We present an insightful article by eminent scholar of Vedas and History – Sri Rajveer Arya (aryarajveer @ gmail.com) written three years ago on the issue of Sri Rama being a myth or a historical legend. Its evident from the facts that Sir Rama was not only an Indian legend but a global phenomenon. There can be nothing more shameful than living in India and yet denigrating one of its greatest role models. Kindly read and circulate widely on eve of the Ayodhya judgement:

Nowadays, the issue of Ramsetu is highly talked about by many people. The government filed an affidavit before the Supreme Court which clearly denies the historical existence of Shri Rama on this earth. However, the strong opposing political parties, and other Hindu activists forced that the givernment withdrew the affidavit. Some Hindu organizations like Vishwa Hindu Parishad, claim that posing questions relating to the existence of Rama cannot be simply answered by scientific or historical data.

The existence of Rama is basically a question of faith for millions of people. Therefore, no government or any other party can deny the existence of Rama. Some of these so-called “great advocates” of Hinduism did not show guts to take on the Government/Karunanidhi, and proved that Rama is as historical fact and not a myth.

Nevertheless, they were supported from unexpected quarters like the Hurriyat conference from Kashmir. Hurriayat also claimed that scientific or historical evidence is not the yardstick to judge various issues related to religion. Hence, whether Rama existed or not cannot be decided on basis of scientific or historical findings. This is basically associated with religious sentiments of millions of people around the world, and therefore the interference of any government or political party is undesired.

As of now, many scientists, based on astronomical data, have propounded that Rama existed around 5044 BC. In such a perplexing situation it becomes very difficult for common masses to arrive at any conclusive view regarding the existence of Rama. Hence, we have to first analyze various facts regarding Rama, and his epic, Ramayana, before arriving on any final verdict.

Maharishi Valmiki, in order to guide the future generations, decided to write a historical epic that can help everyone follow a path of morality and righteousness. He ended up in a dilemma regarding this issue. Later on, he consulted Narada Muni, who in return suggested him to write about Rama, the son of Dasratha, who was born in the clan of Raghu.

Similarly, Mahakavi Kalidas wrote Raghuvansham. This book throws light on the lineage of Raghu, and also states various kings who ruled after Rama. So, now the point of the argument is that if Rama was a mythological character, then how did Valmiki provide the history of Rama’s forefathers?

In Raghuvansham, how did Kalidasa provide details of Rama’s forefathers, and his various Santatis (successors) who ruled after him? In present times various books dealing with stories of Rama are prevalent in India and around the world. We will throw light on this issue in the latter part of this article.

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WHEN WAS RAMA BORN: (based on Valmiki`s Ramayana)

One of the most anticipated topics in this modern era is that when was Rama born?

Before dwelling onto this point, we have to understand that our great Maharishies have systematically divided the period of shristi into Manvantars. Each Manvantar is further divided into chaturyugis. Each chaturyugis consist of Krita (satyuga), traita, dwapar, and kaliyuga. The present Manvantar is Vaivast Manvantar. So far, twenty-seven chaturyugies have already been passed. Right now, it is the 28th chaturyugi, and we are still in the first charan (period) of this chaturyugi.

It is a well-known fact that Rama was born during the latter part of traita. Hence, if we assume that Rama was born in the present chaturyugi, then it means that he was born at least 1,000,000 years ago. The period of his birth will probably be more than this.

However, Vayu purana provides us the correct chronological period of Ramayana. If we take Vayu purana’s period into consideration then the period of Rama becomes at least 18,000,000 years old. Hence, we can easily conclude that the period of Rama in the time scale is at least 1000,000 to 8,000, 000 years. This issue will be resolved in another topic called “Blunders of Indian History”).

This particular view is also supported by the fact that when Hanuman travelled to Shri Lanka in the search of Sita, over there he saw elephants having four teeth. Hence, this is now an issue for archaeologists/biologists to ascertain when did such elephants exist on earth? (The calculations of chaturyugies will be dealt with in another topic called “Age of present shristi”).

The difficulties encountered in establishing chronological correctness of historical events for the period before Christ will be dealt with in the other article called “Blunders of History.”  Another interesting fact that has been mentioned in Valmiki’s Ramayana is that the maternal home of Bharat and Shatrughan was in a country where transportations took place in the form of vehicles being propelled by dogs or deers. When the two brothers returned to Ayodhya from their maternal home, they crossed many places covered by snow, and were also dressed up in clothes made of wool. Now, the location in which this episode took place is yet to be ascertained.

According to our logic, this episode took place in Russia, and phonetically Russia sounds like misnomer of a Rishi, but this has been taken care of in our article called “Blunder of Indian/World history”. From the facts mentioned above, it clearly gives us an insight into the period of Rama’s birth. So, those who claim that Rama is only a mythological character have been proven wrong since we have provided them with so much evidence in this article. We will also establish that before the advent of Christianity and Islam, Rama was revered throughout the world as an international cult figure.

LEGENDS OF RAMAYANA IN VARIOUS PARTS OF GLOBE

1) RAMAYANA IN RUSSIA AND MANGOLIA:

The Deccan Herald, on 15th December 1972, on its front page gave the news in which it stated that a story relating to Ramayana was published in Elista, capital city of Kalmyk, in Russia. The news further stated that various legends of Ramayana were popular among people of Kalmyk. Many versions of Ramayana are already stored in the libraries of Kalmyk. The news clearly stated that legends of Ramayana were extremely popular since time immemorial. Domodin Suren, a Russian writer, has mentioned various legends that were popular among Mongolian and Kalmyk people. Prof C F Glostunky`s manuscript called “Academy of Sciences”, is located at Siberian Branch of Erstwhile, U.S.S.R. This book deals with various legends popular along the Coast of Volga River, and its manuscript is in the Kalmyk language. Last, but not the least, in Leningrad, a great number of books dealing with stories of Ramayana are still available and preserved even today in Russian and Mongolian languages.

2) RAMAYANA IN CHINA:-

In China, a large collection of Jatak stories related to various events of Ramayana, which date back to 251 A.D, were compiled by Kang Seng Hua. Another book from 742 AD, which relates the story of plight of Dasratha after Rama, was ordered to go for Vanvasa is still present in China. Similarly, in 1600 AD, His-Yii-Chii wrote a novel called Kapi (monkey) which elaborated on the stories of Ramayana, predominantly that of Hanuman.

3) RAMAYANA IN SRILANKA:-

Naresh Kumar Dhatusena also known as Kumardasa, who ruled Sri Lanka in 617 AD, wrote a book called, “Janakiharan”. This is the oldest Sanskrit literature available in Sri Lanka. In Modern Times, C. Don Bostean and John D`Silva have written stories based on Ramayana. Till now, majority of the population adore and highly respect the duo of Rama and Sita.

4) RAMAYANA IN COMBODIA (KAMPUCHIA):

Today, there are many rock inscriptions belonging to 700 AD, which are located in Khmer region of Cambodia. These rock inscriptions are based on the events of Ramayana. Many temples were constructed during the reign of Khmer dynasty, and currently, their walls depict many scenes and events of Ramayana. The temples of Ankor are very famous for the stories of Ramayana and Mahabharata. These temples belong to the earliest parts of the time period dating back from 400 AD to 700 AD. One astonishing fact in these engraved pictures is that Hanuman and the rest of the other Vanars are not shown with their tails as it is against the popular belief of the masses. (Whether Hanuman was a monkey or not, this issue will be examined later on)

5) RAMAYANA IN INDONESIA:

According to De Casperis, there was a temple named “Chandi Loro Jongrong”, which had some scenes of Ramayana engraved on its walls. This temple was from the 9th century AD. In Indonesia, another version of a story from Ramayana named Kakavin is very popular. This story is a bit different from that of Prambanan. Besides this, there were other various versions of Ramayana related stories, which were present in those early centuries after Christ, and also proves itself that Ramayana was very popular among Indonesian people before advent of Islam. It is also an astonishing fact that the first international convention on Ramayana was organized in Indonesia, a few years back.

6) RAMAYANA IN LAOS:

When local people pronounce Loas in their language, it phonetically sounds like the name of one of the sons of Rama. Besides, the temple of Vat- She-Fum and Vat-Pa-Kev also depict many scenes of Ramayana on their walls. The temples of Vat-Pra-Kev and Vat-Sisket carry books that contain the epic of Ramayana. Lafont, a French traveler translated the story of, “Pa laka-Pa lama” in his book called, “P`ommachak”, in French. This book also deals with the story of Ramayana, which is still popular among the masses of Laos.

7) RAMAYANA IN THAILAND:-

The stories of Ramayana are still very popular among the masses. In the early centuries after Christ, many kings who ruled this country had Rama as the prefix or suffix in their name. Just like in India how we organize the play of Ramayana, till today, many dramatic versions of Ramayana are organised in Thailand as well. Similarly, many dramatic versions of Ramayana are still being organized in various South East Asian countries like Indonesia, Malaysia, and Cambodia.

8) RAMAYANA IN MALAYSIA:-

In Malaysia till today plays are oraganised based on the stories of ‘HIKAYAT SERI RAMA’ ,written in 14 century AD,. Dalang society organize nearly 200-300 plays relating to Ramayana. Before commencement of the play people conduct various prayers and abulations revering RAMA and SITA.

9) RAMAYANA IN BURMA:-

King Kayanjhitha who reigned during 1084 –1112 AD; regarded himself as desecendant of clan of Rama. Various books relating to the stories of Ramayana as earlier as 15 century AD are still found in Burma. Books like ‘Kavyadarsh’ , ‘Subhasit Ratanidhi’ are based on the stories of Ramayana. Zhang-Zhungpa, commentary of Ramayana was written by Taranath, which is not available in modern times. In Burma also various form of plays are conducted based on the stories of Ramayana.

10) RAMAYANA IN NEPAL:-

Oldest version of Ramayana, belonging ot 1075 AD is still found in Nepal.

11) RAMAYANA IN PHILIPINES:-

Effect of stories of Ramayana can easily felt in the customs, traditions and legends of majority of masses. Prof Juon R Francisco found that in Marineo Muslims, legend based on Ramayana is popular, in which Rama has been depicted as Incarnation of God. Similarly among Magindanao or Sulu folk Muslims also various legends based on the stories of Ramayana are popular.

12) RAMAYANA IN IRAN:

In Hyderabad city, capital of Andhra Pradesh, there is museum name Salarjung. There one portrait which is depicting a burly monkey having a very big stone in its hand. This portrait reminds one of Hanuman holding Dronagiri. Similarly Marco Polo in his book (translated by Sir Henry Yule in English) wrote at page no 302, vol II about a peculiar belief among Muslims, spread from Afganistan to Morocco and Algeria. These Muslims believed that members of imperial house of Trebizond were endowed with short tails while mediavel continentals had like stories about Englishmen as- Mathew Paris relates…. ; .

We are of the belief that if one seriously start investigating various legends prevalent, before advent of Islam and Christianity, in Arabic countries and European countries than existence of Ramayana and Mahabharta can be proved. Due to barbaric and dogmatic acts of these peoples wide range of literature and buildings of historical importance has been wiped out.

13) RAMAYANA IN EUROPE:

In Italy, when excavation were carried out in the remains of Astrocon civilization, then various houses were found having peculiar type of paintings on their wall. These paintaings, on closure investigation, seems to be based on the stories of Ramayana. Some of the paintings shows peculiar persons having tails along with two men bearing bows and arrow on their shoulders, while a lady is standing besides them. These paintings are of 7 century BC. It should be remembered that once Astrocon civilization was spread over 75 pct of Italy.

Sir Henry Yule in his translation of works of Marcopolo has refered to the belief prevalent among Medival Europeans that there Ancestors were having small tails. The same fact has been referred by Maharishi Dayanand in his magnum opus ‘Satyarth Prakash’. There Swamiji state that people of Europe were called as Vanaras(monkeys) ,due to their appreance in our epic like Mahabharta, Valmiki Ramayana etc. If we a analyse this statement in present context, then how we are going to define various statements like kangaroos(Australian team) meet men in blue(Indian team) at Calcutta.

Similar sort of epithets were used during World war to describe armies of different countries or else we see that we have helicopters named cheetah etc. As these words(epithets) are just a way to describe different set of people, arms etc, similarly world like Rakshas, Vanaras etc were used in our legends. These facts clearly indicates that legends of Ramayana are not work of fiction and were very popular around the world .

14) RAMAYANA IN AFRICA(CONTINENT):

People of Ethiopia call themselves as descendents of Cushites. This word Cush is basically phonectic misnomer of Kush, the son of Rama. This fact is verly established by Satpath Brahamans, commentary on Vedas. These Brahamans while explaining various mantras of Vedas uses many histrorical events to elucidate the topic.

Astonishingly in Satpath Brahaman we find reference regarding the rule of King Bharata (predecessor of Kaurav and Pandavs) in Rhodesia .

Besides many inconsistent legends inspired by epic of Ramayana are prevalent in African Communities and they basically refers to various activities of vanars.

Egypt basically derives its name from Ajpati which is one of the name of forefather of Rama. If analyse various legends prevalent in Egypt there we will found references of Dasratha(father of Rama). These facts can be very well established from various historical refernces of Brahamans.(for the proof of it see our article Blunders of Indian/World history)

15) RAMAYANA IN NORTH AMERICAN AND SOUTH AMERICAN CONTINENTS:

Before Columbus discovered North American continent European people were not knowing about it. However A DE QNATREFAGES in his book, THE HUMAN SPECIES, categorically says that Chinese people were aware about the American continent and the use to have trade relations with them America was referred as Fad-Sang. Similarly in Japanese people it was known as Fad-See. Similarly, if we refer to various historical reference in Mahabharata, Valmiki Ramayana etc we will find that American continent has been reffered as Patal Desh(Patal means below foot). If we geographically see then we will find that American continent is just below the Indian Subcontinent. We will throw greater light on this issue in our topic, BLUNDERS OF INDIAN HISTORY/WORLD HISTORY.

But for your reference we are providing you some prevalent legends.

a) Beautiful girl in Mexican tribal area till today are called as Ulopy. If we see in Mahabharata we find reference of Arjuna marrying girl named Ulopy who was daughter of King of Patal Desh.

b) W H Prescott in his book , ‘ History of conquest of Mexico’, provides various reference which prove that earlier civilization of American subcontinent have major similarities with that of Indian(Aryan) civilization.

However here we are providing you one reference which clearly state that Ramayana is not mythological epic but it bears historical testimony. According to writer of the book there is popular legend in Aztec community which state that a beautiful person named Quevtsal Katal came there from east and taught them various aspects of advanced civilization as a result his period was treated as golden era. He then went back to his original homeland because of persecution by some divine creature. This legends surprisingly does not throw light on the reasons why he returned.

Another interesting fact that has been stated by Prescott is that this legend is available in documented form. Now, none except Indian tradition can claim that they bear root to this legend. The same story has been narrated in Valmiki Ramayana, in uttarkand where it is mentioned that Salkantak Rakshas who dwelled in Lanka were persecuted by Vishnu. Due to this persecution they left Lanka and went to Patal Desh. The leader of this group was Sumali. According to Ramayana they lived in Patal Desh for long time. When they found condition congenial they returned to their homeland.

It is for readers to decide when such conclusive proof are there to establish that epic of Ramayana is not mythological legend but it is historical evidence which bears testimony to various legends prevalent around the world. Till today play named Ramasitotav is played in various communities of Mexico. To our amazement Rama has been mentioned in Bible, new testament, Mathew ch 2/18, where it is mentioned “ his voices was heard in RAMA”. Rama is proper noun there, now it is for biblical society to define who was Rama and why he has been mentioned in Bible.

Even the name of Dasratha and Ayodhya are there in Bible. We will be referring to these facts in Blunders of Indian/world History.

Now we would pose some tickling questions to the sickular historians:

1) Why month of fasting among muslims is called Ramadhan ?

2) Why place in Gazastrip is called Ramallaha ?

3) Why place in London is named as Ramsgate ?

4) Why capital of Italy is known as Rome(misnomer of Rama)

We can provide various examples where word Rama has been used as suffix or prefix with the names of various historical places/persons or misnomer of Rama has been used as name for historical places/persons. None of the historical evidence provides conclusive answer to these facts unless we take Indian historical evidences into account.

It is widely accepted that the King Alexander invaded India. It really sounds ironical that we are accepting this theory without any historical evidence, on the other hand we go on to deny existence of Rama despite various historical evidences are there to prove that he was not mythical but a historical Mahanayak.

These historians in order to refute Rama`s existence are ridiculously harping the same old tone of theory of evolution which does not have any scientific proof. (Why and how theory of evolution gained importance will be dealt in our article – How the universe is created. The only thing of significance regarding theory of evolution, we want to state here is that it was a tool which was invented to challenge the draconian supremacy of church. The church use to claim that this world was created by God out of nothing and the age of this Univerese is not more than 10000 years. By the help of evolutionary theory scientific world challenged the supremacy of churh and overcame the clergy.)

This is for readers to decide by themselves how they are going to treat Rama. We think that we have provided lot of food for thought. Those who are illogically biased may still refute the existence of Rama while those who are logical and believe that mythological character can never gain such world wide respect/reverence will start looking upon Rama from wider historical evidences.

Here we want to clarify following points:

1) Rama was a Mahanayak, a legendary person who lived a pristine life and is an example to be emulated till today.

2) Its immaterial whether Ramasetu, on which lot of controversy is being created, was built by Rama so far proving authenticity of Rama is concerned. Regardless of whether they prove Ramsetu to be manmade or natural creation, existence of Ram cannot be denied.

3) Valmiki Ramayana is not fiction but an epic based on historical evidence.

For those who are questioning existence of Rama, let them first justify whether their forefathers ever existed, by using the same yardstick that they are using to question the existence of Rama. At least there are more evidences of Rama being a historical hero than existence of forefathers of these historians.

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Agniveer symbolizes the efforts of a soul marching towards the ultimate goal through destruction of ego and falsehood. With focus only on right knowledge, right actions and right devotion. In other words, Agniveer stands for compassion, character, tolerance and rational humanism. Agniveer believes in One World, One Humanity, One Family.

658 COMMENTS

  1. Dear All,

    I read through the entire comments section. It is utterly disgusting and irritating to see Mac keep repeating the same thing again and again. I am disappointed to see people even going into a debate with him. there is no point in arguments without conclusions. Mr. Mac for sure has made up his mind on which side he is in. Through his comments, I see that he watches, hears and listens to things he wanted to. That is, which supports his belief and he just cannot accept anything else.

    There is no point in a logical debate with these guys. I request that going forward, we should avoid or deliberately ignore the comments by these people after we realize they are not open to different ventures in realizing the ultimate truth.

    My request again to Admins / Agniveer to continue your quest with an eye to look into the Science of the Vedas. As I believe it is a scientific text rather than a religious text like the Abrahamic religions. This is the reason why the Vedas should be eternal, as the laws of nature are eternal.

    Thanks and best regards,
    Arun

  2. Dear sir,
    For your kind information The word mentioned in new testament, Mathew ch 2/18 Rama is not as you
    pronounce, but it is Ramah., eventhough it is a Noun. It is an Historicalcal city which now is a very
    small village. and aslo Rama was born some 100000 years before sounds absurd.

  3. Dear sir,
    For your kind information The word mentioned in new testament, Mathew ch 2/18 Rama is not as you
    pronounce, but it is Ramah., eventhough it is a Noun. It is an Historicalcal city which now is a very
    small village.

  4. Till date why none of the religious books talk about dinosaurs?
    There is astronomical evidence which suggests that dinosaurs existed.
    Why every religion fails to have even simple mention of dinosaurs?

    • Dunno about other religions, but Vedas are for humans. Dinosaurs did not exist when humans came. So discussion on dinosaurs is not relevant. Vedic texts suggest that before humans came, all other animals had come. So Vedas start from there.

      • Agniveer Mahoday

        ” Dinosaurs did not exist when humans came.”

        Did you mean to say “Dinosaurs had ceased to exist when humans came.” ?
        After all, Vedic texts suggest that before humans came, all other animals had come, incl. the dinosaurs.

      • We meant that details on something that is not to be seen by humans, is not relevant because Vedas are to guide humans towards Mukti. Nonetheless, we have not researched Vedas from perspective of pre-human history of planet and hence cannot categorically state what is Vedic view on dinosaurs. But even if there is no reference, that is reasonable to us.

      • so you say you are not sure as vedas doesnt say so then why do you think dinosaurs become extinct and what are your views on big bang and if you say you dont know can i accept evolution as i come orginally from agnostic background but arya samaj attracts me to it

      • Jay, We don’t find evolution to be against Vedas. Whether it actually happened or something else happened, is a different question that experts can explore. So far there has been a direction/ purpose, it is in sync with Vedas. The traditional model is that first humans were born asexually as youth and then sexual reproduction started henceforth. Nothing wrong with this model.

        But if any alternate model be provided that more and more intelligent species evolved from primates, this may also be an acceptable model. However one thing is sure that at some point in time, some of these intelligent species got evolved beyond a threshold. They got inspiration of Vedas and initiated civilization. In our definition, these were first humans. How they came – asexually or through evolution is immaterial.

        However our views on this subject be considered speculative as current study plus research is not sufficient enough to reach any conclusive stand on this issue.

      • Jay and Agniveer,

        I do agree with Agniveer’s response on this issue. Vedas do contradict science on this issue. I am not a Vedic scholar but from what I heard the Vedas do say we evolved. Now how that evolution went about, it is up to debate.

        And I know for sure that the Vedas do believe in the Big Bang Theory. Many scientists actually took that idea from the Vedas and explored it further. Even in mainstream Hinduism it talks about the way Siva started the universe with a massive explosion. That is why Siva has a ball of fire in one hand.

        Dhanyavad,
        Krishnarao

      • Typo:
        I accidentally wrote “Vedas do contradict science on this issue”

        Correction:
        The Vedas do NOT contradict science on this issue.

      • @ Jay Arya
        I don’t know what vedas say about big bang but below is the link where Vivekananda presents advaita point of view on it before Einstein and other scientists proposed their theories.These are the same views of Adi Shankaracharya and Gautama Buddha.
        http://www.vivekananda.net/BooksBySwami/JnanaYoga/6_AbsoluteManifestatin.html
        This theory is as relevant today as Einsteins theory.

        Just want to add something.I posted this link on Dawkins website within 48 hrs it was removed.And they talk about free speech.

      • yes some athiests and agnostic are radical me and swami vivekanand were similar he also didnt believe in a god until he came in contact with rama krishnna just like i came in contact with arya samaj and i respect swami vivekanand and shankaracharya for their spread of hinduism but i dont follow the same philisophy i follow the one by swami dayanand saraswati and in some sense by madhvacharya so thank you for you message but i would like answer by agniveer

  5. Ok, If jesus Loves us and cares for us , Why is there poverty , Starvation, disease , war …………??
    If at all he cared for everyone and loved us , Everyone should have the same opportunities , but that is not the current case. For Eg. A boy born in U.S has more chance of being a graduate than a boy born in a refugee camp in remote part of Africa.
    When one guy is rich and another poor, Jesus is being Biased.
    When I pray to Ram and does acknowledge Jesus , As per the Bible ,I am going to Hell……He is Cruel.
    If Jesus is the true Lord , Why is this world dirty? Why should he wait for the Judgment day when he is able to see people suffering. He is a Sadist??

    But In sanatana Dharma, Karma is the answer for all the above questions . Christianity and Islam have ideologies that is insulting to the Almighty .

    P.S I see many stickers saying “Jesus saves You” , When he was not even able to save himself from Crucification , How do you expect him to save us??
    With all due regards , I consider Jesus as a preacher of Buddhist Philosophy and I consider him as a teacher.

    Awaiting your reply,

  6. Conditions:
    1. One who kills innocents (in-fact entire civilizations) flood and all,
    2. One who gets angry, obsessed, jealous
    3. Can not do anything right the first time and have to send multiple versions of book(s) and commandments, each contradicting each other. old commandment, new commandment and we can add the noble Quran also. I have left Bible out of it as it is not Holy God words but just collections from many man made books.

    I can add many more to the list. Now anyone who displays the above characteristic cannot be God, human certainly but not God.

    Now for me any one who displays above characteristic can not be God, human certainly but never Holy God.

  7. @Mac
    //…..East Indians called him Jyapeti or Pra-Japati, Romans used Ju-Pater or Jupiter,….//
    prajapati >>pra+ja+pati here pati mean lord/master and ja means “to produce” same as in the root word jana or gene
    where as in jupiter , piter means father and ju means god or big great which is same as zeus of greek pantheon, in fact jupiter was named after zeus

    if u dont know go and ask some linguist

    • What I wrote is the research and study of world linguists. This site is a religious site, you need to check on indiaculture.net, wherein more fair and knowledgeable comments are shared.

      • what u hav posted is definitely a mistake , u r just playing with words similar in phonetics not etymological. u shud consult a linguist.

      • I have covered almost all the people living on the face of this earth. Genesis 10 is the Table of Nations and it covers all, it is the geneology of mankind traced back to Noah. Ctrl F type “Table of Nations”, get the September 6, 2012 comment, it is lengthy, but it almost covers all.

      • common really u believe that noah/flood trash? and everything coming one race is fallacy , i would rather believe in scientific explanation on evolution and not some shit like things evolving from adam , eve. there r many researches done in the field of genetics which explains migrations/mixtures way b4 the creation of earth with respect to biblical times.

      • Noah’s flood is a history. It is visible with naked eye from an airplane or a helicopter, if you fly over Grand Canyon, Alps, Andies, etc, it has dug thru great trenches and valleys, the waters have carved thru. What my comment on Table of Nations gives is more than Science, DNA, archeology, linguistics, history, etc, etc. So instead of hanging on the vedic tail like a bug, go on and read yourself.

      • ever watched those science documentaries rather than just reading ur scriptures?? the timelines of those u mentioned are different from what is in ur scripture, its not in years , its many many thousands and sometime millions(maybe billions) of years. america was supposed to be under water , it was not even a continent a lot of million years back. proof for it can be found in many strata of fossils (of aquatic beings) deposited in grand canyons and its surroundings. later came dinosaurs which are an evolved forms of aquatice beings. go watch some science documentaries thesis and journals b4 u spout nonsense here

      • Bro., Although you have a filthy mouth. I mul tell you on this evolution, if you go and read the main article we are commenting on, Agniveer defies evolution. For my comment you have to go by Ctrl F “Mac”, I have also commented some on evolution and I don’t want to repeat or fill this blog. I am here to share not to defy my desi brothers. There are likes and dislikes in every person, but the truth remains, we have to discourse it and find it and share it. Thats why I am here.

      • yeah yeah like whatever ur filthy mouth blabbers is right. i will only take what science says abt evolution as right not some deser bloc scriptures.
        u r jsut playing with words here , looking at them phonetically not etymologically , learn some linguistics b4 u comment ur trash here.
        and we take the whole creation and creator as god , so agniveer deifying evolution is also right, which ur mud/sand brain cannot comprehend.
        by the way u havent answered my first question to u.

  8. except for astronomical recordings which gives age when rama existed, rest is not so reliable to say rama really existed , the stories of rama being told in various places outside india all lie in ADs

  9. @Mac
    u r just supporting my above statements abt ur (demi-)god with ur qoutes
    and give correct replies to my comment above. think and give reply, i will not post it again.
    also Tell me why is god a “HE” or Father???
    also look into nasadiya sukta .

  10. God may love me as much as he wants to, but I still have to shoulder the responsibility of my actions and deal with the repercussions.

  11. Take my advise brother abhi; Never say “sick god”. Why you want to die before your appointed time. 1 Timothy : God is not mocked, it is what you say is going to come back to you. He sits above the upper waters in unapprochable lights (distance) from us. Where the rays of the sun has never reached since creation.

    Lets do some reality check about God’s partiality and impartiality. 1st Commandment…..

    Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

    Isaiah 42:8 “I am the LORD; that is My Name! I will not give My glory to another or My praise to idols.

    THIS is why Israel has no peace;

    Deuteronomy 32:15-21 But Jeshurun (Israel) waxed fat, and kicked: Thou art waxed fat, thou art grown thick, thou art become sleek; Then he forsook God who made him, And lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols. They sacrificed to demons, which are not God–gods they had not known, gods that recently appeared, gods your fathers did not fear. You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth. The LORD saw this and rejected them because he was angered by his sons and daughters. “I will hide my face from them,” he said, “and see what their end will be; for they are a perverse generation, children who are unfaithful. They made me jealous by what is no god and angered me with their worthless idols. I will make them envious by those who are not a people; I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding.

    Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

    On the judgement day, your own conscience will judge you.

    • i thought ur friend said the sick god wud love humans no matter what deeds , what is that? what u guys say and what ur scriptures say totally contradicts. stick to one trash ideology and debate

      • The glory of praise and worship belongs to Him, Father God Almighty, we so loving call Him, Abba means Father.

        I mul tell you, JUST ONCE try to call your neighbour DADDY in front of your own earthly DADDY, rest you will understand.

        The God of Abraham is the only Living God, the Creator and the Destroyer, you cant add anything to His creation neither take away anything. He is above the Creation, not just this universe, get it.

        Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD; that is My Name! I will not give My glory to another or My praise to idols.

        Isaiah 43:10 “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me no god was formed, nor will there be one after Me.

      • @Mac we believe god is everywhere so whether u call a rock or earth or any human or animal as god or not doesnt matter. but we dont say daddy is everywhere and call others as dad. u hav given a stupidest anology. anyway give proper reply to question above

    • moreover you just proved that the god of abrahamic faith is sick and fake with the verses u hav qouted.
      he gets angered and jealous , what has he got to lose?? any property of his? or has his ego got hurt by a speck on a speck kind of existance? why does this ssick god needs praises , is he narcissist or a praise monger? cant he live without these?
      also why does he need his dumb followers to convert all others ?? is he feeling lonely? does he want to accompanied?? what does he gain by doing so? lets say everything in this universe is his own , then what is the point in making again something which belongs to him his own.?? is any other god competing with him??? , r they in a race to make highest number of followers??

      the god in abrahamic faith is not a universal god. and he just an alter ego of whoever described (in ur scriptures) as he is.

      • You have a double doze of moronic blood in you. I have seen stupid, dumb and filthy arguements on this blog. Butch you are Uno Numero, Laverga Putto! You are that village idiot who goes out and calls strangers, your Dad. Try calling it in front of your earthly Dad, try one time. I guess your real Dad will spank the puppy out of you.

        Ask your Dad and Mom, why the hell they brought you into this world? And, try calling your earthly Dad, Chupacabra. Before judging God, what a rabied chihuahua you are, littering with filth and nonsense!

      • mr dumbass mac i hav already answered ur question , if u dont hav an answer to my question just shut ur ass and dont fart like this

  12. ” why it is ill-advised to defend Christianity in forums such as these”
    “while I continue more important issues..”
    Keeping cling on the same wrong tree !
    🙂 …. :)……

  13. God Bless U Brother! You are politically correct and politics is my subject. We both use the same kinda sword of truth, Word of God, just in different manner. The Sword of Truth which separates the bone from the bone marrow. It is the Word of God, depends on how the Holy Spirit guides you. It is your domain. In my fields, I dont keep scare-crows, but you surely are doing good God’s work.

      • Yes, he is doing God’s work. Faith has been given to us in different proportions. It is his domain he does and I would not mess up with his domain, it is his God given domain. And, he is doing good.

        I am a soldier of Salvation. We use the Sword of Truth, the Word of God, which divides the bone from the bone marrow. It is a double edged Sword of Truth, the Word of God, which melts the bones.

        Bereshith means in the beginning (Bara plus shith means created in six);

        John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

  14. its not bad loving you or not your deeds and morality is what makes your character if jesus died for sins why do you make christians pray to jesus again to forgive your sins?

  15. In part II, the real Vicjags comes to the fore who all the while was trying to project himself as a rationalist. He realizes the vanity of apologetics knowing full well that it will fall flat on its face and prefers to go the evangelism route instead trying to brainwash mediocre brains into the faith. He also talks of establishing a direct relationship with God through evangelism (zealous preaching and dissemination of the gospel, as through missionary work).

    He is attacking his own ill-contrived assumption that the Hindus do not know the purpose of their lives. The superficiality of his knowledge of Hindu philosophy is thus brought forth as he tries to assert that in the end game the Hindus are the greatest losers. The theory of karma is inextricably linked to the theory of the eternality of soul, the theory of transmigration of soul and the concept of moksha (liberation from all karmic influences). He seriously needs some education on philosophies of Hinduism.

  16. The true “rationalist” in Vicjags finally gets exposed. It is very strange that pseudo-rationalist Vicjags accuses others of running a farcical show when he himself ducks for cover when pointedly asked to denounce the pseudoscientific ideas propagated by a certain religious group guided by vested interests especially in “harvesting of souls.” This pseudo-rationalist then goes on a character-assassination overkill.

    This pseudo-rationalist the other day was trying to establish energy healing practiced by the Red Indians as a pseudoscience but is unabashedly preaching faith healing. I just wanted to bring to his attention that faith healing and placebo effect work on almost similar lines.

    So, what did he expect? That we should be working to establish a Christian country where a woman has to die for being denied a medical termination of pregnancy! And, to top it all, he also wants us to ignore the excesses committed by the Christian extremists in our very own country.

    • Must say, he is an interesting character with an unusual strategy. I would like to sum up Vicjags’ strategy in 1 sentence: changing gears at will (from being a rationalist to an evangelist and then doing a volte-face when faced with bitter truths), being evasive, tacit approval of a certain brand of pseudoscience.

  17. i love how you cant reply back so start talking to your fellow christian i know you hate agniveer it doesnt matter

    • @Amul Arya: so true. Look what kind of convoluted way of thing this individual has and what kind of society would such “Christian” way of thought build.
      In this short chapter Paul lucidly explains the human predicament . “Oh what a wretched man I am, for what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do” that was also my cry.. And what rescued me was knowledge…The Knowledge that I am not pleasing God by my actions; THAT GOD LOVES ME REGARDLESS OF MY NEEDS. It is the people who love Mother Teresa and hates Osama bin Laden, God’s love is impartial and he equally loves both of them. All my karma and so called good and bad deeds are worthless in the eyes of God and I don’t reach him by my own righteousness, but by his righteousness.
      So essentially there is no difference in the between laden and teresa on the spiritual markings for god, they both stand same changes to receive gods’s grace, but god has to make a choice and out of his whimsical behaviour he can only choose either of them ,(as we have to leave the karma out as our great christian vicjags thought holds).Such a GOD is worth to be praised, obvious no matter what kind of actions one does in life kill men, rape women, do all that is inhuman this GOD will still shower his grace on you the only thing you have say is Halleluiah and accept JESUS as the ONLY way of Salvation.
      Such Pity.

      • yes and go read what i replied to mac i respect jesus but dont see him as god i respect all faiths but im against christians and muslims because they radical and spread lies

      • @Mac : you yourself say ..as Faith without deeds is dead. ya i am totally agree with you.
        in other words Faith without karma is dead. so we agree.No problems.

      • @Mac : stupidity knows no bounds here..
        There is no reason to compare karma with God’s grace , first leads to latter.
        Then you ask me have i sinned , if there is no value of karma, why should sin even come into picture for salvation.

      • Karma is measured by corruption in India and we know that corruption is there from Peon to President. Karma has value, but it has to come thru Faith (Yeshua Ha Mashaiach). And, once Faith is there, Karma will automatically follow; as Faith without deeds is dead.

        Luke 6:38 “Give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”

        Until Jesus came, people of Abrahamic faith were under the law. The wages of sin is death, thats the law. If a kid curses its father or mother, it should be stoned to death. Now, Israel observed the law as a matter of deeds. They keep sinning and offered sacrifices as per the law or enforced the law with death sentence. In fact, the law was given to avoid sinning or breaking it, instead they observed it as a matter deeds making it weak.

        Paul: The law was given so that sin may abound and wherever the sin abounded, the grace of God abounded all the more.

        We are saved by the grace of God. Grace is free and she is the Sister of Faith. But, until Faith is not there, she is not going to follow Him.

        Leviticus 19:9-10 “When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap your field right up to its edge, neither shall you gather the gleanings after your harvest. And you shall not strip your vineyard bare, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard. You shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner: I am the Lord your God. ”

        Matthew 25:31-46 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, …

        1 John 3:17 But if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?

        Proverbs 19:17 Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed.

        Hebrews 13:16 Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

        2 Corinthians 9:7 Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

      • SDC 03:12 I inherit the capacity to sin and to do good at the same time. So, there is absolutely no need to get worked up. Just attune yourself to doing all that is good and virtuous and the rest shall work itself out. Read the Cherokee Legend of Two Wolves for more inspiration.

      • @Mac : you yourself say ..as Faith without deeds is dead. ya i am totally agree with you.
        in other words Faith without karma is dead. so we agree.No problems.

  18. @Mac says: (November 30, 2012 at 8:40 am)
    I agree with you that idol worship is not the best form of connecting to god. but then every one does that, some do it in church or carry a cross (which is symbol of evil, as it was used to crucify peoples long before and after Jesus was crucified), some to kaba, some to idol. for me they are all same.

    Now can you explain what is the need of church or bible. As both were not made by Jesus. In-fact there are many versions of Bible. So which one is true one and which one to follow. For me Jesus was a good person and wanted to do good, but he was no god, he himself said that.

    Now let me tell you about my belief. I believe that God is everywhere, he does not need a medium, other than myself to tell me what is good or what is bad. my conscious tells me that. I meditate to that god and thanks him for everything I have. I do not have to pay to anyone or any organization, so that god will listen to me.

    • @Mayank, Your comment is very genuine, I have to say it. Firstly, I am a protestant, Caths keep some statues of Jesus in their church property, but they actually do not bow down to it and worship it. A church building is a place of worship where people gather to worship God. But, in fact, when you say Church, it is the Body of Jesus, we, whom God called us to Himself and we, whom Jesus gathered us ARE the Church and Body of Christ. Another thing, I want to make it clear is that Roman Catholic Catechism and Christianity are two different things.

      Bible or Biblia means the complete book, it has a beginning and an end and the rest. Versions are for lucidity for various peoples to understand the scriptures in their lingua franca, it is the same thing, exampli gratia; Patthar, Patros or Peter means rock or stone.

      In fact, God is not everywhere, but there is nothing in this creation which is hidden from His eyes, not even the barest of the deepest oceans are hidden from His eyes. All creation lay bare before His eyes. He sits above the upper waters in unapproachable lights (distance) from us, not even the rays of the sun has ever reached Him since creation.

      When Jesus said: It is finished. And let away His spirit. There was a great earthquake, the sun went into hiding and there was thunder and lightining, the curtain of the temple was torn from top to bottom and the Shekinah (glory) of God left the temple. NOW, if you want to come to God, Jesus is the only Way. We cannot reach God except thru Jesus. Its written: If the Son forgives, the Father will also. Its also written: God was reconcilling the world to Himself looking thru the blood of Jesus Christ and He didn’t found no sin which can’t be cleansed by the blood of Jesus, His only begotten Son.

      Revelations: The One who rides the white horse, His Name is Faith(ful). He is the substance of this Creation, Yeshua Ha Mashiach is His Name.

  19. @vicjacs,

    Bro., I mul have to say that these guys do not have decorums, eitiquets or no reverance while they discus. Even on their own religious blog they dont have any of that. I was wondering for a discourse, a respectable discourse on this blog, but I have not found one as yet, not one.

    Do you think, I am wrong? Well, I just came here to share, discuss and discourse, but I have not found one yet!

    May be I am wrong and they are right in their blindfaith.

    Blessed be the Name of the Adonai Elohim, Tz Va Ot. Holy Holy Holy is our Lord.

  20. @SDC, @Ankur and @Krishnarao,

    Have you visited http://www.indiaculture.net? If not, you need to. There is a wealth of info on that and you can share yours. Also, try to get the Elamite link. I guess, its pretty interesting, you may like it.

    Face the truth and the truth will set you free.

    Mac

    • There goes Mac retard ass spreading lies again. Seriously first these European invaders called it the aryan invasion. When there wasn’t enough evidence for it, they called it the aryan migration. And now when there isn’t even evidence for that they are changing there story again. Even the European scholars are realizing that the aryan invasion and aryan migration or whatever new thing they come up with is WRONG. And to the Vedic society many people have contributed. The key for the Vedic society is anyone can connect directly with God. It isn’t limited to some retard prophet/s or son of god or other garbage. The Vedic concept is not selfish at all. Any group that says their boy or historical figure is the only person who can experience that and we need to worship that retard or follow that retard is total non-sense. The Vedic way says anyone can achieve what the greatest Rishis in the Vedic society has done. We just need to use the techniques of Yoga and meditation as they have and we can connect directly with God. We can accomplish what Krishna has done or anyone else. We do not promote the stunting of growth like your dumbass religion.

      • Does it make you happy or make you feel a winner by spewing bad words at me? If it does, God bless you.

        You are going in circular arguments. I have already given answers in detail in my above comments for which you are still spewing bad words at me without considering the well researched and founded truth.

        As I have already said Ram, Bharatvarsh and Sita were our ancestors. However, Krishna is unfounded or not recorded in the history available to us. So Krishna is more mythical character. Another thing, our vedas and the rest of the scriptures records a mythical history of the 10 famous Persian wars and besides that we do not have anything. This is also recorded in the bible and world history.

        So, dig the truth and if you find it. Keep it to your heart. As I said earlier, TRUTH NEVER CHANGES, IT CHANGES THINGS AROUND IT. Face the truth and it will save you.

      • Have you by any chance heard of the lost of Dwarka that was found in the lake called Gomati Lake at Dakor which bears eloquent testimony to the fact that Mahabharata is not a figment of someone’s imagination or you have deliberately decided to give that a miss because somehow the “Christian historians” cannot relate it to anything in Middle Eastern history?

      • I have been there. There is still a temple submerged in water and the city is also there exactly as I have mentioned somewhere on this blog. If you see the old mesopotamian map and the old Elam map it extends to parts of Gujarat and North-west India. I do not deny that there may not be a King named Krishna. We also have excavation at Lothal, Gujarat and it is the same historical evidences I provided in some of my above comments. However, when there is a flood, it messes up the carbon dating technique calculation. Earth is 6000 years old and there was Noah’s flood as I have mentioned above and it messes up the calculation of carbon dating technique. Miners are still finding vertical trees buried 1000 feet underground. And, this particular Dwarka submersion case is not from Noah’s flood. It was after that as researchers are dating it to 5000 years, it can’t be. You should also know that your Mahabharat and other scriptures are talking about the same 10 famous wars of Persian/Mesopotamian kings. Instead of sticking to the vedic gun, learn to think outside the box.

      • Why do not you start thinking outside of Judeo-Christian box for starters, Mac? You do not deny that there may be a king named Krishna. Somehow this name does not find a mention in the Middle Eastern history, but the city he founded still exists underwater as is mentioned in the epic of Mahabharata, amazing, isn’t it? BTW, carbon dating techniques are not dependable and hence are to be discarded outright, isn’t it? Also, I think Vicjags may have a few words of wisdom in store for you regarding the Earth’s age.

      • See, one thing you have not noted in me on this blog as yet. I support and accept truth, half-truth, a smidge of a truth or myths, folklores, legends, legends of folklores, historical literature of the people of this world, which confirms the main stream faith of Judeo-Christianity. I never denied that Arya Ram-Anna, Sita, Warad-sin (Bharatvarsha), Tussurat (means owner of 10 charriots, Dasratha) were our ancestors; and Krishna who is unfounded in history. Krishna is a psuedo-apocryphal figure of your vedic myths. However, you need to understand none of them were of Bibilical proportion. They are not so important figures in biblical history, in fact, they are not at all there in the bible. Cyrus the great and Darius the great, the Persian Emperors were of biblical proportions, who ruled almost 70% of the world of their times and they were descendents of Arya Ram-Anna and Tussurat. Ram ruled in Persia and his kingdom reached far way upto north and upto NW India. History records that he ruled for 60 years and people were happy and his wars are also recorded. Hammurabi was not a monkey. Its your filthy evil brahmins who have twisted the history and the truth. They hired scribes and told them to write the way it pleased their whims and their ego and their fake glory. This is why I say CORRUPTION is a vedic invention.

      • FOOD FOR THOUGHT:

        Banawali in Hisar district of Haryana, by which the long-lost river Saraswati once flowed, is probably the Ram Janambhoomi (the birth place of Lord Ram) and not Ayodhya as is the common belief.

        This theory has been propounded by veteran archaeologist M V N Krishna Rao, a pioneer in deciphering the Indus Valley civilisation script, who unravelled the famous ‘Pashupati’ seal in 1969.

        In a paper titled ‘Rama and Ravana in Indus Seals’, contributed to the ‘J P Joshi felicitation volume’, Dr Rao has based his conclusion on his reading of the Banawali seals.

        Dr Joshi is the former director general of the Archaeological Survey of India and Dr Rao, a former deputy superintending archaeologist with the ASI.

        In his interpretation of the Ramayana, Dr Rao has identified ‘Rama Sana’ of Indus seals with ‘Ramachandra’ and thereby with king ‘Rim Sin of Larsa’ in Sumer, who ruled the vast lands of Sumer, Elam, the Indus Valley and the present-day Iran and Afghanistan from 1753 to 1693 BC.

        ‘Rim Sin’ assumed the title of ‘king of all lands’ by the consent of Goddess ‘Nin Makh’ at ‘Opis’, his second capital in Babylonia.

        Dr Rao says the archaeological evidence found in the Indus seals showed that ‘Rim Sin’ had fought for a long time an undecided war with King ‘Hammurabi’ identified as ‘Ravana’ of the Indus seals.

        The king of Babylonia was finally able to defeat ‘Hammurabi’ in the joint action with the chief of ‘Subartu’, ‘Hurrian’ and ‘Mitannian’. ‘Hammurabi’ was killed in the fight, as suggested by one of the Indus seals which has a legend reading ‘Ravani Dama’ or destroyer of Ravana.

        Dr Rao says the Indus seals found on the banks of river Saraswati suggest that Banawali must be Ram Janambhoomi and not Ayodhya.

        He points out that under project ‘Archaeology of the Ramanaya Sites’ headed by Prof B B Lal, excavations were conducted at Ayodhya, Bharadwaja Ashram and Sringaverpura from 1975 and 1980.

        At Ayodhya, the remains of a Hindu temple belonging to ‘Gahadwal king of Kannauj of 11th century AD’ were found underlying the Babri mosque.

        The antiquity of the other Ramayana sites excavated does not go earlier than 1000 BC.

        This late dating of the sites had ”dismayed the experts, and the view that Ayodhya was Ram Janambhoomi was abandoned,” Dr Rao claims.

        Dr Rao, who used the principle of acriphony to read the proto-Vedic language of Indus seals, says Vedic texts and Puranas almost correctly mentioned the names of different tribes and the kings of different dynasties in different regions.

        Having read all the 1650 seals that were legible out of the total 2325 Indus seals, he says the names of rulers of Babylonia, Assyria, Elam, Juda and Egypt. along with their country and city names were sanskritised in the Vedic and Puranic texts.

        Written at a very later date, the epics and Puranas got confused in the identification of geographical landmarks — names of rivers, mountains and cities. In such circumstances, he says, there is little wonder if they placed Ayodhya on the river Saryu near Faizabad instead of Saraswati in Haryana.

        Dr Rao says possibly it is also one of the reasons for their confusion as the Aryans adopted the same names to the rivers and cities while gradually migrating towards east from Iran, Afghanistan, Indus Valley to the Jamuna-Gangetic valley. Such frequent changes of place names was a common practice among the conquering and migrating races of the ancient world.

        The latest findings revealed that the Indus civilisation covered a vast region on the east-west axis from Alamgirpur to Sutkagendor and on the north-south axis from Ropar to Bhagatrav, about another 1600 km. No other ancient civilisation could boast of such a vast distribution of space as claimed by the Indus civilisation. Moreover, it had nearly 1300 km of seaboard along the west coast.

        Archaeologists at the beginning of the present century, Dr Rao says, had unearthed in Iraq some very important clay tablets, stone Stela with carved inscriptions and other art objects revealing significant information about ‘Rim-Sin” and ‘Hammurabi’, who became famous for establishing an empire and for furnishing a law code.

        ‘Rim-Sin’, whose name was read in the Indus seals as ‘Rama Sana’, was the son of ‘Kudur Mabug (or Mabhana of Indus seal)’ and reigned in Larsa, the modern Sankera in Iraq.

        ‘Rim’ in Sumerian language means ‘ruler’ and ‘Raman’ is the name of ‘thunder god of the Amorites’. ‘Sin’ means ‘moon god’ in Akkadian language and ‘Sana’ means ‘god of thunder storm’ in the Indus language, Dr Rao explains.

        Before his accession to the throne of Larsa in Sumer, Rim’s brother ‘Warad-Sin’ ruled for 12 years. His father ‘Kudur Mabug’ reigned in Jamutbal, a kingdom on the coast of the Persian Gulf towards east of river Tigris adjoining Elam. ”This name is identical with Jabuna or Sapuna or Jambudvipa of Indus Valley.” Rim-Sin appears to be an Aryan chief ruling over Elamites, Sumerians and Aryans of Indus civilisation, Dr Rao says.

      • @Mac : this is not food for thought and i think you have specific liking for the way vignesh used to author his comments.
        First of all There have been people with the name “Ram” all over the world and it does in no way conclude that others are the same as Maryada purushottam Shir Ram.

        Earliest date that Shri Ram could have been born is 7323 B.C, and the article that you quoted hand random assumptions based on some seals and it itself say that this “Ram sin” ruled from 1753 to 1693 BC.

        for further reading
        http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/ramayan/rama_vartak.html

      • These are the researches of renowned Indian archeological experts and they also worship Ram. Ram is a very common name in Mesopotamia and amongst the descendent languages of Hebrew and Aramiac, the mother languages. Most idolatry was concentrated in Mesopotamia especially in Egypt, Babylonia and Elam or Indus valley. Tamil most nearly matches the Summerian language, but not sanskrit.

        Sita was not the wife of Ram. She was the Chief Priestess in the temple at Ur, Iraq of today. Arya Ram-sin and Warad-sin (Bharatvarsha) were Elamite kings, who ruled 60 and 12 years respectively. Kudur-Mubak (Tussarat means owner of 10 charriots) was their father. Hammurabi the arch enemy of Arya Ram-sin didn’t had 10 heads, he is the Ravana of Mahabharata. It is the same mythical history written in Dasaratha Jhataka and Mahabharata. Dr.Rao findings agrees with the Persian/Mesopotamian and biblical history. Sanskrit is way down line in the Indo-Iranian language family group.

        Let me elaborate on Sita. The RigVeda refers to an Asura (powerful king) named Rama but makes no mention of Kosala. In fact the name Kosala was probably Khas-la and may correspond to Mar-Khase (Bar-Kahse) of the Sumerian records. The RigVeda also refers to Sita (IV,57.6) with singular respect; `Auspicious Sita, come thou near, we venerate and worship thee’. Warad-Sin’s sister was consecrated as the high-priestess of the moon-god at Ur under the Sumerian name Enanedu. The first known chief priestess of Ur was Hedu-anna, sister of Rimush. There survives a number of hymns composed by her in fluent Sumerian which makes her the first literary figure of history. Her enormous prestige in Mesopotamia can be gauged from the fact that 1500 years later King Nabonindus recorded how he had searched for and recovered her memorial. This lamentation speaks of her exile (from Ur) and exile is an important theme of Valmiki though not of the Jataka, which suggests accretion. Did the first poetess of history inspire the first poet of India?

        Ilu-Ma-Ilu, the Hanuman of the Epic, was a Marut or Amorite

        As the cuneiform symbol for ‘ilu’ can also be read as ‘an’, the name Ilu-ma-ilu who was an adversary of the Hammurabi dynasty can also be read as Hanuman. Jona Oates also writes the name as Iliman which supports this. Hanuman leader of the Vanaras, is called Maruti which may link him to the Martus or Maruts of the Sumerian texts. The Martus were the Amorites of modern writers. The best known Amorite was Hammurabi who must have been a distant kin of Iliman or Hanuman. The original character of the Maruts, the chief among the Vedic Indra’s personal attendants is vague and shadowy in early Vedic literature. The Maruts were associated with the vedic god Rudra and were said to be the messengers of death, their name being derived from the root √mar, to die. The Maruts were said to be storm-gods (Pavan Putra Hanuman).

        Ravana Was The Great Law-Maker Hammuravi, son of Mubalit. (He didn’t had 10 heads, but he had the wisdom of 10 men’s heads).

        If Ram-Sin is identified as Rama his greatest Amorite enemy Hammurabi must be Ravana or Ravi-anna. This presents some difficulties although Valmiki’s version of the the abduction of Sita probably has more to do with poetic imagination than history. However, that she was the chief priestess of the moon-temple at Ur may have been at the root of some events of the politically turbulent era. There is a possibility that at some stage Ur was captured by Hammurabi. The chief-priestess of Ur was inviolable under Sumerian law and the fact that Ravana did not dishonour Sita may show his regard for law. The Battle between Khammu-ravi and Ram-Sin who led a group of Ten-Kings was one of the most famous events of Sumerian history. Whether the name Sin-Mubalit of Hammu-rabi’s father links him with Mahabali, a name of Bali, is uncertain but this may even be true. The Ramayana describes Ravana’s clashes with Bali which are clearly poetic in nature. Even here the fact that Bali carries Ravana in his lap may reveal his true relationship. Much has been written about Khammuravi that is undoubtedly true but in a sense Ram-Sin’s contribution has been underplayed. The great Assyriologist C. J. Gadd, however, termed Ram-Sin’s reign as the golden age of Sumer.

        Bandar-e Lengeh In The Persian Gulf
        The fact that Khammu-ravi’s palace has not been found in Babylon may be due to the presence of an older city named Babil in Eastern Iran. Although this is denied by the presently available archaeological evidence is likely that future excavations would unearth Hammu-rabi’s link with the Seistan area. Learned archaeologists like H. D. Sankalia of the Deccan College, Pune, were not aware of Jones’ blunder but wrote in clear terms that modern Sri Lanka cannot be the Lanka of Valmiki. Reference may be made here to Bandar-e Lengeh in the Laristan area of the Persian gulf. According to E. A. Speiser, many Sumerian city-names were echoes of the names of earlier cities in Elam. Thus Larsa may be an echo of Lar in the Gulf area. Lar was once the name of Gujrat. There may also have been an earlier Kish near Sih-talu. It may be Lanka of the Ramayana was near Bandar-e Lengeh. There is a small island near Lengeh which may also be significant. Some other names like Hetumant in the Helmand area remind one of Setuband. Dandanakan near Merv was on the Silk route and resembles Dandakavana.

        Sanskrit, Vedas, Brahmins and Kshtriyas have created the biggest blunder in our history. They have brain-trained the public in vedic-pond frog mentality. You don’t want to think outside your borders.

      • @Mac : only if you were person with a little grey matter, I have pointed out to you earlier also but it seems that things don’t go past your THICK skull

        Hammurabi the arch enemy of Arya Ram-sin didn’t had 10 heads, he is the Ravana of Mahabharata. It is the same mythical history written in Dasaratha Jhataka and Mahabharata.

        you are again putting Ramayana and Mahabharata in the same time frame , are you totally devoid of human intelligence ? reading your “copy paste ” material makes me feel that i am conversing with a retard.

        RikVeda (4.57.6) is talking about agriculture and sita means “line of a ploughshare” you can refer any Sanskrit dictionary for the meaning of “sita”, it deos not mean “`Auspicious Sita, come thou near, we venerate and worship thee’” i believe this is comming for your pathetic christian translations of veda where in “prajaPati” mean “Jesus Christ,saviour of the people”

        besides that if RV talked about sita (the person) it means RV was composed after Ram, which is totally absurd as absurd as you are in person.

        Besides did you not read
        what i said

        First of all There have been people with the name “Ram” all over the world and it does in no way conclude that others are the same as Maryada purushottam Shir Ram.

        if someone worships Ram does it mean that he atomically becomes a credible historian and archeologist, are you nuts or what.

      • @Ankur,
        I can’t believe you are so poor at it. Rig Veda 4:57.6 arvÁcI subhage bhava sÍte vándAmahe tvA yáthA naH subhágÁsasi yáthA naH suphálÁsasi.

        Translation : Auspicious Sita (Godess of Furrow), come thou near: we venerate and worship thee / That thou mayst bless and prosper us and bring us fruits abundantly.

        What is the meaning of venerate? Ram-sin, Warad-sin and Sita worshipped An, Enlil, and Enki at Elam and in Ur, Babylon. It is sanskritization which has screwed up everything and so rightly pointed out by our archeological and linguistics experts. When I say Elam, IT COVERS THE WHOLE INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION. You do not know anything outside veda and that is where you are stuck. You must have never tried to see the old Elam, Persian and Mesopotamian maps which are available on internet now. All your vedic scriptures are poetries of legends of folklores called myths.

        I had given you so many references which exactly matches the events and names with your scriptures. Still, you are into your vedic pond-frog mentality of blunt denial. You even deny Dr Joshi who is the former Director General of the Archaeological Survey of India and Dr Rao, a former Deputy Superintending Archaeologist with the ASI.

        I will give you another reference from the Bible of another Elamite King who ruled upto certain parts of NW India. Susa is the capital of Elam.

        Esther 1:1-3 This is what happened during the time of Xerxes (Ashuraures), the Xerxes who ruled over 127 provinces stretching from India to Cush (Ethiopia). At that time King Xerxes reigned from his royal throne in the citadel of Susa, and in the third year of his reign he gave a banquet for all his nobles and officials. The military leaders of Persia and Media, the princes, and the nobles of the provinces were present.

        Japheth was the youngest son of Noah. Early history shows the Japhethites split into two groups. One group settled in the region of present-day India and Central Asia, and the other group in the European theater. Indo-European languages originate from those people groups who migrated throughout western Eurasia (Europe, the Near East, Anatolia, and the Caucasus). Together they form what is known as the “Indo-European” family of nations. Both of these divisions trace their ancestry back to Japheth. For example, early Aryans knew him as Djapatischta (chief of the race), Greeks referred to Japheth as Iapetos or Japetos, East Indians called him Jyapeti or Pra-Japati, Romans used Ju-Pater or Jupiter, the Saxons perpetuated his name as Iafeth, subsequently transliterated as Sceaf (pronounced “sheef” or “shaif”—and recorded his name in their early genealogies as the son of Noah, the forebear of their various peoples), and the variant Seskef was used by early Scandinavians. All of these peoples, we must remember, were pagans whose knowledge or even awareness of the book of Genesis had been lost, or was non-existent.

        Genesis 10 is the Table of Nations. There were 70 nations born out of Noah’s 3 sons which I have listed in my Comment of September 6, 2012.

      • I don’t find any difference between your interpretation and my interpretation. Sita is the Godess of Furrow, a trench which links the source of water with the ploughed field. And, she was venerated as a Godess from the position of a Priestess of the temple in Ur, Iraq; and wherein An, Enlil, and Enki were worshipped. What Rim-sin (Arya Ram-anna) did in his rule of 60 years are also recorded.

        In slang spanish mamacita means a hottie or a hot lady.

      • @Mac: As usual i really don’t like it to educate you, but for your kind info i don’t need a certificate in veda from you or you Christian evangelists, i can read and understand devnagri and sanskrit.

        First of all there is no history and geography in veda so as i already said that veda cannot mention sita (the person, that was in times of Rama) as that would mean RV was written after Ram, which is absurd, you do not seem to understand historic timelines and basic naming of people, my cousin is named as vikramaditya, so should i replace the history of vikramaditya with my cousin’s life history ?

        RK veda 4:57.6 ( a simple shadba artha(word meaning) for you though there is a “bhava artha” (deeper meaning) as well which you will not be able to related to)

        Arvachi Bhav : may you dig deep in the earth
        site : line of a ploughshare(furrow) {agriculture}
        subhage : due to your glory
        site tva vandamahe : we know your utilities and how to use you judiously
        yatha : as a result of which
        nah : for us
        subhaga asisi : you bring good fortue to us
        yatha : with which
        naha : for our use
        sufala asisi: bring great furits and results

        so in short it means when a field is ploughed accurately with a plough making furrows deep enough, we will be blessed with great results and fruits,

        You see in the whole mantra there is no mention of (GODDESS) as you stupidly assume, even in your copied translations it mentions furrow but alas confusion so easily creeps in uneducated and illiterate minds like that of yours.

        BTW could you share with us the transliteration of RK veda 4.57.7 and 4.57.8 please. so that we are able to see how sita is actually in mentioned in rig veda.

      • Ram is your god and Sita his wife is not! How come? Fallen angels (nephilims, half angels half man) marrying daughters of men is pre-Noahic flood history. I had studied sanskrit as subject for two years but that is very long time ago. Again there were 300 major gods and goddesses worshipped in Mesopotamia of ancient times and their names have been sanskritized badly by those Medes people. Ur, Iraq use to be a HUB of idolatry, demon worship, sorcery, human and animal sacrifices and they use to have terafims (walking talking idols of local demons), there was much evil then. And all the descendents of the 3 sons of Noah were living together at Ur, Najaf and Fallujah, the sunni triangle of today, which is the old Babylon. Where they were building a tower under King Nimrod, son of Cush, son of Ham, son of Noah. God came down and confused their language that is why it is called the tower of Babel (confusion) as they were building a tower to reach to those who brought flood on earth and destroyed all flesh. From their God divided their tongue and they spread out in three groups in 3 different direction. One went north which is all Europeans, one went down south which is old Elam and another went towards Mitzraim (Egypt) at that time. This is before Dasrath, Ram or Bharat were born. Your rig vedic knowledge was with them in scrap form and was then later on put into writing with folklores and legends of folklores stories and the teachings of the fallen angels. King Nimrod was the greatest sorcerer of all times.

      • @Mac: what words should i use for your in decent langage , i am not sure. 🙂
        you say there is not much difference between my and your interepretations, which i agree but that difference is on which you are concoting histories of the world, i hope that you know mathematics.Like one teaches a toddler i have to tell you, because you have not grown out of your pram.

        the actual meaning of the mantra RV 4.57.6
        Sita = furrow
        if you dont know mathamatical operations in plain english
        “Sita” in sanskrit means “Furrow” in English (this is called transliteration)

        your interpretation

        Sita = Goddess of Furrow

        now do you see the difference and why is it so important? you are conniving to have added words ,to con volute the meaning of a physical thing i.e. “furrow” to “Goddess of furrow”.

        as advised again and again and again… please consult a samskrit dictionary for the meaning of the SAMSKRIT word “Sita”.

        To answer you Shri Ram is “NOT” GOD he was an exemplary person in every aspect of life and worth to be emulated.

        Again you dont seen to understand there are NO FOLKLORE or STORIES in the VEDA do you have a problem in understanding this. I don’t think i need to go any further with an individual who does not have to knowledge of Nirukta,nighantu and the other scriptures that are a precursor to understand Vedic Samskrit,
        and who relies of christian translations of the Veda which have been debunked long long ago and labelled as NON RELIABLE.

        Advice to others at Agniveer, dear friends leave this MAC alone, he is adding nothing and wasting our precious time.so just let him be.

      • Let me make it clear that there were TWO Sitas. The RV verse we are talking about is from the first Sita who was a sister of Warad-sin brother of Rim-sin. She was exalted or venerated from the position of a High Priestess to a Goddess of Furrow. The second Sita is in your mythical poetries. The first one is in RV verse we were talking about.

        Now, the question is this, what history do we have for Arya Ram-anna’s wife Sita? For the first Sita, the High Priestess of the temple of those 3 gods I mentioned in my above posts in Ur, Iraq was kidnapped by Hammurabi (Ravana). So how far your mythology goes and HOW come you rely on only ONE man’s writing? Does the laws of this world not require two or more witnesses to confirm the truth? One man wrote and you rely on it and came in another generation corrected and added some and deleted some and you rely on it. And, you call yourself from the reformed vedic sect. These things we have chewed and spitted it out before Christians canonnized 66 books of bible, leaving a world of scriptural literature aside.

        Our scriptures are written over a 1600 years of time by 40 authors, different books confirming the same truth. All of it different historical proof of God’s works.

        You deny your own vedic culture FIR.

      • Mac, Mr. Spanky, clearly has some issues. The fact that he is on here and insulting and disrespecting people here clearly shows he has mental problems. I think his mother didn’t take care of him as a child. She might have not breast feed him and now he has mother issues. I honestly think his father raped him as a child. That is why he went looking for a desert father who will meet his needs mentally and physically. Poor Mr. Spanky is always looking desperately to spank and get physical with someone so he can act as his father did on him to a poor unsuspected kid. Instead of insulting and stating he will spank people, he should see a doctor, so he won’t repeat the sins of his father.

      • Well, Ankur, I just want to add to my above comment few more answers and some questions.

        QUOTE
        To answer you Shri Ram is “NOT” GOD he was an exemplary person in every aspect of life and worth to be emulated.
        UNQUOTE
        Then, who is God? And, you also believe in Avtars, right. Please explain.

        Secondly, I have a whole list of the works Arya Ram-Anna did in his 60 years rule, things he built and the prosperity he brought to the people in his kingdom. Now, he was a people’s king, he was most beloved. The only thing I dont have is the translation of the Persian dates thereto.

        Was Valmiki studied in Takshashila University and he was a cheap high way robber? Well, by counting your dates, Takshashila Uni. was not there when Valmiki wrote some myths of Ramayan after tested by a Jain Sage. SO, where R V?

        Do U have Valmiki’s original poetries? Or, with a blunt vedic lies, you will say YES, we do have! You are from a reformed vedic paganism sect, you still have to reform, brits by laws reformed you and stopped vedic evil rituals in their times and still you have to improve.

        For it is written: ELAM will be ashamed because of his idolatry.

      • what nonsense are you speaking your jesus never said worship me as god krishna was the only figure to say he is god and to worship him? why dont you accept the man that actually said he was god? there is many evidence to say alot of things mentioned in the mahabharta are accurate if you are going to say krishna didnt exist your jesus is worse despite he only lived 2000 years ago?

      • Don’t get too excited. Read my comment of September 5, 2012 above or key Ctrl F and type in “Jesus claimed godship”, you will get there. I don’t like to repeat.

      • Wow, this from a guy who comes on this sight and insults everyone here by calling them demon worshipers. Seriously man, you have some major problems. You need to address the issues you have. The fact that you are still on here harassing everyone shows you really have mental issues and some deep rooted insecurities. And only some who has such deep rooted insecurities run around and claim no I’m just trying to save people is a convenient excuse. Seriously see a doctor and get your problems checked out. And yes, you are a retard, only a retard would go on someone else’s religious site and call everyone on there demon worshipers. You have problems. Get them addressed retard.

        And watch the video: If Jesus was alive today he would burn the bible.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyEJji4J2_Y&list=UUJaWl9qZkMCnv2ZRNHjPGjw&index=1&feature=plcp

        And the guy who made the video used to be a ex-Christian. He was actually a born again christian. Until he practiced meditation and connected with God. He realized how much bullshit is in the bible. He had an enlightenment experience and he knows that meditation talked about in the Gita is right. He knows Yoga and meditation is so right. And about 1% of the bible is right, if that. One day, if you are willing to be brave enough, maybe you can go ahead and meditate and connect with God directly instead of wasting your time fighting with people like a complete jerk who as mental problems.

      • And if Jesus was alive today, he would burn the bible, turn around and say to you,
        “you are free brother.” And give you a hung with pure love.

      • LOL, you are certainly amusing! Its not me, who says that it is the Word of God which says that. Let me quote again those verses which clearly says that IDOLATRY IS DEMON WORSHIP.

        And the rest of mankind, who were not killed with these plagues, repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and the idols of gold, and of silver, and of brass, and of stone, and of wood; which can neither see, nor hear, nor walk: [Revelation 9:20]

        Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. [Romans 1:23-25]

        For this ye know of a surety, that no fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. [Ephesians 5:5]

        Put to death therefore your members which are upon the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry; [Colossians 3:5]

        Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties, envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you [Galatians 5:19-21]

        Krishnarao, again idolatry brings darkness both inside and outside. Corruption is a vedic gene, deep rooted in vedic culture. We have corruption the vedic invention from Peon to President in India and there aint nothing you can do about it, UNTIL you worship the demons and not the only One Living God, God of Abraham.

        Krishnarao, what do you call a donkey in your countryside you live??? Where I live, we call a donkey a donkey and a pig a pig.

      • That means your bible is a book of insults. simple as that. Just because your bible makes insults doesn’t make saying your insults right. it makes your bible a book of insults.

        Next. this is a Vedic sight. We don’t believe in idol worship. we believe in meditating on the one God. And you praying to jesus is actually a form of idol worship as well. Get over yourself big boy. you are a idol worshiper.

        And watch the video about Jesus burning the bible. The guy is an ex-christian. And now practices meditation. As the guy said, Jesus would take the bible burn it and than turn around say you are free brother. And give you a hug with pure love. Become free mr. mac. Release yourself from the chains of your bible.

      • Bro., As surely as I worship the living God, I can’t hate you in my darkest dreams because you are my flesh and blood, a desi brother, I just can’t.

        But, you do not bring any substance in your arguments and you know I dont like to argue. I like to share truth, wisdom and historical proof. Anyway, let thy wilt be done.

        See, what I think, I desire mercy and peace. For it I who killed Yeshua, the Son of God by my sins. I beat Him 40 minus one Roman lashes. At 40 Roman lashes a horse dies. And, I used the lashes with spikes in ’em, I tored down his body from back and front as well. I defaced Him, so that His Mother Mary can’t even recognize Him, I beat Him so badly and defaced Him. Then, I spitted on Him and fisted Him and then I made a crown of thorns and forced it on His head. Then I put the biggest cross on His shoulder and He had hardly any strength to carry it outside of the city to Calvery hill and I still beat Him all the way and He was unable to carry His cross, so I got Simon to carry it with Him unto Calvery hill and there I nailed Him to cross. He only lived about 3/4 hours on the cross, none of His bones were broken as it is written in the scriptures, because He was already dead when I approached Him. But, I did thurst a spear into His heart and water and blood flew out and He was already dead.

        But, when He rose from death on the 3rd day, He calls me BROTHER. It takes away my breath, He is not ashamed or feel anything in between remorse and love THAT He calls me brother, so lovingly and I am a cry baby.

        I have only one brother who is elder than me and His Name is Yeshua Ha Machiach.

      • You killed Jesus in your previous birth! So, you too believe in the Vedic concept of transmigration and reincarnation of souls.

      • Eph 4:5&6 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism. Eph 4:5&6 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

      • What is that supposed to mean? If you could be kind enough to elaborate further in simple layman’s term. In any case, Vicjags had a serious problem with a Vedic verse conveying a similar meaning. I do not how is he going to take this one? Probably, on face value, I guess.

        In any case, Vicjags will be given a befitting reply by 7 pm after my shift is over.

      • Fine. BTW, Vicjags probably feels that the “Christian scientists” are probably exempt from following the scientific methodologies if they were to prove science from the Bible. And he does not bother to negate the pseudoscientific ideas that they bring forth in order to validate its teachings.

      • Even if the verse is removed from context, vicjags did not provide any proof that the miraculous healing had anything to do with Christ and Christianity as he very emotionally and vehemently claimed, what he did is went to great lengths to prove that the experiment results did not PROVE in any way the verse, besides the experiment still did not reached any concrete conclusions as he understands it.
        In any case the verse has been there since Veda existed, so there is no need to PROVE what a verse means is in essence right or wrong, its interpretation (which existed before the experiment was conducted) may only find corroboration in modern science.

      • @MAC: one question : on what basis are you saying that RV is talking about the goddess but not the actual furrow does the goddess plough the field of the plough? Please back your argument but some logical way and not by hollow claims.
        and as requested can you give me that translation of the next two verses 4.57.7 and 4.57.8 w.r.t your seeta claim.
        Avatars is not a vedic concept, its from the purans, you need to get educated my friend.

        There are mantras in AV which have the word “Krishna” in it do you mean to say that they are referring to Krishna of Geeta?
        you are serious candidate for a new gen Einstein as far as your reasoning prowess goes 🙂

      • It goes by the original blessings and curses of the law as God spoke to Moses AND the blessings and curses of Noah to his sons. Nothing knew, it still goes exactly as they have said.

        The Word of God is ever green always. His Name is Yeshua Ha Mashaiach and He never changes.

      • yes his followers believed he was son of god but not god almighty the father and muslims give a good reply to this when jesus says he is like god he is trying to say him and the father both have the same purpose and if you saw god he would be like jesus as they believe god is invisible and they also say injeel was corrupted like the resurrection and crucification i respect jesus but dont see him as god unlike krishna who makes it clear in many verses there are few hindus who say krishna is the father while jesus is the son

      • here says tell the jews they are gods Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? and read Mark 24: 32-36,John 12:49,Joh 14:24 and read Mat 15:24 jesus tells them he has been sent only for israel and read John 20:16-18 christianity and islam are both false judaism if any of the abrahamic beilefs is the only good one

      • Jesus said: Who is good? Nobody is good except God Almighty.

        He pours rain on good and bad and feeds both of them.

        Yeshua Ha Mashaich is the goodness of God, the character of God, goodness. As He said to Moses at the burning bush, My goodness will go before you and I will close your eyes then and after that I will pass by and you will see a part of My back (Exodus 3).

        John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

        Job 38.41 Who provides food for the raven when its young cry out to God and wander about for lack of food?

        Matthew 6:26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?

      • There is this incredible ayat from the Honored Qur’an which indeed is a very profound text which leads Muslims to ask those who have the Book, (the Bible Scriptures)

        “If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.” Sura 10:94 Yunus

        Here it says that Muslims who were in doubt, to consult with those who have the Bible. Amazing but true…the Honored Qur’an points to the Bible.

        Before opening it’s pages, always ask (du’a) of Allah to teach you the correct understanding when reading. Allah blesses those who sincerely are learners and seekers for righteousness. Taurat Jeremiah 29:13 ‘And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.’ Those who seek Allah, must seek with all the heart. May Allah bless you abundantly.

        We the Body and Church of Christ have the Torah and the Injeel, ASK us and we will show you in which direction you should go.

      • yes except god almighty so how can you worship jesus? and those verses only show jesus as son of god not god almighty that you have to worship him and by te way jesus is not speaking this it was one of his followers by the way have you looked at the references which show jesus cant be god almighty that you christians believe in? and as for quran as i can remember it doesnt say the bible is corrupted but says christians claim isa is the son of allah and as for going back isnt that what muslims are doing when they make references that jesus never said he was god almighty? as it is true the new testament has been changed espically some of the words

      • eg according to biblical scholors Acts 8:37 where philip says jesus is the son of god it didnt exist in any greek manuscript before 600 ad one of most widly verses used by christians to show jesus was peaceful is Matthew 5:44 the earliest manuscript say But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you and then now we have But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you. see the difference i respect jesus but i think the early christians simply changed his true msesage he probably didnt even say he was a prophet i think personally think jesus if existed was like gandhi going against roman rule like he did against british

      • From Adam to Moses to Abraham and the rest of the prophets talks about the coming of Messiah, this Jesus Christ, the begotten Son of God, all thru the scriptures. All creation is created for His glory, Yeshua the Shekinah (glory) of God. For God says: I shalt not give My glory to nobody…….

        God Himself calls Yeshua “O God” ;

        Pslam 45:6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of Your kingdom.

        Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son He (God) says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

        Hebrews 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God (Yeshua), your God (YWHW), has set You above Your companions by anointing You with the oil of joy.

        Lamentations 5:19 You, O LORD, reign forever; Your throne endures from generation to generation.

        Hebrews 1:6 And again, when God brings His first begotten into the world, He says, “Let all God’s angels worship Him.”

        Not just human beings, but it is the EXPRESS desire of God that all creation including angels should worship Yeshua Ha Mashaiach.

      • It is the EXPRESS desire of God Almighty, Eloha THAT all creation worship Him————>Yeshua, the Son of God. God do not accept worship and praise UNLESS it comes thru Yeshua. God has put all creation under His feet. First, read the Gospel and Torah, which you do not understand and then ask me a question. Start it from John. I will teach you.

      • no that is why the jews say jesus did not fulfill the jewish messiah prophecy the jews know more about the book than the christians who follow jesus

      • Whether you are a vaishnav or a muslim. It is I who studied all thru in an orthodox jewish school. What they believe or not, I know you dont.

        Jews have the torah and the prophets; and the oral law. Also the Covenant and the promise of a Messiah, a Deliverer as God promised Moses, Abraham, Jacob and David is theirs. We, christians have the Gospel, the Torah and the prophets and above all Messiah, the Son of God, Yeshua Ha Mashiach, God in flesh and His grace. We are children of Abraham by Faith, Yeshua, his friend. For Abraham was not yet circumcized at the age of 99 and he believed in the word of God and His promise. So it was credited to him as righteousness. So, righeousness comes by Faith and His Name is Yeshua Ha Mashiach.

        Those jews who believed in Yeshua Ha Mashiach are the messianic jews called christians. But, for the rest of the jews who didnt believed Yeshua, God’s promise to the patriarchs still stands. It would be fulfilled in the second coming of Yeshua Ha Mashiach.

        There is one life, one hope, one death, one resurrection, one Lord, one judgement day and one God, who is all in all and above all, Blessed be His Name forever and forever. Amen!

  21. This article is stunning!

    What a piece of reserch Agniveer team has done, hats off!
    This article must start further research on such findings. I read some where that some people in deep Russia have been worshipping Krishna for many generations.
    It is an accepted fact today that Sanskrit is the mother of most of the European languages. That means, Sanskrit was a common thread. It may take some more time, but may be we can find vedic religion was a common thread worldwide.

    • Sanskrit is the descendent language of Prakrit, the Jain language. Also, Sanskrit was brought by Medes people, it is not an Elamite language. So also Medes (mostly north Indians, Pakis, Afghanis and Iranis, southern Iraqis) practised this vedic religions and veda is from them, basically. Elamites who lived in Indus valley have not such artifacts found, which resembles vedic culture………………..PERIOD. So don’t jump the Agniveer gun, he is another vedic-pond-frog. Sanskrit is a lower level Indo-Iranian language group. Think outside the box and also visit http://www.indiaculture.net and find the truth of your brahmanic LIES.

      • One need not jump the Agniveer gun but go along with the distortions that Judeo-Christians (like Mac) bring forth? So, the last word in history and archaeology has been said and whatever Mac and his ilk say is final, right?

      • It is the research of renowned world linguists including Indian linguists. They all agree on what I said because it is from them. All languages were born out of two mother languages Hebrew and Aramaiac. You can Google for the language groups for yourself instead of blabbering with closed eyes. You do not have ability to think outside the box and your vedic pond-frog mentality has blinded you.

      • @MAC
        The word sanskrita, meaning “refined” or “purified,” is the antonym of prakrita, meaning “natural,” or “vulgar.” It is made up of the primordial sounds, and is developed systematically to include the natural progressions of sounds as created in the human mouth.
        Prakrit is a dialect or an impure form of Sanskrit language it was used widely in literature as the language of the people of the lower class.

        http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Sanskrit.htm

      • I like the term you used for sanskrita “primordial sounds”, thats very amusing. Anyway, I mul quote from wikipedia.

        Middle Indo-Aryan languages (Middle Indic languages, sometimes as Prakrit) is a group in the Indo-Aryan branch of the Indo-Iranian languages. Middle Indo-Aryan languages are the descendants of the Old Indo-Aryan languages such as Vedic, Epic Sanskrit and Classical Sanskrit, and the predecessors of the Modern Indo-Aryan languages such as Hindustani (Hindi-Urdu), Oriya, Bengali, and Punjabi.

        The Middle Indo-Aryan stage in the evolution of Indo-Aryan languages is thought to have spanned more than a millennium between 600 BC – 1000 AD, and is often divided into three major subdivisions.

        The early stage is represented by the inscriptions of Asoka (c. 250 BC) and by Pāli (used in Buddhist scriptures) and Ardhamāgadhī (used in Jain scriptures).

        The middle stage is represented by the various literary Prakrits, especially Sauraseni, Maharashtri and Magadhi. The term Prakrit is also often applied to Middle Indo-Aryan languages (prakrita literally means “natural” as opposed to sanskrita, which literally means “constructed” or “refined”). Modern scholars such as Michael C. Shapiro follow this classification by including all Middle Indo-Aryan languages under the rubric of “Prakrits”, while others emphasise the independent development of these languages, often separated from Sanskrit by social and geographic differences.

        The late stage is represented by the Apabhraṃśa languages of the sixth century AD and later that preceded early Modern Indo-Aryan languages.

        Indo-Aryan languages falls in the category of Indo-Iranian language family group. It is not my assumption, it is the research and study of world linguists not just Europeans but Indian linguists as well.

        I believe there is a reason for everything happening in this creation and under the sun. We have to just find it out.

  22. Did you read my answer to SDC on divinity and spirituality? Well, I wrote in the first place that he ain’t gonna get it, spirituality, divinity, holiness. But its funny, you need to read my answer to his question and his reply and further on. I guess, you may enjoy it. I don’t hate him, but his response is so funny, enjoy it with me.

  23. Oh Paratma!!!

    Please give proper backbone to us, as we are not able to with stand in this kaliyuga… we are loosing our cultures, society and many things.

  24. jesus being only 2000 years old probably was not even a real person my personal view is that jesus is a copy of beliefs before him made into one but if by chance he was jesus didnt even say he was god but i believe he probably was somebody who was a jew who was making a new movement against roman empire and he was crucified for it and his followers and people after them like paul,constaine made him god

    • Saul, whose name Jesus changed to Paul after He appeared to Saul on his way to Damascus was a Pharisee, a Rabbi and Member of Sanhedrine (jewish court of law) who was appointed to execute the followers of Jesus Christ after Jesus’ acsension to heaven. Paul was going from town to town and was executing the early followers of Jesus Christ by stoning them to death or cutting them to pieces. When Jesus appeared to him in a brilliant light, he was blinded for 3 days and was sent to someone’s home with an ordered to be healed. Jesus asked Paul; “Saul, why do you persecute Me?” So from there Paul started to learn from the other apostles about Jesus’ teaching and then he started to preach. Emperor Nero was an anti-Christ. He killed millions of the early christians.

      Jesus predicted His death. He also said that He will destroy this temple and raise it in 3 days. He was talking about His body. Why should He predict His own death, which He knew what is going to come? He should have avoided just by running away. Do you think He was sucidal, who had hundreds of thousands of followers? Romans didn’t wanted kill Jesus, it were the jews who crucified Jesus because Jesus claimed His godship so many times, the Hebrew God Yah or I AM. Yah is such a holy word for jews that they even today do not utter it instead they use 72 titles for it. It is a blasphemy to claim godship under jewish laws. You must see the movie “Passion of Christ” rest you will understand. It is in the original language in aramaic and hebrew with English subtitles. But, it is too graphic to watch.

      His movement was against nobody in particular but against the realms of spiritual world and Satan. God made a mockery of the powers, authorities, principalites and Satan in the realms of spiritual world by nailing the SIN on the cross, WHO knew no sin i.e. Jesus Christ, Son of God.

      Jesus said: “It is finished!”. Sin gets its power from the law. And the law is fulfilled once and for all and put aside. Now no more sacrifices and killings under the law. As per the law, the wages of sin is death. Jesus has paid for our sins once and for all.

      • jesus was nothing true he probably didnt he even exist but me personally i respect jesus but reject christianity and christians please go read books by acharya s and documentarys by robert beckford even your bibical scholors say it is probably false im skeptical individual me studing many religions i see the eastern/dharmic beliefs are good and modern agnostism/athiesm are the only possibilities you living in india should accept one of these

      • I have two uncles, who are retired from the theology colleges. Both have Ph.ds in theology, one has Ph.d in Old Testament. I myself a student of the classical Talmud, studied all thru in an orthodox jewish school, 10 times better than any convent school. Are you telling me to listen to your punk acharayas who have not even travelled enough in India itself? Are you not another vedic pond-frog? Have you ever thought outside the box? Man, you need to attend Baba Ramdev’s seminars.

      • There is nothing wrong in attending Baba Ramdev’s seminars. I myself took classes for about one year in Arya Samaj yoga and gymnastics in my area and I loved it. That was when I was a kid. Yoga and gymnastics are good exercise for body and mind. As far as Jesus having a Ph.D, I will say does the Physical Creator needs a teacher??? Yeshua is the Wisdom of God who was with God in the beginning.

        Wisdom’s call:

        Proverbs 8:12 “I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
        I possess knowledge and discretion.
        13 To fear the Lord is to hate evil;
        I hate pride and arrogance,
        evil behavior and perverse speech.
        14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
        I have insight, I have power.
        15 By me kings reign
        and rulers issue decrees that are just;
        16 by me princes govern,
        and nobles—all who rule on earth.
        17 I love those who love me,
        and those who seek me find me.
        18 With me are riches and honor,
        enduring wealth and prosperity.
        19 My fruit is better than fine gold;
        what I yield surpasses choice silver.
        20 I walk in the way of righteousness,
        along the paths of justice,
        21 bestowing a rich inheritance on those who love me
        and making their treasuries full.

        22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,
        before his deeds of old;
        23 I was formed long ages ago,
        at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
        24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
        when there were no springs overflowing with water;
        25 before the mountains were settled in place,
        before the hills, I was given birth,
        26 before he made the world or its fields
        or any of the dust of the earth.
        27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
        when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
        28 when he established the clouds above
        and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
        29 when he gave the sea its boundary
        so the waters would not overstep his command,
        and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
        30 Then I was constantly[e] at his side.
        I was filled with delight day after day,
        rejoicing always in his presence,
        31 rejoicing in his whole world
        and delighting in mankind.

        32 “Now then, my children, listen to me;
        blessed are those who keep my ways.
        33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
        do not disregard it.
        34 Blessed are those who listen to me,
        watching daily at my doors,
        waiting at my doorway.
        35 For those who find me find life
        and receive favor from the Lord.
        36 But those who fail to find me harm themselves;
        all who hate me love death.”

        In the Book of Enoch, Enoch says: When Adon (means the Lord) came, He came with great light.

        That is to say when God called forth Adon from the radiance of His glory (Shekinah), He came with a great light. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory (Hebrews 1).

  25. So, the experience of the divine in only limited to the prophets, is it? I do not subscribe to such exclusive divinity. Each soul is potentially divine. He just needs to realize it.

    Agniveer is entitled to his opinions on experiencing the divine.

    But the problem is borders are often transgressed and mischievous ways are resorted to, and that is when things become unsavory.

    Solely relying on subjective experiences could be faulty. Even lunatics have experiences of their own, but we know for a certainty that those are basically his mind playing games with him. Hallucinations and delusions are also subjective experiences.

    • @SDC; This would really go above your head, a sure bouncer. But, anyhow I will give you some hints on it and the rest comes from the “Calling of God”. What is divinity? How can a person be divine, if the Holy Spirit has not been given to him/her? And, how come one receive Holy Spirit, the Power from God and He is a person, a spiritual entity, if it were not sent by God? There are 9 gifts of Holy Spirit. Only the Apostles had all the nine gifts and the rest of the prophets and those who are called by God only have one or two, at the most three gifts of Holy Spirit. Jesus has warned us NOT TO mock the Holy Spirit because it executes judgement on the spot.

      When you say Soul, it in fact is the covering of the Spirit or Ruah or Atma, that is the body. The word Soul is nowadays interchangeably used for Spirit/Ruah. Now, the two sides of Ruah/Spirit, left and right, one rises up to unite with the divine in our sleep. Ruah is bound within supernal Neshamah, and the Neshamah is bound within Ein Sof.

      King Solomon the wisest King who ever lived on the face of the earth says in;

      Ecclesiastes 3:11 He (God) has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

      The Substance of Faith is in believing the Word of God.

      Still, men says: Seeing is believing. (Blindfaith)
      But God says: Believing is seeing. (Faith)

      There are 3 levels of Holiness. First Holy is here, if it is given to you thru Holy Spirit. The second Holy, you will have to climb thru the Spirit of Truth, which unites you with the spiritual realm of the second heaven. The third Holy is the Most High God, you cant reach it in flesh because it is in the Most High heavens.

      I am not sure, if this much you can digest. For you it is too heavy spiritual food. Rest of the wisdom of understanding of the spiritual world only comes by God’s calling.

      • Man, I cannot stop laughing at your spiritual “bouncers.” Mac, the spammer par excellence, I sometimes wonder if you even deserve a response. I personally rebutted your copy-paste researches on many occasions, and I am in no mood to go over that drill again. Probably, Vic may have some words of advice for you. You are best ignored. But still, let me just put a point across: Much of what you say is fictional (If not, then produce evidence to prove me wrong).

      • Didnt I started my comment with a phrase, “its going to be a bouncer”. I thought so and I knew, you may not get it. Well, I am a good baller, all 6 I use to put in one single hole, yorkers, well that was different time. I suggest, if you dont know how to swim, please dont enter the waters of the ocean. For even a little wave will flip you over and you will get drowned, LOL.

        People like you, SDC, who tries their best to defy the truth. But, even if you bury the truth, it still lives in the grave. And it will one day rise from the grave, climb the roof tops and SHOUT.

        TRUTH NEVER CHANGES, IT CHANGES THINGS AROUND IT. It remains alive because it is the only truth and it is with me not U.

      • Well, I did give you a scare with my bouncer which you effectively skirted/ducked: “Much of what you say is fictional (If not, then produce evidence to prove me wrong).” Well, Mackie boy, I know that you are a good martial artist, a good shooter, a good bowler, a good spammer (ahem). So, please do not keep extolling your virtues. I am sorry to say, mate, this time round your “truth” just kept silent and did not produce any verifiable data for a reasonable analysis.

      • You dont have to do anything, just Ctrl F and type in Mac on this blog and read all my posts. You will find all your answers both faith and blindfaith and also know who Ram, Bharat and Sita were because I am not going to fill the blog with repeat comments.

    • The world is made up of Carbon,hydrogen,oxygen,phosphorus etc.The carbon did not say to hydrogen to combine each other to form a carbohydrate.Similarly,nucleic acid,amino acids did not say to join each other.As these substances cannot join each other on their own so there must be some invisible entity who is combining these with his power.Electric current cannot be seen.Electric current is just the transfer of electron or any charged particles through a cross-sectional area in unit time i.e. i=q/t.Electric current can’t be seen.Can one see magnetic field?Can one see electric filed?Electric field lines are just imaginary lines to explain the direction of the electric filed of the charged particle.Electric spark is different from electric current.
      Man can see only those radiations which fall in the visible range of the wavelength.But there are other lights too which other animals can see but humans can’t.SO there can be some invisible things too.An atom can’t be seen.So we should deny the existence of the atoms by rejecting Rutherford’s experiments.Is it right?
      For example,you left your purse in the bus while reaching to a station and you went leaving the purse inside the bus.Other man caught your purse and thought there does not exist any owner of the purse like you because at that time he did not see anyone like you to say this purse is mine.
      For example,you went to Himalayas and saw them.After coming back your eyes were not getting the image of Himalayas so does it mean Himalayas does not exist?

      Similarly,if God can’t be seen it does not mean he does not exist.

      The matter cannot combine own their own to from other products as they do not know how to combine.DOes a stone or a pebble knows physics and chemistry?If not then there must be some entity who knows physics and combined them in some law to form products.

      A pot is build by the potter by soil.But without the potter and the soil the pot can’t be made.As without potter a pot can’t be made then it means that this world was not made without God.Break my logic if you can?

  26. The first question that I would like to ask is: Who was the killer? You said nothing about the killer. Some kind of murder mystery, I guess. The invisible gardener story has more in common with the crop circles mystery. Again, Flew needed to answer as to who tidied up the garden.

    So you are suggesting that all those who convert, do so because they have had some kind of spiritual experience. Not necessarily so. A lot of blacks in America converted to Islam because of the ill treatment that was meted out to them, and also under the impression that Islam would guarantee them equality. Many Hindus converted to Islam to save their skins during the Islamic rule.

  27. Undoubtedly, empiricism forms the basis of scientific method, but it is not the only way of arriving at truth. Science does employ empirical methods but it goes beyond empiricism. Go through this link for more:

    http://davies-linguistics.byu.edu/elang273/notes/empirical.htm

    The reason why Hindus like me hate Christian missionaries is because of their nefarious ways of preaching Christianity. I have pointed out the menace of Christian fundamentalism that is so rampant in the Northeast region. I also brought out the fact the evangelists also actively support the Maoists and enlist their support in eliminating/threatening Hindu missionaries who are actively involved in bringing back the converted tribals into the Hindu fold. They prop up activists like Kancha to incite trouble within the Hindu fold. I also remember of an India TV expose where they brought to light the fact that Christian missionaries were luring poor people with money into accepting Christianity and denouncing Hinduism publicly.

    As Christians have every right to propagate their faith, we have every right to question their motives, modus operandi, and the supposed superiority of their faith.

  28. Again, attacking your baseless assumptions. When you go on propagating your faith, then questions will definitely be raised as to why people should switch over to your side, what so special about the faith/idea being propagated, how is it better than the one already being practiced, etc. People generally do not ask those imaginary questions of yours.

      • The key is Jesus was a follower of Vedic values. And it was the romans who changed his image for selfish power. Some of my best friends are people who left Christianity and are now followers of Dharam. Everyday people in the West are being liberated from the chains of christianity and are freeing themselves. Many told me they felt like they were always carrying a bag of bricks when they followed Christianity and went crazy fearing the devil. It wasn’t until they let go of that non-sense and opened their heart to reason and love, they were liberated. It was what lead them to the path of Dharam which equaled to love. And as in the spirit of Diwali from ignorance to knowledge.

        THey also stated they left christainity because of history centrism. Now they are not bonded by some chains of a historical person and more connected to a universal God.

        My Experience:
        And I personally had a dream of Jesus. And it felt like I was walking through the streets of the middle east some 2000 years ago. People were walking toward him knowing that he was a good person. I also went over to the place where he was. He was roasting some food over a fire. And when I Iooked at him, he said, “You have come a long way” in a very nice way. It was like I was journeying through life, and he knew it and I was doing well. I did not get a feeling that he wanted met to pray to him or worship him at all. Instead I felt like he knew I had my own journey and he was supporting me. I personally experienced Jesus, and I know from my personal experience that he did not what me to worship or pray to him. He was very okay with me being a follower of a Dharmic faith.

        When I saw him, he looked and actually reminded me of a native American sitting next to a fire with some friends and sharing wisdom with them. And enjoying a nice roasted.

      • You may be hallucinating, if you did not feel power of His presence in your dream. Jesus is the radiance of God’s glory and His presence marks the power of 12 legions of His personal angels. A legion is 6,000 angels. Raban Gamaliel, the Elder, author of Mishnah and Talmud; a Member of Sanhedrine (jewish court of law) as also he was the neighbour of Jesus Christ in Jerusalem says that when Yeshua came to play at my house with my son, the atmosphere of the house would change and the whole house would become fragrant. Jesus was walking on the thickly crowded street surrounding Him and people were already touching Jesus, when a woman suffering from constant menstrual bleeding thought that if she could only touch the hem of Jesus’ robe, she would be healed. So she did touched the hem of the robe and she was instantly healed. So Jesus said: Who touched Me for power has gone out of Me. Jesus spent his childhood playing with the kids around there. When He was young enough, He went to help his guardian father Joseph who was a carpenter some 4 miles from where He lived. Jesus never went to school, never had a teacher and never travelled over a 100 miles in His life time. Then, how come He learnt your vedas? In Jesus’ 3 years of public life, He preached in Jerusalem and surrounding towns only.

      • That guy in the video is funny-fool and one big bluffmaster. He is correlating things which has no meaning without historical ground. At the age of 10, Jesus was teaching to the Rabbis and Members of Sanhedrine, who were the appointed judges of court of law. He was teaching Torah, the law and creation wisdom to them. And this overwise moron in the video says that at 13, Jesus went to India and then to Greece. Everybody knows that Jesus’ guardian father Joseph was a carpenter. Jesus was living in a middle class family. So then how come Jesus got so much money at the age of 13 to travel all alone tens of cities in India and then tens of cities in Greece??? Krishnarao, can you please answer me this simple common sense question? You also know that our vedas, puranas, mahabharata, gita govinda, etc DO NOT have any historical proof, archeology, internal and external evidence (means the events should match with other historical books of its given time). And, here this guys in the video are trying to authenticate the falsehood of stupid minds.

        The guy in the video either knows and defies the truth or is foolishly ignorant about the records of Jesus’ childhood as mentioned in Talmud and other classical commentaries on Torah and the Prophets wherein Jesus of Nazareth. Also, the world famous jewish historian Flavius Josephus, who lived in Jerusalem during Jesus’ time has mentioned Jesus in his historical work. He was world famous historian because he was doing investigative historical work. The guy must have not yet read the books “Infancy of Jesus Christ Part 1 and 2” either. How come the neighbour of Jesus Christ viz. Judge Raban Gamaliel, the Elder mentions Jesus’ infant years in his writings?

        Secondly, that world famous picture of Jesus wearing the crown of thorns was drawn by Michael Angelo from the description of Jesus’s humble and godly nature given in the scriptures. He didnt lived during Jesus’ time. Other pictures in this video are also drawn way very many centuries after by various painters. The whole video is a cultist ideology of defying Christ. The books this video is mentioning are psuedo-apocryphal books including the Gospel of Thomas and hence, are not reliable.

        Have you heard about the Dead Sea Scrolls. They were written during Jesus’ time by His zoharic followers viz. Essens? Essens were pure jews who followed Jesus.

        Jesus said in Matthew 12:30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

        Bring something which has substance in it.

    • Faith is the substance of this creation and His Name is Yeshua Ha Mashiach, God in flesh, who came and repaid for our sins in flesh as the sting of death which comes from the sin, which came from the original sin, the disobedience of Adam to the Word of God. Sin gets its power from the law for its written “the wages of sin is death”. By Faith God created all creation and by Faith all things work together EXACTLY as His spoke, the Word, the substance of Faith. He was begotten (means called forth) from the radiance of God’s glory. He is the only most obedient begotten Son of God, the Commander in Chief of God’s Army who wars with Satan (the fallen one) and He is the One who stands with one leg in heavens and another between hell and hades (where the dead are sleeping). And, God has set apart ONE day to judge all creation, from Powers (rebellious angels) to the kings of this world and all people.

    • You failed to grasp my point: Very few practicing Hindus would consider Christianity as illogical for the simple reason that religious faiths themselves are illogical to begin with. Religious faith cannot withstand a logical scrutiny. I have explained to you the root causes of the antagonism, and it definitely does arise because of some Hindus finding Christianity illogical as you are suggesting.

      • There is a distinct difference between religious philosophy and religious beliefs that generally stem from subjective experiences. I am not questioning the validity of the concept of God/creator. I am simply emphasizing on the point that most faith based beliefs based on personal experiences and understandings of religious teachings have inherent logical flaws. Often, the word faith is used as a synonym for religion, but beliefs can be non-religious too. And hence, I was being specific in only singling out the beliefs of religious origin.

      • @SDC, You too are pissing me off. Let me make it clear, I am a Hindu a citizen of Hindustan and Bharat-varsh is my motherland. Hindu is not a religion, please dont try to HIJACK my citizenship, either way I belong to this land. Whatever corruption we have in our country, I was never a part of it.

        But, they denied me entrance in military because of Rs.10,000/-, my passions were lost, I was so much wanting to join the military, but I failed for corruption. I am still a soldier, a sharp shooter and a martial artist. But, I wanted to give it to my country, which I failed because of corruption.

        God works mysteriously. I am just a son of Bharat varsh.

      • @SDC, let me teach you the difference between an ISM and INITY, both are suffixs, right. An ISM is a school of thought, whereas INITY is the WAY. So then all your ISMS are nothing but philosophy of IDIOT BRAHMINS and INITY is the WAY, the ONLY WAY. It was called the WAY in the beginning and then now we call it christianity. AND THE WAY IS STILL THE ONLY WAY, because when Jesus said: IT IS FINISHED. there was an earthquate and the sun disappeared and darkness was there and thunder and lightening and it tore the main temple curtain into two from top to bottom and the SHEKINAH (Glory of God) left the temple of Yerushalayim. His Name is Yeshua Ha Mashaiach.

        We worship the only Living God, God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Holy Holy Holy to His Name forever and forever, Amen.

  29. Vicjags, Mac’s butt buddy,

    Why do you run away form the history centrisic question? Why are you such a wimp. Your jesus is just a historical character. God does not depend on history. Your religion is history centric and geographic centric.

    Address the history and geographic that’s been asked over and over again. Don’t be a pussy and run away. I asked you this a hundred times. But you want to run away. Stop being a bitch.

  30. @vicjags :A hypocrite you are; i think you did not forget it was you who came here claiming that “CHRIST IS THE ONLY WAY TO SALVATION” so in essence you were having your way with the superiority complex & when responded to , you play coy by saying
    Mr. Ankur, the perfect Vedic Hindu considers it to be his compassion that I’m even able to hear from him!!!! … Well to the satisfaction of Ankur, let an ignorant Christian like me take a bow and ignore him.. He can glorify and follow the vedic system that gave him the “compassion” to let people like me know that his ways are superior than mine.. Wow, how compassionate Vedic religion and Vedantins are, that they are able to humiliate my Holy spirit experiences and also being compassionate enough to show me the light of Vedas !!! and then compare the Vedic Knowledge system to the white man’s burden philosophy
    You are repulsively pathetic and to be totally ignored.

    • let’s see who has malicious intentions and /or is confused.
      1)here is your first claim
      (__http://agniveer.com/rama-myth-or-hero/#comment-25304)
      of “Jesus salvation” to which you never paid heed since then almost a month(were noticed around 17 Oct on the forum) has passed and now you find the escapist route by shamelessly and sarcastically blaming it on my “compassion”

      The topic “Christ is the only way to salvation” is something which we agreed on for debate.. After listening to your “Compassion”, I’m not even going to engage you on the debate…

      2) Then came your allegation about the flawed concept of Karma which i responded here

      (__http://agniveer.com/rama-myth-or-hero/#comment-26199)

      And you were well acknowledged the points and promised a response soon enough (which never came), then you continued in other directions.

      3) it’s Ironic that you are pissed off about my debating methodology, then only thing i did was gave you a taste of your own medicine by showing how one cannot have a sensible debate to prove the validity and rationale of one’s belief system by not subscribing to one Agenda/topic to One debate with an individual (in this case me) and that i have clearly mentioned that here long ago.

      (__http://agniveer.com/rama-myth-or-hero/#comment-26124)

      We have to know what we are debating to begin with.

      I think you ASSUMED that you are debating me on a context of your choice, I ONLY responded to tit bits of your posts which i could breeze through, (guess i don’t have the luxury of time as you seem to have) as you did not put forward and agree upon the topic of debate with ME, which I had implied and asked for in the said link in point 3.

      4) Then came your purpose of being here which you pronounced here

      (__http://agniveer.com/rama-myth-or-hero/#comment-26774)

      “TO REQUEST/FORCE AGNIVEER TO EDIT/ DISCLAIM THE REFERENCES THAT HE HAD MADE ON THE SPIRITUAL SIDE OF CHRISTIANITY AND BIBLE IN SOME OF HIS ARTICLES”

      I requested you to prove the validity the actual “spiritual side” of Christianity so that we may see how it is better than the Vedic system and the purpose behind was also mentioned by me

      (XX) That has been the culture of our Lands “shasthrath” and “purva paksha”, if you can logically convince me that your way of belief is Superior to mine the i must accept it , till i find a better one, this is way intelligent and growth(spiritual and material) oriented people ought to approach debates.

      and till now you have not put forward any substantial data or logic behind this “spiritual side” of Christianity which appealed to you so much, all that you have done is made a feeble and uneducated attempt to access the validity of Vedic Hinduism, when you don’t even understand the concepts involved in the Vedic KS , how do you find yourself capable to validate and comment on something when you do not have the understand what its comprised of?(e.g. Point 2)This attitude falls in line with “white man’s burden concept” that you attribute to me because i tried to prove that there is nothing “BETTER/SUPERIOR” in Christianity and it has nothing to offer and its rather deficient , . Rather than proving what is superior in your belief system, you went on counter arguing my statements from an Atheistic, scientific standpoint. Effectively you have not put an ioata of weight in your belief system(Christianity) which proves that its “BETTER/SUPERIOR/LOGICAL” in comparison with the Vedic KS, so in accordance with the statement marked (XX) in this post, what should you do? simple leave your current belief system and either become an atheist/scientologist (out of option as you believe in GOD), then the only option left is accept that Vedic KS is superior to you current belief system or and move your fold, else put forward points precisely why Christianity is better than Vedic belief system{but the precursor to this is you SHOULD necessarily know what are the components and concepts of the Vedic KS}, now if you are sincere seeker only then would you do that , else you would find the EASY way out as your have said , to rephrase in short “its a matter of Choice” , essentially it should be an educated and logical choice and not “JUST a mundane CHOICE”

      5)I see that you also have mastered the art of selective quoting and out of context quoting to portray people in negative light.

      You quote my below words to prove that i am a religious fundamentalist/bigot

      (a) “your confusion arises from your deep ignorance of the Indic values and various Spiritual Knowledge systems otherwise you would not have made such an ignorant and dumb statement.”
      But you very conveniently skip why i said that, let me refresh your transient memory, it was in context of your proclaimed statement

      By explaining how vast majority of the Christians seem to be genuinely accepting Christ only after experiencing his love..
      And i said
      There is no difference between bhakti and this so called love and it was in this context i said that above statement which you have misquoted.
      NOW WHO HAS A HIDDEN AGENDA and MALICIOUS INTENT?

      (b)“The thing that i find most unfortunate is that the understanding that you have of Indic knowledge systems comes from events like these, i find it really sad actually pitiful, to be precise”
      How does it prove that i am a religious bigot, it’s a fact, refer to point 2.
      You further argue
      (__http://agniveer.com/rama-myth-or-hero/#comment-33588)

      Now how can you prove to such an arrogant fool, that you are experiencing only the divine through yogic meditation? Unfortunately you cannot !!, You might talk about allthe nice things that happened to you through these practices but albeit all your personal testimonies, there is no possible way to objectively prove those experiences of yours.?

      Then somewhere in your posts you claim

      Unlike what Ankur believes, your Rishis and seers might have all followed the same methodology believing the experience they have is divine, but in truth the experience might be merely the result of brain activity in alternate state of consciousness.. Just because these experiences provide you a temporary state of bliss whereby you seem to be relieved from day to day problems, it doesn’t mean they are divine experiences and you can objectively proclaim ishwar is contacting you..

      p.s. i did not even claim about Ishwar contacting anyone.
      do you see how you contradict yourself ? The irony is that i have point out these things to you & you claim that you have made a laughing stock of my arguments, how brilliant and genius of you

      (c)“Had you ever found time from these childish ways of interpreting spirituality (i guess you get it from your Sundays)”

      I don’t see it as a comment on a religion, its rather a comment on your personal abilities and spiritual exposure, maybe the Sundays part was a prejudice but the emphasis was on your “interpreting” ability.

      (d) “INDIC KS VALUES HAVING MADE US COMPASSIONATE ENOUGH TO LET PEOPLE LIKE YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE SUPERIOR,LOGICAL AND EFFICIENT WAYS TO SPIRITUALITY”
      yes , this is in line with the statement marked (XX)

      (e)“WELL AT THE END OF IT AS IS HAS SAID THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO STILL HAVE TO RISE FROM THE DEEPEST, DARKEST PITS FULL OF CONFUSION AND UNCERTAINTY TO THE PINNACLE OF SPIRITUALITY AKA VEDAS AND INDIC KS”

      yes, i have the right to claim that ( in line with the statement marked (XX) ) unless you put forward what better Christianity has to offer, or else don’t crib and show your resentment for me.

      AGAIN, The problem here is your TOTAL IGNORANCE (half baked knowledge added with your narcissism plus the assumption that you know all) and UNEDUCATED approach to Vedic Hinduism, you simply refuse to do your homework and come back with the +es and -ve of your belief system Christianity and that of Vedic KS , so that I also get to see what you really fell for in Christianity and shunned the Vedic KS, rather chose Christianity over Vedic KS, and at the same time you claim to be at your wits end.. just because i don’t see the logic in your choice of Christianity over vedic KS ,how ironic.
      SUGGESTION/METHODOLOGY FOR DEBATE: If you want to have a debate on the validity of Vedic KS vs Christianity then please say so and will start a new thread for the same. But for that you NEED to have the understanding of the concepts to re- iterate and we are bound by the statement (XX)
      Here is what is needed, I need your understanding and essence/relevance (in your words) of the below concepts of Hinduism, to start with
      1) what is Atma and what is the difference between Atam and the Christian concept of Soul
      2) what is Jiva
      3) what is Sharira
      4) what is parkruti
      5) what is Ishwar
      4) what is Prana
      5) what is Moksha
      6) what is bhakti
      7) what is samadhi
      8) Ashtang yoga with its individual parameters

      • @Vicjags : Its a request to you do go through the post and not just skim over , after all its a matter of 5-10 mins, do ignore my compassion and humility, i hope you have a big kind and forgiving heart, in line with respected historical character of Jesus Christ.

        Do go step by step, what i have pointed out in the said post

        (*) http://agniveer.com/rama-myth-or-hero/#comment-35791

        Looks like you are trying to accuse me of insulting experiences of Hindus so as to make me your partner in crime.

        No i am not, i am only asking you to defend claims that you made on this form w.r.t spiritual side of christainity
        so, go through my post(*) and defend your statements/Claims in the post’s context.

        I’m not here to defend my character, but only my arguments.. So not responding to your allegations, but only interested in your counter arguments..

        yes of course, so again, go through my post (*) and defend your statements/Claims in the post’s context.

        Also put across the same complaint that I’ave given any arguments to showChristianity is logically valid..

        I did not say that, for a change you are mis- representing me. I said that argue how christianity is logically superior to Vedic KS, so that you prove to yourself and educate others in the validity of the choice of your faith. Besides you did come trumpeting in this forum that christianity is the ONLY way.
        so go through my post(*) and respond in the Post’s context.

        Well once we are done with your response to my post (marked by *)(in its context as you educated me that debate is arguments and counter arguments , so why not we start from the beginning of your first arguements and then move to the later ones.[ moot ones.]) Till then we will not go in any other tangential direction/topics

      • Namaste Ankur,

        Excellent point, “Here is what is needed, I need your understanding and essence/relevance (in your words) of the below concepts of Hinduism, to start with 1) what is Atma and what is the difference between Atam and the Christian concept of Soul 2) what is Jiva 3) what is Sharira 4) what is parkruti 5) what is Ishwar 4) what is Prana 5) what is Moksha 6) what is bhakti 7) what is samadhi 8) Ashtang yoga with its individual parameters”

        I don’t think this guy even understand the common Dharmic ideas. As I said before he doesn’t even understand history centrism or geographic centrism. He is basing a lot of his bullshit on misunderstandings of the Vedic system.

      • Nobody can be saved by Karma. For it is written that “Everybody has sinned and have fallen short of God’s glory”. You can’t buy the Living God by your Karmas as you buy your deaf and dumb idols. It is written: “The wages of sin is death”. It is also written Numbers: “God is not a man that He should lie”. There will be a judgement day for all creation. For sin entered this world thru one man, Adam and death came with it. As sin gets its power from the law (Word of God), the sting of death is coming thru sin (disobedience to the Word of God). AND, God exacts punishment. Each and every judgments of His are righteous. So, it is written in John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His One and only Son (Yeshua Ha Mashiach), that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.” God’s grace is free, she came with her brother Faith (Yeshua, the substance of this creation) as a free gift from the Father God Almighty. In the realms of spirituality, the substance of your faith is blinded by your brain-trained vedas, which has no historical or archeological ground. And you say, seeing is believing, but God says believing (in the word of God) is seeing. For no man can see God and live (Exodus 3). For no man can withstand the power of His glory and no flesh can survive His presence as He wraps Himself in a consuming fire, thunder, lightening and pestilence goes before Him. He is the Living God of Abraham, God of Isaac and God of Jacob, YWHW (I am who I am) is His Name.

      • @ Krishnarao : Pranam KrishnaRao,Brother, the point that we must understand is that our own brothers are uneducated and ignorant about own vedic heritage and that’s why they stand against it today and its nothing but sad, at the same time we as the torch bearers should never falter from the Dharma and keep strong in our foundations the Veda in principle and practice. There is no theistic faith present that can Challenge and defeat the Vedic dharma on the basis of values and the understanding of the divine.Our prerogative is to enrich our own selves and educated others in the quest for the truth so that we stand as an insurmountable mountain in the path of A-dharma and ignorance.We must make sure that these people (most probably paid by the evangelists) on account of there good western education are not able to resort to plagiarism and claim our vedic values to spread their hidden and malicious intents by misleading our people by misinterpreting and misquoting our values, this is what these evangelists have been doing all the way by creating a divide based any possible & stupid reason like language, color etc They had racial bias in their own psyche and what they had done in rest of the world they assumed and implemented the same in our Lands.they subjugated,tormented the Negros,carried out their genocide in the west (in the name of Christianity and jesus christ )and made sure to fit our culture in the same paradigm.The people who divided,ransacked their lands based on color,race etc are making all efforts possible to divide Bharat and blame it on the varna system which is originally based on merit.(though it is degenerated to the birth based system today).
        We have to go back to the vedas. Agniveer has done a stupendous job in proving a portal for the same and hope soon we will have an authentic version of all the vedas in English (yajur being available), so that the light of the vedas dispels all the darkness that has engulfed this country in the name of various religions.ITS HIGH TIME WE UNITE as ONE based on the values of the Vedas as Brothers and Sisters.
        Om.

    • you seem to be defending christianity but then other posts you seem to be athiest what are you exactly there are many christians like yourself who believe claim to be athiest but defend christianity?

    • Do U know what Holy Spirit is??? This was written over 4000 years ago.

      Proverbs 30:4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of His hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in His cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His Name, and the Name of His Son? Tell me if you know!

    • I’m sorry mac, but it is you who have come on here and insulted and brought evil and false trash here. I was sharing a genuine and pure experience I had, and you can’t handle it. I’m sorry, but I actually don’t believe that Jesus asked us to worship him. I normally don’t share that dream, but I thought I do because it was something my Dharmic people should know and hear. Jesus was not the son of god or any of that nonsense. He was just a man that was following Vedic Dharam and it was the roman empire that corrupted his message for personal power. Jesus was just like buddha and Krishna was promoting Vedic Dharam. Watch the video I put up. It talks about the lost gospels that you christians missionaries refuse to look at with a open mind and pure heart. Stop being such a blind faith moron.

      • I have read all those gospels, apocrypha, deutro-apocrypha, psuedo-apocrypha books, some of which you may not even have heard their names. This is the reason why these books are not included in the canon of 66 books of bible because they are unauthentic and lacks appropriate proofs. Its research DO NOT find proper internal evidence, external evidence, archeological and historical proofs before it can be canonized. Also, I have read the earlier historical books written and maintained by the ancestors of Moses, who wrote the Torah (first 5 books of the bible) wherein he refers those ancestral historical books. These books gives dates from Adam’s time.

        Four Gospel writers were all jews and Jesus gave the Gospel to jews before it was spread all over the world by His 12 apostels. Gospel also came to south India thru apostel Thomas few decades after Jesus’ resurrection. Jesus accepted praise and worship. Even the demons cried out that you are the Son of God, we know you. Only God can forgive sins and Jesus forgived the sins of people and they were instantly healed. The whole reason why jews crucified Jesus is that Jesus claimed to be the Living God (I AM or Yah, the hebrew Living God) and it is a blasphemy as per the law, the gravest crime. Even a fool will not knowingly lie, if he knows that his lies would bring him death. Yeshua was identical with His message, whereas none of the other faith gods were identical with there message. His Sermon on the Mount is considered as the greatest teachings of morality ever uttered by human lips. He taught freedom, equal rights, humanity, love and peace the principles of democracy. It is written:

        Hebrews 1:6 And again, when God brings His firstbegotten Son (means called forth) into the world, He says, “Let all God’s angels worship Him.”

        God wants not just the humans, but even the angels to worship His begotton Son. Lord God Almighty Himself addresses His Son Yeshua as “O God”.

        Psalm 4:6 Psalm of David. “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of Your kingdom.”

        Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son He (God) says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of Your kingdom.

        Hebrews 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, Your God, has set You above Your companions by anointing You with the oil of joy.”

        Yeshua was exalted when He entered the Holiest of the Holy in the most high heavens with His own blood as a sin offering before God Almighty. So, it is written:

        Psalm 110:1 Of David. A psalm. The LORD (God Almighty) says to my Lord (Yeshua): “Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”

        Matthew 22:44 “‘The LORD said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.”‘

        Mark 14:62 “I AM,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

        Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His Being, sustaining all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

        Mark 16:19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was taken up into heaven and He sat at the right hand of God.

  31. @vicjags : The only thing that forced me to respond to you is that you mentioned me by name in your post, i thought you would stop that since we decided to do that. Guess you are hard at understanding a simple request. Besides if i have/had digressed from the topic and your objective of being here there is no need to mention me by name and what i discussed.
    I don’t find it interesting to read long and boring interpretation of things that can be concisely conveyed. I only responded to what i found was worth responding to.
    You contradict yourself so many times that it’s confusing to pick only one for eg.
    First you go on saying that your personal subjective spiritual experiences with Christ as divine and no two can be proved to be same then you counter my standpoint of objective exp. by saying
    People often enter into alternate states of consciousness during Hypnosis, and neo-freudian psychodynamic studies that they even report of vivid experiences with the super-natural.. and so on with alcohol etc
    you forget that the same applied to your own experience.
    Now that you know really KNOW what i was talking about when i talked about objective experiences, as you have drawn the conclusion in a few hours can you tell me what exactly i was talking about and how is different or same from the So called documented “CHRIST” experiences or your own exp., we can start from there.Dont Beat around the bush.
    BTW what did you subjective experiences with christ make you feel, relaxed, happy , secure or made you forget your day to day problems ?

    so now please when did i say that the objective experiences mean that Ishwar is trying to contact the subject having the experience? guess it is your habit to paint the world in your said “Christian worldview” with is so miserably narrow, where divine is some 1 sitting in heaven and will have to save your sorry state of existence from going to hell, and the purpose of human life is to reach a place called heaven which is foolishly and absurdly eternal.

    so now if i am going to continue first we need to have purva paksha in place for you w.r.t Hinduism
    Here is what is needed, I need your understanding and essence/relevance(in your words) of the below concepts of Hinduism, to start with

    1) what is Atma and what is the difference between Atam and the Christian concept of Soul
    2) what is Jiva
    3) what is Sharira
    4) what is parkruti
    5) what is Ishwar
    4) what is Prana
    5) what is Moksha
    6) what is bhakti
    7) what is samadhi
    8) Ashtang yoga with its individual parameters

    Only if i am satisfied with you understanding i will decide to respond to you and your posts with precise question w.r.t the concepts of Vedic KS and nothing Else.

    • @Ankur
      1) what is Atma and what is the difference between Atam and the Christian concept of Soul
      Atma is the Spirit or Ruah and Soul is its covering means body. Nowadays, the word Soul is used interchangeably with Spirit.

      2) what is Jiva
      Jiva is the life force which is given by the breath. You can say electrical impulse which runs various systems in our body. No oxygen to the brain, it stops and you are clinically dead. God breathed two things into the nostrils of the man (Adam) He created from the dust. God breathed both life and spirit into the nostrils of Adam. So when one leaves the second will also leave. The impulse of breath is controlled by the Spirit/Atma. Breath is just air/wind rather oxygen.

      3) what is Sharira
      Soul or Body, which was made from dust according to Christianity. Dust to dust and ashes to ashes.

      4) what is parkruti
      Nature, all physical nature of creation. Christianity believes, it was all made from water.

      5) what is Ishwar
      It simply means Lord.

      4) what is Prana
      Prana is nothing but breath, which sustains the body. The philosophy of sustaining the universe is simply stupid. Pranayam is the exercise of breathing.

      5) what is Moksha
      Is the philosophy of going thru billions of life forms and after zillions of years, you may suceed in liberating your Atam from the life cycle. There are zillions of life forms trapped into this life cycle. Christianity believes in eternal Salvation from sin in this God given life. As you know the dead know nothing. All hope is good until you are alive, then they all go to the same place of rest and rest until the great day of judgement.

      6) what is bhakti
      It is worship of god-idols or images invoking them doing vedic rituals and chanting (repeating) the same slokas or words again and again. In christianity we worship in spirit and truth to the unseen God, the Creator because God is a Spirit. We do not chant for out of the 10 commandments of God, one command clearly states.

      Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the Name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh His Name in vain.

      The Living God of Abraham neither sleeps nor slumber since creation. His Name is Holy Holy Holy. The praise and worship should be spelt 3 times for it to reach God Almighty in the 3rd heaven.

      7) what is samadhi
      Meditating doing yoga and a condition in which to forget all 5 sense called dyana and in chinese it is called Zen condition. It is blackening your mind while you are awake, which is stupid as it sounds. ONLY Adam and Eve had that kind of minds because both of their minds, small and big were connected. They didnt had that thing which divides two human brains. They were able to talk to the angels directly in heavens until their fall and it was taken away from them, the SIXTH sense. Also, the glory which surrounded them was also taken away.

      8) Ashtang yoga with its individual parameters
      I am not interest to do yoga although I agree it is a good exercise for the body, mind and internal organs.

      The word Hindu was coined by invading Moghuls who wanted to separate from the Indic people of Indus valley civilization. Hinduism is the way of life NOT a vedic religion which the RSS guys coined some 60 years ago. All born in Hindustan is a Hindu. They were know by different peoples as Indu, Indi, Hudo, Hudas, Hindi, Hindu and lately Brits coined the word Indian. This is nothing but phonetic equivalents in different languages and dialects. When you say that Hinduism is a vedic religion, you are simply HIJACKING other Indians’ citizenship like us, who are from different belief systems.

      • @mac: before we decide upon the debate conditions and take things to task, if i find its worth it,
        I would like to know, as you explained sharira=body=soul, do animals have this soul?

      • Yes, animals do have Spirit (Atma). But, I do not know whether their spirits go up or down when they pass away. Again, soul is the covering of the Atma. Well, when Adam and Eve were there with the animals in the Garden of Eden, they all spoke a common language. Animals were made dumb because they didnt stopped Adam and Eve from sinning, I mean the original sin because of which we are suffering now. Satan came in the form of a serpant and seduced Eve. So God cursed Satan and said: You will crawl on your belly and eat dust…….. Only amongst the land animals, serpants are the most cursed and they are the only animals who crawl on their belly. It is a curse. Satan is the great serpant, Shiva’s symbol. So also women are always attracted to dark snake like things. It arouses sexual desires in them, and it is evil, so was woman cursed with birthpain.

        I DO NOT debate. When you say debate, it looks like fighting. I am not here to fight. I am here to share, discuss and discourse the knowledge and wisdom of our one Living God. For debates, you can debate with vicjacs. He debates good.

      • @Mac : Dont worry i know that you can’t debate ; you dont even know christiant belife system which is clearly visibile where christian concept of soul is not Applicable to anyone except humans i.e. Animals “DO NOT” have Souls. and soul is not body as you say , so the question of debate does not arise.
        I will rather avoid going on an educations spree with you because then i will have to teach you both Christianity and vedic KS and Islam if you venture there.

        Besides as SDC righly said you dont even deserve a response on account of your great knowledge, i cant stand the glitter of your knowledge.
        and BTW did i ask for the etymology of “Hindu” everyone here knows it was conined by outsiders, so thanks but no thanks.
        N.B. All the defintions that you have given are not wrong but a total blunder. i stop at that.

      • Ignorance is a bliss for you and blunt denial is a trait of blindfaith. I can quote events from the bible wherein the animals are talking to human beings. But, you are not worth it. Only God can remove the curtain of blindfaith from your eyes.

      • Distortion and misrepresentation is the new bliss, and you are blessed, Mac. You sound more like the Muslims to me who very often blurt out that Allah has put a seal on the hearts of infidels.

  32. @Vicjags :Alas !!
    Now if you are saying that the love of Christ is that altered your choice, the onus lies on you to disprove my statement that there is in fact difference between the indigenous Indic bhakti bhav marg and love of jesus or XYZ, I am claiming they are same except for the object(mental IDOL or physical IDOL). I think your confusion arises from your deep ignorance of the Indic values and various Spiritual Knowledge systems otherwise you would not have made such an ignorant and dumb statement.

    The whole lot of mumbo jumbo that you have written about science being based empiricism (the way you have analyzed/criticized it) is appallingly amusing and pathetically flawed.

    if sufficient number of people have a sensory “experience” of the same phenomenon (after following steps laid out as a premise of the phenomenon to happen)under normal state of human existence .. Then there you go you have a scientifically validated phenomenon. So the plethora of words used, as usual, gone out of the window. A waste of reading time.

    This is exactly the mistake which Ankur here and many other Hindus so often make.. Though you people put it in more decent language, your line of argument in questioning the uniqueness of experiences of another man is no way different from my schoolmate who believed all that meditation does is help you imagine porn..
    and you continue..

    The thing that i find most unfortunate is that the understanding that you have of Indic knowledge systems comes from events like these, i find it really sad actually pitiful, to be precise
    Had you ever found time from these childish ways of interpreting spirituality (i guess you get it from your Sundays) and spent some sincere and quality time in researching yog sutras and vast number of other text in indic knowledge system cannon like Kashmir Shaivism , shiv sutras and so on , you would have come to know that the subjective experiences that you very vehemently claim are personal and individual are in fact not so.. there are documented methods of achieving a particular spiritual experience , but the difference between the empiricism of science and the INDIC “spiritual sciences” is that in the former you can have results that can be related to physical world but the latter depends on the corroboration of the subjects undergone the methodology (kriya, mental, physical and psychological as documented).

    ya you are right that everyone has the right to follow what they want but as we are humans and indic KS values having made us compassionate enough to let people like you know that there are SUPERIOR,LOGICAL and EFFICIENT ways to spirituality , but yes of course they entail dedicated hard work at the inner levels ,not as easy as going to a gathering and distributing pamphlets and confusing people with something that is not even objective. Well at the end of it as is has said there are people who still have to rise from the deepest, darkest pits full of confusion and uncertainty to the pinnacle of spirituality aka Vedas and Indic KS.
    love of jesus!, i know it would be very difficult for your to let go of something that has given you a transitory spiritual experience, in the wake your ignorance of the “spiritual sciences” and the understanding of the MIND/MANA.
    May you find peace!

  33. To: All Hindus ,

    I get this is an Hindus’ website.

    I have some serious questions that I often pose to religious persons. But unfortunately people don’t give satisfactory answers.

    How do you know if your God is the true God?
    How do you know if your religion is the true religion?
    Have you ever thought your religion maybe a false religion?
    What is unique in your religious book that force you to believe in it?
    Why do you choose to believe in Hinduism as there are so many religions?

    Can anyone address to all my questions?

    • To: Islam ,

      I have some serious questions that I often pose to religious persons. But unfortunately people don’t give satisfactory answers.

      How do you know if your God is the true God?
      How do you know if your religion is the true religion?
      Have you ever thought your religion maybe a false religion?
      What is unique in Quran that force you to believe in it?
      Why do you choose to believe in Islam as there are so many religions?

      Can you address to all my questions?

  34. hey u fool peoples…..SHREE RAM is only a god not a national hero…..he is a avtar of god…that menas he is nt a ordinary people like us…he is a ultimate & only one……..KRISHNA AND RAMA,VISHNU AND SHIV,BRAMHA ALL ARE SAME..NTHING DIFFERENCE IN THEM…THEY ARE ONLY ONE….

  35. Agniveer good work.. You have really put light on Ram’s birth and his life and proofs of Lord Ram was worshiped around the world. Agniveer, I am doing a research on World Scripts. Please listen it carefully, In which I can prove that Sanskrit’s Script is the mother of all Scripts. I have also proved how Greek God ZEUS (Lord of Heaven) comes from INDRA (Lord of Heaven. In short, I can give clue to Greek’s Helen Religion (Base of Western Philosophy) has its roots from India’s Vedic Religion. Also, to some extend I can even question Alexander Invasion of India to be completely wrong, but this was just an Indian King who was named Alexander in Greek. I can bridge a gap of 6000 years between India and Greece civilization. Further moving I can prove that Omega on Bibble comes from word Om – Eka, similar concept of Ekas Omkar in Sikhism.

    This is a result of my deep meditation and Arya Samajic myths which are true. After all history should researched based on Myths. Further in my next research I have proved that Indo-Greek Kingdoms were nothing but Indian Kingdoms. Also, India’s rule over Greece. All this just from paper work.

    For showing all this to World frankly I don’t have neither guts nor I have enough resources. I decided to make a book of it in Kindle Store. But, my family is not supporting it. They say one should not comment on other country’s script. Please help me as what should I do. Contact me at [email protected]. Waiting for your reply. Thanks in advance.

    • @Vicjags: Pardon me, but i would like to know what is that you are here for
      a) proving your reasoning prowess?
      b) proving that Salvation through Christ is the only way
      http://agniveer.com/rama-myth-or-hero/#comment-25304
      Christian concept of God and salvation through Christ. I will show why it’s reasonable to believe that Christ can be the only way to salvation.
      c) finding faults/lacuna in the Vedic belief system
      d) debating the concept of GOD
      e) debating the existence of GOD
      f) evaluation of the validity and soundness of various theist systems
      g) confusion about what is right and/or soul searching ?
      h) killing time

      • Looks like Mac’s butt buddy, and ulterior persona is back. Seems like he preaching some of the most sickest shit again. Wow, this guy needs to take a cold bath, LOL

      • “If you are OK with accepting Christ based on my experiences then even I’m more than willing to talk about the miracles that I’ave experienced and the impossible faith healings that my family members have seen by the work of the Holy Spirit..

        So to say again..This is my purpose here

        “TO REQUEST/FORCE AGNIVEER TO EDIT/ DISCLAIM THE REFERENCES THAT HE HAD MADE ON THE SPIRITUAL SIDE OF CHRISTIANITY AND BIBLE IN SOME OF HIS ARTICLES””

        He does not want Agniveer to say anything about Christianity. But he wants to proselytize and use these Agniveer threads to convert Hindus to Christianity.

      • @VicJags : Dear friend All your thought out-pour between the IN BOLD reason is no where in logical coherence with the same IN BOLD reason.
        lets See:

        By explaining how vast majority of the Christians seem to be genuinely accepting Christ only after experiencing his love..
        How did you explain that its Christ’s his love and not their own GUIDED devotion, Its not something new in the Indian subcontinent, for your information, if you are not fully endowed with western gaze yet, the Bhakti yog ORIGINATED in india, since times before the example of prahalad.
        so there is nothing concrete and unique about Christs love here

        if your Hindu villagers are falling for 2 kg rice why should only the missionaries take the blame.. This may happen due to lack of knowledge of true Hinduism, but still that’s your responsibility to go and teach them
        you are right here that it is our responsibility. and Agniveer articles are an effort towards the same.At the same time proselytizing by showing the Vedic and Hindu dharma in negative light and using obscure ways like
        a) Jesus Christ temples that has arti , and he shown seated on peacocks and standing like Krishna
        b) christianization of bharat natyam, christian mudras in indic dances,
        c) claims that Sanskrit was developed by Christians and Tamils were actually Christians and rishi thiruvalluvar was a christian saint teaching gospel
        d) vedic literature is nothing but prehistoric and unscientific text of uncivilized Aryans
        and loads of other things like that ( you need to learn a lot if you don’t know any of this) do not show missionaries in the very good light.well this being out of scope, will not take it further.

        .. Christian worldview….
        you must Understand Maryada Purushottam Ram is not a bed Rock of Vedic knowledge, he was just an outcome… so even if today Shri Ram’s memory is wiped out of every vedic Hindu it would not bring any change in the outlook of a vedic person.
        and as you say At the same time even if I’m not able to convincingly prove my claim that doesn’t mean Hinduism or Agniveer wins by default.
        so by refuting or finding fallacy in an individuals argument of how he/she proves that an individual was known or revered worldwide does not provide any support for Christianity as such or your arguments either.

        …assessing the validity of Hinduism..
        It should be clear to you that this site is for Vedic ideology and not for contemporary belief system that is called Hinduism, which is a deranged offshoot of vedic knowledge systems.
        you don’t have to wait for agniveer to respond to the issues that you have in theological and philosophical arenas , you can post them here and you will have your answers, but till now of all the time you have spend here , we did not come across any such burning question form you.

        .. speaking I simply don’t have to debate or defend Christianity here…
        You are very welcome to question the vedic knowledge systems, but one should be true to ones self and not do such under a hidden pretext or hidden agendas or being in a self defensive mode.
        That has been the culture of our Lands “shasthrath” and “purva paksha”, if you you can logically convince me that your way of belief is Superior to mine the i must accept it , till i find a better one, this is way intelligent and growth(spiritual and material) oriented people ought to approach debates.

        If we can’t come into any conclusion even about which is more reasonable, then the debate on one true religion will continue as it had done all through history..
        exactly there have always been people who are on the path of spiritual evolution from lower realms to the highest pinnacle.

        Though I do enjoy debating, I’m totally against any kind of religious debates.. I think it will lead to more friction than friendship..
        This is TOTALLY WRONG and is a western way of thought.. if i don’t agree with YOUR THOUGHTS(don’t read it as YOU) it does not mean that i hate you or want you out of my way ..
        “shasthrath” and “purva paksha” have been the way of life and spiritual evolution of the people of this land, though now its very less prevalent as is visible in your influenced western way of thought,

        If you are OK with accepting Christ based on my experiences then even I’m more than willing to talk about the miracles that I’ave experienced and the impossible faith healing that my family members have seen by the work of the Holy Spirit..

        Ironically This remind me of a 75 yr old Catholic Dutch close friend of mine who lives now in India, who is a staunch believer in “Sai baba” 🙂 and to quote him verbatim “how can i deny the spiritual experience that I personally had with HIM”
        The point here being is that people have always through out history been having “EXPERIENCES” to which they get stuck and never rise above that individual experience, entire faiths have been build of a particular individuals personal experiences. ITS only the vedic way of life which says that these experiences are dormant in every human being. and they unfold as and when one proceeds further and further on the spiritual path, they have nothing to do with a external person that can influence these experiences, its only the individuals knowledge of that can open the doors to the yet unknown.Every individuals has to find his own way IN. no one else can do that for you.

        BTW if i were you(and was really convinced that Christ is the way to go , after having a detailed comparative study of vedic KS) i would spend more time in framing my argument in support of the hypothesis for christianity spiritual side , so that we can see what exactly Christianity has to offer, that the vedic belief and knowledge systems do not have a logical,superior and refined alternative to.

        Om Shanti.

      • Nice job Ankur,

        You explained it very well. The point is people like vicjags want to spread rumors or regurgitating rumors some clever and not so clever missionary or Western imperialist came up with. Lot of the theories that vicjags stated came right out of some of the most racist people on this earth. It’s pretty sad that this guy now considers himself to come form a culture that is sub-western. At least now, many of us can fight back, but there is still much work to be done. These myths will still persist until we dispel them. And more important, we need to present what we really are. Thanks to Agniveer, the work has already started.

        And vicjags still has not gotten that basic idea about history centrism. I wrote about it a coupe of times. We believe in embodied know, so there is no need for historical characters. We don’t depend on them. Unlike his religion, which does. Makes it unDharmic or some would says Adharma.

        Omkar,
        Krishna

    • Ll visitors are very humbly requested to please send your address on tis no to receive your free bookaboo on spirituality in Hindi. 9992600804 thnx

    • If you could appreciate the myths and fairy tales of the Bible being propagated by the “Christian scientists” as worthy of consideration, I am sure you could find pearls of wisdom in his research too only if you do not maintain double standards in this regard.

    • The world was into idolatry, local demon worship, ancestor worship, fallen angel worship and satan worship, UNTIL Jesus came. He never traveled a 100 miles in His life time, never had a teacher, never went to school, but the Rabbis (teachers of law) called Him a Rabbi (teacher of the law). In 3 years, He turned the world upside down. He is the only Son of God, the God in flesh, the exact image of God, the Father Almighty mankind knows. For nobody has seen Father God Almighty except the Son who comes from the Father . Your linguisticity is very poor, Om and Omega has no relationship. His Name is I AM or Yah or in full YWHW means “I AM WHO I AM”. It is His “ego emmi”, you are not supposed to ask Me, I created you, you didnt created Me. He is a Nameless God and Yahweh is His Name, besides Him there is no other Living God. Arya Ram-Anna and Warad-Sin (Bharat-varsh equivalent in Hindi of Persian language) his brother are well recorded in the world history of Persia. Even Cyrus the great and Darius the great claimed Arya Ram-Anna as their ancestor who ruled for 60 years as it is written in Bharata Jhataka. As I said, you are too poor in relating it linguistically. All the linguists of the world agree with what I have pointed above. You are still into your vedic brahmanic brain-trained idolatry. Indian history starts from Chandragupta I, until then there were small tribes spread over north west India. There was no city or urbanization then and all your 4 fake vedas are mythical poetries of Persian history (Indus valley civilization), hardly near truth. Vedic corruption is prevalent in idolatry and you twist history as it suffice your whims and blindfaith. It is still going on.

      • jesus was a born a jew who didnt do ancestal worship,demon worship etc and jesus aws not god he never said he was the god to be worshippedand he was also a false jewish messiah according to jews and india and china have some oldest histories in the world the only other comparable to india are egypt and mesmotompia all other civilisations started from or after india you can use your christian missionary ways to attack beliefs just to get converts but if you were honest you would know the abrahamic beliefs are nothing compared to eastern beliefs

      • QUOTE
        but if you were honest you would know the abrahamic beliefs are nothing compared to eastern beliefs
        UNQUOTE

        Israel is the naval of this world (the Middle-east), where the entrance to the Garden of Eden was there and where all the patriarchs and matriarchs of the Faith are laid in the cave of Machpelah, Hebron, Israel except Moses and Rachel. You can Google and see for yourself, it is a historical place. History of mankind started from here. As far as Indian history is concerned, we know that it started from Chandragupta I, which in layman’s term is a recent history. In Chandragupta I’s period urbanization started in India little by little over a 1000 years. Before that nothing is on record, but a fake vedic blind-faith which do not belong to Indus valley civilization neither are there artifacts found which would trace any vedic history or its myths. Now this is world history we all agree with.

        For the rest of the answers of your comment, just check on my other comments. They are answered.

  36. @Vicjags : i felt that only your atheist personification is worth responding

    As per Sanatan Dharma, there are the minimum and non-excusable ten attributes of “Dharma” (which is not Religion as we understand in the west, by any way) and everything else revolves around them.

    “Dhrati Kshama Damah Asteyam Shoucham indriya nigrahah Dhi vidya satyam akrodh dashakam dharma lakshanam”

    1.Dhrati-Fortitude is reflected in the form of courage and strength when facing pains or troubles in life. It means the patience which is exhibited by a person even in case of difficulties of life.

    2.Kshama-means ability to forgive and give another chance to righteousness. Forgiveness is not an attribute of a weak but only a spiritually strong, composed and broadminded person can forgive even his enemies for their misdeeds. People who are slaves of their own emotions and mood swings can never exhibit such an attribute and are unable to forgive (fundamental Islam, Christianity and nowadays astray Hindus)

    3.Damah-Control over mind and desires. All the decisions in life of a person should not be governed by his uncontrolled desires but should be taken by stable mind unaffected from worldly sensational cravings and emotions of attachment and fear.

    4.Asteyam-Non stealing exhibited by the attributes like honesty and integrity. The person should believe in taking the ownership of only those things, which are earned by hard work and labor.

    5.Shouch-Purity: indicates internal and as well as external purity. The person should not only take care of his body and surroundings for cleanliness but also should try to make his mind pure without any negative emotions, desires and attachments.

    6. Indriya Nigrah-Control of sensory organs: Every human being perceives this world by five senses (indriya) given by GOD, which are Ears, Skin, Eyes, Tongue and Nose. Man perceives Shabd, Sparsh, Roop , Rasa, Gandh (Sound, Touch, Form, Taste and Smell) by the help of these sensory organs respectively. Control of all these senses and not allowing negative stimuli to make an impression in the grooves of the mind is called Indriya Nigrah (Sense Control). This art is also called Mind Control. Scriptures prescribes various methods/yoga to achieve this. Meditation is one among those methods.

    7. Dhi-Wisdom: indicates the power to discriminate between right and wrong. This helps a person while adhering to his Dharma and he is able to analyses and identify the right path to proceed irrespective of the difficulties in his way and temptations to take an easier but wrong path.

    8. Vidya-Knowledge:refers to the education as well as the practical knowledge about laws of life. The knowledge should always be crowned with humility. A person who is down to earth with humility is a real knowledgeable person.

    9. Satyam-Truthfulness: The essence of life is seeking the truth and following the path of truthfulness. It not only helps a person in living a peaceful life but also acts as a strong spiritual Armour providing strength to the person in most difficult situations of life.

    10. Akrodho-Absence of futile and unjust anger: Which means the person is not angered and remain composed and in control of his senses in-spite of all the provocations.

    No matter where a human is placed on the planet if he/she exhibits all these 10 traits, if all of us follow the above we WILL achieve the egalitarian society that you talk about, as you rightly asset Only when you leave behind superstitions and take control of your own life, true human progress can be achieved and this is exactly what Veda talks about “None except you are responsible for your actions and its consequence(s)”.

    Such an arrogance did it show by revealing the divinely inspired Vedas only to brown men
    — w.r.t the color, this is a strwman.
    Veda was revealed to rishis as a result of their own spiritual perfections and supremacy,Ishwar did not have to choose anyone.
    only a seed with the right and requisite environment will sprout, it natural;an analogy though not precise.

    if Vedas are the only divinely inspired word of God as many Hindus claim, why did their racist God wait till 21st century to raise a noble man named Agniveer and let the world know of his divine Vedas through him.
    — you are analyzing with the western gaze here . Ishwar did not do anything, its the individual (jiva) that has done it.
    Veda aids a individual with the know-how and exposition of the above 10 traits plus other varied facets of a successful and blissful human life, they may seem straight forward but can be pretty difficult to practice,attributed to human psyche’s intricacies

    There were multiple instances of Indian sages who were initially warmongering kshatrias had an enlightening experience with divine and left their old ways and followed the life of Yogi.. Similarly, If ishwar had willed even Ghazini/Ghori and Aurangazeb would have been sages and Gurus.. It is ishwar’s fault that he discriminated between ancient Rishis with whom he started human civilization and mughal invaders.
    -Thats exactly what veda say, its your own effort that will lead you to its consequence be it good or bad; for the individual or the society, the kshatriyas that you refer made a choice to weigh things at their face value and rest did not (as they were doing the bidding of a book shunting out the point 3 and 6 from the above, mostly all of them were not present.)

    Now the new Hindu breed wants a share of the temple income and thus have taken up the ideals of their 100 yr old saint and have started vigorously preaching against Murti pooja and promoting the “Divine Vedas” as the guide for humanity..

    — The point is whatever the 100 yr old saint said and preached, it is from the Veda , the crux of the matter is that Veda contains knowledge that will lead to humans maximizing their physical and mental potential and thus lead to a blissful and balanced society as a good human who is embodiment of the Dharma can only build such a society , society (samaj) is nothing but a projection of the ideology of the people which comprise it.

    one does not need to follow any book beyond these 10 traits to be precise.But the need arose from the fact the Human consciousness is very intricate and has positive potential that lies dormant and has to be explored and aroused , that’s is the main reason there has been a vast amount of time spent on the inner workings of a human mind (precise mana, chita) so as to achieve a perfect society keeping in mind the 10 traits and how be able to practice them in perfection.
    No doubt there has been lot of dogma in the name of dharma and lot of fooling around initiated by people with their own agenda, but that by no means undermines Dharma and the means to it -The Veda

    Om Shanti.

  37. Its some desparation of our christian brother vicjags that brings him here and put those comments. He will call us homophobe, murderer, liar, silly, fanatic and every other bad word he knew. Why??? because We questioned his faith. I won’t respond to all his comments coz i am not here to satisfy my personal ego by getting into ad hominems like him.

    As a follower of sanatan dharma, i don’t have priviledge to be a homophobe, hate anything for that matter except hatred, its all yours.

    Old Covenant or the Old Law associated with the Old Testament and the leadership of Moses AND New Covenant associated with the New Testament and the leadership of Jesus. Whatever it is, but my point was Chirstian apologists always put that argument to confuse people.

    Here are the full verses & lets examine what it has to say in the end.

    —It says God follows the policy of Non- interference and gives upon them and leaves them to their own ways—-
    But the below verse has different meaning
    1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto VILE AFFECTIONS: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    So here god himself is giving peole vile affections, is it called non-interference? God is some gay making machine in bible.
    1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

    —-IT SIMPLY DOESN’T COMMAND YOU TO KILL THE GAYS…—
    1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without NATURAL AFFECTION, implacable, unmerciful:
    So who are those without natural affection? Homosexuals

    1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
    And what its next verse says? ‘They(it doesn’t specificly say that ‘excluding homosexulas’ which vicjags tried to convey) which commit such things are worthy of death.”

    • The history of the rise of Christianity has everything to do with politics, culture, and human frailties and nothing to do with supernatural manipulation of events. Had divine intervention been the guiding force, surely two millennia after the birth of Jesus he would not have a world where there are more Muslims than Catholics, more Hindus than Protestants, and more nontheists than Catholics and Protestants combined.
      — John K. Naland, “The First Easter”, Free Inquiry magazine, Vol. 8, No. 2

      • @Vicjags

        We all here know about your interpretaion skills. 🙂 Let’s not get into these things.

        It was not only about numbers that i didn’t even intended. The point John Naland was making that Jesus was not some divine dude. Otherwise how come there are so many people on this planet who didn’t follow his path even after 2000years from his birth?

        As far as Vedas are concerned, they scrap the rediculous theory of some God taking birth or sending his son/prophet to save humanity. No DIVINE thing interferes in our activities. So obviously we have to do all the interpretaions/analysis to save ourselves.

      • —This website is different, mostly filled with fools and fundamentalist bigots who cannot tolerate any arguments against their faith… —-

        Look who is talking, one who himself can’t tolerate any arguments against his faith & pursuing Agniveer to put down it comments which he didn’t like.

        Abusing people, calling them charlatans, bigots etc wouldn’t serve the purpose here.

      • —-but the best way these fellows were able to respond was by bringing in atrocities of the medieval church; Goa inquisitions; personal integrity of Francis xavier; British colonialism etc and hence argue Christianity is invalid…—-

        ‘The Bible contains far more verses praising or urging bloodshed than does the Koran, and biblical violence is often far more extreme, and marked by more indiscriminate savagery. The Koran often urges believers to fight, yet it also commands that enemies be shown mercy when they surrender. Some frightful portions of the Bible, by contrast, go much further in ordering the total extermination of enemies, of whole families and races – of men, women, and children, and even their livestock, with no quarter granted.’

        http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

      • Lets see what our self-proclamied rationalist @Vicjags has to say on this….

        Intolerance towards other religions/cults

        “If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall NOT LIVE, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.” (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

        2 Chronicles 15:13
        But that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.

        http://www.openbible.info/topics/apostasy

      • —-Sorry, I’m no idiot to explain to you fellows the difference between thye Old covenant and the New covenant.—

        As if we’re depended on you, smarty pants.

        Everytime i bring those verses, christian apologetics always put this rubbish argument of old testament/convenant vs new.

        Please let us know where the bible talk about new convenant and where it has written in new convenant that we don’t need to follow older one anymore?

        Before putting your argument, remember this: Malachi 3:6 says that God doesn’t change. 😉

        And this one is from New Testament, just in case….

        Romans 1:26-32.(Killing of Gays)
        Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

      • @Vicjags : well then you have personalized version of Christianity(may be its not even Christianity except that your feel a linkage or affinity to Christ and some chosen set of beliefs from the super set,same as million of other people have the similar affinity for x, y and z ), there is no problem with that but it seems the people here are debating and questioning the actual biblical and widely believed-in christian faith.You can defend and stand by your ideology and personal belief system,but at the same time your arguments may not be taken to defend the set of belief system that is known as Christianity.
        There might be people who you do not like due to their so call behavior or perosnal attributes , that is at a individual level but that in no way can be taken as an argument in or against Vedic belief system.
        We have to know what we are debating to begin with.

        some points

        a) it was yagnivalka that used Neti Neti as part of brahadaryanak upnishad.

        b) there is no Aryan or Dravidian Race, the AIT has been debunked by all well know 21 century historians and archeologists, but i don’t know why ONLY INDIANS and still referring to it, there is an article on the same on this very website.

      • You need to keep your “Reply” button, in case somebody wants to answer you. You are talking about Romans 1:26-32.(Killing of Gays). Do you know there were Elamites (Desi/Indians) mixture? Well you dont know that. Let me tell you that Soddom and Gommorah and in total 5 cities which God destroyed with fire, which are now what we call DEAD SEA, it is still there for people like you to visit. He dumped over 60 feet of burning brimstones and sulphur on those cities and it is still there. Do you know that those cities were so bad that even the wild animals and the birds of the air KNEW and never dared to enter those cities. Ajanta Elora caves, very many shiv temples, Khajuraho, it was worst than that. Bestiality, group sex, pedophilry and worst you can imagine was there. If a stranger enters those cities, they have to wait at the public square and anybody would come and pick them up and have sex with them the way they want to. It was so bad and they were into idolatry and local demon worship and they were DESIS, Elamite mixture. This is just for your information motherlover.

      • all the stories in the bible are considered myths by all top most historians even your true biblical scholors agree on this by the way there isnt even good enough evidence to say jesus was a real person but if by chance he did exist he was nothing like what the bible mentions about him

      • Bible and World history matches perfectly well. I have already proved these facts somewhere on this blog. You can Ctrl F and type in my name you will find it. I don’t want to repeat it.

  38. @MAC/Vicjac,

    Thanks for visiting agniveer website and providing your comments.
    Since you guys claim that Christianity is about love and peace then please answer few of my doubt’s
    1. Who wrote bible
    2. Who burned all the documents from the oldes church (which is located in kerala)

    • Bible 66 books are written by 40 prophets over a period of 1600 years starting from Moses. Kerala is a christian state as there are more christians in Kerala. Some of them are real jews who migrated to India during the first destruction of temple of Jerusalem and Apostle Thomas came there after two decades after Jesus ascended to heaven. Christianity didnt developed so much in India then, as Apostle Thomas is called the doubting Thomas. He literally put his finger in the wound of Jesus in His chest, although Jesus appeared to Him in flesh after His resurrection. So, Apostle Thomas performed a miracle talking to about 300 brahmins who were performing sun worship ritual by pouring water to sun god then at the ocean, when he came and rest is history.

  39. When I originally commented I clicked the “Notify me when new comments are added”
    checkbox and now each time a comment is added I get four e-mails with the same comment.
    Is there any way you can remove me from that service?
    Thank you!

  40. So here is the basic breakdown of what happened with Mr. Spanky’s argument, a.k.a. Mac, a.k.a. vicjags. He came on here to try and demonize the Vedic faith and point to some problems. He tried to harpoons us with the argument that Vedic people worship idols and believe in caste system. Once he discovered he did not do proper research on Vedic people, and realized Vedic people are against idol worship and caste system he had to redo his argument. He realized if he keeps using the idol worship argument his people will also fight him on the jesus angle as well because that is idol worship as well. And for people who are totally against idol worship would not worship Krishna as an idol why would they worship jesus as an idol. (It’s funny every christian you talk to, gives you a different status of jesus. It’s like they don’t even know. Sometimes he is god, other times he is only the son of god, but not allowed to be prayed to. It’s like they are ashamed to admit where their jesus stand for them. Because they don’t want to look like idol worshipers. LMAF)

    So his new argument was to create a straw man argument. Basically make an artificial scenario and see if we will bite. Since he can’t get us on the idol worship and caste system argument because Vedic people don’t believe in it; he tells us we are all sinner. In order for this argument to work, he needs to get everyone to believe yes we are all sinners. Sorry, bud, but that won’t work. Because again his argument is obliterated because we don’t believe in that junk. We believe everyone is inherently divine.

    So in the final stage, the jesus extremists, started to talk shit and do some long long long long copy and paste posts to try and convert. Maybe if they put the longest post on this page, more people will listen to them. lol………. Instead people just ignore those long as posts. Ultimately they have no argument, they know they follow shit for face religion, a.k.a. Christianity and now they bitch and act like little girls because they didn’t convince anyone. If anything, it helped more Vedic people realize what a retarded religion Christianity is and how hate full they are to Vedic people. It is a religion that loves to demonize and will get no where without the use of force and trickery. It can never have an honest debate. They always start out by demonizing the other group. Only a religion of hate does that.

  41. Whеn I was lοokіng oνer this is inѕpіrеd us to begіn studying the ѕubject a much more.
    I found οne to dеfіnitely ԁеfinitely be the beѕt reѕоuгсеs since when I wаѕ іnsiԁe the mаrκet for thіngs muсh like Who was Rama – Myth or Historical Hero – Agniveer I ѕtumbled upon a signifiсant junk.

    Glаd to loсate there’s certainly still some decent minded individuals.

  42. To All,

    I have asked repeated this to Mr. Spanky:

    “Mr. Spanky, a.k.a. Mac,

    As I said before, you keep posting false things about Vedas and Dharmic people. I asked you before Mr. Spanky, if you are going to make a claim about either, provide proof from an approved translated copy of the Vedas:

    1. Tell use how translated the that copy of the Vedas

    2. Which verse you are talking about

    3. Which Vedic group approves it

    4. Where can I go buy or checkout a copy of it.

    5. Who published that copy of the Vedas.”

    Mr. Spanky keeps running away. He has no gutts and is spineless. Only a coward would make such ridiculous claims without proof. Mr. Spanky redial is page with all kinds of claims about Vedic people, but he didn’t provide an ounce of proof from the Vedas from an approved Vedic source. He needs to stop being a little girl and be a man for once. GIVE US REAL PROOF.

  43. Christianity is made up religion by the Romains and imposed on the world through pure hate. Only reason why christianity is as big as it is today has to do with force by the gun, sword, and manipulation. The utter murderous genocide the church did to the native Americas, both in South and North America is unbelievable. To try and claim in any way that christianity is remotely close to love is the biggest prank on the world. You have to be a total stupid to believe that is about love. We can go page after pager after page after page of the history of christianity and the devastation it caused worldwide. The pure hate and venom it used to conquer people. Christianity is the worlds largest murdering machine. The number of people who were murdered by christianity is unbelievable. No other religion can even match the shear number of people brutally murdered and lives destroyed because of that religion. Christianity is a global disaster. A plague we have never seen, followed closely by its sister islam. It’s like cancer and aids. which one would you like to deal with. The only one out of the Abhramic religions that hasn’t proselytized through force is Judaism. Probably the only group that has some dignity out of the lot of extremist faiths of Abraham.

  44. @Vicjags : No problem there.
    we will leave the Original Sin here as you dont seems to have the logical arsenal to validate this so called “belief” of christianity.

    Hope that we are still of the understand that we will have a “DEBATE” on the topic ” Why christianity is the ONLY true path and on the validity of concept of Salvation in christianity”.

    • Ankur, I have already explained in details your questions. Ctrl F for yourself. Jesus is the only WAY to reach God and salvation can be reached thru the blood of Jesus Christ thru faith in Him.

  45. How very very convenient of you to say so? Had it not been for Churchianity, Christianity would have been limited in its scope and reach. People of Europe, Americas, and Australia would have been practicing paganism as their ancestors did had it not been for the Medieval Inquisition and the series of Inquisitions that followed it. If Goa has a large number of brown Christians, it is because of the Portuguese Inquisition that lasted over 250 years. Hence, it is not a strawman that I was attacking. Christianity owes its rampant expansion to it. A discussion on Christianity will be incomplete without discussing Churchianity.

    You do the Chennai Inquisition through violence to begin with and then let it last for at least a few centuries. Then unleash a wave of inculturation. The older memories will die out with the passage of time and the newer generations who would not know of their antecedents’ spiritual moorings because of the iron curtain will eventually begin to identify with the alien philosophy.

    • There was a dark age in christianity under the authority of a few Popes. The dark age was because of Islam and idolatry which tried to take over the holy land. The Papacy sent crusaders to fight them and Portughese inquisition was a part of it. That was a religious fight in the early christianity. For the early christianity had bore the wrath of heathen nations in killing millions of early christians. After losing millions of early christians, Catholicism took a stand and fought out the heathen nations over their faith.

      So as I say Portughese inquisition was a part of it. Emperor Nero was like Hitler. Nero persecuted millions of christians on account. He was known for having captured Christians burned in his garden at night for a source of light. This view is based on the writings of Tacitus, Suetonius, and Cassius Dio, the main surviving sources for Nero’s reign. Roman Catholicism has its dark history. Catholics are NOT the owners or forefathers of christianity. Protestants call them Roman Catholics NOT christians.

    • I am sure the Indian Hindus had nothing to do with the early Christians getting a raw deal from the heathens. Then, why were they made to suffer in Goa? And, in any case, Vicjags maintained that Christ’s way is the way of Love, then why resort to violence to spread his message?

      • In early christianity later on the Papacy took hold of the holy land Israel because they had their stake of faith in it. Centuries after that dark ages those Kings who were christians after they conquered foreign lands they militarily carried inquisitions especially Spanish and Portughese. It was the Portughese King who ordered the inquisition NOT the Papacy of Rome in Goa inquisitions and wherever they occupied lands.

        If you look at the ancient history the Conquerers enforced their own belief systems on the land they conquered except Darius I, Ashuraures, Cyrus, Alexander and Brits.

      • Missionaries of Society of Jesus were sent to Goa and the Portuguese colonial government supported the mission with incentives for baptized Christians. They offered rice donations for the poor, good positions in the Portuguese colonies for the middle class and military support for local rulers. Many newly converted Indians were opportunistic Rice Christians, who still practiced their old religion. This was seen as a threat to the purity of Christian belief. St. Francis Xavier, in a 1545 letter to John III of Portugal, requested an Inquisition to be installed in Goa.

      • Rice is the staple food of all coastal people anywhere in the world. You mean to say that until Portughese came those people were going hungry without rice?

        What you said in the rest of your comment is right. Thats why it is called an inquisition.

      • Poverty existed in every era. BTW, rice Christian is a term used, usually pejoratively, to describe someone who has formally declared himself/herself a Christian for material benefits rather than for religious reasons. So, it is not necessarily only rice that was on offer.

  46. @VicJags : I seriouly hoped that i would not have to dive into English Semantics.
    In fact, even I was saying the same thing here

    “Sin Nature ” is a illogical construct ,even then
    “Sin Nature ” (if for arguement sake accepted) does not Equate to “Sinner” as the former mean that the sin is yet to Happen but the actual definition of Original sin is that every One born is a sinner i.e. sin has already happened.

    Now with this understading do you agree?

  47. Guys/Oldtimers of this website,

    check out this stupid reasoning of VicJacks “teaching school children that Earth is flat” & Zakir Naik’s 2+2 = 4 logic.

    😀 Have fun

    • And perhaps someone need to introduce to them the Great Voltaire(assuming they might not be interested in vedic school of thoughts which has influenced him) so that they can come out of their ‘slave of god’ mentality.

      I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.
      Voltaire

    • Take it easy! There questions are not so difficult to answer. They are curious to debate, but they lack proper evidence of well researched, proved and authenticated stuff in their scriptures. Even the writers of their scriptures were ill-informed, so they wrote poetries of folklores and legends of folklores.

      It is like if a blind person leads another blind person, both of them will fall in the pit.

      @SDC should know that as of today, there would be many pregnent virgins in India. Europeans and American couples prefer young surrogate virgin girls and they pay good money to them. India has a lot of surrogate virgin mothers as of today.

      God planted the Holy Seed in the womb of Mary.

      Luke 1: 28-29 The angel (Gabriel) went to her (Mary) and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.” Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be.

      Luke 1:34-37 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. For nothing is impossible with God.”

    • Probably, the “intellectually superior” Christians do not know of IVF techniques that have been developed by scientists or were they? It could be very well possible that the Bible has reference to artificial insemination methods and the scientists simply stole them.

  48. @VicJags : I missed your this response you Original sin, i think you have not very well understood the christain Doctrine, as per it “Every Human is BORN IN SIN/BORN SINNER” and what you say “has sin Nature in him” are totally not reconcialiable,so i would suggest you go back to the basics of your dogma.

  49. @Vicjags

    Talking of a logically incoherent entity, how does a virgin mother exist? Is not the concept of a virgin mother a logically contradictory term which cannot exist in reality. Forget about Spanish Inquisition, could you shed some light on Goa Inquisition? And going by your definition of who is a Christian, there will be very less christians in the world today. How can God die for my sins when I have committed them more than 2000 years after his death? I did not have time to go through the entire post. Will raise some more questions other time?

    • I am sure “virgin” Mary did not adopt Jesus or did she? In any case, let me enlighten about the process of human reproduction, the knowledge of which you sorely lack. Humans reproduce through sexual intercourse between a man and a woman. During intercourse, the interaction between the male and female reproductive systems results in fertilization of the woman’s ovum by the man’s sperm, which after a gestation period is followed by childbirth. The fertilization of the ovum may nowadays be achieved by artificial insemination methods, which do not involve sexual intercourse. Trying to hide behind technical jargon. Then, I must say it is a lame attempt to get out of the shithole that you have got into, moron. Are you then trying to imply that Jesus was born out of artificial insemination methods. Does the Bible help in providing any clues in this regard? Your belief that Mary was a Virgin at the time of conception through the help of Holy Ghost is not a rational argument and not supported by facts. And it is incumbent on you to explain the possibility of a supposed Holy Ghost impregnating a “virgin” woman since you are representing Christianity in this forum.

      If the Christians can launch a “harvesting of souls” program, the Hindus are well within their rights to fight for a Hindu Rashtra. As for the Kandhamal riots and the “peaceful” temperament of the Christians, please refer to link given below and know more about your peaceful brethren:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

      • Bro.,

        You must have missed my yesterday’s posts. Human logic, rationality and science do not apply to miracles. Miracles are against all odds, thats why we call it a miracle. When God speaks things into existence, it defies all science, all rationality and all human logic. I already mentioned twice thrice in yesterday’s post that

        IS THERE ANYTHING IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD.

        Mary was over shadowed with the Holy Spirit means the Holy Seed was planted in her womb without sex. Does God need sex? Is He made up of flesh (dust)?

        I gave two historical examples from the scriptures also. You are arguing from a scientific point of view and human logic. I am giving you historical evidence from spiritual point of view. Until you mix up science with spirituality, you will never understand the truth.

        I am going to ask you a question. We know Jesus walked on the water. But there is a type of lizard which also runs on the water defying all science. Tell me, how is that lizard running on the water surface? Now, this is a science question.

      • Forget it. I have already answered almost all of their questions and SDC’s as well. I think he has missed some of my answers/posts, so he is re-arguing. Its Ok, SDC is a nice guy. He is just curious about “eating the spiritual food at one time” and he dont know that he can digest it even. His stomach is upset and it is all that is. And all our socalled hindu brothers on this blog act the same way. They are craving like babies for “spiritual food”, so give them little by little. Milk first.

      • The reason I butted in is because in your reply to Mac you made vituperative remarks about my views. Obviously, I could not have just ignored them. And it was you who tried to act smart by introducing the term “Virgin Bachelor.”

      • I am not talking about black magic here. What other religions’ swamys or prophets have performed a miracle? Tell me one on historical record. Biblical prophets performed miracles which are on historical records. In your mythology, Ram has to ask for the help of hanuman to build a bridge and then go on the other side to bring Sita back. Whereas God parted the Red Sea by the breath of His mouth and let all Israel pass on the other side of the sea, on feet. He destroyed the whole army of Pharoh when they entered the Red Sea by bringing back the waters.

        The lizard runs on still waters, it is not walking on water. Whereas Jesus was walking on the waves of the sea. Jesus calmed down the storm with a command “calm down” and the wind died down.

      • How do you differentiate between a miracle and an act of black magic? Miracles have been performed by a lot of babas. Even Sai baba of Shirdi has been reported to have performed miracles during his lifetime.

      • O’yeah Shirdi Sai Baba and the rest of the babbas amassing the wealth and doing rice magic, hand trick. Is’nt Sachin Tendulkar his son? Its a miracle!

        If you want to see real life magic, check on youtube “Chris Angel”. He can make all your babas run as far as real life magic is concerned.

      • Well, you are confusing Shirdi Sai Baba with Sathya Sai Baba. In any case, Criss Angel can perform better miracles than Benny Hinn or Paul Dinakaran for that matter. And, he also walks on water and flies in the air.

      • Criss Angel is a master illusionist and a magician. Whereas Dhinakaran and Benny Hinn performs miracles in the Name of Yeshua Ha Mashiach. Criss Angel does hand tricks, where as these preachers only do it in the Name of Yeshua.

      • I am sure with preachers like Benny Hinn and Paul Dinakaran, there should no longer be any place for pestilences in this world. They could go on performing miracles in the Name of Yeshua Ha Mashiach, what say you? The next time you see someone suffering from cancer or a serious illness, you know who to get in touch with, isn’t it?

      • Miracles can happen, if the person who wants to get healed has himself have faith in the Name of Jesus Christ.

        Jesus said: If you have faith as small as this mustard seed and if you tell the mountain to be uprooted and thrown in to the ocean, it will be done.

    • You do not know about the Goa Inquisition or you do not want to know about it? Because it a relatively recent event that clearly points to the barbaric methods employed by the Christians to spread their faith and thus your premise that Christianity did not spread through violence also stands nullified. Also, let me produce a famous quote by Bishop Desmond Tutu to unearth the nefarious intentions of the missionaries: “When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said, ‘Let us pray.’ We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land.” Go through this link and find out more about Goa Inquisition:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition

      I will leave out the True versus false Christian topic for now.

      I actually was questioning the Christian belief that Jesus died on the cross for their sins. How can one suffer for someone elses’ sins 2000 years before they were even committed? Do you get my point, now?

      • You are right about Desmond Tutu. He did said that. Let me tell you who Desmond Tutu is. He is a descendent of Cannan, the cursed grandson of Noah. The Cannanites spread all over the world taking away the lands of other descendents of Noah. They spread, but they didnt developed or progressed. They lived a nomadic life because of the curse of Noah.

        Genesis 9:25 And he (Noah) said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. He also said, “Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem (Semites/Elamites)! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth (Europeans/all white skin); may Japheth live in the tents of Shem, and may Canaan be his slave.” [Here Europeans are allowed to visit and live in the tents of Shem means semites and elamites (Indians)].

        Portugese were in Goa. I dont give a darn about Portugese because to me my people first, they did occupied our land. Mahatma Gandhi and Nehru fought with Brits with the weapon of non-violence and won. They why did Nehru send an army to fight with Portugese down there.

        Your another question of 2000 years and how can our sins be forgiven by Jesus who died 2000 years ago. That is the easiest one.

        Sin entered the world thru one man Adam who was made from the dust of the earth. So also the payment of the sin was made in flesh by the second Adam (Jesus) who came from heavens and who resurrected and ascended to heavens and now sits on the right hand of God Almighty, the Father (Abba) of all creation. Both of the Adams are called sons of God in the geneology of mankind as it is written.

        Sin brought death into this world because God said: The day thou shalt eat of this tree, thou shalt surely die. That was just one command God gave to Adam and Eve. They broke it and sin entered the flesh (world) along with came God’s judgment —death.

        Sin gets its power from the law (God’s command) and its punishment is death. It is written: The wages of sin is death. And there is no redemption of sin in God’s eyes unless there is pouring of blood of the first born and unblemished. Again;

        Numbers: God is not a man that He should lie.

        Now, on the cross Yeshua said: IT IS FINISHED.

        The law is fulfilled and put aside. There was a great earthquake and sun disappeared and darkness covered the world and the curtain of the temple of Jerusalem was torn into two from top to bottom and the Glory of God which was sitted in the temple in the holiest of the holy place left the temple. Now if you want to come to God, Yeshua Ha Mashaich is the ONLY WAY and there is no other way.

        God made Yeshua a sin offering, who knew no sin and then nailed the sin on the tree making a mockery of those Powers and Principalites (rebellious angels) and defeated Satan. THE LAW IS FULFILLED AND PUT ASIDE.

        It says in NT: While we were still sinners, Yeshua died for us.

        I killed him because of my sins.

        This would be a very heavy spiritual food for you to digest. Eat little by little as much as you can digest. It takes time to grow in spirituality.

        God bless.

      • You are using the arguments of atheists and evolutionists. Their mission is to try to defy God concept thru bad science and hypothesis. The guy who was in charge of human genom project is a practicing christian. The 6th type of evolution, the division among each KIND of speices is already proved twice.

        In 2000, researchers led by Human Genome Project Director Francis Collins completed the first full “sequence” of human genetic material, prompting much debate over what such material might be used for. The issue of bioethics remains as potent today as it was then, most visibly with the controversial issue of stem cell research. The following piece was originally published in 2000.

        There are sure to be many who read with trepidation this morning’s news that researchers have completed the first “sequence” of human genetic material. Some will ask, isn’t this playing God? Some will fear that the work is the effort of scientists determined to disprove the existence of a higher power. Interesting, then, that Francis Collins, a molecular biologist who is head of the National Human Genome Research Institute, the federal government part of the sequencing project, is a devout Christian and a leading member of the

        American Scientific Affiliation, the 3,000-member organization for scientists who are actively religious.

        Collins once told me, “I find my appreciation of science is greatly enriched by religion. When I discover something about the human genome, I experience a sense of awe at the mystery of life, and say to myself, ‘Wow, only God knew before.’ It is a profoundly beautiful and moving sensation, which helps me appreciate God and makes science even more rewarding for me.” Collins first became prominent when he led the team that discovered the gene for cystic fibrosis. As both an active Christian and a prominent biologist, he is perhaps today’s leading exponent for the view that there is no conflict between evolutionary biology and the Bible. Collins winces on the word creationism, asserting that “Creationism has done more harm to serious notions of belief than anything in modern history.” He maintains that the evidence for natural selection is overwhelming, but that this need not stop anyone from believing that a creator God set the process in motion.

        Collins, who prays and attends church regularly, says that “In my field, biology, the standard assumption is that anyone with faith has gone soft in the head. But I don’t check my brains at the door when I go to church.” He finds that many scientists are biased against faith–“When a scientist describes himself as a believer, the first reaction among colleagues may be, ‘How did this guy get tenure?'”–essentially for turf reasons. “Scientists are taught to believe that the data will eventually yield all answers,” Collins says. “So if you tell them there are important aspects of life that cannot be understood through lab tests or data, that means their form of knowledge will always be limited, and some find that threatening.”

        Collins believes that the human genome sequence will add greatly to medical progress but cautions against reading too much into it. He says, “I especially worry about this galloping stampede to reductionism in my field, where the rush is on to attribute everything, even personality traits, to DNA. This is patently ridiculous. Reductionist explanations of human consciousness fly in the face of everything else we know about the subject.” (“Reductionism” means attributing complex results, such as human self-awareness, exclusively to simple causes, such as DNA chemicals.)

        Summing up his views of the boundary between science and faith, Collins says, “I would not expect religion to be the right tool for sequencing the human genome and by the same token would not expect science to be the means to approaching the supernatural. But on the really interesting larger questions, such as ‘Why are we here?’ or ‘Why do human beings long for spirituality?,’ I find science unsatisfactory. Many superstitions have come into existence and then faded away. Faith has not, which suggests it has reality.”

      • The nature of the source is irrelevant but the arguments are not. It does not really matter as to what director Francis Collins believes in. But at least, he does not endorse the bogus theory of creationism which is at the base of Abrahamic faiths. At least, the Genographic Project has been able to establish that we are not all descendants of Adam and Eve. The following link also raises pertinent questions on the idea of Original Sin:

      • Bible is the Word of God. Not just Francis Collins, but if you ask any christian, he will say that he believes in the Word of God whole not a part of it, the Whole Word of God. Francis Collins believes in creationism as it is written in the bible. His project arrives at the conclusion that they all are related to one man and one woman, Adam and Eve.

      • I only producing excerpts from your comment:

        Collins winces on the word creationism, asserting that “Creationism has done more harm to serious notions of belief than anything in modern history.” Collins says, “I would not expect religion to be the right tool for sequencing the human genome and by the same token would not expect science to be the means to approaching the supernatural.”

        The Christians believe that the Bible is the word of God. Others do not toe this line of thinking. I have already referred to some findings from the Genographic Project having arrived at a different conclusion. The last word is yet to be said. BTW, this link makes an interesting reading:

        http://ancientindians.wordpress.com/tag/national-geographic-genographic-project/

      • Creationism is a subject of spirituality. Without faith you cannot understand the Word of God neither believe it. What Collins says is true “Creationism has done more harm to serious notions of belief than anything in modern history.” I had already told you in the beginning that Bible is not scientific, it is spiritual, it is the Word of God. You cannot reach God thru science.

      • If at all creationism is a subject of spirituality, then at least do not try to pass it of as science. I think I have also told you that Bible is the word of God only for the Christians and not for the non-Christians. As I am still to reach God, I would not know more about it. Different people have different notions about how to reach God.

      • The prospect of doing a retreat or asking for apology does not even arise. You were of the opinion that true Christianity cannot be spread through “converting” anyone by luring them or forcing them under sword. But I already pointed out to the fact that force was indeed used to convert people. And I also brought to your
        notice what some prominent Africans feel about the spread of Christianity. The life stories of Malcolm X, Muhammad Ali, et al will be a good case in point. The very fact that missionaries are pumping in billions of dollars in Asian countries do not rule out the case of enticing and alluring poor people into the faith.

      • I am sure you are aware of the terms Anno Domini (AD or A.D.) and Before Christ (BC or B.C.). Now that it is over 2000 years of Christ’s crucifixion, my question was how could he die for the sins that I commit here and now.

      • In the beginning, God only gave one command to Adam and Eve. “You shalt not eat of this tree. The day you shalt eat of this tree, you shall surely die.” Because of this command death was about to enter the world as Adam and Eve disobeyed that one command. Sin is disobedience to God. Sin gets its power from the law. When Cain the first son of Adam got angry. God said to him “If you desire good, good is going to come to you. If you desire bad sin is crouching right at your door”. So sin was already there in the world. Thereafter, Cain killed his brother Abel. Genesis 4:11-16, the curse was as a result of Cain treacherously murdering his brother Abel, then lying about the murder to God. When Cain spilled his brother’s blood, the earth became cursed as soon as the blood hit the ground. In a sense, the earth was left “drinking Abel’s blood”. Genesis 4:12 gives a two part sentencing for Cain’s curse. The first concerns the earth that was cursed by Abel’s blood. Should Cain attempt to farm the land, the earth would not yield produce for him. This may imply why he went on to build cities, namely the City of Enoch. The second part of the curse marks Cain as a fugitive and wanderer.

        After this lawlessness, violence and wars spread amongst the descendents of Noah because of the “fallen angels” (nephilims) who came down in flesh directly during Jared’s time. Jared is father of Enoch. God destroyed all flesh on earth because of the wickedness during the time of Noah. God did not allowed the spirits of the dead giants in hades where the dead go. They are left out on the earth until the judgement day and they are demon spirits who mislead people.

        According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal (This means not to practice Jhatka method. You dont kill by cutting the living animal in two pieces. You have to kill it with one single slit to the throat first before you cut it into pieces). These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come.

        The Noahic commandments are binding on all people, because all people are descended from Noah and his family. The 613 mitzvot of the Torah, on the other hand, are only binding on the descendants of those who accepted the commandments at Sinai and upon those who take on the yoke of the commandments voluntarily. In addition, the Noahic commandments are applied more leniently to non-Jews than the corresponding commandments are to Jews, because non-Jews do not have the benefit of Oral Torah to guide them in interpreting the laws.

        Later on, God gave the Torah, the law to Israel at Mt.Sinai thru Moses. The law states that the wages of sin is death. Under the law everyone will die for no one is sinless. Law requires various animal and bird sacrifices for various sins. Jews observed the law as a matter of deeds. Everybody has sinned and have fallen short of God’s glory, which was taken away from Adam and Eve at the fall of mankind. Jesus said: The one who has not sinned will cast the first stone at the prostitute.

        Jesus Christ is the ultimate and perfect sacrificial Lamb of God, born thru virgin, holy and unblemished. Sin entered the world thru one man Adam, so also it was repaid in full by the second Adam who came from heaven. Sin was committed in flesh, so also it was repaid in flesh. Jesus said on the cross: IT IS FINISHED. The law is fulfilled and put aside. Now no more sacrifices. The Shekinah (Glory) of God tored the curtain of the temple of Jerusalem and left.

        God opened the door out of His love for all mankind by sending His only begotten Son as a sin offering for all generations of mankind. Now if you want to come to God, Jesus is the only Way. Jesus entered the Court of God in heavens with His own blood and offered it to God. Then didnt came back, but He sat on the right hand of God. If you believe that Jesus died for your sins, repent and confess, you will be saved. The door which God opened is thru Faith (Yeshua Ha Mashiach), God’s grace will be given to you free. It is a gift God gave to mankind. Jesus stayed in hades (where dead rest) for 3 days and gave them the good news of His sacrifice and they accepted Him as their personal Saviour.

        2 Corinthians 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

        Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

        John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

        Romans 4:25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

        Romans 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

        Romans 2:12-16 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

      • Search for “WHY IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO FORCEFULLY CONVERT ?”

        You argued that it is impossible to convert forcefully but I have already pointed out to you the concept of Inquisition.

      • Neither Agniveer or Swami Dayanand Saraswati were experts in world religions. They have studied their own vedic religion. If you see in this world today, there are a bunch of “world religions experts” and they are great christian apologetics like Dr.Ravi Zacharias, who is from a brahmin family. He speaks amongst academics and debates with scientiests and top notch religious leaders like top muslim leader of Mecca, Saudi Arabia and Jerusalem mosque ; and sometimes addresses the Senate meetings here.

        Ram has been a common name in old classical languages. We know that Agniveer has misused it without any linguistic reasoning. Neither is he a linguist.

    • @ MAC i can prove there are no miracles,
      can you prove, just send a video of yourself performing a miracle. if you show me i will be christian next minute.

  50. @mac,jejus teaching same vedanta and buddhism,his teachings available in old hindu and buddhist philosophy.jejus thought is not a new thought,it is a borrowed on hinduism and buddhism.

    • Buddha’s concept of spiritual wisdom is that all evil emanates from the human desires. Buddha DO NOT identify himself as a god. Buddha’s teachings are of defying desires. He do not explore the realms of spirituality. In fact, he dont even know what spirituality is.

      On the other hand, Jesus identifies himself as Son of God. The Yah or I AM of OT and claims His godship again and again. Under jewish law, it is a blasphemy to call yourself God. They even dont utter the name of God, which is very holy instead they use the titles Adonai or Elohim. The reason they crucified Jesus is that He claimed that He is God of hebrews.

      So when the High Priest asked Jesus in the Sanhedrine (jewish court of law) hearing. “ARE you the Messiach, the Son of the Most High?”

      Jesus said: “That is what you are saying, I AM (Yah, the hebrew God),”

      And the High Priest had enough reason to tear his garment saying: “Do we need any more proof? It is a blasphemy”. The punishment for blasphemy is death under the law.

      If Jesus is a liar. I tell you even a fool would not tell lies knowing that its punishment is death. Jesus had no political or profiteering agenda. He said: “The Son of man has no place to lay his head”.

      Even the ruling Roman Governor Pontius Pilate after questioning Jesus said: “I do not find any fault in this man”. And he washed his hands in front of the public saying:”I am innocent of this man’s blood”.

      When one compares Jesus with the other great religious leaders, a remarkable distinction emerges. Ravi Zacharias, who grew up in a Hindu culture, in fact, he was born in a brahmin family, has studied world religions and observed a fundamental distinction between Jesus Christ and the founders of other major religions.

      “In all of these, there emerges an instruction, a way of living. It is not Zoroaster to whom you turn; it is Zoroaster to whom you listen. It is not Buddha who delivers you; it is his Noble Truths that instruct you. It is not Mohammad who transforms you; it is the beauty of the Koran that woos you. By contrast, Jesus did not only teach or expound His message. He was identical with His message.”

      The truth of Zacharias’ point is underscored by the number of times in the Gospels that Jesus’ teaching message was simply “Come to me” or “Follow me” or “Obey me.” Also, Jesus made it clear that his primary mission was to forgive sins, something only God could do.

      In The World’s Great Religions, Huston Smith observed, “Only two people ever astounded their contemporaries so much that the question they evoked was not ‘Who is he?’ but ‘What is he?’ They were Jesus and Buddha. The answers these two gave were exactly the opposite. Buddha said unequivocally that he was a mere man, not a god—almost as if he foresaw later attempts to worship him. Jesus, on the other hand, claimed … to be divine.

  51. @Vicjags : Very Well lets start it slow now that you have agreed to a sane and logical debate.
    my First query : What is the rationale and logic behind the claim that Jesus is the ONLY way to Salvation and what is Salvation. so here i have posed two questions.

  52. The retention rate in Christianity is the worst in the world. I live in the U.S. and every day more people are leaving Christianity here. As well as Europe. I know so many Americans that are getting into Hinduism, Sikhi, Buddhism, and Jainism. The fastest growing religion the U.S. is between two major religions. They are Buddhism and Mormonism, and as we know most mainstream christians find mormonism to be a corruption of christianity. I personally know many ex-christians that are sick of christianity. Why do you think Obama is such a hit. The republican side in the U.S. has usually been siding with Christian extremists and missionaries. People are sick of them. That is why Democrats are winning. And when I say people leaving Christianity, I mean people from all races. I have met black people, white people, Hispanics, and even arabs who come from christian back grounds. It is a very common thing. And they all tell me that the axioms that make up christianity make no sense. the Christian trinity is totally bogus. Vast majority only follow it culturally and more and more are even willing to change that once they become more knowledgeable about Vedic Hinduism, Sikhi, or Buddhism. I have met so many black, white, and Hispanic and even arab buddhists in the U.S. Seriously, Christianity is dieing, and in one last desperate effort, churches are trying to redirect their money to Asia to try and save themselves, but Asia’s fighting back as well. They know christianity is a total bogus religion. Everyone I ask say the christian trinity makes no sense. It is total bullshit.

    • You are a total fool Mr. Spanky. I lived in the us for the last 30+ years. I have seen how things changed. If anyone, its you who looks like total retard and moron.

      “Buddhism is being recognized as the fastest growing religion in Western societies both in terms of new converts and more so in terms of friends of Buddhism, who seek to study and practice various aspects of Buddhism.[3][4] As in the United States, Buddhism is ranked among the fastest growing religions in many Western European countries.[5]

      The Australian Bureau of Statistics through statistical analysis held Buddhism to be the fastest growing spiritual tradition/religion in Australia in terms of percentage gain with a growth of 79.1% for the period 1996 to 2001 (200,000→358,000).[6] However, because Australia is statistically small, no inferences can be drawn from that for the whole world.

      Buddhism is the fastest-growing religion in England’s jails, with the number of followers rising eightfold over the past decade”
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion#cite_note-4

      I don’t think you have ever stepped into a Buddhist temple before. Unlike you I have, and they are the most multi-ethinic religion in the US. I have seen people from all races. Just because you live inside a box and never want to get your tiny little brain hurt doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. Go to buddhist temple, google and research for yourself you stupid retard.

      And yet you still have not provided any solid claims about the comments you made about Vedic people. I am still waiting for quotes from the Vedas translated by an accepted and recognized Vedic group. If you are the expert you claim you are, provide the Vedic translator, Vedic group that supports the translation of the Vedas, and Publisher. Since you are the big fat expert, I want proof, so I can go research it for myself. And don’t give me translations give to you by some christian. Seriously you are going to stoop that low. I can just make up translations about your bible as well and make shit up. BE A MAN YOU FOOL. Stop being such a spanked retard. And provide real proof for once. Stop hiding and running away from the proof question I keep asking you. You are really a wimpy fool.

      • I love cartoons. I love to watch Tom and Jerry. I just love cartoons like U. U bring joy to my heart, when I read U. Thank U.

        You said: I have been living here since 30 years and still you are eating vedic fill in the blanks. LOL! I told you I love cartoons like U.

        Now, Islam says our relgion is the religion of Adam and Eve. Thinking as if Adam and Eve ever practiced a religion. It is thru Adam and Eve that the sin entered the world. And they are the children of God, made by God’s hands. They only broke one command of God. They are the sons and daughters of God as per geneology.

        Then, you come here my wise pandit krishnarao, and you say: Our religion is trillions of year old. Just because it is written in vedas, the truth of our beliefs.

        I am not even a religious person like U. I am a spiritual person and I have already seen thru U. Vedas birth, I have already exposed in my earlier posts. Then, why I am wasting my time here. Because, I in the first place came here to discuss not debate, the truth, the wisdom and the knowledge, I thought I want to share it with my people. I thought may be something I may not know, I can learn it from you and may be we both together can find some truth and share it. But U R hell bound in condemning and cursing.
        God bless.

      • Mr. Spanky, a.k.a. Mac, You really are a total retard. Again you made a bunch of claims about the Vedas. You haven’t given me one verse translated by a Vedic scholar on here. Give me the name of the Vedic Scholar. The Verse, the publisher, and the Vedic group that supports that translation. I am waiting you BIG FAT CHEAT.

        Unlike you I have given proof that Buddhism is the fastest growing religion in the West. Incase you have forgotten I will repost.

        “Buddhism is being recognized as the fastest growing religion in Western societies both in terms of new converts and more so in terms of friends of Buddhism, who seek to study and practice various aspects of Buddhism.[3][4] As in the United States, Buddhism is ranked among the fastest growing religions in many Western European countries.[5]

        The Australian Bureau of Statistics through statistical analysis held Buddhism to be the fastest growing spiritual tradition/religion in Australia in terms of percentage gain with a growth of 79.1% for the period 1996 to 2001 (200,000→358,000).[6] However, because Australia is statistically small, no inferences can be drawn from that for the whole world.

        Buddhism is the fastest-growing religion in England’s jails, with the number of followers rising eightfold over the past decade”
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion#cite_note-4

        I’m sure you are burning inside because you see your white brother who you wish to be exactly like leaving the very thing you wanted to be like. Because they even know that christianity is total bullshit. LOL. And every day that goes by more people will and are leaving Christianity. I personally met many Westerns that left Christianity. They know what non-sense it is. Get over yourself, they want to live a life that leads to truth and they know for a fact Christianity doesn’t. And they are also sick of the lies that the church puts out about Dharmic religions. Like you the Church also does not quote from Vedas, they make stuff up. They do not give translations by Vedic scholars, nor do they give name of a translator, or the verse, or the Vedic group that supports a translations, or the publisher. They have ZERO proof. And in the West when you are given ZERO proof people stop believing the shit you say. And that is what you have done. Given ZERO proof.

      • krishnarao, You write garbage. You think bad mouthing would win you an arguement. The meanness that you show on this blog is self-explanatory of your being. It shows how you were raised.

        Buddha was born in 563 BC before Christ. Then, why there are no majority of buddhists in the world population as you say that it is the fastest growing religion in the world today? Why the majority of the world population today follows Abrahamic religions?

      • Mr. Spanky, a.k.a. Mac,

        The only person on here who pushed their filth is you. You popped on this site and started spewing your disgusting sewer shit on this website. By you calling anyone a demon worshiper makes you a screwed up person. That is the worst from of hate to call someone that. Clearly you follow a religion of pure hate to make such comments about people.

        Quote me the line where I made this comment, “buddhists in the world population as you say that it is the fastest growing religion in the world today?”
        – Where did I say the “world.” You are making up stuff again. I said it was the fastest growing religion in the West. not the world.

        So now you have two thing you need to give me proof on. You made all these claims about Vedic people. Give me the proof of the claims you made about Vedic people:

        1. Quote from the Vedas
        2. The name of the Vedic practicing person who translated the Verse and copy of the Vedas.
        3. The publisher of the Vedas.
        4. The name of the Vedic group that supports that translation of the Vedas.

        Give me the proof you little wimp. Stop running away from this question. I will not stop posting this until you respond. You came on here like you were an expert on Hindus. Now put your money where you mouth is and give people proof big boy. Don’t try and hide behind your insults mr. spanky. Be a man for once and give proof.

        The next thing you need to give proof to is where I said, as you claim, “buddhists in the world population as you say that it is the fastest growing religion in the world today?” Go through my comments and show me where I made this statement. Give me the quote and date when I posted it. Because I never made this claim. GIVE ME PROOF BIG BOY.

        If you can’t prove the claims you made, just state you made a mistake and you were wrong. Don’t be a pussy, be a man and admit it when you are wrong.

    • And stop acting like vicjags and you are two different people Mr. Spanky. Comments from both are filled with total nonsense just slightly different personas, Mr. Spanky.

      “icjags has explained to you christianity in layman’s terms very nicely. ”
      – LMAF…….. You have to be joking. Seriously, Christianity is an utter joke. It is filled with hate and filth and as I said before, the trinity of christianity makes zero sense. Infact it is harmful to society. It is causing the retardation of society by believing in that nonsense.

      “but preach it with blurting venom without any base.”
      – Can someone say hypocrite. If anything you are the retard that came on this page and started preaching hate with pure venom. Your the dumbshit that called others on here demon worshipers. Seriously you need to take a note from you own page you dipshit. I’m not the one who runs around telling them they will go to hell. You are a sick human being. And most important, your dumbass comes on a Vedic site and tells people they worship this god or that god which are demons. As I said before, this is a Vedic site, we DO NOT BELIEVE in idol worship. We, only, believe in praying to the One God, Omkar. But as I said before, your dumbass didn’t do proper research of us. If you wanted to talk about idol worship, you should have gone to a mainstream Hindu site, or even to your own church and tell them jesus worship is idol worship. But the fact that you were soooooo stupid and tell people here they worship many gods is a mute point. Because Vedic people consider idol worship against the path to GOd. And that include, praying to idols, belief in son of god or praying to him, or even belief in prophets. We are against all of that nonsense. We believe anyone can connect with God. The importance is the techniques. We don’t believe in or support mongoloid power hunger people like your jesus or Constantine the creator of your bible and religion Christianity. So seriously, go check yourself fool.

      • LOL!

        Bro., Cursing me makes you feel happy? Let it be so, be happy. And God bless.

        Cursing christianity makes you feel happy? Let it be so, be happy. I say: God bless you again.

        John 15:18 Jesus said: If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.

        Matthew 10:22 Jesus said: All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

        Matthew 24:9 Jesus said: Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

        John 7:7 Jesus said: The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil.

        Anyway, your hatred is not your fault, you are born into it.

        God bless.

      • Calling people demons worshipers will get you no where. Only your religion of hate, a.k.a christainity, which was made up by the romains, makes such statements about people you hate monger.

  53. Christianity is an idol worshiping religion that is history centric. It was made up by Constantine during the council of nicea. Simple fact that Christians do not want to face. The bible is made up by Constantine and now the whole Christian world has been duped by one powerful Romain Emperor with his own ambitions to become the most powerful ruler in the world. Christians like mr. spanky has major problems because he does not want to face the truth. He does not want to face the fact that Christianity is a fake religion and more christians everyday are leaving that crazy faith.

  54. Watch your filthy mouth here. Name calling is a poor reflection on you. Don’t think by doing so you will come off well. You refer to yourself as “The Lordship” and we your slaves. That is so sick. You really think you come off as rational. You come off as disgusting. Who do you think you are to think it is ok to call others slaves or any other filthy name, and arrogantly refer to yourself as “The Lordship.” No one here is your slave, you sick man. Your posts are filled with such haughtiness and arrogance and foul language.

    -You came here saying Agniveer should not have said this or that about Christian theology. So far you have not in any of your posts addressed what Agniveer has actually written on Christianity, but have gone off accusing him of criticizing Christian theology which is false. So if you have a rebuttal or argument to what Agniveer actually did write in this article on Christianity regarding history which I quoted above then do it. Don’t falsely accuse Agniveer of something and go argue against it, and demand an apology for something he did not write. So yes your rebuttal on Christianity made by must be on what Agniveer actually wrote about Christianity.

    -If you have doubts on NON-Christian points of history that Agniveer has made which is the most of the article, that is a completely different topic and has nothing to do with Christianity. If that is what you want to debate with someone else commenting on this site, go for it. But that is completely different from your accusations towards Agniveer and your basis for demands for Agniveer to apologize or put disclaimers for Christians. Since it is you who have accused Agniveer of saying false things about Christianity In your rebuttal to Agniveer it must be to what Agniveer said on Christian which is a statement on Christian destruction of libraries.

    -Premise: All Christians are evil people.

    Conclusions: Therefore Christianity should be false.

    That is your premise. Not mine. Agniveer also in this article did not say that either. Agniveer pointed out that Christians have historically destroyed ancient libraries. Does that mean all Christians are evil, no. And he wrote nothing on Christian theology. So you are arguing against a premise no one made. The rest of your post talking about that premise (that is yours and not ours) go is irrelevant as no one but you made it.

    -And also irrelevant is the random miscellaneous issue you bring up Aryan and Dravidian debate out of the blue. Again you are bringing up a topic not addressed in this article and not relevant to your demands that Agniveer apologize for what he wrote regarding Christianity. My point by referring to the site that shows historical destruction by Christians against non-Christian sites was to support Agniveers statement he wrote in the article that Christians have destroyed libraries, and had nothing to do with the Aryan/Dravidian debate you now brought up out of nowhere. It is you and you alone who out of the blue now wants to go into Aryan/Dravidian debate. A completely irrelevant topic unrelated to this article and your false accusations against Agniveer about statement he made regarding Christian theology and to your demands that Agniveer apologize to Christians.

    -Regarding Christian historical destruction of nonChristian sites such as libraries, you said in your above comment “I WILL SIMPLY ACCEPT IT when it says Christians cruelly destroyed non christian sites” The one thing that Agniveer wrote in the article about Christians is that Christians destroyed ancient non-Christian libraries, and you said you accept that Christians destroyed non-Christian sties. There is nothing then to Christians that Agniveer needs to apologize for or put a disclaimer on. He did not write anything about Christian theology, so nothing to apologize regarding that, and he wrote Christians destroyed non-Christian sites such as libraries and you accept that Christians destroyed non-Christian site and so nothing to apologize regarding history either. So what are your going to post about rebutting what Agniveer wrote regarding Christianity here on this article to support your demands that Agniveer apologize to Christians?

    – As for your abusive foul language reply to the issue of what you tell the Government, it is such a good display of your base character and arrogance. I think worse of you not better. And don’t think others reading it are going to think better of your vile language. Your premises are false. My point was not that Government has made it mandatory that you officially convert. My point is about YOU telling the truth about your real faith to the government census. I get that you are still on record officially Hindu, that you don’t have to officially change it, and that is what you report to the government census. But it is still false information. The truth is you are a practicing Christian as you stated. When you choose not to update your official record on what your faith is, you are allowing false information to remain. Again the point is YOU telling the truth, not what the government makes mandatory or not. The official record is false and so what the government gets on its census is also in reality false.

    -As for what I asked Agniveer, I asked them to moderate these posts better since too many are way too long and this is not a place to cut and past half of a book, and also to moderate it to keep it better on topic of the article above, and not let it be hijacked by proselytizers for conversion purposes. Frankly your rambling posts are mostly not logical. You often are off topic and bring up completely irrelevant things, and go off on long ad hominem attacks and disgusting foul language. And you think your impress people.

  55. There are no conversions by allurement. Yes, christians donate and give to poors not for converting them. Christian countries are donating since centuries to poor countries. They send ships full of stuff.

    See it is God’s CALL. You cannot convert anybody by force for you cannot change a human heart from outside. Circumcision is the circumcision of heart, change of heart.

    Romans 11:19 For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.

    Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

    Romans 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

    1 Corinthians 1:26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.

    Ephesians 4:1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.

    Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit–just as you were called to one hope when you were called–

    Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

    2 Thessalonians 1:11 With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith.

    • mac

      just one question bible says that god of bible created confusion of languages among humans so that they fight with each other. do you accept that problem of non acceptance of hindi by south indians is due to bible.

      • First thing I will tell you is that the only Living God, the Self-existant One our Creator is a righteous God. Goodness is His character alone. We are just trying to practice His goodness, but we are not good, we still sin.

        Well, all the descendents of Noah’s 3 sons lived together at Babylon (Ur, Najaf and Fallujah, sunni triangle) under one King Nimrod, who was building a tower to reach upto heavens. He said: Let us build a tower upto the heavens and go there and make war with those who brought flood on the earth and killed all flesh. Nimrod was a Sorcerer, a great one, who was able to talk to the Powers and Principalities (warring angels, rebellious angels) in heavens directly. Nimrod also had the clothing of Adam, stolen by his father Ham (Noah cursed Ham’s son Canaan) with him. When he wore that clothing and goes to hunt, he was a mighty one. As he was a mighty hunter in God’s eyes as the scriptures says. At that time there was one language of the people.

        Genesis 11:7 Come, let’s go down and confuse their language, so that they won’t understand each other’s speech.

        When it says “let’s go down”, it means there were two who came down, Father and Son, Elohim (plural of Eloah means God, a single plural). God divided the tongue of the people, so they cannot communicate. Their plan failed and they were divided and spread in different directions exactly as God had earlier planned the allotment of the earth for them as per the division of the earth by Noah for his three sons and their sons also divided their portions amongst their sons by lot as per the records of the Book of Jubilees.

        Lately, thereafter as the demons had already appeared and misled them. Idolatry and violence erupted and they warred with each other. Demons are the left over spirits of dead giants who died in Noah’s flood. They were wise, bloodthirsty, violent and warring. Because they proceeded from fallen angels called Nephilims (half angels and half humans, who came directly in flesh leaving their spiritual bodies) and women; God so decreed that their place shall be on earth and not heavens until the great day of judgement.

        God loves His creation and God loves His children. But, when His children goes to somebody else a stranger and calls them their fathers, God the Father Almighty gets angry. He has a right to get angry. God created all creation for His glory. We cant give anything to God as all creation belongs to Him and neither He is asking anything from us, He gives, He is the Provider.

        Isaiah 42:8 “I am the LORD (YWHW); that is My Name! I will not give My glory to another or My praise to idols.”

      • You are a cry baby, SDC. Until Brits came, India was not even a country. It was made up of small kings and tribes, hundereds of them. They were fighting amongst themselves. Much of the life was nomadic and thats how Mughals succeded in taking over those small kings. Face the truth. Brits united all those small kings under their rule and so now we have a large country, we proudly call it India our motherland.

        I am going to quote Winston Churchill and I am sure you would not like it what he said.

        It is said that sixty four years ago, during the last days of the British rule, Indians hated British Prime Minister The Right Honorable Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill, KG, OM, CH, FRS, PC who steadfastly opposed the grant of freedom to India by his vituperative statements such as:

        Power will go to the hands of rascals, rogues and freebooters. All Indian leaders will be of low calibre and men of straw. They will have sweet tongues and silly hearts. They will fight amongst themselves for power and India will be lost in political squabbles. A day would come when even air and water would be taxed.”

        “India is merely a geographical expression. It is no more a single country than the equator.

        Sir Winston Churchill was a visionary and was able to visualize what kind of political set-up, bureaucratic and Education system the Britishers were leaving behind them. After 65 years of Independence we now realize that Churchill was a true prophet and foretold of what was in store for the good people of India – a social welfare state.

        Sir Winston Churchill was a visionary and was able to visualize what kind of political set-up, bureaucratic and Education system the Britishers were leaving behind them. After 65 years of Independence we now realize that Churchill was a true prophet and foretold of what was in store for the good people of India – a social welfare state.

        We have to admit, barring a very few notable exceptions among our leaders, that all our present day Indian politicians are of ‘low caliber’ who make hay while sun shines by mortgaging our freedom for the welfare of their own families.

        In the present political arena in India, the political parties keep aside all their moral principles just before the elections and ally with their political enemies.

        While canvassing for votes, these ‘rascals, rogues and freebooters’ come to our doorsteps, and with ‘sweet tongues’ inviegle us by competing with each other by doling out instant cash as per the number of votes in each household and also promise to give non-existing freebies when their party wins.

        After the elections, the winning parties part their ways and “will fight amongst themselves for power and India will be lost in political squabbles’.

        Sir Winston Curchil’s prediction, ‘A day would come when even air and water would be taxed’ has come true. Even polluted and contaminated water is taxed by municipal corporations, townships, and village panchayats.

        Selling water, once considered a sin, is now a booming business because the government is unable to supply clean, potable water to its citizens. Raw water is supplied by tankers and purified potable mineral water in canisters and bottles

      • Probably, the sting of the truth was too hot to handle for this Anglicized bluffmaster. So, you mean to say that there was an organized Judaeo-Christian state even before Aryavarta. The early Christians were themselves nomads, Jewish bootlicker. I am going to quote 2 crafty Christians to expose your nefarious agenda:

        Lord Macaulay’s address to the British Parliament in 2 February, 1835:

        “I have traveled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief. Such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such calibre, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage, and, therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self-esteem, their native self-culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation.”

        Henry Kissinger,the time of the Turkish invasion in Cyprus, while addressing a group of Washington, D.C. businessmen in Sept.1974:

        “The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame. For this reason we must strike deep into their cultural roots: Perhaps then we can force them to conform. I mean, of course, to strike at their language, their religion, their cultural and historical reserves, so that we can neutralize their ability to develop, to distinguish themselves, or to prevail. Thereby removing them as an obstacle to our strategically vital plans in the Balkans, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East, to all this neuralgic territory of great strategic importance for us, for
        the politics of the USA.”

      • There were no christians until Jesus came over 2000 years ago. Romans, Greeks, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ethiopians, Chinese and Egyptians had their own idol gods and goddess. Early christians were executed by both the Jews, Greeks and Romans. They killed hundreds of thousands of them. But, it so happened that as the persecution increased, christianity spread in the world rapidly.

        I will give you a lucid picture of the ancient world then. There were 70 nations born out of the 3 sons of Noah viz. Shem, Ham and Japheth. 26 nations were born out of Shem. 30 nations were born out of Ham and 14 nations were born out of Japheth. Out of the many great kings who ruled thereafter were Pharoah of Egypt, Sennacharib of Assyria, Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon and King David and King Solomon. Thereafter, a nation arose named Persia and its King were Cyrus the Great, Darius I, Ashuraures. They conqurered almost 80% of the world. After them came a conquerer from north named Alexander the Great, who conqured almost all of the world and defeated Darius II. They also had Changize Khan in far east.

        India got urbanized from the time of Chandragupta Maurya I gradually. The land was full of small kings and tribal leaders, mostly nomadic tribes then. When Darius I started to conquer nations, he also conquered Indus valley and its sourrounding nations. He put up Satraps over nations kinda Governors.

        Shem, who is called “the father of all the children of Eber,” was born when Noah had attained the age of 500 years (Genesis 5:32). Though married at the time of the Flood, Shem was then childless. Two years after the Flood, Shem being then 100 years old, his son Arpachshad was born (Genesis 11:10), and was followed by further sons and daughters during the remaining 500 years which preceded Shem’s death.

        Noah’s prophetic blessing, on awakening from his wine, may be regarded as having been fulfilled in his descendants, who occupied Syria (Aramaic), Palestine (Canaan), Chaldea (Arpachshad), Assyria (Asshur), part of Persia (Elam/Indians/Persians), and Arabia (Joktan). In the first three of these, as well as in Elam, Canaanites had settled (if not in the other districts mentioned), but Shemites ruled, at some time or other, over the Canaanites, and Canaan thus became “his servant” (Genesis 9:25,26). The tablets found in Cappadocia seem to show that Shemites (Assyrians) had settled in that district also, but this was apparently an unimportant colony. Though designated sons of Shem, some of his descendants (e.g. the Elamites/Indians/Persians) did not speak a Semitic language, while other nationalities, not his descendants (e.g. the Canaanites), did.

        The immediate descendants of Japheth were seven in number, and are represented by the nations designated Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Mesech, and Tiras; or, roughly, the Armenians, Lydians, Medes, Greeks, Tibarenians, and Moschians, the last, Tiras, remaining still obscure. The sons of Gomer (Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah) were all settled in the West Asian tract; while the sons of Javan (Elisah, Tarshish, Kittim and Dodanim or Rodanim) occupied the Mediterranean coast and the adjacent islands.

        The nationalities described as Hamitic–a parallel to those of the Semitic section–were so called because they fell under Egyptian dominion. This would make the original Hamitic race to have been Egyptian and account for Ham as a (poetical) designation of that nationality. Professor F. L. Griffith has pointed out that the Egyptian Priapic god of Panopolis (Akhmim), sometimes called Menu, but also apparently known as Khem, may have been identified with the ancestor of the Hamitic race–he was worshipped from the coast of the Red Sea to Coptos, and must have been well known to Egypt’s eastern neighbors. He regards the characteristics of Menu as being in accord with the shamelessness of Ham as recorded in Genesis 9:20.

        Four Sons of Ham were Mizraim (Egypt), Cush (Sudan, Ethiopia), Put (Lybia), Canaan (Hivites, Jebusites, Arvadites, Girgashites, Amorites, Arkites, Sinites (Chinese), Hittites, Sidonians, Perizzites, Zemarites)

      • I need to make a confession here. The source from where I copied Macaulay’s address to British Parliament does not seem to be authentic and hence is doubtful although some claim that the statement was made off the record. I erred on that count. I should have double-checked it. My bad. But this link will definitely give you an insight into the making of history:

        http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=359456387468721&set=a.245163898897971.59595.244970388917322&type=1&theater

        I hope Mr. Mac has answers to the questions that have been raised there.

        In as far as Noah’s sons populating the world is concerned, I have already put forth my views against it. I am not going to do a rehash of the same. In as far India getting urbanized from the time of Chandragupta I is concerned, I believe I posted a link detailing the main features of the Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization that dates back to over 5000 years. Also, I would like you to search for Mehrgarh which is now seen as a precursor to the Indus Valley Civilization.

    • No, I have not misunderstood you. You are right on the track. You are doing good. I just added little more sense to your contention with verses. I thought the spiritual aspect you should not miss and the truth remains. You are doing good.

  56. “I will continue typing my long post, which will definitely interest our Muslim brothers,” You’ve said this more than once. You seem oddly concerned about Muslims observing your interacting with Hindus. Who cares. You think that is going to intimidate us like we will keep quiet so they don’t over hear us engaging you. No. That is what? Another threat or warning from you? Like we are going to be more vulnerable to Muslims because of your attacks on us so we should keep quiet and not stand up to you. No. Christian nastiness towards Hinduism is nothing new and neither is Islamic nastiness. Who cares who else reads.

  57. Your post in the next two days better refer to the only thing that Agniveer said about Christianity which was about actions of Christians in history against the libraries and historical data and building and not Christian theology. Don’t even think about bring up Christian theology not one thing and falsely accuse Agniveer of saying anything about that. He is free to do so but he did not here, so you better write about what he did write about Christianity which is this “We also believe that if barabaric religion like Christinity and Islam have not gained popularity than we would have more datas to prove our point conclusively. These two semetic religion have inflicted unparrelled havoc on historical datas and buildings. They destroyed all the libraries/monuments of historical importance which does not confer their beliefs.”

  58. Oh Vic, Agniveer criticized the destruction of ancient knowledge by Christians here on this site which is well understood in the West. He did not even engage in criticizing Christian theology on this article but actions by Christians in history against non-Christian sources of documentation and information. He is free to do so but he didn’t on this article. So are going on about Christian theology when Agniveer hadn’t on this article. Discussion of history is going to come from research from others. So yes showing sites that go into detail of Christian destruction of non-Christian information is valid. Especially a site like that which references its source documentation.

    You talk about mudslinging tactics yet you have repeated gone off name calling. you tout so much how rational you are but you do your bit in mudslinging. Watch your filthy mouth on this site. You think you come off as superior by calling people morons, idiots, retards. No my dear you do not, certainly not rational and cerebral but highly emotional and silly. All you have shown is how thin your skin is and how quickly you get violent and nasty when people stand up to you. My God you talk about teaching Agniveer humility but your post are so full of arrogance and haughtiness and pride.

    My argument is not Agniveer can criticize Christianity because others have, but pointing out that what Agniveer said in a few sentences of Christian action (not even theology) is nothing compared to what others have done. It was a criticism about YOU and YOUR overblown huffing and puffing reaction to barely any few sentences that did not even have anything on Christian theology. You are far from rational, but highly emotional have have yet brought up in any of your posts any thing about what Agniveer actually did write here. You went off a the war path about everything else. Not rational, but highly emotional and irrelevant.

    You are not a Hindu, you stated you are a practicing Christian, and have left your old faith. You already acknowledged you changed your faith, and are not a Hindu. Whether or not you want to go and change it officially, it is a lie that you put down that you are Hindu for the government census. You can make all the excuses you want does not change that you are lying to the government. The government does not force conversion, the census by government relies upon its people to tell the truth and you did not do that.

  59. AGNIVEER SHUD STUDY CHATTAMBI SWAMIKAL TEXT TO KNOW THAT CHRISTIANITY IS FALSE . THEY R WORSHIPPING DEMON BY THEIR DEEDS . THEY SHOULD BE WIPED OFF FROM THIS PLANET . SON OF BITCHES.

    • It is not our faith to say that others worship demons. That is what Christians like Mac and many others say as per their faith. The other paths that other people may follow is not relevant to us. We defend the dharma from their nasty depictions and distortions of our own faith. That is our duty. No one here is advocating any violence against them and neither should you.

    • Our faith seeks not to destroy any other faith. We leave them be. We don’t have to agree with their theology and we are free to express theological disagreement, and we most certainly should speak up against anything that denigrates and abuses Hinduism, but that is all.

      • chattampi swamikal of kerla had written a book on analysis of christianity name christ mat darpanam. i had gone through that book.it was published in 1890. most important to note is that this book was inspired from 13th chapter of satyarth prakash by swami dayanand on christianity

      • Jay, your right, Mac, a.k.a Mr. Spanky can’t think for himself. The proof is the copy and paste BS he keeping doing on here. What a total joke. Clearly the robot age has come upon us. Mr. Spanky is one of the rudimentary kind that can just copies and pastes. No advanced features what so ever. His system has overloaded and now he has gone into infinite loop. Core dump on its way. That will be a final grand act where he floods the page with a copy of the entire book of nonsense, a.k.a the bible. Be careful it can flood your emails around the world. Mr. Spanky, go get a life.

  60. Agniveer also moderate this site for the length of comments. Spammers like Mac post these ridiculously copied and pasted long posts that go on forever.

    • Agniveer you need to do better moderating of this site to make sure it is not hijacked by people bringing up topics that have nothing to do with the article. Don’t let Christian proselytizers like Mac and Vic bring up theology when you did not even bring up theology but referred to history, and use this site for proselytization on top of it. And the length of these posts by guys like them is way too long. This is not a place for a dissertation.

  61. Jay and Ashish

    Thanks for your comments and my doubt is cleared , so have we bharathians made a mistake by making vivekananda a revolutionary of hinduism .
    So were Ram and krishna against these horrific customs because some people again take from ramayan and tell that Ram had ate meat and all. Is there anything relevant.

    • I did not say that about Vivekananda. I said to read the whole context of what he actually wrote which was not about promoting beef eating but about how Smritis are local and age specific while the Vedas are eternal. In fact he showed evolution and progress from the Smritis. He did a lot of good work for the time for Hinduism.

    • I don’t see the big deal about eating other meats (besides beef) and seafood like poultry, lamb, fish etc… you are allowed to eat meat and seafood in Hinduism, it is not mandatory for all Hindus to be strict vegetarians. Vegetarianism is seen as better and is encouraged if you are able to do it, but meat eating (beef excluded) is not forbidden. Most Hindus I know including family members eat meat of some sort (but not beef) and/or seafood. So for me it matters not if Ram and Krishna ate other meats. Their spiritual teachings does not hinge on being vegetarian or not.

      • FYI I say this as a vegetarian. A person is not necessarily a better person just because he or she does not eat meat. The Dalai Lama eats meat, and i think he is further along the spiritual path than I. He tried but his body could not take a pure vegetarian diet. Lots of friends I know also tried vegetarianism but is was not right for their bodies. Some did stick to it. When I look to Ram or Krishna, I don’t care about their diet. I am interested in what they taught. With regards to meat eating in general, I think not everyone can or should. But what we should be concerned about is how livestock are treated while alive and how they are killed. There is no need for them to suffer. While alive they should be treated well, and when time to slaughter them it should be done with the least amount of suffering. There is a woman here named Temple Grandin http://www.templegrandin.com/ who is an amazing woman who worked with slaughterhouses to create more humane practices so the animals suffer very little. She is also amazing because she has autism. Why would a person who cares about animals work in the slaughterhouses? Well people who care for animal welfare probably are most needed in the slaughterhouses to make sure animals are not suffering needlessly. Her work was very beneficial and helped improve the standards for slaughterhouses. Buy from companies who engage in animal welfare – like free range, and no cage, etc… If you can be a vegetarian, that is good, that is not the be all end all.

  62. These jesus slaves are such morons. The run around talking about some living god. they actually don’t understand that is hurting their cause not helping. In Dharmic faiths it is clear that God is not born. So when you say God is born you make your god wimpy and not really a GOd. Just a man masquerading as a God. Some of my good friends are Sikh and that is what they also point out. God is not born. If we believe that, we open the door for God being born as dog, elephant or anything else. God is beyond being born. God is just the highest state of consciousness in all the universes. If these retard jesus freaks don’t get that, they really have some major religious ego mental problems.

  63. Jay , I have a small doubt that is when we search internet we find that swami vivekanada advised meat and beaf and he even ate meat in america . he says ancient brahmins were considered non hindus unless they eat meat.

    • First the whole context is important. Agniveer already wrote an article on how there is no beef in the Vedas and went to explain the misconceptions that have been promoted. Vivekananda wrote that in reference to Smritis (not the Vedas) being limited in time to a particular age and local customs while the Vedas are eternal. Plus he does not reference where he got that it ever such a time that it was ok for Brahmins to eat beef, so have to take that statement with a grain of salt. Nevertheless the context Vivekananda brought that up was in reference to Smritis being particular to an age and then age related practices reforming and stopping in the next age and not to the eternity of the Vedas.

      “…But beyond this there is a still greater difficulty. There are two sorts of truth we find in our Shâstras, one that is based upon the eternal nature of man — the one that deals with the eternal relation of God, soul, and nature; the other, with local circumstances, environments of the time, social institutions of the period, and so forth. The first class of truths is chiefly embodied in our Vedas, our scriptures; the second in the Smritis, the Puranas. etc. We must remember that for all periods the Vedas are the final goal and authority, and if the Purânas differ in any respect from the Vedas, that part of the Puranas is to be rejected without mercy. We find, then, that in all these Smritis the teachings are different. One Smriti says, this is the custom, and this should be the practice of this age. Another one says, this is the practice of this age, and so forth. This is the Âchâra which should be the custom of the Satya Yuga, and this is the Achara which should be the custom of the Kali Yuga, and so forth. Now this is one of the most glorious doctrines that you have, that eternal truths, being based upon the nature of man, will never change so long as man lives; they are for all times, omnipresent, universal virtues. But the Smritis speak generally of local circumstances, of duties arising from different environments, and they change in the course of time. This you have always to remember that because a little social custom is going to be changed you are not going to lose your religion, not at all. Remember these customs have already been changed. There was a time in this very India when, without eating beef, no Brahmin could remain a Brahmin; you read in the Vedas how, when a Sannyasin, a king, or a great man came into a house, the best bullock was killed; how in time it was found that as we were an agricultural race, killing the best bulls meant annihilation of the race. Therefore the practice was stopped, and a voice was raised against the killing of cows. Sometimes we find existing then what we now consider the most horrible customs. In course of time other laws had to be made. These in turn will have to go, and other Smritis will come. This is one fact we have to learn that the Vedas being eternal will be one and the same throughout all ages, but the Smritis will have an end. As time rolls on, more and more of the Smritis will go, sages will come, and they will change and direct society into better channels, into duties and into paths which accord with the necessity of the age, and without which it is impossible that society can live. Thus we have to guide our course, avoiding these two dangers; and I hope that every one of us here will have breadth enough, and at the same time faith enough, to understand what that means, which I suppose is the inclusion of everything, and not the exclusion. I want the intensity of the fanatic plus the extensity of the materialist. Deep as the ocean, broad as the infinite skies, that is the sort of heart we want. Let us be as progressive as any nation that ever existed, and at the same time as faithful and conservative towards our traditions as Hindus alone know how to be….”

    • @Hari

      Vivekanada was not a Sanskrit master. He was under false impression that Max Muller and his team has good intention to translate ‘sacred-texts’. He believed them blindly, hence the confusion.

      Meat eating is strictly prohibited in Vedas. So there is no question of consuming beef.

      • Excellent point Ashish. Vivekanda was not a Sanskrit master. That is a common thing many Sanskrit scholars know.

    • It is called Mahaprasad. Eating is about faith. If you faith is weak, you will eat veggies only. However, again eating is about faith, let it not become a stumbling block for your brother. If his conscience has a stumbling block, do not eat for your brother’s sake in his presence. And always thank the Provider (JEHOVAH-JIREH: “The Lord will Provide).

      Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh
      Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh
      Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh

      Adonai Elohim Tzva’ Ot.

      Asher Hayah
      V’ Hoveh V’ Yavo.

    • It is called Mahaprasad.

      On youtube, just type “mass animal sacrifice” or “Gadhimai animal sacrifice” and see hindus brutally (jhatka) kill thousands of cows in one single event. It is vedic brutality. They even dont know how to kill an animal.

      Eating is about faith. If you faith is weak, you will eat veggies only. However, again eating is about faith, let it not become a stumbling block for your brother. If his conscience has a stumbling block, do not eat for your brother’s sake in his presence. And always thank the Provider (JEHOVAH-JIREH: “The Lord will Provide).

      Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh
      Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh
      Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh

      Adonai Elohim Tzva’ Ot.

      Asher Hayah
      V’ Hoveh V’ Yavo.

      • This is a spiritual subject and it is my domain, I will explain to you. Koshar or Halal is a God approved method of killing an animal. In Koshar killing they take a very sharp knife, twist the neck so the animal feels little pain. The shochet needs to cut through the Trachea, Esophagus, carotid artery and the jugular vein. Both of these shield the esophagus and trachea at the place where the cut is to take place. This would lead to a fairly quick bleed out with the animal becoming nonsensical in a matter of seconds. The brain stops receiving blood supply and oxygen; the animal is clinically dead without any more of the pain.

        Whereas in vedic Jhatka method. The animal’s body goes into shock and the life is trapped into the body for a long while as it bleeds thru. This is the MOST brutal way of killing an animal.

        In modern times, they have invented new method at commercial killings. They give very high powered shock directly to the head and the brain stops working.

        Pain is felt by the animal, if its brain is still working.

      • So, when you twist someone’s neck, you feel very little pain, huh. And you are an authority in Jewish methods of killing, I believe. Wow! You should be awarded a Nobel for this piece of shit. So, when the head is severed from the body in jhatka, does the brain stop receiving blood supply and oxygen from the body or it does not, moron?

      • For Koshar method I gave you the scientific reason already. They do not twist the neck to break it or to suffocate it. They twist the neck to get the right spot as also the animal should feel little pain in that its body would not go in shock. It only takes few seconds.

        In Jhatka method, the body goes in shock, it hardens and traps both blood and life in the body. Then gradually for minutes as it starts to loosen up and bleed, the life lives the body painfully. This is extreme brutality.

        God has made mankind the Lord over all living things. That does not mean that you have to treat animals so brutally.

      • Scientific reason! Are you kidding me? Are there are any such points in the neck where an animal feels little pain when its throat is being slit?

        I would ask the readers to look at how animals are killed in the kosher method in youtube and judge for themselves if that poor animal writhes in pain or not.

        In jhatka, the brain is severed from the body. We know that the brain interprets the signals from the body that it receives through the nervous system via the spinal column. Now, theoretically, in jhatka when the brain is no longer receiving any signals from the body, it is plausible to assume that the the pain generated in the system is not being interpreted at all and hence not felt although we can never say that with certainty. It is amazing that you will go to any length to defend such a cruel practice.

      • In commercial butchering , they use high powered electric shock. Have you heard the term “red meat”? It is full of blood, the tissues hold the blood although the animal is dead. The animal instantly dies because the high powered electric shock given directly to their head FRIES their brian in an instant. The animal is dead instantly but the body cannot recognize it, it goes into shock and holds the blood in its tissues. Jhatka method is the same kind but extremely brutal. With Jhatka method, the animal will still walk a few feet before its senses starts to realize and it fall. The shock contracts the muscles and the tissues hold the blood and life in shock.

        I will contain on this blog with one statement. Vedic sacrifice of Jhatka is EXTREMELY BRUTAL. I have already explained to you the scientific reason of clean Koshar kill. But for you I have a video proof. You can see it for yourself. You do not need no further proof and there are many vedic sacrifice videos on youtube which are self-explanatory. You decide.

        Here is the link

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quvkfkU-KZk

        and the title of the video is “Animal Sacrifice at Gadhimai Festival “. There is a lot more videos on vedic sacrifice, brutal enogh to make me loose my appetite, on youtube.

      • I did watched the video. That is what I said, it takes few seconds and the animal should feel little pain for a while as it gives up its life. Animal moves because of the blood letting, it has to be that way. It is the most efficient method approved by God to kill an animal. Koshar is one slit………period.

        Whereas Jhatak traps both life and blood in the body for a longer while and it is the most brutal way of killing an animal. Even the big cats (tigers and lions) dont kill their prey that way. They bite at the neck draining the blood from the main vein. Jhatka method is more wild and brutal than those big cats.

        I do hunting and fishing. Both gracefully and with respect for the lives of animals I kill for food.

        Do U even understand when I say “the life and blood are trapped in Jhatka method for a longer while”? Do U understand the meaning of it? German nazis wanted to kill all non-blue-eyed people and that is what they did. And you are showing me a video of those nazis BIG LIES to support your idiocy of brutal vedic killing of animals!

        The sting of death is in every life. Every life feels the sting of death when the life is about to pass away. Let us not make it a sting of death as BRUTAL.

      • Unfortunately, the dead animals will not be able to give us a first-hand account of their ordeal. In any case, I have already given you the reason as to why the jhatka method (the severance of the head from the torso from a single blow of a sharp object) should be painless (It is an assumption though). You simply do not make sense when you wildly assume that it is more painful and brutal than the kosher method.

      • Chicken’s neck is so small that it is difficult to Koshar a chicken and it also has feathers. They cut the chicken’s whole neck and you can see the chicken will still walk all over and flutter its wings. A beheading can be a messy and extremely painful thing to see, let alone experience. It has been shown that random brain activity can continue for many minutes, ending in a flurry of activity reminiscent of a brain seizure.

        Jhatka method TRAPS the life and blood both inside the body as it goes in SHOCK and it is the most cruel method. When they go deer hunting they usually either shoot right at the heart or brain, the deer will collapse on the spot. If shot at any other part of the body the deer will run half a mile and die in pain.

      • We are not comparing jhatka with a fatal shot to the heart or to the brain. You will need to understand the mechanism of pain in order to come to a conclusion. If the brain does not receive pain impulses from the body, how will it know pain? You will have to watch the Russian headless dog experiment video for more. I am not providing the link, just search in Youtube.

      • Try experimenting yourself at home. Catch a lizard (readily available at home) and cut its tail. You will see that the tail would move for minutes together and lizard will live. In Jhatka when you cut the animals head with one stroke, its body goes in shock and tightens the muscles. So its tissues holds blood, which gives life to its body. The brain works and the spin also receives and sends impulses and IT DOES FEEL PAIN for a long while.

        In one of my above posts, I have mentioned 7 commands God gave to Noah. This is the last one “not to eat flesh cut from a LIVING animal “. This is the wisdom of the law. You DO NOT CUT A LIVING ANIMAL INTO PIECES. You have to first kill it and then cut it into pieces.

      • There is a limit to sophistry. The lizard’s tail is detachable from the body and the lizard can regrow a tail. The starfish also has this ability. For more see this link:

        http://knowledgesalad.com/useful/why-does-a-severed-lizards-tail-still-move/

        Try to understand as to how we feel pain and why some feel that a quick decapitation is painless or comparatively less painful than other methods of slaughtering. And what is this wisdom of not cutting up into pieces of a “living animal” that you keep harping on? Are you trying to suggest that the poor animal does not feel any pain when it is being killed?

      • SDC, I have already explained to you in details . I have given you both scientific reason and spiritual from the Scriptures, I am again going to quote the scientific reason.

        “The shochet (knife) needs to cut through the Trachea, Esophagus, carotid artery and the jugular vein. Both of these shield the esophagus and trachea at the place where the cut is to take place. This would lead to a fairly quick bleed out with the animal becoming nonsensical in a matter of seconds. The brain stops receiving blood supply and oxygen; the animal is clinically dead without any more of the pain.”

      • Either one has to go through these 2 processes of slaughter and give us an insight into the amount of pain generated which is impracticable or one has understand the mechanism of pain to come to any rational conclusion. In a brain dead person also, the body lives but the person is declared clinically dead. When the brain dies, we are at a point of no return. When in kosher, the connection between the body and the brain is still intact through the spinal column, the brain is able to interpret the pain signals from the body. In fact, the kosher method is in some ways similar to strangulation in so far as the trachea is severed thereby hindering the supply of air.

  64. The only way to destroy foundation of christianity is by spreading chattambi swamikal teachings across india . He was a great man . If this guy is trying to hijack our website we shud either immediately sack him or we shud convert him by agniveer iniation , because these creeds are enemies of this country . when christianity is loosing in west , they r now trying to fool indians. Indian swamis shud not just medidate in den , they shud come forward .
    They shud clearly differentiate between vedic and non vedic people or aryan and non aryan .Sanatanis shud not be shocked to see aghoris and nath yogis . They r non vedic and non aryan and are not part of vedic culture , even though they orginated from vedic peoples.Animism and cannibalism is not vedic even though they worship cosmic energy which vedas prescribe . donot confuse with non vedic sects . we shud immediately stop these non vedic rituals .

    • Then counter his arguments that he makes here but don’t try to convert him back. You make him the center then you revolving around changing him. This is not a thread about him. This is about Ram. When they try to hijack the thread speak up and counter what they said.

      As for what is Vedic or not, let us not be intolerant like other faiths have shown towards difference within their ranks and towards other faiths. Point out if something is Vedic or not is useful and informative but any non vedic practices that do not violate the law or is not unhealthy I don’t think we should have stopped. Tolerance and diversity is Sanatana Dharma strength. I don’t think cannabalism is a problem in India in any faith, what an odd thing to bring up. That is more a pacific island thing. Plus it is illegal anyway.

      • What do you want to say about Aghoris? Arent they vedic people? What about devadashi pratha (temple prostitution) practiced by brahmins? What about Sati pratha? What about child marriage and dowry? Are these all not vedic practice? Veda calls meat mahaprasad? In vedic sacrifices they kill by jhatka, the most unimaginable and brutal practice I have ever seen. Why dont you stop those practices? Do you try to stop them? Purushamedha, Balamedha and Ashwamedha are all vedic practices. Do U follow them? Why do you have to ring the bell when you go to temple?

      • As I said before, you keep posting false things about Vedas and Dharmic people. I asked you before Mr. Spanky, if you are going to make a claim about either, provide proof from an approved translated copy of the Vedas:

        1. Tell use how translated the that copy of the Vedas

        2. Which verse you are talking about

        3. Which Vedic group approves it

        4. Where can I go buy or checkout a copy of it.

        5. Who published that copy of the Vedas.

        You did not even do a proper Perva Paksha and you make up shit about us. Before you make claims about us, it is important to first understand where we stand not what some christian extremist says where we stand. If you just want to play the game of making up shit, you will not convince anyone. It sounds to me like you want to spread lies to try and convert. Seriously you come on this site and try and do that, wrong place man. Here many people want to learn the truth, and your lies about the Vedic faith will get you no where. You really are a sick and perverted person.

        And in regards to jesus and his so called place of rest. They actually do not know if the one they claim is the real one. They are assuming it. As I said before, Christianity is a fabricated religion. It was made up by the Romain emperor constantie for power. He needed to create a book, so he took out of the hundreds of different christian books that contradicted each other only the ones that didn’t. In was only a handful that didn’t. And even those contract each other, but they contract each other the least compared to the other books. Your butt buddy constantie killed off anyone else that supported any of the other books. We still have remanence of the books that were excluded from the bible. And christains today are stuck in a quagmire. They don’t know what to do about it. Because much of the other books contradict constantie’s bible. It’s so funny to see all this. And the most important point is Jesus didn’t even write any of his shit down. The fact that the religion is history centric, no one can replicate what he did, so now you have to believe in secondary source. WEAK. With the Vedas, people can replicate the experience what the Rishis have done. So the source is the highest state of experience during meditation and Yoga. And people have replicated and we keep it current. Unlike your christian crap where it isn’t current and unreproducible. The biggest joke on earth is the christian religion with its contradictions and fake bullshit where it won’t teach people the biggest and highest proof of all. How to reproduce the experience that their top dog had so everyone can become the jesus. Instead there jesus was a power hunger retard that just wanted to make people follow him. Message of God is against that. We don’t need intermediaries, we just need God.

  65. The only thing Agniveer said in reference to Christianity on this article is this “We also believe that if barabaric religion like Christinity and Islam have not gained popularity than we would have more datas to prove our point conclusively. These two semetic religion have inflicted unparrelled havoc on historical datas and buildings. They destroyed all the libraries/monuments of historical importance which does not confer their beliefs.”

    That Christians and Muslims have destroyed non-Christian and non-Muslim information is something that is said in Western countries as well. Agniveer has said nothing new that Westerners have not already said. So if you have a problem with that, then you have a problem with many in the West to begin with.

    • And this “The only thing of significance regarding theory of evolution, we want to state here is that it was a tool which was invented to challenge the draconian supremacy of church. The church use to claim that this world was created by God out of nothing and the age of this Univerese is not more than 10000 years. By the help of evolutionary theory scientific world challenged the supremacy of churh and overcame the clergy.)”

      But that was not about Christianity it was more this this author’s view on evolution theory and its purpose.

    • Here is just one link that has nothing to do with Hinduism or Indians on this. There is a lot of work in the West extremely critical of Christianity and its devastating destruction of ancient knowledge. So if you have a problem with that you have a problem with a lot of Westerners and Agniveer’s reference to such destruction in a few sentences on this article is nothing compared to that http://freetruth.50webs.org/A1.htm

      • My fellow Hindus this site is actually worth going through each its sections,each of the tabs http://freetruth.50webs.org/Index.htm . Let yourself know how Westerners have criticized Christianity. Christianity is not from Europe. It is from the Middle East. Jesus is not a European, is is not a White man, but a Middle Eastern Jew. Europeans were converted and often times not gently. Every nasty thing they have said about Hinduism they first said it to Europeans and ancient European religions, then to the people in the Americas and Africa they encountered.

      • The term “Ancient of Days” and “Lord of Hosts” stands for Yeshua Ha Mashaich.

        Jesus said: Before Abraham was, I AM (Yah).

    • It is still there in London museum and else where. They have coins from Abraham’s time. The cylinder of Cyrus is still there. They still have the mummy of Pharoah of Egypt intact, whom Moses faced. Also Jesus’ cave and cave of machpelah were all patriarchs and matriarchs were laid is still there. Tomb of Rachel is there. House of Jesus Christ, Soddom and Gommorah are visitor’s places. There are so much biblical archeology of ancient times still there.

      What do you have? temples!!!!

  66. “So again request you to let us follow our own path. If you find it troubling, develop more websites like this, teach your people about vedas and upanishads. Tell them about your Gods, and you can do all of this without involving Christianity or Jesus. I have no issues as long as you refrain yourself with that.”

    Every single Christian should follow this advice, including you and Mac. If you Christians have said nothing ever about Hinduism and stuck only to the bible without speaking of Hinduism, then there would be no need for us to say anything about Christianity, to counter the false things you say. But not in any of the centuries has Christianity done that and neither have you or Mac in your comments here. Agniveer has the right to counter claims by Christians in his writings.

    • Hindu word is a foreign word, its a persian word. Those other people of middle-east called the residents of Indus valley as Hindus. So phonetic variance is there like Indu, Indi, Indus, Hindi, Hindu, Shindhu and Brits called us Ind-ian. There is no such thing as hinduism. Moghuls specifically used this word to differentiate themselves from us. There were hundred of small kings and tribes. They were not united as Bharat. It was Brits who united today’s India.

      I will give you the four way classification of the religions of this world.

      Daniel Defoe described the original definition as follows: “Religion is properly the Worship given to God, but ’tis also applied to the Worship of Idols and false Deities.” At the turn of the 19th century, in between 1780 and 1810, the language dramatically changed: instead of “religion” being synonymous with spirituality, authors began using the plural, “religions”, to refer to both Christianity and other forms of worship. Therefore, Hannah Adams’s early encyclopedia, for example, had its name changed from An Alphabetical Compendium of the Various Sects… to A Dictionary of All Religions and Religious Denominations.

      In 1838, the four-way division of Christianity, Judaism, Mahommedanism (archaic terminology for Islam) and Paganism was multiplied considerably by Josiah Conder’s Analytical and Comparative View of All Religions Now Extant among Mankind. Conder’s work still adheres to the four-way classification, but in his eye for detail he puts together much historical work to create something resembling our modern Western image: he includes Druze, Yezidis, Mandeans, and Elamites [Persians/Indians] under a list of possibly monotheistic groups, and under the final category, of “polytheism and pantheism”, he lists Zoroastrianism, “Vedas, Puranas, Tantras, Reformed sects” of India as well as “Brahminical idolatry”, Vaishnavism, Shivism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Lamaism, “religion of China and Japan”, and “illiterate superstitions”.

  67. @ VICJAGS

    There was a swami hailed even by vivekananda as the perfect man in northern kerala. He was Chattambi swamikal . He was a great critique of christianity at time where resources to study history of religion was difficult . Now we have internet.He was saviour of sanatana dharma from evil missionaries to some extent . But no one listened to him properly which is reason why hindus are becoming minorities in kerala. .Here thing is no on is objecting jesus . the very term christ is krishna in greek it is kristos . 300 years after death of jesus paul the pharisee who has not even seen jesus and who was very much against christianity ( actual term would be jesuism ). He is father of christianity . what he did was he was agent of mixing up . Crucifixion was punishment given for blasphemy in rome and many part of europe .Paul , he mixed every aspects of roman mythological heroes , sun god mithra , spanish hero who is represented as one died for whole mankind in spanish folks and other myths such that no one could understand it properly.He assosciated these characteristics to physical jesus and made him a god. Moreover sun worship has asosciation with cross . Everything which christianity has is paganism and judaism fused to physical jesus.Even christianity has absurd teaching that animals have no souls. jesus resurrection is a mere myth as stephen knapp has said in his book of “vedic influence in ancient cultures”.It is actually after paul emperor constantine used pauls ideologies further to added further stories . even miracles , giving bread to thousand is based on roman mythology. jesus was no god or divine . What constantine did was destroying pagan shrines by grafting and copying pagan rituals to his belief for political dominance. But still they call other pagans as evil and papish . So one can understand that christianity is based on combination of various pagan beliefs currupted and mixed yet calling others evil means they donot no what they are believing.Even greek gospels have nothing to do with christianity. paul and his followers copied greek gospels , and return of christ is actually paganism inspired from east.This is how this religion spread , that is blasphemy and destruvtion for political dominance of rome . When we seperate pagan elements one by one christianity is left with nothing . So what christians did was inculturation that destroyed rome and its culture . We donot know may be jesus was inspired , but there are many questions regarding his historicity still now and debate is going now . John the baptist a mandean was the one who baptized jesus and that religion has roots in indian philosophy . they didnot start any religion or anything . it was spirituality there . So what i want to say is that sanatana dharma is not a man made religion . You donot need to have converted to christianity as jesus inspired by john was not a crusader.By believing in our dharma u can respect jesus . Christ has nothing to do with jesus. It was added to jesus later . That is whole story of jesus is based on krishnaism and buddhism . To be frank we still donot have actual figure of jesus before paul. Modern scholars are unclear about the very historicity of jesus . Even gospels were not written eye witness . It was added to him later by 150 yrs after the so called death of jesus . Christianity is 90 percent politics and 10 percent spirituality. By converting u have made our great saints fools because they fought for our dharmas revival during colonial rule.These christian missionaries donot respect our dharma , why because by accusing one religion only they can believe . You can visit website of chattambi swamikal on internet to know what i told . Many christians in kerala are now understanding fault of conversion to foreign faith.

    • Hari, let us not get side tracked by these Christian proselytizers who are trying to hijack this thread for conversion. Don’t assume what he tells you is true that he was ever a Hindu. Even if he was so what. His conversion is his own business, and has zero impact in our saints. It does not make them fools just because he converted. That is silly. When he comes to this site to proselytize promoting Christianity and denigrating Hinduism then it is our dharma is to speak up against that. Don’t bother trying to make him the center of this thread by trying to get him to realize the error of his ways in converting out. I think Mac and Vic are pretending to have been Desi and former Hindus as slick ways to ingratiate themselves to Hindus and lure us into conversion. Oh they converted so maybe there is something to it and we should as well. Don’t fall for it. Stick to countering his arguments. But like I said even if he were once a Hindu so what. He has stated he is a practicing Christian, and he is here not writing in a calm way on the points in the article of this thread that he disagrees with but telling people to shut up, trying to silence us, and also denigrating Hinduism while promoting Christianity in his comments just like Mac. They want Christianity off limits but Hinduism not, and want what ugly things they say about Hinduism to go unchallenged by us, while having repeated put Hinduism down here.

    • Apostle Thomas came and converted about 300 half naked brahmins (suryavanshis) doing sun worship at the coast. Apostle Thomas performed a miracle sitting in his boat. He took water in his palm and sent it to his God and it never came down in full view of those 300 brahmins. He also spoke in their language.

      Apostle Paul was a rabbi (teacher of law) and a pharisee. His name was Saul until Jesus visited him and changed his name to Paul. Saul was in charge of executing those who follow Jesus Christ (The Way). The Sanhedrin had appointed Saul to execute Jesus followers. Paul was the student of Raban Gamaliel, the Elder, author of Mishnah and Talmud; a Member of Sanhedrine (jewish court) as also he was the neighbour of Jesus Christ in Jerusalem. Saul executed a lot of early christians before Jesus appeared to him on the way to Damacus and Jesus said: “Saul, why do you persecute me?”. This is after Jesus’ resurrection. Saul was blinded for 3 days and night.

    • Animal do you spirits (ruah) not soul, soul is the covering of the spirit. As Paul says: “Whether their (animal’s) spirits go up or down, I dont know”. The reason the animals are dumb is that when the Serpent came and seduced Adam and Eve; and they ate the fruit, which God told them not to eat. All animals remained dumb, they didnt stopped Adam and Eve from eating. So God took away their tongue means “ability to speak” like humans. Until then they were speaking with Adam and Eve.

      Secondly, christianity came to India the same decade Jesus resurrected.

      Thirdly, if you understand Paul, you understand 40% of the scriptures. He was a pharisee Rabbi. He had two citizenship Greek and Israeli. He spoke more than 3 languages.

  68. @VicJags

    You didn’t make sense in any of your posts. Why are you so hell bent on changing Agniveer’s stance on Christianity? Isn’t it his website? He has every right to express what he feels right?

    For once even if we agreed that Agniveer is novice, has zero knowledge etc on Bible, Jesus. He didn’t have time to read all of its visitors comments, so if you think that by posting few random comments can get you an apology then you’re mistaken.

    Why don’t you make your own website and put the rebuttals there? Publish the articles on social media or where ever you feel can fetch you some readers & let the world know Agniveer’s level of ignorance.

    • Yes he does have a right to express his counter arguments to what Christians have said about Hinduism, which is what he did on this site. You want him to stop talking about Christianity, then first Christians need to stop talking and denigrating Hinduism. Agniveer very much has the right. Christians should take their own advice about limiting what they express about their feeling on other faiths. You are cunningly trying to stop people from speaking up against what things Christians have said by saying they have no right. You Christians say smack about Hindus so expect that we are going to have our own feeling which we will express, and our own counter arguments back. You don’t tell what us we can express. You are not the boss of us, especially when there has been zero limit on the nasty, ugly viscous things you Christians have said about Hinduism. By doing that you open your self up to criticism in any way we want to express it. There is something called freedom of speech, which protects freedom to say what others find offensive. Since Christian have no interest in changing any one of their many websites insulting Hinduism then we are going to counter it with more free speech. It is us standing up to you and the nasty things you say that upsets you and you want to silence us. This is not Pakistan, where the government terrorism people into silence but punishing people according to blasphemy laws. You want Christianity off limits but not Hinduism, you want to intimidate Hindus from speaking out and expressing themselves especially in response to what Christians have written, but you Christians say all the ugly things about Hinduism you feel like expressing.

    • @Zakir Naik

      — Isn’t that your first complaint against Zakir Naik. —

      NO our complaint is against HATE SPEECH. Every human being has a right to express anything what he feels, unless he is not inciting VIOLENCE. This is freedom, tolerance which you slaves of Jesus will never understand.

      Agniveer team posted rebuttal after rebuttal of Zakir’s claims, they demanded a ban on him only after he delivered hate speech against non-believers.

      —When I present my case,—
      That’s my point, where’s your case? Where are your counter arguments backed by facts? All i see is load of rhetorical posts demanding an apology without putting any facts?

      Now, this might get into your peanut size brain that people can be offended by anything.

      A guy might believe in Mickey Mouse as son of God. People who’re making cartoon of MM are offending him, what should he do then?

  69. “fight you people”

    Fight huh.

    You people huh.

    Interesting. One the one hand you and Mac try to pass your selves off as one of us (Desi, or even Hindu) to ingratiate yourself like wolves in sheeps clothing, but your aggression comes through, and that you see us as you people the enemy, comes through.

    • You are committing fraud by not telling the truth to the government census that you are not Hindu in anyway but in fact a practicing Christian. The government census is meant to capture accurate data on the population. You knowingly provide false information instead of the fact that you are a practicing Christian not a Hindu.

      Wow you are going to teach Agniveer some humility if he does not voluntarily confess his mistake. Interesting choice of words. Now if you actually spent time commenting on what Agniveer wrote and less time trying to proselytize and denigrating Hinduism. Here your comments are showing your cockiness and lack of humility in your attempts in comparative religion.

      Agniveer should moderate this site better to prevent people from hijacking this site to proselytize their own faith.

    • These are your words in your final plea comment below “When I accepted Christ, it took me sometime to come out of original faith…” You are not a Hindu by your own admission, Your name does not make you a Hindu, your false report to government census does not make you a Hindu.

  70. Now remind me exactly which comment of mine I wrote as you put in quotes “You and Mac go PROSELYTIZE elsewhere”

    It is about proselytizing, sad that neither you or Mac can be honest about that. You do that by pretending this is all just an intellectual logical exercise, but your true feelings come out, the violence and menace comes out in your comments. You pretend it is only about logic and you are above it all, but I think you use the rhetoric of logical arguments to hide behind. Heed your own words about not talking nonsense about other faiths.

    • Good. Thank you. There are so many comment threads so if you put something in quotes, also refer it when what you are quoting is not directly above in the comment you respond to.

  71. @Vignesh

    —They will enjoy to standby and watch two of their enemies fighting among —

    Don’t jump to conclusions, We’re enemy of none but to people who are against humanity. Show us one article of this website which instigate violence against Muslims or any other sect for that matter.

    Our Muslims brothers know the intention of Agniveer. Just go to FB page of Agniveer & see how many muslims liked it.

  72. Who cares if you are desi even if that were the case? You come here and denigrate demonize and insult our faith in repeated attempts to convert us to your faith and you wonder what you did wrong? Why were are not goo goo ga ga over you?

    This is not a site for prostelyzation. Belief what you want, but don’t come here insulting Hinduism to get us to convert.

    • It is you who ignorant, understand that, lost in your Middle Eastern Jewish mythology that you think is truth that everyone else in the entire world must follow. Our ancestral faith saves us, our ancestral way of seeing the Divine saves us, and has for thousands of years. And we don’t desperately need the entire world to follow our faith, we love others enough to let them not be Hindu, and let them find their own way to God.

  73. Another dishonest method of conversion by pretending to be Desi. Do you think we care? Do you think that will make us more vulnerable to your proselytization? You are wrong. It is better that a white man than a desi convert denigrating Hinduism. Any desi especially one who was once a Hindu that comes to this site demonizing Hinduism like you and Vicjag just like a white man is far worse. A Desi who converts to Christianity is one thing, I don’t agree with it but that is his choice, but for that Desi to come and denigrate Hinduism anywhere and especially on a Hindu site is quite another thing. So White men Mac and Vicjag, stop pretending to be Desi. That is a bad tactic.

    Agniveer, should moderate this site better and not allow these hijackers to use this this for conversion purposes.

  74. Brother,

    Hindu is citizenship. I am hindu by birth and Bharatvarsh is my motherland. I am my mamas boy..

    Hindu is not your property, it is my forefather’s property. My flesh and blood, I love as surely I worship the Living God.

    And, I love you too, as you are my flesh and blood.

    • You are so lame Mac. You are not a Hindu. You spent countless comments denigrating Hinduism to promote Christianity. You made it clear you are Christian, so stop pretending to be one of us Hindus. No one needs religious bigotry and demonization twistedly passed off as love.

  75. I am a desi, brother. Why do you hate me? Why do you hate me so much and disregard my beliefs? What wrong have I done?

    I came here to my own blood brothers to share wisdom and truth.

    And, now you hate me! Why dont U crucify me, if it pleases U!

  76. Mr. Spanky, seriously man, you have not solved the original problem. You have convinced your own biased mind, but you have not convinced anyone else. As I pointed out before, the original sin issue is reeking with history centrism. The fact that you put someone else’s sins on all of humanity is a straw man argument. It is the original straw man argument. It is a classic game, you first make a claim that humanity has a problem. And then you claim your religion and only your religion has the solution.

    It reminds me of a movie I saw years ago. Where some european power went and spread a disease, secretly, in an innocent community. After that, they were the ones who came with a treatment for the disease. It was a strategy to make the europeans power look good and win the favor of the community. The people who put the disease in the community was the europeans and than they conveniently came up with a cure for that disease. hmmmmmmm, interesting.

    Story above sounds very similar to christianity. They first inject an idea of original sin into a community and conveniently claim they have a solution which is jesus, the freak. Well the real solution is Meditation, Yoga, and Vedas. With the the trinity of Meditation, Yoga, and Vedas people will not even fall for the ridiculous idea original sin. If you don’t believe in that crap, you are already saved. If instead you believe everyone is divine, you don’t to believe you need some weirdio, a.k.a jesus, to die on a cross for anyone. Only nutt jobs believe that.

    • Tell me my brother, as surely as I worship the living God. Have you not stolen money (laxmidevi) from your mother’s purse or yr granny’s purse!

      Tell me that you never did that.

      Tell me that you never did nothing wrong in your whole life time and that you are the ONLY holy person arya samajist in the whole world and we are fools.

      Tell me from the bottom of your heart if you are a man that you never did anything wrong.

      AND BLESS ME.

    • Original sin is ancestral sin, that mankind shares in the Jewish original man Adam’s sin. That is different from people living life and making mistakes. We have karma for that, but we believe the true essence of people is divine. Life is about learning and growing.

      And no I never stole money or anything else from my family or anyone. We believe that our actions have consequences, Karma. It is empowering. We shape our lives, and we do not live the shadow of anyone else’s errors. The Jewish mythological first man Adam’s mistake is his mistake for him to have worked out, not anyone else.

  77. I actually think you are the same person as Mr. Spanky. The fact that both of you write ridiculously long emails shows to me that both are the same freakin person. You fools are not tricking anyone else. I guess that is what christianity teaches you, to lie.

    • The difference between him and me is that. I am spiritual and he is religious. And we are not one person. I even dont go to church, I AM and I AM is with me.

  78. HI Ankur,

    I agree with you about original sin. It is a straw man argument. It is a perfect way to tell people you are a screwed up person for doing nothing. Christians just claim you are born like that because of some ancient relative that ate some apple or some fruit from a forbidden tree, a.k.a. tree of knowledge. When I hear this, there are a ton of things wrong with it. Aside from the fact that christians are not okay with education and knowledge, but they also believe everyone inherits the sins of their ancestors. And it is only the christians that hold the secret. Isn’t that interesting. Only their god or son of god or holy ghost or what-ever the hell he is suppose to be because Christians can’t get his story right, is the only one who can save you. Convenient. That is what we call the biggest and oldest straw man argument in history.

    Christians a liars and christianity hates education. Why else would their religion be against the adam and eve eating from the tree of knowledge. Loser and fools believe in such shit. no respect for that kind of mentality.

    Let’s also not forget that Christians promote the devouring of a person, jesus, sucking on blood, and pray to torture. I have never seen any religion that worships a torture device.

  79. Oh please you were never a Hindu. You say this to lure Hindus into converting. This is not a site for Christian proselytization. This is not an article about Christianity. You and Mac go proselytize elsewhere.

    • Right. So you say government census lists you as Hindus so you pass your self off as Hindu here. You are committing fraud by not providing correct information on the government census. You are Christian, that is the faith you believe in, not Hinduism and you made that clear.

      • Don’t care about your name. But you are committing fraud by providing false information on the government census. You are a Christian but you lie to the government census about being Hindu. You did change your religion as being Hindu or Christian is not in the government census that your falsely report, it is your faith that you believe in and practice, and your faith is Christianity as you yourself repeatedly said.

        Watch your language here on this site, and knock it off with the name calling. You try to pose yourself as rational and telling everyone to watch how they speak, but fail to follow your own advice.

  80. Agniveer these threads need to be moderated far better. Now you have Christian proselytizers using the thread to convert. This article is not about Christianity yet it has been hijacked by Christians seeing Hindu converts.

    • That is the product of Christianity. To treat everyone else like shit. That is their history and that is their way of life. They have a serious case of insecurity, so they have to demean people by calling them sinners. What kind of retards to that kind of shit. Only a religion that supports the worship of torture and evil. Christianity is clearly a force of destruction and evil

    • Hey,

      You are my flesh and blood, my own race and I dont hate you as surely I worship the Living God, I dont hate you.

      Why art thou afraid and of whom, am I loving you less as your brother, my desi brother?

      And I came to share with you the truth as I understand and make it known and share your truth with me. Do U hate me? Your own blood brother?

      • Right, love huh. You demonize our faith, say we have evil in our psyche, who needs a “love” like yours. You pass of religious bigotry, disrespect and abuse as your love. Desi my ass.

    • Right, you spent a lot of comments proselytizing here on this thread for a person supposedly more interested in chatting just with relatives,friends and colleagues about your Christian gospel.

      The axe of Christian theology. Interesting choice of words. Violent and threatening in fact. You ask us not to denigrate Christianity but then immediately you say you are sure Christian theology is more reasonable than ours. You just cannot help denigrating our faith every chance you get. You and Mac want it one way – Christianity to be off bounds while you heap insult and abuse upon our faith. You should do well to heed your own words to not denigrate others because that is what you, Mac have done repeatedly on this site.

      Agniveer does not have to apologize to you or anyone else. First Christians everywhere must PUBLICLY APOLOGIZE for every single book, every single article of writing, every single website they run demonizing, insulting, abusing, degrading and denigrating Hinduism for the last several centuries, and confess they made a mistake ever comparing Hinduism in the first place and apologize to the Hindu community in all those venues where they ever made references to our faith. Agniveer instead should ban Christian attempts to hijack this forum for the purposes of proselytization. It is one thing to want to respectfully discuss an opposing opinion on what was written. But you did not do that.

      • @VivJags

        LOL apology for what? For saying truth? Every now & then you dimwits get offended when you countered by truth.

        The war was started by your brethren by making false cases against our hero Rama. Now you want us not to make a counter argument?

        Agniveer has send you a clear message. if you will distort our history we will shake your foundation.

      • Yes the war was started by Christians by what they said about Hinduism which is what Agniveer refuted. And you have already put Hinduism down here on this thread.

      • Agreed Ankur,

        The war was started by Christians. They have a double standard. They want everyone to respect their religion, but at the same time completely disrespecting Vedic faith. These people are the most disgusting people on this earth. I have no respect for people like them. I’m still waiting for the apology for Mr. Spanky, a.k.a. mac, and his alter ego vicjags for the insults he spewed at us and the Vedic people at large.

        I demand an apology from Mr. Spanky, a.k.a. mac, and his alter ego vicjags. We are all waiting.

    • @VicJags

      —As per article 25 of the Indian Constitution, you have every right to practice, profess and propagate your religion, but not to denigrate others.—

      All abrahamic religions denigrate the religion of humanity by dividing us into believers & non-believers.

      —But if you do, you will have to face the axe of Christian theology (which I’m sure is more reasonable than that of yours)—

      Then let it be, why are you worrying about us? Stay away and stop spamming this website?

  81. I have already said that God is not a subject of debate and I am not a debater. I am just discussing the truth here from the valuable ancient texts. I am trying to see thru what ancient world was like. Try to analyze this.

    Look almost all the cultures of this world have the flood story. I pointed out what actually happened after Noah’s flood. Where the idolatry was born as recorded in Book of Jubilees. Its also recorded in Book of Jashar. These are the historical books bible refers. These were written in hebrew and are available now to the public.

    Besides the flood stories in each and every culture, we have some other common things like the “pyramid”, “third eye” and “snake” symbolism found in each and every culture. Both this symbols are of Satan, the Great Serpent of Genesis account. Secondly, all those cultures have astrology common, which Book of Enoch mentions by names of the fallen angels who taught mankind those secrets and arts.

    Krishna crushing the seven headed snake, which is the same the Lord (Adonai Yeshua) killed the Leviathan as mentioned in Psalm. Leviathan was a monster sized fish looked like a snake. Behemoth was a monster sized ox as per aggadic literature and Talmud.

    Psalms 74:14: “It was you who crushed the heads of Leviathan and gave him as food to the creatures of the desert.”

    Rashi comments in Talmud: “According to legend this refers to the Leviathan and its mate. God created a male and female Leviathan, then killed the female and salted it for the righteous, for if the Leviathans were to procreate the world could not stand before them.”

    • No Mac you have no problem discussing our Gods and Goddesses. You just want your Jewish God off limits. And yet again the history you pass off is not history but Jewish stories, and you show your interpretation of symbols such as the 3rd eye again done through Jewish mythology lens.

      • Jay,

        Are we not desis? Are we not hindus? Then, why do you hate me, in the first place? You think, I want to convert you. NO, its not my desire and I am not those harvesters of God called missionaries. God’s appointed ones. I dont give a fill in the blanks about it whether you believe or not? On my own account, I cant do nothing. But, I was called by God. And, unless God calls you, you are not saved. He called cyrus and Darius and in His grace called me too. Thats my joy and happiness in few years of my own life time.

        I, as your blood brother wants you to believe in one God nothing else.

        I am here to find truth talking to your own religion and your own belief system. I believe love covers all wrong doings. Am I wrong in your eyes? If so, tell me. If not, share it with me.

        I will not defy my own blood and my own people, as surely as I worship the Living God, I am tell you truth.

      • You are not a Hindu and I don’t care if you are Desi. You spent all this time denigrating Hinduism and promoting Chrsitianty calling it truth for conversion, and trying to get us to believe in your version of the one God. Don’t deny it now. If you truly don’t care if we believe, then stop denigrating Hinduism and promoting Christianity calling it truth. God! You are not even honest about your repeated attempts at conversion.

  82. I agree with you and thanks for your insight. Jesus died so that we may live. I told him, I mul glorify your name amongst the heathens. The gospel has to be brought to them and as Jesus said to Lazarus come out, India needs to come out. We worship the only Living God, the God of power.

    • That is what you don’t get. People are not rejecting God if they don’t think 2000+ year old Middle Eastern Jew Jesus is God. They are rejecting that he is God, and rejecting Middle Eastern Judaism/Christianity as the one way to God.

      We know God through our own ancestral faith and we know God’s love through our own faith and we show our love for God through our own faith.

  83. “I have came here to spank the demon in you. I am here to spank the blindfaith in U, the evil which resides in your psyche.”
    – This is what mac said. Yeah, my thoughts too. seriously, who talks like this. This guy is some kind of scary freaky and even spooky F-d up person. I think we should give this freak a nick name. We should call him Mr. Spanky. LMAF.

    From this day on Mac will be known as Mr. Spanky.

      • You want Mac who is talking nonsense himself by saying he goes by Mac Daddy to give reasons to support his claim. How interesting you do not point out how abusive Mac is to Hindus and tell him not to talk nonsense.

      • How dare you come to a Hindu site and warn us. You expect us to take insults to our faith and nonsense spewed by the likes of Mac. You call our faith stupid, you are an internet troll yourself. This is a Hindu site, so you come here and show some respect, don’t you or any other Christian proselytizer dare call our religion stupid, call our Gods and Goddesses demons, call us evil for believing in them. You Mac and all the rest, need to watch your tongue. This is a warning to you that YOU need to take heed.

  84. Remember Mac is a doing the classic inculturation. He is trying to fit modern science and history of others into his faith. It is basically trying to map out the world and force fit it into your frame of reference. The desert religions do that a lot because they lack the basic understanding of this universe. They play this game with everyone. And they can justify anything by doing that nonsense. Clearly he didn’t make it up, it goes back to the Romain Empire when their boy, Constantine and the Council of Nicea. People like him are just using the refined, but false arguments to justify a false religion. And he is just a tool he doesn’t even know he is being totally used by people from the depths of history. He is Constantie’s bitch.

  85. @mac,again you are liying.jejus say i and my father are one means jejus is god,simple.but one and only jejus is god it’s not true.any man knows his godship he declare it,arjuna see lord krishna is almighty god.osho rajneesh also declare he is a bhagwan.ramkrishna paramhansa,avtar meherbaba.al mansoor says he is god.but people not see,because he imagine god is a very super,high,powerful.god acting a simple man like,because he knows he is a god.but man not acting he is a god.

  86. @mac,Jesus says “I and my Father are one” means it is a philosophy of nonduality in vedanta.the supreme knowledge of vedanta is ‘advaita’ oneness.you think it happen only jejus,ordinary man is impossible.you think Jejus is a god and following his words and prayer to jejus.Hindu philosophy teaches all man are god but potantialy.he forgot his godlyness get bondage in human body.you are hypnotised in self and it is limited.vedanta is a knowledge of dehypnotised of self.tat tavm aasi means you is god.

    • Namaste jai shankar, Well said, but I will correct you on one thing. Vedanta does not say we are all God, it says we are all divine. Christians think the worst of humans. We think the best. Again it shows who sick these christians think. We believe in freedom and love and these Christians believe in oppression and hate. Yes, they claim they love, but how can you love when you say everyone is a sinner. And how can you claim freedom when you say you can only go to god through this one historical person from this historical event and historical time. Total junk. That is oppression and total hate. You can’t go by what they say, go by what they believe. Because even the robber thinks he or she is in the right, but that doesn’t make the robber right. Same goes with the jesus freaks.

    • It is not a philosophy. Father and Son are One God. U still do not understand as it is written: The Son was begotten (means called forth) from the radiance of God’s glory. The Son is the exact representation of Father God Almighty and His express image as the scriptures say. God is One God.

      • Your right, it isn’t a philosophy, father and son being one person or as you say “god” is actually a total joke. It is total nonsense. This weak fool you call Jesus was a just a man. And to finish off sin you needed God to die on the cross. What kind of god is born as a person and dies. Seriously God isn’t born as human. If you open that door you open the door for everything else. That means God can come as a dog or elephant or pig or anything else. Or maybe even a women or even dog shit. You just opened the door for everything. Unlike you I do not demean God by saying God comes as anything at all. God is formless and I don’t insult God by saying he comes as some 3-D person. I pray only to the one formless God, Omkar, that does not come to earth as anything and insult God.

      • God said: The wages of sin is death and there is no redemption of sin without the pouring of the blood of the firstborn. That is the law God gave. Sin was committed in flesh and so it was also repaid in flesh thru His only begotten Son, holy, unblemished and ultimate sacrificial Lamb of God.

        The scriptures says: For everybody has sinned and have fallen short of God’s glory.

        Pslam 53:2 God looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.

        Romans 3:11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.

        Isaiah 59:14Justice is turned back,
        And righteousness stands far away;
        For truth has stumbled in the street,
        And uprightness cannot enter.

        15Yes, truth is lacking;
        And he who turns aside from evil makes himself a prey.
        Now the LORD saw,
        And it was displeasing in His sight that there was no justice.

        16And He saw that there was no man,
        And was astonished that there was no one to intercede;
        Then His own arm brought salvation to Him,
        And His righteousness upheld Him.

        17He put on righteousness like a breastplate,
        And a helmet of salvation on His head;
        And He put on garments of vengeance for clothing
        And wrapped Himself with zeal as a mantle.

        18According to their deeds, so He will repay,
        Wrath to His adversaries, recompense to His enemies;
        To the coastlands He will make recompense.

        19So they will fear the name of the LORD from the west
        And His glory from the rising of the sun,
        For He will come like a rushing stream
        Which the wind of the LORD drives.

        20“A Redeemer will come to Zion,
        And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,” declares the LORD.

        21“As for Me, this is My covenant with them,” says the LORD: “My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring’s offspring,” says the LORD, “from now and forever.”

        God exacts punishment. God is righteous and all His judgments are righteous.

        Numbers: God is not a man that He should lie.

      • YOu keep repeating the same bullshit. You religion of hate doesn’t work against this website of truth. As you can see, no one is defending you because everyone knows you are full of shit. And seriously no one is reading the crap you cut and past on here. You sound like a broken record and a retard.

  87. @mac,science study in matter not nature,because who is man? Nature or somewhat?? Nature will not study himself.nature and god are different when man uneducated.but man knows truth he see,god is nature and nature is god .this is a nonduality the supreme science of vedanta.but nature and god are different this is s Sankhya philosophy purusha and prakruti.morality is the origin of gods nature.ex.water can not be distroy only convert,mind can not be dead,only hide or convert supreme origin atman.so only word is not god all whole cosmos is the god. That is god is not love but love is god.

    • Basically, you are bearing a wrong notion about spirituality and God.

      John 4:24 God is spirit, and His worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

      1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

      John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

      1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

      1 Corinthians 15:42-43 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

      God created two creations, one is this physical creation in which we live and the second is the spiritual creation. He created spirits from the breath of His nostrils and they are in spiritual bodies, which is immortal. Speaking about resurrection, Jesus said:

      Mark 12:2 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

      There are no females in the spiritual world. Woman means taken from man. Adam said: This is the bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh. She (Eve) shall be called Woman. For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother and unite with her and they shall be called one. Woman was made for the companionship and help of the man.

      God sits above the upper waters in unapproachable (lights) from us. You do not glorify or worship the objects of creation, but the only Living God alone. Spirit gives conscience which judges the morality; right and wrong. This conscience is not found in the objects of creation whom you call nature. Nature is physical creation which works as God had commanded it and had set ordinances to govern it. Science is the study of physical nature. Why should you worship it and make God angry? Who is greater the Creator or the creation?

      Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”

      Ecclesiastes 12:7 For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

      Job 34:14-15 If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, all mankind would perish together and man would return to the dust.

      Isaiah 57:16 I will not accuse forever, nor will I always be angry, for then the spirit of man would grow faint before Me–the breath of man that I have created.

      Look how angry God gets at Israel, while talking to Moses.

      Deutronomy 32:15 Then Jeshurun [Israel] became fat and rebelled—
      you became fat, bloated, and gorged.
      He abandoned the God who made him
      and scorned the Rock of his salvation.
      16 They provoked His jealousy with foreign gods;
      they enraged Him with detestable practices.
      17 They sacrificed to demons, not God,
      to gods they had not known,
      new gods that had just arrived,
      which your fathers did not fear.
      18 You ignored the Rock who gave you birth;
      you forgot the God who gave birth to you.

      19 When the Lord saw this, He despised them,
      provoked to anger by His sons and daughters.
      20 He said: “I will hide My face from them;
      I will see what will become of them,
      for they are a perverse generation—
      unfaithful children.
      21 They have provoked My jealousy
      with their so-called gods;
      they have enraged Me with their worthless idols.
      So I will provoke their jealousy
      with an inferior people;
      I will enrage them with a foolish nation.
      22 For fire has been kindled because of My anger
      and burns to the depths of Sheol;
      it devours the land and its produce,
      and scorches the foundations of the mountains.

      23 “I will pile disasters on them;
      I will use up My arrows against them.
      24 They will be weak from hunger,
      ravaged by pestilence and bitter plague;
      I will unleash on them wild beasts with fangs,
      as well as venomous snakes that slither in the dust.
      25 Outside, the sword will take their children,
      and inside, there will be terror;
      the young man and the young woman will be killed,
      the infant and the gray-haired man.

      THIS is the reason there is no peace in Israel.

      • His notion of Spirituality and God is just fine. What you mean by wrong is that it is not YOUR Jewish/Christian mythology’s spirituality and God. There is no peace in Israel because Arabs and Muslims can’t stand losing an inch of land no matter how miniscule in the Middle East to non-Muslims. According to Islam once land has been occupied by Muslims it is Islamic forever, so Israel since it was under Muslim occupancy for centuries belongs to them forever according to their own faith.

      • When God gave them the law and commanded them to worship Him alone. Some of them went and started practicing idolatry. This is the reason God created enemity and made Israel jealous of other christian nations as God speaks to Moses in the above verses. This enemity will remain until Christ, the promised Messiah comes again to judge them in His full glory. Out of the 70 princes God appointed over the 70 tribes of the sons of Noah’s 3 sons, Archangel Michael is the appointed Prince over Israel and Archangel Dobiel was appointed over Persia. Dobiel messed up.

      • @Mac: Read through your posts and it is visible that you are seeing the world through biblical lense, the only thing that you quote are from the bible or from christian sources, and when you say that Rig Veda was non-existent when King Darius lived you are not substantiating how you came to this conclusion. you re just confused as you don’t know how to arrive at a logical conclusion backed by valid enlargements the only thing that you resort to is straw-man , you are giving your own definitions of Vedic religion with your own convoluted understanding of Vedic life cycle which per say is your own invention.
        To have a debate and win in it its mandatory to have an understanding of the topic that you are debating, not just jump to conclusions in your mind and claim victory.
        Pathetic

      • God, the only One Living God is NOT a subject of debate. I am just discussing. Rig veda or its writings or even its trace have not been found in the artifacts of Indus valley civilization from where Indians came. In 6th century BC, Darius I took over all those nations of Persia and put Satraps on each of the nations he conquered including Indus valley. There is no mention of any such hindu gods down there or neither Darius’ records mentions any of them. Darius was otherwise a good king. He allowed people and nations to worship their own gods and goddesses.

        Tell me, how far back can you trace the histrocity of the original veda, Rig veda?

      • Your definition of God and that you believe not fact that only your faith is about a Living God , your Jewish mythology, your dogmatic belief since you bothered to come to a Hindu site and spew your blind belief will be up for debate and that is solely because you bring it up here. The only “history” you know is one distorted by Jewish/Christian beliefs where no other religion is mentioned.

      • I am not against U. I have came here to spank the demon in you. I am here to spank the blindfaith in U, the evil which resides in your psyche.

      • “I have came here to spank the demon in you. I am here to spank the blindfaith in U, the evil which resides in your psyche.”

        lmaf, lol. What kind of freak talks like that. Really “spank”. Mac you sound like some sexual pervert. You are one sick fool.

      • I am not against U. I have came here to spank the demon in you. I am here to spank the blindfaith in U, the evil which resides in your psyche.

        You sad man Mac. The only demon there is the one in your crazy mind, the blind faith well go look in the mirror, the only evil is in your own psyche. It is your sad pathetic bigoted view of the world that is evil. It is all within YOU and how you view difference.

        It is so sad that Christianity teaches you to be such a bigot that you only see demons and evil in all other faiths for no other reason that they are not Christian and are just different.

      • Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers (rebellious angels), against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

        Ephesians 2:2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler (Satan) of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

  88. @naaz,a child born in any country he cry same voice.why all humans laughing same? Why all emotions are same?? All tears are same? Angeryness,peacefullness is not countrywide,why? Relegions are different but nature is one why? Science is one why?

    • Science is the study of the nature God created. We study physical creation in science. Whereas morality is a spiritual thing, so is the Word of God. As it is written: God is love.

      • How did you come up with a new definition of “science”? FYI, science is very well defined. Creationism has not been accepted as a law in case you do not know it as yet, daydreamer. Morality and spirituality are basically subjective in nature.

      • Morality is a spiritual thing and nature is a physical thing. Science or nature do not decide on its own the morality, it is being subjected by the code of law which God commanded them to.

        Job lived before Exodus and he was tested by God on account of Satan. 3 of his friend came to comfort him in his distress and one of them was an Indian/Elamite named Bildad and his relative. I am quoting here what God said to Job.

        Job 38 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:

        2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
        with words without knowledge?
        3 Brace yourself like a man;
        I will question you,
        and you shall answer me.

        4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
        Tell me, if you understand.
        5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
        Who stretched a measuring line across it?
        6 On what were its footings set,
        or who laid its cornerstone—
        7 while the morning stars sang together
        and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

        8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
        when it burst forth from the womb,
        9 when I made the clouds its garment
        and wrapped it in thick darkness,
        10 when I fixed limits for it
        and set its doors and bars in place,
        11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
        here is where your proud waves halt’?

        12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
        or shown the dawn its place,
        13 that it might take the earth by the edges
        and shake the wicked out of it?
        14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
        its features stand out like those of a garment.
        15 The wicked are denied their light,
        and their upraised arm is broken.

        16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
        or walked in the recesses of the deep?
        17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
        Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
        18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
        Tell me, if you know all this.

        19 “What is the way to the abode of light?
        And where does darkness reside?
        20 Can you take them to their places?
        Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
        21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
        You have lived so many years!

        22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
        or seen the storehouses of the hail,
        23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
        for days of war and battle?
        24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
        or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
        25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
        and a path for the thunderstorm,
        26 to water a land where no one lives,
        an uninhabited desert,
        27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
        and make it sprout with grass?
        28 Does the rain have a father?
        Who fathers the drops of dew?
        29 From whose womb comes the ice?
        Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
        30 when the waters become hard as stone,
        when the surface of the deep is frozen?

        31 “Can you bind the chains[b] of the Pleiades?
        Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
        32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons[c]
        or lead out the Bear[d] with its cubs?
        33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
        Can you set up God’s[e] dominion over the earth?

        34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds
        and cover yourself with a flood of water?
        35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
        Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
        36 Who gives the ibis wisdom[f]
        or gives the rooster understanding?[g]
        37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
        Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
        38 when the dust becomes hard
        and the clods of earth stick together?

        39 “Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
        and satisfy the hunger of the lions
        40 when they crouch in their dens
        or lie in wait in a thicket?
        41 Who provides food for the raven
        when its young cry out to God
        and wander about for lack of food?

        Job 39 “Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
        Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?
        2 Do you count the months till they bear?
        Do you know the time they give birth?
        3 They crouch down and bring forth their young;
        their labor pains are ended.
        4 Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds;
        they leave and do not return.

        5 “Who let the wild donkey go free?
        Who untied its ropes?
        6 I gave it the wasteland as its home,
        the salt flats as its habitat.
        7 It laughs at the commotion in the town;
        it does not hear a driver’s shout.
        8 It ranges the hills for its pasture
        and searches for any green thing.

        9 “Will the wild ox consent to serve you?
        Will it stay by your manger at night?
        10 Can you hold it to the furrow with a harness?
        Will it till the valleys behind you?
        11 Will you rely on it for its great strength?
        Will you leave your heavy work to it?
        12 Can you trust it to haul in your grain
        and bring it to your threshing floor?

        13 “The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,
        though they cannot compare
        with the wings and feathers of the stork.
        14 She lays her eggs on the ground
        and lets them warm in the sand,
        15 unmindful that a foot may crush them,
        that some wild animal may trample them.
        16 She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;
        she cares not that her labor was in vain,
        17 for God did not endow her with wisdom
        or give her a share of good sense.
        18 Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,
        she laughs at horse and rider.

        19 “Do you give the horse its strength
        or clothe its neck with a flowing mane?
        20 Do you make it leap like a locust,
        striking terror with its proud snorting?
        21 It paws fiercely, rejoicing in its strength,
        and charges into the fray.
        22 It laughs at fear, afraid of nothing;
        it does not shy away from the sword.
        23 The quiver rattles against its side,
        along with the flashing spear and lance.
        24 In frenzied excitement it eats up the ground;
        it cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.
        25 At the blast of the trumpet it snorts, ‘Aha!’
        It catches the scent of battle from afar,
        the shout of commanders and the battle cry.

        26 “Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom
        and spread its wings toward the south?
        27 Does the eagle soar at your command
        and build its nest on high?
        28 It dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
        a rocky crag is its stronghold.
        29 From there it looks for food;
        its eyes detect it from afar.
        30 Its young ones feast on blood,
        and where the slain are, there it is.”

        Job 40 The Lord said to Job:

        2 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
        Let him who accuses God answer him!”

        3 Then Job answered the Lord:

        4 “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
        I put my hand over my mouth.
        5 I spoke once, but I have no answer—
        twice, but I will say no more.”

        6 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm:

        7 “Brace yourself like a man;
        I will question you,
        and you shall answer me.

        8 “Would you discredit my justice?
        Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
        9 Do you have an arm like God’s,
        and can your voice thunder like his?
        10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
        and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
        11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
        look at all who are proud and bring them low,
        12 look at all who are proud and humble them,
        crush the wicked where they stand.
        13 Bury them all in the dust together;
        shroud their faces in the grave.
        14 Then I myself will admit to you
        that your own right hand can save you.

        15 “Look at Behemoth,
        which I made along with you
        and which feeds on grass like an ox.
        16 What strength it has in its loins,
        what power in the muscles of its belly!
        17 Its tail sways like a cedar;
        the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.
        18 Its bones are tubes of bronze,
        its limbs like rods of iron.
        19 It ranks first among the works of God,
        yet its Maker can approach it with his sword.
        20 The hills bring it their produce,
        and all the wild animals play nearby.
        21 Under the lotus plants it lies,
        hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
        22 The lotuses conceal it in their shadow;
        the poplars by the stream surround it.
        23 A raging river does not alarm it;
        it is secure, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth.
        24 Can anyone capture it by the eyes,
        or trap it and pierce its nose?

        Job 41 [a]“Can you pull in Leviathan with a fishhook
        or tie down its tongue with a rope?
        2 Can you put a cord through its nose
        or pierce its jaw with a hook?
        3 Will it keep begging you for mercy?
        Will it speak to you with gentle words?
        4 Will it make an agreement with you
        for you to take it as your slave for life?
        5 Can you make a pet of it like a bird
        or put it on a leash for the young women in your house?
        6 Will traders barter for it?
        Will they divide it up among the merchants?
        7 Can you fill its hide with harpoons
        or its head with fishing spears?
        8 If you lay a hand on it,
        you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
        9 Any hope of subduing it is false;
        the mere sight of it is overpowering.
        10 No one is fierce enough to rouse it.
        Who then is able to stand against me?
        11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
        Everything under heaven belongs to me.

        12 “I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs,
        its strength and its graceful form.
        13 Who can strip off its outer coat?
        Who can penetrate its double coat of armor[b]?
        14 Who dares open the doors of its mouth,
        ringed about with fearsome teeth?
        15 Its back has[c] rows of shields
        tightly sealed together;
        16 each is so close to the next
        that no air can pass between.
        17 They are joined fast to one another;
        they cling together and cannot be parted.
        18 Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
        its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
        19 Flames stream from its mouth;
        sparks of fire shoot out.
        20 Smoke pours from its nostrils
        as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
        21 Its breath sets coals ablaze,
        and flames dart from its mouth.
        22 Strength resides in its neck;
        dismay goes before it.
        23 The folds of its flesh are tightly joined;
        they are firm and immovable.
        24 Its chest is hard as rock,
        hard as a lower millstone.
        25 When it rises up, the mighty are terrified;
        they retreat before its thrashing.
        26 The sword that reaches it has no effect,
        nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
        27 Iron it treats like straw
        and bronze like rotten wood.
        28 Arrows do not make it flee;
        slingstones are like chaff to it.
        29 A club seems to it but a piece of straw;
        it laughs at the rattling of the lance.
        30 Its undersides are jagged potsherds,
        leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
        31 It makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
        and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
        32 It leaves a glistening wake behind it;
        one would think the deep had white hair.
        33 Nothing on earth is its equal—
        a creature without fear.
        34 It looks down on all that are haughty;
        it is king over all that are proud.”

      • Ancient Middle Eastern Jews had no science to explain the world so they had their image of God be the explanation for it. Behemoth and Leviathan – mythological figures.

      • The most important thing is the techniques. That should be main big point of a faith. Instead these crazy jesus fanatics put history first and historical events first. Only subverted people believe in such non-sense. And take Buddha for example. Although there are some Buddhists that worship buddha, Buddha actually told his followers to not worship him. People asked if he was God or a prophet. And he said no to both. He said I am just a man who was awakened, Buddha. And he also said there were many Buddhas before me and many will come after me. Anyone can accomplish what I have done. You just need to use the Techniques I show you. And he teaches his students the different techniques like vipassana meditation. The point is a true teacher will help you experience what he or she experienced. Only a fake will say worship me or follow me or say I am the last one, no one can do what i have done. Total nonsense. There will always be people who can connect with God. And anyone who said otherwise is full of S**T. Time to stop the utter subversion. Time to learn the techniques to connect with God. Time to become adults. GOD IS BEYOND HISTORY AND REQUIRED HISTORICAL EVENTS. God is exists in all of us and we just need to reach into our inner-self and and seek God and we can be enlightened. People like Mac are the true subverter and in a way, he is the devil he speaks of.

      • You and Jay have a bad habit of bluntly defying the truth without any reasoning or stating any valid arguement or facts. It comes from the blindfaith. When you say Faith instead of Shraddha, let me tell you; the word Faith exclusively belong to Jesus Christ. Faith is the substance of our belief in the Word of God who is unseen. On the contrary, Shraddha is believing in what you see.

        Revelations: The One who rides the white horse, His Name is Faith(ful).

        God is beyond history, time and space. Did Jesus had a teacher or did he went to school? No. Then how come the teachers of the law, Rabbis call Jesus a Rabbi. At 10 years Jesus got lost and was found teaching to the teachers of law and Members of Sanhedrin, when He was found by His parents. He was telling them the exact numbers of stars God created.
        He is the physical Creator and you say His teachings are lies!!! Come on get a life here. Sermon on the mountain is the greatest teachings of morality ever uttered by a human being. Which of your gods performed miracles? Or walked on water like Jesus, healed the sick, cast out demons, commanded the waves of the storm to calm down or brought the dead to life with a command or forgiven sins of mankind. The sin was committed in flesh, so also it was paid in full in flesh. The sins committed in spirit world are unforgivable because they know God. The Word became flesh and lived amongst us for a while: it is written.

        John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

        This is the reason God calls Abraham His friend. Because God tested Abraham with his only son Isaac’s sacrifice. Isaac was born when Abraham was 99 years old.

        It is God who is good and God is love.

        John 14:1 If you love Me, you will obey what I command.

        John 14:21 “Whoever has My commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves Me. He who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I too will love him and show Myself to him.”

        If you are looking for freedom from sin as the scriptures say that the impulse of sin is in our flesh.

        John 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

        John 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

        Romans 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

        You are trying to find God and get enlightened. I am going to tell you how it is in the spirit world in heavens. God sits above the upper waters in unapproachable lights (distance) from us. He has established a whole system of governance, a hierchy in the spirit world.

        Pslam 82:1 God presides in the great assembly; He gives judgment among the “gods”:

        There are 24 Elders, 12 on both sides of the Throne of the Most High. Jesus Christ, Son of God sits on the right hand of the God as a Mediator of mankind. In the second row Seraphims sit and the third row Cherubims sit. Both are 6 winged angels, Cherubs are angels of fire. These are all gods created by God Almighty. And here below is the heirchy of angels, the spiritual beings.

        Seraphim
        These are the highest order or choir of angels. They are the angels who are attendants or guardians before God’s throne. They praise God, calling, “Holy Holy Holy is the Lord of Hosts”. the only Bible reference is Isaiah 6:1-7. One of them touched Isaiah’s lips with a live coal from the altar, cleansing him from sin. Seraphim have six wings, two cover their faces, two cover their feet, and two are for flying.

        Cherubim
        Cherubim rank after the seraphim and are the second highest in the nine hierarchies or choirs of angels. The Old Testament does not reveal any evidence that the Jews considered them as intercessors or helpers of God. They were closely linked in God’s glory. They are manlike in appearance and double-winged and were guardians of God’s glory. They symbolized then, God’s power and mobility. In the New Testament, they are alluded to as celestial attendants in the Apocalypse (Rv 4-6). Catholic tradition describes them as angels who have an intimate knowledge of God and continually praise Him. Satan is also a Cherubim, who rebelled.

        Thrones
        Thrones are the Angels of pure Humility, Peace and Submisssion. They reside in the area of the cosmos where material form begins to take shape. The lower Choir of Angels need the Thrones to access God.

        Dominions
        Dominions are Angels of Leadership. They regulate the duties of the angels, making known the commands of God.

        Virtues
        Virtues are known as the Spirits of Motion and control the elements. They are sometimes referred to as “the shining ones.” They govern all nature. They have control over seasons, stars, moon; even the sun is subject to their command. They are also in charge of miracles and provide courage, grace, and valor.

        Powers
        Powers are Warrior Angels against evil defending the cosmos and humans. They are known as potentates. They fight against evil spirits who attempt to wreak chaos through human beings. The chief is said to be either Samael or Camael, both angels of darkness.

        Archangels
        Archangels are generally taken to mean “chief or leading angel” ( Jude 9; 1 Thes 4:16), they are the most frequently mentioned throughout the Bible. They may be of this or other hierarchies as Archangel Michael (Yeshua), who is a princely Seraph. The Archangels have a unique role as God’s messenger to the people at critical times in history and salvation (Tb 12:6, 15; Jn 5:4; Rv 12:7-9). The Eastern Rite and many others place him over all the angels, as Prince of the Seraphim. He is described as the “Chief of Princes” and as the leader of the forces of heaven in their triumph over Satan and his followers. The angel Gabriel first appeared in the Old Testament in the prophesies of Daniel, he announced the prophecy of 70 weeks (Dn 9:21-27). He appeared to Zechariah to announce the birth of St. John the Baptist (Lk 1:11). It was also Gabriel which proclaimed the Annunciation of Mary to be the mother of our Lord and Saviour. (Lk 1:26) The angel Raphael first appeared in the book of Tobit (Tobias)Tb 3:25, 5:5-28, 6-12). He announces “I am the Angel Raphael, one of the seven who stand before the throne of God.”

        Principalities
        In the New Testament Principalities refers to one type of spiritual (metaphysical) being which are now quite hostile to God and human beings. (Rom 8:38; 1 Cor 15:24; Eph 1:21; 3:10; 6:12; Col 1:16; 2:10, 15) Along with the principalities are the powers (Rom 8:38; 1 Cor 15:24; Eph 1:21; 1 Pt 3:22; 2 Thes 1:7); and cosmological powers (1 Cor 15:24; Eph 1:21; 3:10; Col 2:15);Dominions (Eph 1:21; Col 1:16) and thrones (Col1:16). The clarity of the New Testament witness helps see that these beings were created through Christ and for Him (Col 1:16). Given their hostility to God and humans due to sin, Christ’s ultimate rule over them (ibid) expresses the reign of the Lord over all in the cosmos. This is the Lordship of Christ, which reveals God’s tremendous salvation in conquering sin and death at the cross, and now takes place in the Church. (Eph 3:10)

        Angels
        These angels are closest to the material world and human begins. They deliver the prayers to God and God’s answers and other messages to humans. Angels have the capacity to access any and all other Angels at any time. They are the most caring and socius to assist those who ask for help.

        Do Not worship angels. They are ministering spirits. Worship God who sits in the Most High.

      • Let us see, what is the truth? On this blog, I will prove you that you are a child of Satan, the Father of LIES.

        Considering that the Jewish people constitute a mere one half of one percent of the world’s population, Jewish contribution to religion, science, literature, music, medicine, finance, philosophy, entertainment etc., is staggering.

        In the field of medicine alone, Jewish contributions are staggering and continue to be so. It was a Jew who created the first polio vaccine, who discovered insulin, who discovered that aspirin dealt with pain, who discovered chloral hydrate for convulsions, who discovered streptomycin, who discovered the origin and spread of infectious diseases, who invented the test for diagnosis of syphilis, who identified the first cancer virus, who discovered the cure for pellagra and added to the knowledge about yellow fever, typhoid, typhus, measles, diphtheria and influenza. Today, Israel, a nation only sixty years old, has emerged at the forefront of stem-cell research, which will, in the near future, give humanity unprecedented medical treatment for degenerative diseases.

        There is a passage in the Talmud that says: “We find in the case of Cain, who killed his brother, that it is written: The bloods of thy brother cry unto me: not the blood of thy brother, but the bloods of thy brother is said, that is, his blood and the blood of his potential descendants.” (Sanhedrin 37a, 37-38.)

        Jewish Contributions to Society

        Albert Einstein Physicist
        Jonas Salk Created first Polio Vaccine.
        Albert Sabin Developed the oral vaccine for Polio.
        Galileo Discovered the speed of light
        Selman Waksman Discovered Streptomycin. Coined the word ‘antibiotic’.
        Gabriel Lipmann Discovered color photography.
        Baruch Blumberg Discovered origin and spread of infectious diseases.
        G. Edelman Discovered chemical structure of antibodies.
        Briton Epstein Identified first cancer virus.
        Maria Meyer Structure of atomic nuclei.
        Julius Mayer Discovered law of thermodynamics.
        Sigmund Freud Father of Psychotherapy.
        Christopher Columbus (Marano) Discovered the Americas.
        Benjamin Disraeli Prime Minister of Great Britain 1804-1881
        Isaac Singer Invented the sewing machine.
        Levi Strauss Largest manufacturer of Denim Jeans.
        Joseph Pulitzer Established ‘Pulitzer Prize’ for achievements in journalism, literature, music & art.

        At least 185 Jews and people of half- or three-quarters-Jewish ancestry have been awarded the Nobel Prize,1 accounting for 22% of all individual recipients worldwide between 1901 and 2011, and constituting 36% of all US recipients2 during the same period.3 In the research fields of Chemistry, Economics, Physics, and Physiology/Medicine, the corresponding world and US percentages are 27% and 39%, respectively. Among women laureates in the four research fields, the Jewish percentages (world and US) are 38% and 50%, respectively. Of organizations awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, 25% were founded principally by Jews or by people of half-Jewish descent. (Jews currently make up approximately 0.2% of the world’s population and 2% of the US population.)
        Chemistry (32 prize winners, 20% of world total, 29% of US total)
        Economics (28 prize winners, 41% of world total, 53% of US total)
        Literature (13 prize winners, 12% of world total, 27% of US total)
        Peace (9 prize winners, 9% of world total, 10% of US total)4
        Physics (49 prize winners, 26% of world total, 37% of US total)
        Physiology or Medicine (54 prize winners, 27% of world total, 40% of US total)
        See also data on “other Nobels”:
        Jewish Recipients of the Kyoto Prize (24% of recipients)
        Jewish Recipients of the Wolf Foundation Prize (33% of recipients)
        Jewish Recipients of the US National Medal of Science (38% of recipients)

        Listed below are recipients of the Nobel Prize in chemistry who were, or are, Jewish (or of half-Jewish descent, as noted). The percentages given above are those corresponding to only those names that appear explicitly on the list below.
        Adolph von Baeyer #,1 (1905)
        Henri Moissan #,2 (1906)
        Otto Wallach # (1910)
        Richard Willstätter # (1915)
        Fritz Haber # (1918)
        George de Hevesy # (1943)
        Melvin Calvin # (1961)
        Max Perutz # (1962)
        Christian Anfinsen 3 (1972)
        William Stein # (1972)
        Ilya Prigogine 4 (1977)
        Herbert Brown # (1979)
        Paul Berg # (1980)
        Walter Gilbert # (1980)
        Roald Hoffmann # (1981)
        Sir Aaron Klug # (1982)
        Herbert Hauptman 5 (1985)
        Jerome Karle 6 (1985)
        John Polanyi 7 (1986)
        Sidney Altman # (1989)
        Rudolph Marcus # (1992)
        George Olah 8 (1994)
        Sir Harold Kroto 9 (1996)
        Walter Kohn 10 (1998)
        Alan Heeger 11 (2000)
        Aaron Ciechanover 12 (2004)
        Avram Hershko 13 (2004)
        Irwin Rose 14 (2004)
        Roger Kornberg 15 (2006)
        Martin Chalfie 16 (2008)
        Ada Yonath 17 (2009)
        Dan Shechtman 18 (2011)

        Listed below are recipients of the Nobel Prize in physiology or medicine who were, or are, Jewish (or of half- or three-quarters-Jewish descent, as noted). The percentages given above are those corresponding to the names that appear explicitly on the list below.
        Paul Ehrlich # (1908)
        Elie Metchnikoff #,1 (1908)
        Robert Bárány # (1914)
        Otto Meyerhof # (1922)
        Karl Landsteiner # (1930)
        Otto Warburg #,2 (1931)
        Otto Loewi # (1936)
        Joseph Erlanger # (1944)
        Sir Ernst Chain # (1945)
        Hermann Muller #,3 (1946)
        Gerty Cori 4 (1947)
        Tadeus Reichstein # (1950)
        Selman Waksman # (1952)
        Sir Hans Krebs # (1953)
        Fritz Lipmann # (1953)
        Joshua Lederberg # (1958)
        Arthur Kornberg # (1959)
        Konrad Bloch # (1964)
        Francois Jacob # (1965)
        André Lwoff # (1965)
        George Wald # (1967)
        Marshall Nirenberg # (1968)
        Salvador Luria # (1969)
        Julius Axelrod # (1970)
        Sir Bernard Katz # (1970)
        Gerald Edelman # (1972)
        David Baltimore # (1975)
        Howard Temin # (1975)
        Baruch Blumberg # (1976)
        Andrew Schally 5 (1977)
        Rosalyn Yalow # (1977)
        Daniel Nathans # (1978)
        Baruj Benacerraf # (1980)
        Sir John Vane 6 (1982)
        César Milstein # (1984)
        Michael Brown # (1985)
        Joseph Goldstein # (1985)
        Stanley Cohen # (1986)
        Rita Levi-Montalcini # (1986)
        Gertrude Elion # (1988)
        Harold Varmus # (1989)
        Edmond Fischer 7 (1992)
        Alfred Gilman 8 (1994)
        Martin Rodbell 9 (1994)
        Stanley Prusiner 10 (1997)
        Robert Furchgott 11 (1998)
        Paul Greengard 12 (2000)
        Eric Kandel 13 (2000)
        Sydney Brenner 14 (2002)
        H. Robert Horvitz 15 (2002)
        Richard Axel 16 (2004)
        Andrew Z. Fire 17 (2006)
        Bruce Beutler 18 (2011)
        Ralph Steinman 19 (2011)

        Listed below are recipients of the Nobel Prize in physics who were, or are, Jewish (or of half- or three-quarters-Jewish descent, as noted). The percentages given above are those corresponding to only those names that appear explicitly on the list below.
        Albert Michelson #,1 (1907)
        Gabriel Lippmann # (1908)
        Albert Einstein # (1921)
        Niels Bohr #,2 (1922)
        James Franck # (1925)
        Otto Stern # (1943)
        Isidor Rabi # (1944)
        Wolfgang Pauli 3 (1945)
        Felix Bloch # (1952)
        Max Born # (1954)
        Igor Tamm #,4 (1958)
        Ilya Frank 4 (1958)
        Emilio Segrè # (1959)
        Donald Glaser # (1960)
        Robert Hofstadter # (1961)
        Lev Landau # (1962)
        Eugene Wigner 5 (1963)
        Richard Feynman # (1965)
        Julian Schwinger # (1965)
        Hans Bethe #,6 (1967)
        Murray Gell-Mann # (1969)
        Dennis Gabor # (1971)
        Leon Cooper 7 (1972)
        Brian Josephson # (1973)
        Ben Mottelson # (1975)
        Burton Richter # (1976)
        Arno Penzias # (1978)
        Sheldon Glashow # (1979)
        Steven Weinberg # (1979)
        Arthur Schawlow 8 (1981)
        K. Alexander Müller 9 (1987)
        Leon Lederman # (1988)
        Melvin Schwartz # (1988)
        Jack Steinberger # (1988)
        Jerome Friedman # (1990)
        Georges Charpak #,10 (1992)
        Martin Perl #,11 (1995)
        Frederick Reines #,12 (1995)
        David Lee 13 (1996)
        Douglas Osheroff 14 (1996)
        Claude Cohen-Tannoudji 15 (1997)
        Zhores Alferov 16 (2000)
        Vitaly Ginzburg 17 (2003)
        Alexei Abrikosov 18 (2003)
        David Gross 19 (2004)
        H. David Politzer 19 (2004)
        Roy Glauber 20 (2005)
        Saul Perlmutter 21 (2011)
        Adam Riess 22 (2011)

        Listed below are recipients of the Nobel Prize in literature who were, or are, Jewish (or of half-Jewish descent, as noted).
        Paul von Heyse #,1 (1910)
        Henri Bergson # (1927)
        Boris Pasternak # (1958)
        Shmuel Agnon # (1966)
        Nelly Sachs # (1966)
        Saul Bellow # (1976)
        Isaac Bashevis Singer # (1978)
        Elias Canetti # (1981)
        Joseph Brodsky # (1987)
        Nadine Gordimer # (1991)
        Imre Kertész 2 (2002)
        Elfriede Jelinek 3 (2004)
        Harold Pinter 4 (2005)

        Listed below are recipients of the Nobel Prize in economics who were, or are, Jewish (or of half- or three-quarters-Jewish descent, as noted). The percentages given above are those corresponding to only those names that appear explicitly on the list below.
        Paul Samuelson # (1970)
        Simon Kuznets # (1971)
        Kenneth Arrow # (1972)
        Wassily Leontief 1 (1973)
        Leonid Kantorovich # (1975)
        Milton Friedman # (1976)
        Herbert Simon #,2 (1978)
        Lawrence Klein # (1980)
        Franco Modigliani # (1985)
        Robert Solow # (1987)
        Harry Markowitz # (1990)
        Merton Miller 3 (1990)
        Gary Becker # (1992)
        Robert Fogel 4 (1993)
        John Harsanyi 5 (1994)
        Reinhard Selten 6 (1994)
        Robert Merton 7 (1997)
        Myron Scholes 8 (1997)
        George Akerlof 9 (2001)
        Joseph Stiglitz 10 (2001)
        Daniel Kahneman 11 (2002)
        Robert Aumann 12 (2005)
        Leonid (Leo) Hurwicz 13 (2007)
        Eric Maskin 14 (2007)
        Roger Myerson 15 (2007)
        Paul Krugman 16 (2008)
        Elinor Ostrom 17 (2009)
        Peter Diamond 18 (2010)

        Listed immediately below are recipients of the Nobel Peace Prize who were, or are, Jewish. The percentages given above are based on awards made to individuals only, i.e., the statistical calculation excludes awards to organizations. Of the organizations that have received Nobel Peace Prizes, 25% were founded or co-founded principally by Jews or individuals of half-Jewish background. Further discussion of this can be found in footnote [1] below.
        Tobias Asser # (1911)
        Alfred Fried # (1911)
        René Cassin # (1968)
        Henry Kissinger # (1973)
        Menachem Begin # (1978)
        Elie Wiesel # (1986)
        Shimon Peres # (1994)
        Yitzhak Rabin # (1994)
        Sir Joseph Rotblat # (1995)

      • I don’t think Mr. Spanky, aka mac, will ever get it. He just cuts and pastes these ridiculously long emails that no one reads. He is an idol worshiping moron and found a way to justify his jesus idol worshiping dog shit religion. He need a life. I never seen someone who is so stupid and closed minded. Its so pathetic he wants to be constantine the murderer. I can see he would love to go on a killing spree if he had his crazy way.

  89. @ mac, ohhhh…??? Ab-ram was a ram and sara was sita. Hee-ram was cousin of ab-ram.and parsu-ram was teacher of ab-ram. And Bal-ram was the brother of jejus khrist (krishna) follower of ab-ram. Bible was the story of rama’s.ram-sin,tussarat mention of jewish history it is prove that,ram searches sita she kidnaped ravanna?? Ahi ravanna and mahi ravanna the clone of ravanna.hanuman was the himan,herculous of greek version.i am right?? Laxmanna where mention of jewish ,so help me.

    • You cant mix up Abraham and Jesus with Elam’s bloodline. They were descendents of Arphaxsad, Elam’s brother. King Kedarlaomer who defeated Kings of Soddom and Gammorah was an Elamite king. Now, Kudur Laghumal or Kedarlaomer is an Elamite and Ram-anna and Warad-sin (Bharat) and their father Tussarat (Dasratha) were Elamites. They should be the descendents of King Kedarlaomer who was defeated by Abraham. Because Darius I the great mentions Ram-anna and Warad-sin; and Tussarat as his ancestors and Darius I lived in 6th century BC, so there is a gap of over 50 generations as Abraham is the 20th generation from Adam and Jesus is 77th generation from Adam. One thing is for sure that Ram-anna ruled for 60 years and your scriptures says that Ram ruled for 60 years. Ram-anna ruled the longest in the Elamite history. However, history do not mention much about him except there are few relics found in Ur, Iraq.

      The writers of vedas have screwed up the truth and history. Otherwise, the Summerian and Elamite literature and history are ancient and well known. But veda writers have cut of the whole historical culture from the rest of the world and redefined it as a fake history. They have not even recorded the recent Elamite history, nothing about King Darius the Great, or King Ahusaures the great. They ruled from Greece down to old India (Mesopotamia/Persia) and from Ethiopia to NW India. Indian history starts from Chandragupta I and it is sad that they cut off the truth and history from the rest of the world.

      • There Christian nutter Mac goes again. Mixing Jewish mythology into History and falsely viewing the entire world through those Jewish mythology tinted glasses. There is zero science backing Mac’s weird notion of where people descended from. Even in the Jewish and Christian mythology none of it goes into the details Mac retroactively gives to modern peoples. Read actual science from real scienctists not Mac, read actual History not Mac’s trying to fit Jewish mythology into history. He is falsely passing on his dogmatic view of the world as history that is not taught in credible mainstream schools.

      • How is main stream faith judaism and christianity a myth? 66 books of bible are well researched, proved and then authenticated with internal evidence, external evidence, archeological proof and world history. Today, it is further confirmed by DNA science exactly as it is written in the Bible. Check on the mtDNA hiplogroup tree of mankind of today and compare the Genesis 10 Table of Nations, I have elaborated above.

        What you are doing is called mudslinging old vedic traits.

        Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

      • Regarding the mtDNA haplogroup tree of mankind, please refer to this link for more:

        http://centreright.in/2009/09/re-evaluating-the-saraswati-sindhu-civilisation/#.UEgA1qD0TDc genetic

        Producing an excerpt from a link that I had provided earlier to bust the myth of the Table of Nations. “The tribes, or ethnic groups, appearing on the table are confined to a small area on the world map: largely the middle-east, but also segments of North Africa, Asia Minor and Europe. Some Christian literalists, however wrongly interpret the table, to infer it describes everyone on Earth today as having descended from Noah’s three sons. In reality, the limited ethnography of the table only covers the habitation of one race, Caucasoids. There are no Negroids or Mongoloids, on the table, since the authors had no knowledge of the eastern parts of Asia, or Sub-Sahara Africa when it was written have earlier provided a link to expose the poor and shoddy attempt to pass of the Table of Nations as an authentic source of information. It is commonly claimed by Christian literalists that Ham can be equated to the Negroid race. However the Hamite tribes or ethnic peoples listed in Genesis 10 are in fact Caucasoids.

      • GENESIS 10 (Table of Nations)
        History of Mankind

        The history of the races of mankind is a fascinating subject. Biologically, a race is generally thought of as a variety, or subspecies, within a given species. All the races are a part of the human race. We have made the term race to apply to skin color, but the dictionary defines race as “a class or kind of individuals with common characteristics, interests, appearances, or habits as if derived from a common ancestor.”

        Where did we come from? The answers have always been with us, as presented in the original Table of Nations. What you are about to read can best be described as an Exegesis (from the Greek exégesis, verb: exégetikos, meaning interpretation, guide, translation or critical exposition). Once you have read what is presented here, you may not view any race of people the same way again. Note that there is nothing like the Table of Nations (as presented here) in any other national tradition. Here we are given the origin of nations.

        We can also factually claim that wherever its statements can be sufficiently tested, Genesis 10 of the Bible has been found completely accurate; resulting partly from linguistic studies, partly from archaeology, and, more recently still, from the findings of physical anthropologists, who are, to this day, recovering important clues to lines of migration in ancient historic times. As implied in verse 32 of Genesis 10, this Table includes everybody; meaning that so-called fossil man, primitive peoples (ancient and modern) and modern man are all derived from Noah’s three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Acts 17:26 states, “From one man (or one blood) He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live,” a corroboration of Genesis 10. In light of this, findings from anthropology, archaeology, ethnography, ethnohistory, genetics, geology, and sociology substantiate an alternate interpretation of the history of humanity. As one archaeologist, William Albright, noted “it [the Bible] remains an astonishingly accurate document…and shows such remarkably ‘modern’ understanding of the ethnic and linguistic situation in the modern world, in spite of all its complexity, that scholars never fail to be impressed with it’s knowledge of the subject.” We can further infer from political histories—kingdoms, empires, and their rulers; also from artists, poets, philosophers, architects and mathematicians who enriched their individual cultures. Additionally, references from historical records, ancient literature, mythology, burial customs and other sources all provide strong evidences.

        This may seem a gross over-simplification, and even appear to oppose well-established secular scientific opinion; however, science has proven itself over and over to be a double-edged sword. For example, it is often found that what is obviously true, is actually false. The obvious idea that the sun moved around the earth was erroneous, but until that view was corrected, little progress was made in the science of astronomy. On the other hand, on occasion, what is obviously false turns out to be actually true, as in the scientific belief that dinosaurs and humans never coexisted. That changed when fossilized footprints of dinosaurs and humans were found together, with the most recent fossil discovery showing a human footprint slightly overlapped by a dinosaur footprint. Newly discovered artwork and various ancient artifacts depicting live dinosaurs by themselves, or interacting with humans, gave further proof. These include burial stones, burial cloths, clay figurines and cave drawings. While scientific knowledge is characterized by a progressive approach to reality, it has often proved detrimental to the progress of understanding in the things which it has denied. Such is the case here. So before you begin to judge, please continue reading.

        As stated earlier, race does not apply to skin color alone. Skin color is essentially the only biological difference in race, and science has been unable to determine what causes skin pigmentation. They have not been able to define the difference in cell pigment or structure. This superficial distinction is the basis for the division of mankind, but the fact is, we are all the same color, and some people have a little more “color” than others. Skin shade is due to the amount of a substance called melanin in the skin; the more melanin, the darker the skin. We are not born with a genetically fixed amount of melanin, but rather with a genetically fixed potential to produce a certain amount, increasing in response to sunlight (why Caucasians “tan” when exposed to the sun for long periods). Racially mixed individuals can have children with skin color that is very dark, very light, or anywhere in between. The predominant shade for freely interbreeding individuals would be brown.

        Modern genetics shows that when a large, freely interbreeding group is suddenly broken into many smaller groups which from then on breed only among themselves (as the Biblical description of the language dispersion at Babel would imply), different racial characteristics will arise very rapidly. It can be shown that one pair of middle-brown parents could produce all known shades of color, from very white to very black, in one generation. The racial characteristics which exist today have not evolved, and generally speaking, are simply different combinations of pre-existing (created) genetic (hereditary) information. Remee and Kian Hodgson born April 2005, and Layton and Kaydon Richardson born July 2006 are fraternal “black and white” twins. More incredible was the birth of two sets of mixed-race twins by Alison and Dean Durrant. Their first twins were born in 2001, and their second twins arrived November 2008. Other fraternal twin births include Alicia and Jasmin Singerl born May 2006, and Ryan and Leo Gerth born July 2008 (not pictured), all providing proof of such genetic detail. The environment plays a secondary role in favoring certain combinations over others

        The Biblical viewpoint is that there is not a black race, white race, yellow race, etc. Instead, there are three distinct families or characteristics of man that make up the oldest Table of Nations in existence, which is a completely authentic statement of how the present world population originated and spread after the flood, as recorded in Genesis 10 of the Bible (a historical document itself). Here we learn the true divisions of mankind, indicating how the present population of the world came to be. The listing of Noah’s descendants is more theological than hereditary, so we must understand that Noah’s descendants existed because of his righteousness.
        Genesis chapter 10 describes how the present world population was derived from Noah’s three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth, and their wives (three family groups). Verse 32 states, “From these the nations spread out over the earth after the flood.” Additional references are given in 1 Chronicles chapter 1. Genesis 10 exactly names 16 grandsons of Noah, and then we are provided further details of the Babel dispersion (Genesis 11) where their descendants fanned out over the earth and established the various nations of the ancient world. The number of descendants of Noah (grandsons, great-grandsons, etc.) mentioned are 26 from Shem, 30 from Ham, and 14 from Japheth, totaling 70 “sons” or “nations.” These 70 nations are the descendants (generations, genealogies or family histories) of the sons of Noah, known from Hebrew antiquity (Talmudic tradition of seventy nations in the world), and other ancient sources. Most, if not all, tribes and nations can be traced to these men through their descendants. Chapter 10 describes the differentiation of nations, and asserts that we were all descended from Noah. It is important to understand that people and nations are referred to in a genealogical form (common in Hebrew and other Semitic languages). We find genealogical references in Genesis 10 are firstly to persons or families (ethnological), and secondly to nations or tribes (ethnographical); thus, the chapter ends with an emphasis on nations or tribes, which helps us understand in following chapters where they settled or “spread out over the earth” (geographical). We must acknowledge the early reality of inter-family marrying as individual family groups were established. This would later define skin color and other unique features within various subgroups and their subsequent populations. They began as hunter-gatherers and/or pastoral nomads (living off the land as they migrated).

        Evidence shows that Noah’s sons kept together at first, then broke up into small groups and eventually arrived from the east in the southern Mesopotamian Plain (Gen. 11:2). The descendants of Elam, the first born son of Shem, were the first people to enter Mesopotamia. Susa, the capital city of the Elamites (Shemitic Elamites), gave rise to other early cities, such as Al-Ubaid (which later gave rise to Hamitic settlements—including the Sumerian civilization) and Jemdet Nasr. Recent excavations have provided very strong evidence of direct cultural links between some of the earliest cities in Babylonia and the lowest layers uncovered at Susa. These people established themselves first in the south and gradually spread toward the north, but without losing the cultural links. There are no known modern descendants of the Elamites. Other excavations have shown that one of the first Hamitic groups, the Sumerians, gave rise to considerable cultural advance and power in that region. Other people groups known very early included the Japhethites, noted especially for their fairness of skin, in the hill country east of the Tigris. Soon the great tower of Babel arose.

        Further evidence indicates that the rulers of the City of Babel attempted to avert dispersal of the people by proposing the building of a monument as a visible rallying point on the flat plain of Mesopotamia. Scripture and historical texts note that the tower of Babel, the building of which Nimrod (a Sumerian) supervised, was to have two great significances. The city of Babel would become the metropolis of the world and unite its inhabitants under the dictatorial rule of Nimrod. The tower was to be a monument to man to stand as a symbol of Babel. Given the present knowledge of Babel history, Genesis 11 has a solid historical foundation in early Mesopotamia. Nimrod hoped to prevent the people from scattering abroad into colonies as God intended, thus bringing upon themselves a judgment which led to confusion of the languages and rapid scattering throughout the earth. Babel means confusion. Urbanization, as attested by archaeological records, did not occur until after the dispersal of languages. The history of linguistic development and settlement patterns in Mesopotamia support this. There are dozens of unclassified and isolate languages throughout the world, such as Basque, Ainu and Ticuna, which testify to the widespread language distribution at Babel. The name Babel would be preserved as Babylon, a future world empire. We can safely conclude that all people in the world are descended from the inhabitants of Babel, the first civilization after Noah’s flood. From there the great empires of the past arose, including Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Greece, and all have strong historical links to the sons of Noah.

        We can find validation from research scientists who study human genetics. They claim that lineages derived from known people groups did in fact appear to have migrated from the “Near East”, “Middle East” or “Mesopotamia” (also called the “Cradle of Civilization” or the “Cradle of Mankind”) sometime during prehistory. This information is derived from DNA haplogroups. Haplogroups are used in DNA tests for markers that give a broad or regional picture; haplotypes are one person’s results on various DNA tests. Data comes from either Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) passed down from a father, or mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) passed down from a mother. Both can be used to define genetic populations from one generation to the next intact. Here we attest there was a first pair, Adam and Eve. Scientists have traced the mitochondrial DNA in all living humans back to a single female, and similarly, genetic markers in all males in the world today can be traced back to a single male. Y-chromosome Adam and mitochondrial Eve are connected to everyone now living by an unbroken father-to-son or mother-to-daughter line (including everyone else in their generations who’s ancestors are connected through one or more father-to-daughter or mother-to-son links). Haplogroup classifications are based on identification of genetic markers which a population of individuals share, passed down from an ancient but common ancestor. These genetic markers are evolving as new markers are found, sometimes resulting from occasional mutations to DNA.

        A majority of scholars and Bible historians agree that most of the descendants of Shem stayed in the Middle East, and Shem’s descendants are well documented. These include the Hebrews, Persians and Assyrians. Modern day Arabs and Jews trace their lineage to Shem. Many Arabic nomad tribes still claim they descended from Shem. The descendants of Shem (Shemites) are often called Semites, a term first used in the late 18th century for peoples listed in the Bible as descended from Shem. Today the term Semite refers to peoples who speak any of the Semitic languages, including the ancient peoples who inhabited Babylonia (Mesopotamia). Modern peoples speaking Semitic languages include the Arabs and Jews. Several centuries before the Christian Era, many ancient Semitic populations were migrating in large numbers from Arabia to Mesopotamia, the coasts of the Mediterranean Sea, and the Nile River delta. Jews and other Semites settled in villages in Judea (southern Palestine). Today, Semitic-speaking peoples are concentrated in the Middle East and northern Africa.

        The descendants of Ham include the Egyptians, Ethiopians, Canaanites, Phoenicians and Hittites. His descendants appear to be the first to fill the earth, as they were the early settlers of Africa, Asia, Australia, the South Pacific and the Americas. The descendants of Japheth migrated into Europe and parts of Central Asia. The Greeks, Romans, Spanish, Celts, Scythians and Medes were Japheth’s descendants. Some people groups merged to form one nation, as did the Persians (Shem) and the Medes (Japheth), which later became the Medo-Persian empire. We also find that many nations or peoples were named after an ancestor. Romans, and their capital city, were named after Romulus. Israelis and their country are named after their forefather, Israel. The observable fact of attaching the name of a leader to his people and his empire appears often in Ancient Near Eastern history. The Table of Nations in Genesis 10 illustrates this principle, whereby every land was named after its first successful settler: Canaanites were named after Ham’s son, Canaan, and so on.

        Note that the many names of family groups and nations listed here naturally follow well-established rules in the development of language, and the transfer of words between languages of a different family or nation. Letters may be transposed, endings added, prefixes taken away or added, but the basic root persists to help trace the spread of the peoples of the earth. For example, the ancient city of Unuk (in the Bible is the first city ever built, equated with Enoch), later appears as Uruk and Erech, then as Wark or Warka by the Sumerians, and finally appears in Greek as Purgos or Pergos. The conversion of “wark” into “purg-” shows the transfer of words between languages of a different family.

        Interestingly enough, purg- becomes burgh in modern Indo-European languages, which is the root of the English word, borough. Several examples of this are below, specifically in the lines of Japheth. The three sons of Noah and their descendants listed below are not in any particular order. From Babel the three families of man would populate the earth, and here we have the beginnings of all people groups through Shem, Ham and Japheth:

        Shem. Also Sem. Literal meanings are named or renown (father of the Semitic people groups – Shemites). The sons of Shem were:

        (1) Elam “eternity”(sons were Shushan, Machul and Harmon) – (Elamites, Indians, Persians);

        (2) Asshur “a step” or “strong” (sons were Mirus and Mokil) – (Assyrians/Northern Iraqis);

        (3) Arphaxad “I shall fail” (sons were Shelach, Anar and Ashcol) – (Chaldeans/Southern Iraqis, Hebrews/Israelites/Jews1, Arabians/Bedouins, Moabites/Jordanians/Palestinians, and related groups);

        (4) Lud “strife” (sons were Pethor and Bizayon) – (Ludim, Lubim, Ludians, Ludu, Lydians, Chubs, other related groups in Asia Minor and North Africa);

        (5) Aram “exalted” (sons were Uz, Chul, Gather and Mash) – (Aramaeans/Syrians, Lebanese, other related groups), and remnant groups throughout Asia, the Middle East, and North Africa.

        1Hebrews descended from Eber (Heber), a great-grandson of Shem. Six generations after Heber, Abram (Abraham) was born, so Abraham was both a Hebrew and a Semite, born of the line of Heber and Shem. Ishmael and Isaac were born of Abraham. However, Ishmael was born of an unlawful union between Abraham and his Egyptian maid Hagar (Genesis 16, Galatians 4), making Ishmael half Semitic and half Hamitic. Sunnite Arabs (specifically Arabian Muslims) consider themselves to be descendants of Ishmael, often calling themselves Ishmaelites, and thus are both Semitic Hebrews and Hamites. To this day the descendents of Ishmael (Arabs) and his half-brother brother Isaac (Israelites) have fought over which family group is Abraham’s true spiritual heir, specifically relating to ownership of land in the Middle East. Thus, there has been an unsolvable problem, and the nation of Israel is progressively being forced to give up land for peace.

        Isaac was born to Abraham and his lawful wife Sarah (Gen. 17, 18 & 21). Isaac had twin sons named Esau and Jacob. Esau was firstborn, and so had the right to inheritance (as was custom), but instead sold his birthright to Jacob during a time of hunger. Esau’s name was changed to Edom, and Jacob’s name was changed to Israel. The descendants of Esau (Edom) became known as Edomites, and the descendants of Jacob (Israel) became known as Israelites. Jacob fathered 12 sons which became the twelve tribes of Israel. Those who interchange the words “Jew” and Israelite, call Abraham a Jew, though Abraham was neither an Israelite or a Jew. The word “Jew” was not used in the Bible until nearly 1,000 years after Abraham. One of Jacob’s (Israel’s) children was Judah (Hebrew “Yehudah”). His descendants were called Yehudim (“Judahites”). In Greek the name is Ioudaioi (“Judeans”). Most all Bible translations use the word “Jew,” which is a modern, shortened form of the word “Judahite.” A “Jew” in the Old Testament would be a “Judahite;” and a “Jew” in the New Testament would be a “Judean.”

        A bitter rivalry between the descendants of Esau and Jacob continued throughout history, and as they lived in close proximity for hundreds of years, their hatred worsened. The Romans referred to the Edomites as Idumeans, separate from Israelites, when they lived in the region of Palestine together. The Romans later divided Palestine into districts, with Idumea (land of Edomites) being one of the districts. As the Roman Empire faded, Idumea was divided again into Northern Idumea, and the region fell to an Ishmaelite (Arabian) Muslim army led by Caliph Umar in 638 A.D. Historians suggest the remaining Edomites embraced Islam at that time and remained in the land, blending with the Arabs, and uniting against the Israelites.

        Jerusalem soon became a focal point for the Muslims (Moslems), being the third most holy city of Islam, after the cities of Mecca and Medina (though Jerusalem is never mentioned in the Koran, it is mentioned over 800 times in the Bible). By 691 A.D., the Mosque of Omar (also called the “Dome of the Rock”) was completed on the Temple Mount, where Muslims believe Mohammed ascended to heaven from. The Arabic term for the holy place is “al-Haram as-Sharif” meaning “The Noble Sanctuary.” To Israelites and Jews, Jerusalem was the city of the great prophets and the capital of the Kingdom of Israel and Judah under King David and his son King Solomon. The first and second temples were the center of worship until the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 A.D. Christians revere the city as the place where Jesus Christ taught in the temple, and was later crucified. Christians believe that Jesus will return to establish His Kingdom at the Temple Mount with Jerusalem as world capital.

        Still confused? Here’s a simple patriarchal chart, beginning with Noah, showing how these family groups came to be:

        Noah
        |
        Shem–>Eber–>Terah
        |
        ————–|—-
        | | |
        Abram Nahor Haran
        | |
        |———-| Lot
        Isaac Ishmael |——————-
        | | | |
        |——| |—>ArabsArabs<—————-
        |
        Israelites & Jews

        Ham. Also Cham or Kham. Literal meanings are passionate, hot, burnt or dark (father of the Australoid, Negroid and Mongoloid people groups – Hamites). He was the progenitor of:

        (1) Cush "black" (sons were Seba, Havilah, Sabta, Raama and Satecha) – also Chus, Kush, Kosh, Cushaean (Cushites, Nubians, Ethiopians, Ghanaians, Africans, Bushmen, Pygmies, Australian Aborignies, New Guineans, other related groups);

        (2) Mizraim "double straits" (sons were Lud, Anom, Pathros, Chasloth and Chaphtor) – also Masr, Misr, Misraim, Mitzraim, Mizraite, Mitsrayim (Egyptians1, Khemets, Copts, other related groups);

        (3) Phut "a bow" (sons were Gebul, Hadan, Benah and Adan) – also Punt, Puta, Put, Puni, Phoud, Pul, Fula, Putaya, Putiya, Libia, Libya (Libyans, Cyrenacians, Tunisians, Berbers, Somalians, Sudanese, North Africans, other related groups);

        (4) Canaan "down low" (sons were Zidon, Heth, Amori, Gergashi, Hivi, Arkee, Seni, Arodi, Zimodi and Chamothi) – also Canaanites, Cana, Chna, Chanani, Chanana, Canaana, Kana, Kenaanah, Kena'ani, Kena'an, Kn'nw, Kyn'nw, Kinnahu, Kinahhi, Kinahni, Kinahna, Kinahne (Mongols, Asians, Orientals, Chinese, Tibetans, Taiwanese, Thais, Vietnamese, Laotians, Cambodians, Japanese, Eskimos, American Indians3, Malayasians, Indonesians, Filipinos, Hawaiians, Maoris, Polynesians, Tahitians, Guamanians, Samoans, Fijians, Tongans, Tokelauans, Tuvaluans, Pacific Islanders4 and related groups).

        Tribes in other parts of Africa, Arabia and Asia, aboriginal groups in Australia, native Pacific Islanders, American Indians and Eskimos were birthed from descendants of Canaan, Cush, Mizraim and Phut.

        Looking at history, whichever region is considered, Africa, Europe, Australia, or America, the major migrations have always been from Asia. In every area of the world where Japhethites have subsequently settled, they have always been preceded by Hamites. This pattern applies in every continent. In early historic times the circumstance seems always to be true, the earliest fossil remains of man being Mongoloid or Negroid in character and in head shape, whereas those that came last belong to the family of Japheth (Caucasoid). When we study ancient history and technological achievements, which were in many ways the equal of, or superior of, much that we have today, we find Hamitic people showed an amazing adaptability to the world in which they founded, and carried to a high technological proficiency their societies. Their achievements were exploited by Japhetic and Semitic peoples, who became great scientific discoverers. The Hamitic migrations indicate they sought a way of life, not an understanding or a control of nature beyond what was immediately useful. A majority of Ham's descendants were not negroid. Genesis 10:15-20 records that of the 32 descendants of Ham, four settled in unknown places, 23 settled in the Middle East and five settled in Africa. Archeologists tell us that no groups inhabiting the Middle East in Biblical times were negroid. Many had brown, red and white racial characteristics. Ham's descendants appear to be the most varied of Noah's lineage.

        Ham's fourth born son was Canaan. Genesis 10:15-19 identifies a distinctive characteristic of the sons of Canaan: They liked to spread out. The Canaanites are specifically mentioned as migrating far and wide, "…and afterward the families of the Canaanites were spread abroad. The territory of the Canaanites extended from Sidon as you go toward Gerar, as far as Gaza; as you go toward Sodom and Gomorrah and Admah and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha." History indicates they did have a propensity for sprawl. The descendants of Canaan would later make up the vast populations of Asia, Africa and the Western Hemisphere.

        Epypt is one of the most frequently mentioned names in the Bible. Egypt is also synonymous with Mizraim. For example, Misr (Mizraim) is the Arabic name for Epypt. The name Egypt is thought to be derived from the name Hout ka-Ptah or Hi-ku-Ptah, both meaning the "Place of the Spirit of the god Ptah." The name was Hellenized by the Greeks, rendering Hi-ku-ptah as Ai-gu-ptos (Aiguptos), becoming the Latin Aegyptus, and later Egypt in modern English. The term Copt is also believed to be etymologically derived from this name. Hi-ku-Ptah was believed to be located in the capital city of Memphis. In the Bible, Memphis is called Moph or Noph.

        2Zidon (or Sidon) and his descendants settled on the Mediterranean coast of present-day Lebanon, then known as the land of Canaan. The Sidonians called themselves Kena'ani, or Canaanites (likely adopting the name from land of Canaan they newly inhabited). Interestingly, these "new" Canaanites came to speak a Semitic language, probably adopted from a large migration of Semites who came from land and sea, and introduced their language and a sophisticated maritime technology about 1800 B.C. Historians suggest these Canaanites succumbed to racial and linguistic intermixture with the invading Semites, which led to the loss of their own ethnic predominance, as evidenced by modern excavations. They eventually moved westward and occupied a very narrow coastal strip of the east Mediterranean, building new cities, and establishing significant trade with neighboring nations. In fact, the Israelite name for "Canaan" came to mean "traders," though some suggest the name Canaan is from the Hebrew name Hurrian, meaning "land of red purple."

        The Canaanites were known for their red and purple cloth (a purple dye was extracted from murex snails found near the shores of Palestine, a method now lost). The Greeks called the land of Canaan "Phoenicia," which meant "purple." The Phoenicians became a nation of great trade, language, and culture. Phoenician, Hebrew and Moabite were a group of west Semitic languages, all dialects from Canaan, as referred to in Isaiah 19:18. The writing system of the Phoenicians is the source of the writing systems of nearly all of Europe, including Greek, Russian, Hebrew, Arabic and the Roman alphabet. The Phoenician empire fell under Hellenistic rule after being conquered by Alexander the Great about 332 B.C. In 64 B.C. the name of Phoenicia disappeared entirely, becoming a part of the Roman providence of Syria. At the beginning of the Christian era, remaining Phoenicians were the first to accept the Christian faith after the Jews. Zidon's name is still perpetuated in the modern-day city of Sidon (Saidoon is the Phoenician name, Saida in Arabic) in southern Lebanon.

        3Evidence for diverse migrations into the Americas comes from research on living American Indian populations, which includes data from Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) that is passed down from a mother to her children from one generation to the next intact. These studies have consistently shown similarities (deep ancestry) between American Indians and recent populations in Asia, Siberia and northern Scandinavia. These groups include the Lapps in northern Europe/Scandinavia, the Chukchi and Yukaghir in Siberia, plus Indians and Eskimos/Aleuts throughout Canada and North America. There is a wealth of information on the genetic relationship between early Taiwanese populations and southeast Asian, Oceanic (South Pacific) and Native American descendants. Ancient American Indian skeletal remains show a range of physical attributes (round-headed) suggesting separate migrations of different populations from Asia and the South Pacific, representing 97 percent of all modern American Indian populations. What of the other 3 percent?

        There are exceptions. A 1998 DNA study conducted by the Center for Molecular Medicine, Emory University School of Medicine, Atlanta, GA discovered a mtDNA strain in roughly 3% of American Indians (Amerindians) called "Haplogroup X" which suggests a prehistoric migration of peoples to the Americas from the European theater. This genetic inheritance likely reflects transatlantic links since Haplogroup X is not found in Asians, demonstrating the DNA did not originate from those who arrived in the Americas via the Bering Strait. Other researchers conclude that these transatlantic migrations took place before the Asian migrations into Canada and North America. Some experts believe that Haplogroup X provides concrete evidence of European ancestry for certain Native Americans (noted below). This genetic inheritance likely reflects transatlantic links since Haplogroup X is not found in Asians, demonstrating the DNA did not originate from those who arrived in the Americas via the Bering Strait. For example, the Algonquian Indians (Mahicans/Ojibwe) have as high as 40 percent of Haplogroup X, and their distant relatives, the Siouan family of tribes (Sioux), have as high as 15 percent of the DNA. Experts suggest a large amount of gene flow occurred between Algonquian- and Siouan-speaking groups, consistent with archaeological and linguistic evidence. These tribes, initially arriving along the eastern shores of North America, migrated deep inland, also north into Canada. They are the popular red-skinned tribes having a long-head shape similar to that of early Italic peoples in Europe. They are thought to be descendants of Canaanites (Phoenicians) who intermarried with Indo-Europeans while migrating across Europe, and subsequently sailing to North America.

        Having been the largest group of Native Americans in the United States, their DNA stretched across America, though very sparse further west. According to tradition, they populated the Carolinas then migrated to the regions of Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, and eventually Minnesota and the Dakotas. Many of these tribes had fortified villages similar to ancient Canaanites (who lived along the coast of the Mediterranean Sea, including parts of Egypt and the Jordan Valley). Archaeological evidence shows they constructed towns and cities with small pyramids and vast road systems throughout the Mississippi Valley. With them came a tradition that is thought to be a reference to the wives of Noah and his three sons. Four women are identified as "mothers of origin" whose names (possibly Canaanite) have been preserved down through the generations (see name chart below). Additionally, there are striking similarities between the languages of ancient Egypt and those of the Native Americans that inhabited the areas around Louisiana about the time of Christ. Epigraphy experts have stated that the languages of the Attakapa, Tunica and Chitimacha tribes have affinities with Nile Valley (Egyptian) languages involving certain words associated with Egyptian trading communities of 2,000 years ago. Scholars note the Algonquian and Siouan peoples used pictographs and ideographic writing symbols that also have similarities with ancient Canaanites.

        Many groups migrated southwest into Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico and eventually Mexico, establishing the powerful Aztec tribes with their beautiful fortified cities, integrating with the Mayas (who had been there hundreds of years before, and thought of the Aztecs as barbarians). Likely there was a mixing of cultures as they migrated, as there was no conquest of the Maya world by the Aztecs; that title would be given to the Spaniards in the late 17th century. The Aztec's traditions and legends are largely ignored by modern scholars as myths and fables. The Aztecs, according to their own legends, departed from a region in the north called Chicomoztoc, a region that is today the areas of Texas, Oklahoma and New Mexico. Later establishing a city known as Aztlan, somewhere in north or northwest Mexico (now lost), their tribal name Aztec was born. Being nomadic, they eventually reached the valley of Mexico in the 12th century A.D. They were known as fearless warriors and pragmatic builders who raised an enormous city called Tenochtitlan, their capital city (now Mexico City).

        The Aztecs would later call themselves "Mexica" (where Mexico is derived), and their language, Nahuatl, was linguistically related to other native language groups throughout the U.S. southwest and northern Mexico. Linguists note, for instance, the Shoshoni language in the Utah-Nevada region was understood by all the tribes from Mexico, without difficulty. Other related tribes included the Paiute, Hopi, Pima, Yaqui/Apache, Tepehuan, Kiowas and Mayos. Catholic missionaries in the 1850's established the fact that all of those peoples were of one language family. While there are other examples of language similarities, studies of the native languages of the Americas have shown them to be extremely diverse, representing nearly two hundred distinct families, some consisting of a single isolated language.

        Pacific Islanders have a diverse and unique history. These oceanic peoples of the South Pacific, whom we know as Polynesians, Maoris, Tahitians, Samoans, Fijians, Tongans and others, have their roots in southern China. Prior to the Mongols establishing themselves in southern China, there were migrations of Negroid peoples from east Africa and the Sahara. A number of African cultures kept documents and ancient texts, as well as strong oral history and legends, of migrations to ancient China from Africa. Mongol groups later migrated into southern China, resulting in a mixing of cultures. Southern China is thought to have first come into being out of the mixture of Mongoloids and Negroids. These peoples were likely driven out by other aggressive Mongoloids. Being master seafarers, they sailed into Polynesia and the surrounding region, populating the islands of the South Pacific.

        The vast aggregate of peoples who are generally classified as Mongoloid, who settled the Far East, have been a question as to where they fall into the Table of Nations. Evidence shows they are Hamitic, even though some have incorrectly reasoned that the Chinese were of Japhetic stock, and the Japanese were either Japhetic or Semitic. There are two names which provide clues. Two of Canaan's sons, Heth (Hittites) and Sin (Sinites), are presumed to be the progenitors of Chinese and Mongoloid stock. The Hittites were known as the Hatti or Chatti. In Egyptian monuments the Hittite peoples were depicted with prominent noses, full lips, high cheekbones, hairless faces, varying skin color from brown to yellowish and reddish, straight black hair and dark brown eyes. They battled the Egypitan armies of Ramses II in the 13 century B.C., then disappeared forever from history.

        The term Hittite in Cuneiform (the earliest form of writing invented by the Sumerians) appears as Khittae* representing a once powerful nation from the Far East known as the Khitai, also in Hebrew as Khettai, and has been preserved through the centuries in the more familiar term, Cathay. The Cathay were Mongoloids, considered a part of early Chinese stock. There are links between the known Hittites and Cathay, for example, their modes of dress, their shoes with turned-up toes, their manner of doing their hair in a pigtail, and so forth. Representations show them to have possessed high cheekbones, and craniologists have observed that they had common characteristics of Mongoloids.

        *Khittae has, at times, been incorrectly associated with Kittim or Chittim (Greek Kition, Roman Citium, Jewish Cethimus), son of Javan, son of Japheth. Kittim is also the Biblical name for modern-day Cyprus. Javan is the Hebrew word for Greece, appearing five times in the Old Testament. Interestingly enough, Javan has been incorrectly interpreted to mean Japan. History distinctly shows Javan to be the ancestor of the Greeks and other related Mediterranean people groups.

        Sin (or Seni), a brother of Heth, has many occurrences in variant forms in the Far East. There is one significant feature concerning the likely mode of origin of Chinese civilization. The place most closely associated by the Chinese themselves with the origin of their civilization is the capital of Shensi, namely, Siang-fu (Father Sin). Siang-fu appears in Assyrian records as Sianu. Today, Siang-fu can be loosely translated, "Peace to the Western Capital of China." The Chinese have a tradition that their first king, Fu-hi or Fohi (Chinese Noah), made his appearance on the Mountains of Chin, was surrounded by a rainbow after the world had been covered with water, and sacrificed animals to God (corresponding to the Genesis record). Sin himself was the third generation from Noah, a circumstance which would provide the right time interval for the formation of early Chinese culture. In addition, the Miao tribe of southwest China had a tradition similar to the Genesis account, even before they met Christian missionaries. According to their tradition, God destroyed the whole world by a flood because of the wickedness of man, and Nuah (Noah) the righteous man and his wife, their three sons, Lo Han (Ham), Lo Shen (Shem), and Jah-hu (Japheth) survived by building a very broad ship and taking on it pairs of animals.

        There is strong evidence that suggests early Chinese knew of the God of the Bible. There are accounts described in the "Shu Jing" (Book of History), compiled by Confucius, where it is recorded that Emperor Shun (ruled from about 2256 B.C. to 2205 B.C. when the first recorded dynasty began) that he worshiped and sacrificed a bull to "ShangDi." ShangDi literally means "Heavenly Ruler." Linguists point out that ShangDi, Creator-God of the Chinese, is the phonetic equivalent to El Shaddai, Creator-God of the Hebrews. About 700 B.C., the early Zhou pronunciation of ShangDi was "djanh-tigh" (Zhan-dai). The bull was sacrificed at an annual ceremony called a "Border Sacrifice," a rite that did not end until 1911 when the last emperor was deposed. Additionally, recitations from the ancient rite parallel several Bible passages, including the creation account in Genesis. Scholars who have analyzed the most ancient forms of these pictographic Chinese writings (graphic symbols called ideograms), which date from before the time of Moses, have the entire story of creation, the temptation, the fall of man into sin, and God's remedy for sin in the animal sacrifices, which pointed to the coming Savior, Jesus Christ. All the elements of the Genesis narrative are found recorded, and still in use, in Chinese character-writing. This confirms the idea that the ancient Chinese incorporated their early knowledge of Genesis into their written language.

        History has much to say about the descendants of Sin (Seni/Sino) who came from the Far East to trade. They were called Sinæ (Sin) by the Scythians. Ptolemy, a Greek astronomer, referred to China as the land of Sinim or Sinæ. Reference to the Sinim in Isaiah 49:12 notes they came "from afar," specifically not from the north and not from the west. Arabs called China Sin, Chin, Mahachin, Machin. The Sinæ were spoken of as a people in the remotest parts of Asia. For the Sinæ, the most important town was Thinæ, a great trading emporium in western China. The city Thinæ is now known as Thsin or simply Tin, and it lies in the province of Shensi. Much of China was ruled by the Sino-Khitan Empire (960-1126 A.D.), which Beijing became the southern capital. The Sinæ became independent in western China, their princes reigning there for some 650 years before they finally gained dominion over the whole land.

        In the third century B.C., the dynasty of Tsin became supreme. The word Tsin itself came to have the meaning of purebred. This word was assumed as a title by the Manchu Emperors and is believed to have been changed into the form Tchina. From there the term was brought into Europe as China, probably from the Ch'in or Qin dynasty (255-206 B.C.). The Greek word for China is Kina (Latin is Sina). As well, Chinese and surrounding languages are part of the Sino-Tibetan language family. Years ago, American newspapers regularly carried headlines with reference to the conflict between the Chinese and Japanese in which the ancient name reappeared in its original form, the Sino-Japanese war. Sinology refers to the study of Chinese history.

        With respect to the Cathay people of historical reference, it would make sense to suppose that the remnants of the Hittites, after the destruction of their empire, traveled towards the east and settled among the Sinites who were relatives, contributing to their civilization, and thus becoming the ancestors of the Asian people groups. They are found together in major historical events that formed the Chinese nation and its people. Still others migrated throughout the region and beyond, making up present-day Mongoloid races in Asia and the Americas. The evidence strongly suggests that Ham's grandsons, Heth (Hittites/Cathay) and Sin (Sinites/China), are the ancestors of Mongoloid peoples.

        There are many native African tribes which trace themselves back traditionally to Ham. The Yoruba, who are black skinned, for example, claim to be descendants of Nimrod, son of Cush, whereas the Libyans, who are much lighter skinned, are traced back to Phut (Phut is the Hebrew name for Libya). Ethiopians still trace their ancestry back to Cush. To this day Cush has many tribal and ethnic designations in Africa and Arabia. The Egyptians were direct descendants of Mizraim (Mizraim is the Hebrew name for Egypt). Today, "Misr" is the name Egyptians use to refer to their country. Ancient Egyptians have been considered the greatest technicians in all human history. Other African groups trace their roots back to Ham or one of his descendants. It is therefore suggested that all of Africa, despite the different shades of color of its native populations, was initially settled by various members of this one Hamitic family. In the course of time, some of these people groups had migrations to Australia, Melanesia, New Guinea and the surrounding region. For example, there is evidence of similarities in the form of horticulture found in the Sahara and in Papua New Guinea. Recent studies from archaeology have discovered there was once extensive trade between east Africa and New Guinea.

        The evidence appears to point consistently in the same direction, supporting that not only Africa with its black races, but the Far East, the Americas, Australia and the Oceanic nations with their colored races were all descendants of Ham. The Hamitic people were the first to reach the far and distant lands of the world, preparing the way for the future. Their inventions and discoveries made a significant impact on the world, and provided inspiration for those to follow.

        Japheth. Also Diphath. Literal meanings are opened, enlarged, fair or light (father of the Caucasoid/Indo-Europoid, Indo-European, Indo-Germanic, or Indo-Aryan people groups – Japhethites). Japheth is the progenitor of seven sons:

        (1) Gomer "complete" (sons were Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah) – also Gamir, Gommer, Gomeri, Gomeria, Gomery, Goth, Guth, Gutar, Götar, Gadelas, Galic, Gallic, Galicia, Galica, Galatia, Gael, Galatae, Galatoi, Gaul, Galls, Goar, Celt, Celtae, Celticae, Kelt, Keltoi, Gimmer, Gimmerai, Gimirra, Gimirrai, Gimirraya, Kimmer, Kimmeroi, Kimirraa, Kumri, Umbri, Cimmer, Cimmeria, Cimbri, Cimbris, Crimea, Chomari, Cymric, Cymry, Cymru, Cymbry, Cumber (Cimmerians, Caledonians, Picts, Milesians, Umbrians, Helvetians, Celts1, Galatians, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Goths, Vandals, Scandinavians, Jutes, Teutons, Franks, Burgundians, Alemanni, Germans, Belgians, Dutch, Luxembourgers, Liechensteiners, Austrians, Swiss, Angles, Saxons, Britons, English, Cornish, Irish, Welsh, Scots, French, and other related groups);

        (2) Magog "land of Gog" (sons were Elichanaf, Lubal, Baath, Jobhath and Fathochta) – also Gog, Cog, Gogh, Gogue, Gogarene, Jagog, Yajuj, Majuj, Juz, Majuz, Agag, Magug, Magogae, Magogue, Ma-Gogue, Mugogh, Mat Gugi, Gugu, Gyges, Bedwig, Moghef, Magogian, Massagetae, Getae, Dacae, Sacae, Saka, Scyth, Skythe, Scythi, Scythii, Scythini, Scythia, Scythae, Sythia, Scythes, Skuthai, Skythai, Cathaia, Scythia, Skythia, Scynthia, Scynthius, Sythian, Skudra Sclaveni, Samartian, Sogdian, Slovon, Skodiai, Scotti, Skolot, Skoloti, Scoloti, Skolo-t, Skoth-ai, Skoth, Skyth, Skuthes, Skuth-a, Slavs, Ishkuzai, Askuza, Askuasa, Alani, Alans, Alanic, Ulan, Uhlan (Scythians, Scots); also Rasapu, Rashu, Rukhs, Rukhs-As, Rhos, Ros, Rosh, Rox, Roxolani, Rhoxolani, Ruskolan, Rosichi, Rhossi, Rusichi, Rus, Ruska, Rossiya, Rusian (Russians4, Belarusians, Ukrainians, Chechens, Dagestanis); also Mas-ar, Mas-gar, Masgar, Mazar, Madj, Madjar, Makr-on, Makar, Makaroi, Merkar, Magor, Magar, Magyar (Hungarians – also Huns, Hungar, Hunugur, Hurri, Gurri, Onogur, Ugor, Ungar, Uhor, Venger); Yugoslavians, Finns, Lapps, Estonians, Siberians, Voguls, Poles, Czechs, Croatians, Bosnians, Montenegrins, Mordvins, Serbians, Slovenians, Slovakians, Karelians, Komi-Zyrians, Udmurts, Izhorians, Livonians, Bulgarians, Avars, Tartars, Turks, Colchi, Armenians, Georgians and other related groups).

        (3) Madai "middle land" (sons were Achon, Zeelo, Chazoni and Lotalso) – also Mada, Amada, Madae, Madea, Manda, Maday, Media, Madaean, Mata, Matiene, Mitani, Mitanni, Minni, Megala (Medes, Aryans, Persians, Parsa, Parsees, Achaemenians, Manneans, Caspians, Kassites, Iranians, Achaemenians, Kurds, north and NW Indians, Romani, Pathans, Hazaras), including the peoples of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Azerbaijan, Khazachstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikstan and Kyrgyzstan, and other related groups;

        (4) Javan "miry" (sons were Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim and Dodanim) – also Jevanim, Iewanim, Iawan, Iawon, Iamanu, Iones, Ionians, Ellas, Ellines, El-li-ness, Hellas, Hellenes, Yavan, Yavanas, Yawan, Yuban, Yauna, Uinivu, Xuthus (Grecians, Greeks, Elysians, Spartans, Dorians, Tartessians, Britons6, Aeolians, Achaeans, Myceneans, Macedonians, Albanians, Carthaginians, Cyprians, Cypriots, Cretans, Latins, Venetians, Sicanians, Italics, Romans7, Valentians, Sicilians, Cilicians, Italians, Spaniards, Portugese, other related groups);

        (5) Tubal "brought" (sons were Ariphi, Kesed and Taari) – also Tabal, Tabali, Tubalu, Thobal, Thobel (Thobelites, Iberoi, Ibers, Iberians, Ivernians, Irish8, Spanish, other related groups), Tbilisi, Tibarenoi, Tibareni, Tibar, Tibor, Sabir, Sapir, Sabarda, Subar, Subartu, Tobol, Tobolsk (Cossacks, Samoyeds, Siberians, other related groups);

        (6) Meshech "drawing out" (sons were Dedon, Zaron and Shebashnialso) – Me'shech, Mes'ek, Meshekh, Meshwesh, Meskhi, Meschera, Mushch, Muschki, Mushki, Mishi, Muski, Mushku, Musku, Muskeva, Muska, Muskaa, Muskai, Maskali, Machar, Maskouci, Mazakha, Mazaca, Mtskhetos, Modar-es, Moskhi, Moshkhi, Mosah, Mosher, Moshch, Moschis, Mosoch, Moschi, Moschian, Moshakian, Mo'skhoi, Moschoi, Mosochenu, Mosochean, Mossynes, Mosynoeci, Moskva, Moscovy, Moscow (Muscovites, Latvians, Lithuanians, Romanians, other related groups);

        (7) Tiras "desire" (sons were Benib, Gera, Lupirion and Gilak) – also Tiracian, Thracian, Thirasian, Thiras, Thuras, Tyritae, Thrasus, Thrace, Trausi, Tereus, Trecae, Troas, Tros, Troia, Troiae, Troyes, Troi, Troy, Troya, Trajan, Trojan, Taunrus, Tyras, Tyrsen, Tyrrhena, Illyrian, Ilion, Ilium, Rasenna, Tursha, Tusci, Tuscany, Etruria, Etruschi, Etruscan, Eturscan, Euskadi, Euskara (Basque9), Erul, Herul, Heruli, Erilar, Vanir, Danir, Daner, Aesar, Aesir, Asir, Svear, Svea, Svie, Svioner, Svenonian, Urmane, Norge (Leleges, Carians, Pelasgians, Scandinavians10, Varangians, Vikings, Swedes, Norwegians, Danes, Icelandics, Baltics, other related groups).

        The Japhetic people are, in general, the peoples of India and Europe (Indo-European stock), with which any demographer is familiar11.

        The whole Celtic race has been regarded as descended from Gomer, though history suggests modern Celts are descended from both Gomer and Magog. Archaeologists and ethnologists agree that the first Indo-European group to spread across Europe were Celts. The Irish Celts claim to be to the descendants of Magog, while the Welsh Celts claim to be to the descendants of Gomer. Irish chronicles, genealogies, plus an extensive number of manuscripts which have survived from ancient times, reveal their roots. The Irish were descendants of Scythians, also known as Magogians, which is strongly supported by etymological evidence. Archaeological evidence shows that both the Celts (from Gomer) and Scythians (from Magog) freely shared and mingled cultures at their earliest stages. Russian and eastern European excavations plainly reveal the blending of these two groups. Their geographical locations (what is now eastern Europe, southern Russia and Asia Minor) were referred to by the Greeks under the name of Celto-Scythae, which was populated by the Celts to the south and west, and the Scythians to the north. The ancient Greeks first called the northern peoples by the general name of Scythae; but when they became acquainted with the nations in the west, they began to call them by the different names of Celts, including the Celto-Scythae. Celts and Scythians were considered essentially the same peoples, based on geography, though many independent tribes of Celts and Scythians existed. The Latins called them "Galli," and the Romans referred to them as "Gauls." Later names used by Greeks were the Galatai or Galatae, Getae, Celtae and Keltoi. In the third century before Christ (about 280 B.C.), the Gauls invaded Rome and were ultimately repelled into Greece, where they migrated into the north-central part of Asia Minor (Anatolia). Known as fiercely independent peoples, they conquered the indigenous peoples of that region and established their own independent kingdom. The land became known as Galatia. The Apostle Paul wrote his famous epistle to their descendants, the Galatians. Jewish historian Flavius Josephus wrote that the Galatians or Gauls of his day (93 A.D.) were previously called Gomerites.
        Early Celtic tribes (from Gomer) settled much of the European theater, including present-day Spain, France, England and Germany, prior to contact with Scythians. For many centuries France was called Gaul, after the Celtic descendants of Gomer, whom ceded the territory to Romans and Germanic/Teutonic Franks (whence France) in the 4th century A.D. Northwest Spain is called Galicia to this day. Some of the Gomerites migrated further to what is now called Wales. The Welsh claim their ancestors "first landed on the Isle of Britain from France, about three hundred years after the flood." The Celtic language survives intact today mainly in the two variants of Welsh and Irish/Scottish Gaelic. The Welsh call their language Gomeraeg (after Gomer). The Celts of today are descendants of Gomer, and of the blended tribes of Magog and Gomer.

        Present-day Germanic people groups are descendants of both Japheth and Shem, and there are several references from recent and ancient history. Recent history records the descendants of Gomer migrated and settled in the region that is now northern Europe (Germany and Scandinavia). These tribes became the Goths, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Teutons and Burgundians, descendants of some of the first peoples to migrate to northern Europe from ancient times—the Askaeni. The Askaeni were descendants of Ashkenaz, son of Gomer, son of Japheth. When the Askaeni arrived in northern Europe, they named the land Ascania after themselves, which later translated Scandia, then Scandinavia. Later in history, we find the Askaeni being referred to as Sakasenoi, which became Sachsen, and finally Saxon. The Saxons played an large part in European and English history. Ashkenaz has been one of the most well preserved names throughout European history.

        Semitic peoples also migrated to central Europe (southern Germany, Austria and Switzerland). These people were the descendants of Asshur, son of Shem, where Germans originated. Asshur is well known in history as the father of the Assyrians. In the Aramaic language, "Aturaye" means Assyrian, and the land of the Assyrians is called "Atur," which became "Tyr" or "Teiw" by early Germanic peoples. Later, the name linguistically changes to "Ziu." Germans likely derived their identity and language from these ancestral names. The earliest known name of the German language was called "Diutisc," which later becomes Dietsch, Deutsch or Deutsche (what Germans call themselves today). Deutschland (land of the Deutsch) could be called "Asshurland." The Romans referred to the Deutschen as Teutons or Teutones. The Teutons were a tribe of Germans nearly wiped out by Romans in the second century B.C.

        The term "German" comes from Latin (Roman) sources. The Assyrians occupied a Mesopotamian city on the lower Tigris River called "Kir" and placed captive slaves there (also referenced in 2 Kings 16:9, Isaiah 22:5-6, Amos 1:5, 9:7). The city was populated by the Assyrians for many years, and the inhabitants became known as "Kir-man." The Assyrians (Kerman) were driven from their land shortly after their fall about 610 B.C. They migrated into central Europe where they were called "German" or "Germanni," a general name used by the Romans to represent all Assyrian tribes. The known Assyrian tribes were the Khatti (also, Chatti, Hatti and Hessian)—Chatti is still the Hebrew term for German, and Khatti was also used by the Romans to represent various Germanic tribes; the Akkadians (Latins called them Quadians); the Kassites (or Cossaei); and the Almani (or Halmani, Allemani was the Latin name). Almani or Almain were historical terms for Germans living in southern Germany.

        One of the earliest references to Gog is thought to come from Assyrian inscriptions in the 9th century B.C. referencing "Mat Gugi," meaning "country of the Gugu." Hesiod, considered the father of Greek didactic poetry and literature, identified Magog with the Scythians and southern Russia in the 7th century B.C., written prior the book of Ezekiel. Hesiod likely derived this from the Colchi people (a Thracian tribe) where, in their ancient Chaldaic language, described the region of southern Russia as "Gog-chasan" or "Gog-hasan" (Arabic "Gog-i-hisn") meaning "fortress of Gog" or "Gog's fort." There are scholars who also suggest that Gog and Magog, as a region, is where the name "Caucasus" originated. Certain scholars speculate the name "Caucasus" was derived from "Gog-chasan" which the Greeks translated as Gogasus or Caucasus. The Caucasus is generally considered the land between the Black and Caspian seas.

        Greek historian Herodotus, whom historians call "the father of history," mentions in the 5th century B.C. a people living around the Caucasus mountains called "Gargarians." Greek myth depicted the Gargarians as "Gorgons," which eventually became Gorgene or Gorgaene. He also wrote extensively about the descendants of Magog by their Greek name, the Scythians, about 150 years after Ezekiel. He wrote of "Royal Scythians" who ruled over all other Scythians of Scythia. Herodotus describes them as living in the territory north of the Black Sea, and that they terrorized the southern steppes of Russia beginning in the 10th century B.C. Numerous archaeological discoveries have confirmed Herodotus' reports in general, and his Scythian accounts in particular. Flavius Josephus, Jewish and Roman historian, continued with that reference in the 1st century A.D. when he records that Magogians were called "Scythians" by the Greeks. Philo, Greek and Jewish philosopher in the 1st century A.D., also identified Magog with southern Russia.

        The Gargarians show up again in Greek history. Strabo, early 1st century Greek historian, geographer and philosopher, famous for his 17-volume work Geographica which presented a descriptive history of people and places from different regions of the world known to his era, mentions "Gogarene" as a region in Iberia (present-day Armenia and Georgia). Scholars agree Gogarene is one of the best preserved names from Gog, which belonged to the Caucasian Iberian kingdom (present-day Armenia and Georgia) up to the 2nd century B.C. Aelius Herodianus, Greek and Roman scholar of antiquity, called the region "Goerene" in the 2nd century A.D. In the 5th century A.D., a viceroy in the region of old Armenia called himself Achoucha Gougarqtzi (Arshusha of Gogarene). In the 6th century A.D., geographer Stephanus of Byzantium referred to the region as Gogarene, and in the 7th century the region was known as Gougarq. Today it still exists as Gugark, a historical region in Armenia. As noted earlier, commentators suggest Georgia also derived its name from Gogarene, and today the Turkish name for Georgia is Gurgistan. In recent history, certain Georgians referred to themselves as "Gogi." Interestingly, a peculiar Skythian people, who appear at the end of the 4th century A.D., called the Geougen (also Jou-jan, Jeu-jen, Juan-juan or Jwen-jwen), emerging as a powerful empire in the region of Tartary (Mongolia). Scholars suggest they were a mixture of eastern Huns (Skythian) and Tungus (Manchu) peoples, who for a short time became a Central Asian group of historical importance. The empire of the Geougen lasted from the end of the 4th century A.D. to the middle of the 6th century.

        Magog's name is also preserved. Albius Tibullus, Latin poet in the 1st century B.C., mentions a people living on the River Tanais (present-day River Don) called "Magini" or "Magotis", whom scholars say were from the colonies of Magog. The Greeks called the area where the Magini lived along the Tanais, the "Maeotian marshes" where the river emptied into the Maeotian Lake (present day Sea of Azov). The marshes served as a checkpoint to the westward migration of nomad peoples from the steppe of Central Asia. The area was named after the Maitois or Maeotae people (as the Greeks and Latins called them) who lived around the Maeotian Lake or Sea. Jerome (who translated the Latin Vulgate), an Illyrian Christian apologist of the late 4th and early 5th centuries, affirms "the Jews of this age understood by Magog the vast and innumerable nations of Scythia, about Mount Caucasus, and the Palus Maeotis (Latin for Maeotis Sea), and stretching along the Caspian Sea to India." Scholars suggest that at the early stages Magogites assimilated with Skythians, thus making up a part of the early Scythian hordes. In fact, wherever or whenever we see references to Gog and Magog in name or place, we also see the Skythians. Many of the mountains peaks in the Caucasian mountains and land areas there retained the place name "Gog" in medieval European and Armenian maps. Scholars also regard Gog and Magog as the wild tribes of Central Asia, including the Scythians, Alans, Parthians, Turks, Tartars, Mongols, and Huns, who had been making incursions on various kingdoms and empires from very ancient times. Russian traveller Jacob Reineggs, who visited the Caucasus five times in the 18th century, left many records of people groups he enountered. He discovered in the central Caucasus a people called Thiulet, who lived amidst mountains called Ghef or Gogh. The very highest of these mountains, lying to the north of their country, they knew by the name of Moghef or Mugogh. These place names are Gog and Magog derivatives.

        the Scythians are descended from Ashkenaz, son of Gomer, son of Japheth, and first appear in Assyrian records as "Askuza" or "Ishkuzai." The Assyrians tell of the Askuza as being involved in a revolt and pouring in from the north some time around the beginning of the 7th century B.C., which is also mentioned in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 51:27). The Askuza later became the Skythai (Scythians) of Herodotus. According to scholars, ancient peoples known as the Sarmatians (not to be confused with the Samaritans) and Alans lived in the area around the Caspian Sea from about 900 B.C. Sarmatian and Alani tribes were later called Scythians (Slav and Turkic peoples of today), who were also known as the Rukhs-As, Rashu, Rasapu, Rhossi, Rosh, Ros, and Rus. There is no debate that they were the inhabitants of southern Russia, and the existence of the names of rivers, such as the "Ros," refer to Rus populations. Much later, about 739 A.D., the word Rus appears again in eastern Europe, interestingly, from a different source. Finnish peoples referred to Swedes as "Ruotsi," "Rotsi" or "Rus" in contrast with Slavic peoples, which was derived from the name of the Swedish maritime district in Uppland, "Roslagen," and its inhabitants, called "Rodskarlar." Rodskarlar or Rothskarlar meant "rowers" or "seamen." Those Swedish conquerors (called Varangians [Vikings] by the Slavs), settled in eastern Europe, adopted the names of local tribes, integrated with the Slavs, and eventually the word "Rusi," "Rhos" or "Rus" came to refer to the inhabitants. Russia means "land of the Rus." Scholars continue to debate the origin of the word Rus, which has derived from two sources: the Ruotsi or Rhos, the Finnish names for the Swedes, and earlier from the Scythians known as Rashu or Rosh in southern Russia.

        The Aryans first come into historical view about a thousand years before Christ, invading India and threatening Babylonia. Historians of old reference an Aryan chief called Cyaxeres, king of the Medes and Persians. The Medes and Persians seem to have been tribes of one nation, more or less united under the rule of Cyaxeres. Elam (son of Shem) is the ancient name for Persia. Elamites are synonymous with Persians. The Persians are thus descended from both Elam, the son of Shem, and from Madai, the son of Japheth. The Medes and Persians had settled in what is now modern Persia, the Medes in the north, the Persians in the south. The most notable Persians of today are the Iranians. Interestingly, the word Iran is a derivative of Aryan. The Medo-Persian people groups are divided into hundreds of clans, some sedentary and others nomadic. All speak Indo-European languages, and some groups have pronounced Mongoloid physical characteristics and cultural traits, derived from Mongolian invasions and subsequent cultural integration. An example today would be the Uzbeks of Uzbekistan, and remnant groups living in Afghanistan and parts of Central Asia.

        The history of Britain can be traced back to the sons of Japheth. Historical evidence strongly suggests the first inhabitants of the British isles were the descendants of Javan (from his sons Elishah and Tarshish), and of Gomer and Magog. Gomerites are today's modern Welsh. Traditional Welsh belief is that the descendants of Gomer arrived about three hundred years after the flood, and the Welsh language was once called Gomeraeg. The Welsh (Celts) are thought to have created Stonehenge. Additionally, the descendants of Tarshish (Elishah&#0

      • Probably, Mad Mac does not even bother to go through the links and just copies and pastes truckloads of Jewish garbage. I am producing more excerpts from those links that I provided for his better understanding. “The table preserves the names of many ethnic peoples the Hebrews encountered or knew of through trade links. For example, Gen. 10: 16 mentions the Amorites, who were a historical Semitic population of Syria. Most modern scholars date Genesis to the 6th century BC, however it is most likely the authors were drawing from earlier Mesopotamian literary sources (Graves and Patai, 2004). The authors of the table constructed a fictional geneaology for all tribes appearing on the list, linking them all to one of Noah’s three sons: Shem, Ham or Japheth. As the distinguished Hebrew scholar Samuel Rolles Driver came to discover (1906: 112): “The nations and tribes existed […] imaginary ancestors were afterwards postulated for the purpose of exhibiting pictorially the relationship in which they were supposed to stand towards one another.” In other words while the table contains genuine ethnographical content, the genealogies of tribes were entirely fabricated by the Hebrews. This is evident by the table itself, for example some tribes listed as having descended from Shem, were not in fact Semites, having spoken a non-Semitic language (Bromiley, 1995: 388): “The Elamites and Lydians (cf. Gen. 10:22) are not Semites in the modem classification, whereas the Amorites and Canaanites (which the Table of Nations considers to be descendants of Ham; cf. Gen. 10:15f.) are Semites”.

        I have pointed out to the anomalies regarding the supposed Chinese connection to Bible on a different blog.

        Also, do make it a point to go through the link I provided on the previous post and find out how the Aryan invasion/migration theory is being seriously questioned with recent findings in genetic studies. The AIT has been disproved and in fact mtDNA also supports the falsification of the controversial Aryan migration theory.

        Probably, you seem to be possessed by the Satan himself and hence this frenzied copy pasting overdrive. Loads of junk do not validate your argument. It is the cogency of arguments that matter. So, get your act together and no more copy-pasting irrelevant stuff please. It becomes extremely difficult to locate individual posts amidst such heaps of garbage. A link will suffice.

      • My friend,

        Let me tell you this secret. After the Noah’s flood, Samael/Satan brought forth demons for which Noah prayed (Book of Enoch/Book of Jubilees). Those demons brought idoltry and misled the people. Then, after Satan was defeated on the cross, he took 600 years to bring in another counter religion called Islam thru the schizophrenic Mohummad. His success was not upto the mark in both of his endeavours, so he brought atheism, a dangerous religion defying self existence of God and Satan himself. Atheism is a religion based on bad science and you are telling me to read the filthy material of a satanic religion and believe in it.

        You say that in 6th c. BC they wrote Genesis. Get a life! The history is recorded since the time of Adam. Enoch has become the scribe of God.

        This is the geneology of Adam’s descendents; (The dating system starts with the creation as year zero i.e. A.M. Anno Mundi “in the year of the world”).

        FIRST GENERATION
        1. The earth was created on 25 March, 4001 BC. Adam was created on Saturday the first day of Nisan in the year zero which was 31 March 4001 BC. Eve was more “made” than created so her date is unknown. She could have been formed on the sixth day or later but it is not worth arguing about. Adam and Eve were married that year in the Garden of Eden. Having been created by God to be perfect and to live for eternity they lost that position when they disobeyed God’s command. Because of their sin they were condemned to die. Adam and Eve were 130 years old when Seth was born. Adam died at the age of 930 years in the year 930. Adam and Eve had the following sons plus other sons and daughters:

        2 i. Cain. He killed his brother Abel and was banished. He married one of his sisters.
        3 ii. Abel. Dates for Cain and Able are unknown.
        +4 iii. Seth.

        SECOND GENERATION
        4. Seth was born in 130 and died in 1042. He was 105 years old when his son Enosh was born and he died at the age of 912 years:
        +5 i. Enosh.

        THIRD GENERATION
        5. Enosh was born in 235 and died in 1140. He was 90 years old when his son Kenan was born and he died at the age of 905 years:
        +6 i. Kenan (Cainan).

        FOURTH GENERATION
        6. Kenan (Cainan) was born in 325. He was 70 years old when Mahalalel was born and he died in 1235 at the age of 910:
        +7 i. Mahalalel.

        FIFTH GENERATION
        7. Mahalale was born in 395. He was 65 when his son Jared was born and he died in 1290 at the age of 895.
        +8 i. Jared.

        SIXTH GENERATION
        8. Jared was born in 460. He was 162 when his son Enoch was born and he died in 1422 at the age of 962.
        +9 i. Enoch.

        SEVENTH GENERATION
        9. Enoch was born in 622. He was 65 when Methuselah was born and he did not die but was taken up into heaven in 987 at the age of 365 years.
        +10 i. Methuselah.

        EIGHTH GENERATION
        10. Methuselah was born in 687. He was 187 years old when Lamech was born and he died in 1656, the year of the flood, at the age of 969 years.
        +11 i. Lamech.

        NINTH GENERATION
        11. Lamech was born in 874. He was 182 when his son Noah was born and he died in 1651 at the age of 777 years.
        +12 i. Noah.

        TENTH GENERATION
        12. Noah was born in 1056. Noah was 502 years old when Shem was born and he died in 2006 at the age of 950 years. During the time from Adam to Noah there was a tremendous increase in wickedness in the world. God decided to destroy the civilization of that day and build another one from Noah’s family. God commanded Noah to built a three deck boat to save his family and animals from the world wide flood. Only Noah, his wife, his three sons, and their wives were saved. The flood occurred in the year 1656 when Noah was 600 years old. According to Jewish tradition, Noah was married to Naamah the daughter of Lemach and Zillah, of the descendants of Cain. Her brother was Tubal-Cain a worker of bronze and iron. Noah and Naamah had the following children:
        +13 i. Japheth.
        +14 ii. Ham.
        +15 iii. Shem.

        ELEVENTH GENERATION
        13. Japheth, the first born son of Noah, had the following children. His birth and death dates are unknown.
        16 i. Gomer.
        17 ii. Magog.
        18 iii. Madai.
        19 iv. Javan.
        20 v. Tubal.
        21 vi. Meshech.
        22 vii. Tiras.

        14. Ham, the second son of Noah had the following children. His birth and death dates are unknown.
        23 i. Cush, the father of Nimrod.
        24 ii. Mizraim.
        25 iii. Put.
        26 iv. Canaan.

        15. Shem was born in 1560. Shem was 98 at the time of the flood. He was 100 when Arphaxad was born and died in 2160 at the age of 600 years. He had the following children:
        27 i. Elam, born in 1658.
        28 ii. Asshur, born in 1659.
        +29 iii. Arphaxad.
        30 iv. Lud.
        +31 v. Aram.

        TWELFTH GENERATION
        29. Arphaxad, the son of Shem, was born in 1660 in Shinar. He was 35 when his son Shelah was born and he died in 2098 at the age of 438 years.
        + ** Cainan
        +45 i. Shelah.

        31. Aram, the son of Shem, had the following children: His birth and death dates are unknown.
        46 i. Uz.
        47 ii. Hul.
        48 iii. Gether.
        49 iv. Meshech.

        THIRTEENTH GENERATION
        ** Cainan is listed in Luke’s genealogy as the son of Araphaxad and the father of Shelah but he is not listed in the Hebrew text of the Old Testament. He is listed in the Septuagint Version which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament. At the present time it is impossible to know how this name came to be listed. Was it accidentally added or dropped by the copiers of the text?

        45. Shelah was born in 1695 in Shinar. He was 30 when his son Eber was born and he died in 2128 in Shinar at the age of 433 years.
        +52 i. Eber.

        FOURTEENTH GENERATION
        52. Eber was born in 1725 in Shinar. During his life time God confused the languages and the people were divided. He was 34 when Peleg was born whose name means divided. The word “Hebrew” comes from Eber for he was the father of the Hebrew race. He died in 2189 in Shinar at the age of 464 years.
        +53 i. Peleg.
        +54 ii. Joktan.

        FIFTEENTH GENERATION
        53. Peleg was born in 1759 in Shinar. He was 30 when Reu was born and he died in 1998 in Mesha at the age of 239 years. Peleg’s birth in 1759 dates the tower of Babel.
        +55 i. Reu.

        54. Joktan had the following children: His dates of birth and death are unknown.
        56 i. Almodad.
        57 ii. Sheleph.
        58 iii. Hazarmaveth.
        59 iv. Jerah.
        60 v. Hadoram.
        61 vi. Uzal.
        62 vii. Diklah.
        63 viii. Obal.
        64 ix. Abimael.
        65 x. Sheba.
        66 xi. Ophir.
        67 xii. Havilah.
        68 xiii. Jobab.

        SIXTEENTH GENERATION
        55. Reu was born in 1789 in Mesha. He was 32 when his son Serug was born. He lived for 239 years and died in 2028 in Mesha.
        +69 i. Serug.

        SEVENTEENTH GENERATION
        69. Serug was born in 1821 in Mesha. He was 30 when his son Nahor was born. He lived to be 239 years old and died in 2051 in Mesha.
        +70 i. Nahor.

        EIGHTEENTH GENERATION
        70. Nahor was born in 1851 in Ur of Chaldea. He was 29 when Terah was born and he lived to be 148 years old and he died in 1999 in Ur of Chaldea.
        +71 i. Terah.

        NINETEENTH GENERATION
        71. Terah was born in 1880 in Ur of Chaldea. He was 70 when Abram, his youngest son was born. He lived to the age of 205 years and died in 2085 in Ur of Chaldea. He had the following children.
        +72 i. Haran.
        +73 ii. Nahor.
        +74 iii. Abram (Abraham).
        75 iv. Sarai (Sarah).

        ( = an ancestor of Jesus.)
        NINETEENTH GENERATION.
        71. Terah was born in 1880 in Ur of Chaldea. He was 70 when Abram, his youngest son, was born. He lived to the age of 205 years and died in 2085 in Ur of Chaldea. He had the following children.
        +72 i. Haran.
        +73 ii. Nahor.
        +74 iii. Abram (Abraham).
        +75 iv. Sarai (Sarah).

        20TH GENERATION.
        72. Haran was born in Ur of Chaldea. He had the following children and died in Ur of Chaldea.
        76 i. Iscah was born in Ur of Chaldea and died there.
        +77 ii. Lot.
        78 iii. Milcah.

        73. Nahor was born and died in Ur of Chaldea. He was married to Milcah (Number 78) his niece and the daughter of Haran in Ur of Chaldea. She was born and died in Ur of Chaldea. Nahor and Milcah had the following children, all born in Ur, Chaldea :
        79 i. Uz.
        80 ii. Buz.
        81 iii. Kemuel.
        82 iv. Kesed.
        83 v. Hazo.
        84 vi. Pildash.
        85 vii. Jidlaph.
        +86 viii. Bethuel.

        74. Abram (Abraham) was born in 1950 in Ur of Chaldea. He immigrated in 2025 to Canaan. He died in 2125 in Hebron, Canaan. He was buried in the Cave of Machpelah near Mamre. Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born and he died at the age of 175 years. He married Sarai (Sarah – Number 75) who was born in Ur of Chaldea. Her father was Terah and a half sister of Abraham. She died in Kiriath Arba (Hebron), Canaan. She was buried in the Cave of Machpelah near Mamre. She lived to be 127 years old. Abraham and Sarah had the following son:
        +87 i. Isaac.

        Abraham had a son by Hagar who was born in Egypt. Abram (Abraham) and Hagar had the following son:
        +88 i. Ishmael.

        Abraham also married Keturah and they had the following children all born in Beersheba, Canaan:
        89 i. Zimran .
        +90 ii. Jokshan.
        91 iii. Medan.
        +92 iv. Midian.
        93 v. Ishbak.
        94 vi. Shuah.

        21ST GENERATION.
        77. Lot, the son of Haran, was born in Ur of Chaldea and died in Zoar in Canaan. He had the following sons:
        95 i. Moab was born in Canaan. He was the father of the Moabites.
        96 ii. Ben-Ammi was born in Canaan. He became the father of the Ammonites.

        86. Bethuel was born in Ur of Chaldea. He died in Paddan Aram, Aramea and had the following children:
        +98 i. Laban.
        99 ii. Rebekah.

        87. Isaac was born in 2050 in The Negev, Canaan. He died in 2230 in Mamre (Hebron), Canaan at the age of 180 years. He was buried in the Cave of Machpelah near Mamre. He married Rebekah (Number 99) the daughter of Bethuel in 2090 in Canaan. Rebekah was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea. She died in Canaan and was buried in the Cave of Machpelah near Mamre. Isaac and Rebekah had twin sons:
        +100 i. Esau.
        +101 ii. Jacob.

        88. Ishmael was born in 2035 in Canaan. He died in 2172 in the Desert of Paran at the age of 137 years. His wife was from Egypt and they had the following children all born in the Desert of Paran:
        102 i. Nabaioth.
        103 ii. Kedar.
        104 iii. Adbeel.
        105 iv. Mibsam.
        106 v. Mishma.
        107 vi. Dumah.
        108 vii. Massa.
        109 viii. Hadad.
        110 ix. Tema.
        111 x. Jetur.
        112 xi. Naphish.
        113 xii. Kedemah.
        114 xiii. Basemath. She became the wife of Esau.

        90. Jokshan, the son of Abraham and Keturah, was born in Beersheba, Canaan and he had the following children:
        115 i. Sheba.
        116 ii. Dedan.

        92. Midian, the son of Abraham and Keturah, was born in Beersheba, Canaan and he had the following children:
        117 i. Ephah.
        118 ii. Epher.
        119 iii. Hanoch.
        120 iv. Adiba.
        121 v. Eldaah.

        22ND GENERATION.
        98. Laban, the son of Bethuel, was born and died in Paddan Aram, Aramea. He had the following two daughters plus other sons:
        122 i. Leah.
        123 ii. Rachel.

        100. Esau was born in 2110 in Beer Lahai Roi, Canaan and died in Seir, Edom. He married Adah of Canaan the daughter of Elon the Hittite. She died in Seir, Edom. Esau and Adah had the following son:
        124 i. Eliphaz.

        Esau also married Oholibamah of Canaan the daughter of Anah. She died in Seir, Edom. Esau and Oholibamah had the following sons who were born in Canaan and died in Seir, Edom:
        125 i. Jeush.
        126 ii. Jalam.
        127 iii. Korah.

        Esau also married Basemath (Number 114) the daughter of Ishmael who was born in the Desert of Paran, Canaan They were married in Canaan and she died in Seir, Edom. Esau and Basemath had the following son:
        128 i. Reuel.

        101. Jacob was born in 2110 in Beer Lahai Roi, Canaan. He died in 2257 at the age of 147 years in Goshen, Egypt. He was buried in 2257 in the Cave of Machpelah near Mamre. He was around 49 years old when his first son Reuben was born. He first married Leah (Number 122) the daughter of Laban in Paddan Aram, Aramea. She was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea and died in Canaan. She was buried in the Cave of Machpelah near Mamre. Jacob and Leah had the following six sons and one daughter:
        +129 i. Reuben.
        +130 ii. Simeon.
        +131 iii. Levi.
        +132 iv. Judah.
        +133 v. Issachar.
        +134 vi. Zebulum.
        135 vii. Dinah.

        Jacob also married Rachel (Number 123) the daughter of Laban in Paddan Aram, Aramea. She was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea and died near Bethlehem. Jacob and Rachel had the following children:
        +136 i. Joseph.
        +137 ii. Benjamin.

        Jacob also married Bilhah and they had the following sons:
        +138 i. Dan.
        +139 ii. Naphtali.

        Jacob also married Zilpah and they had the following sons:
        +140 i. Gad.
        +141 ii. Asher.

        23RD GENERATION
        129. Reuben was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea and died in Egypt. He had the following children, all born in Canaan and all died in Goshen, Egypt:
        152 i. Hanoch.
        153 ii. Pallu.
        154 iii. Hezron.
        155 iv. Carmi.

        130. Simeon was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea. He died in Goshen, Egypt. He had the following children, all born in Canaan and died in Goshen, Egypt:
        156 i. Jemuel.
        157 ii. Jamin.
        158 iii. Ohad.
        159 iv. Jakin.
        160 v. Zohar.
        161 vi. Shaul.

        131. Levi was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea and died in Goshen, Egypt at the age of 137 years. He had the following children who were born in Canaan and died in Egypt.
        162 i. Gershon.
        163 ii. Kohath. He died at the age of 133 years.
        164 iii. Merari.

        132. Judah was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea and died in Egypt. He had the following children:
        165 i. Er was born in Kezib, Canaan. He died in Kezib, Canaan.
        166 ii. Onan was born in Kezib, Canaan. He died in Kezib, Canaan.
        167 iii. Shelah was born in Kezib, Canaan. He died in Goshen, Egypt.

        Judah had twin sons by Tamar who was born in Canaan. There sons were:
        +168 i. Perez.
        169 ii. Zerah was born in Enaim, Canaan. He died in Goshen, Egypt.

        133. Issachar was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea and died in Egypt. He had the following children, all of whom were born in Canaan and died in Goshen, Egypt:
        170 i. Tola.
        171 ii. Puaht.
        172 iii. Jashub.
        173 iv. Shimron.

        134. Zebulum was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea and died in Egypt. He had the following children, all born in Canaan and died in Goshen, Egypt:
        174 i. Sered.
        175 ii. Elon.
        176 iii. Jahleel.

        136. Joseph was born in 2200 in Paddan Aram, Aramea. He lived to the age of 110 years and died in Egypt in 2310 and was embalmed there. His body were taken to Shechem after the entrance into the Promised Land and buried there. (Joshua 24.32) He was married to Asenath the daughter of Potiphera who was born in Egypt. She died in Egypt. Joseph and Asenath had the following sons who were born and died in Egypt:
        177 i. Manasseh.
        178 ii. Ephraim.

        137. Benjamin was born near Bethlehem. He died in Egypt. He had the following children, all of whom were born in Canaan and died in Goshen, Egypt:
        179 i. Bela.
        180 ii. Beker.
        181 iii. Asnbel.
        182 iv. Gera.
        183 v. Naaman.
        184 vi. Ehi.
        185 vii. Rosht.
        186 viii. Muppim.
        187 ix. Huppim.
        188 x. Ard.

        138. Dan was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea. He died in Egypt. He had the following children:
        189 i. Hushim was born in Canaan. He died in Goshen, Egypt.

        139. Naphtali was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea. He died in Egypt. He had the following children, all his sons were born in Canaan and died in Goshen, Egypt:
        190 i. Jahziel.
        191 ii. Guni.
        192 iii. Jezer.
        193 iv. Shillem.

        140. Gad was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea. He died in Egypt. He had the following children, who were born in Canaan and died in Goshen, Egypt:
        194 i. Zephon .
        195 ii. Haggi.
        196 iii. Shuni.
        197 iv. Ezbon.
        198 v. Eri.
        199 vi. Arodi.
        200 vii. Areli.

        141. Asher was born in Paddan Aram, Aramea. He died in Goshen, Egypt. He had the following children who were born in Canaan and died in Goshen, Egypt:
        201 i. Imnah.
        202 ii. Ishvah.
        203 iii. Ishvi.
        204 iv. Beriah.
        205 v. Serah (a daughter).

        24TH GENERATION.
        168. Perez was born in Enaim, Canaan. He died in Goshen, Egypt. He had the following children:
        +206 i. Hezron.
        207 ii. Hamul was born in Canaan. He died in Goshen, Egypt.

        25TH GENERATION
        206. Hezron was born in Canaan. He died in Goshen, Egypt. He had the following son:
        +210 i. Ram.

        26TH GENERATION.
        210. Ram was born in Egypt. He died in Egypt. He had the following son:
        +211 i. Nahshon.

        27TH GENERATION.
        211. Nahshon was born in Egypt. He died in the Wilderness of Paran. He was the prince of the tribe of Judah during the journey through the wilderness. He had the following son:
        +212 i. Salmon.

        28TH GENERATION.
        212. Salmon was born in in the Wilderness and died in Bethlehem. He was married to Rahab who was born in Jericho. She died in Bethlehem. She saved the three spies of Israel who entered Jericho and as a result she and her family were saved from the destruction of Jericho. Salmon and Rahab had the following son:
        +213 i. Boaz.

        29TH GENERATION
        213. Boaz was born in Bethlehem and died in Bethlehem. He was married to Ruth in Bethlehem. She was born in Moab and died in Bethlehem. She was a widow who moved from Moab to Bethelehm with Naomi her mother-in-law. Boaz and Ruth had the following son:
        +214 i. Obed.

        30TH GENERATION
        214. Obed was born in Bethlehem and died in Bethlehem. He had the following son:
        +215 i. Jesse.

        31ST GENERATION
        215. Jesse was born in Bethlehem and probably died there. He had the following children all born in Bethlehem:
        216 i. Eliab.
        217 ii. Abinadab.
        218 iii. Shimea.
        219 iv. Nethanel.
        220 v. Raddai.
        221 vi. Ozem.
        +222 vii. David.
        +223 viii. Zeruiah a daughter.
        +224 ix. Abigail a daughter.

        31ST GENERATION
        215. Jesse was born in Bethlehem and probably died there. He had the following children all born in Bethlehem:
        216 i. Eliab .
        217 ii. Abinadab.
        218 iii. Shimea .
        219 iv. Nethanel.
        220 v. Raddai .
        221 vi. Ozem.
        +222 vii. David.
        +223 viii. Zeruiah a daughter.
        +224 ix. Abigail a daughter.

        32ND GENERATION
        222. David was born in Bethlehem in 2945 and died in Jerusalem in 3016 at the age of 70 or 71. He was 30 years old when he began king of Judah and reigned for seven and one half years in Hebron. Then he became king of all Israel and reigned for 33 more years. He was a good king, an excellent organizer, a master musician and writer of many hymns. His one failure, the affair with Bathsheba, was a bad influence on his children who later caused him considerable trouble and heartache.

        David first married Michal the daughter of Saul, King of Israel. They had no children.

        David also married Ahinoam who was born in Jezreel. She died in Jerusalem. David and Ahinoam had the following son:
        225 i. Amnon, David’s first born son, was born in Hebron. He died in Baal Hazor. He was murdered on Absalom’s orders.

        David also married Abigail the widow of Nabal. She was born in Carmel and died in Jerusalem. David and Abigail had the following son:
        226 i. Daniel was born in Hebron. At first his name was Kileab but later it was changed to Daniel. No record is given of his later life.

        David also married Maacah daughter of Talmai the King of Geshur. She was born in Geshur and died in Jerusalem. David and Maacah had the following children:
        +227 i. Absalom.
        228 ii. Tamar.

        David also married Haggith and had the following son:
        229 i. Adonijah was born in Hebron. He died in Jerusalem. He was executed by the order of Solomon.

        David also married Abital and had the following son.
        230 i. Shephatiah was born in Hebron.

        David also married Eglah and had the following son:
        231 i. Ithream was born in Hebron.

        David also married Bathsheba the widow of Uriah the Hittite. She was the daughter of Eliam and the grand daughter of Ahithophel one of David’s counselers who took part in the rebellion of Absalom. Bathsheba came from Gilon and died in Jerusalem. David and Bathsheba had the following sons all born in Jerusalem:
        232 i. Shammua.
        233 ii. Shobab.
        +234 iii. Nathan.
        +235 iv. Solomon.

        223. Zeruiah, a sister of David, was born in Bethlehem. She had the following sons:
        236 i. Abishai one of David’s army officers.
        237 ii. Joab, commander of David’s army. He murdered Abner, killed Absalom against David’s wishes, and he killed his cousin Amasa. He was executed by orders from Solomon and died in Jerusalem.
        238 iii. Asahel probably born in Bethlehem. He died in battle, killed by Abner.

        224. Abigail, a sister of David, was born in Bethlehem. She was married to Jether the Ishmaelite. They had the following son:
        239 i. Amasa, David’s nephew. He joined in Absalom’s rebellion but returned to David who made him the commander of his army. He was killed by his cousin Joab.

        33RD GENERATION
        227. Absalom was born in Hebron. He died in Ephraim. His mother was the daughter of the king of Gesher. He had his servants kill his halfbrother Amnon. Later he rebelled against his father and tried to take the kingdom by force but he died in a battle with the forces of King David. Absalom had three sons who did not survive him and a daughter named Tamer. He also had a sister named Tamer. Another daughter is mentioned, named Maacah. Maacah and Tamor may be the same person who at first was called Tamer, after his sister, and later Maacah, after his mother.
        240 i. Maacah. She married her cousin Rehoboam.

        234. Nathan the son of David and Bathsheba was born in Jerusalem. The decedents of Nathan are listed in the genealogy used by Luke in his life of Jesus. He had the following son:
        +241 i. Mattatha.

        235. Solomon was born in 2992 and died in Jerusalem in 3056 at the age of 64. He was buried in the City of David. He reigned as King of Israel in Jerusalem for 40 years. He began as a wise king who built the temple, one of the marvels of the world. He also built many other buildings, gardens, enlarged and fortified a number of cities, and he had a large army. He had many wives who turned him away from God. He married Naamah who was born in Ammon. She died in Jerusalem. Solomon and Naamah had the following son:
        +242 i. Rehoboam.

        34TH GENERATION
        241. Mattatha. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
        +244 i. Menna.

        242. Rehoboam was born in Jerusalem in 3014 and died there in 3072 at the age of 58. Inflation and taxes were a burden on the nation when he began to reign. Because he followed bad advice the kingdom split into two parts and he reigned only over Judah the southern part of Israel. He was 41 years old when he became king and reigned for 17 years in Jerusalem. During his reign, Shishak, the king of Egypt, attacked Jerusalem and took much booty. He married his cousin Maacah (Number 240) daughter of his uncle Absalom. (He had eighteen wives, sixty concubines, twenty eight sons, and sixty daughters. His favorite wife was Maacah.)
        +243 i. Abijah.

        35TH GENERATION
        243. Abijah was born in Jerusalem. He reigned for only 3 years in Jerusalem and died there in 3074. During his reign he was in a battle with Israel, the northern kingdom, and was outnumbered. He would nave lost but the army called for help from God and they were victorious because they relied on the Lord, the God of their fathers. He had a number of wives, sons, and daughters but Asa followed him as king.
        +245 i. Asa.

        244. Menna. Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
        +246 i. Melea.

        36TH GENERATION
        245. Asa was born in Jerusalem and died there. He raigned for 41 years in Jerusalem. He was a righteous ruler removing the foreign alters and idols. During his time a very large army from Cush attacked Judah so Asa called upon God for help and was victorious. The men of Judah carried off a large amount of plunder. He married Azubah and had the following son.
        +247 i. Jehoshaphat.

        246. Melea Of Nathan’s line had the following son:
        +248 i. Eliakim.

        37TH GENERATION
        247. Jehoshaphat was born in Jerusalem and died there. He was 35 years old when he became king and reigned for 25 years in Jerusalem. He was a good king sending priests throughout the land to teach the people the Law of God. He made one serious mistake in making an alliance with the kings of Israel who were wicked rulers. He had seven sons of whom Jehoram was the firstborn who became king at his death.
        +249 i. Jehoram.

        248. Eliakim. Of Nathan’