time. If it seems unplausable, the case of marrying more than 16000 women is equally unplausable. This incident is narrated in Bhagvat puraan which the most common among the Hindu masses but people don’t know them.

    Let’s stop here and focus on spreading the Vedic teaching and love for the humanity. By the way, my core belief system is derived from the Vedas and the great Paatanjal Yog Darshan. Also, I am aware of Arya Samaj’s beliefs as I have already read the whole of Satyaartha Prakaash from cover to cover.

    Pranaam to the divinity residing in you and inspiring for propagating love and truth for the whole of universe.

    • krishnarao says

      Namaste Satyen,

      “But at the same time you must accept our oneness of goal and the support of the cause.”
      – Agreed……

      Puranas is an area we will not agree on. But we do have some fundamental areas we do agree on. Like the four things that link all Dharmic people as mentioned by Rajiv Malhotra. And we do need to unite to take on the forces that wish to wipe out Dharmic people and their faith. There will always be different opinions among us Dharmic people, but we should be able address those difference, respect all of our dharmic people and still be able to express our differences. And I think you and I have done that here. And now it is time for unity and focus on the cause of propagating Vedic teachings and defending ourselves.

      Dhanyavad,
      Krishna

      • Satyen says

        Krishna Rao jee,
        Absolutely, we must defend and propagate the Vedic Dharma far and wide. The characteristic of the Vedas is its ability to bind everybody by love and bliss without any malice.
        Charactristics of Dharma:
        Dhritih kshama damo aasteyam, Shaucham indriyanigrahah
        Dheeh vidya satyam akrodho, Dashakam dharma lakshanam
        (Manusmriti)

    • Mac says

      Does God need a wife or wives??? Woman means “taken from man”, she is God’s creation. How come He needs a wife? Is it for sex or reproduction???

  23. Mac says

    Ram-Sin was the ancestor of King Darius the Great. He was a Medes, who was called a Persian, who lived with Elamites. Immediately after seizing the kingship, Darius I of Persia (son of Hystaspes) married Atossa (daughter of Cyrus the Great). They were both descendants of Achaemenes from different Achaemenid lines. Marrying a daughter of Cyrus strengthened Darius’s position as king. Ashusaures (Xerxes) was crowned and succeeded his father in October–December 486 BC when he was about 36 years old. The transition of power to Xerxes was smooth due again in part to the great authority of Atossa and his accession of royal power was not challenged by any person at court or in the Achaemenian family, or any subject nation. Ashusaures’ Queen was Vashathi. Ashusaures later married Esther, who became his queen. Esther 1:1-3 clearly mentions, Ashusaures’ reigned from Ethiopia to India i.e. Northwest India, rest of India was not populated during his reign. So, Ramayan is nothing but a poetic mythology of ancestral worship. Ram-Sin the ancestor of Darius reigned 60 years and was a good king and his arch enemy was Hammurabi (Amorites), who also gave law code, who is the mythothological legend Ravana of Mahabharat. Also, Bharat was the descendent of Ram-Sin. Hammurabi is a babylonian king. All the descendents of Noah’s three sons lived in Ur, Iraq where they were building a tower of Babel (confusion) under the guardianship of King Nimrod the great. As the Bible notes, there were 70 tribes (nations) into existence thru the 3 sons of Noah, viz.Shem, Ham and Japheth. Rest is mythology as ancestor worship, star worship, sun and moon worship is common among the idolators even today. There were 300 such major gods and goddesses were worshipped when Abraham was alive. There was much evil of idolatry and local demon worship. Even Abraham’s father Terah who was a courtyard in King Nimrod’s court had 10 terafims (walking talking idols of demons), whom Abraham destroyed. Allah was also an Egyptian god worshipped before Mohummad, his name was Ililul means crescent. Mohummad even cited the rest of the Allah’s family in what were later dubbed as Satanic verses Surah 53.19-20. Al Lat, the sun being the moon god Allah’s wife and Al Uzza and Al Manat were planets/stars venerated to be the daughters of Allah the moon god. As the Ramayana shows, there cannot be any doubt about Rama’s presence in Haryana, Punjab, Sindh and Afghanistan but due to the difficulty of deciphering Indus writing Rama’s presence in the Indus area remains unknown. However, that Rama was far from a mere ‘tribal hero’ as described by Basham and Thapar can be seen from many ancient documents. The famous Orientalist I. M. Diakonoff gave the significant clue that names of ancient Medians often included the affix Rama, [xiv] in preference to common deities like Mitra, Ahura Mazda etc.. T. Cuyler Young, an eminent Iranologist who has written on the history and archaeology of early Iran in the Cambridge Ancient History and the encyclopedia Britannica, writes [xv] that one can look for early Hindu and Sanskrit connection outside of the sub-continent. `Ram’ was a sacred name in pre-Islamic Iran; Arya Ram-anna was an early ancestor of Darius-I whose gold tablet is an early document in Old Persian; Ram is an important name in the Zoroastrian calendar; the Ram Yast is devoted to Rama and Vayu, possibly an echo of Hanuman; many Rama-names occur in Persepolis tablets. Ram Bazrang is the name of a Kurdish tribe of Fars. Frye lists [xvi] many Sasanian cities with Ram-names: Ram Ardashir, Ram Hormuzd, Ram Peroz, Rema and Rumagam. Ram-Sahristan was the famed capital of the Surens. Ram-alla is a town on the Euphrates and also in Palestine. Fortunately, a study of Sumerian history provides a fairly vivid flesh-and-blood picture of Rama. The highly authentic Sumerian King-list appear such hallowed names as Bharat (Warad) Sin and Rim Sin. Sin was the Moon god Chandra and as the cuneiform symbol for ‘Rim’ can also be read as ‘Ram’, Rim Sin is the same as Rama Chandra. In the Sumerian texts Ram-Sin is said to be from Elam which links him to Indo-Iran. Rama was the longest reigning monarch of Mesopotamia who ruled for 60 years. Bharat Sin ruled for 12 years (1834-1822 BC), exactly as stated in the Dasaratha Jataka. The Jataka statement, “Years sixty times hundred, and ten thousand more, all told, / Reigned strong-armed Rama”, only means that Rama reigned for sixty years which agrees exactly with the data of Assyriologists. Ayodhya may be Agade the capital of Sargon which has not yet been identified. It is possible that Agade was near Der or the Heart near Harayu or Sarayu. Learned scholars like D. P. Mishra were aware that Rama could be from the Herat area. The noted linguist Sukumar Sen also noted that Rama is a sacred name in the Avesta where he is mentioned together with Vayu. Rama is called Rama Margaveya in some texts from which Dr. Sen concluded that he hailed from Margiana. The Cambridge Ancient History contains priceless information relevant to Indian ancient history. The Sumerian records furnish the first date of the Indus era – the war with Ravana took place in 1794 BC. The significance of the fact Ram-Sin’s reign (60 years) was the longest in Sumerian history has been lost on most writers. There are two Ram-Sins in Sumerian history. Jesus Christ has given a parable of good Sumarean in NT. They were all Elamites (we know Tamil Elam, means ancestor’s homeland). Elam means eternity, eldest son of Shem (means the royal one), eldest son of Noah. Also, as per the Book of Jubilee, when Noah divided the earth in three portions for his three sons and their sons to their sons, Elam got from red sea down to all India of today in his portion by lot. This is where his descendents lived. Although, according to historians like R. Thapar, the Bible is irrelevant in Indian history, a careful study of it provides invaluable information about Raghupati Rama (Laghumal) that help in unraveling the ‘dark backward and abysm of time’. A Genesis story in the Old Testament runs as follows:

    “At that time Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Kedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal, king of Goyim went to war against Bera king of Sodom, Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar). ”

    Amraphel is interpreted by most scholars as a contraction of Hammurabi-ilu but the names of Arioch king of Larsa and Kedorlaomer king of Elam need careful study. The name seems to correspond to Kudur-lahgumal which occurs in three late Babylonian legends, one of which is in poetical form. Besides Kudur-lahgumal, two of these tablets also mention Eri-Aku, son of Durmah-ilani, and one of them refers to Tudhul(a) or Tidal which prove the veracity of the Biblical tradition. The name Durmah is an echo of Dharma and cannot but be related to Indian history. Kudur Mabuk is frequently described in the literature as a tribal Shaikh which is sadly inappropriate. The term Shaikh should more appropriately be replaced by Saka which links him to the Indo-Iranians or Indo-Aryans. This is related to the fact that Gotama Buddha was called a Shakya. This must be the reason why the Buddhists considered Rama as their hero although scholars like Sir Harold Bailey have ascribed this to pure opportunism. The term Mabuk also appears to be related to the epithet Mahabhaga. It may be mentioned that Gotama was called a Bhagava which corresponds to the Babylonian title of Bagapa. This sheds light on the significance of the name Durmah-ilani. The name Tusratta of some later Mitannian kings appears to be an echo of Dasaratha. Margaret S. Drower translates Tusratta’s name ‘owner of terrible chariots’ but it may in fact be ‘Owner of Ten Chariots’ or ‘Ten-fold Chariots’, echoing Dasratha’s name. Dasaratha may have led a confederacy of ten kings. The name has echoes in the later names like Aryaratha. RAM is not a god, he is just a historical king descendent of Elam nothing more and Hummurabi King is Ravana master of vedas (10 heads of scholors of vedas), an Amorite and a king of babylon. India was not fully populated then. It started urbanization from Chadragupta’s time, until then only most portions of Gujarat of today and basically northwest was populated at that time. Vedas are the teachings of fallen angels of Noah’s flood time. Madai’s (Medes people) grandson found an inscription written on stones, the teachings of nephilims (half angels and half humans, giants) and gods of idolators of today, who died in Noah’s flood. He hide the writtings after he copied it and never told Noah and his father and brothers because of the fear, it was the teachings of fallen angels. Later on, it was passed for generations in verbal form mostly and some of his descendents wrote rig veda. Book of Enoch mentions the whole incident of the old and Book of Jubilee mentions more details. Its idolatry, which God hates and brings darkness both inside and outside and His wrath.

    • Krishnarao says

      Every religion in the world has a flood story. If anything noah copied the Hindus. And added some rediculous 2 animal be. There is no way to put two animals of every kind on a boat. Science shows it is made up . There are to many and it would take thousands of years to load them all.

      • Mac says

        Scriptures say each pair according to its kind. Like dog family will include all kinds of dogs, wolves and foxes. These are the types of evolutions:
        1. Cosmic Evolution: The origin of time, space and matter, by the Big Bang

        2. Chemical Evolution: The origin of higher elements from hydrogen.

        3. Stellar and Planetary Evolution: The origin of stars and planets.

        4. Organic Evolution: The origin of Life.

        5. Macro-Evolution: The changing from one kind of species to another kind of species.

        6. Micro-Evolution: The variation within kinds of species.

        The first 5 are merely stupid. 6th type of evolution is what bible states. I can prove the first 5 as stupid. That is another subject.

        • Jay says

          Mac here is repeating Kent Hovind nonsense straight from one of his lectures. For those of you who do not know, this Hovind guy is poser, pretending to be a scientist but one with no degree from any scienctific institution of any credibility, and also he was charges with 58 charges and is now in prison in the US sentenced for 10 years. Mac thinks you won’t find this out, and question what he posts. http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/03/17/kent-hovind-is-still-in-jail-a/

        • says

          Yahweh is the personification of the ancient Jew’s primitive values. Notice that Yahweh is a “He” just like the ruling class of the Jewish theocracy. Does Yahweh really have a penis or did the people who created Yahweh in their image have penises? Did Yahweh really have swords in the Garden of Eden before the Bronze Age or did the people who invented Yahweh have swords before they invented Yahweh?

          Aside from what Yahweh was, study what Yahweh commanded. Does Yahweh really want us to kill disobedient children, own slaves, buy and sell wives or stone people for having sex outside of the traditional Jewish mating rituals? Does the creator and sustainer of the universe really see premature ejaculation or wet dreams as punishable offenses or does that sound like something people from a primitive culture would say?

      • Mac says

        My wise pandit, Rig veda states that one needs to worship all the 33 crore gods and goddesses once in his life time. Now tell me, do you know 33 crore names of your gods and goddesses?

        Remember a human mind has the capacity to store upto 13 lacs of words, one more in another out.

        Now tell me, what would be your position, if you fail to worship each of those 33 crore gods and goddesses atleast once in your life time? Most probably you may end up in the next stage of your life cycle and have to finish the whole life cycle taking billions of forms of lives before you get another chance to get a human life. Why dont you buy a bicycle! It would be much faster to complete the life cycle!

        • Ankur says

          @Mac : The problem with parasitic people like you is that you start preaching that you have no hold on.

          the 33 Koti Devtas find Mention in Atharva and not Rik ved

          Koti does not mean “Crore” problem with Indian bread and brainwashed converted Christians.

          “Yasya Trayastrinshad Devaa Ange Sarve Samaahitaa, Skamma Tam Bruhi Katamah Swideva Sah”. ~(Atharva Veda 10-7-13)

          They are: 8-Vasu, 11-Rudra, and 12-Aaditya, 1-Indra and 1-Prajaapati.

          8 Vasus are: Earth, Water, Fire, Air, Ether, Moon, Sun, and Star. They are called Vasus, because they are abode of all that lives, moves or exists.

          11 Rudras: The ten Pranas (Praana, Apaana, Vyaana, Samaana, Udaana, Naag, Kurma, Krikal, Devadutta and Dhananjaya) i.e. nervauric forces which live in the human body. The eleventh is the human soul. These are called ‘Rudras’ because when they desert the body, it becomes dead and the relations of the deceased, consequently, begin to weep. Rudra means one who makes a person to weep.

          12 Adityaas —the twelve months of a year called Adityaas, they cause the lapse of the term of existence of each object or being.

          1 Indra which is also known as the (all-pervading) electricity, as it is productive of great force.

          1 Prajaapati , also called the “Yajna” because it benefits mankind by the purification of air, water, rain and vegetables and because it aids the development of various arts, and in it the honor is accorded to the learned and the wise.

          • Mac says

            You also know whether I am converted or not! Your comment is so mythically philosophical. Can U just tell me who wrote Athurva veda and in which year and under what circumstance? So that I may believe its authenticity, U call it truth.

            Also, give me the verse, who created and claims the creation.

          • Jay says

            No one can tell who wrote or exactly when the 5 Torah books were written. They were written over centuries by various authors is a good as it gets. This is understood by real universities such as Harvard and Yale.

          • Ankur says

            @Mac : I just seems you have a peanut sized brain where in you cannot understand simple English and you are not substantiating any of your arguments that were refuted by me , you are still continuing with the 33 crore thing. you are an insult to intelligence and Analytic Approach.
            Your are preaching here what Vedas are … when i KNOW what they are and what is their origin.
            Ok now lets settle it , but first you go and read the articles under (what Veda is)

            http://agniveer.com/category/vedas/technical/

            so that you know what you are up against, then we will settle it, Only then you are fit to debate here, i have nothing against Christianity but as you are trying to make a point against Veda so we have to set things right..

          • Mac says

            It says: Ishwar gave vedas. Vedas were not written. They were illuminated in the minds of Rishis and thereafter, those Rishis taught it to Brahma. See how you analyze the below stuff.

            “Shatpath Brahman 14.5.4.10 states that Ishwar, who is present even beyond the Akash/Sky created the Vedas. The way breath goes out of body and then comes in, during inception of creation, Ishwar creates the Vedas and illuminates the world, and in the phase of dissolution (Pralay), Vedas no more remain in world. However just as a sapling remains inside the seed, Vedas still remain in knowledge of Ishwar, unchanged.

            Shankaracharya writes in commentary on Geeta 3.15 that Vedas are actually never created or destroyed. They merely get illuminated and de-illuminated but remain in Ishwar.

            WAS this Sankaracharya present with those Rishis during inception? How does he know?

            Rigveda 10.190.3 states that the creation remains same in all cycles and hence even the constitution of the creation – the Vedas – also remain exactly the same.”

            Now, this philosophy of guess work do not prove the authenticity of vedas. Your above portion from the Agniveer technical page states that there was a “Pralay” and “Vedas no more remain in the world”. It means they were destroyed. This confirms Noah’s flood account and Book of Jubilees account of Kâinâm finding the inscriptions of the teachings of the fallen angels of Noah’s time.

            (A Jubilee year is 49 years and a week is 7 years. This account is after the Noah’s flood.)

            Book of Jubilees “VIII. In the twenty-ninth jubilee, in the first week, in the beginning thereof Arpachshad took to himself a wife and her name was Râsû’ĕjâ, [the daughter of Sûsân,] the daughter of Elam, and she bare him a son in the third year in this week, and he called his name Kâinâm. 5 2. And the son grew, and his father taught
            him writing, and he went to seek for himself a place where he might seize for himself a city. 3. And he found a writing which former (generations) had carved on the rock, and he read what was thereon, and he transcribed it and sinned owing to it; for it contained the teachings of the Watchers (fallen angels) in accordance with which they used to observe the omens of the sun and moon and stars in all the signs of heaven. 1 4. And he wrote it down and said nothing regarding it; for he was afraid to speak to Noah about it lest he should be angry with him on account of it.”

            Still, the question remains who wrote your vedas as it was given by Ishwar? And, who is this Ishwar?

            I am going to also quote you what really happened after the flood from the same book.

            The History of the Patriarchs from Reu to Abraham (cf. Gen. xi, 20-30);
            the Corruption of the Human Race (xi. 1-15)

            XI. And in the thirty-fifth jubilee, in the third week (i.e. 1681 A.M [Anno Mundi means Year from Creation]), in the first year thereof, Reu took to himself a wife, and her name was ’Ôrâ, the daughter of ’Ûr, the son of Kêsêd, and she bare him a son, and he called his name Sêrug, in the seventh year of this week in this jubilee. 2. 2 And the sons of Noah began to war on each other, to take captive and to slay each other, and to shed the blood of men on the earth, and to eat blood, and to build strong cities, and walls, and towers, and individuals (began) to exalt themselves above the nation, 3 and to found the beginnings of kingdoms, and to go to war people against people, and nation against nation, and city against city, and all (began) to do evil, and to acquire arms, and to teach their sons war, and they began to capture cities, and to sell male and female slaves. 3. And ’Ûr, the son of Kêsêd, 4 built the city of ’Arâ 5 of the Chaldees, and called its name after his own name and the name of his father. 4. And they made for themselves molten images, and they worshipped each the idol, the molten image which they had made for themselves, and they began to make graven images and unclean simulacra, and malignant spirits (demons) assisted and seduced (them) into committing transgression and uncleanness. 5. And the prince Mastêmâ (Chief of Dark Angels) exerted himself to do all this, and he sent forth other spirits, those which were put under his hand, to do all manner of wrong and sin, and all manner of transgression, to corrupt and destroy, and to shed blood upon the earth. 1 6. For this reason he called the name of Sêrug, Serug, for every one turned to do all manner of sin and transgression. 7. And he grew up, and dwelt in Ur of the Chaldees, near to the father of his wife’s mother, and he worshipped idols, and he took to himself a wife in the thirty-sixth jubilee, in the fifth week, in the first year thereof, and her name was Mêlkâ, 2 the daughter of Kâbêr, the daughter of his father’s brother. 8. And she bare him Nahor, in the first year of this week, and he grew and dwelt in Ur of the Chaldees, and his father taught him the researches of the Chaldees to divine and augur, according to the signs of heaven. 9. And in the thirty-seventh jubilee, in the sixth week, in the first year thereof, he took to himself a wife, and her name was ’Îjâskâ, 3 the daughter of Nêstâg of the Chaldees. 10. And she bare him Terah 4 in the seventh year of this week. 11. And the prince Mastêmâ sent ravens and birds to devour the seed which was sown in the land, in order to destroy the land, and rob the children of men of their labours. Before they could plough in the seed, the ravens picked (it) from the surface of the ground. 12. And for this reason he called his name Terah, because the ravens and the birds reduced them to destitution and devoured their seed. 5 13. And the years began to be barren, owing to the birds, and they devoured all the fruit of the trees from the trees: it was only with great effort that they could save a little of all the fruit of the earth in their days. 14. And in this thirty-ninth jubilee, in the second week in the first year, Terah took to himself a wife, and her name was ’Êdnâ, 1 the daughter of ’Abrâm 2 the daughter of his father’ssister. 15. And in the seventh year of this week she bare him a son, and he called his name Abram, by the name of the father of his mother;

          • Mac says

            Idolatry is evil. Demons are the leftover spirits of giants, children of fallen angels, teachers of your socalled vedas. God destroyed them all of your gods whom you worship. But by your chants and mantras you are trying to invoke their names. Satan is the father of lies. He was a lier since the beginning as Jesus says.

            You are blinded by those leftover spirits of giants called demons. Idolatry is demon worship. The whole world was into idolatry until Jesus came, whereas Greeks and the rest of the world forsook local demon worship, U R STILL INTO IT.

            So blinded that you dont even care to consider that the images and idols you worship are made by skilled labour, manmade gods. If it falls and breaks, you throw your broken gods away in garbage. You have 33 kotis each is counted a group of 10 million gods you have to worship before you die. You know nothing matches your scriptures. Your scriptures disagrees internally forget about external agreements. U R not sure whether U R a monotheistic or polytheistic.

            You are talking and glorifying local myths and folklores of legends as truth, U must be out of your mind.

          • Jay says

            You are so demented. The only thing worth reading of your post is to see the depth of Christian demonization and ugly disrespect to all other religions, and vile religious bigotry that you pass off as your faith. How sick and twisted that you refer to other faiths as demon worship for the sole reason it is not your faith and your idea of god. You stupidly think the whole world has to the Jewish mythologies and everything outside your narrow limited Jewish mythologies is bad. This is the dark bigoted hatefilled view Christianity teaches. You are an ugly bigot and it is pathetic that you pass your bigotry and demonization as faith.

          • Mac says

            The whole reason God gave Bible is that there came demons after Noah’s flood and misled people. Idolatry is local demon worship. God is telling all thru in the bible to stay away from local demon worship, otherwise His judgement will befall.

            Christianity is not a religion. In the beginning it was called THE WAY. The only Way to reach God and there is no other way, no shortcuts.

            John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the WAY and the TRUTH and the LIFE. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

          • says

            Think about it. Who wrote the Old Testament? It was written by people who believed that women were inherently unclean when they were on their period and couldn’t be touched. It was written by people who wanted an excuse to take the best land in the region from the natives who already lived there. It was written by people who believed in magic, demons, curses and even other gods. It wasn’t a typo that the Ten Commandments says, “Though shalt have no other Gods before me.” and “I am a jealous God.” Yahweh didn’t say to worship him because he’s the only God. He said to worship him because he’s jealous. Why does the creator of the universe want his followers to cut off the foreskins he gave them or grow their sideburns? It doesn’t make any sense. It’s almost seems like Yahweh is some kind of ancient tribal leader. It almost seems like that because he was made up by ancient tribal leaders just like all the rest of the Gods our ancestors worshiped.

            The Bible proves itself to be a projection of the writer’s pre-existing values again in the New Testament. Yahweh didn’t change his nature or his mind between the time of Abraham and Jesus. The Jewish culture evolved naturally over thousands of years until its nomadic, barbaric origins were incompatible with its new urban, culturally diverse values. Unsurprisingly, a new hero appeared at that time and said Yahweh’s nature had changed to reflect the Jewish people’s new hopes and dreams for salvation from the Romans. And that hero was unsurprisingly born of a virgin on a day of astrological significance who went on to die and rise from the dead after three days…a common pattern in textbook mythology. And even though Jesus changed a lot of rules, he still approved of slavery. That’s not because the creator of the universe approves of slavery. That’s because the human beings who wrote the Bible approved of slavery.

        • krishnarao says

          You really want to go down this direction. As I said last time you didn’t do proper research of Dharmic people. Give me the Name of the person who translated the Rig Veda you claim to state from. Give me the organization that supports that person. Give me the publisher. I want to know which Hindu group endorsed it. You show ZERO proof and make claims. I have a copy of the Reg Veda endorsed by Arya Samaj and no where does it say “worship all the 33 crore gods and goddesse.” I can just make up shit too. It’s your Christian religion that tells you to enslave black people. Wait, that isn’t made up, it is actually supported by your religion.

          • Mac says

            Why dont you give me the proof of the authenticity of Rig veda yourself? It is your scriptures, isnt it, not mine!

            Tell me why should I believe your blindfaith which is not researched, proved or authenticated, just novels and poetries of whims of village idiots.

          • Jay says

            Versus what the village idiots of Middle Eastern Jews and their myths, written by countless unnamed people over centuries with its fantastical stories? So blinded are you to your your own blind faith. Sad. No one cares to convert you. That is the difference between obsessed proselytizers of the Jewish faiths, versus all other faiths that do not need the whole world to believe like they do.

          • Jay says

            Here is a book of the sources of the Biblical myths from far more ancient religions “The Secret Origins of the Bible” http://atheistmovies.blogspot.com/2010/06/secret-origins-of-bible-tim-callahan.html

            “This book demonstrates that the stories and themes of the Bible were part of the great mythic systems of the ancient world by u sing comparative mythology, tell tale verses in the Bible and archaeology. The abstract God of modern monotheistic Judaism, Christianity and Islam is a comparatively recent creation. In later times the myth of a messianic deliverer was combined with that of the pagan god-man who suffered a horrible, excruciating death but was physically resurrected to produce the Christ myth.”

          • Jay says

            Here is another on the ancient Gods as the source for the Jesus myth “The Jesus Mysteries: Was the “Original Jesus” a Pagan God? – Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy

            “The authors postulate that Christianity as we know it, regardless of the teachings of its founder, ultimately distilled and usurped the greatest wisdom inherent in pagan traditions. Specifically, they charge that Christianity looted the traditions of the Osiris/Dionysus cults–borrowing, synthesizing and domesticating what was most sacred to Greco-Roman civilization. Freke and Gandy assert that Christian history is “nothing less than the greatest cover-up of all time. Publishers Weekly” http://atheistmovies.blogspot.com/2009/03/jesus-mysteries-was-original-jesus.html

          • Jay says

            And also this book ” The Pagan Christ (2007)

            There are 2.1 billion Christians on the planet – roughly one third of the entire human population. At the heart of their religion is the New Testament and the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. To Christianity, the written word is the glue that binds the faith of its followers.

            So, what if it could be proven that Jesus never existed? What if there was evidence that every word of the New Testament – the cornerstone of Christianity – is based on myth and metaphor?

            Based on Tom Harpur’s national bestseller, The Pagan Christ examines these very questions. During his research, Harpur discovered that the New Testament is wholly based on Egyptian mythology, that Jesus Christ never lived, and that – indeed – the text was always meant to be read allegorically. It was the founders of the Church who duped the world into taking a literal approach to the scriptures. And, according to Harpur, this was their fatal error – and the very reason Christianity is struggling today.” http://atheistmovies.blogspot.com/2008/12/pagan-christ.html

          • Mac says

            Jesus Christ is a historical figure, even His enemies confirm it. Let us see what these two world famous historians of all time say about Jesus Christ.

            Besides, Talmud mentions Jesus.

            Flavius Josephus’ Life (37- ca 100 C.E.)
            The short passage concerning Jesus in book XVIII of Josephus’s Antiquities of the Jews is
            labeled Testimonium Flavianum (Flavian Testimony) and remains a center of interest since
            antiquity. However, this text is closely related to two other texts concerning James, the presumed
            brother of Jesus, and John the Baptist known from the Gospel stories.

            They were considered until the sixteenth century as unquestionable
            extrabiblical evidence for the historicity of Jesus as he is presented in the Gospels. For that
            reason Josephus was the most widely read Greek-language historian in medieval and modern
            times

            The paragraph is inserted between a story of how Pontius Pilate, Roman procurator between the years
            26 and 36 C.E., suppressed a Jewish riot against the construction of an aqueduct with the temple
            tax money and the story of a subterfuge used by a citizen in Rome to seduce a Roman matron
            through the intermediary of the priests of the Isis temple. The English translation by William
            Whiston reads:
            Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a
            man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the
            truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many Jews and many of the
            Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal
            men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first
            did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the
            divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things
            concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at
            this day.

            This is clearly a Christian text, in addition it reflects the later, second century assumption about
            Jesus:
            1. It positively asserts that Jesus, though a man, is a supernatural figure. This was not so
            assertively stated anywhere in the New Testament writings. Rather this opinion was
            established at the end of the first century and the beginning of the second.
            2. His supernatural power was confirmed by his ability to perform “wonderful works,” i.e.,
            miracles.
            3. He was a “teacher” and what he taught was the “truth.” Therefore, the author of this
            statement denied truthfulness of any other teaching, especially Jewish in the historical
            context of his life. It is reminiscent of 2 Thess. 2:13.
            4. He attracted many Jews and many Greeks, and in the historical context of his epoch it would be a correct statement.
            5. He positively and categorically was identified as the Messiah/Christ. The formulation
            implies that this was the belief of the writer. The term, however, was not well defined in
            early Christian thought and its Jewish meaning was of an earthly human who was
            charged with a special political mission.
            6. He was condemned to be crucified by the Roman procurator Pilate, though through
            evidence presented by the Jewish leaders.
            7. There is a positive statement that he appeared alive to his disciples on the third day after
            the crucifixion.
            8. All this concerning Jesus was predicted by the prophets.
            9. Christians, his followers named after him, still exist.

            Herodotus
            According to the Illustrated Encyclopedia of the Classical World “Few historians have equaled Herodotus as writers.he accomplished an attractive history, swiftly told and read, with fascinating character portrayals, dramatic passages and moments of insight into the deep forces of human life.” 1 Herodotus was the first man to use investigation and research to write history. For this reason he has been dubbed the “father of history.” He is known for his Histories, in which he tells about the history, customs and people of the lands he visited. The main theme of his work is the conflict between East and West. Besides being the first historical work written using research, it is important as the first long work in Greek prose and is confirmation the historical reliability of the Bible.

            Although Herodtus demonstrated an amazing degree of neutrality, showing very little of the usual Greek bias, there was another historian that lived 1000 years eariler that reported with even better acuracy. Herodotus wrote broad and informative descriptions of ancient Near East cultures. In one of those cultures lived Moses who wrote what is known as the Hebrew Torah. It traces the history of humanity back to the begining and then focuses on the family of Abraham (which grew into many nations including today’s Arabs and Jews). The vibrant and intriguing narrative of Moses takes the reader through the Exodus from Egypt without pretense to hide any blemishes in persons or culture. Although Herodotus was the first great European historian, Moses stands alone in the annals of world history for his meekness and honest reporting of a nation’s response to their God. In geography, history, and flowing literature, Moses is obviously an inspired author. Cicero labled Herodotus the “father of history”. Jews, Christians, and Muslims recognize Moses as the man who spoke with the real Father of history, the Alpha and Omega.

            After the fall of Babylon, the Hebrews were under Persian control for two centuries. Cyrus, a benevolent Persian monarch, had issued a decree that allowed the Jews to return to their homeland to rebuild their temple. The construction project was initiated but it eventually fell into disarray. Finally, after more than fifteen years, the work was resumed. There was, however, at first, mild opposition.
            Did the Jews have regal authority for the project? A search was made for Cyrus’ original decree of authorization. When the document was located, oddly, it was not found in Babylon or Susa, as might be expected, since this was where the Persian kings usually resided, but in Achmetha (Ecbatana) in the province of the Medes (Ezra 6:2).
            There is a passage in Herodotus, however, which appears to indicate that, contrary to the usual custom, Cyrus held his court in Ecbatana, hence, kept his archives there (i.153). As Professor George Rawlinson of Oxford University observed, “this is one of those little points of agreement between the sacred and the profane which are important because their very minuteness is an indication that they are purely casual and unintentional” (1873, 196).
            When the original document of Cyrus was located, Darius, the then-reigning monarch, issued a decree authorizing the resumption of work on the temple, even providing expense money from “tribute” collected in the provinces “beyond the [Euphrates] river” (Ezra 6:8). According to Herodotus, Darius was the first Persian king to extract such tribute money (iii.89). Moreover, the king warned that if any should alter his decree, “let a beam be pulled out from his house, and let him be lifted up and fastened thereon” (Ezra 6:11). This was no idle threat, for, as Herodotus records, at the second conquest of Babylon, Darius crucified about three thousand citizens of the city (iii.159).
            In the book of Esther one learns that the maidens of the royal harem could only go unto the king when their “turn” came (Esther 1:12), and any violation of this procedure could incur the death penalty (4:11). Herodotus says: “In Persia a man’s wives sleep with him in their turns” (iii.69), and invasion of the king’s privacy was punishable by death (iii.72, 77).
            Mordecai, Esther’s cousin, had foiled a plot against the life of king Ahasuerus (Esther 2:21-22), and an account of that act of patriotism had been written in “the book of records” (6:1). Herodotus records that in Persia a list of “the king’s benefactors” was maintained with a view of returning such kindnesses (viii.85).

          • krishnarao says

            This isn’t about me, this is about you running around and claiming your book is this historical accurate book. So don’t try and run away from what the bible really is. It is a made up book during the council of nicea. Very simple fact big boy wearing diapers. And the actual person who saw of the creation of it was you best friend constantine. These are actual facts about what happened. And what happened to the people who did not agree or had other books, yup, that’s right bitch, your lover Constatine murdered them all.

            Face the facts. Your boy, had brought in Christians with different stories of the Bible and they were forced to defend their books. The people who supported the books that were put into the bible lived, and the people who supported the books that were not put in the bible were put to death. You follow the Romain interpretation of the bible big bad boy. Basically you are promoting European inculturation of Christianity. You sick dumb freak.

            And in regards to the Vedas. I don’t believe anything is the word of God. I believe the Vedas were the inspired word of God. I believe it was put together by many people who were enlightened and shared their experience and put their combined experience in the Vedas. It is clear when in the Vedas the word “We” is used. And believe it means “we” as the group of enlightened group of people. And this idea is not just shared by me, but also many scholars.

          • Mac says

            Again, Old Testament was already there before Jesus came. New Testament, the Gospel was cannonized in Nicea after thorough research and was proved accurate. 40 authors wrote the bible over a period of 1600 years and almost all prophecized the coming of the Messiah Yeshua. There are so many history books and literature from outside which confirm the bible events. All of the writers of the bible were JEWS.

            The problem is idolatry and mythology is prostituting before the local demons nothing more. Vedas are prostituting and chanting (dancing) before the local demons, the Whore of Babylon (Babel/Confusion).

  24. INSAAN says

    Hi To All,

    Why are you all Fighting or Debating for GOD?
    Have you ever seen GOD?
    Have you ever felt his power?

    Then why this long debate????
    What are you all fighting for????
    What are you all going to prove by this????

    GOD IS ONE…..he is like our Father-Mother-Sister-Brother and Friend!!!!!!

    He has taken millions of births and with millions of different faces…..so that he could show us the real path towards our realisation and help us to get moksha……so that we could not come again on earth to face the challenges and pains of life.

    Every incarnation……from any country or from any part of the world tried to show us the path to know and to reach GOD.

    GOD has to preserve us all…..this is why he born again-and-again in our community or religion or culture, so that we could understant his preachings in our language.

    We should STOP fighting on the name of GOD.

    Instead of fighting for him…..we should share our knowledge and experiences of GOD and by combining good things from our culture or religion, then only we can be united and boundryless.

    And thats how we can create a beautiful place to live for our children and let them smile with peace and innocence…..

    STOP FIGHTING PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!

    • Mac says

      Truth is absolute. You can’t combine truth with half-truth or mythology. This is a quote from Hitler. But it remained for the Jews, with their unqualified capacity for falsehood, and their fighting comrades, the Marxists, to impute responsibility for the downfall precisely to the man who alone had shown a superhuman will and energy in his effort to prevent the catastrophe which he had foreseen and to save the nation from that hour of complete overthrow and shame. By placing responsibility for the loss of the world war on the shoulders of Ludendorff they took away the weapon of moral right from the only adversary dangerous enough to be likely to succeed in bringing the betrayers of the Fatherland to Justice.
      All this was inspired by the principle–which is quite true within itself–that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying.

      —Adolf Hitler , Mein Kampf, vol. I, ch. X

      Jesus said: Satan is the father of lies. He was a lier since the beginning.

      • krishnarao says

        Mac, Like I said before, you did not do good research of what the people who run this sight support. They do not support idol worship of any kind. Yes, there are Hindus that come on here that do support idol worship, and we do have somethings in common with them, but not the idol worship part. Praying to Jesus or even having Jesus to connect with God is a form of idolworship. We also consider that history centrism. You are a history centric person. We believe God is beyond history, and by requiring people to use Jesus and his history to connect with God is idol worship. On this site most people support praying to the One God only. Nothing else. Just the one God. And we believe, most important thing is to meditate on the one God. The techniques are important, Meditation and Yoga.

        • Mac says

          Although I have studied all thru in an orthodox jewish school being a christian, I use to take classes in gymnastics and yoga in arya samaj way back. If you want to meditate, meditate on His Word in humble submission. It starts from John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

          There is a duality of purpose. Although it is a duality, but the purpose in one. In the realms of spirituality what we know is that the God is a Word and He is One. Let me elaborate on that.

          ELOHIM: God (a plural noun, more than two, used with singular verbs); Elohim occurs 2,570 times in the OT, 32 times in Gen. 1. God as Creator, Preserver, Transcendent, Mighty and Strong. Eccl., Dan. Jonah use Elohim almost exclusively. See Gen. 17:7, 6:18, 9:15, 50:24; I Kings 8:23; Jer. 31:33; Isa. 40:1.

          EL SHADDAI: God Almighty or “God All Sufficient.” 48 times in the OT, 31 times in Job. First used in Gen. 17:1, 2. (Gen. 31:29, 49:24, 25; Prov. 3:27; Micah 2:1; Isa. 60:15, 16, 66:10-13; Ruth 1:20, 21) In Rev. 16:7, “Lord God the Almighty.” The Septuagint uses Greek “ikanos” meaning “all-sufficient” or “self-sufficient.” The idols of the heathen are called “sheddim.”

          ADONAI: Lord in our English Bibles (Capital letter ‘L ‘, lower case, ‘ord’) (Adonai is plural, the singular is “adon”). “Master” or “Lord” 300 times in the OT always plural when referring to God, when singular the reference is to a human lord. Used 215 times to refer to men. First use of Adonai, Gen. 15:2. (Ex. 4:10; Judges 6:15; 2 Sam. 7:18-20; Ps. 8, 114:7, 135:5, 141:8, 109:21-28). Heavy use in Isaiah (Adonai Jehovah). 200 times by Ezekiel. Ten times in Dan. 9.

          JEHOVAH: LORD in our English Bibles (all capitals). Yahweh is the covenant name of God. Occurs 6823 times in the OT First use Gen. 2:4 (Jehovah Elohim). From the verb “to be”, havah, similar to chavah (to live), “The Self-Existent One,” “I AM WHO I AM” or ‘I WILL BE WHO I WILL BE” (the Ego Emmi) as revealed to Moses at the burning bush, Ex.3. The name of God, too sacred to be uttered, abbreviated ( . . . . ) or written “YHWH” without vowel points. The tetragrammaton. Josh., Judges, Sam., and Kings use Jehovah almost exclusively. The love of God is conditioned upon His moral and spiritual attributes. (Dan. 9:14; Ps. 11:7; Lev. 19:2; Hab. 1:12). Note Deut. 6:4, 5 known to Jews as the Sh’ma uses both Jehovah and Elohim to indicate one God with a plurality of persons.

          I AM WHO I AM in that Name there are two I AMs, it means Yah in hebrew, its the duality of One God, Father and Son. Whole creation is balanced by two things. Duality is in each and everything. The reason they crucified Jesus was that He claimed godship, He said to jews that He is the I AM, the hebrew God. It is the biggest blasphemy to jews, so the chief priest tored his cloak when he heard Jesus saying that.

          • Jay says

            Now he wants to convert Hindus by using our Mediation to chant Christian beliefs. What a slick devil Mac is, and how stupid he must think we are to fall for that.

          • Naaz says

            Elohim, Amen, om doesnt all sounds mean the same?? I am here to learn. not debate. pls can anyone clarify

          • Mac says

            Elohim is the plurality of One God (Father and Son), the only Living hebrew God. Amen means “so be it” or “let it be done”. Om is a vedic chant. It is a sound basically, they say is premordial vibration of god energy. Now, chantings over and over are practiced to INVOKE spirits, to wake it up or to stirr it.

            Whereas God commands exactly opposite. The Living God do not go to sleep and when we call His Name, He hears. His Name is Holy and chanting His Name again and again would be like joking Him and He will get irritated.

            Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain (KJV, also “You shall not make wrongful use of the Name of the Lord your God” (NRSV) and variants) is one of the Ten Commandments. It is a prohibition of blasphemy, specifically, the misuse or “taking in vain” of the Name of the God of Israel. Exodus 20:7 reads:

            “Thou shalt not take the Name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh His Name in vain.”

            Based on this commandment, Second Temple Judaism by the Hellenistic period developed a taboo of pronouncing the Name of God at all, resulting in the replacement of the Tetragrammaton by “Adonai” (literally “my lords” – see Adonai) in pronunciation. Even today jews do not write “God” instead they write “G-d”.

            In the Hebrew Bible itself, the commandment is directed against abuse of the Name of God, not against any use; there are numerous examples in the Hebrew Bible and a few in the New Testament where God’s Name is called upon in oaths to tell the truth or to support the truth of the statement being sworn to, and the books of Daniel and Revelation include instances where an angel sent by God invokes the Name of God to support the truth of apocalyptic revelations. God Himself is presented as swearing by His own Name (“As surely as I live …”) to guarantee the certainty of various events foretold through the prophets.

            But when Israel goes to war, on the battle field, they will INVOKE the Name of God of Abraham by saying:

            Deutronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

            The original word for LORD is YWHW (I am who I am). Then the LORD will tear apart the heavens and come down with myraids of angels with thunder and lightening and great pestilence and war with the enemies of Israel. God rained down large stones from Heaven on some of Israel’s enemies (Joshua 10:11).

          • krishnarao says

            Really naaz. lol…… So same like who. By your explanation everyone should convert to Vedic Hinduism because we are all the same. If we are all the same than everyone should be same like me. I’m not gonna same like them. Have everyone convert and become same like me. Because we are all the same.

            Seriously naaz. you are not very smart. Rajiv Malhotra addresses the BS sameness argument and shamed dumbass gurus preaching that non-sense. Because if we are all the same as you say, than people from different religions wouldn’t have a problem saying the Gayatri Mantra every single day and converting to Vedic Hinduism. Come on naaz everyone is the same, so be same like me.

          • krishnarao says

            Mac your religion is filled with idol worship. We do not believe in worshiping a history centric religion. Your religion worships history. I noticed you have not done proper purva paksha. You need to under us from our stance before you start arguing against us. You clearly have not done that. What you are not getting is the history centrism of your religion is totally and utterly against the basic DNA and fiber of our faith. We do not believe in history centrism. Your religion has a historical character that did historical events and no one can replicate it. That is called history centrism. We believe in the true freedom where everyone can replicate what the so called top dog did. Any religion that does not let us do that is utter non-sense. It is not a religion of God. It is a religion of subversion. Your religion does not let you become Jesus. If jesus was such great being he woudl have shown everyone else how to become jesus. We think he is fake because he didn’t show us that. A true person who has connected with God will show people how to experience what he/she has.

            Jesus was a just a man spreading lies. Because he wanted all the power for himself. He never showed anyone else how to become Jesus as well. He is a fake. That is called history centrism. God is Beyond history. Dharmic people do not limit God to history. Your jesus limits god to history. That is called subversion. God is beyond history. Be a man and stop subverting people with your history crazy centric ways.

          • Mac says

            Are you telling me NOT to believe in proven history, archeology, DNA science, internal and external evidences confirming the Word of God of Abraham, the Living God? Are you telling me to believe in myths, rig veda which was not even mentioned in any literature even as late as King Darius I, who lived in 6th century BC? And the rest of your other vedas and scriptures were written many centuries later on. Again, the fact remains that none of your vedas have known writers neither researched, proven, has any internal or external evidence. Secondly, your vedas DO NOT mention the other peoples of this world, whereas bible covers all of them.

            We christians are the body of Christ, the Church. The sons of donkeys are donkeys, the sons of man are men, sons of God are gods. You need to be born of the Holy Spirit to become the spiritual Son of God. If you want to be Christ-like, follow Him. I will give you verses for the things you are arguing about herebelow.

            You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the One who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. (1 John 4:4)

            For it was fitting that He (Jesus), for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one origin. That is why HE IS NOT ASHAMED TO CALL THEM BROTHERS… (Hebrews 2:10-11)

            Pslam 82:6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’ But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler.”

            John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I HAVE SAID YOU ARE GODS’?

            For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. (2 Corinthians 10:3-5)

            The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being, sustaining all things by His powerful word. (Hebrews 1:3)

            For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18)

          • krishnarao says

            “Are you telling me NOT to believe in proven history”

            Proven history. That is the biggest lie. All you use is quotes from the bible and claim it is proven history. The bible is a complete fabrication. sorry bud, but the bible is not proof. It is a made up book. there was no methodology of memorizing the book until it was put in book format by the council of nicea. Get over yourself you fool. I’m not sure what you are trying to do here, but as you can see not one person is buying your garbage.

          • Mac says

            OT was already there, the Torah the Law and the prophets before Christ came. Now as far as Gospel is concerned, the NT, well it was cannonized in Nicea with careful research, internal and external evidence, historical and archeological proofs. Further it is confirmed every day by science and new research. The books which the bible refers, again I am saying, are history books.

            Among the religious books available in this world today, Bible is the only most amazing book, which proves again and again, the TRUTH.

          • kewal pandita says

            do you know that jesus learn t everything in kashmir and he is also buried in kashmir.
            go and google it, what do you have to say now

        • Jay says

          Krishnaroo, Mac is not so much history centric but Jewish Mythology centric which he passes off as history and denies anything else that contradicts his religious dogma in Jewish mythology. Nothing he says is support by genuine scientists or historians. He is showing not science or history but his own projection of Jewish mythology distorting science and history that otherwise would discredit it.

          • Mac says

            Be it the Nalanda University or any other center of knowledge destruction and deletion are the words which come to our mind.

            Thanks to the internet we can now at least know that there was a case of deliberate deletion of our history by some forces. Considering the fact that our ancient mythological scriptures even had a manual on a pilot’s diet, leave alone their deep study on avionics. As we very well know Research and Development requires the bibliography of the topic which is being researched i.e. work done on that topic in the past (history). But the documentation of our ancient past itself has been whitewashed so the person and the society have not been able to mature and develop based on the knowledge of this ancient researchers and this deletion and denial continues to happen today. What we are left with is unhistorical myths and lies.

            Some body surely does not want us to learn from it, be self-respecting and mature as a nation, a society or a religion. Maturity would mean, with good knowledge and correct facts about a situation a consciences and unanimity in making a decision would be more likely, as people would be able to come down to specific inferences from the given facts which would help the community find the right direction. As the Hindu society is ignorant it does not recognize as a community that its self-respect is being hurt or certain political mileage is being taken out of a certain step. The politics is such that as Hindus are fragmented and ignorant. Parties use hook or crook to get the vote of a section of society. They then lure the Muslims as a community to vote for them by providing special incentives or often using Hindu bashing literally and verbally to acquire their votes in the name of Secularism. The word secular means an absence of concern with religion. We realize that this politics is anything but secular.

            Some leaders in our country have been projected as gods. Their mistakes are never highlighted, but they are ignored and swept under the carpet in order to maintain the false image of their infallibility and intelligence.

            Nehru’s incompetence and impractical philosophy came to the foreground in the 1962 Indo-China war with our rout Tens of thousands of our brave soldiers lost their lives, who were without food, proper clothing, by now obsolete First World War weapons of 1914. He once made a statement that displayed his foolishness succinctly for the entire world to see: he said that we did not need an army and that a police force was sufficient.

            At the time of the war the American magazine Time wrote. The Indian soldiers lacked every thing except guts, without any kind of supplies they died fighting the Chinese with buts of their obsolete guns. More than a rout of India and its moral, it was more a rout of Nehru’s philosophy which he himself realized and cried a loud saying China had back stabbed us. As he could not recover from this trauma, soon after he died. Qualities in leaders required the most is more of competence, practicality to decide what is best for the country for a given situation and not bull headedly treading a path which satisfies their own philosophy. In other words a leader should mature enough to think rationally according to the circumstances at that moment and knows in which situations it is best to be bullheaded.

          • krishnarao says

            Well said Jay, he is Jewish centric, but that does fall into history centrism. He worships history. His religion needs a very specific historical event to exist. And conveniently his religion doesn’t teach people how to replicate what their top dog did, aka jesus. But Vedic Dharmic Hinduism teaches us that there is no such thing is a prophet or son of god or any of that garbage. Instead we believe in the Rishi tradition where anyone can connect with God and become a Rishi.

            A Rishi is someone who meditated on God and reached enlightenment. And it isn’t restricted to bullshit prophet or son of ass or some other trash. We believe in true equality where anyone can connect with God. Only an oppressive religion makes you worship their history. A Godly religion let’s anyone connect directly with God. Godly religion gives you techniques and oppressive religions are history centric.

          • Mac says

            Let me tell you how stupid and foolish your belief system is. You go thru a vedic life cycle of a trillion or a billion lives, where in you get one chance of becoming enlightened. If you fail that human life form chance, you go again the 900 yards. Again, in human life you have to be born in a vedic hindu family only. If you are born in a christian, muslim or any other faith family, you again have to go thru the vedic life cycle, the whole 900 yards. Hasnt God given you your own conscience, is it put to sleep or blinded because of vedic lies? So you have to get enlightened. What is buddha doing after enlightenment? He is out of life cycle, got nirvana? Has he become 33,00,00,001st god? But Buddha did said that he is NOT god.

            But Jesus claimed godship. It is His right to claim. Which of your gods say or have claimed his godship or said I created this creation? Give me a verse. Only God can be worshipped.

            John 14:6 Jesus said: “No one can come to the Father except through Me.”

            Jesus receives worship:

            “Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, ‘Do you believe in the Son of Man?’ He answered, ‘Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?’ Jesus said to him, ‘You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.’ And he said, ‘Lord, I believe.’ And he worshiped Him.” (John 9:35-38).

            “When they got into the boat, the wind stopped. And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, ‘You are certainly God’s Son!'” (Matthew 14:32-33).

            “And when He again brings the firstbegotten into the world, He says, ‘And let all the angels of God worship Him.'” (Hebrews 1:6).

            We see that the angels of God REFUSE to be worshipped:

            “Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, ‘Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.'” (Revelation 19:10). See also Rev 22:8-9.

            Even demons claimed that Jesus is the Son of God.

            Mark 3:11 And whenever the unclean spirits (demons) saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, “You are the Son of God.”

            Matthew 8:29 And behold, they (demons) cried out, “What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?

            Mark 5:7 The Demon said: And crying out with a loud voice, he said, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.”

            Luke 4:14 And demons also came out of many, crying, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ.

            Luke 4:33-35 And in the synagogue there was a man who had the spirit of an unclean demon, and he cried out with a loud voice, “Ha! What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.” But Jesus rebuked him, saying, “Be silent and come out of him!” And when the demon had thrown him down in their midst, he came out of him, having done him no harm.

            Jesus the I AM of OT, the hebrew Living God.

            Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, `What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?” God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” (YWHW) And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, `I AM has sent me to you.'” God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, `The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you': this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.(Exodus 3:10-15)

            Jesus said to them, “I AM the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst. (John 6:35)

            Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I AM the light of the world; he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” (John 8:12)

            So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I AM the door of the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and robbers; but the sheep did not heed them. I am the door; if any one enters by me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

            I AM the good shepherd. (John 10:10)

            Jesus said to her, “I AM the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, he who is coming into the world.” (John 11:23-27)

            Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him.” (John 14:4-7)

            I AM the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. (John 15:1)

            The Jews then said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.(John 8:55-59)

            Luke 22:67 Jesus is asked: “If thou art the Christ, tell us. But he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe”.

            In the Sanhedrine at Jesus’ trial:

            Luke 22:70 when asked: “Are you then the Son of God?” Jesus answers: “You say that I am” affirming the title Son of God. At that point the priests say: “What further need have we of witness? for we ourselves have heard from his own mouth” and decide to condemn Jesus. (The High Priest tore down his cloak because it is a blasphemy to call yourself God).

            Let me tell you, Krishnarao;

            For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a Spirit of power. (2 Timothy 1:7)

            For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk, but of power. (1 Corinthians 4:20)

          • krishnarao says

            Here is weirdio mac preaching his bullshit again:

            “You go thru a vedic life cycle of a trillion or a billion lives, where in you get one chance of becoming enlightened.”
            – One chance, Really, Please quote me the line from the Vedas that says Vedic people have “ONE” chance to become enlightened. I think you are incredibly misinformed. You are confusing the Vedic faith with your own where it says, you get only one chance to follow Mr. Jesus and if you don’t, you will go to hell forever and burn there. What a disgusting image of god. That is not God at all, it is a demon that says that kind of garbage.

            “Again, in human life you have to be born in a vedic hindu family only. If you are born in a christian, muslim or any other faith family, you again have to go thru the vedic life cycle, the whole 900 yards.”
            – Again you are making up shit. Please quote me the line in the Vedas that Says you can only be born into a Vedic faith. Anyone can convert. Check out http://www.youtube.com/user/agniveer and you will see Christians and muslims being converted to the Vedic faith. So stop spreading lies you retard.

            “What is buddha doing after enlightenment? He is out of life cycle, got nirvana? Has he become 33,00,00,001st god?”
            – Never heard this before. I read the Vedas and I don’t see this in there.

            “But Buddha did said that he is NOT god.”
            – About the only thing I agree with you on.

            Remember it is the Christians that say you will go to hell if you don’t get it right in this life time. And hell is forever. THat is a religion of hate. Only a religion of hate will condemn people to hell forever. And Christianity is just that. Next Christianity makes people pay for some else’s sin. Vedic faith is totally against that. I read the Vedas and no way does it say we are all sinner. Christianity says it because we are the so called children of adam and eve who were sinners. What kind of sick religion passes sin of someone else to the whole of humanity. Only the sick and disgusting religion of christianity. These christians promote the worst of humanity while the Vedic faith promotes the best of humanity. We believe humanity is divine while Christians believe we are sinners. Clearly Vedic faith is about pure love while christianity is about pure hate.

          • Mac says

            Say you dont get enlightened in this life and become a buddhu. In your next life in the life cycle say you become an ant or a mosquito, are you going to study veda and chant mantras being an ant or a mosquito???

            Do you even know what love is? Do you know how many kinds of love God made and approved?

          • krishnarao says

            Mr. Spanky, a.k.a. Mac, Seriously the amount of shit you keep making up is unbelievable. As I said before this is a Dharmic Vedic site. We do not believe in many gods. It’s your christians that believe in that shit. e.g. jesus, holy ghost, and the father. Vedic people only believe in One God. Yet you keep making shit up. As I said before, Give me proof of your statements from the Vedas. Tell me which Arya Samaj scholar translated that verse. Which verse. who published it and which Vedic group approved the statement you made amount many Gods. I have never heard of that statement.

  25. says

    dear people,

    Rama is not a myth. The existence of Rama is a fact, and there are solid evidences also.
    we can find out the history of India in holly book kalpasutra written in Pali.(language) according to Kalpasutra Rama was lived 5000 years ago. He was not a God. but he was a great personality.

  26. Mac says

    We know Ram-anna, Bharat-sin (Warad Sin) and Tussarat (Dasratha) were the ancestor of Darius I. As also until Chandragupta I today’s India was not populated. We also know that Darius attacked and took over Indus valley in 6th c. BC. If you see old Mesopotamia and Persian maps, you can see that only NW India was populated. King Kedarlaomer was an Elamite king who lost the battle with Abraham. Abraham lived on the other side of the valley where in Soddom and Gommorah and 3 other cities were there. It is now the Dead Sea. There is a place in Iraq called Ramanna.

    • Jay says

      “We know:” “We” being all the multiple personalities in Mac’s head. No credible scholar in mainstream schools teach this warped religious twist of history that Mac is pathetically trying to pass off here as fact.

    • SDC says

      Kudur-Mabuk was a ruler in the ancient Near East city-state of Larsa from 1770 BC to 1754 BC. His sons Warad-Sin and Rim-Sin I were kings of Larsa. His daughter En-ane-du was high priestess of the moon god in Ur. Their stories do not bear even an iota of resemblance to the stories of Ramayana. Ariaramnes or Ariyāramna “He who brings peace to the Aryans (i.e. Iranians)” was a great uncle of Cyrus the Great and the great-grandfather of Darius I, and perhaps the king of Parsa, the ancient core kingdom of Persia. If anything, the Persians were Aryans who probably migrated from the Indian mainland which was once known as Aryavart, the land of the Aryans. Tushratta was a king of Mitanni at the end of the reign of Amenhotep III and throughout the reign of Akhenaten — approximately the late 14th century BC. He was the son of Shuttarna II. His sister Gilukhipa and his daughter Tadukhipa were married to the Egyptian pharaoh Amenhotep III; Tadukhipa later married Akhenaten who took over his father’s royal harem. If you happen to read the Ramayana, you will find that the stories of these historical figures do not match those of that of the Ramayana.

      • Mac says

        That is exactly the whole confusion. The names mentioned therein matches linquistically with phonetic variations, however, the stories do not match. As per our historical records and the world history and nearby countries history, Darius I ruled upto NW India of today and from Chandragupta I time India gradually started to urbanize that is what our recorded history states. Now, one thing is for sure that Ram ruled 60 years and Arya Ram-anna ruled 60 years the longest in Elamite history. Even in Esther 1:1 King Ashaurus (Xerex) is mentioned ruling from Ethiopia to India over 127 provinces establishing Satraps over each of the provinces.

        Khambhoja gurjars are mentioned in your epic wars, who were very fast and sharp shooters of arrows. The white huns who came from north. This matches the world history. However, the 10 wars should be the wars mentioned in history of Amorites (Hummarabi) and Babylonians and Elamites/Sumerians. Samaria was named after a man called Shemer, and bought for two talents of silver.

        1 Kings 16:24 He bought the hill of Samaria from Shemer for two talents of silver and built a city on the hill, calling it Samaria, after Shemer, the name of the former owner of the hill.

        Talmud and world history states that Elamites were the first once who settled near south of the main land middle east i.e. Indus valley after dispersion from Babylon, rather Ur, Iraq of today, where all the descendents of Shem, Ham and Japheth lived together under King Nimrod who was building a tower at babylon. There is plenty of evidence that Elamites and Medes people lived together. Elamites descendents of Elam, eldest son of Shem and Medes, sons of Madai, 4th son of Japheth. Who after the allotment of the earth by Noah didnt liked his portion and requested Shem, his uncle to allow him to live in his allotted land as per the records of historical Book of Jubilees, Talmud, Zohar and Bible. Darius I was a medes, who called himself a persian. Persians are a mixture of medes and elamites. This is all good history.

        Now, the epic ramayan myths should have happened in Indus valley, Persia or in that region and not in India as Indian history records urbanization since the time of Chandragupta I. Susa was the capital of old Elam and Susan was the daughter of Elam. Another confusion of the myths is that brahmastras (kind of missiles) and flying chariots, some supernatural events and happenings do not match the history after Noah’s flood. Such things happened before the Noah’s flood. Science was way forward before Noah’s flood because of the fallen angels who taught mankind all the wisdom of physical and spiritual worlds.

        I feel sure that the grand son of Elam who found the written inscriptions after Noah’s flood carried the teachings of fallen angels and old legends of the events of the time before Noah’s flood. Also, all of Noah’s three sons knew what happened before Noah’s flood. They must have carried those stories and knowledge from generation to generations until it ended up becoming myths and folklores with twisted truth. I am discussing this with you to extract the truth from the stories we know and the recorded history.

    • SDC says

      Chedorlaomer or Kedorlaomer is a king of Elam in the book of Genesis Chapter 14. Following the discovery of documents written in the Elamite language and Babylonian language, it was thought that Chedorlaomer is a transliteration of the Elamite compound Kudur-Lagamar, meaning servant of Lagamaru, – a reference to Lagamaru, an Elamite deity whose existence was mentioned by Assurbanipal. However, no mention of an individual named Kudur Lagamar has yet been found; inscriptions that were thought to contain this name are now known to have different names (the confusion arose due to similar lettering). David Rohl identifies Chedorlaomer with an Elamite king named Kutir-Lagamar. The desperate attempts to link him to Lakshamana of Ramayana is at best pathetic. See this link for more info on how things are being made up to suit a certain agenda:

      http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2009-June/038826.html

      • Mac says

        We are not linking Laxman of Ramayan with Chedarlaomer. The problem is that vedic myths in fact do not match the world history nor Talmud or Bible. Whereas Summerian, Egyptian, Babylonians, Assyrian, Greek and Aggadic literature and history matches bible almost perfectly. But, Chedarlaomer was an Elamite King is history.

        Vedas are more like poetries of mythical folklores and legends. Noah did prayed for his descendents when demons appeared and mislead the people.

        One thing Satan wants you to believe is that HE DOES NOT EXIST.

        • Jay says

          The Talmud and Bible do not match the Vedas. So what. They are Middle Eastern Jewish mythologies. Native Americans have their own faiths and scriptures which do not match anyone else. And no, Ancient histories do not match the Talmud and Bible. In fact many Jewish myths were rip offs of ancient mythologies. Mac is still seeing history through Jewish mythology, still believing that we are all descended from Middle Eastern Jews. Still a Christian nutter without any real history department or scientific institution backing what he says.

        • krishnarao says

          The bible does not match world fact or history. It is totally made up. What some christians are doing is trying to do some elaborate gymnastics to connect history to the bible, but it doesn’t work. There are way to many loop holes when you do that. That is why even christians today are saying most of the stories in the bible are probably not true. They are realizing it is just a made up book. No proof to back it up at all.

      • SDC says

        Points to ponder. Chedarlaomer was not Laksmana of Ramayana is beyond a shadow of doubt although repeated attempts were made to establish a non-existent link. In fact, the attempt to pass off Chedarlaomer as being Kudur-Lagamar that is phonetically similar to Laghumal (Raghupati Rama) has been done with mala fide intent. Such attempts make one doubt the veracity of such research, which seem aimed to work towards validating and justifying the idea of creationism. If you go by Sumerian, Egyptian, and Babylonian literature, the Epic of Gilgamesh predates the Noah’s Ark story as being the oldest written story on Earth found in the library of Ashurbanipal with scholars suggesting that the story of Noah is most probably an adaptation of that story.

        For more on the authenticity of the Vedas and to know more on Indian civilizations the knowledge of which you woefully lack, please refer to the link below:

        http://www.eshiusa.org/Articles/Sarasvati.pdf

        • Mac says

          Asshur was one of the son of Shem, Noah’s eldest son. His descendents are assyrians. You dont know what you are talking about.

          The Epic of Gilgamesh, an epic poem from Mesopotamia, is amongst the earliest surviving works of literature. The literary history of Gilgamesh begins with five independent Sumerian poems about ‘Bilgamesh’ (Sumerian for Gilgamesh), king of Uruk. Four of these were used as source material for a combined epic in Akkadian. This first, “Old Babylonian” version of the epic dates to the 18th century BC and is titled Shūtur eli sharrī (“Surpassing All Other Kings”). Only a few fragments of it survive. The later, Standard Babylonian version dates from the 13th to the tenth centuries and bears the title Sha naqba īmuru (“He who Saw the Deep”). Fragments of approximately two thirds of this longer, 12 tablet version have been recovered. Some of the best copies were discovered in the library ruins of the 7th-century BC Assyrian king Ashurbanipal.

          Samaria was named after a man called Shemer, and bought for two talents of silver.

          1 Kings 16:24 He bought the hill of Samaria from Shemer for two talents of silver and built a city on the hill, calling it Samaria, after Shemer, the name of the former owner of the hill.

          WHERE THE HELL YOU ARE PUTTING IT BEFORE NOAH’S FLOOD.

          • kewal pandita says

            i will tell you the real story of indian mythology and MAC
            ravana had sex with a she donkey and MAC was born. then ravana told his son MAC(body of man and mind of a donkey) that i will be killed by ram, so i donot want to dishonour my family lineage, so do something to be grace on us. MAC made some stories and died with the memory,
            then in million years later, kansa had sex with mary, a bitch, a leech and a frog, jesus was born out of mary, abraham was born out of bitch, noah was born out of leech and moses was born out of frog. they had same story that all of them were disgraced persons, they knew that they will not be worshipped, so they made a plan, one by one they all had sex with reincarnated she donkey whom ravana had sex with, and reincarnated MAC was born again, and the disgraced prophets told mac same what ravana told them, and MAC is making all these nonsense stories and wrote torah, injeel, bible and he is writing a new book now, which will be published soon,

          • krishnarao says

            Mr. Spanky, a.k.a. Mac,

            As I said before, you keep posting false things about Vedas and Dharmic people. I asked you before Mr. Spanky, if you are going to make a claim about either, provide proof from an approved translated copy of the Vedas:

            1. Tell use how translated the that copy of the Vedas

            2. Which verse you are talking about

            3. Which Vedic group approves it

            4. Where can I go buy or checkout a copy of it.

            5. Who published that copy of the Vedas.

            Why do you run away you little bitch. Why don’t you answer the questions. You make false claims, but you have no proof. Stop being a bitch Mr. Spanky, be a man for once in your life.

        • SDC says

          Misrepresenting facts is one of the principal traits of Christians like Mad Mac. According to some Judaeo-Christian theological traditions, the city of Ashur (also spelled Assur or Aššur) was founded by Ashur the son of Shem, who was deified by later generations as the city’s patron god. However, there is absolutely no historical basis whatsoever for this tradition in the far older Mesopotamian annals; Assyrian tradition itself lists an early Assyrian king named Ushpia as having dedicated the first temple to the god Ashur in the city in the 21st century BC. It is highly likely that the city was named in honor of the Assyrian god of the same name. In prehistoric times the region was home to a Neanderthal culture such as has been found at the Shanidar Cave. The earliest Neolithic sites in Assyria were the Jarmo culture circa 7100 BC and Tell Hassuna, the centre of the Hassuna culture, circa 6000 BC.

          • Mac says

            Do U really believe in Neanderthals? Are you an atheist? Or, do you believe in one God?

            The Table of Nations is already well researched and proved with historical evidence, archeology and science. I have already elaborated on that.

            Ashur was the brother of Elam, Arphaxsad and Lud. His son was Tekoe. All those nations were named after the sons of Shem, Ham and Japheth. Nothing is missing. The earth was repopulated by the descendents of the three sons of Noah……….period.

          • SDC says

            I knew you would cast doubts on the existence of Neanderthals because it punches gaping holes through the very idea of creationism. Cherry-picking and hypocrisy at its best.

            I have given links and produced excerpts from that link but it seems you are unwilling to part with your bullheaded attitude and understandably so.

            You present the Jewish version of the story which scholars do not agree with. You can choose to stay in a state of perpetual self-denial.

          • Mac says

            Bro.,

            You are opening another pandora’s box, which christians have already chewed and spitted it out.

            You are residing on the premises of bad science. Hypotheses and in accurate C14 carbon dating. Earth has the largest coal and it is because of the flooding. They are still finding artifacts deep down 1000 feet or more and trees vertically buried when they mine. You are feeding on evolution theory, which is just a theory. Darwin fooled the world and you are one of his victims.

            Why dont you understand if the evolution theory works aright, how come we do not have TRANSMUTATING species living amongst us?

            And, your Hanuman was not a monkey either.

          • Jay says

            What Mac calls bad science is REAL science that does not conform to his Jewish/Christian mythology world view. He does not understand the basic concept of scientific theory, which is different from the common notion of theory.

          • Jay says

            I think people need to read up on what is scientific law, hypothesis and theory. Read the definitions of all three here http://wilstar.com/theories.htm

            “A theory is what one or more hypotheses become once they have been verified and accepted to be true.” Furthermore,Theories do not become laws.

        • SDC says

          Tradition credits Moses as the author of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, but modern scholars increasingly see it as a product of the 6th and 5th centuries BC. For much of the 20th century most scholars agreed that the five books of the Pentateuch—Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy—came from four sources, the Yahwist, the Elohist, the Deuteronomist and the Priestly source, each telling the same basic story, and joined together by various editors. Since the 1970s there has been a revolution in scholarship: the Elohist source is now widely regarded as no more than a variation on the Yahwist, while the Priestly source is increasingly seen not as a document but as a body of revisions and expansions to the Yahwist (or “non-Priestly”) material. (The Deuteronomistic source does not appear in Genesis). In composing the Patriarchal history the Yahwist drew on four separate blocks of traditional stories about Abraham, Jacob, Judah and Joseph, combining them with genealogies, itineraries and the “promise” theme to create a unified whole. Similarly, when composing the “primeval history” he drew on Greek and Mesopotamian sources, editing and adding to them to create a unified work that fit his theological agenda. The Yahwistic work was then revised and expanded into the final edition by the authors of the Priestly source. This leaves the question of when these works were created. Scholars in the first half of the 20th century came to the conclusion that the Yahwist was produced in the monarchic period, specifically at the court of Solomon, and the Priestly work in the middle of the 5th century BC (the author was even identified as Ezra), but more recent thinking is that the Yahwist was written either just before or during the Babylonian exile of the 6th century, and the Priestly final edition was made late in the Exilic period or soon after. As for why the book was created, a theory which has gained considerable interest, although still controversial is “Persian imperial authorisation”. This proposes that the Persians, after their conquest of Babylon in 538 BC, agreed to grant Jerusalem a large measure of local autonomy within the empire, but required the local authorities to produce a single law code accepted by the entire community. The two powerful groups making up the community—the priestly families who controlled the Temple and who traced their foundation-myth to Moses and the wilderness wanderings, and the major landowning families who made up the “elders” and who traced their own origins to Abraham, who had “given” them the land—were in conflict over many issues, and each had its own “history of origins”, but the Persian promise of greatly increased local autonomy for all provided a powerful incentive to cooperate in producing a single text.

          • Mac says

            Are you really telling me to believe in WHAT modern scholars say? Are you telling me that Herodotus, the Father of Histories and world famous historian of Jesus’ time viz. Flavius Josephus, who himself was a greco-roman jew are LIARS? Read my reply to Jay on this blog where I have given the histrocity of Jesus.

            The prophets have written that Babylon will be punished. King Cyrus the great was the chosen one of God. The Shekinah (glory) of God was on Cyrus then. He crushed Babylon and allowed jews to rebuild the temple. And, Darius I his successor did the same. Cyrus’ Cylinder is available on internet read it.

          • SDC says

            And you want me to believe in what the Jewish scholars have to say, isn’t it? Why so? History has been grossly misrepresented, distorted, and rewritten by the Judeo-Christian West to further their goals of evangelism. Serious doubts have been cast on the veracity of the claims made by them by modern scholars.

            A few words on Herodotus: Herodotus appears to have drawn on an Ionian tradition of story-telling, collecting and interpreting the oral histories he chanced upon in his travels. These oral histories often contained folk-tale motifs and demonstrated a moral, yet they also contained substantial facts relating to geography, anthropology and history, all compiled by Herodotus in an entertaining style and format. It is on account of the many strange stories and the folk-tales he reported that his critics in early modern times branded him ‘The Father of Lies’. Even his own contemporaries found reason to scoff at his achievement. Although The Histories were often criticized in antiquity for bias, inaccuracy and plagiarism—Lucian of Samosata attacked Herodotus as a liar in Verae Historiae and went as far as to deny him a place among the famous on the Island of the Blessed—modern historians and philosophers take a more positive view of Herodotus’s methodology, especially those searching for a paradigm of objective historical writing. A few modern scholars have argued that Herodotus exaggerated the extent of his travels and invented his sources yet his reputation continues largely intact.

          • Mac says

            You are feeding on critics. And we have one world famous historian who is called the father of history. You are feeding on bugs.

            Herodotus’ history matches Bible, the Word of God.

            Instead of defying Herodotus, why dont you show me some thing more, which I can believe. Show me some greater proof then what Herodotus wrote.

          • SDC says

            So, you are allergic to criticism but not averse to the idea of misrepresentation of history. Was that Father of History infallible? What if he was religiously inclined to the Jewish ideology and tried to to paint history in a way that conforms to the Jewish folklore about creation. BTW, neanderthals are more real than nephilim giants. Google for them and find out more.

  27. jai shankar says

    @ mac, ohhhh…??? Ab-ram was a ram and sara was sita. Hee-ram was cousin of ab-ram.and parsu-ram was teacher of ab-ram. And Bal-ram was the brother of jejus khrist (krishna) follower of ab-ram. Bible was the story of rama’s.ram-sin,tussarat mention of jewish history it is prove that,ram searches sita she kidnaped ravanna?? Ahi ravanna and mahi ravanna the clone of ravanna.hanuman was the himan,herculous of greek version.i am right?? Laxmanna where mention of jewish ,so help me.

    • Mac says

      You cant mix up Abraham and Jesus with Elam’s bloodline. They were descendents of Arphaxsad, Elam’s brother. King Kedarlaomer who defeated Kings of Soddom and Gammorah was an Elamite king. Now, Kudur Laghumal or Kedarlaomer is an Elamite and Ram-anna and Warad-sin (Bharat) and their father Tussarat (Dasratha) were Elamites. They should be the descendents of King Kedarlaomer who was defeated by Abraham. Because Darius I the great mentions Ram-anna and Warad-sin; and Tussarat as his ancestors and Darius I lived in 6th century BC, so there is a gap of over 50 generations as Abraham is the 20th generation from Adam and Jesus is 77th generation from Adam. One thing is for sure that Ram-anna ruled for 60 years and your scriptures says that Ram ruled for 60 years. Ram-anna ruled the longest in the Elamite history. However, history do not mention much about him except there are few relics found in Ur, Iraq.

      The writers of vedas have screwed up the truth and history. Otherwise, the Summerian and Elamite literature and history are ancient and well known. But veda writers have cut of the whole historical culture from the rest of the world and redefined it as a fake history. They have not even recorded the recent Elamite history, nothing about King Darius the Great, or King Ahusaures the great. They ruled from Greece down to old India (Mesopotamia/Persia) and from Ethiopia to NW India. Indian history starts from Chandragupta I and it is sad that they cut off the truth and history from the rest of the world.

      • Jay says

        There Christian nutter Mac goes again. Mixing Jewish mythology into History and falsely viewing the entire world through those Jewish mythology tinted glasses. There is zero science backing Mac’s weird notion of where people descended from. Even in the Jewish and Christian mythology none of it goes into the details Mac retroactively gives to modern peoples. Read actual science from real scienctists not Mac, read actual History not Mac’s trying to fit Jewish mythology into history. He is falsely passing on his dogmatic view of the world as history that is not taught in credible mainstream schools.

        • Mac says

          How is main stream faith judaism and christianity a myth? 66 books of bible are well researched, proved and then authenticated with internal evidence, external evidence, archeological proof and world history. Today, it is further confirmed by DNA science exactly as it is written in the Bible. Check on the mtDNA hiplogroup tree of mankind of today and compare the Genesis 10 Table of Nations, I have elaborated above.

          What you are doing is called mudslinging old vedic traits.

          Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

        • SDC says

          Regarding the mtDNA haplogroup tree of mankind, please refer to this link for more:

          http://centreright.in/2009/09/re-evaluating-the-saraswati-sindhu-civilisation/#.UEgA1qD0TDc genetic

          Producing an excerpt from a link that I had provided earlier to bust the myth of the Table of Nations. “The tribes, or ethnic groups, appearing on the table are confined to a small area on the world map: largely the middle-east, but also segments of North Africa, Asia Minor and Europe. Some Christian literalists, however wrongly interpret the table, to infer it describes everyone on Earth today as having descended from Noah’s three sons. In reality, the limited ethnography of the table only covers the habitation of one race, Caucasoids. There are no Negroids or Mongoloids, on the table, since the authors had no knowledge of the eastern parts of Asia, or Sub-Sahara Africa when it was written have earlier provided a link to expose the poor and shoddy attempt to pass of the Table of Nations as an authentic source of information. It is commonly claimed by Christian literalists that Ham can be equated to the Negroid race. However the Hamite tribes or ethnic peoples listed in Genesis 10 are in fact Caucasoids.

          • Mac says

            GENESIS 10 (Table of Nations)
            History of Mankind

            The history of the races of mankind is a fascinating subject. Biologically, a race is generally thought of as a variety, or subspecies, within a given species. All the races are a part of the human race. We have made the term race to apply to skin color, but the dictionary defines race as “a class or kind of individuals with common characteristics, interests, appearances, or habits as if derived from a common ancestor.”

            Where did we come from? The answers have always been with us, as presented in the original Table of Nations. What you are about to read can best be described as an Exegesis (from the Greek exégesis, verb: exégetikos, meaning interpretation, guide, translation or critical exposition). Once you have read what is presented here, you may not view any race of people the same way again. Note that there is nothing like the Table of Nations (as presented here) in any other national tradition. Here we are given the origin of nations.

            We can also factually claim that wherever its statements can be sufficiently tested, Genesis 10 of the Bible has been found completely accurate; resulting partly from linguistic studies, partly from archaeology, and, more recently still, from the findings of physical anthropologists, who are, to this day, recovering important clues to lines of migration in ancient historic times. As implied in verse 32 of Genesis 10, this Table includes everybody; meaning that so-called fossil man, primitive peoples (ancient and modern) and modern man are all derived from Noah’s three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Acts 17:26 states, “From one man (or one blood) He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live,” a corroboration of Genesis 10. In light of this, findings from anthropology, archaeology, ethnography, ethnohistory, genetics, geology, and sociology substantiate an alternate interpretation of the history of humanity. As one archaeologist, William Albright, noted “it [the Bible] remains an astonishingly accurate document…and shows such remarkably ‘modern’ understanding of the ethnic and linguistic situation in the modern world, in spite of all its complexity, that scholars never fail to be impressed with it’s knowledge of the subject.” We can further infer from political histories—kingdoms, empires, and their rulers; also from artists, poets, philosophers, architects and mathematicians who enriched their individual cultures. Additionally, references from historical records, ancient literature, mythology, burial customs and other sources all provide strong evidences.

            This may seem a gross over-simplification, and even appear to oppose well-established secular scientific opinion; however, science has proven itself over and over to be a double-edged sword. For example, it is often found that what is obviously true, is actually false. The obvious idea that the sun moved around the earth was erroneous, but until that view was corrected, little progress was made in the science of astronomy. On the other hand, on occasion, what is obviously false turns out to be actually true, as in the scientific belief that dinosaurs and humans never coexisted. That changed when fossilized footprints of dinosaurs and humans were found together, with the most recent fossil discovery showing a human footprint slightly overlapped by a dinosaur footprint. Newly discovered artwork and various ancient artifacts depicting live dinosaurs by themselves, or interacting with humans, gave further proof. These include burial stones, burial cloths, clay figurines and cave drawings. While scientific knowledge is characterized by a progressive approach to reality, it has often proved detrimental to the progress of understanding in the things which it has denied. Such is the case here. So before you begin to judge, please continue reading.

            As stated earlier, race does not apply to skin color alone. Skin color is essentially the only biological difference in race, and science has been unable to determine what causes skin pigmentation. They have not been able to define the difference in cell pigment or structure. This superficial distinction is the basis for the division of mankind, but the fact is, we are all the same color, and some people have a little more “color” than others. Skin shade is due to the amount of a substance called melanin in the skin; the more melanin, the darker the skin. We are not born with a genetically fixed amount of melanin, but rather with a genetically fixed potential to produce a certain amount, increasing in response to sunlight (why Caucasians “tan” when exposed to the sun for long periods). Racially mixed individuals can have children with skin color that is very dark, very light, or anywhere in between. The predominant shade for freely interbreeding individuals would be brown.

            Modern genetics shows that when a large, freely interbreeding group is suddenly broken into many smaller groups which from then on breed only among themselves (as the Biblical description of the language dispersion at Babel would imply), different racial characteristics will arise very rapidly. It can be shown that one pair of middle-brown parents could produce all known shades of color, from very white to very black, in one generation. The racial characteristics which exist today have not evolved, and generally speaking, are simply different combinations of pre-existing (created) genetic (hereditary) information. Remee and Kian Hodgson born April 2005, and Layton and Kaydon Richardson born July 2006 are fraternal “black and white” twins. More incredible was the birth of two sets of mixed-race twins by Alison and Dean Durrant. Their first twins were born in 2001, and their second twins arrived November 2008. Other fraternal twin births include Alicia and Jasmin Singerl born May 2006, and Ryan and Leo Gerth born July 2008 (not pictured), all providing proof of such genetic detail. The environment plays a secondary role in favoring certain combinations over others

            The Biblical viewpoint is that there is not a black race, white race, yellow race, etc. Instead, there are three distinct families or characteristics of man that make up the oldest Table of Nations in existence, which is a completely authentic statement of how the present world population originated and spread after the flood, as recorded in Genesis 10 of the Bible (a historical document itself). Here we learn the true divisions of mankind, indicating how the present population of the world came to be. The listing of Noah’s descendants is more theological than hereditary, so we must understand that Noah’s descendants existed because of his righteousness.
            Genesis chapter 10 describes how the present world population was derived from Noah’s three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth, and their wives (three family groups). Verse 32 states, “From these the nations spread out over the earth after the flood.” Additional references are given in 1 Chronicles chapter 1. Genesis 10 exactly names 16 grandsons of Noah, and then we are provided further details of the Babel dispersion (Genesis 11) where their descendants fanned out over the earth and established the various nations of the ancient world. The number of descendants of Noah (grandsons, great-grandsons, etc.) mentioned are 26 from Shem, 30 from Ham, and 14 from Japheth, totaling 70 “sons” or “nations.” These 70 nations are the descendants (generations, genealogies or family histories) of the sons of Noah, known from Hebrew antiquity (Talmudic tradition of seventy nations in the world), and other ancient sources. Most, if not all, tribes and nations can be traced to these men through their descendants. Chapter 10 describes the differentiation of nations, and asserts that we were all descended from Noah. It is important to understand that people and nations are referred to in a genealogical form (common in Hebrew and other Semitic languages). We find genealogical references in Genesis 10 are firstly to persons or families (ethnological), and secondly to nations or tribes (ethnographical); thus, the chapter ends with an emphasis on nations or tribes, which helps us understand in following chapters where they settled or “spread out over the earth” (geographical). We must acknowledge the early reality of inter-family marrying as individual family groups were established. This would later define skin color and other unique features within various subgroups and their subsequent populations. They began as hunter-gatherers and/or pastoral nomads (living off the land as they migrated).

            Evidence shows that Noah’s sons kept together at first, then broke up into small groups and eventually arrived from the east in the southern Mesopotamian Plain (Gen. 11:2). The descendants of Elam, the first born son of Shem, were the first people to enter Mesopotamia. Susa, the capital city of the Elamites (Shemitic Elamites), gave rise to other early cities, such as Al-Ubaid (which later gave rise to Hamitic settlements—including the Sumerian civilization) and Jemdet Nasr. Recent excavations have provided very strong evidence of direct cultural links between some of the earliest cities in Babylonia and the lowest layers uncovered at Susa. These people established themselves first in the south and gradually spread toward the north, but without losing the cultural links. There are no known modern descendants of the Elamites. Other excavations have shown that one of the first Hamitic groups, the Sumerians, gave rise to considerable cultural advance and power in that region. Other people groups known very early included the Japhethites, noted especially for their fairness of skin, in the hill country east of the Tigris. Soon the great tower of Babel arose.

            Further evidence indicates that the rulers of the City of Babel attempted to avert dispersal of the people by proposing the building of a monument as a visible rallying point on the flat plain of Mesopotamia. Scripture and historical texts note that the tower of Babel, the building of which Nimrod (a Sumerian) supervised, was to have two great significances. The city of Babel would become the metropolis of the world and unite its inhabitants under the dictatorial rule of Nimrod. The tower was to be a monument to man to stand as a symbol of Babel. Given the present knowledge of Babel history, Genesis 11 has a solid historical foundation in early Mesopotamia. Nimrod hoped to prevent the people from scattering abroad into colonies as God intended, thus bringing upon themselves a judgment which led to confusion of the languages and rapid scattering throughout the earth. Babel means confusion. Urbanization, as attested by archaeological records, did not occur until after the dispersal of languages. The history of linguistic development and settlement patterns in Mesopotamia support this. There are dozens of unclassified and isolate languages throughout the world, such as Basque, Ainu and Ticuna, which testify to the widespread language distribution at Babel. The name Babel would be preserved as Babylon, a future world empire. We can safely conclude that all people in the world are descended from the inhabitants of Babel, the first civilization after Noah’s flood. From there the great empires of the past arose, including Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Greece, and all have strong historical links to the sons of Noah.

            We can find validation from research scientists who study human genetics. They claim that lineages derived from known people groups did in fact appear to have migrated from the “Near East”, “Middle East” or “Mesopotamia” (also called the “Cradle of Civilization” or the “Cradle of Mankind”) sometime during prehistory. This information is derived from DNA haplogroups. Haplogroups are used in DNA tests for markers that give a broad or regional picture; haplotypes are one person’s results on various DNA tests. Data comes from either Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) passed down from a father, or mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) passed down from a mother. Both can be used to define genetic populations from one generation to the next intact. Here we attest there was a first pair, Adam and Eve. Scientists have traced the mitochondrial DNA in all living humans back to a single female, and similarly, genetic markers in all males in the world today can be traced back to a single male. Y-chromosome Adam and mitochondrial Eve are connected to everyone now living by an unbroken father-to-son or mother-to-daughter line (including everyone else in their generations who’s ancestors are connected through one or more father-to-daughter or mother-to-son links). Haplogroup classifications are based on identification of genetic markers which a population of individuals share, passed down from an ancient but common ancestor. These genetic markers are evolving as new markers are found, sometimes resulting from occasional mutations to DNA.

            A majority of scholars and Bible historians agree that most of the descendants of Shem stayed in the Middle East, and Shem’s descendants are well documented. These include the Hebrews, Persians and Assyrians. Modern day Arabs and Jews trace their lineage to Shem. Many Arabic nomad tribes still claim they descended from Shem. The descendants of Shem (Shemites) are often called Semites, a term first used in the late 18th century for peoples listed in the Bible as descended from Shem. Today the term Semite refers to peoples who speak any of the Semitic languages, including the ancient peoples who inhabited Babylonia (Mesopotamia). Modern peoples speaking Semitic languages include the Arabs and Jews. Several centuries before the Christian Era, many ancient Semitic populations were migrating in large numbers from Arabia to Mesopotamia, the coasts of the Mediterranean Sea, and the Nile River delta. Jews and other Semites settled in villages in Judea (southern Palestine). Today, Semitic-speaking peoples are concentrated in the Middle East and northern Africa.

            The descendants of Ham include the Egyptians, Ethiopians, Canaanites, Phoenicians and Hittites. His descendants appear to be the first to fill the earth, as they were the early settlers of Africa, Asia, Australia, the South Pacific and the Americas. The descendants of Japheth migrated into Europe and parts of Central Asia. The Greeks, Romans, Spanish, Celts, Scythians and Medes were Japheth’s descendants. Some people groups merged to form one nation, as did the Persians (Shem) and the Medes (Japheth), which later became the Medo-Persian empire. We also find that many nations or peoples were named after an ancestor. Romans, and their capital city, were named after Romulus. Israelis and their country are named after their forefather, Israel. The observable fact of attaching the name of a leader to his people and his empire appears often in Ancient Near Eastern history. The Table of Nations in Genesis 10 illustrates this principle, whereby every land was named after its first successful settler: Canaanites were named after Ham’s son, Canaan, and so on.

            Note that the many names of family groups and nations listed here naturally follow well-established rules in the development of language, and the transfer of words between languages of a different family or nation. Letters may be transposed, endings added, prefixes taken away or added, but the basic root persists to help trace the spread of the peoples of the earth. For example, the ancient city of Unuk (in the Bible is the first city ever built, equated with Enoch), later appears as Uruk and Erech, then as Wark or Warka by the Sumerians, and finally appears in Greek as Purgos or Pergos. The conversion of “wark” into “purg-” shows the transfer of words between languages of a different family.

            Interestingly enough, purg- becomes burgh in modern Indo-European languages, which is the root of the English word, borough. Several examples of this are below, specifically in the lines of Japheth. The three sons of Noah and their descendants listed below are not in any particular order. From Babel the three families of man would populate the earth, and here we have the beginnings of all people groups through Shem, Ham and Japheth:

            Shem. Also Sem. Literal meanings are named or renown (father of the Semitic people groups – Shemites). The sons of Shem were:

            (1) Elam “eternity”(sons were Shushan, Machul and Harmon) – (Elamites, Indians, Persians);

            (2) Asshur “a step” or “strong” (sons were Mirus and Mokil) – (Assyrians/Northern Iraqis);

            (3) Arphaxad “I shall fail” (sons were Shelach, Anar and Ashcol) – (Chaldeans/Southern Iraqis, Hebrews/Israelites/Jews1, Arabians/Bedouins, Moabites/Jordanians/Palestinians, and related groups);

            (4) Lud “strife” (sons were Pethor and Bizayon) – (Ludim, Lubim, Ludians, Ludu, Lydians, Chubs, other related groups in Asia Minor and North Africa);

            (5) Aram “exalted” (sons were Uz, Chul, Gather and Mash) – (Aramaeans/Syrians, Lebanese, other related groups), and remnant groups throughout Asia, the Middle East, and North Africa.

            1Hebrews descended from Eber (Heber), a great-grandson of Shem. Six generations after Heber, Abram (Abraham) was born, so Abraham was both a Hebrew and a Semite, born of the line of Heber and Shem. Ishmael and Isaac were born of Abraham. However, Ishmael was born of an unlawful union between Abraham and his Egyptian maid Hagar (Genesis 16, Galatians 4), making Ishmael half Semitic and half Hamitic. Sunnite Arabs (specifically Arabian Muslims) consider themselves to be descendants of Ishmael, often calling themselves Ishmaelites, and thus are both Semitic Hebrews and Hamites. To this day the descendents of Ishmael (Arabs) and his half-brother brother Isaac (Israelites) have fought over which family group is Abraham’s true spiritual heir, specifically relating to ownership of land in the Middle East. Thus, there has been an unsolvable problem, and the nation of Israel is progressively being forced to give up land for peace.

            Isaac was born to Abraham and his lawful wife Sarah (Gen. 17, 18 & 21). Isaac had twin sons named Esau and Jacob. Esau was firstborn, and so had the right to inheritance (as was custom), but instead sold his birthright to Jacob during a time of hunger. Esau’s name was changed to Edom, and Jacob’s name was changed to Israel. The descendants of Esau (Edom) became known as Edomites, and the descendants of Jacob (Israel) became known as Israelites. Jacob fathered 12 sons which became the twelve tribes of Israel. Those who interchange the words “Jew” and Israelite, call Abraham a Jew, though Abraham was neither an Israelite or a Jew. The word “Jew” was not used in the Bible until nearly 1,000 years after Abraham. One of Jacob’s (Israel’s) children was Judah (Hebrew “Yehudah”). His descendants were called Yehudim (“Judahites”). In Greek the name is Ioudaioi (“Judeans”). Most all Bible translations use the word “Jew,” which is a modern, shortened form of the word “Judahite.” A “Jew” in the Old Testament would be a “Judahite;” and a “Jew” in the New Testament would be a “Judean.”

            A bitter rivalry between the descendants of Esau and Jacob continued throughout history, and as they lived in close proximity for hundreds of years, their hatred worsened. The Romans referred to the Edomites as Idumeans, separate from Israelites, when they lived in the region of Palestine together. The Romans later divided Palestine into districts, with Idumea (land of Edomites) being one of the districts. As the Roman Empire faded, Idumea was divided again into Northern Idumea, and the region fell to an Ishmaelite (Arabian) Muslim army led by Caliph Umar in 638 A.D. Historians suggest the remaining Edomites embraced Islam at that time and remained in the land, blending with the Arabs, and uniting against the Israelites.

            Jerusalem soon became a focal point for the Muslims (Moslems), being the third most holy city of Islam, after the cities of Mecca and Medina (though Jerusalem is never mentioned in the Koran, it is mentioned over 800 times in the Bible). By 691 A.D., the Mosque of Omar (also called the “Dome of the Rock”) was completed on the Temple Mount, where Muslims believe Mohammed ascended to heaven from. The Arabic term for the holy place is “al-Haram as-Sharif” meaning “The Noble Sanctuary.” To Israelites and Jews, Jerusalem was the city of the great prophets and the capital of the Kingdom of Israel and Judah under King David and his son King Solomon. The first and second temples were the center of worship until the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 A.D. Christians revere the city as the place where Jesus Christ taught in the temple, and was later crucified. Christians believe that Jesus will return to establish His Kingdom at the Temple Mount with Jerusalem as world capital.

            Still confused? Here’s a simple patriarchal chart, beginning with Noah, showing how these family groups came to be:

            Noah
            |
            Shem–>Eber–>Terah
            |
            ————–|—-
            | | |
            Abram Nahor Haran
            | |
            |———-| Lot
            Isaac Ishmael |——————-
            | | | |
            |——| |—>ArabsArabs<—————-
            |
            Israelites & Jews

            Ham. Also Cham or Kham. Literal meanings are passionate, hot, burnt or dark (father of the Australoid, Negroid and Mongoloid people groups – Hamites). He was the progenitor of:

            (1) Cush "black" (sons were Seba, Havilah, Sabta, Raama and Satecha) – also Chus, Kush, Kosh, Cushaean (Cushites, Nubians, Ethiopians, Ghanaians, Africans, Bushmen, Pygmies, Australian Aborignies, New Guineans, other related groups);

            (2) Mizraim "double straits" (sons were Lud, Anom, Pathros, Chasloth and Chaphtor) – also Masr, Misr, Misraim, Mitzraim, Mizraite, Mitsrayim (Egyptians1, Khemets, Copts, other related groups);

            (3) Phut "a bow" (sons were Gebul, Hadan, Benah and Adan) – also Punt, Puta, Put, Puni, Phoud, Pul, Fula, Putaya, Putiya, Libia, Libya (Libyans, Cyrenacians, Tunisians, Berbers, Somalians, Sudanese, North Africans, other related groups);

            (4) Canaan "down low" (sons were Zidon, Heth, Amori, Gergashi, Hivi, Arkee, Seni, Arodi, Zimodi and Chamothi) – also Canaanites, Cana, Chna, Chanani, Chanana, Canaana, Kana, Kenaanah, Kena'ani, Kena'an, Kn'nw, Kyn'nw, Kinnahu, Kinahhi, Kinahni, Kinahna, Kinahne (Mongols, Asians, Orientals, Chinese, Tibetans, Taiwanese, Thais, Vietnamese, Laotians, Cambodians, Japanese, Eskimos, American Indians3, Malayasians, Indonesians, Filipinos, Hawaiians, Maoris, Polynesians, Tahitians, Guamanians, Samoans, Fijians, Tongans, Tokelauans, Tuvaluans, Pacific Islanders4 and related groups).

            Tribes in other parts of Africa, Arabia and Asia, aboriginal groups in Australia, native Pacific Islanders, American Indians and Eskimos were birthed from descendants of Canaan, Cush, Mizraim and Phut.

            Looking at history, whichever region is considered, Africa, Europe, Australia, or America, the major migrations have always been from Asia. In every area of the world where Japhethites have subsequently settled, they have always been preceded by Hamites. This pattern applies in every continent. In early historic times the circumstance seems always to be true, the earliest fossil remains of man being Mongoloid or Negroid in character and in head shape, whereas those that came last belong to the family of Japheth (Caucasoid). When we study ancient history and technological achievements, which were in many ways the equal of, or superior of, much that we have today, we find Hamitic people showed an amazing adaptability to the world in which they founded, and carried to a high technological proficiency their societies. Their achievements were exploited by Japhetic and Semitic peoples, who became great scientific discoverers. The Hamitic migrations indicate they sought a way of life, not an understanding or a control of nature beyond what was immediately useful. A majority of Ham's descendants were not negroid. Genesis 10:15-20 records that of the 32 descendants of Ham, four settled in unknown places, 23 settled in the Middle East and five settled in Africa. Archeologists tell us that no groups inhabiting the Middle East in Biblical times were negroid. Many had brown, red and white racial characteristics. Ham's descendants appear to be the most varied of Noah's lineage.

            Ham's fourth born son was Canaan. Genesis 10:15-19 identifies a distinctive characteristic of the sons of Canaan: They liked to spread out. The Canaanites are specifically mentioned as migrating far and wide, "…and afterward the families of the Canaanites were spread abroad. The territory of the Canaanites extended from Sidon as you go toward Gerar, as far as Gaza; as you go toward Sodom and Gomorrah and Admah and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha." History indicates they did have a propensity for sprawl. The descendants of Canaan would later make up the vast populations of Asia, Africa and the Western Hemisphere.

            Epypt is one of the most frequently mentioned names in the Bible. Egypt is also synonymous with Mizraim. For example, Misr (Mizraim) is the Arabic name for Epypt. The name Egypt is thought to be derived from the name Hout ka-Ptah or Hi-ku-Ptah, both meaning the "Place of the Spirit of the god Ptah." The name was Hellenized by the Greeks, rendering Hi-ku-ptah as Ai-gu-ptos (Aiguptos), becoming the Latin Aegyptus, and later Egypt in modern English. The term Copt is also believed to be etymologically derived from this name. Hi-ku-Ptah was believed to be located in the capital city of Memphis. In the Bible, Memphis is called Moph or Noph.

            2Zidon (or Sidon) and his descendants settled on the Mediterranean coast of present-day Lebanon, then known as the land of Canaan. The Sidonians called themselves Kena'ani, or Canaanites (likely adopting the name from land of Canaan they newly inhabited). Interestingly, these "new" Canaanites came to speak a Semitic language, probably adopted from a large migration of Semites who came from land and sea, and introduced their language and a sophisticated maritime technology about 1800 B.C. Historians suggest these Canaanites succumbed to racial and linguistic intermixture with the invading Semites, which led to the loss of their own ethnic predominance, as evidenced by modern excavations. They eventually moved westward and occupied a very narrow coastal strip of the east Mediterranean, building new cities, and establishing significant trade with neighboring nations. In fact, the Israelite name for "Canaan" came to mean "traders," though some suggest the name Canaan is from the Hebrew name Hurrian, meaning "land of red purple."

            The Canaanites were known for their red and purple cloth (a purple dye was extracted from murex snails found near the shores of Palestine, a method now lost). The Greeks called the land of Canaan "Phoenicia," which meant "purple." The Phoenicians became a nation of great trade, language, and culture. Phoenician, Hebrew and Moabite were a group of west Semitic languages, all dialects from Canaan, as referred to in Isaiah 19:18. The writing system of the Phoenicians is the source of the writing systems of nearly all of Europe, including Greek, Russian, Hebrew, Arabic and the Roman alphabet. The Phoenician empire fell under Hellenistic rule after being conquered by Alexander the Great about 332 B.C. In 64 B.C. the name of Phoenicia disappeared entirely, becoming a part of the Roman providence of Syria. At the beginning of the Christian era, remaining Phoenicians were the first to accept the Christian faith after the Jews. Zidon's name is still perpetuated in the modern-day city of Sidon (Saidoon is the Phoenician name, Saida in Arabic) in southern Lebanon.

            3Evidence for diverse migrations into the Americas comes from research on living American Indian populations, which includes data from Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) that is passed down from a mother to her children from one generation to the next intact. These studies have consistently shown similarities (deep ancestry) between American Indians and recent populations in Asia, Siberia and northern Scandinavia. These groups include the Lapps in northern Europe/Scandinavia, the Chukchi and Yukaghir in Siberia, plus Indians and Eskimos/Aleuts throughout Canada and North America. There is a wealth of information on the genetic relationship between early Taiwanese populations and southeast Asian, Oceanic (South Pacific) and Native American descendants. Ancient American Indian skeletal remains show a range of physical attributes (round-headed) suggesting separate migrations of different populations from Asia and the South Pacific, representing 97 percent of all modern American Indian populations. What of the other 3 percent?

            There are exceptions. A 1998 DNA study conducted by the Center for Molecular Medicine, Emory University School of Medicine, Atlanta, GA discovered a mtDNA strain in roughly 3% of American Indians (Amerindians) called "Haplogroup X" which suggests a prehistoric migration of peoples to the Americas from the European theater. This genetic inheritance likely reflects transatlantic links since Haplogroup X is not found in Asians, demonstrating the DNA did not originate from those who arrived in the Americas via the Bering Strait. Other researchers conclude that these transatlantic migrations took place before the Asian migrations into Canada and North America. Some experts believe that Haplogroup X provides concrete evidence of European ancestry for certain Native Americans (noted below). This genetic inheritance likely reflects transatlantic links since Haplogroup X is not found in Asians, demonstrating the DNA did not originate from those who arrived in the Americas via the Bering Strait. For example, the Algonquian Indians (Mahicans/Ojibwe) have as high as 40 percent of Haplogroup X, and their distant relatives, the Siouan family of tribes (Sioux), have as high as 15 percent of the DNA. Experts suggest a large amount of gene flow occurred between Algonquian- and Siouan-speaking groups, consistent with archaeological and linguistic evidence. These tribes, initially arriving along the eastern shores of North America, migrated deep inland, also north into Canada. They are the popular red-skinned tribes having a long-head shape similar to that of early Italic peoples in Europe. They are thought to be descendants of Canaanites (Phoenicians) who intermarried with Indo-Europeans while migrating across Europe, and subsequently sailing to North America.

            Having been the largest group of Native Americans in the United States, their DNA stretched across America, though very sparse further west. According to tradition, they populated the Carolinas then migrated to the regions of Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, and eventually Minnesota and the Dakotas. Many of these tribes had fortified villages similar to ancient Canaanites (who lived along the coast of the Mediterranean Sea, including parts of Egypt and the Jordan Valley). Archaeological evidence shows they constructed towns and cities with small pyramids and vast road systems throughout the Mississippi Valley. With them came a tradition that is thought to be a reference to the wives of Noah and his three sons. Four women are identified as "mothers of origin" whose names (possibly Canaanite) have been preserved down through the generations (see name chart below). Additionally, there are striking similarities between the languages of ancient Egypt and those of the Native Americans that inhabited the areas around Louisiana about the time of Christ. Epigraphy experts have stated that the languages of the Attakapa, Tunica and Chitimacha tribes have affinities with Nile Valley (Egyptian) languages involving certain words associated with Egyptian trading communities of 2,000 years ago. Scholars note the Algonquian and Siouan peoples used pictographs and ideographic writing symbols that also have similarities with ancient Canaanites.

            Many groups migrated southwest into Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico and eventually Mexico, establishing the powerful Aztec tribes with their beautiful fortified cities, integrating with the Mayas (who had been there hundreds of years before, and thought of the Aztecs as barbarians). Likely there was a mixing of cultures as they migrated, as there was no conquest of the Maya world by the Aztecs; that title would be given to the Spaniards in the late 17th century. The Aztec's traditions and legends are largely ignored by modern scholars as myths and fables. The Aztecs, according to their own legends, departed from a region in the north called Chicomoztoc, a region that is today the areas of Texas, Oklahoma and New Mexico. Later establishing a city known as Aztlan, somewhere in north or northwest Mexico (now lost), their tribal name Aztec was born. Being nomadic, they eventually reached the valley of Mexico in the 12th century A.D. They were known as fearless warriors and pragmatic builders who raised an enormous city called Tenochtitlan, their capital city (now Mexico City).

            The Aztecs would later call themselves "Mexica" (where Mexico is derived), and their language, Nahuatl, was linguistically related to other native language groups throughout the U.S. southwest and northern Mexico. Linguists note, for instance, the Shoshoni language in the Utah-Nevada region was understood by all the tribes from Mexico, without difficulty. Other related tribes included the Paiute, Hopi, Pima, Yaqui/Apache, Tepehuan, Kiowas and Mayos. Catholic missionaries in the 1850's established the fact that all of those peoples were of one language family. While there are other examples of language similarities, studies of the native languages of the Americas have shown them to be extremely diverse, representing nearly two hundred distinct families, some consisting of a single isolated language.

            Pacific Islanders have a diverse and unique history. These oceanic peoples of the South Pacific, whom we know as Polynesians, Maoris, Tahitians, Samoans, Fijians, Tongans and others, have their roots in southern China. Prior to the Mongols establishing themselves in southern China, there were migrations of Negroid peoples from east Africa and the Sahara. A number of African cultures kept documents and ancient texts, as well as strong oral history and legends, of migrations to ancient China from Africa. Mongol groups later migrated into southern China, resulting in a mixing of cultures. Southern China is thought to have first come into being out of the mixture of Mongoloids and Negroids. These peoples were likely driven out by other aggressive Mongoloids. Being master seafarers, they sailed into Polynesia and the surrounding region, populating the islands of the South Pacific.

            The vast aggregate of peoples who are generally classified as Mongoloid, who settled the Far East, have been a question as to where they fall into the Table of Nations. Evidence shows they are Hamitic, even though some have incorrectly reasoned that the Chinese were of Japhetic stock, and the Japanese were either Japhetic or Semitic. There are two names which provide clues. Two of Canaan's sons, Heth (Hittites) and Sin (Sinites), are presumed to be the progenitors of Chinese and Mongoloid stock. The Hittites were known as the Hatti or Chatti. In Egyptian monuments the Hittite peoples were depicted with prominent noses, full lips, high cheekbones, hairless faces, varying skin color from brown to yellowish and reddish, straight black hair and dark brown eyes. They battled the Egypitan armies of Ramses II in the 13 century B.C., then disappeared forever from history.

            The term Hittite in Cuneiform (the earliest form of writing invented by the Sumerians) appears as Khittae* representing a once powerful nation from the Far East known as the Khitai, also in Hebrew as Khettai, and has been preserved through the centuries in the more familiar term, Cathay. The Cathay were Mongoloids, considered a part of early Chinese stock. There are links between the known Hittites and Cathay, for example, their modes of dress, their shoes with turned-up toes, their manner of doing their hair in a pigtail, and so forth. Representations show them to have possessed high cheekbones, and craniologists have observed that they had common characteristics of Mongoloids.

            *Khittae has, at times, been incorrectly associated with Kittim or Chittim (Greek Kition, Roman Citium, Jewish Cethimus), son of Javan, son of Japheth. Kittim is also the Biblical name for modern-day Cyprus. Javan is the Hebrew word for Greece, appearing five times in the Old Testament. Interestingly enough, Javan has been incorrectly interpreted to mean Japan. History distinctly shows Javan to be the ancestor of the Greeks and other related Mediterranean people groups.

            Sin (or Seni), a brother of Heth, has many occurrences in variant forms in the Far East. There is one significant feature concerning the likely mode of origin of Chinese civilization. The place most closely associated by the Chinese themselves with the origin of their civilization is the capital of Shensi, namely, Siang-fu (Father Sin). Siang-fu appears in Assyrian records as Sianu. Today, Siang-fu can be loosely translated, "Peace to the Western Capital of China." The Chinese have a tradition that their first king, Fu-hi or Fohi (Chinese Noah), made his appearance on the Mountains of Chin, was surrounded by a rainbow after the world had been covered with water, and sacrificed animals to God (corresponding to the Genesis record). Sin himself was the third generation from Noah, a circumstance which would provide the right time interval for the formation of early Chinese culture. In addition, the Miao tribe of southwest China had a tradition similar to the Genesis account, even before they met Christian missionaries. According to their tradition, God destroyed the whole world by a flood because of the wickedness of man, and Nuah (Noah) the righteous man and his wife, their three sons, Lo Han (Ham), Lo Shen (Shem), and Jah-hu (Japheth) survived by building a very broad ship and taking on it pairs of animals.

            There is strong evidence that suggests early Chinese knew of the God of the Bible. There are accounts described in the "Shu Jing" (Book of History), compiled by Confucius, where it is recorded that Emperor Shun (ruled from about 2256 B.C. to 2205 B.C. when the first recorded dynasty began) that he worshiped and sacrificed a bull to "ShangDi." ShangDi literally means "Heavenly Ruler." Linguists point out that ShangDi, Creator-God of the Chinese, is the phonetic equivalent to El Shaddai, Creator-God of the Hebrews. About 700 B.C., the early Zhou pronunciation of ShangDi was "djanh-tigh" (Zhan-dai). The bull was sacrificed at an annual ceremony called a "Border Sacrifice," a rite that did not end until 1911 when the last emperor was deposed. Additionally, recitations from the ancient rite parallel several Bible passages, including the creation account in Genesis. Scholars who have analyzed the most ancient forms of these pictographic Chinese writings (graphic symbols called ideograms), which date from before the time of Moses, have the entire story of creation, the temptation, the fall of man into sin, and God's remedy for sin in the animal sacrifices, which pointed to the coming Savior, Jesus Christ. All the elements of the Genesis narrative are found recorded, and still in use, in Chinese character-writing. This confirms the idea that the ancient Chinese incorporated their early knowledge of Genesis into their written language.

            History has much to say about the descendants of Sin (Seni/Sino) who came from the Far East to trade. They were called Sinæ (Sin) by the Scythians. Ptolemy, a Greek astronomer, referred to China as the land of Sinim or Sinæ. Reference to the Sinim in Isaiah 49:12 notes they came "from afar," specifically not from the north and not from the west. Arabs called China Sin, Chin, Mahachin, Machin. The Sinæ were spoken of as a people in the remotest parts of Asia. For the Sinæ, the most important town was Thinæ, a great trading emporium in western China. The city Thinæ is now known as Thsin or simply Tin, and it lies in the province of Shensi. Much of China was ruled by the Sino-Khitan Empire (960-1126 A.D.), which Beijing became the southern capital. The Sinæ became independent in western China, their princes reigning there for some 650 years before they finally gained dominion over the whole land.

            In the third century B.C., the dynasty of Tsin became supreme. The word Tsin itself came to have the meaning of purebred. This word was assumed as a title by the Manchu Emperors and is believed to have been changed into the form Tchina. From there the term was brought into Europe as China, probably from the Ch'in or Qin dynasty (255-206 B.C.). The Greek word for China is Kina (Latin is Sina). As well, Chinese and surrounding languages are part of the Sino-Tibetan language family. Years ago, American newspapers regularly carried headlines with reference to the conflict between the Chinese and Japanese in which the ancient name reappeared in its original form, the Sino-Japanese war. Sinology refers to the study of Chinese history.

            With respect to the Cathay people of historical reference, it would make sense to suppose that the remnants of the Hittites, after the destruction of their empire, traveled towards the east and settled among the Sinites who were relatives, contributing to their civilization, and thus becoming the ancestors of the Asian people groups. They are found together in major historical events that formed the Chinese nation and its people. Still others migrated throughout the region and beyond, making up present-day Mongoloid races in Asia and the Americas. The evidence strongly suggests that Ham's grandsons, Heth (Hittites/Cathay) and Sin (Sinites/China), are the ancestors of Mongoloid peoples.

            There are many native African tribes which trace themselves back traditionally to Ham. The Yoruba, who are black skinned, for example, claim to be descendants of Nimrod, son of Cush, whereas the Libyans, who are much lighter skinned, are traced back to Phut (Phut is the Hebrew name for Libya). Ethiopians still trace their ancestry back to Cush. To this day Cush has many tribal and ethnic designations in Africa and Arabia. The Egyptians were direct descendants of Mizraim (Mizraim is the Hebrew name for Egypt). Today, "Misr" is the name Egyptians use to refer to their country. Ancient Egyptians have been considered the greatest technicians in all human history. Other African groups trace their roots back to Ham or one of his descendants. It is therefore suggested that all of Africa, despite the different shades of color of its native populations, was initially settled by various members of this one Hamitic family. In the course of time, some of these people groups had migrations to Australia, Melanesia, New Guinea and the surrounding region. For example, there is evidence of similarities in the form of horticulture found in the Sahara and in Papua New Guinea. Recent studies from archaeology have discovered there was once extensive trade between east Africa and New Guinea.

            The evidence appears to point consistently in the same direction, supporting that not only Africa with its black races, but the Far East, the Americas, Australia and the Oceanic nations with their colored races were all descendants of Ham. The Hamitic people were the first to reach the far and distant lands of the world, preparing the way for the future. Their inventions and discoveries made a significant impact on the world, and provided inspiration for those to follow.

            Japheth. Also Diphath. Literal meanings are opened, enlarged, fair or light (father of the Caucasoid/Indo-Europoid, Indo-European, Indo-Germanic, or Indo-Aryan people groups – Japhethites). Japheth is the progenitor of seven sons:

            (1) Gomer "complete" (sons were Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah) – also Gamir, Gommer, Gomeri, Gomeria, Gomery, Goth, Guth, Gutar, Götar, Gadelas, Galic, Gallic, Galicia, Galica, Galatia, Gael, Galatae, Galatoi, Gaul, Galls, Goar, Celt, Celtae, Celticae, Kelt, Keltoi, Gimmer, Gimmerai, Gimirra, Gimirrai, Gimirraya, Kimmer, Kimmeroi, Kimirraa, Kumri, Umbri, Cimmer, Cimmeria, Cimbri, Cimbris, Crimea, Chomari, Cymric, Cymry, Cymru, Cymbry, Cumber (Cimmerians, Caledonians, Picts, Milesians, Umbrians, Helvetians, Celts1, Galatians, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Goths, Vandals, Scandinavians, Jutes, Teutons, Franks, Burgundians, Alemanni, Germans, Belgians, Dutch, Luxembourgers, Liechensteiners, Austrians, Swiss, Angles, Saxons, Britons, English, Cornish, Irish, Welsh, Scots, French, and other related groups);

            (2) Magog "land of Gog" (sons were Elichanaf, Lubal, Baath, Jobhath and Fathochta) – also Gog, Cog, Gogh, Gogue, Gogarene, Jagog, Yajuj, Majuj, Juz, Majuz, Agag, Magug, Magogae, Magogue, Ma-Gogue, Mugogh, Mat Gugi, Gugu, Gyges, Bedwig, Moghef, Magogian, Massagetae, Getae, Dacae, Sacae, Saka, Scyth, Skythe, Scythi, Scythii, Scythini, Scythia, Scythae, Sythia, Scythes, Skuthai, Skythai, Cathaia, Scythia, Skythia, Scynthia, Scynthius, Sythian, Skudra Sclaveni, Samartian, Sogdian, Slovon, Skodiai, Scotti, Skolot, Skoloti, Scoloti, Skolo-t, Skoth-ai, Skoth, Skyth, Skuthes, Skuth-a, Slavs, Ishkuzai, Askuza, Askuasa, Alani, Alans, Alanic, Ulan, Uhlan (Scythians, Scots); also Rasapu, Rashu, Rukhs, Rukhs-As, Rhos, Ros, Rosh, Rox, Roxolani, Rhoxolani, Ruskolan, Rosichi, Rhossi, Rusichi, Rus, Ruska, Rossiya, Rusian (Russians4, Belarusians, Ukrainians, Chechens, Dagestanis); also Mas-ar, Mas-gar, Masgar, Mazar, Madj, Madjar, Makr-on, Makar, Makaroi, Merkar, Magor, Magar, Magyar (Hungarians – also Huns, Hungar, Hunugur, Hurri, Gurri, Onogur, Ugor, Ungar, Uhor, Venger); Yugoslavians, Finns, Lapps, Estonians, Siberians, Voguls, Poles, Czechs, Croatians, Bosnians, Montenegrins, Mordvins, Serbians, Slovenians, Slovakians, Karelians, Komi-Zyrians, Udmurts, Izhorians, Livonians, Bulgarians, Avars, Tartars, Turks, Colchi, Armenians, Georgians and other related groups).

            (3) Madai "middle land" (sons were Achon, Zeelo, Chazoni and Lotalso) – also Mada, Amada, Madae, Madea, Manda, Maday, Media, Madaean, Mata, Matiene, Mitani, Mitanni, Minni, Megala (Medes, Aryans, Persians, Parsa, Parsees, Achaemenians, Manneans, Caspians, Kassites, Iranians, Achaemenians, Kurds, north and NW Indians, Romani, Pathans, Hazaras), including the peoples of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Azerbaijan, Khazachstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikstan and Kyrgyzstan, and other related groups;

            (4) Javan "miry" (sons were Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim and Dodanim) – also Jevanim, Iewanim, Iawan, Iawon, Iamanu, Iones, Ionians, Ellas, Ellines, El-li-ness, Hellas, Hellenes, Yavan, Yavanas, Yawan, Yuban, Yauna, Uinivu, Xuthus (Grecians, Greeks, Elysians, Spartans, Dorians, Tartessians, Britons6, Aeolians, Achaeans, Myceneans, Macedonians, Albanians, Carthaginians, Cyprians, Cypriots, Cretans, Latins, Venetians, Sicanians, Italics, Romans7, Valentians, Sicilians, Cilicians, Italians, Spaniards, Portugese, other related groups);

            (5) Tubal "brought" (sons were Ariphi, Kesed and Taari) – also Tabal, Tabali, Tubalu, Thobal, Thobel (Thobelites, Iberoi, Ibers, Iberians, Ivernians, Irish8, Spanish, other related groups), Tbilisi, Tibarenoi, Tibareni, Tibar, Tibor, Sabir, Sapir, Sabarda, Subar, Subartu, Tobol, Tobolsk (Cossacks, Samoyeds, Siberians, other related groups);

            (6) Meshech "drawing out" (sons were Dedon, Zaron and Shebashnialso) – Me'shech, Mes'ek, Meshekh, Meshwesh, Meskhi, Meschera, Mushch, Muschki, Mushki, Mishi, Muski, Mushku, Musku, Muskeva, Muska, Muskaa, Muskai, Maskali, Machar, Maskouci, Mazakha, Mazaca, Mtskhetos, Modar-es, Moskhi, Moshkhi, Mosah, Mosher, Moshch, Moschis, Mosoch, Moschi, Moschian, Moshakian, Mo'skhoi, Moschoi, Mosochenu, Mosochean, Mossynes, Mosynoeci, Moskva, Moscovy, Moscow (Muscovites, Latvians, Lithuanians, Romanians, other related groups);

            (7) Tiras "desire" (sons were Benib, Gera, Lupirion and Gilak) – also Tiracian, Thracian, Thirasian, Thiras, Thuras, Tyritae, Thrasus, Thrace, Trausi, Tereus, Trecae, Troas, Tros, Troia, Troiae, Troyes, Troi, Troy, Troya, Trajan, Trojan, Taunrus, Tyras, Tyrsen, Tyrrhena, Illyrian, Ilion, Ilium, Rasenna, Tursha, Tusci, Tuscany, Etruria, Etruschi, Etruscan, Eturscan, Euskadi, Euskara (Basque9), Erul, Herul, Heruli, Erilar, Vanir, Danir, Daner, Aesar, Aesir, Asir, Svear, Svea, Svie, Svioner, Svenonian, Urmane, Norge (Leleges, Carians, Pelasgians, Scandinavians10, Varangians, Vikings, Swedes, Norwegians, Danes, Icelandics, Baltics, other related groups).

            The Japhetic people are, in general, the peoples of India and Europe (Indo-European stock), with which any demographer is familiar11.

            The whole Celtic race has been regarded as descended from Gomer, though history suggests modern Celts are descended from both Gomer and Magog. Archaeologists and ethnologists agree that the first Indo-European group to spread across Europe were Celts. The Irish Celts claim to be to the descendants of Magog, while the Welsh Celts claim to be to the descendants of Gomer. Irish chronicles, genealogies, plus an extensive number of manuscripts which have survived from ancient times, reveal their roots. The Irish were descendants of Scythians, also known as Magogians, which is strongly supported by etymological evidence. Archaeological evidence shows that both the Celts (from Gomer) and Scythians (from Magog) freely shared and mingled cultures at their earliest stages. Russian and eastern European excavations plainly reveal the blending of these two groups. Their geographical locations (what is now eastern Europe, southern Russia and Asia Minor) were referred to by the Greeks under the name of Celto-Scythae, which was populated by the Celts to the south and west, and the Scythians to the north. The ancient Greeks first called the northern peoples by the general name of Scythae; but when they became acquainted with the nations in the west, they began to call them by the different names of Celts, including the Celto-Scythae. Celts and Scythians were considered essentially the same peoples, based on geography, though many independent tribes of Celts and Scythians existed. The Latins called them "Galli," and the Romans referred to them as "Gauls." Later names used by Greeks were the Galatai or Galatae, Getae, Celtae and Keltoi. In the third century before Christ (about 280 B.C.), the Gauls invaded Rome and were ultimately repelled into Greece, where they migrated into the north-central part of Asia Minor (Anatolia). Known as fiercely independent peoples, they conquered the indigenous peoples of that region and established their own independent kingdom. The land became known as Galatia. The Apostle Paul wrote his famous epistle to their descendants, the Galatians. Jewish historian Flavius Josephus wrote that the Galatians or Gauls of his day (93 A.D.) were previously called Gomerites.
            Early Celtic tribes (from Gomer) settled much of the European theater, including present-day Spain, France, England and Germany, prior to contact with Scythians. For many centuries France was called Gaul, after the Celtic descendants of Gomer, whom ceded the territory to Romans and Germanic/Teutonic Franks (whence France) in the 4th century A.D. Northwest Spain is called Galicia to this day. Some of the Gomerites migrated further to what is now called Wales. The Welsh claim their ancestors "first landed on the Isle of Britain from France, about three hundred years after the flood." The Celtic language survives intact today mainly in the two variants of Welsh and Irish/Scottish Gaelic. The Welsh call their language Gomeraeg (after Gomer). The Celts of today are descendants of Gomer, and of the blended tribes of Magog and Gomer.

            Present-day Germanic people groups are descendants of both Japheth and Shem, and there are several references from recent and ancient history. Recent history records the descendants of Gomer migrated and settled in the region that is now northern Europe (Germany and Scandinavia). These tribes became the Goths, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Teutons and Burgundians, descendants of some of the first peoples to migrate to northern Europe from ancient times—the Askaeni. The Askaeni were descendants of Ashkenaz, son of Gomer, son of Japheth. When the Askaeni arrived in northern Europe, they named the land Ascania after themselves, which later translated Scandia, then Scandinavia. Later in history, we find the Askaeni being referred to as Sakasenoi, which became Sachsen, and finally Saxon. The Saxons played an large part in European and English history. Ashkenaz has been one of the most well preserved names throughout European history.

            Semitic peoples also migrated to central Europe (southern Germany, Austria and Switzerland). These people were the descendants of Asshur, son of Shem, where Germans originated. Asshur is well known in history as the father of the Assyrians. In the Aramaic language, "Aturaye" means Assyrian, and the land of the Assyrians is called "Atur," which became "Tyr" or "Teiw" by early Germanic peoples. Later, the name linguistically changes to "Ziu." Germans likely derived their identity and language from these ancestral names. The earliest known name of the German language was called "Diutisc," which later becomes Dietsch, Deutsch or Deutsche (what Germans call themselves today). Deutschland (land of the Deutsch) could be called "Asshurland." The Romans referred to the Deutschen as Teutons or Teutones. The Teutons were a tribe of Germans nearly wiped out by Romans in the second century B.C.

            The term "German" comes from Latin (Roman) sources. The Assyrians occupied a Mesopotamian city on the lower Tigris River called "Kir" and placed captive slaves there (also referenced in 2 Kings 16:9, Isaiah 22:5-6, Amos 1:5, 9:7). The city was populated by the Assyrians for many years, and the inhabitants became known as "Kir-man." The Assyrians (Kerman) were driven from their land shortly after their fall about 610 B.C. They migrated into central Europe where they were called "German" or "Germanni," a general name used by the Romans to represent all Assyrian tribes. The known Assyrian tribes were the Khatti (also, Chatti, Hatti and Hessian)—Chatti is still the Hebrew term for German, and Khatti was also used by the Romans to represent various Germanic tribes; the Akkadians (Latins called them Quadians); the Kassites (or Cossaei); and the Almani (or Halmani, Allemani was the Latin name). Almani or Almain were historical terms for Germans living in southern Germany.

            One of the earliest references to Gog is thought to come from Assyrian inscriptions in the 9th century B.C. referencing "Mat Gugi," meaning "country of the Gugu." Hesiod, considered the father of Greek didactic poetry and literature, identified Magog with the Scythians and southern Russia in the 7th century B.C., written prior the book of Ezekiel. Hesiod likely derived this from the Colchi people (a Thracian tribe) where, in their ancient Chaldaic language, described the region of southern Russia as "Gog-chasan" or "Gog-hasan" (Arabic "Gog-i-hisn") meaning "fortress of Gog" or "Gog's fort." There are scholars who also suggest that Gog and Magog, as a region, is where the name "Caucasus" originated. Certain scholars speculate the name "Caucasus" was derived from "Gog-chasan" which the Greeks translated as Gogasus or Caucasus. The Caucasus is generally considered the land between the Black and Caspian seas.

            Greek historian Herodotus, whom historians call "the father of history," mentions in the 5th century B.C. a people living around the Caucasus mountains called "Gargarians." Greek myth depicted the Gargarians as "Gorgons," which eventually became Gorgene or Gorgaene. He also wrote extensively about the descendants of Magog by their Greek name, the Scythians, about 150 years after Ezekiel. He wrote of "Royal Scythians" who ruled over all other Scythians of Scythia. Herodotus describes them as living in the territory north of the Black Sea, and that they terrorized the southern steppes of Russia beginning in the 10th century B.C. Numerous archaeological discoveries have confirmed Herodotus' reports in general, and his Scythian accounts in particular. Flavius Josephus, Jewish and Roman historian, continued with that reference in the 1st century A.D. when he records that Magogians were called "Scythians" by the Greeks. Philo, Greek and Jewish philosopher in the 1st century A.D., also identified Magog with southern Russia.

            The Gargarians show up again in Greek history. Strabo, early 1st century Greek historian, geographer and philosopher, famous for his 17-volume work Geographica which presented a descriptive history of people and places from different regions of the world known to his era, mentions "Gogarene" as a region in Iberia (present-day Armenia and Georgia). Scholars agree Gogarene is one of the best preserved names from Gog, which belonged to the Caucasian Iberian kingdom (present-day Armenia and Georgia) up to the 2nd century B.C. Aelius Herodianus, Greek and Roman scholar of antiquity, called the region "Goerene" in the 2nd century A.D. In the 5th century A.D., a viceroy in the region of old Armenia called himself Achoucha Gougarqtzi (Arshusha of Gogarene). In the 6th century A.D., geographer Stephanus of Byzantium referred to the region as Gogarene, and in the 7th century the region was known as Gougarq. Today it still exists as Gugark, a historical region in Armenia. As noted earlier, commentators suggest Georgia also derived its name from Gogarene, and today the Turkish name for Georgia is Gurgistan. In recent history, certain Georgians referred to themselves as "Gogi." Interestingly, a peculiar Skythian people, who appear at the end of the 4th century A.D., called the Geougen (also Jou-jan, Jeu-jen, Juan-juan or Jwen-jwen), emerging as a powerful empire in the region of Tartary (Mongolia). Scholars suggest they were a mixture of eastern Huns (Skythian) and Tungus (Manchu) peoples, who for a short time became a Central Asian group of historical importance. The empire of the Geougen lasted from the end of the 4th century A.D. to the middle of the 6th century.

            Magog's name is also preserved. Albius Tibullus, Latin poet in the 1st century B.C., mentions a people living on the River Tanais (present-day River Don) called "Magini" or "Magotis", whom scholars say were from the colonies of Magog. The Greeks called the area where the Magini lived along the Tanais, the "Maeotian marshes" where the river emptied into the Maeotian Lake (present day Sea of Azov). The marshes served as a checkpoint to the westward migration of nomad peoples from the steppe of Central Asia. The area was named after the Maitois or Maeotae people (as the Greeks and Latins called them) who lived around the Maeotian Lake or Sea. Jerome (who translated the Latin Vulgate), an Illyrian Christian apologist of the late 4th and early 5th centuries, affirms "the Jews of this age understood by Magog the vast and innumerable nations of Scythia, about Mount Caucasus, and the Palus Maeotis (Latin for Maeotis Sea), and stretching along the Caspian Sea to India." Scholars suggest that at the early stages Magogites assimilated with Skythians, thus making up a part of the early Scythian hordes. In fact, wherever or whenever we see references to Gog and Magog in name or place, we also see the Skythians. Many of the mountains peaks in the Caucasian mountains and land areas there retained the place name "Gog" in medieval European and Armenian maps. Scholars also regard Gog and Magog as the wild tribes of Central Asia, including the Scythians, Alans, Parthians, Turks, Tartars, Mongols, and Huns, who had been making incursions on various kingdoms and empires from very ancient times. Russian traveller Jacob Reineggs, who visited the Caucasus five times in the 18th century, left many records of people groups he enountered. He discovered in the central Caucasus a people called Thiulet, who lived amidst mountains called Ghef or Gogh. The very highest of these mountains, lying to the north of their country, they knew by the name of Moghef or Mugogh. These place names are Gog and Magog derivatives.

            the Scythians are descended from Ashkenaz, son of Gomer, son of Japheth, and first appear in Assyrian records as "Askuza" or "Ishkuzai." The Assyrians tell of the Askuza as being involved in a revolt and pouring in from the north some time around the beginning of the 7th century B.C., which is also mentioned in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 51:27). The Askuza later became the Skythai (Scythians) of Herodotus. According to scholars, ancient peoples known as the Sarmatians (not to be confused with the Samaritans) and Alans lived in the area around the Caspian Sea from about 900 B.C. Sarmatian and Alani tribes were later called Scythians (Slav and Turkic peoples of today), who were also known as the Rukhs-As, Rashu, Rasapu, Rhossi, Rosh, Ros, and Rus. There is no debate that they were the inhabitants of southern Russia, and the existence of the names of rivers, such as the "Ros," refer to Rus populations. Much later, about 739 A.D., the word Rus appears again in eastern Europe, interestingly, from a different source. Finnish peoples referred to Swedes as "Ruotsi," "Rotsi" or "Rus" in contrast with Slavic peoples, which was derived from the name of the Swedish maritime district in Uppland, "Roslagen," and its inhabitants, called "Rodskarlar." Rodskarlar or Rothskarlar meant "rowers" or "seamen." Those Swedish conquerors (called Varangians [Vikings] by the Slavs), settled in eastern Europe, adopted the names of local tribes, integrated with the Slavs, and eventually the word "Rusi," "Rhos" or "Rus" came to refer to the inhabitants. Russia means "land of the Rus." Scholars continue to debate the origin of the word Rus, which has derived from two sources: the Ruotsi or Rhos, the Finnish names for the Swedes, and earlier from the Scythians known as Rashu or Rosh in southern Russia.

            The Aryans first come into historical view about a thousand years before Christ, invading India and threatening Babylonia. Historians of old reference an Aryan chief called Cyaxeres, king of the Medes and Persians. The Medes and Persians seem to have been tribes of one nation, more or less united under the rule of Cyaxeres. Elam (son of Shem) is the ancient name for Persia. Elamites are synonymous with Persians. The Persians are thus descended from both Elam, the son of Shem, and from Madai, the son of Japheth. The Medes and Persians had settled in what is now modern Persia, the Medes in the north, the Persians in the south. The most notable Persians of today are the Iranians. Interestingly, the word Iran is a derivative of Aryan. The Medo-Persian people groups are divided into hundreds of clans, some sedentary and others nomadic. All speak Indo-European languages, and some groups have pronounced Mongoloid physical characteristics and cultural traits, derived from Mongolian invasions and subsequent cultural integration. An example today would be the Uzbeks of Uzbekistan, and remnant groups living in Afghanistan and parts of Central Asia.

            The history of Britain can be traced back to the sons of Japheth. Historical evidence strongly suggests the first inhabitants of the British isles were the descendants of Javan (from his sons Elishah and Tarshish), and of Gomer and Magog. Gomerites are today's modern Welsh. Traditional Welsh belief is that the descendants of Gomer arrived about three hundred years after the flood, and the Welsh language was once called Gomeraeg. The Welsh (Celts) are thought to have created Stonehenge. Additionally, the descendants of Tarshish (Elishah&#0

          • SDC says

            Probably, Mad Mac does not even bother to go through the links and just copies and pastes truckloads of Jewish garbage. I am producing more excerpts from those links that I provided for his better understanding. “The table preserves the names of many ethnic peoples the Hebrews encountered or knew of through trade links. For example, Gen. 10: 16 mentions the Amorites, who were a historical Semitic population of Syria. Most modern scholars date Genesis to the 6th century BC, however it is most likely the authors were drawing from earlier Mesopotamian literary sources (Graves and Patai, 2004). The authors of the table constructed a fictional geneaology for all tribes appearing on the list, linking them all to one of Noah’s three sons: Shem, Ham or Japheth. As the distinguished Hebrew scholar Samuel Rolles Driver came to discover (1906: 112): “The nations and tribes existed [...] imaginary ancestors were afterwards postulated for the purpose of exhibiting pictorially the relationship in which they were supposed to stand towards one another.” In other words while the table contains genuine ethnographical content, the genealogies of tribes were entirely fabricated by the Hebrews. This is evident by the table itself, for example some tribes listed as having descended from Shem, were not in fact Semites, having spoken a non-Semitic language (Bromiley, 1995: 388): “The Elamites and Lydians (cf. Gen. 10:22) are not Semites in the modem classification, whereas the Amorites and Canaanites (which the Table of Nations considers to be descendants of Ham; cf. Gen. 10:15f.) are Semites”.

            I have pointed out to the anomalies regarding the supposed Chinese connection to Bible on a different blog.

            Also, do make it a point to go through the link I provided on the previous post and find out how the Aryan invasion/migration theory is being seriously questioned with recent findings in genetic studies. The AIT has been disproved and in fact mtDNA also supports the falsification of the controversial Aryan migration theory.

            Probably, you seem to be possessed by the Satan himself and hence this frenzied copy pasting overdrive. Loads of junk do not validate your argument. It is the cogency of arguments that matter. So, get your act together and no more copy-pasting irrelevant stuff please. It becomes extremely difficult to locate individual posts amidst such heaps of garbage. A link will suffice.

          • Mac says

            My friend,

            Let me tell you this secret. After the Noah’s flood, Samael/Satan brought forth demons for which Noah prayed (Book of Enoch/Book of Jubilees). Those demons brought idoltry and misled the people. Then, after Satan was defeated on the cross, he took 600 years to bring in another counter religion called Islam thru the schizophrenic Mohummad. His success was not upto the mark in both of his endeavours, so he brought atheism, a dangerous religion defying self existence of God and Satan himself. Atheism is a religion based on bad science and you are telling me to read the filthy material of a satanic religion and believe in it.

            You say that in 6th c. BC they wrote Genesis. Get a life! The history is recorded since the time of Adam. Enoch has become the scribe of God.

            This is the geneology of Adam’s descendents; (The dating system starts with the creation as year zero i.e. A.M. Anno Mundi “in the year of the world”).

            FIRST GENERATION
            1. The earth was created on 25 March, 4001 BC. Adam was created on Saturday the first day of Nisan in the year zero which was 31 March 4001 BC. Eve was more “made” than created so her date is unknown. She could have been formed on the sixth day or later but it is not worth arguing about. Adam and Eve were married that year in the Garden of Eden. Having been created by God to be perfect and to live for eternity they lost that position when they disobeyed God’s command. Because of their sin they were condemned to die. Adam and Eve were 130 years old when Seth was born. Adam died at the age of 930 years in the year 930. Adam and Eve had the following sons plus other sons and daughters:

            2 i. Cain. He killed his brother Abel and was banished. He married one of his sisters.
            3 ii. Abel. Dates for Cain and Able are unknown.
            +4 iii. Seth.

            SECOND GENERATION
            4. Seth was born in 130 and died in 1042. He was 105 years old when his son Enosh was born and he died at the age of 912 years:
            +5 i. Enosh.

            THIRD GENERATION
            5. Enosh was born in 235 and died in 1140. He was 90 years old when his son Kenan was born and he died at the age of 905 years:
            +6 i. Kenan (Cainan).

            FOURTH GENERATION
            6. Kenan (Cainan) was born in 325. He was 70 years old when Mahalalel was born and he died in 1235 at the age of 910:
            +7 i. Mahalalel.

            FIFTH GENERATION
            7. Mahalale was born in 395. He was 65 when his son Jared was born and he died in 1290 at the age of 895.
            +8 i. Jared.

            SIXTH GENERATION
            8. Jared was born in 460. He was 162 when his son Enoch was born and he died in 1422 at the age of 962.
            +9 i. Enoch.

            SEVENTH GENERATION
            9. Enoch was born in 622. He was 65 when Methuselah was born and he did not die but was taken up into heaven in 987 at the age of 365 years.
            +10 i. Methuselah.

            EIGHTH GENERATION
            10. Methuselah was born in 687. He was 187 years old when Lamech was born and he died in 1656, the year of the flood, at the age of 969 years.
            +11 i. Lamech.

            NINTH GENERATION
            11. Lamech was born in 874. He was 182 when his son Noah was born and he died in 1651 at the age of 777 years.
            +12 i. Noah.

            TENTH GENERATION
            12. Noah was born in 1056. Noah was 502 years old when Shem was born and he died in 2006 at the age of 950 years. During the time from Adam to Noah there was a tremendous increase in wickedness in the world. God decided to destroy the civilization of that day and build another one from Noah’s family. God commanded Noah to built a three deck boat to save his family and animals from the world wide flood. Only Noah, his wife, his three sons, and their wives were saved. The flood occurred in the year 1656 when Noah was 600 years old. According to Jewish tradition, Noah was married to Naamah the daughter of Lemach and Zillah, of the descendants of Cain. Her brother was Tubal-Cain a worker of bronze and iron. Noah and Naamah had the following children:
            +13 i. Japheth.
            +14 ii. Ham.
            +15 iii. Shem.

            ELEVENTH GENERATION
            13. Japheth, the first born son of Noah, had the following children. His birth and death dates are unknown.
            16 i. Gomer.
            17 ii. Magog.
            18 iii. Madai.
            19 iv. Javan.
            20 v. Tubal.
            21 vi. Meshech.
            22 vii. Tiras.

            14. Ham, the second son of Noah had the following children. His birth and death dates are unknown.
            23 i. Cush, the father of Nimrod.
            24 ii. Mizraim.
            25 iii. Put.
            26 iv. Canaan.

            15. Shem was born in 1560. Shem was 98 at the time of the flood. He was 100 when Arphaxad was born and died in 2160 at the age of 600 years. He had the following children:
            27 i. Elam, born in 1658.
            28 ii. Asshur, born in 1659.
            +29 iii. Arphaxad.
            30 iv. Lud.
            +31 v. Aram.

            TWELFTH GENERATION
            29. Arphaxad, the son of Shem, was born in 1660 in Shinar. He was 35 when his son Shelah was born and he died in 2098 at the age of 438 years.
            + ** Cainan
            +45 i. Shelah.

            31. Aram, the son of Shem, had the following children: His birth and death dates are unknown.
            46 i. Uz.
            47 ii. Hul.
            48 iii. Gether.
            49 iv. Meshech.

            THIRTEENTH GENERATION
            ** Cainan is listed in Luke’s genealogy as the son of Araphaxad and the father of Shelah but he is not listed in the Hebrew text of the Old Testament. He is listed in the Septuagint Version which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament. At the present time it is impossible to know how this name came to be listed. Was it accidentally added or dropped by the copiers of the text?

            45. Shelah was born in 1695 in Shinar. He was 30 when his son Eber was born and he died in 2128 in Shinar at the age of 433 years.
            +52 i. Eber.

            FOURTEENTH GENERATION
            52. Eber was born in 1725 in Shinar. During his life time God confused the languages and the people were divided. He was 34 when Peleg was born whose name means divided. The word “Hebrew” comes from Eber for he was the father of the Hebrew race. He died in 2189 in Shinar at the age of 464 years.
            +53 i. Peleg.
            +54 ii. Joktan.

            FIFTEENTH GENERATION
            53. Peleg was born in 1759 in Shinar. He was 30 when Reu was born and he died in 1998 in Mesha at the age of 239 years. Peleg’s birth in 1759 dates the tower of Babel.
            +55 i. Reu.

            54. Joktan had the following children: His dates of birth and death are unknown.
            56 i. Almodad.
            57 ii. Sheleph.
            58 iii. Hazarmaveth.
            59 iv. Jerah.
            60 v. Hadoram.
            61 vi. Uzal.
            62 vii. Diklah.
            63 viii. Obal.
            64 ix. Abimael.
            65 x. Sheba.
            66 xi. Ophir.
            67 xii. Havilah.
            68 xiii. Jobab.

            SIXTEENTH GENERATION
            55. Reu was born in 1789 in Mesha. He was 32 when his son Serug was born. He lived for 239 years and died in 2028 in Mesha.
            +69 i. Serug.

            SEVENTEENTH GENERATION
            69. Serug was born in 1821 in Mesha. He was 30 when his son Nahor was born. He lived to be 239 years old and died in 2051 in Mesha.
            +70 i. Nahor.

            EIGHTEENTH GENERATION
            70. Nahor was born in 1851 in Ur of Chaldea. He was 29 when Terah was born and he lived to be 148 years old and he died in 1999 in Ur of Chaldea.
            +71 i. Terah.

            NINETEENTH GENERATION
            71. Terah was born in 1880 in Ur of Chaldea. He was 70 when Abram, his youngest son was born. He lived to the age of 205 years and died in 2085 in Ur of Chaldea. He had the following children.
            +72 i. Haran.
            +73 ii. Nahor.
            +74 iii. Abram (Abraham).
            75 iv. Sarai (Sarah).

            ( = an ancestor of Jesus.)
            NINETEENTH GENERATION.
            71. Terah was born in 1880 in Ur of Chaldea. He was 70 when Abram, his youngest son, was born. He lived to the age of 205 years and died in 2085 in Ur of Chaldea. He had the following children.
            +72 i. Haran.
            +73 ii. Nahor.
            +74 iii. Abram (Abraham).
            +75 iv. Sarai (Sarah).

            20TH GENERATION.
            72. Haran was born in Ur of Chaldea. He had the following children and died in Ur of Chaldea.
            76 i. Iscah was born in Ur of Chaldea and died there.
            +77 ii. Lot.
            78 iii. Milcah.

            73. Nahor was born and died in Ur of Chaldea. He was married to Milcah (Number 78) his niece and the daughter of Haran in Ur of Chaldea. She was born and died in Ur of Chaldea. Nahor and Milcah had the following children, all born in Ur, Chaldea :
            79 i. Uz.
            80 ii. Buz.
            81 iii. Kemuel.
            82 iv. Kesed.
            83 v. Hazo.
            84 vi. Pildash.
            85 vii. Jidlaph.
            +86 viii. Bethuel.

            74. Abram (Abraham) was born in 1950 in Ur of Chaldea. He immigrated in 2025 to Canaan. He died in 2125 in Hebron, Canaan. He was buried in the Cave of Machpelah near Mamre. Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born and he died at the age of 175 years. He married Sarai (Sarah – Number 75) who was born in Ur of Chaldea. Her father was Terah and a half sister of Abraham. She died in Kiriath Arba (Hebron), Canaan. She was buried in the Cave of Machpelah near Mamre. She lived to be 127 years old. Abraham and Sarah had the following son:
            +87 i. Isaac.

            Abraham had a son by Hagar who was born in Egypt. Abram (Abraham) and Hagar had the following son:
            +88 i. Ishmael.

            Abraham also married Keturah and they had the following children all born in Beersheba, Canaan:
            89 i. Zimran .
            +90 ii. Jokshan.
            91 iii. Medan.
            +92 iv. Midian.
            93 v. Ishbak.
            94 vi. Shuah.

            21ST GENERATION.
            77. Lot, the son of Haran, was born in Ur of Chaldea and died in Zoar in Canaan. He had the following sons:
            95 i. Moab was born in Canaan. He was the father of the Moabites.
            96 ii. Ben-Ammi was born in Canaan. He became the father of the Ammonites.

            86. Bethuel was born in Ur of Chaldea. He died in Paddan Aram, Aramea and had the following children:
            +98 i. Laban.
            99 ii. Rebekah.

            87. Isaac was born in 2050 in The Negev, Canaan. He died in 2230 in Mamre (Hebron), Canaan at the age of 180 years. He was buried in the Cave of Machpelah near Mamre. He married Rebekah (Number 99) the daughter of Bethuel in 2090 in Canaan. Rebekah was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea. She died in Canaan and was buried in the Cave of Machpelah near Mamre. Isaac and Rebekah had twin sons:
            +100 i. Esau.
            +101 ii. Jacob.

            88. Ishmael was born in 2035 in Canaan. He died in 2172 in the Desert of Paran at the age of 137 years. His wife was from Egypt and they had the following children all born in the Desert of Paran:
            102 i. Nabaioth.
            103 ii. Kedar.
            104 iii. Adbeel.
            105 iv. Mibsam.
            106 v. Mishma.
            107 vi. Dumah.
            108 vii. Massa.
            109 viii. Hadad.
            110 ix. Tema.
            111 x. Jetur.
            112 xi. Naphish.
            113 xii. Kedemah.
            114 xiii. Basemath. She became the wife of Esau.

            90. Jokshan, the son of Abraham and Keturah, was born in Beersheba, Canaan and he had the following children:
            115 i. Sheba.
            116 ii. Dedan.

            92. Midian, the son of Abraham and Keturah, was born in Beersheba, Canaan and he had the following children:
            117 i. Ephah.
            118 ii. Epher.
            119 iii. Hanoch.
            120 iv. Adiba.
            121 v. Eldaah.

            22ND GENERATION.
            98. Laban, the son of Bethuel, was born and died in Paddan Aram, Aramea. He had the following two daughters plus other sons:
            122 i. Leah.
            123 ii. Rachel.

            100. Esau was born in 2110 in Beer Lahai Roi, Canaan and died in Seir, Edom. He married Adah of Canaan the daughter of Elon the Hittite. She died in Seir, Edom. Esau and Adah had the following son:
            124 i. Eliphaz.

            Esau also married Oholibamah of Canaan the daughter of Anah. She died in Seir, Edom. Esau and Oholibamah had the following sons who were born in Canaan and died in Seir, Edom:
            125 i. Jeush.
            126 ii. Jalam.
            127 iii. Korah.

            Esau also married Basemath (Number 114) the daughter of Ishmael who was born in the Desert of Paran, Canaan They were married in Canaan and she died in Seir, Edom. Esau and Basemath had the following son:
            128 i. Reuel.

            101. Jacob was born in 2110 in Beer Lahai Roi, Canaan. He died in 2257 at the age of 147 years in Goshen, Egypt. He was buried in 2257 in the Cave of Machpelah near Mamre. He was around 49 years old when his first son Reuben was born. He first married Leah (Number 122) the daughter of Laban in Paddan Aram, Aramea. She was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea and died in Canaan. She was buried in the Cave of Machpelah near Mamre. Jacob and Leah had the following six sons and one daughter:
            +129 i. Reuben.
            +130 ii. Simeon.
            +131 iii. Levi.
            +132 iv. Judah.
            +133 v. Issachar.
            +134 vi. Zebulum.
            135 vii. Dinah.

            Jacob also married Rachel (Number 123) the daughter of Laban in Paddan Aram, Aramea. She was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea and died near Bethlehem. Jacob and Rachel had the following children:
            +136 i. Joseph.
            +137 ii. Benjamin.

            Jacob also married Bilhah and they had the following sons:
            +138 i. Dan.
            +139 ii. Naphtali.

            Jacob also married Zilpah and they had the following sons:
            +140 i. Gad.
            +141 ii. Asher.

            23RD GENERATION
            129. Reuben was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea and died in Egypt. He had the following children, all born in Canaan and all died in Goshen, Egypt:
            152 i. Hanoch.
            153 ii. Pallu.
            154 iii. Hezron.
            155 iv. Carmi.

            130. Simeon was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea. He died in Goshen, Egypt. He had the following children, all born in Canaan and died in Goshen, Egypt:
            156 i. Jemuel.
            157 ii. Jamin.
            158 iii. Ohad.
            159 iv. Jakin.
            160 v. Zohar.
            161 vi. Shaul.

            131. Levi was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea and died in Goshen, Egypt at the age of 137 years. He had the following children who were born in Canaan and died in Egypt.
            162 i. Gershon.
            163 ii. Kohath. He died at the age of 133 years.
            164 iii. Merari.

            132. Judah was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea and died in Egypt. He had the following children:
            165 i. Er was born in Kezib, Canaan. He died in Kezib, Canaan.
            166 ii. Onan was born in Kezib, Canaan. He died in Kezib, Canaan.
            167 iii. Shelah was born in Kezib, Canaan. He died in Goshen, Egypt.

            Judah had twin sons by Tamar who was born in Canaan. There sons were:
            +168 i. Perez.
            169 ii. Zerah was born in Enaim, Canaan. He died in Goshen, Egypt.

            133. Issachar was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea and died in Egypt. He had the following children, all of whom were born in Canaan and died in Goshen, Egypt:
            170 i. Tola.
            171 ii. Puaht.
            172 iii. Jashub.
            173 iv. Shimron.

            134. Zebulum was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea and died in Egypt. He had the following children, all born in Canaan and died in Goshen, Egypt:
            174 i. Sered.
            175 ii. Elon.
            176 iii. Jahleel.

            136. Joseph was born in 2200 in Paddan Aram, Aramea. He lived to the age of 110 years and died in Egypt in 2310 and was embalmed there. His body were taken to Shechem after the entrance into the Promised Land and buried there. (Joshua 24.32) He was married to Asenath the daughter of Potiphera who was born in Egypt. She died in Egypt. Joseph and Asenath had the following sons who were born and died in Egypt:
            177 i. Manasseh.
            178 ii. Ephraim.

            137. Benjamin was born near Bethlehem. He died in Egypt. He had the following children, all of whom were born in Canaan and died in Goshen, Egypt:
            179 i. Bela.
            180 ii. Beker.
            181 iii. Asnbel.
            182 iv. Gera.
            183 v. Naaman.
            184 vi. Ehi.
            185 vii. Rosht.
            186 viii. Muppim.
            187 ix. Huppim.
            188 x. Ard.

            138. Dan was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea. He died in Egypt. He had the following children:
            189 i. Hushim was born in Canaan. He died in Goshen, Egypt.

            139. Naphtali was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea. He died in Egypt. He had the following children, all his sons were born in Canaan and died in Goshen, Egypt:
            190 i. Jahziel.
            191 ii. Guni.
            192 iii. Jezer.
            193 iv. Shillem.

            140. Gad was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea. He died in Egypt. He had the following children, who were born in Canaan and died in Goshen, Egypt:
            194 i. Zephon .
            195 ii. Haggi.
            196 iii. Shuni.
            197 iv. Ezbon.
            198 v. Eri.
            199 vi. Arodi.
            200 vii. Areli.

            141. Asher was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea. He died in Goshen, Egypt. He had the following children who were born in Canaan and died in Goshen, Egypt:
            201 i. Imnah.
            202 ii. Ishvah.
            203 iii. Ishvi.
            204 iv. Beriah.
            205 v. Serah (a daughter).

            24TH GENERATION.
            168. Perez was born in Enaim, Canaan. He died in Goshen, Egypt. He had the following children:
            +206 i. Hezron.
            207 ii. Hamul was born in Canaan. He died in Goshen, Egypt.

            25TH GENERATION
            206. Hezron was born in Canaan. He died in Goshen, Egypt. He had the following son:
            +210 i. Ram.

            26TH GENERATION.
            210. Ram was born in Egypt. He died in Egypt. He had the following son:
            +211 i. Nahshon.

            27TH GENERATION.
            211. Nahshon was born in Egypt. He died in the Wilderness of Paran. He was the prince of the tribe of Judah during the journey through the wilderness. He had the following son:
            +212 i. Salmon.

            28TH GENERATION.
            212. Salmon was born in in the Wilderness and died in Bethlehem. He was married to Rahab who was born in Jericho. She died in Bethlehem. She saved the three spies of Israel who entered Jericho and as a result she and her family were saved from the destruction of Jericho. Salmon and Rahab had the following son:
            +213 i. Boaz.

            29TH GENERATION
            213. Boaz was born in Bethlehem and died in Bethlehem. He was married to Ruth in Bethlehem. She was born in Moab and died in Bethlehem. She was a widow who moved from Moab to Bethelehm with Naomi her mother-in-law. Boaz and Ruth had the following son:
            +214 i. Obed.

            30TH GENERATION
            214. Obed was born in Bethlehem and died in Bethlehem. He had the following son:
            +215 i. Jesse.

            31ST GENERATION
            215. Jesse was born in Bethlehem and probably died there. He had the following children all born in Bethlehem:
            216 i. Eliab.
            217 ii. Abinadab.
            218 iii. Shimea.
            219 iv. Nethanel.
            220 v. Raddai.
            221 vi. Ozem.
            +222 vii. David.
            +223 viii. Zeruiah a daughter.
            +224 ix. Abigail a daughter.

            31ST GENERATION
            215. Jesse was born in Bethlehem and probably died there. He had the following children all born in Bethlehem:
            216 i. Eliab .
            217 ii. Abinadab.
            218 iii. Shimea .
            219 iv. Nethanel.
            220 v. Raddai .
            221 vi. Ozem.
            +222 vii. David.
            +223 viii. Zeruiah a daughter.
            +224 ix. Abigail a daughter.

            32ND GENERATION
            222. David was born in Bethlehem in 2945 and died in Jerusalem in 3016 at the age of 70 or 71. He was 30 years old when he began king of Judah and reigned for seven and one half years in Hebron. Then he became king of all Israel and reigned for 33 more years. He was a good king, an excellent organizer, a master musician and writer of many hymns. His one failure, the affair with Bathsheba, was a bad influence on his children who later caused him considerable trouble and heartache.

            David first married Michal the daughter of Saul, King of Israel. They had no children.

            David also married Ahinoam who was born in Jezreel. She died in Jerusalem. David and Ahinoam had the following son:
            225 i. Amnon, David’s first born son, was born in Hebron. He died in Baal Hazor. He was murdered on Absalom’s orders.

            David also married Abigail the widow of Nabal. She was born in Carmel and died in Jerusalem. David and Abigail had the following son:
            226 i. Daniel was born in Hebron. At first his name was Kileab but later it was changed to Daniel. No record is given of his later life.

            David also married Maacah daughter of Talmai the King of Geshur. She was born in Geshur and died in Jerusalem. David and Maacah had the following children:
            +227 i. Absalom.
            228 ii. Tamar.

            David also married Haggith and had the following son:
            229 i. Adonijah was born in Hebron. He died in Jerusalem. He was executed by the order of Solomon.

            David also married Abital and had the following son.
            230 i. Shephatiah was born in Hebron.

            David also married Eglah and had the following son:
            231 i. Ithream was born in Hebron.

            David also married Bathsheba the widow of Uriah the Hittite. She was the daughter of Eliam and the grand daughter of Ahithophel one of David’s counselers who took part in the rebellion of Absalom. Bathsheba came from Gilon and died in Jerusalem. David and Bathsheba had the following sons all born in Jerusalem:
            232 i. Shammua.
            233 ii. Shobab.
            +234 iii. Nathan.
            +235 iv. Solomon.

            223. Zeruiah, a sister of David, was born in Bethlehem. She had the following sons:
            236 i. Abishai one of David’s army officers.
            237 ii. Joab, commander of David’s army. He murdered Abner, killed Absalom against David’s wishes, and he killed his cousin Amasa. He was executed by orders from Solomon and died in Jerusalem.
            238 iii. Asahel probably born in Bethlehem. He died in battle, killed by Abner.

            224. Abigail, a sister of David, was born in Bethlehem. She was married to Jether the Ishmaelite. They had the following son:
            239 i. Amasa, David’s nephew. He joined in Absalom’s rebellion but returned to David who made him the commander of his army. He was killed by his cousin Joab.

            33RD GENERATION
            227. Absalom was born in Hebron. He died in Ephraim. His mother was the daughter of the king of Gesher. He had his servants kill his halfbrother Amnon. Later he rebelled against his father and tried to take the kingdom by force but he died in a battle with the forces of King David. Absalom had three sons who did not survive him and a daughter named Tamer. He also had a sister named Tamer. Another daughter is mentioned, named Maacah. Maacah and Tamor may be the same person who at first was called Tamer, after his sister, and later Maacah, after his mother.
            240 i. Maacah. She married her cousin Rehoboam.

            234. Nathan the son of David and Bathsheba was born in Jerusalem. The decedents of Nathan are listed in the genealogy used by Luke in his life of Jesus. He had the following son:
            +241 i. Mattatha.

            235. Solomon was born in 2992 and died in Jerusalem in 3056 at the age of 64. He was buried in the City of David. He reigned as King of Israel in Jerusalem for 40 years. He began as a wise king who built the temple, one of the marvels of the world. He also built many other buildings, gardens, enlarged and fortified a number of cities, and he had a large army. He had many wives who turned him away from God. He married Naamah who was born in Ammon. She died in Jerusalem. Solomon and Naamah had the following son:
            +242 i. Rehoboam.

            34TH GENERATION
            241. Mattatha. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +244 i. Menna.

            242. Rehoboam was born in Jerusalem in 3014 and died there in 3072 at the age of 58. Inflation and taxes were a burden on the nation when he began to reign. Because he followed bad advice the kingdom split into two parts and he reigned only over Judah the southern part of Israel. He was 41 years old when he became king and reigned for 17 years in Jerusalem. During his reign, Shishak, the king of Egypt, attacked Jerusalem and took much booty. He married his cousin Maacah (Number 240) daughter of his uncle Absalom. (He had eighteen wives, sixty concubines, twenty eight sons, and sixty daughters. His favorite wife was Maacah.)
            +243 i. Abijah.

            35TH GENERATION
            243. Abijah was born in Jerusalem. He reigned for only 3 years in Jerusalem and died there in 3074. During his reign he was in a battle with Israel, the northern kingdom, and was outnumbered. He would nave lost but the army called for help from God and they were victorious because they relied on the Lord, the God of their fathers. He had a number of wives, sons, and daughters but Asa followed him as king.
            +245 i. Asa.

            244. Menna. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +246 i. Melea.

            36TH GENERATION
            245. Asa was born in Jerusalem and died there. He raigned for 41 years in Jerusalem. He was a righteous ruler removing the foreign alters and idols. During his time a very large army from Cush attacked Judah so Asa called upon God for help and was victorious. The men of Judah carried off a large amount of plunder. He married Azubah and had the following son.
            +247 i. Jehoshaphat.

            246. Melea Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +248 i. Eliakim.

            37TH GENERATION
            247. Jehoshaphat was born in Jerusalem and died there. He was 35 years old when he became king and reigned for 25 years in Jerusalem. He was a good king sending priests throughout the land to teach the people the Law of God. He made one serious mistake in making an alliance with the kings of Israel who were wicked rulers. He had seven sons of whom Jehoram was the firstborn who became king at his death.
            +249 i. Jehoram.

            248. Eliakim. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +250 i. Jonam.

            38TH GENERATION
            249. Jehoram was born and died in Jerusalem. He was 32 years old when he became king and reigned for 8 years. He followed the example of the kings of Israel so was a wicked ruler. The first thing he did was to killed all his brothers then he married Athaliah, a daughter of Ahab a very wicked king of Israel. He did not have the protection of God so was attacked by many enemies who killed all of his sons except Ahaziah his youngest son. Jehoram died to no one’s regret, and he was buried in the City of David, but not in the tombs of the kings.
            +251 i. Ahaziah.

            250. Jonam. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +252 i. Joshua.

            39TH GENERATION
            251. Ahaziah was born in Jerusalem and was buried there. He was 22 years old when he became king and reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother, Athaliah, encouraged him to do wrong. He was wounded by Jehu at Jezreel. He fled to Megiddo where he died and his body was taken to Jerusalem and buried in the City of David. He married Zibiah who was born in Beersheba, Canaan. She died in Jerusalem. Ahaziah and Zibiah had the following son:
            +253 i. Joash.

            252. Joshua. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +254 i. Er.

            * When Ahaziah died his mother, Athaliah, killed all the royal princes except for Joash the youngest and put herself up as ruler. Joash was saved by an aunt and hidden in the temple buildings until he was seven years old. At that time he was proclaimed king and Athaliah was killed. She ruled for seven years.

            40TH GENERATION
            253. Joash was born in Jerusalem. He died in Beth Millo and was buried in Jerusalem. Joash was 7 years old when he began the king of Judia and he reigned in Jerusalem for 40 years. He started out as a good king but when the high priest who had raised him died he followed worthless men and turned bad. He was assassinated at Beth Millo by his officers. He married Jehoaddin who was born in Jerusalem and died there. Joash and Jehoaddin had the following son:
            +255 i. Amaziah.

            254. Er. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +256 i. Elmadam.

            41ST GENERATION
            255. Amaziah was born in Jerusalem. He was 25 years old when he became king and reigned for 29 years. They conspired against him in Jersalum, he fled to Lachish where he was killed and his body was returned to Jerusalem where he was buried. He married Jecoliah who was born in Jerusalem and died there. Amaziah and Jecoliah had the following son:
            +257 i. Azariah, also called Uzziah.

            256. Elmadam. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +258 i. Cosam.

            42ND GENERATION
            257. Azariah (Uzziah) was born in Jerusalem and died there. He became king of Judah at age 16 and reigned for 52 years. He married Jerusha (daughter of Zadok ) who died in Jerusalem. He was a good king but became proud and tried to offer incense in the temple where only the priests were allowed to go. Because of his actions leprosy broke out on his forehead and he was forced to live the rest of his life in a separate building. Azariah (Uzziah) and Jerusha had the following son:
            +259 i. Jotham.

            258. Cosam. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +260 i. Addi.

            43RD GENERATION
            259. Jotham was born in Jerusalem and died there. He began to reign at age 25 and reigned in Jerusalem for 16 years. He did what was right in God’s sight and he grew powerful because he was faithful before the Lord his God. He had the following son:
            +261 i. Ahaz.

            260. Addi. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +262 i. Melki.

            44TH GENERATION
            261. Ahaz was born in Jerusalem and died there. Ahaz was 20 years old when he became king and reigned in Jerusalem for 16 years. He was a wicked king who worshipped idols and sacrificed his sons in fire to false gods. Because he was not faithful to God he was defeated in all his battles with heavy loses. He married Abijah and had the following son:
            +263 i. Hezekiah.

            262. Melki. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +264 i. Neri.

            45TH GENERATION
            263. Hezekiah was born in Jerusalem and died there. He was 25 years old when he became king and reigned in Jerusalem for 29 years. He was one of the better kings with a great faith in God. He lived during the time of Isaiah who told him he was about to die. God heard his prayers and healed him. He married Hephzibah and had the following son.
            +265 i. Manasseh.

            264. Neri. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +266 i. Sealtiel.

            46TH GENERATION
            265. Manasseh was born in Jerusalem and died there. He was 12 years old when he became king and reigned 55 years in Jerusalem. He was the most evil of the kings of Judah. He married Meshullemeth from Jotbah, the daughter of Haruz. She died in Jerusalem. Manasseh and Meshullemeth had the following son:
            +267 i. Amon.

            266. Sealtiel. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +268 i. Zerubbabel.

            47TH GENERATION
            267. Amon was born in Jerusalem and died there. He was 22 years old when he became king and reigned for 2 years in Jerusalem. His officers conspired against him and assassinated him in his palace. He was buried in the garden of Uzza. He married Jedidah from Bozkath the daughter of Adaiah. She died in Jerusalem. Amon and Jedidah had the following son:
            +269 i. Josiah.

            268. Zerubbabel. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +270 i. Rhesa.

            48TH GENERATION
            269. Josiah was born in Jerusalem. He was 8 years old when he became king and reigned 31 years in Jerusalem. He died in a battle against Pharaoh Neco of Egypt at Megiddo and was buried in Jerusalem. He married Zebidah (daughter of Pedaiah ) who was born in Rumah. They had the following son:
            +271 i. Jehoiakim or Eliakim.

            He also married Hamutal (daughter of Jeremiah ) who was born in Libnah. Josiah and Hamutal had the following son:
            272 i. Jehoahaz was born in Jerusalem. He died in Egypt.

            270. Rhesa. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +273 i. Joanan.

            49TH GENERATION
            271. Jehoiakim or Eliakim was born in Jerusalem. He died in Babylon. Pharaoh Neco put Eliakim on the throne of Judah and changed his name to Jehoiakim. He was 25 when he began to reign. He was on the throne for 11 years when Nebuchadnezzar took him captive to Babylon. He married Nehushta (daughter of Elnathan ) who was born in Jerusalem and died in Babylon. Jehoiakim and Nehushta had the following son:
            +274 i. Jehoichin.

            273. Joanan. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +275 i. Joda.

            50TH GENERATION
            274. Jehoichin was born in Jerusalem and died in Babylon. He was 18 when he became king of Judah and reigned for three months and 10 days. Nebuchadnezzar then forced him to go to Babylon. He had the following son.
            +276 i. Shealtiel.

            275. Joda. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +277 i. Joseph.

            51ST GENERATION
            276. Shealtiel had the following son:
            +278 i. Zerubbabel.

            277. Joseph. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +279 i. Semein.

            52ND GENERATION
            278. Zerubbabel had the following son:
            +280 i. Abiud.

            279. Semein. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +281 i. Mattathias.

            53RD GENERATION
            280. Abiud had the following son:
            +282 i. Eliakim.

            281. Mattathias. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +283 i. Maath.

            54TH GENERATION
            282. Eliakim had the following son:
            +284 i. Azor.

            283. Maath. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +285 i. Naggai.

            55TH GENERATION
            284. Azor had the following son:
            +286 i. Zadok.

            285. Naggai. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +287 i. Esli.

            56TH GENERATION
            286. Zadok had the following son:
            +288 i. Akim.

            287. Esli. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +289 i. Nahum.

            57TH GENERATION
            288. Akim had the following son:
            +290 i. Eliud.

            289. Nahum. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +291 i. Amos.

            58TH GENERATION
            290. Eliud had the following son:
            +292 i. Eleazer.

            291. Amos. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +293 i. Mattathias.

            59TH GENERATION
            292. Eleazer had the following son:
            +294 i. Matthan.

            293. Mattathias. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +295 i. Joseph.

            60TH GENERATION
            294. Matthan had the following son:
            +296 i. Jacob.

            295. Joseph. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +297 i. Jannai.

            61ST GENERATION
            296. Jacob had the following son:
            +298 i. Joseph.

            297. Jannai. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +299 i. Melki.

            62ND GENERATION
            298. Joseph. Of the line of Solomon was the legal father of Jesus. After the birth of Jesus, Joseph and Mary had several daughters and the following sons.
            301 i. James
            302 ii. Joseph
            303 iii. Simon
            304 iv. Judas

            299. Melki. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +301 i. Levi.

            63RD GENERATION
            301. Levi. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +302 i. Matthat.

            64TH GENERATION
            302. Matthat. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
            +303 i. Heli or Eli.

            65TH GENERATION
            303. Heli or Eli. Of Nathan’s line had the following daughter:
            +304 i. Mary.

            66TH GENERATION
            304. Mary, a virgin, was empowered by the Holy Spirit and gave birth to Jesus, the Son of God.

            300 i. Jesus. He was born on Sunday the 28th of the month Iyyar in the year 3995 which is 14 May, 6 BC. He was born in Bethlehem and executed on 5 April in 30 AD in Jerusalem and was buried the same day in Jerusalem. He rose from the dead on 7 April in 30 AD in Jerusalem.

            Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. (Hebrews 13:8 WEB)

          • krishnarao says

            Mr. Spanky, a.k.a. mac, is using what is called a straw man argument. You first make a false claim that all mankind are sinner and than you offer up a solution that his religion only has. lol……… how convenient. THat is the oldest trick in the book. what a sick person Mr. spanky is. Sounds like mr. spanky needs to realize that people are educated now and don’t fall it.

          • Mac says

            Mankind means Adam’s kind. Adam means man. Adam only sinned once by disobeying God’s only one command to him. The glory of God was taken away from him and Eve his wife. They were left in utter fleshly life. They couldnt see the spiritual world, the angels and God stopped coming to them thereafter. This is the fall of man from glory. This is the original sin and the impulse of the original sin is in our flesh. When Adam sinned, human nature was thenceforth transformed. Adam and Eve, via sexual reproduction, recreated human nature. Their descendants now live in sin, in the form of concupiscence, a term Augustine used in a metaphysical, not a psychological sense.

            John 3:5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

            Be born of water – By “water,” here, is evidently signified “baptism.” Thus the word is used in Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5. Baptism was practiced by the Jews in receiving a Gentile as a proselyte. It was practiced by John among the Jews; and Jesus here says that it is an ordinance of his religion, and the sign and seal of the renewing influences of his Spirit. So he said Mark 16:16, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.”

            And though it cannot be said that none who are not baptized can be saved, yet Jesus meant, undoubtedly, to be understood as affirming that this was to be the regular and uniform way of entering into his church.

          • Mac says

            The word aryan belongs to the descendents of Shem (means the royal one). Madai, 4th son of Japheth (Europeans) asked his uncle Shem to allow him to live in his allotted land and he allowed him as per the records of Book of Jubilees. So Madai’s descendents lived with Elam, eldest son of Shem since then. It is Elam who is aryan, Elamites are aryans not Medes people. Although later on they mixed up. German nazis and Medes people are not the real aryan as per biblical account. They tried to relate themselves to the holy and royal blood line of Shem and in fact they are not. In my earlier comment, I have given the royal bloodline. Darius I calls himself as an aryan and Ram-sin the Elamite as his ancestor because of this.

            If I have given the details of the original allotment of the earth by Noah to his three sons on this blog, you will see the allotment to Elam by his father Shem and you will see that it includes India.

            Acts 17:26 From one man (Noah) he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

            Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel.

            Job 12:23 He makes nations great, and destroys them; he enlarges nations, and disperses them.

          • SDC says

            How were you privy to such secrets? Are you having revelations of late? Anyways, you are free to believe in “Christian science” if that pleases you but that will not be acceptable to all and sundry. The concept of Anno Mundi only exists in Abrahamic literature and it should stay that way for eternity. Try to stick to the topics being discussed and avoid copy-pasting irrelevant material. I am hoping against hope that you will heed my advice.

          • Mac says

            I am living in it, bro. However, Anno Mundi is just a way of calculating time from creation, all the years from creation. Where as Jubilee year is 49 our years and a week of Jubilee is 7 years and it is recounted in Anno Mundi, its just a method of calculating. Why thou despise it, because it is greek?

          • SDC says

            Good on you, mate. BTW, there are other scientific as well as religious units of time if I am not ill-informed. Why I reject the concept of Anno Mundi is because it stands on the theory of creationism which itself is not worthy of rational consideration. In any case, the question of hating it does not even arise.

  28. jai shankar says

    @naaz,a child born in any country he cry same voice.why all humans laughing same? Why all emotions are same?? All tears are same? Angeryness,peacefullness is not countrywide,why? Relegions are different but nature is one why? Science is one why?

    • Mac says

      Science is the study of the nature God created. We study physical creation in science. Whereas morality is a spiritual thing, so is the Word of God. As it is written: God is love.

      • SDC says

        How did you come up with a new definition of “science”? FYI, science is very well defined. Creationism has not been accepted as a law in case you do not know it as yet, daydreamer. Morality and spirituality are basically subjective in nature.

        • Mac says

          Morality is a spiritual thing and nature is a physical thing. Science or nature do not decide on its own the morality, it is being subjected by the code of law which God commanded them to.

          Job lived before Exodus and he was tested by God on account of Satan. 3 of his friend came to comfort him in his distress and one of them was an Indian/Elamite named Bildad and his relative. I am quoting here what God said to Job.

          Job 38 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:

          2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
          with words without knowledge?
          3 Brace yourself like a man;
          I will question you,
          and you shall answer me.

          4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
          Tell me, if you understand.
          5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
          Who stretched a measuring line across it?
          6 On what were its footings set,
          or who laid its cornerstone—
          7 while the morning stars sang together
          and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

          8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
          when it burst forth from the womb,
          9 when I made the clouds its garment
          and wrapped it in thick darkness,
          10 when I fixed limits for it
          and set its doors and bars in place,
          11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
          here is where your proud waves halt’?

          12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
          or shown the dawn its place,
          13 that it might take the earth by the edges
          and shake the wicked out of it?
          14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
          its features stand out like those of a garment.
          15 The wicked are denied their light,
          and their upraised arm is broken.

          16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
          or walked in the recesses of the deep?
          17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
          Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
          18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
          Tell me, if you know all this.

          19 “What is the way to the abode of light?
          And where does darkness reside?
          20 Can you take them to their places?
          Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
          21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
          You have lived so many years!

          22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
          or seen the storehouses of the hail,
          23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
          for days of war and battle?
          24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
          or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
          25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
          and a path for the thunderstorm,
          26 to water a land where no one lives,
          an uninhabited desert,
          27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
          and make it sprout with grass?
          28 Does the rain have a father?
          Who fathers the drops of dew?
          29 From whose womb comes the ice?
          Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
          30 when the waters become hard as stone,
          when the surface of the deep is frozen?

          31 “Can you bind the chains[b] of the Pleiades?
          Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
          32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons[c]
          or lead out the Bear[d] with its cubs?
          33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
          Can you set up God’s[e] dominion over the earth?

          34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds
          and cover yourself with a flood of water?
          35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
          Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
          36 Who gives the ibis wisdom[f]
          or gives the rooster understanding?[g]
          37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
          Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
          38 when the dust becomes hard
          and the clods of earth stick together?

          39 “Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
          and satisfy the hunger of the lions
          40 when they crouch in their dens
          or lie in wait in a thicket?
          41 Who provides food for the raven
          when its young cry out to God
          and wander about for lack of food?

          Job 39 “Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
          Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?
          2 Do you count the months till they bear?
          Do you know the time they give birth?
          3 They crouch down and bring forth their young;
          their labor pains are ended.
          4 Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds;
          they leave and do not return.

          5 “Who let the wild donkey go free?
          Who untied its ropes?
          6 I gave it the wasteland as its home,
          the salt flats as its habitat.
          7 It laughs at the commotion in the town;
          it does not hear a driver’s shout.
          8 It ranges the hills for its pasture
          and searches for any green thing.

          9 “Will the wild ox consent to serve you?
          Will it stay by your manger at night?
          10 Can you hold it to the furrow with a harness?
          Will it till the valleys behind you?
          11 Will you rely on it for its great strength?
          Will you leave your heavy work to it?
          12 Can you trust it to haul in your grain
          and bring it to your threshing floor?

          13 “The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,
          though they cannot compare
          with the wings and feathers of the stork.
          14 She lays her eggs on the ground
          and lets them warm in the sand,
          15 unmindful that a foot may crush them,
          that some wild animal may trample them.
          16 She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;
          she cares not that her labor was in vain,
          17 for God did not endow her with wisdom
          or give her a share of good sense.
          18 Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,
          she laughs at horse and rider.

          19 “Do you give the horse its strength
          or clothe its neck with a flowing mane?
          20 Do you make it leap like a locust,
          striking terror with its proud snorting?
          21 It paws fiercely, rejoicing in its strength,
          and charges into the fray.
          22 It laughs at fear, afraid of nothing;
          it does not shy away from the sword.
          23 The quiver rattles against its side,
          along with the flashing spear and lance.
          24 In frenzied excitement it eats up the ground;
          it cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.
          25 At the blast of the trumpet it snorts, ‘Aha!’
          It catches the scent of battle from afar,
          the shout of commanders and the battle cry.

          26 “Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom
          and spread its wings toward the south?
          27 Does the eagle soar at your command
          and build its nest on high?
          28 It dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
          a rocky crag is its stronghold.
          29 From there it looks for food;
          its eyes detect it from afar.
          30 Its young ones feast on blood,
          and where the slain are, there it is.”

          Job 40 The Lord said to Job:

          2 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
          Let him who accuses God answer him!”

          3 Then Job answered the Lord:

          4 “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
          I put my hand over my mouth.
          5 I spoke once, but I have no answer—
          twice, but I will say no more.”

          6 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm:

          7 “Brace yourself like a man;
          I will question you,
          and you shall answer me.

          8 “Would you discredit my justice?
          Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
          9 Do you have an arm like God’s,
          and can your voice thunder like his?
          10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
          and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
          11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
          look at all who are proud and bring them low,
          12 look at all who are proud and humble them,
          crush the wicked where they stand.
          13 Bury them all in the dust together;
          shroud their faces in the grave.
          14 Then I myself will admit to you
          that your own right hand can save you.

          15 “Look at Behemoth,
          which I made along with you
          and which feeds on grass like an ox.
          16 What strength it has in its loins,
          what power in the muscles of its belly!
          17 Its tail sways like a cedar;
          the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.
          18 Its bones are tubes of bronze,
          its limbs like rods of iron.
          19 It ranks first among the works of God,
          yet its Maker can approach it with his sword.
          20 The hills bring it their produce,
          and all the wild animals play nearby.
          21 Under the lotus plants it lies,
          hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
          22 The lotuses conceal it in their shadow;
          the poplars by the stream surround it.
          23 A raging river does not alarm it;
          it is secure, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth.
          24 Can anyone capture it by the eyes,
          or trap it and pierce its nose?

          Job 41 [a]“Can you pull in Leviathan with a fishhook
          or tie down its tongue with a rope?
          2 Can you put a cord through its nose
          or pierce its jaw with a hook?
          3 Will it keep begging you for mercy?
          Will it speak to you with gentle words?
          4 Will it make an agreement with you
          for you to take it as your slave for life?
          5 Can you make a pet of it like a bird
          or put it on a leash for the young women in your house?
          6 Will traders barter for it?
          Will they divide it up among the merchants?
          7 Can you fill its hide with harpoons
          or its head with fishing spears?
          8 If you lay a hand on it,
          you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
          9 Any hope of subduing it is false;
          the mere sight of it is overpowering.
          10 No one is fierce enough to rouse it.
          Who then is able to stand against me?
          11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
          Everything under heaven belongs to me.

          12 “I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs,
          its strength and its graceful form.
          13 Who can strip off its outer coat?
          Who can penetrate its double coat of armor[b]?
          14 Who dares open the doors of its mouth,
          ringed about with fearsome teeth?
          15 Its back has[c] rows of shields
          tightly sealed together;
          16 each is so close to the next
          that no air can pass between.
          17 They are joined fast to one another;
          they cling together and cannot be parted.
          18 Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
          its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
          19 Flames stream from its mouth;
          sparks of fire shoot out.
          20 Smoke pours from its nostrils
          as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
          21 Its breath sets coals ablaze,
          and flames dart from its mouth.
          22 Strength resides in its neck;
          dismay goes before it.
          23 The folds of its flesh are tightly joined;
          they are firm and immovable.
          24 Its chest is hard as rock,
          hard as a lower millstone.
          25 When it rises up, the mighty are terrified;
          they retreat before its thrashing.
          26 The sword that reaches it has no effect,
          nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
          27 Iron it treats like straw
          and bronze like rotten wood.
          28 Arrows do not make it flee;
          slingstones are like chaff to it.
          29 A club seems to it but a piece of straw;
          it laughs at the rattling of the lance.
          30 Its undersides are jagged potsherds,
          leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
          31 It makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
          and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
          32 It leaves a glistening wake behind it;
          one would think the deep had white hair.
          33 Nothing on earth is its equal—
          a creature without fear.
          34 It looks down on all that are haughty;
          it is king over all that are proud.”

          • Jay says

            Ancient Middle Eastern Jews had no science to explain the world so they had their image of God be the explanation for it. Behemoth and Leviathan – mythological figures.

          • krishnarao says

            The most important thing is the techniques. That should be main big point of a faith. Instead these crazy jesus fanatics put history first and historical events first. Only subverted people believe in such non-sense. And take Buddha for example. Although there are some Buddhists that worship buddha, Buddha actually told his followers to not worship him. People asked if he was God or a prophet. And he said no to both. He said I am just a man who was awakened, Buddha. And he also said there were many Buddhas before me and many will come after me. Anyone can accomplish what I have done. You just need to use the Techniques I show you. And he teaches his students the different techniques like vipassana meditation. The point is a true teacher will help you experience what he or she experienced. Only a fake will say worship me or follow me or say I am the last one, no one can do what i have done. Total nonsense. There will always be people who can connect with God. And anyone who said otherwise is full of S**T. Time to stop the utter subversion. Time to learn the techniques to connect with God. Time to become adults. GOD IS BEYOND HISTORY AND REQUIRED HISTORICAL EVENTS. God is exists in all of us and we just need to reach into our inner-self and and seek God and we can be enlightened. People like Mac are the true subverter and in a way, he is the devil he speaks of.

          • Mac says

            You and Jay have a bad habit of bluntly defying the truth without any reasoning or stating any valid arguement or facts. It comes from the blindfaith. When you say Faith instead of Shraddha, let me tell you; the word Faith exclusively belong to Jesus Christ. Faith is the substance of our belief in the Word of God who is unseen. On the contrary, Shraddha is believing in what you see.

            Revelations: The One who rides the white horse, His Name is Faith(ful).

            God is beyond history, time and space. Did Jesus had a teacher or did he went to school? No. Then how come the teachers of the law, Rabbis call Jesus a Rabbi. At 10 years Jesus got lost and was found teaching to the teachers of law and Members of Sanhedrin, when He was found by His parents. He was telling them the exact numbers of stars God created.
            He is the physical Creator and you say His teachings are lies!!! Come on get a life here. Sermon on the mountain is the greatest teachings of morality ever uttered by a human being. Which of your gods performed miracles? Or walked on water like Jesus, healed the sick, cast out demons, commanded the waves of the storm to calm down or brought the dead to life with a command or forgiven sins of mankind. The sin was committed in flesh, so also it was paid in full in flesh. The sins committed in spirit world are unforgivable because they know God. The Word became flesh and lived amongst us for a while: it is written.

            John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

            This is the reason God calls Abraham His friend. Because God tested Abraham with his only son Isaac’s sacrifice. Isaac was born when Abraham was 99 years old.

            It is God who is good and God is love.

            John 14:1 If you love Me, you will obey what I command.

            John 14:21 “Whoever has My commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves Me. He who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I too will love him and show Myself to him.”

            If you are looking for freedom from sin as the scriptures say that the impulse of sin is in our flesh.

            John 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

            John 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

            Romans 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

            You are trying to find God and get enlightened. I am going to tell you how it is in the spirit world in heavens. God sits above the upper waters in unapproachable lights (distance) from us. He has established a whole system of governance, a hierchy in the spirit world.

            Pslam 82:1 God presides in the great assembly; He gives judgment among the “gods”:

            There are 24 Elders, 12 on both sides of the Throne of the Most High. Jesus Christ, Son of God sits on the right hand of the God as a Mediator of mankind. In the second row Seraphims sit and the third row Cherubims sit. Both are 6 winged angels, Cherubs are angels of fire. These are all gods created by God Almighty. And here below is the heirchy of angels, the spiritual beings.

            Seraphim
            These are the highest order or choir of angels. They are the angels who are attendants or guardians before God’s throne. They praise God, calling, “Holy Holy Holy is the Lord of Hosts”. the only Bible reference is Isaiah 6:1-7. One of them touched Isaiah’s lips with a live coal from the altar, cleansing him from sin. Seraphim have six wings, two cover their faces, two cover their feet, and two are for flying.

            Cherubim
            Cherubim rank after the seraphim and are the second highest in the nine hierarchies or choirs of angels. The Old Testament does not reveal any evidence that the Jews considered them as intercessors or helpers of God. They were closely linked in God’s glory. They are manlike in appearance and double-winged and were guardians of God’s glory. They symbolized then, God’s power and mobility. In the New Testament, they are alluded to as celestial attendants in the Apocalypse (Rv 4-6). Catholic tradition describes them as angels who have an intimate knowledge of God and continually praise Him. Satan is also a Cherubim, who rebelled.

            Thrones
            Thrones are the Angels of pure Humility, Peace and Submisssion. They reside in the area of the cosmos where material form begins to take shape. The lower Choir of Angels need the Thrones to access God.

            Dominions
            Dominions are Angels of Leadership. They regulate the duties of the angels, making known the commands of God.

            Virtues
            Virtues are known as the Spirits of Motion and control the elements. They are sometimes referred to as “the shining ones.” They govern all nature. They have control over seasons, stars, moon; even the sun is subject to their command. They are also in charge of miracles and provide courage, grace, and valor.

            Powers
            Powers are Warrior Angels against evil defending the cosmos and humans. They are known as potentates. They fight against evil spirits who attempt to wreak chaos through human beings. The chief is said to be either Samael or Camael, both angels of darkness.

            Archangels
            Archangels are generally taken to mean “chief or leading angel” ( Jude 9; 1 Thes 4:16), they are the most frequently mentioned throughout the Bible. They may be of this or other hierarchies as Archangel Michael (Yeshua), who is a princely Seraph. The Archangels have a unique role as God’s messenger to the people at critical times in history and salvation (Tb 12:6, 15; Jn 5:4; Rv 12:7-9). The Eastern Rite and many others place him over all the angels, as Prince of the Seraphim. He is described as the “Chief of Princes” and as the leader of the forces of heaven in their triumph over Satan and his followers. The angel Gabriel first appeared in the Old Testament in the prophesies of Daniel, he announced the prophecy of 70 weeks (Dn 9:21-27). He appeared to Zechariah to announce the birth of St. John the Baptist (Lk 1:11). It was also Gabriel which proclaimed the Annunciation of Mary to be the mother of our Lord and Saviour. (Lk 1:26) The angel Raphael first appeared in the book of Tobit (Tobias)Tb 3:25, 5:5-28, 6-12). He announces “I am the Angel Raphael, one of the seven who stand before the throne of God.”

            Principalities
            In the New Testament Principalities refers to one type of spiritual (metaphysical) being which are now quite hostile to God and human beings. (Rom 8:38; 1 Cor 15:24; Eph 1:21; 3:10; 6:12; Col 1:16; 2:10, 15) Along with the principalities are the powers (Rom 8:38; 1 Cor 15:24; Eph 1:21; 1 Pt 3:22; 2 Thes 1:7); and cosmological powers (1 Cor 15:24; Eph 1:21; 3:10; Col 2:15);Dominions (Eph 1:21; Col 1:16) and thrones (Col1:16). The clarity of the New Testament witness helps see that these beings were created through Christ and for Him (Col 1:16). Given their hostility to God and humans due to sin, Christ’s ultimate rule over them (ibid) expresses the reign of the Lord over all in the cosmos. This is the Lordship of Christ, which reveals God’s tremendous salvation in conquering sin and death at the cross, and now takes place in the Church. (Eph 3:10)

            Angels
            These angels are closest to the material world and human begins. They deliver the prayers to God and God’s answers and other messages to humans. Angels have the capacity to access any and all other Angels at any time. They are the most caring and socius to assist those who ask for help.

            Do Not worship angels. They are ministering spirits. Worship God who sits in the Most High.

          • Mac says

            Let us see, what is the truth? On this blog, I will prove you that you are a child of Satan, the Father of LIES.

            Considering that the Jewish people constitute a mere one half of one percent of the world’s population, Jewish contribution to religion, science, literature, music, medicine, finance, philosophy, entertainment etc., is staggering.

            In the field of medicine alone, Jewish contributions are staggering and continue to be so. It was a Jew who created the first polio vaccine, who discovered insulin, who discovered that aspirin dealt with pain, who discovered chloral hydrate for convulsions, who discovered streptomycin, who discovered the origin and spread of infectious diseases, who invented the test for diagnosis of syphilis, who identified the first cancer virus, who discovered the cure for pellagra and added to the knowledge about yellow fever, typhoid, typhus, measles, diphtheria and influenza. Today, Israel, a nation only sixty years old, has emerged at the forefront of stem-cell research, which will, in the near future, give humanity unprecedented medical treatment for degenerative diseases.

            There is a passage in the Talmud that says: “We find in the case of Cain, who killed his brother, that it is written: The bloods of thy brother cry unto me: not the blood of thy brother, but the bloods of thy brother is said, that is, his blood and the blood of his potential descendants.” (Sanhedrin 37a, 37-38.)

            Jewish Contributions to Society

            Albert Einstein Physicist
            Jonas Salk Created first Polio Vaccine.
            Albert Sabin Developed the oral vaccine for Polio.
            Galileo Discovered the speed of light
            Selman Waksman Discovered Streptomycin. Coined the word ‘antibiotic’.
            Gabriel Lipmann Discovered color photography.
            Baruch Blumberg Discovered origin and spread of infectious diseases.
            G. Edelman Discovered chemical structure of antibodies.
            Briton Epstein Identified first cancer virus.
            Maria Meyer Structure of atomic nuclei.
            Julius Mayer Discovered law of thermodynamics.
            Sigmund Freud Father of Psychotherapy.
            Christopher Columbus (Marano) Discovered the Americas.
            Benjamin Disraeli Prime Minister of Great Britain 1804-1881
            Isaac Singer Invented the sewing machine.
            Levi Strauss Largest manufacturer of Denim Jeans.
            Joseph Pulitzer Established ‘Pulitzer Prize’ for achievements in journalism, literature, music & art.

            At least 185 Jews and people of half- or three-quarters-Jewish ancestry have been awarded the Nobel Prize,1 accounting for 22% of all individual recipients worldwide between 1901 and 2011, and constituting 36% of all US recipients2 during the same period.3 In the research fields of Chemistry, Economics, Physics, and Physiology/Medicine, the corresponding world and US percentages are 27% and 39%, respectively. Among women laureates in the four research fields, the Jewish percentages (world and US) are 38% and 50%, respectively. Of organizations awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, 25% were founded principally by Jews or by people of half-Jewish descent. (Jews currently make up approximately 0.2% of the world’s population and 2% of the US population.)
            Chemistry (32 prize winners, 20% of world total, 29% of US total)
            Economics (28 prize winners, 41% of world total, 53% of US total)
            Literature (13 prize winners, 12% of world total, 27% of US total)
            Peace (9 prize winners, 9% of world total, 10% of US total)4
            Physics (49 prize winners, 26% of world total, 37% of US total)
            Physiology or Medicine (54 prize winners, 27% of world total, 40% of US total)
            See also data on “other Nobels”:
            Jewish Recipients of the Kyoto Prize (24% of recipients)
            Jewish Recipients of the Wolf Foundation Prize (33% of recipients)
            Jewish Recipients of the US National Medal of Science (38% of recipients)

            Listed below are recipients of the Nobel Prize in chemistry who were, or are, Jewish (or of half-Jewish descent, as noted). The percentages given above are those corresponding to only those names that appear explicitly on the list below.
            Adolph von Baeyer #,1 (1905)
            Henri Moissan #,2 (1906)
            Otto Wallach # (1910)
            Richard Willstätter # (1915)
            Fritz Haber # (1918)
            George de Hevesy # (1943)
            Melvin Calvin # (1961)
            Max Perutz # (1962)
            Christian Anfinsen 3 (1972)
            William Stein # (1972)
            Ilya Prigogine 4 (1977)
            Herbert Brown # (1979)
            Paul Berg # (1980)
            Walter Gilbert # (1980)
            Roald Hoffmann # (1981)
            Sir Aaron Klug # (1982)
            Herbert Hauptman 5 (1985)
            Jerome Karle 6 (1985)
            John Polanyi 7 (1986)
            Sidney Altman # (1989)
            Rudolph Marcus # (1992)
            George Olah 8 (1994)
            Sir Harold Kroto 9 (1996)
            Walter Kohn 10 (1998)
            Alan Heeger 11 (2000)
            Aaron Ciechanover 12 (2004)
            Avram Hershko 13 (2004)
            Irwin Rose 14 (2004)
            Roger Kornberg 15 (2006)
            Martin Chalfie 16 (2008)
            Ada Yonath 17 (2009)
            Dan Shechtman 18 (2011)

            Listed below are recipients of the Nobel Prize in physiology or medicine who were, or are, Jewish (or of half- or three-quarters-Jewish descent, as noted). The percentages given above are those corresponding to the names that appear explicitly on the list below.
            Paul Ehrlich # (1908)
            Elie Metchnikoff #,1 (1908)
            Robert Bárány # (1914)
            Otto Meyerhof # (1922)
            Karl Landsteiner # (1930)
            Otto Warburg #,2 (1931)
            Otto Loewi # (1936)
            Joseph Erlanger # (1944)
            Sir Ernst Chain # (1945)
            Hermann Muller #,3 (1946)
            Gerty Cori 4 (1947)
            Tadeus Reichstein # (1950)
            Selman Waksman # (1952)
            Sir Hans Krebs # (1953)
            Fritz Lipmann # (1953)
            Joshua Lederberg # (1958)
            Arthur Kornberg # (1959)
            Konrad Bloch # (1964)
            Francois Jacob # (1965)
            André Lwoff # (1965)
            George Wald # (1967)
            Marshall Nirenberg # (1968)
            Salvador Luria # (1969)
            Julius Axelrod # (1970)
            Sir Bernard Katz # (1970)
            Gerald Edelman # (1972)
            David Baltimore # (1975)
            Howard Temin # (1975)
            Baruch Blumberg # (1976)
            Andrew Schally 5 (1977)
            Rosalyn Yalow # (1977)
            Daniel Nathans # (1978)
            Baruj Benacerraf # (1980)
            Sir John Vane 6 (1982)
            César Milstein # (1984)
            Michael Brown # (1985)
            Joseph Goldstein # (1985)
            Stanley Cohen # (1986)
            Rita Levi-Montalcini # (1986)
            Gertrude Elion # (1988)
            Harold Varmus # (1989)
            Edmond Fischer 7 (1992)
            Alfred Gilman 8 (1994)
            Martin Rodbell 9 (1994)
            Stanley Prusiner 10 (1997)
            Robert Furchgott 11 (1998)
            Paul Greengard 12 (2000)
            Eric Kandel 13 (2000)
            Sydney Brenner 14 (2002)
            H. Robert Horvitz 15 (2002)
            Richard Axel 16 (2004)
            Andrew Z. Fire 17 (2006)
            Bruce Beutler 18 (2011)
            Ralph Steinman 19 (2011)

            Listed below are recipients of the Nobel Prize in physics who were, or are, Jewish (or of half- or three-quarters-Jewish descent, as noted). The percentages given above are those corresponding to only those names that appear explicitly on the list below.
            Albert Michelson #,1 (1907)
            Gabriel Lippmann # (1908)
            Albert Einstein # (1921)
            Niels Bohr #,2 (1922)
            James Franck # (1925)
            Otto Stern # (1943)
            Isidor Rabi # (1944)
            Wolfgang Pauli 3 (1945)
            Felix Bloch # (1952)
            Max Born # (1954)
            Igor Tamm #,4 (1958)
            Ilya Frank 4 (1958)
            Emilio Segrè # (1959)
            Donald Glaser # (1960)
            Robert Hofstadter # (1961)
            Lev Landau # (1962)
            Eugene Wigner 5 (1963)
            Richard Feynman # (1965)
            Julian Schwinger # (1965)
            Hans Bethe #,6 (1967)
            Murray Gell-Mann # (1969)
            Dennis Gabor # (1971)
            Leon Cooper 7 (1972)
            Brian Josephson # (1973)
            Ben Mottelson # (1975)
            Burton Richter # (1976)
            Arno Penzias # (1978)
            Sheldon Glashow # (1979)
            Steven Weinberg # (1979)
            Arthur Schawlow 8 (1981)
            K. Alexander Müller 9 (1987)
            Leon Lederman # (1988)
            Melvin Schwartz # (1988)
            Jack Steinberger # (1988)
            Jerome Friedman # (1990)
            Georges Charpak #,10 (1992)
            Martin Perl #,11 (1995)
            Frederick Reines #,12 (1995)
            David Lee 13 (1996)
            Douglas Osheroff 14 (1996)
            Claude Cohen-Tannoudji 15 (1997)
            Zhores Alferov 16 (2000)
            Vitaly Ginzburg 17 (2003)
            Alexei Abrikosov 18 (2003)
            David Gross 19 (2004)
            H. David Politzer 19 (2004)
            Roy Glauber 20 (2005)
            Saul Perlmutter 21 (2011)
            Adam Riess 22 (2011)

            Listed below are recipients of the Nobel Prize in literature who were, or are, Jewish (or of half-Jewish descent, as noted).
            Paul von Heyse #,1 (1910)
            Henri Bergson # (1927)
            Boris Pasternak # (1958)
            Shmuel Agnon # (1966)
            Nelly Sachs # (1966)
            Saul Bellow # (1976)
            Isaac Bashevis Singer # (1978)
            Elias Canetti # (1981)
            Joseph Brodsky # (1987)
            Nadine Gordimer # (1991)
            Imre Kertész 2 (2002)
            Elfriede Jelinek 3 (2004)
            Harold Pinter 4 (2005)

            Listed below are recipients of the Nobel Prize in economics who were, or are, Jewish (or of half- or three-quarters-Jewish descent, as noted). The percentages given above are those corresponding to only those names that appear explicitly on the list below.
            Paul Samuelson # (1970)
            Simon Kuznets # (1971)
            Kenneth Arrow # (1972)
            Wassily Leontief 1 (1973)
            Leonid Kantorovich # (1975)
            Milton Friedman # (1976)
            Herbert Simon #,2 (1978)
            Lawrence Klein # (1980)
            Franco Modigliani # (1985)
            Robert Solow # (1987)
            Harry Markowitz # (1990)
            Merton Miller 3 (1990)
            Gary Becker # (1992)
            Robert Fogel 4 (1993)
            John Harsanyi 5 (1994)
            Reinhard Selten 6 (1994)
            Robert Merton 7 (1997)
            Myron Scholes 8 (1997)
            George Akerlof 9 (2001)
            Joseph Stiglitz 10 (2001)
            Daniel Kahneman 11 (2002)
            Robert Aumann 12 (2005)
            Leonid (Leo) Hurwicz 13 (2007)
            Eric Maskin 14 (2007)
            Roger Myerson 15 (2007)
            Paul Krugman 16 (2008)
            Elinor Ostrom 17 (2009)
            Peter Diamond 18 (2010)

            Listed immediately below are recipients of the Nobel Peace Prize who were, or are, Jewish. The percentages given above are based on awards made to individuals only, i.e., the statistical calculation excludes awards to organizations. Of the organizations that have received Nobel Peace Prizes, 25% were founded or co-founded principally by Jews or individuals of half-Jewish background. Further discussion of this can be found in footnote [1] below.
            Tobias Asser # (1911)
            Alfred Fried # (1911)
            René Cassin # (1968)
            Henry Kissinger # (1973)
            Menachem Begin # (1978)
            Elie Wiesel # (1986)
            Shimon Peres # (1994)
            Yitzhak Rabin # (1994)
            Sir Joseph Rotblat # (1995)

          • krishnarao says

            I don’t think Mr. Spanky, aka mac, will ever get it. He just cuts and pastes these ridiculously long emails that no one reads. He is an idol worshiping moron and found a way to justify his jesus idol worshiping dog shit religion. He need a life. I never seen someone who is so stupid and closed minded. Its so pathetic he wants to be constantine the murderer. I can see he would love to go on a killing spree if he had his crazy way.

  29. jai shankar says

    @mac,science study in matter not nature,because who is man? Nature or somewhat?? Nature will not study himself.nature and god are different when man uneducated.but man knows truth he see,god is nature and nature is god .this is a nonduality the supreme science of vedanta.but nature and god are different this is s Sankhya philosophy purusha and prakruti.morality is the origin of gods nature.ex.water can not be distroy only convert,mind can not be dead,only hide or convert supreme origin atman.so only word is not god all whole cosmos is the god. That is god is not love but love is god.

    • Mac says

      Basically, you are bearing a wrong notion about spirituality and God.

      John 4:24 God is spirit, and His worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

      1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

      John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

      1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

      1 Corinthians 15:42-43 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

      God created two creations, one is this physical creation in which we live and the second is the spiritual creation. He created spirits from the breath of His nostrils and they are in spiritual bodies, which is immortal. Speaking about resurrection, Jesus said:

      Mark 12:2 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

      There are no females in the spiritual world. Woman means taken from man. Adam said: This is the bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh. She (Eve) shall be called Woman. For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother and unite with her and they shall be called one. Woman was made for the companionship and help of the man.

      God sits above the upper waters in unapproachable (lights) from us. You do not glorify or worship the objects of creation, but the only Living God alone. Spirit gives conscience which judges the morality; right and wrong. This conscience is not found in the objects of creation whom you call nature. Nature is physical creation which works as God had commanded it and had set ordinances to govern it. Science is the study of physical nature. Why should you worship it and make God angry? Who is greater the Creator or the creation?

      Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”

      Ecclesiastes 12:7 For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

      Job 34:14-15 If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, all mankind would perish together and man would return to the dust.

      Isaiah 57:16 I will not accuse forever, nor will I always be angry, for then the spirit of man would grow faint before Me–the breath of man that I have created.

      Look how angry God gets at Israel, while talking to Moses.

      Deutronomy 32:15 Then Jeshurun [Israel] became fat and rebelled—
      you became fat, bloated, and gorged.
      He abandoned the God who made him
      and scorned the Rock of his salvation.
      16 They provoked His jealousy with foreign gods;
      they enraged Him with detestable practices.
      17 They sacrificed to demons, not God,
      to gods they had not known,
      new gods that had just arrived,
      which your fathers did not fear.
      18 You ignored the Rock who gave you birth;
      you forgot the God who gave birth to you.

      19 When the Lord saw this, He despised them,
      provoked to anger by His sons and daughters.
      20 He said: “I will hide My face from them;
      I will see what will become of them,
      for they are a perverse generation—
      unfaithful children.
      21 They have provoked My jealousy
      with their so-called gods;
      they have enraged Me with their worthless idols.
      So I will provoke their jealousy
      with an inferior people;
      I will enrage them with a foolish nation.
      22 For fire has been kindled because of My anger
      and burns to the depths of Sheol;
      it devours the land and its produce,
      and scorches the foundations of the mountains.

      23 “I will pile disasters on them;
      I will use up My arrows against them.
      24 They will be weak from hunger,
      ravaged by pestilence and bitter plague;
      I will unleash on them wild beasts with fangs,
      as well as venomous snakes that slither in the dust.
      25 Outside, the sword will take their children,
      and inside, there will be terror;
      the young man and the young woman will be killed,
      the infant and the gray-haired man.

      THIS is the reason there is no peace in Israel.

      • Jay says

        His notion of Spirituality and God is just fine. What you mean by wrong is that it is not YOUR Jewish/Christian mythology’s spirituality and God. There is no peace in Israel because Arabs and Muslims can’t stand losing an inch of land no matter how miniscule in the Middle East to non-Muslims. According to Islam once land has been occupied by Muslims it is Islamic forever, so Israel since it was under Muslim occupancy for centuries belongs to them forever according to their own faith.

        • Mac says

          When God gave them the law and commanded them to worship Him alone. Some of them went and started practicing idolatry. This is the reason God created enemity and made Israel jealous of other christian nations as God speaks to Moses in the above verses. This enemity will remain until Christ, the promised Messiah comes again to judge them in His full glory. Out of the 70 princes God appointed over the 70 tribes of the sons of Noah’s 3 sons, Archangel Michael is the appointed Prince over Israel and Archangel Dobiel was appointed over Persia. Dobiel messed up.

          • Ankur says

            @Mac: Read through your posts and it is visible that you are seeing the world through biblical lense, the only thing that you quote are from the bible or from christian sources, and when you say that Rig Veda was non-existent when King Darius lived you are not substantiating how you came to this conclusion. you re just confused as you don’t know how to arrive at a logical conclusion backed by valid enlargements the only thing that you resort to is straw-man , you are giving your own definitions of Vedic religion with your own convoluted understanding of Vedic life cycle which per say is your own invention.
            To have a debate and win in it its mandatory to have an understanding of the topic that you are debating, not just jump to conclusions in your mind and claim victory.
            Pathetic

          • Mac says

            God, the only One Living God is NOT a subject of debate. I am just discussing. Rig veda or its writings or even its trace have not been found in the artifacts of Indus valley civilization from where Indians came. In 6th century BC, Darius I took over all those nations of Persia and put Satraps on each of the nations he conquered including Indus valley. There is no mention of any such hindu gods down there or neither Darius’ records mentions any of them. Darius was otherwise a good king. He allowed people and nations to worship their own gods and goddesses.

            Tell me, how far back can you trace the histrocity of the original veda, Rig veda?

          • Jay says

            Your definition of God and that you believe not fact that only your faith is about a Living God , your Jewish mythology, your dogmatic belief since you bothered to come to a Hindu site and spew your blind belief will be up for debate and that is solely because you bring it up here. The only “history” you know is one distorted by Jewish/Christian beliefs where no other religion is mentioned.

          • Mac says

            I am not against U. I have came here to spank the demon in you. I am here to spank the blindfaith in U, the evil which resides in your psyche.

          • krishnarao says

            “I have came here to spank the demon in you. I am here to spank the blindfaith in U, the evil which resides in your psyche.”

            lmaf, lol. What kind of freak talks like that. Really “spank”. Mac you sound like some sexual pervert. You are one sick fool.

          • Jay says

            I am not against U. I have came here to spank the demon in you. I am here to spank the blindfaith in U, the evil which resides in your psyche.

            You sad man Mac. The only demon there is the one in your crazy mind, the blind faith well go look in the mirror, the only evil is in your own psyche. It is your sad pathetic bigoted view of the world that is evil. It is all within YOU and how you view difference.

            It is so sad that Christianity teaches you to be such a bigot that you only see demons and evil in all other faiths for no other reason that they are not Christian and are just different.

          • Mac says

            Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers (rebellious angels), against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

            Ephesians 2:2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler (Satan) of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

  30. jai shankar says

    @mac,Jesus says “I and my Father are one” means it is a philosophy of nonduality in vedanta.the supreme knowledge of vedanta is ‘advaita’ oneness.you think it happen only jejus,ordinary man is impossible.you think Jejus is a god and following his words and prayer to jejus.Hindu philosophy teaches all man are god but potantialy.he forgot his godlyness get bondage in human body.you are hypnotised in self and it is limited.vedanta is a knowledge of dehypnotised of self.tat tavm aasi means you is god.

    • krishnarao says

      Namaste jai shankar, Well said, but I will correct you on one thing. Vedanta does not say we are all God, it says we are all divine. Christians think the worst of humans. We think the best. Again it shows who sick these christians think. We believe in freedom and love and these Christians believe in oppression and hate. Yes, they claim they love, but how can you love when you say everyone is a sinner. And how can you claim freedom when you say you can only go to god through this one historical person from this historical event and historical time. Total junk. That is oppression and total hate. You can’t go by what they say, go by what they believe. Because even the robber thinks he or she is in the right, but that doesn’t make the robber right. Same goes with the jesus freaks.

    • Mac says

      It is not a philosophy. Father and Son are One God. U still do not understand as it is written: The Son was begotten (means called forth) from the radiance of God’s glory. The Son is the exact representation of Father God Almighty and His express image as the scriptures say. God is One God.

      • krishnarao says

        Your right, it isn’t a philosophy, father and son being one person or as you say “god” is actually a total joke. It is total nonsense. This weak fool you call Jesus was a just a man. And to finish off sin you needed God to die on the cross. What kind of god is born as a person and dies. Seriously God isn’t born as human. If you open that door you open the door for everything else. That means God can come as a dog or elephant or pig or anything else. Or maybe even a women or even dog shit. You just opened the door for everything. Unlike you I do not demean God by saying God comes as anything at all. God is formless and I don’t insult God by saying he comes as some 3-D person. I pray only to the one formless God, Omkar, that does not come to earth as anything and insult God.

        • Mac says

          God said: The wages of sin is death and there is no redemption of sin without the pouring of the blood of the firstborn. That is the law God gave. Sin was committed in flesh and so it was also repaid in flesh thru His only begotten Son, holy, unblemished and ultimate sacrificial Lamb of God.

          The scriptures says: For everybody has sinned and have fallen short of God’s glory.

          Pslam 53:2 God looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.

          Romans 3:11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.

          Isaiah 59:14Justice is turned back,
          And righteousness stands far away;
          For truth has stumbled in the street,
          And uprightness cannot enter.

          15Yes, truth is lacking;
          And he who turns aside from evil makes himself a prey.
          Now the LORD saw,
          And it was displeasing in His sight that there was no justice.

          16And He saw that there was no man,
          And was astonished that there was no one to intercede;
          Then His own arm brought salvation to Him,
          And His righteousness upheld Him.

          17He put on righteousness like a breastplate,
          And a helmet of salvation on His head;
          And He put on garments of vengeance for clothing
          And wrapped Himself with zeal as a mantle.

          18According to their deeds, so He will repay,
          Wrath to His adversaries, recompense to His enemies;
          To the coastlands He will make recompense.

          19So they will fear the name of the LORD from the west
          And His glory from the rising of the sun,
          For He will come like a rushing stream
          Which the wind of the LORD drives.

          20“A Redeemer will come to Zion,
          And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,” declares the LORD.

          21“As for Me, this is My covenant with them,” says the LORD: “My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring’s offspring,” says the LORD, “from now and forever.”

          God exacts punishment. God is righteous and all His judgments are righteous.

          Numbers: God is not a man that He should lie.

          • krishnarao says

            YOu keep repeating the same bullshit. You religion of hate doesn’t work against this website of truth. As you can see, no one is defending you because everyone knows you are full of shit. And seriously no one is reading the crap you cut and past on here. You sound like a broken record and a retard.

  31. jai shankar says

    @mac,again you are liying.jejus say i and my father are one means jejus is god,simple.but one and only jejus is god it’s not true.any man knows his godship he declare it,arjuna see lord krishna is almighty god.osho rajneesh also declare he is a bhagwan.ramkrishna paramhansa,avtar meherbaba.al mansoor says he is god.but people not see,because he imagine god is a very super,high,powerful.god acting a simple man like,because he knows he is a god.but man not acting he is a god.

  32. krishnarao says

    Remember Mac is a doing the classic inculturation. He is trying to fit modern science and history of others into his faith. It is basically trying to map out the world and force fit it into your frame of reference. The desert religions do that a lot because they lack the basic understanding of this universe. They play this game with everyone. And they can justify anything by doing that nonsense. Clearly he didn’t make it up, it goes back to the Romain Empire when their boy, Constantine and the Council of Nicea. People like him are just using the refined, but false arguments to justify a false religion. And he is just a tool he doesn’t even know he is being totally used by people from the depths of history. He is Constantie’s bitch.

  33. krishnarao says

    “I have came here to spank the demon in you. I am here to spank the blindfaith in U, the evil which resides in your psyche.”
    – This is what mac said. Yeah, my thoughts too. seriously, who talks like this. This guy is some kind of scary freaky and even spooky F-d up person. I think we should give this freak a nick name. We should call him Mr. Spanky. LMAF.

    From this day on Mac will be known as Mr. Spanky.

        • Jay says

          You want Mac who is talking nonsense himself by saying he goes by Mac Daddy to give reasons to support his claim. How interesting you do not point out how abusive Mac is to Hindus and tell him not to talk nonsense.

        • Jay says

          How dare you come to a Hindu site and warn us. You expect us to take insults to our faith and nonsense spewed by the likes of Mac. You call our faith stupid, you are an internet troll yourself. This is a Hindu site, so you come here and show some respect, don’t you or any other Christian proselytizer dare call our religion stupid, call our Gods and Goddesses demons, call us evil for believing in them. You Mac and all the rest, need to watch your tongue. This is a warning to you that YOU need to take heed.

  34. Mac says

    I agree with you and thanks for your insight. Jesus died so that we may live. I told him, I mul glorify your name amongst the heathens. The gospel has to be brought to them and as Jesus said to Lazarus come out, India needs to come out. We worship the only Living God, the God of power.

    • Jay says

      That is what you don’t get. People are not rejecting God if they don’t think 2000+ year old Middle Eastern Jew Jesus is God. They are rejecting that he is God, and rejecting Middle Eastern Judaism/Christianity as the one way to God.

      We know God through our own ancestral faith and we know God’s love through our own faith and we show our love for God through our own faith.

  35. Mac says

    I have already said that God is not a subject of debate and I am not a debater. I am just discussing the truth here from the valuable ancient texts. I am trying to see thru what ancient world was like. Try to analyze this.

    Look almost all the cultures of this world have the flood story. I pointed out what actually happened after Noah’s flood. Where the idolatry was born as recorded in Book of Jubilees. Its also recorded in Book of Jashar. These are the historical books bible refers. These were written in hebrew and are available now to the public.

    Besides the flood stories in each and every culture, we have some other common things like the “pyramid”, “third eye” and “snake” symbolism found in each and every culture. Both this symbols are of Satan, the Great Serpent of Genesis account. Secondly, all those cultures have astrology common, which Book of Enoch mentions by names of the fallen angels who taught mankind those secrets and arts.

    Krishna crushing the seven headed snake, which is the same the Lord (Adonai Yeshua) killed the Leviathan as mentioned in Psalm. Leviathan was a monster sized fish looked like a snake. Behemoth was a monster sized ox as per aggadic literature and Talmud.

    Psalms 74:14: “It was you who crushed the heads of Leviathan and gave him as food to the creatures of the desert.”

    Rashi comments in Talmud: “According to legend this refers to the Leviathan and its mate. God created a male and female Leviathan, then killed the female and salted it for the righteous, for if the Leviathans were to procreate the world could not stand before them.”

    • Jay says

      No Mac you have no problem discussing our Gods and Goddesses. You just want your Jewish God off limits. And yet again the history you pass off is not history but Jewish stories, and you show your interpretation of symbols such as the 3rd eye again done through Jewish mythology lens.

      • Mac says

        Jay,

        Are we not desis? Are we not hindus? Then, why do you hate me, in the first place? You think, I want to convert you. NO, its not my desire and I am not those harvesters of God called missionaries. God’s appointed ones. I dont give a fill in the blanks about it whether you believe or not? On my own account, I cant do nothing. But, I was called by God. And, unless God calls you, you are not saved. He called cyrus and Darius and in His grace called me too. Thats my joy and happiness in few years of my own life time.

        I, as your blood brother wants you to believe in one God nothing else.

        I am here to find truth talking to your own religion and your own belief system. I believe love covers all wrong doings. Am I wrong in your eyes? If so, tell me. If not, share it with me.

        I will not defy my own blood and my own people, as surely as I worship the Living God, I am tell you truth.

      • Jay says

        You are not a Hindu and I don’t care if you are Desi. You spent all this time denigrating Hinduism and promoting Chrsitianty calling it truth for conversion, and trying to get us to believe in your version of the one God. Don’t deny it now. If you truly don’t care if we believe, then stop denigrating Hinduism and promoting Christianity calling it truth. God! You are not even honest about your repeated attempts at conversion.

  36. Jay says

    Agniveer these threads need to be moderated far better. Now you have Christian proselytizers using the thread to convert. This article is not about Christianity yet it has been hijacked by Christians seeing Hindu converts.

    • krishnarao says

      That is the product of Christianity. To treat everyone else like shit. That is their history and that is their way of life. They have a serious case of insecurity, so they have to demean people by calling them sinners. What kind of retards to that kind of shit. Only a religion that supports the worship of torture and evil. Christianity is clearly a force of destruction and evil

    • Mac says

      Hey,

      You are my flesh and blood, my own race and I dont hate you as surely I worship the Living God, I dont hate you.

      Why art thou afraid and of whom, am I loving you less as your brother, my desi brother?

      And I came to share with you the truth as I understand and make it known and share your truth with me. Do U hate me? Your own blood brother?

      • Jay says

        Right, love huh. You demonize our faith, say we have evil in our psyche, who needs a “love” like yours. You pass of religious bigotry, disrespect and abuse as your love. Desi my ass.

    • Jay says

      Right, you spent a lot of comments proselytizing here on this thread for a person supposedly more interested in chatting just with relatives,friends and colleagues about your Christian gospel.

      The axe of Christian theology. Interesting choice of words. Violent and threatening in fact. You ask us not to denigrate Christianity but then immediately you say you are sure Christian theology is more reasonable than ours. You just cannot help denigrating our faith every chance you get. You and Mac want it one way – Christianity to be off bounds while you heap insult and abuse upon our faith. You should do well to heed your own words to not denigrate others because that is what you, Mac have done repeatedly on this site.

      Agniveer does not have to apologize to you or anyone else. First Christians everywhere must PUBLICLY APOLOGIZE for every single book, every single article of writing, every single website they run demonizing, insulting, abusing, degrading and denigrating Hinduism for the last several centuries, and confess they made a mistake ever comparing Hinduism in the first place and apologize to the Hindu community in all those venues where they ever made references to our faith. Agniveer instead should ban Christian attempts to hijack this forum for the purposes of proselytization. It is one thing to want to respectfully discuss an opposing opinion on what was written. But you did not do that.

      • Ashish says

        @VivJags

        LOL apology for what? For saying truth? Every now & then you dimwits get offended when you countered by truth.

        The war was started by your brethren by making false cases against our hero Rama. Now you want us not to make a counter argument?

        Agniveer has send you a clear message. if you will distort our history we will shake your foundation.

        • Jay says

          Yes the war was started by Christians by what they said about Hinduism which is what Agniveer refuted. And you have already put Hinduism down here on this thread.

        • krishnarao says

          Agreed Ankur,

          The war was started by Christians. They have a double standard. They want everyone to respect their religion, but at the same time completely disrespecting Vedic faith. These people are the most disgusting people on this earth. I have no respect for people like them. I’m still waiting for the apology for Mr. Spanky, a.k.a. mac, and his alter ego vicjags for the insults he spewed at us and the Vedic people at large.

          I demand an apology from Mr. Spanky, a.k.a. mac, and his alter ego vicjags. We are all waiting.

    • Ashish says

      @VicJags

      —As per article 25 of the Indian Constitution, you have every right to practice, profess and propagate your religion, but not to denigrate others.—

      All abrahamic religions denigrate the religion of humanity by dividing us into believers & non-believers.

      —But if you do, you will have to face the axe of Christian theology (which I’m sure is more reasonable than that of yours)—

      Then let it be, why are you worrying about us? Stay away and stop spamming this website?

  37. Jay says

    Oh please you were never a Hindu. You say this to lure Hindus into converting. This is not a site for Christian proselytization. This is not an article about Christianity. You and Mac go proselytize elsewhere.

    • Jay says

      Right. So you say government census lists you as Hindus so you pass your self off as Hindu here. You are committing fraud by not providing correct information on the government census. You are Christian, that is the faith you believe in, not Hinduism and you made that clear.

      • Jay says

        Don’t care about your name. But you are committing fraud by providing false information on the government census. You are a Christian but you lie to the government census about being Hindu. You did change your religion as being Hindu or Christian is not in the government census that your falsely report, it is your faith that you believe in and practice, and your faith is Christianity as you yourself repeatedly said.

        Watch your language here on this site, and knock it off with the name calling. You try to pose yourself as rational and telling everyone to watch how they speak, but fail to follow your own advice.

  38. krishnarao says

    HI Ankur,

    I agree with you about original sin. It is a straw man argument. It is a perfect way to tell people you are a screwed up person for doing nothing. Christians just claim you are born like that because of some ancient relative that ate some apple or some fruit from a forbidden tree, a.k.a. tree of knowledge. When I hear this, there are a ton of things wrong with it. Aside from the fact that christians are not okay with education and knowledge, but they also believe everyone inherits the sins of their ancestors. And it is only the christians that hold the secret. Isn’t that interesting. Only their god or son of god or holy ghost or what-ever the hell he is suppose to be because Christians can’t get his story right, is the only one who can save you. Convenient. That is what we call the biggest and oldest straw man argument in history.

    Christians a liars and christianity hates education. Why else would their religion be against the adam and eve eating from the tree of knowledge. Loser and fools believe in such shit. no respect for that kind of mentality.

    Let’s also not forget that Christians promote the devouring of a person, jesus, sucking on blood, and pray to torture. I have never seen any religion that worships a torture device.

  39. krishnarao says

    I actually think you are the same person as Mr. Spanky. The fact that both of you write ridiculously long emails shows to me that both are the same freakin person. You fools are not tricking anyone else. I guess that is what christianity teaches you, to lie.

    • Mac says

      The difference between him and me is that. I am spiritual and he is religious. And we are not one person. I even dont go to church, I AM and I AM is with me.

    • Jay says

      Vicjag, you have no control on this site, so you do not tell anyone here what the next time they open their mouths they should say.

  40. krishnarao says

    Mr. Spanky, seriously man, you have not solved the original problem. You have convinced your own biased mind, but you have not convinced anyone else. As I pointed out before, the original sin issue is reeking with history centrism. The fact that you put someone else’s sins on all of humanity is a straw man argument. It is the original straw man argument. It is a classic game, you first make a claim that humanity has a problem. And then you claim your religion and only your religion has the solution.

    It reminds me of a movie I saw years ago. Where some european power went and spread a disease, secretly, in an innocent community. After that, they were the ones who came with a treatment for the disease. It was a strategy to make the europeans power look good and win the favor of the community. The people who put the disease in the community was the europeans and than they conveniently came up with a cure for that disease. hmmmmmmm, interesting.

    Story above sounds very similar to christianity. They first inject an idea of original sin into a community and conveniently claim they have a solution which is jesus, the freak. Well the real solution is Meditation, Yoga, and Vedas. With the the trinity of Meditation, Yoga, and Vedas people will not even fall for the ridiculous idea original sin. If you don’t believe in that crap, you are already saved. If instead you believe everyone is divine, you don’t to believe you need some weirdio, a.k.a jesus, to die on a cross for anyone. Only nutt jobs believe that.

    • Mac says

      Tell me my brother, as surely as I worship the living God. Have you not stolen money (laxmidevi) from your mother’s purse or yr granny’s purse!

      Tell me that you never did that.

      Tell me that you never did nothing wrong in your whole life time and that you are the ONLY holy person arya samajist in the whole world and we are fools.

      Tell me from the bottom of your heart if you are a man that you never did anything wrong.

      AND BLESS ME.

    • Jay says

      Original sin is ancestral sin, that mankind shares in the Jewish original man Adam’s sin. That is different from people living life and making mistakes. We have karma for that, but we believe the true essence of people is divine. Life is about learning and growing.

      And no I never stole money or anything else from my family or anyone. We believe that our actions have consequences, Karma. It is empowering. We shape our lives, and we do not live the shadow of anyone else’s errors. The Jewish mythological first man Adam’s mistake is his mistake for him to have worked out, not anyone else.

  41. Mac says

    I am a desi, brother. Why do you hate me? Why do you hate me so much and disregard my beliefs? What wrong have I done?

    I came here to my own blood brothers to share wisdom and truth.

    And, now you hate me! Why dont U crucify me, if it pleases U!

  42. Mac says

    Brother,

    Hindu is citizenship. I am hindu by birth and Bharatvarsh is my motherland. I am my mamas boy..

    Hindu is not your property, it is my forefather’s property. My flesh and blood, I love as surely I worship the Living God.

    And, I love you too, as you are my flesh and blood.

    • Jay says

      You are so lame Mac. You are not a Hindu. You spent countless comments denigrating Hinduism to promote Christianity. You made it clear you are Christian, so stop pretending to be one of us Hindus. No one needs religious bigotry and demonization twistedly passed off as love.

  43. Jay says

    Another dishonest method of conversion by pretending to be Desi. Do you think we care? Do you think that will make us more vulnerable to your proselytization? You are wrong. It is better that a white man than a desi convert denigrating Hinduism. Any desi especially one who was once a Hindu that comes to this site demonizing Hinduism like you and Vicjag just like a white man is far worse. A Desi who converts to Christianity is one thing, I don’t agree with it but that is his choice, but for that Desi to come and denigrate Hinduism anywhere and especially on a Hindu site is quite another thing. So White men Mac and Vicjag, stop pretending to be Desi. That is a bad tactic.

    Agniveer, should moderate this site better and not allow these hijackers to use this this for conversion purposes.

  44. Mac says

    I can understand your ignorance. But, face the truth and the truth will save U. For me, my own blood U, I will never love you less.

    • Jay says

      It is you who ignorant, understand that, lost in your Middle Eastern Jewish mythology that you think is truth that everyone else in the entire world must follow. Our ancestral faith saves us, our ancestral way of seeing the Divine saves us, and has for thousands of years. And we don’t desperately need the entire world to follow our faith, we love others enough to let them not be Hindu, and let them find their own way to God.

  45. Jay says

    Who cares if you are desi even if that were the case? You come here and denigrate demonize and insult our faith in repeated attempts to convert us to your faith and you wonder what you did wrong? Why were are not goo goo ga ga over you?

    This is not a site for prostelyzation. Belief what you want, but don’t come here insulting Hinduism to get us to convert.

  46. Ashish says

    @Vignesh

    —They will enjoy to standby and watch two of their enemies fighting among —

    Don’t jump to conclusions, We’re enemy of none but to people who are against humanity. Show us one article of this website which instigate violence against Muslims or any other sect for that matter.

    Our Muslims brothers know the intention of Agniveer. Just go to FB page of Agniveer & see how many muslims liked it.

  47. Jay says

    Now remind me exactly which comment of mine I wrote as you put in quotes “You and Mac go PROSELYTIZE elsewhere”

    It is about proselytizing, sad that neither you or Mac can be honest about that. You do that by pretending this is all just an intellectual logical exercise, but your true feelings come out, the violence and menace comes out in your comments. You pretend it is only about logic and you are above it all, but I think you use the rhetoric of logical arguments to hide behind. Heed your own words about not talking nonsense about other faiths.

    • Jay says

      Good. Thank you. There are so many comment threads so if you put something in quotes, also refer it when what you are quoting is not directly above in the comment you respond to.

  48. Jay says

    “fight you people”

    Fight huh.

    You people huh.

    Interesting. One the one hand you and Mac try to pass your selves off as one of us (Desi, or even Hindu) to ingratiate yourself like wolves in sheeps clothing, but your aggression comes through, and that you see us as you people the enemy, comes through.

    • Jay says

      You are committing fraud by not telling the truth to the government census that you are not Hindu in anyway but in fact a practicing Christian. The government census is meant to capture accurate data on the population. You knowingly provide false information instead of the fact that you are a practicing Christian not a Hindu.

      Wow you are going to teach Agniveer some humility if he does not voluntarily confess his mistake. Interesting choice of words. Now if you actually spent time commenting on what Agniveer wrote and less time trying to proselytize and denigrating Hinduism. Here your comments are showing your cockiness and lack of humility in your attempts in comparative religion.

      Agniveer should moderate this site better to prevent people from hijacking this site to proselytize their own faith.

    • Jay says

      These are your words in your final plea comment below “When I accepted Christ, it took me sometime to come out of original faith…” You are not a Hindu by your own admission, Your name does not make you a Hindu, your false report to government census does not make you a Hindu.

  49. Ashish says

    @VicJags

    You didn’t make sense in any of your posts. Why are you so hell bent on changing Agniveer’s stance on Christianity? Isn’t it his website? He has every right to express what he feels right?

    For once even if we agreed that Agniveer is novice, has zero knowledge etc on Bible, Jesus. He didn’t have time to read all of its visitors comments, so if you think that by posting few random comments can get you an apology then you’re mistaken.

    Why don’t you make your own website and put the rebuttals there? Publish the articles on social media or where ever you feel can fetch you some readers & let the world know Agniveer’s level of ignorance.

    • Jay says

      Yes he does have a right to express his counter arguments to what Christians have said about Hinduism, which is what he did on this site. You want him to stop talking about Christianity, then first Christians need to stop talking and denigrating Hinduism. Agniveer very much has the right. Christians should take their own advice about limiting what they express about their feeling on other faiths. You are cunningly trying to stop people from speaking up against what things Christians have said by saying they have no right. You Christians say smack about Hindus so expect that we are going to have our own feeling which we will express, and our own counter arguments back. You don’t tell what us we can express. You are not the boss of us, especially when there has been zero limit on the nasty, ugly viscous things you Christians have said about Hinduism. By doing that you open your self up to criticism in any way we want to express it. There is something called freedom of speech, which protects freedom to say what others find offensive. Since Christian have no interest in changing any one of their many websites insulting Hinduism then we are going to counter it with more free speech. It is us standing up to you and the nasty things you say that upsets you and you want to silence us. This is not Pakistan, where the government terrorism people into silence but punishing people according to blasphemy laws. You want Christianity off limits but not Hinduism, you want to intimidate Hindus from speaking out and expressing themselves especially in response to what Christians have written, but you Christians say all the ugly things about Hinduism you feel like expressing.

    • Ashish says

      @Zakir Naik

      — Isn’t that your first complaint against Zakir Naik. —

      NO our complaint is against HATE SPEECH. Every human being has a right to express anything what he feels, unless he is not inciting VIOLENCE. This is freedom, tolerance which you slaves of Jesus will never understand.

      Agniveer team posted rebuttal after rebuttal of Zakir’s claims, they demanded a ban on him only after he delivered hate speech against non-believers.

      —When I present my case,—
      That’s my point, where’s your case? Where are your counter arguments backed by facts? All i see is load of rhetorical posts demanding an apology without putting any facts?

      Now, this might get into your peanut size brain that people can be offended by anything.

      A guy might believe in Mickey Mouse as son of God. People who’re making cartoon of MM are offending him, what should he do then?

  50. Hari says

    @ VICJAGS

    There was a swami hailed even by vivekananda as the perfect man in northern kerala. He was Chattambi swamikal . He was a great critique of christianity at time where resources to study history of religion was difficult . Now we have internet.He was saviour of sanatana dharma from evil missionaries to some extent . But no one listened to him properly which is reason why hindus are becoming minorities in kerala. .Here thing is no on is objecting jesus . the very term christ is krishna in greek it is kristos . 300 years after death of jesus paul the pharisee who has not even seen jesus and who was very much against christianity ( actual term would be jesuism ). He is father of christianity . what he did was he was agent of mixing up . Crucifixion was punishment given for blasphemy in rome and many part of europe .Paul , he mixed every aspects of roman mythological heroes , sun god mithra , spanish hero who is represented as one died for whole mankind in spanish folks and other myths such that no one could understand it properly.He assosciated these characteristics to physical jesus and made him a god. Moreover sun worship has asosciation with cross . Everything which christianity has is paganism and judaism fused to physical jesus.Even christianity has absurd teaching that animals have no souls. jesus resurrection is a mere myth as stephen knapp has said in his book of “vedic influence in ancient cultures”.It is actually after paul emperor constantine used pauls ideologies further to added further stories . even miracles , giving bread to thousand is based on roman mythology. jesus was no god or divine . What constantine did was destroying pagan shrines by grafting and copying pagan rituals to his belief for political dominance. But still they call other pagans as evil and papish . So one can understand that christianity is based on combination of various pagan beliefs currupted and mixed yet calling others evil means they donot no what they are believing.Even greek gospels have nothing to do with christianity. paul and his followers copied greek gospels , and return of christ is actually paganism inspired from east.This is how this religion spread , that is blasphemy and destruvtion for political dominance of rome . When we seperate pagan elements one by one christianity is left with nothing . So what christians did was inculturation that destroyed rome and its culture . We donot know may be jesus was inspired , but there are many questions regarding his historicity still now and debate is going now . John the baptist a mandean was the one who baptized jesus and that religion has roots in indian philosophy . they didnot start any religion or anything . it was spirituality there . So what i want to say is that sanatana dharma is not a man made religion . You donot need to have converted to christianity as jesus inspired by john was not a crusader.By believing in our dharma u can respect jesus . Christ has nothing to do with jesus. It was added to jesus later . That is whole story of jesus is based on krishnaism and buddhism . To be frank we still donot have actual figure of jesus before paul. Modern scholars are unclear about the very historicity of jesus . Even gospels were not written eye witness . It was added to him later by 150 yrs after the so called death of jesus . Christianity is 90 percent politics and 10 percent spirituality. By converting u have made our great saints fools because they fought for our dharmas revival during colonial rule.These christian missionaries donot respect our dharma , why because by accusing one religion only they can believe . You can visit website of chattambi swamikal on internet to know what i told . Many christians in kerala are now understanding fault of conversion to foreign faith.

    • Jay says

      Hari, let us not get side tracked by these Christian proselytizers who are trying to hijack this thread for conversion. Don’t assume what he tells you is true that he was ever a Hindu. Even if he was so what. His conversion is his own business, and has zero impact in our saints. It does not make them fools just because he converted. That is silly. When he comes to this site to proselytize promoting Christianity and denigrating Hinduism then it is our dharma is to speak up against that. Don’t bother trying to make him the center of this thread by trying to get him to realize the error of his ways in converting out. I think Mac and Vic are pretending to have been Desi and former Hindus as slick ways to ingratiate themselves to Hindus and lure us into conversion. Oh they converted so maybe there is something to it and we should as well. Don’t fall for it. Stick to countering his arguments. But like I said even if he were once a Hindu so what. He has stated he is a practicing Christian, and he is here not writing in a calm way on the points in the article of this thread that he disagrees with but telling people to shut up, trying to silence us, and also denigrating Hinduism while promoting Christianity in his comments just like Mac. They want Christianity off limits but Hinduism not, and want what ugly things they say about Hinduism to go unchallenged by us, while having repeated put Hinduism down here.

    • Mac says

      Apostle Thomas came and converted about 300 half naked brahmins (suryavanshis) doing sun worship at the coast. Apostle Thomas performed a miracle sitting in his boat. He took water in his palm and sent it to his God and it never came down in full view of those 300 brahmins. He also spoke in their language.

      Apostle Paul was a rabbi (teacher of law) and a pharisee. His name was Saul until Jesus visited him and changed his name to Paul. Saul was in charge of executing those who follow Jesus Christ (The Way). The Sanhedrin had appointed Saul to execute Jesus followers. Paul was the student of Raban Gamaliel, the Elder, author of Mishnah and Talmud; a Member of Sanhedrine (jewish court) as also he was the neighbour of Jesus Christ in Jerusalem. Saul executed a lot of early christians before Jesus appeared to him on the way to Damacus and Jesus said: “Saul, why do you persecute me?”. This is after Jesus’ resurrection. Saul was blinded for 3 days and night.

    • Mac says

      Animal do you spirits (ruah) not soul, soul is the covering of the spirit. As Paul says: “Whether their (animal’s) spirits go up or down, I dont know”. The reason the animals are dumb is that when the Serpent came and seduced Adam and Eve; and they ate the fruit, which God told them not to eat. All animals remained dumb, they didnt stopped Adam and Eve from eating. So God took away their tongue means “ability to speak” like humans. Until then they were speaking with Adam and Eve.

      Secondly, christianity came to India the same decade Jesus resurrected.

      Thirdly, if you understand Paul, you understand 40% of the scriptures. He was a pharisee Rabbi. He had two citizenship Greek and Israeli. He spoke more than 3 languages.

  51. Jay says

    “So again request you to let us follow our own path. If you find it troubling, develop more websites like this, teach your people about vedas and upanishads. Tell them about your Gods, and you can do all of this without involving Christianity or Jesus. I have no issues as long as you refrain yourself with that.”

    Every single Christian should follow this advice, including you and Mac. If you Christians have said nothing ever about Hinduism and stuck only to the bible without speaking of Hinduism, then there would be no need for us to say anything about Christianity, to counter the false things you say. But not in any of the centuries has Christianity done that and neither have you or Mac in your comments here. Agniveer has the right to counter claims by Christians in his writings.

    • Mac says

      Hindu word is a foreign word, its a persian word. Those other people of middle-east called the residents of Indus valley as Hindus. So phonetic variance is there like Indu, Indi, Indus, Hindi, Hindu, Shindhu and Brits called us Ind-ian. There is no such thing as hinduism. Moghuls specifically used this word to differentiate themselves from us. There were hundred of small kings and tribes. They were not united as Bharat. It was Brits who united today’s India.

      I will give you the four way classification of the religions of this world.

      Daniel Defoe described the original definition as follows: “Religion is properly the Worship given to God, but ’tis also applied to the Worship of Idols and false Deities.” At the turn of the 19th century, in between 1780 and 1810, the language dramatically changed: instead of “religion” being synonymous with spirituality, authors began using the plural, “religions”, to refer to both Christianity and other forms of worship. Therefore, Hannah Adams’s early encyclopedia, for example, had its name changed from An Alphabetical Compendium of the Various Sects… to A Dictionary of All Religions and Religious Denominations.

      In 1838, the four-way division of Christianity, Judaism, Mahommedanism (archaic terminology for Islam) and Paganism was multiplied considerably by Josiah Conder’s Analytical and Comparative View of All Religions Now Extant among Mankind. Conder’s work still adheres to the four-way classification, but in his eye for detail he puts together much historical work to create something resembling our modern Western image: he includes Druze, Yezidis, Mandeans, and Elamites [Persians/Indians] under a list of possibly monotheistic groups, and under the final category, of “polytheism and pantheism”, he lists Zoroastrianism, “Vedas, Puranas, Tantras, Reformed sects” of India as well as “Brahminical idolatry”, Vaishnavism, Shivism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Lamaism, “religion of China and Japan”, and “illiterate superstitions”.

  52. Jay says

    The only thing Agniveer said in reference to Christianity on this article is this “We also believe that if barabaric religion like Christinity and Islam have not gained popularity than we would have more datas to prove our point conclusively. These two semetic religion have inflicted unparrelled havoc on historical datas and buildings. They destroyed all the libraries/monuments of historical importance which does not confer their beliefs.”

    That Christians and Muslims have destroyed non-Christian and non-Muslim information is something that is said in Western countries as well. Agniveer has said nothing new that Westerners have not already said. So if you have a problem with that, then you have a problem with many in the West to begin with.

    • Jay says

      And this “The only thing of significance regarding theory of evolution, we want to state here is that it was a tool which was invented to challenge the draconian supremacy of church. The church use to claim that this world was created by God out of nothing and the age of this Univerese is not more than 10000 years. By the help of evolutionary theory scientific world challenged the supremacy of churh and overcame the clergy.)”

      But that was not about Christianity it was more this this author’s view on evolution theory and its purpose.

    • Jay says

      Here is just one link that has nothing to do with Hinduism or Indians on this. There is a lot of work in the West extremely critical of Christianity and its devastating destruction of ancient knowledge. So if you have a problem with that you have a problem with a lot of Westerners and Agniveer’s reference to such destruction in a few sentences on this article is nothing compared to that http://freetruth.50webs.org/A1.htm

      • Jay says

        My fellow Hindus this site is actually worth going through each its sections,each of the tabs http://freetruth.50webs.org/Index.htm . Let yourself know how Westerners have criticized Christianity. Christianity is not from Europe. It is from the Middle East. Jesus is not a European, is is not a White man, but a Middle Eastern Jew. Europeans were converted and often times not gently. Every nasty thing they have said about Hinduism they first said it to Europeans and ancient European religions, then to the people in the Americas and Africa they encountered.

      • Mac says

        The term “Ancient of Days” and “Lord of Hosts” stands for Yeshua Ha Mashaich.

        Jesus said: Before Abraham was, I AM (Yah).

    • Mac says

      It is still there in London museum and else where. They have coins from Abraham’s time. The cylinder of Cyrus is still there. They still have the mummy of Pharoah of Egypt intact, whom Moses faced. Also Jesus’ cave and cave of machpelah were all patriarchs and matriarchs were laid is still there. Tomb of Rachel is there. House of Jesus Christ, Soddom and Gommorah are visitor’s places. There are so much biblical archeology of ancient times still there.

      What do you have? temples!!!!

  53. Hari says

    The only way to destroy foundation of christianity is by spreading chattambi swamikal teachings across india . He was a great man . If this guy is trying to hijack our website we shud either immediately sack him or we shud convert him by agniveer iniation , because these creeds are enemies of this country . when christianity is loosing in west , they r now trying to fool indians. Indian swamis shud not just medidate in den , they shud come forward .
    They shud clearly differentiate between vedic and non vedic people or aryan and non aryan .Sanatanis shud not be shocked to see aghoris and nath yogis . They r non vedic and non aryan and are not part of vedic culture , even though they orginated from vedic peoples.Animism and cannibalism is not vedic even though they worship cosmic energy which vedas prescribe . donot confuse with non vedic sects . we shud immediately stop these non vedic rituals .

    • Jay says

      Then counter his arguments that he makes here but don’t try to convert him back. You make him the center then you revolving around changing him. This is not a thread about him. This is about Ram. When they try to hijack the thread speak up and counter what they said.

      As for what is Vedic or not, let us not be intolerant like other faiths have shown towards difference within their ranks and towards other faiths. Point out if something is Vedic or not is useful and informative but any non vedic practices that do not violate the law or is not unhealthy I don’t think we should have stopped. Tolerance and diversity is Sanatana Dharma strength. I don’t think cannabalism is a problem in India in any faith, what an odd thing to bring up. That is more a pacific island thing. Plus it is illegal anyway.

      • Mac says

        What do you want to say about Aghoris? Arent they vedic people? What about devadashi pratha (temple prostitution) practiced by brahmins? What about Sati pratha? What about child marriage and dowry? Are these all not vedic practice? Veda calls meat mahaprasad? In vedic sacrifices they kill by jhatka, the most unimaginable and brutal practice I have ever seen. Why dont you stop those practices? Do you try to stop them? Purushamedha, Balamedha and Ashwamedha are all vedic practices. Do U follow them? Why do you have to ring the bell when you go to temple?

      • krishnarao says

        As I said before, you keep posting false things about Vedas and Dharmic people. I asked you before Mr. Spanky, if you are going to make a claim about either, provide proof from an approved translated copy of the Vedas:

        1. Tell use how translated the that copy of the Vedas

        2. Which verse you are talking about

        3. Which Vedic group approves it

        4. Where can I go buy or checkout a copy of it.

        5. Who published that copy of the Vedas.

        You did not even do a proper Perva Paksha and you make up shit about us. Before you make claims about us, it is important to first understand where we stand not what some christian extremist says where we stand. If you just want to play the game of making up shit, you will not convince anyone. It sounds to me like you want to spread lies to try and convert. Seriously you come on this site and try and do that, wrong place man. Here many people want to learn the truth, and your lies about the Vedic faith will get you no where. You really are a sick and perverted person.

        And in regards to jesus and his so called place of rest. They actually do not know if the one they claim is the real one. They are assuming it. As I said before, Christianity is a fabricated religion. It was made up by the Romain emperor constantie for power. He needed to create a book, so he took out of the hundreds of different christian books that contradicted each other only the ones that didn’t. In was only a handful that didn’t. And even those contract each other, but they contract each other the least compared to the other books. Your butt buddy constantie killed off anyone else that supported any of the other books. We still have remanence of the books that were excluded from the bible. And christains today are stuck in a quagmire. They don’t know what to do about it. Because much of the other books contradict constantie’s bible. It’s so funny to see all this. And the most important point is Jesus didn’t even write any of his shit down. The fact that the religion is history centric, no one can replicate what he did, so now you have to believe in secondary source. WEAK. With the Vedas, people can replicate the experience what the Rishis have done. So the source is the highest state of experience during meditation and Yoga. And people have replicated and we keep it current. Unlike your christian crap where it isn’t current and unreproducible. The biggest joke on earth is the christian religion with its contradictions and fake bullshit where it won’t teach people the biggest and highest proof of all. How to reproduce the experience that their top dog had so everyone can become the jesus. Instead there jesus was a power hunger retard that just wanted to make people follow him. Message of God is against that. We don’t need intermediaries, we just need God.

  54. Hari says

    Jay , I have a small doubt that is when we search internet we find that swami vivekanada advised meat and beaf and he even ate meat in america . he says ancient brahmins were considered non hindus unless they eat meat.

    • Jay says

      First the whole context is important. Agniveer already wrote an article on how there is no beef in the Vedas and went to explain the misconceptions that have been promoted. Vivekananda wrote that in reference to Smritis (not the Vedas) being limited in time to a particular age and local customs while the Vedas are eternal. Plus he does not reference where he got that it ever such a time that it was ok for Brahmins to eat beef, so have to take that statement with a grain of salt. Nevertheless the context Vivekananda brought that up was in reference to Smritis being particular to an age and then age related practices reforming and stopping in the next age and not to the eternity of the Vedas.

      “…But beyond this there is a still greater difficulty. There are two sorts of truth we find in our Shâstras, one that is based upon the eternal nature of man — the one that deals with the eternal relation of God, soul, and nature; the other, with local circumstances, environments of the time, social institutions of the period, and so forth. The first class of truths is chiefly embodied in our Vedas, our scriptures; the second in the Smritis, the Puranas. etc. We must remember that for all periods the Vedas are the final goal and authority, and if the Purânas differ in any respect from the Vedas, that part of the Puranas is to be rejected without mercy. We find, then, that in all these Smritis the teachings are different. One Smriti says, this is the custom, and this should be the practice of this age. Another one says, this is the practice of this age, and so forth. This is the Âchâra which should be the custom of the Satya Yuga, and this is the Achara which should be the custom of the Kali Yuga, and so forth. Now this is one of the most glorious doctrines that you have, that eternal truths, being based upon the nature of man, will never change so long as man lives; they are for all times, omnipresent, universal virtues. But the Smritis speak generally of local circumstances, of duties arising from different environments, and they change in the course of time. This you have always to remember that because a little social custom is going to be changed you are not going to lose your religion, not at all. Remember these customs have already been changed. There was a time in this very India when, without eating beef, no Brahmin could remain a Brahmin; you read in the Vedas how, when a Sannyasin, a king, or a great man came into a house, the best bullock was killed; how in time it was found that as we were an agricultural race, killing the best bulls meant annihilation of the race. Therefore the practice was stopped, and a voice was raised against the killing of cows. Sometimes we find existing then what we now consider the most horrible customs. In course of time other laws had to be made. These in turn will have to go, and other Smritis will come. This is one fact we have to learn that the Vedas being eternal will be one and the same throughout all ages, but the Smritis will have an end. As time rolls on, more and more of the Smritis will go, sages will come, and they will change and direct society into better channels, into duties and into paths which accord with the necessity of the age, and without which it is impossible that society can live. Thus we have to guide our course, avoiding these two dangers; and I hope that every one of us here will have breadth enough, and at the same time faith enough, to understand what that means, which I suppose is the inclusion of everything, and not the exclusion. I want the intensity of the fanatic plus the extensity of the materialist. Deep as the ocean, broad as the infinite skies, that is the sort of heart we want. Let us be as progressive as any nation that ever existed, and at the same time as faithful and conservative towards our traditions as Hindus alone know how to be….”

    • Ashish says

      @Hari

      Vivekanada was not a Sanskrit master. He was under false impression that Max Muller and his team has good intention to translate ‘sacred-texts’. He believed them blindly, hence the confusion.

      Meat eating is strictly prohibited in Vedas. So there is no question of consuming beef.

    • Mac says

      It is called Mahaprasad. Eating is about faith. If you faith is weak, you will eat veggies only. However, again eating is about faith, let it not become a stumbling block for your brother. If his conscience has a stumbling block, do not eat for your brother’s sake in his presence. And always thank the Provider (JEHOVAH-JIREH: “The Lord will Provide).

      Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh
      Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh
      Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh

      Adonai Elohim Tzva’ Ot.

      Asher Hayah
      V’ Hoveh V’ Yavo.

    • Mac says

      It is called Mahaprasad.

      On youtube, just type “mass animal sacrifice” or “Gadhimai animal sacrifice” and see hindus brutally (jhatka) kill thousands of cows in one single event. It is vedic brutality. They even dont know how to kill an animal.

      Eating is about faith. If you faith is weak, you will eat veggies only. However, again eating is about faith, let it not become a stumbling block for your brother. If his conscience has a stumbling block, do not eat for your brother’s sake in his presence. And always thank the Provider (JEHOVAH-JIREH: “The Lord will Provide).

      Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh
      Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh
      Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh

      Adonai Elohim Tzva’ Ot.

      Asher Hayah
      V’ Hoveh V’ Yavo.

      • Mac says

        This is a spiritual subject and it is my domain, I will explain to you. Koshar or Halal is a God approved method of killing an animal. In Koshar killing they take a very sharp knife, twist the neck so the animal feels little pain. The shochet needs to cut through the Trachea, Esophagus, carotid artery and the jugular vein. Both of these shield the esophagus and trachea at the place where the cut is to take place. This would lead to a fairly quick bleed out with the animal becoming nonsensical in a matter of seconds. The brain stops receiving blood supply and oxygen; the animal is clinically dead without any more of the pain.

        Whereas in vedic Jhatka method. The animal’s body goes into shock and the life is trapped into the body for a long while as it bleeds thru. This is the MOST brutal way of killing an animal.

        In modern times, they have invented new method at commercial killings. They give very high powered shock directly to the head and the brain stops working.

        Pain is felt by the animal, if its brain is still working.

      • SDC says

        So, when you twist someone’s neck, you feel very little pain, huh. And you are an authority in Jewish methods of killing, I believe. Wow! You should be awarded a Nobel for this piece of shit. So, when the head is severed from the body in jhatka, does the brain stop receiving blood supply and oxygen from the body or it does not, moron?

        • Mac says

          For Koshar method I gave you the scientific reason already. They do not twist the neck to break it or to suffocate it. They twist the neck to get the right spot as also the animal should feel little pain in that its body would not go in shock. It only takes few seconds.

          In Jhatka method, the body goes in shock, it hardens and traps both blood and life in the body. Then gradually for minutes as it starts to loosen up and bleed, the life lives the body painfully. This is extreme brutality.

          God has made mankind the Lord over all living things. That does not mean that you have to treat animals so brutally.

        • SDC says

          Scientific reason! Are you kidding me? Are there are any such points in the neck where an animal feels little pain when its throat is being slit?

          I would ask the readers to look at how animals are killed in the kosher method in youtube and judge for themselves if that poor animal writhes in pain or not.

          In jhatka, the brain is severed from the body. We know that the brain interprets the signals from the body that it receives through the nervous system via the spinal column. Now, theoretically, in jhatka when the brain is no longer receiving any signals from the body, it is plausible to assume that the the pain generated in the system is not being interpreted at all and hence not felt although we can never say that with certainty. It is amazing that you will go to any length to defend such a cruel practice.

          • Mac says

            In commercial butchering , they use high powered electric shock. Have you heard the term “red meat”? It is full of blood, the tissues hold the blood although the animal is dead. The animal instantly dies because the high powered electric shock given directly to their head FRIES their brian in an instant. The animal is dead instantly but the body cannot recognize it, it goes into shock and holds the blood in its tissues. Jhatka method is the same kind but extremely brutal. With Jhatka method, the animal will still walk a few feet before its senses starts to realize and it fall. The shock contracts the muscles and the tissues hold the blood and life in shock.

            I will contain on this blog with one statement. Vedic sacrifice of Jhatka is EXTREMELY BRUTAL. I have already explained to you the scientific reason of clean Koshar kill. But for you I have a video proof. You can see it for yourself. You do not need no further proof and there are many vedic sacrifice videos on youtube which are self-explanatory. You decide.

            Here is the link

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quvkfkU-KZk

            and the title of the video is “Animal Sacrifice at Gadhimai Festival “. There is a lot more videos on vedic sacrifice, brutal enogh to make me loose my appetite, on youtube.

          • Mac says

            I did watched the video. That is what I said, it takes few seconds and the animal should feel little pain for a while as it gives up its life. Animal moves because of the blood letting, it has to be that way. It is the most efficient method approved by God to kill an animal. Koshar is one slit………period.

            Whereas Jhatak traps both life and blood in the body for a longer while and it is the most brutal way of killing an animal. Even the big cats (tigers and lions) dont kill their prey that way. They bite at the neck draining the blood from the main vein. Jhatka method is more wild and brutal than those big cats.

            I do hunting and fishing. Both gracefully and with respect for the lives of animals I kill for food.

            Do U even understand when I say “the life and blood are trapped in Jhatka method for a longer while”? Do U understand the meaning of it? German nazis wanted to kill all non-blue-eyed people and that is what they did. And you are showing me a video of those nazis BIG LIES to support your idiocy of brutal vedic killing of animals!

            The sting of death is in every life. Every life feels the sting of death when the life is about to pass away. Let us not make it a sting of death as BRUTAL.

          • SDC says

            Unfortunately, the dead animals will not be able to give us a first-hand account of their ordeal. In any case, I have already given you the reason as to why the jhatka method (the severance of the head from the torso from a single blow of a sharp object) should be painless (It is an assumption though). You simply do not make sense when you wildly assume that it is more painful and brutal than the kosher method.

          • Mac says

            Chicken’s neck is so small that it is difficult to Koshar a chicken and it also has feathers. They cut the chicken’s whole neck and you can see the chicken will still walk all over and flutter its wings. A beheading can be a messy and extremely painful thing to see, let alone experience. It has been shown that random brain activity can continue for many minutes, ending in a flurry of activity reminiscent of a brain seizure.

            Jhatka method TRAPS the life and blood both inside the body as it goes in SHOCK and it is the most cruel method. When they go deer hunting they usually either shoot right at the heart or brain, the deer will collapse on the spot. If shot at any other part of the body the deer will run half a mile and die in pain.

          • SDC says

            We are not comparing jhatka with a fatal shot to the heart or to the brain. You will need to understand the mechanism of pain in order to come to a conclusion. If the brain does not receive pain impulses from the body, how will it know pain? You will have to watch the Russian headless dog experiment video for more. I am not providing the link, just search in Youtube.

          • Mac says

            Try experimenting yourself at home. Catch a lizard (readily available at home) and cut its tail. You will see that the tail would move for minutes together and lizard will live. In Jhatka when you cut the animals head with one stroke, its body goes in shock and tightens the muscles. So its tissues holds blood, which gives life to its body. The brain works and the spin also receives and sends impulses and IT DOES FEEL PAIN for a long while.

            In one of my above posts, I have mentioned 7 commands God gave to Noah. This is the last one “not to eat flesh cut from a LIVING animal “. This is the wisdom of the law. You DO NOT CUT A LIVING ANIMAL INTO PIECES. You have to first kill it and then cut it into pieces.

          • SDC says

            There is a limit to sophistry. The lizard’s tail is detachable from the body and the lizard can regrow a tail. The starfish also has this ability. For more see this link:

            http://knowledgesalad.com/useful/why-does-a-severed-lizards-tail-still-move/

            Try to understand as to how we feel pain and why some feel that a quick decapitation is painless or comparatively less painful than other methods of slaughtering. And what is this wisdom of not cutting up into pieces of a “living animal” that you keep harping on? Are you trying to suggest that the poor animal does not feel any pain when it is being killed?

          • Mac says

            SDC, I have already explained to you in details . I have given you both scientific reason and spiritual from the Scriptures, I am again going to quote the scientific reason.

            “The shochet (knife) needs to cut through the Trachea, Esophagus, carotid artery and the jugular vein. Both of these shield the esophagus and trachea at the place where the cut is to take place. This would lead to a fairly quick bleed out with the animal becoming nonsensical in a matter of seconds. The brain stops receiving blood supply and oxygen; the animal is clinically dead without any more of the pain.”

          • SDC says

            Either one has to go through these 2 processes of slaughter and give us an insight into the amount of pain generated which is impracticable or one has understand the mechanism of pain to come to any rational conclusion. In a brain dead person also, the body lives but the person is declared clinically dead. When the brain dies, we are at a point of no return. When in kosher, the connection between the body and the brain is still intact through the spinal column, the brain is able to interpret the pain signals from the body. In fact, the kosher method is in some ways similar to strangulation in so far as the trachea is severed thereby hindering the supply of air.

  55. krishnarao says

    These jesus slaves are such morons. The run around talking about some living god. they actually don’t understand that is hurting their cause not helping. In Dharmic faiths it is clear that God is not born. So when you say God is born you make your god wimpy and not really a GOd. Just a man masquerading as a God. Some of my good friends are Sikh and that is what they also point out. God is not born. If we believe that, we open the door for God being born as dog, elephant or anything else. God is beyond being born. God is just the highest state of consciousness in all the universes. If these retard jesus freaks don’t get that, they really have some major religious ego mental problems.

  56. hari says

    Jay and Ashish

    Thanks for your comments and my doubt is cleared , so have we bharathians made a mistake by making vivekananda a revolutionary of hinduism .
    So were Ram and krishna against these horrific customs because some people again take from ramayan and tell that Ram had ate meat and all. Is there anything relevant.

    • Jay says

      I did not say that about Vivekananda. I said to read the whole context of what he actually wrote which was not about promoting beef eating but about how Smritis are local and age specific while the Vedas are eternal. In fact he showed evolution and progress from the Smritis. He did a lot of good work for the time for Hinduism.

    • Jay says

      I don’t see the big deal about eating other meats (besides beef) and seafood like poultry, lamb, fish etc… you are allowed to eat meat and seafood in Hinduism, it is not mandatory for all Hindus to be strict vegetarians. Vegetarianism is seen as better and is encouraged if you are able to do it, but meat eating (beef excluded) is not forbidden. Most Hindus I know including family members eat meat of some sort (but not beef) and/or seafood. So for me it matters not if Ram and Krishna ate other meats. Their spiritual teachings does not hinge on being vegetarian or not.

      • Jay says

        FYI I say this as a vegetarian. A person is not necessarily a better person just because he or she does not eat meat. The Dalai Lama eats meat, and i think he is further along the spiritual path than I. He tried but his body could not take a pure vegetarian diet. Lots of friends I know also tried vegetarianism but is was not right for their bodies. Some did stick to it. When I look to Ram or Krishna, I don’t care about their diet. I am interested in what they taught. With regards to meat eating in general, I think not everyone can or should. But what we should be concerned about is how livestock are treated while alive and how they are killed. There is no need for them to suffer. While alive they should be treated well, and when time to slaughter them it should be done with the least amount of suffering. There is a woman here named Temple Grandin http://www.templegrandin.com/ who is an amazing woman who worked with slaughterhouses to create more humane practices so the animals suffer very little. She is also amazing because she has autism. Why would a person who cares about animals work in the slaughterhouses? Well people who care for animal welfare probably are most needed in the slaughterhouses to make sure animals are not suffering needlessly. Her work was very beneficial and helped improve the standards for slaughterhouses. Buy from companies who engage in animal welfare – like free range, and no cage, etc… If you can be a vegetarian, that is good, that is not the be all end all.

  57. Jay says

    Agniveer also moderate this site for the length of comments. Spammers like Mac post these ridiculously copied and pasted long posts that go on forever.

    • Jay says

      Agniveer you need to do better moderating of this site to make sure it is not hijacked by people bringing up topics that have nothing to do with the article. Don’t let Christian proselytizers like Mac and Vic bring up theology when you did not even bring up theology but referred to history, and use this site for proselytization on top of it. And the length of these posts by guys like them is way too long. This is not a place for a dissertation.

    • Jay says

      Our faith seeks not to destroy any other faith. We leave them be. We don’t have to agree with their theology and we are free to express theological disagreement, and we most certainly should speak up against anything that denigrates and abuses Hinduism, but that is all.

      • says

        chattampi swamikal of kerla had written a book on analysis of christianity name christ mat darpanam. i had gone through that book.it was published in 1890. most important to note is that this book was inspired from 13th chapter of satyarth prakash by swami dayanand on christianity

      • krishnarao says

        Jay, your right, Mac, a.k.a Mr. Spanky can’t think for himself. The proof is the copy and paste BS he keeping doing on here. What a total joke. Clearly the robot age has come upon us. Mr. Spanky is one of the rudimentary kind that can just copies and pastes. No advanced features what so ever. His system has overloaded and now he has gone into infinite loop. Core dump on its way. That will be a final grand act where he floods the page with a copy of the entire book of nonsense, a.k.a the bible. Be careful it can flood your emails around the world. Mr. Spanky, go get a life.

  58. hari says

    AGNIVEER SHUD STUDY CHATTAMBI SWAMIKAL TEXT TO KNOW THAT CHRISTIANITY IS FALSE . THEY R WORSHIPPING DEMON BY THEIR DEEDS . THEY SHOULD BE WIPED OFF FROM THIS PLANET . SON OF BITCHES.

    • Jay says

      It is not our faith to say that others worship demons. That is what Christians like Mac and many others say as per their faith. The other paths that other people may follow is not relevant to us. We defend the dharma from their nasty depictions and distortions of our own faith. That is our duty. No one here is advocating any violence against them and neither should you.

  59. Jay says

    Oh Vic, Agniveer criticized the destruction of ancient knowledge by Christians here on this site which is well understood in the West. He did not even engage in criticizing Christian theology on this article but actions by Christians in history against non-Christian sources of documentation and information. He is free to do so but he didn’t on this article. So are going on about Christian theology when Agniveer hadn’t on this article. Discussion of history is going to come from research from others. So yes showing sites that go into detail of Christian destruction of non-Christian information is valid. Especially a site like that which references its source documentation.

    You talk about mudslinging tactics yet you have repeated gone off name calling. you tout so much how rational you are but you do your bit in mudslinging. Watch your filthy mouth on this site. You think you come off as superior by calling people morons, idiots, retards. No my dear you do not, certainly not rational and cerebral but highly emotional and silly. All you have shown is how thin your skin is and how quickly you get violent and nasty when people stand up to you. My God you talk about teaching Agniveer humility but your post are so full of arrogance and haughtiness and pride.

    My argument is not Agniveer can criticize Christianity because others have, but pointing out that what Agniveer said in a few sentences of Christian action (not even theology) is nothing compared to what others have done. It was a criticism about YOU and YOUR overblown huffing and puffing reaction to barely any few sentences that did not even have anything on Christian theology. You are far from rational, but highly emotional have have yet brought up in any of your posts any thing about what Agniveer actually did write here. You went off a the war path about everything else. Not rational, but highly emotional and irrelevant.

    You are not a Hindu, you stated you are a practicing Christian, and have left your old faith. You already acknowledged you changed your faith, and are not a Hindu. Whether or not you want to go and change it officially, it is a lie that you put down that you are Hindu for the government census. You can make all the excuses you want does not change that you are lying to the government. The government does not force conversion, the census by government relies upon its people to tell the truth and you did not do that.

  60. Jay says

    Your post in the next two days better refer to the only thing that Agniveer said about Christianity which was about actions of Christians in history against the libraries and historical data and building and not Christian theology. Don’t even think about bring up Christian theology not one thing and falsely accuse Agniveer of saying anything about that. He is free to do so but he did not here, so you better write about what he did write about Christianity which is this “We also believe that if barabaric religion like Christinity and Islam have not gained popularity than we would have more datas to prove our point conclusively. These two semetic religion have inflicted unparrelled havoc on historical datas and buildings. They destroyed all the libraries/monuments of historical importance which does not confer their beliefs.”

  61. Jay says

    “I will continue typing my long post, which will definitely interest our Muslim brothers,” You’ve said this more than once. You seem oddly concerned about Muslims observing your interacting with Hindus. Who cares. You think that is going to intimidate us like we will keep quiet so they don’t over hear us engaging you. No. That is what? Another threat or warning from you? Like we are going to be more vulnerable to Muslims because of your attacks on us so we should keep quiet and not stand up to you. No. Christian nastiness towards Hinduism is nothing new and neither is Islamic nastiness. Who cares who else reads.

  62. Mac says

    There are no conversions by allurement. Yes, christians donate and give to poors not for converting them. Christian countries are donating since centuries to poor countries. They send ships full of stuff.

    See it is God’s CALL. You cannot convert anybody by force for you cannot change a human heart from outside. Circumcision is the circumcision of heart, change of heart.

    Romans 11:19 For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.

    Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

    Romans 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

    1 Corinthians 1:26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.

    Ephesians 4:1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.

    Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit–just as you were called to one hope when you were called–

    Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

    2 Thessalonians 1:11 With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith.

    • says

      mac

      just one question bible says that god of bible created confusion of languages among humans so that they fight with each other. do you accept that problem of non acceptance of hindi by south indians is due to bible.

      • Mac says

        First thing I will tell you is that the only Living God, the Self-existant One our Creator is a righteous God. Goodness is His character alone. We are just trying to practice His goodness, but we are not good, we still sin.

        Well, all the descendents of Noah’s 3 sons lived together at Babylon (Ur, Najaf and Fallujah, sunni triangle) under one King Nimrod, who was building a tower to reach upto heavens. He said: Let us build a tower upto the heavens and go there and make war with those who brought flood on the earth and killed all flesh. Nimrod was a Sorcerer, a great one, who was able to talk to the Powers and Principalities (warring angels, rebellious angels) in heavens directly. Nimrod also had the clothing of Adam, stolen by his father Ham (Noah cursed Ham’s son Canaan) with him. When he wore that clothing and goes to hunt, he was a mighty one. As he was a mighty hunter in God’s eyes as the scriptures says. At that time there was one language of the people.

        Genesis 11:7 Come, let’s go down and confuse their language, so that they won’t understand each other’s speech.

        When it says “let’s go down”, it means there were two who came down, Father and Son, Elohim (plural of Eloah means God, a single plural). God divided the tongue of the people, so they cannot communicate. Their plan failed and they were divided and spread in different directions exactly as God had earlier planned the allotment of the earth for them as per the division of the earth by Noah for his three sons and their sons also divided their portions amongst their sons by lot as per the records of the Book of Jubilees.

        Lately, thereafter as the demons had already appeared and misled them. Idolatry and violence erupted and they warred with each other. Demons are the left over spirits of dead giants who died in Noah’s flood. They were wise, bloodthirsty, violent and warring. Because they proceeded from fallen angels called Nephilims (half angels and half humans, who came directly in flesh leaving their spiritual bodies) and women; God so decreed that their place shall be on earth and not heavens until the great day of judgement.

        God loves His creation and God loves His children. But, when His children goes to somebody else a stranger and calls them their fathers, God the Father Almighty gets angry. He has a right to get angry. God created all creation for His glory. We cant give anything to God as all creation belongs to Him and neither He is asking anything from us, He gives, He is the Provider.

        Isaiah 42:8 “I am the LORD (YWHW); that is My Name! I will not give My glory to another or My praise to idols.”

      • Mac says

        You are a cry baby, SDC. Until Brits came, India was not even a country. It was made up of small kings and tribes, hundereds of them. They were fighting amongst themselves. Much of the life was nomadic and thats how Mughals succeded in taking over those small kings. Face the truth. Brits united all those small kings under their rule and so now we have a large country, we proudly call it India our motherland.

        I am going to quote Winston Churchill and I am sure you would not like it what he said.

        It is said that sixty four years ago, during the last days of the British rule, Indians hated British Prime Minister The Right Honorable Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill, KG, OM, CH, FRS, PC who steadfastly opposed the grant of freedom to India by his vituperative statements such as:

        Power will go to the hands of rascals, rogues and freebooters. All Indian leaders will be of low calibre and men of straw. They will have sweet tongues and silly hearts. They will fight amongst themselves for power and India will be lost in political squabbles. A day would come when even air and water would be taxed.”

        “India is merely a geographical expression. It is no more a single country than the equator.

        Sir Winston Churchill was a visionary and was able to visualize what kind of political set-up, bureaucratic and Education system the Britishers were leaving behind them. After 65 years of Independence we now realize that Churchill was a true prophet and foretold of what was in store for the good people of India – a social welfare state.

        Sir Winston Churchill was a visionary and was able to visualize what kind of political set-up, bureaucratic and Education system the Britishers were leaving behind them. After 65 years of Independence we now realize that Churchill was a true prophet and foretold of what was in store for the good people of India – a social welfare state.

        We have to admit, barring a very few notable exceptions among our leaders, that all our present day Indian politicians are of ‘low caliber’ who make hay while sun shines by mortgaging our freedom for the welfare of their own families.

        In the present political arena in India, the political parties keep aside all their moral principles just before the elections and ally with their political enemies.

        While canvassing for votes, these ‘rascals, rogues and freebooters’ come to our doorsteps, and with ‘sweet tongues’ inviegle us by competing with each other by doling out instant cash as per the number of votes in each household and also promise to give non-existing freebies when their party wins.

        After the elections, the winning parties part their ways and “will fight amongst themselves for power and India will be lost in political squabbles’.

        Sir Winston Curchil’s prediction, ‘A day would come when even air and water would be taxed’ has come true. Even polluted and contaminated water is taxed by municipal corporations, townships, and village panchayats.

        Selling water, once considered a sin, is now a booming business because the government is unable to supply clean, potable water to its citizens. Raw water is supplied by tankers and purified potable mineral water in canisters and bottles

      • SDC says

        Probably, the sting of the truth was too hot to handle for this Anglicized bluffmaster. So, you mean to say that there was an organized Judaeo-Christian state even before Aryavarta. The early Christians were themselves nomads, Jewish bootlicker. I am going to quote 2 crafty Christians to expose your nefarious agenda:

        Lord Macaulay’s address to the British Parliament in 2 February, 1835:

        “I have traveled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief. Such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such calibre, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage, and, therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self-esteem, their native self-culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation.”

        Henry Kissinger,the time of the Turkish invasion in Cyprus, while addressing a group of Washington, D.C. businessmen in Sept.1974:

        “The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame. For this reason we must strike deep into their cultural roots: Perhaps then we can force them to conform. I mean, of course, to strike at their language, their religion, their cultural and historical reserves, so that we can neutralize their ability to develop, to distinguish themselves, or to prevail. Thereby removing them as an obstacle to our strategically vital plans in the Balkans, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East, to all this neuralgic territory of great strategic importance for us, for
        the politics of the USA.”

        • Mac says

          There were no christians until Jesus came over 2000 years ago. Romans, Greeks, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ethiopians, Chinese and Egyptians had their own idol gods and goddess. Early christians were executed by both the Jews, Greeks and Romans. They killed hundreds of thousands of them. But, it so happened that as the persecution increased, christianity spread in the world rapidly.

          I will give you a lucid picture of the ancient world then. There were 70 nations born out of the 3 sons of Noah viz. Shem, Ham and Japheth. 26 nations were born out of Shem. 30 nations were born out of Ham and 14 nations were born out of Japheth. Out of the many great kings who ruled thereafter were Pharoah of Egypt, Sennacharib of Assyria, Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon and King David and King Solomon. Thereafter, a nation arose named Persia and its King were Cyrus the Great, Darius I, Ashuraures. They conqurered almost 80% of the world. After them came a conquerer from north named Alexander the Great, who conqured almost all of the world and defeated Darius II. They also had Changize Khan in far east.

          India got urbanized from the time of Chandragupta Maurya I gradually. The land was full of small kings and tribal leaders, mostly nomadic tribes then. When Darius I started to conquer nations, he also conquered Indus valley and its sourrounding nations. He put up Satraps over nations kinda Governors.

          Shem, who is called “the father of all the children of Eber,” was born when Noah had attained the age of 500 years (Genesis 5:32). Though married at the time of the Flood, Shem was then childless. Two years after the Flood, Shem being then 100 years old, his son Arpachshad was born (Genesis 11:10), and was followed by further sons and daughters during the remaining 500 years which preceded Shem’s death.

          Noah’s prophetic blessing, on awakening from his wine, may be regarded as having been fulfilled in his descendants, who occupied Syria (Aramaic), Palestine (Canaan), Chaldea (Arpachshad), Assyria (Asshur), part of Persia (Elam/Indians/Persians), and Arabia (Joktan). In the first three of these, as well as in Elam, Canaanites had settled (if not in the other districts mentioned), but Shemites ruled, at some time or other, over the Canaanites, and Canaan thus became “his servant” (Genesis 9:25,26). The tablets found in Cappadocia seem to show that Shemites (Assyrians) had settled in that district also, but this was apparently an unimportant colony. Though designated sons of Shem, some of his descendants (e.g. the Elamites/Indians/Persians) did not speak a Semitic language, while other nationalities, not his descendants (e.g. the Canaanites), did.

          The immediate descendants of Japheth were seven in number, and are represented by the nations designated Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Mesech, and Tiras; or, roughly, the Armenians, Lydians, Medes, Greeks, Tibarenians, and Moschians, the last, Tiras, remaining still obscure. The sons of Gomer (Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah) were all settled in the West Asian tract; while the sons of Javan (Elisah, Tarshish, Kittim and Dodanim or Rodanim) occupied the Mediterranean coast and the adjacent islands.

          The nationalities described as Hamitic–a parallel to those of the Semitic section–were so called because they fell under Egyptian dominion. This would make the original Hamitic race to have been Egyptian and account for Ham as a (poetical) designation of that nationality. Professor F. L. Griffith has pointed out that the Egyptian Priapic god of Panopolis (Akhmim), sometimes called Menu, but also apparently known as Khem, may have been identified with the ancestor of the Hamitic race–he was worshipped from the coast of the Red Sea to Coptos, and must have been well known to Egypt’s eastern neighbors. He regards the characteristics of Menu as being in accord with the shamelessness of Ham as recorded in Genesis 9:20.

          Four Sons of Ham were Mizraim (Egypt), Cush (Sudan, Ethiopia), Put (Lybia), Canaan (Hivites, Jebusites, Arvadites, Girgashites, Amorites, Arkites, Sinites (Chinese), Hittites, Sidonians, Perizzites, Zemarites)

        • SDC says

          I need to make a confession here. The source from where I copied Macaulay’s address to British Parliament does not seem to be authentic and hence is doubtful although some claim that the statement was made off the record. I erred on that count. I should have double-checked it. My bad. But this link will definitely give you an insight into the making of history:

          http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=359456387468721&set=a.245163898897971.59595.244970388917322&type=1&theater

          I hope Mr. Mac has answers to the questions that have been raised there.

          In as far as Noah’s sons populating the world is concerned, I have already put forth my views against it. I am not going to do a rehash of the same. In as far India getting urbanized from the time of Chandragupta I is concerned, I believe I posted a link detailing the main features of the Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization that dates back to over 5000 years. Also, I would like you to search for Mehrgarh which is now seen as a precursor to the Indus Valley Civilization.

    • Mac says

      No, I have not misunderstood you. You are right on the track. You are doing good. I just added little more sense to your contention with verses. I thought the spiritual aspect you should not miss and the truth remains. You are doing good.

  63. Jay says

    Watch your filthy mouth here. Name calling is a poor reflection on you. Don’t think by doing so you will come off well. You refer to yourself as “The Lordship” and we your slaves. That is so sick. You really think you come off as rational. You come off as disgusting. Who do you think you are to think it is ok to call others slaves or any other filthy name, and arrogantly refer to yourself as “The Lordship.” No one here is your slave, you sick man. Your posts are filled with such haughtiness and arrogance and foul language.

    -You came here saying Agniveer should not have said this or that about Christian theology. So far you have not in any of your posts addressed what Agniveer has actually written on Christianity, but have gone off accusing him of criticizing Christian theology which is false. So if you have a rebuttal or argument to what Agniveer actually did write in this article on Christianity regarding history which I quoted above then do it. Don’t falsely accuse Agniveer of something and go argue against it, and demand an apology for something he did not write. So yes your rebuttal on Christianity made by must be on what Agniveer actually wrote about Christianity.

    -If you have doubts on NON-Christian points of history that Agniveer has made which is the most of the article, that is a completely different topic and has nothing to do with Christianity. If that is what you want to debate with someone else commenting on this site, go for it. But that is completely different from your accusations towards Agniveer and your basis for demands for Agniveer to apologize or put disclaimers for Christians. Since it is you who have accused Agniveer of saying false things about Christianity In your rebuttal to Agniveer it must be to what Agniveer said on Christian which is a statement on Christian destruction of libraries.

    -Premise: All Christians are evil people.

    Conclusions: Therefore Christianity should be false.

    That is your premise. Not mine. Agniveer also in this article did not say that either. Agniveer pointed out that Christians have historically destroyed ancient libraries. Does that mean all Christians are evil, no. And he wrote nothing on Christian theology. So you are arguing against a premise no one made. The rest of your post talking about that premise (that is yours and not ours) go is irrelevant as no one but you made it.

    -And also irrelevant is the random miscellaneous issue you bring up Aryan and Dravidian debate out of the blue. Again you are bringing up a topic not addressed in this article and not relevant to your demands that Agniveer apologize for what he wrote regarding Christianity. My point by referring to the site that shows historical destruction by Christians against non-Christian sites was to support Agniveers statement he wrote in the article that Christians have destroyed libraries, and had nothing to do with the Aryan/Dravidian debate you now brought up out of nowhere. It is you and you alone who out of the blue now wants to go into Aryan/Dravidian debate. A completely irrelevant topic unrelated to this article and your false accusations against Agniveer about statement he made regarding Christian theology and to your demands that Agniveer apologize to Christians.

    -Regarding Christian historical destruction of nonChristian sites such as libraries, you said in your above comment “I WILL SIMPLY ACCEPT IT when it says Christians cruelly destroyed non christian sites” The one thing that Agniveer wrote in the article about Christians is that Christians destroyed ancient non-Christian libraries, and you said you accept that Christians destroyed non-Christian sties. There is nothing then to Christians that Agniveer needs to apologize for or put a disclaimer on. He did not write anything about Christian theology, so nothing to apologize regarding that, and he wrote Christians destroyed non-Christian sites such as libraries and you accept that Christians destroyed non-Christian site and so nothing to apologize regarding history either. So what are your going to post about rebutting what Agniveer wrote regarding Christianity here on this article to support your demands that Agniveer apologize to Christians?

    – As for your abusive foul language reply to the issue of what you tell the Government, it is such a good display of your base character and arrogance. I think worse of you not better. And don’t think others reading it are going to think better of your vile language. Your premises are false. My point was not that Government has made it mandatory that you officially convert. My point is about YOU telling the truth about your real faith to the government census. I get that you are still on record officially Hindu, that you don’t have to officially change it, and that is what you report to the government census. But it is still false information. The truth is you are a practicing Christian as you stated. When you choose not to update your official record on what your faith is, you are allowing false information to remain. Again the point is YOU telling the truth, not what the government makes mandatory or not. The official record is false and so what the government gets on its census is also in reality false.

    -As for what I asked Agniveer, I asked them to moderate these posts better since too many are way too long and this is not a place to cut and past half of a book, and also to moderate it to keep it better on topic of the article above, and not let it be hijacked by proselytizers for conversion purposes. Frankly your rambling posts are mostly not logical. You often are off topic and bring up completely irrelevant things, and go off on long ad hominem attacks and disgusting foul language. And you think your impress people.

  64. krishnarao says

    Christianity is an idol worshiping religion that is history centric. It was made up by Constantine during the council of nicea. Simple fact that Christians do not want to face. The bible is made up by Constantine and now the whole Christian world has been duped by one powerful Romain Emperor with his own ambitions to become the most powerful ruler in the world. Christians like mr. spanky has major problems because he does not want to face the truth. He does not want to face the fact that Christianity is a fake religion and more christians everyday are leaving that crazy faith.

  65. krishnarao says

    The retention rate in Christianity is the worst in the world. I live in the U.S. and every day more people are leaving Christianity here. As well as Europe. I know so many Americans that are getting into Hinduism, Sikhi, Buddhism, and Jainism. The fastest growing religion the U.S. is between two major religions. They are Buddhism and Mormonism, and as we know most mainstream christians find mormonism to be a corruption of christianity. I personally know many ex-christians that are sick of christianity. Why do you think Obama is such a hit. The republican side in the U.S. has usually been siding with Christian extremists and missionaries. People are sick of them. That is why Democrats are winning. And when I say people leaving Christianity, I mean people from all races. I have met black people, white people, Hispanics, and even arabs who come from christian back grounds. It is a very common thing. And they all tell me that the axioms that make up christianity make no sense. the Christian trinity is totally bogus. Vast majority only follow it culturally and more and more are even willing to change that once they become more knowledgeable about Vedic Hinduism, Sikhi, or Buddhism. I have met so many black, white, and Hispanic and even arab buddhists in the U.S. Seriously, Christianity is dieing, and in one last desperate effort, churches are trying to redirect their money to Asia to try and save themselves, but Asia’s fighting back as well. They know christianity is a total bogus religion. Everyone I ask say the christian trinity makes no sense. It is total bullshit.

    • krishnarao says

      You are a total fool Mr. Spanky. I lived in the us for the last 30+ years. I have seen how things changed. If anyone, its you who looks like total retard and moron.

      “Buddhism is being recognized as the fastest growing religion in Western societies both in terms of new converts and more so in terms of friends of Buddhism, who seek to study and practice various aspects of Buddhism.[3][4] As in the United States, Buddhism is ranked among the fastest growing religions in many Western European countries.[5]

      The Australian Bureau of Statistics through statistical analysis held Buddhism to be the fastest growing spiritual tradition/religion in Australia in terms of percentage gain with a growth of 79.1% for the period 1996 to 2001 (200,000→358,000).[6] However, because Australia is statistically small, no inferences can be drawn from that for the whole world.

      Buddhism is the fastest-growing religion in England’s jails, with the number of followers rising eightfold over the past decade”
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion#cite_note-4

      I don’t think you have ever stepped into a Buddhist temple before. Unlike you I have, and they are the most multi-ethinic religion in the US. I have seen people from all races. Just because you live inside a box and never want to get your tiny little brain hurt doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. Go to buddhist temple, google and research for yourself you stupid retard.

      And yet you still have not provided any solid claims about the comments you made about Vedic people. I am still waiting for quotes from the Vedas translated by an accepted and recognized Vedic group. If you are the expert you claim you are, provide the Vedic translator, Vedic group that supports the translation of the Vedas, and Publisher. Since you are the big fat expert, I want proof, so I can go research it for myself. And don’t give me translations give to you by some christian. Seriously you are going to stoop that low. I can just make up translations about your bible as well and make shit up. BE A MAN YOU FOOL. Stop being such a spanked retard. And provide real proof for once. Stop hiding and running away from the proof question I keep asking you. You are really a wimpy fool.

      • Mac says

        I love cartoons. I love to watch Tom and Jerry. I just love cartoons like U. U bring joy to my heart, when I read U. Thank U.

        You said: I have been living here since 30 years and still you are eating vedic fill in the blanks. LOL! I told you I love cartoons like U.

        Now, Islam says our relgion is the religion of Adam and Eve. Thinking as if Adam and Eve ever practiced a religion. It is thru Adam and Eve that the sin entered the world. And they are the children of God, made by God’s hands. They only broke one command of God. They are the sons and daughters of God as per geneology.

        Then, you come here my wise pandit krishnarao, and you say: Our religion is trillions of year old. Just because it is written in vedas, the truth of our beliefs.

        I am not even a religious person like U. I am a spiritual person and I have already seen thru U. Vedas birth, I have already exposed in my earlier posts. Then, why I am wasting my time here. Because, I in the first place came here to discuss not debate, the truth, the wisdom and the knowledge, I thought I want to share it with my people. I thought may be something I may not know, I can learn it from you and may be we both together can find some truth and share it. But U R hell bound in condemning and cursing.
        God bless.

      • krishnarao says

        Mr. Spanky, a.k.a. Mac, You really are a total retard. Again you made a bunch of claims about the Vedas. You haven’t given me one verse translated by a Vedic scholar on here. Give me the name of the Vedic Scholar. The Verse, the publisher, and the Vedic group that supports that translation. I am waiting you BIG FAT CHEAT.

        Unlike you I have given proof that Buddhism is the fastest growing religion in the West. Incase you have forgotten I will repost.

        “Buddhism is being recognized as the fastest growing religion in Western societies both in terms of new converts and more so in terms of friends of Buddhism, who seek to study and practice various aspects of Buddhism.[3][4] As in the United States, Buddhism is ranked among the fastest growing religions in many Western European countries.[5]

        The Australian Bureau of Statistics through statistical analysis held Buddhism to be the fastest growing spiritual tradition/religion in Australia in terms of percentage gain with a growth of 79.1% for the period 1996 to 2001 (200,000→358,000).[6] However, because Australia is statistically small, no inferences can be drawn from that for the whole world.

        Buddhism is the fastest-growing religion in England’s jails, with the number of followers rising eightfold over the past decade”
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion#cite_note-4

        I’m sure you are burning inside because you see your white brother who you wish to be exactly like leaving the very thing you wanted to be like. Because they even know that christianity is total bullshit. LOL. And every day that goes by more people will and are leaving Christianity. I personally met many Westerns that left Christianity. They know what non-sense it is. Get over yourself, they want to live a life that leads to truth and they know for a fact Christianity doesn’t. And they are also sick of the lies that the church puts out about Dharmic religions. Like you the Church also does not quote from Vedas, they make stuff up. They do not give translations by Vedic scholars, nor do they give name of a translator, or the verse, or the Vedic group that supports a translations, or the publisher. They have ZERO proof. And in the West when you are given ZERO proof people stop believing the shit you say. And that is what you have done. Given ZERO proof.

        • Mac says

          krishnarao, You write garbage. You think bad mouthing would win you an arguement. The meanness that you show on this blog is self-explanatory of your being. It shows how you were raised.

          Buddha was born in 563 BC before Christ. Then, why there are no majority of buddhists in the world population as you say that it is the fastest growing religion in the world today? Why the majority of the world population today follows Abrahamic religions?

      • krishnarao says

        Mr. Spanky, a.k.a. Mac,

        The only person on here who pushed their filth is you. You popped on this site and started spewing your disgusting sewer shit on this website. By you calling anyone a demon worshiper makes you a screwed up person. That is the worst from of hate to call someone that. Clearly you follow a religion of pure hate to make such comments about people.

        Quote me the line where I made this comment, “buddhists in the world population as you say that it is the fastest growing religion in the world today?”
        – Where did I say the “world.” You are making up stuff again. I said it was the fastest growing religion in the West. not the world.

        So now you have two thing you need to give me proof on. You made all these claims about Vedic people. Give me the proof of the claims you made about Vedic people:

        1. Quote from the Vedas
        2. The name of the Vedic practicing person who translated the Verse and copy of the Vedas.
        3. The publisher of the Vedas.
        4. The name of the Vedic group that supports that translation of the Vedas.

        Give me the proof you little wimp. Stop running away from this question. I will not stop posting this until you respond. You came on here like you were an expert on Hindus. Now put your money where you mouth is and give people proof big boy. Don’t try and hide behind your insults mr. spanky. Be a man for once and give proof.

        The next thing you need to give proof to is where I said, as you claim, “buddhists in the world population as you say that it is the fastest growing religion in the world today?” Go through my comments and show me where I made this statement. Give me the quote and date when I posted it. Because I never made this claim. GIVE ME PROOF BIG BOY.

        If you can’t prove the claims you made, just state you made a mistake and you were wrong. Don’t be a pussy, be a man and admit it when you are wrong.

    • krishnarao says

      And stop acting like vicjags and you are two different people Mr. Spanky. Comments from both are filled with total nonsense just slightly different personas, Mr. Spanky.

      “icjags has explained to you christianity in layman’s terms very nicely. ”
      – LMAF…….. You have to be joking. Seriously, Christianity is an utter joke. It is filled with hate and filth and as I said before, the trinity of christianity makes zero sense. Infact it is harmful to society. It is causing the retardation of society by believing in that nonsense.

      “but preach it with blurting venom without any base.”
      – Can someone say hypocrite. If anything you are the retard that came on this page and started preaching hate with pure venom. Your the dumbshit that called others on here demon worshipers. Seriously you need to take a note from you own page you dipshit. I’m not the one who runs around telling them they will go to hell. You are a sick human being. And most important, your dumbass comes on a Vedic site and tells people they worship this god or that god which are demons. As I said before, this is a Vedic site, we DO NOT BELIEVE in idol worship. We, only, believe in praying to the One God, Omkar. But as I said before, your dumbass didn’t do proper research of us. If you wanted to talk about idol worship, you should have gone to a mainstream Hindu site, or even to your own church and tell them jesus worship is idol worship. But the fact that you were soooooo stupid and tell people here they worship many gods is a mute point. Because Vedic people consider idol worship against the path to GOd. And that include, praying to idols, belief in son of god or praying to him, or even belief in prophets. We are against all of that nonsense. We believe anyone can connect with God. The importance is the techniques. We don’t believe in or support mongoloid power hunger people like your jesus or Constantine the creator of your bible and religion Christianity. So seriously, go check yourself fool.

      • Mac says

        LOL!

        Bro., Cursing me makes you feel happy? Let it be so, be happy. And God bless.

        Cursing christianity makes you feel happy? Let it be so, be happy. I say: God bless you again.

        John 15:18 Jesus said: If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.

        Matthew 10:22 Jesus said: All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

        Matthew 24:9 Jesus said: Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

        John 7:7 Jesus said: The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil.

        Anyway, your hatred is not your fault, you are born into it.

        God bless.

      • krishnarao says

        Calling people demons worshipers will get you no where. Only your religion of hate, a.k.a christainity, which was made up by the romains, makes such statements about people you hate monger.