The reality of caste system – 2

The-reality-of-caste-system-–-2--

….continued from http://agniveer.com/5277/the-reality-of-caste-system/

Simple Lessons on Caste System

1. Caste system is a bogus concept having no Vedic basis whatsoever

Refer http://agniveer.com/series/caste-system-3/ and specially the article http://agniveer.com/5276/vedas-caste-disrcimination/

 

2. All humans have all 4 castes!

Every human has all 4 qualities – Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra – within him and for simplicity sake we can tag him with his predominant profession. However this remains a gross approximation which loses its relevance even more in current era and social system. Yajurveda 32.16 specifically prays that MY Brahmin and MY Kshatriya qualities be worthwhile! Refer article http://agniveer.com/5276/vedas-caste-discrimination/ for details.

 

3. There is no way to decide if so-called upper castes are actually upper, and lower-castes actually lower throughout last several thousand generations and more. 

All this upper-caste and lower-caste fantasy stories are based on self-assessment and evidence of hardly a few generations. We also see that the present caste system provides an incentive for crooks to somehow attain false certificates of upper caste and fool rest of the population. Also there is no incentive for any fake upper caste to actually admit that he or she belongs to a family of Chandals because that would deprive them of their special rights and status. So in all probability, caste system would imply rule of the crooks and torture of the honest. Thus it is more likely that the honest ones now known as lower-castes are the real upper castes being duped by real low-castes! After all caste system basically means an incentive to cheat!

 

Traits may be inherited due to environment BUT….

4. At best we can say that certain traits run predominantly in certain families due to the environment that a newborn receives. So many professions run through generations. There is nothing wrong in it. But that does not mean that son of a doctor becomes a doctor merely by taking birth. He has to grow up, give exam and qualify for MBBS to use the Dr salutation. Same is true for every profession or Varna.

 

5. Further this does not also mean that I cannot be a doctor simply because my father was a laborer. Thankfully this is not the case. Or else the world would have been worse than Hell. After all, almost all legends who shaped the world through knowledge, inventions, discoveries and leadership were mutants who went completely against family traditions.

 

Caste system ruined us

6. Ever since, India started taking caste system seriously, we degraded from lighthouse of world to one of the largest debtors and beggars of the world. And western world could progress so much despite so many lacunae because they allowed equal rights to dignity to all humans regardless of birth. At height of caste-system, we saw ourselves being raped and butchered for centuries and finally partitioned in our own ancient homeland.

It is only in recent years, after caste system has dwindled significantly, that we witness some respite. Whatever nuisance remains is because of caste-system refusing to go due to its politicization. And politicization thrives because we refuse to proactively trash all those rituals, texts, customs that are based on birth-based caste system.

 

Negative contribution of casteist mind

7. If I ask you to provide any significant contribution of any casteist mind in last 1000 years, you would have to blame utter lack of it all on crazy conspiracy theories. But the hard fact is that apart from hollow superstitious philosophies and rituals, nothing useful was ever contributed by all the pundits of Varanasi and all holy shrines put together who had access to tremendous wealth and resources to do anything worthwhile.(refer the wealth being discovered from Padmanabhan temple for example. I wonder if they would have utilized this wealth to unite people for fighting away the invaders and establishing meritocracy).

The so-called Mlecchas like Einstein, Newton, Faraday and hundred of other path-breakers of west were more fertile minds than the ‘divinely’ inspired birth, knowledge and special gifts of Shri Hari on these birth-based pundits. The only difference was that in last 300 years, west rejected the crap of Biblical superstitions, increasingly accorded equal rights to all sections of societies. So we can conclude that a non-casteist mind of a Mleccha (considered worse than even Shudras) is thousand times more brilliant than the most ‘divine’ casteist mind.

So those who claim that upper-castes have better talents should provide evidence on what great research have their better talents produced in last 300 years to take their claims seriously?

Giving names of a few scientists like Raman or Chandrashekhar would be foolish. Because they achieved whatever they could only when they adopted studies of the Mlecchas. Their knowledge came from Mlecchas and even their outputs were acknowledged by Mlecchas alone.

Instead, one should showcase examples from centers of casteist learnings – Kashi, Kanchi, Tirupati etc – on what great breakthrough research they could bring from the classified knowledge they had owing to their superior birth? Apart from degrading a great scientific tradition to stories of cheap gimmicks and dakshina, the contribution has been meagre from these great ‘universities’.

And a non-casteist Mleccha warrior is more effective than a far more powerful and brave casteist Kshatriya. That is why despite being touted as having the bravest Rajputs, we were enslaved for centuries by even the slaves of slaves! (Refer the Slave dynasty!) We were marrying our daughters to psychopaths like Akbar despite the heroic valor! We had our Kashi Vishwanath taking recluse in a well despite power of Vedic scholars and brave divinely gifted warriors! And Ghazni raping women in premises of Somnath Temple, thanks to our birth-based caste system that allowed only specific families to be trained in warfare and then remain Hindu only if they do not get touched by Mlecchas!

And far less talented Englishmen could rule not only us but half of the globe simply because they rejected artificial discrimination within their own society! 

 

8. But yes, India has been excellent producers of slaves and Shudras for ages. Barring few rebels, as a society, despite our tall claims of being Brahmin or Kshatriya or Vaishya, we have been licking the boots of our rulers, whosoever came to rule us. We feel pride in serving our Aakaas. Mughal armies were predominantly consisting of Rajput warriors and generals. When Haldi Ghati battle happened, it were Rajputs trying to defeat the brave Pratap! Most of the battles Shivaji fought was against so-called Rajputs and Marathas who were bootlicking the Sultanates!

So those who claim to be upper-castes and defend birth-based caste-system have in practice been not better than Shudras or Slaves as per their deeds! No doubt they had thus all the more reasons to defend their fake upper-castes!

 

Casteists caused decline of Hinduism

9. It were the great Pundits who closed doors of entry of forced converts back to Hinduism and thus caused the slavery and eventual partition of India. Even today, Hinduism is the only religion that has no mechanism to accept people into it except by birth. Of course, if you pay some bucks at Varanasi these days, they do convert and marry you as per Hindu rituals so that you can take photographs. Even this started after the Arya Samaj Shuddi movement which was met with stiff opposition by fake Brahmins in last century and quarter. In our definition, such people were worse than Shudras.

Many so-called fake Brahmins (fake because they cannot produce DNA records of their Brahminism) would claim that non-Hindus are allowed to be taken back to Hinduism but only as Shudras and not Brahmins or Kshatriyas! What a stupidity based on selfish power politics! A Stephen Knapp who has contributed more to the cause of Hinduism than all the pundits of Kashi put together is still disallowed from entering Jagannath Temple becuase he was not a born Brahmin! He will have to do penance in this birth and take next birth as Brahmin to get this right!

Do we need any external enemies to destroy our destiny?

We have been practicing this stupidity for ages and still do not understand. I can go to a mosque and express my desire to be a Muslim. They will then make all arrangements and make me one quickly. Church will even pay me bucks to become a Christian. But if someone goes to a temple to embrace the culture of their forefathers, first the pujari will look at him as if he has heard a queer joke. Then he would call some pundit. Depending on the location of temple, even his entry may be barred. For example, only Brahmins can enter into interiors of Kashi Vishwanath temple! Then he would be provided a list of penances so that he can become a Shudra. The penances, suggested by likes of revered Karpatriji Maharaj have included eating cow dung for several days! Other sects like ISKCON may make things easier because they are among few sects who felt importance of bringing our lost brothers back.

But then they would be called frauds by other sects. Still they cannot enter a Kanchipuram or Vishwanath or Jagannath or Dwarka temple. They cannot marry a so-called high-caste Hindu. They cannot read and teach Vedas. Even ISKCON would try to play safe and recommend that they only study Geeta and Bhagvat Puran etc.

Except Arya Samaj, no one would dare to make a Pandit teaching Vedas from a Maulana. And they are considered deviant since last 125 years. And now even Arya Samaj has become a kitty party ignoring its prime duty of destroying the caste system! They are busy conducting marriage of eloped couples and earning Dakshinas!

So would some Christian or Muslim be a fool to accept Hinduism at such cost to his or her dignity?

 

10. I am not blaming any individual but the mindset. The foolish caste system and the mindset that supports it is the greatest cause for all the problems of today. If we became slaves, it was because of this. If we were raped and butchered, it was because of this. If we are facing terrorism, it is because of this. And still we refuse to jettison it proactively. We know it has no basis, no foundation, and no way to verify it, but still we continue to feed the snake that has been killing our kins for centuries.

 

Casteists caused the Partition of India

11. Many Indians rue the partition and so-called hardline Muslim problem. But few know that Jinnah’s grandfather was a Hindu who was forced to convert due to stupid reasons. Iqbal was from family of Brahmins not even two generations ago! Our stupid caste system would make someone a Mleccha even if we ate with a ‘Mleccha’ and there was never a way back to home.

Later when legends like Swami Dayanand and Shradhanand started Shuddhi movement, and were supported by visionaries like Savarkar, the opportunistic agents of Dharma relented but allowed extremely impractical access to Hinduism as lower castes.

So the entire Muslim or Christian population of subcontinent today is only result of our own crime of caste-system that would make one outcaste at flimsiest of reason. Instead of condemning other religions and their faith, we should ask ourselves: “What do we have to offer them to bring them back with dignity?”. “What right we have to condemn them when we defend our own irrational fake scriptures that justify caste system and gender discrimination?”

 

Casteists should look at their own crimes first

Let us be honest with ourselves. Agniveer critically analyzes history of Islam or Quran or Bible, it does so as a scientist and not with hatred. It focuses on concepts and not people. In same vein it also has the guts to say that it throws into dustbin and puts fire to all those rubbish texts which support in any manner disgraceful blots like casteism and gender discrimination. Agniveer does not care about how emotional we may be to such a text or ritual or way of worship. It would still stand for getting rid of lices that suck our blood.

Till we can come up with this honesty, any debate on comparative religions would be a shameless veil on our own heinous crimes.

 

To Hell with Casteism

12. And for so-called lower castes, there was never a mechanism to become upper-caste again. We said ‘To Hell with merit’ and destiny said ‘To Hell with Hindus’!

So Agniveer now appeals to all to say ‘To Hell with those who say ‘To Hell with merit”.

…..to be continued at http://agniveer.com/5415/the-reality-of-caste-system-3/

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  1. says

    i will like to mention about 1921 moplah riots of kerla when muslims goons attacked hindus. in these riots thousands of hindus were killed, thousands were converted to islam forcibly,hundreds of hindu women were raped, and hundred of hindu temples were demolished. some one asked at many places hindus were outnumbered than muslims then why they were not able to defend themselves. reason was castism. the upper caste rich hindus had prohibited lower caste poor hindus to enter their streets while upper caste rich hindus never entered lower caste poor hindus. thus they were not united and fell as an easy prey to muslims. if they had united they would have reisisted muslims from looting, raping, killing and forcible conversion.

    • Am, Slave of Vedas says

      ARYA SAMARPAN GEET
      Hey Ishwar kya tera diya Sundar Varna hai
      Hiro ke kimat ko jhuka de
      Aisa yeh dharma hai

      Agar Brahman Chunu toh Vedo ki mahima
      Vishwa mein faila du
      Kshatriya Chunu toh apno ka jivan
      apne prana dekar bhi raksha karu
      Vaishya Chunu toh Priyejano ke daridrata ko door karke
      unnati ko aasman ki aur bada du
      Phir agar yehi haath apne hi dharm ka vinaash kare
      Yeh rom-rom Shudratva ko grahan kare
      Mera hi samaj Mujhe hi barhishkar kare
      Toh kya apne kartavya ko chor
      Dasyuvo ki Sharan lu ?
      Are wo bhakt hi kya
      Jo kaato ke dar se bhakti ko hi chor de
      Apne Niyamo ka ullanghan karne se bhala
      apna maatha kaat
      Apne prabhu ke hawaale karu

      Manushya wo nahi jo dosh kare aur dand se bhage
      Lekin wo hain jo waapas satya ki raah le

      Thik tab ho , jab apne galti ka ehsaas karke
      Niyam ke badhe huye karma ko
      astra ki tarah uthaaoo
      Aur apne maan-sammaan aur dvijatvo ko waapas grahan karu
      O Maha-aatma(Super soul .i.e. father of all souls) ekbaar suno mere samarpan ko
      Aandhi aaye , toofan aaye , Chahe Mrityu bhi Aaye
      Tujhe kabhi na Choru
      Hey Ishwar,
      MEIN TERA ARYA HU
      MEIN TERA ARYA HU
      MEIN TERA ARYA HU

  2. says

    the second incidnet which i will like to mention is of maratha war of panipat with ahmed shah abdali in 1761. at one point of war marathas were going to win and abdali was going to loose. incidently abdali went to see what marathas were doing in night. he saw that they were making food seperately like brahmin kitchen, khshatriya kitchen, vaishya kitchen and shudra kitchen. he asked is companion why they have seperate kitchen. he replied even though they fights together in day while they follows strictly castism after war .he said that means they are not united in night. abdali ordered his forces to attack in night as maraths were not united at that time. and he ruined the hindu forces by attack. tis lead to loss of war by marathas. reslu hindu kingdom was replaced by british rule in our country.

  3. Apolloreach says

    A bold article and today it is a fact that even if someone wanted to come back into the Dharmic fold, they are made to run from pillar to post. While I may have my differences with both ISKCON and Arya Samaj, I have to compliment both these organizations that give an easy way for people to revert to the Dharmic faith without performing gymnastics.

  4. says

    दलित मसीहा – मास्टर आत्माराम अमृतसरी.

    http://agniveerfans.wordpress.com/2011/08/18/dalit-prophet/

    फिल्म आरक्षण आज कल अपने विषय को लेकर कम बल्कि दलित स्वर्ण राजनीती को लेकर अधिक सुर्ख़ियों में हैं. दलित नेता इसे दलितों के अधिकार से खिलवार समझ रहे थे जबकि स्वर्णो की राजनीती करने वाले इसे स्वर्णो के हितों से खिलवार समझ रहे थे. सच्चाई जबकि अलग थी की एक स्वर्ण जाती का प्रिंसिपल प्रभाकर सभी गरीब बच्चों को चाहे वो स्वर्ण हो या दलित हो को पढने के सामान अवसर देकर उन्हें जीवन में आगे बढने का उच्च अवसर देना चाहता था जिससे की वे आगे बढ सके और यही शिक्षा का मूल अभिप्राय हैं.फिल्म खत्म होते होते सभी दर्शको के मन में यह विचार अवश्य आया की काश हमारे समाज में अमिताभ बच्चन द्वारा निभाए गए प्रिंसिपल प्रभाकर के समान नागरिक होते जिनके विचार से मनुष्य में केवल एक ही जाति हैं वो हैं मानव जाति.कोई दलित या स्वर्ण का झगड़ा ही नहीं हैं.

    २० वि शताब्दी के आरंभ में हमारे देश में न केवल आज़ादी के लिए संघर्ष हुआ अपितु सामाजिक उद्धार के लिए भी बड़े-बड़े आन्दोलन हुए.इन सभी सामाजिक अन्दोलोनो में एक था शिक्षा का समान अधिकार.

    स्वामी दयानंद द्वारा सत्यार्थ प्रकाश में स्पष्ट कहाँ गया की राजा के पुत्र से लेकर एक गरीब व्यक्ति का बालक तक नगर से बाहर गुरुकुल में समान भोजन और अन्य सुविधायों के साथ उचित शिक्षा प्राप्त करे एवं उसका वर्ण उसकी शिक्षा प्राप्त करने के पश्चात ही निर्धारित हो और जो अपनी संतान को शिक्षा के लिए न भेजे उसे राजदंड दिया जाये. इस प्रकार एक शुद्र से लेकर एक ब्राह्मन तक के बालक को समान परिस्थियों में उचित शिक्षा दिलवाना और उसे समाज का एक जिम्मेदार नागरिक बनाना शिक्षा का मूल उद्देश्य था.

    स्वामी दयानंद के क्रांतिकारी विचारों से प्रेरणा पाकर बरोदा नरेश शयाजी राव गायकवाड ने अपने राज्य में दलितों के उद्धार का निश्चय किया. आर्यसमाज के स्वामी नित्यानंद जब बरोदा में प्रचार करने के लिए पधारे तो महाराज ने अपनी इच्छा स्वामी जो को बताई की मुझे किसी ऐसे व्यक्ति की आवश्यकता हैं जो इस कार्य को कर सके. पंडित गुरुदत विद्यार्थी जो स्वामी दयानंद के निधन के पश्चात नास्तिक से आस्तिक बन गए थे से प्रेरणा पाकर नये नये B.A.बने आत्माराम अमृतसरी ने अंग्रेजी सरकार की नौकरी न करके स्वतंत्र रूप से कार्य करने का निश्चय किया.स्वामी नित्यानंद के निर्देश…

  5. says

    स्वामी नित्यानंद के निर्देश पर अध्यापक की नौकरी छोड़ कर उन्होंने बरोदा जाकर दलित विद्यार्थियों को शिक्षा देने का निश्चय किया. एक पक्की सरकारी नौकरी को छोड़कर गुजरात के गाँव गाँव में दलितों के उद्धार के लिए धुल खाने का निर्णय स्वामी दयानंद के भक्त ही ले सकते हैं और कोई नहीं.

    आत्माराम जी बरोदा नरेश से मिले तो उनको दलित पाठशालाओं को खोलने विचार महाराज ने बताया और उन्हें इन पाठशालाओं का अधीक्षक बना दिया गया. मास्टर जी स्थान तलाशने निकल पड़े. जैसे ही मास्टर आत्माराम जी किसी भी स्थान को पसंद करते तो दलित पाठशाला का नाम सुनकर कोई भी किराये के लिए उसे नहीं देता. अंत में मास्टर जी को एक भूत बंगला मिला उस स्थान पर पाठशाला स्थापित कर दी गयी. गायकवाड महाराज ने कुछ समय के बाद अपने अधिकारी श्री शिंदे को भेजकर पाठशाला का हाल चाल पता कराया. शिंदे जी ने आकार कहाँ महाराज ऐसा दृश्य देख कर आ रहा हु जिसकी कोई कल्पना भी नहीं कर सकता. दलित में भी अति निम्न समझने वाली जाति के लड़के वेद मंत्रो से ईश्वर की स्तुति कर रहे थे और दलित लड़कियां भोजन पका रही थी जिसे सभी ग्रहण करते थे. सुनकर महाराज को संतोष हुआ. पर यह कार्य ऐसे ही नहीं हो गया. मास्टर जी स्वयं अपने परिवार के साथ किराये पर रहते थे, जैसे ही मकान मालिक को पता चलता की वे दलितों के उत्थान में लगे हुए हैं वे उन्हें खरी खोटी सुनाते और मकान खाली करा लेते. इस प्रकार मास्टर जी अत्यंत कष्ट सहने रहे पर अपने मिशन को नहीं छोड़ा. महाराज के प्रेरणा से मास्टर जी ने बरोदा राज्य में ४०० के करीब पाठशालाओं की स्थापना कारी जिसमे २०,००० के करीब दलित बच्चे शिक्षा ग्रहण करते थे. महाराज ने प्रसन होकर मास्टर जी के सम्पूर्ण राज्य की शिक्षा व्यस्था का इंस्पेक्टर बना दिया. मास्टर जी जब भी स्कूलों के दौरों पर जाते तो स्वर्ण जाति के लोग उनका तिरस्कार करने में कोई कसर नहीं छोड़ते पर मास्टर जी चुप चाप अपने कार्य में लगे रहे. सम्पुर्ण गुजरात में मास्टर आत्माराम जी ने न जाने कितने दलितों के जीवन का उद्धार किया होगा इसका वर्णन करना मुश्किल हैं.अपने बम्बई प्रवास के दौरान मास्टर जी को दलित महार जाति का B.A. पड़ा हुआ युवक मिला जो एक पेड़ के नीचे अपने पिता की असमय मृत्यु से परेशान बैठा था. उसे पढने के लियें २५ रूपए मासिक की छात्रवृति गायकवाड महाराज से मिली थी जिससे वो B .A . कर सका था. मास्टर जी उसकी क़ाबलियत को समझकर…

  6. says

    मास्टर जी उसकी क़ाबलियत को समझकर उसे अपने साथ ले आये. कुछ समय पश्चात उसने मास्टर जी को अपनी आगे पढने की इच्छा बताई. मास्टर जी ने उन्हें गायकवाड महाराज के बम्बई प्रवास के दौरान मिलने का आश्वासन दिया. महाराज ने १० मेघावी दलित छात्रों को विदेश जाकर पढने के लियें छात्रवृति देने की घोषणा करी थी.उस दलित युवक को छात्रवृति प्रदान करी गयी जिससे वे अमरीका जाकर आगे की पढाई पूरी कर सके. अमरीका से आकर उन्हें बरोदा राज्य की १० वर्ष तक सेवा करने का कार्य करना था इसलिए उन्होंने नौकरी आरंभ कर दी. पर स्वर्णो द्वारा ऑफिस में अलग से पानी रखने, फाइल को दूर से पटक कर टेबल पर डालने से उनका मन खट्टा हो गया. वे आत्माराम जी से इस नौकरी से मुक्त करवाने के लियें मिले. आत्माराम जी के कहने पर गायकवाड महाराज ने उन्हें १० वर्ष के अनुबंध से मुक्त कर दिया. इस बीच आत्माराम जी के कार्य को सुन कर कोहलापुर नरेश साहू जी महाराज ने उन्हें कोहलापुर बुलाकर सम्मानित किया और आर्यसमाज को कोल्हापुर का कॉलेज चलने के लिए प्रदान कर दिया. आत्माराम जी का कोहलापुर नरेश से आत्मीय सम्बन्ध स्थापित हो गया.

    आत्माराम जी के अनुरोध पर उन दलित युवक को कोहलापुर नरेश ने इंग्लैंड जाकर आगे की पढाई करने के लिए छात्रवृति दी जिससे वे phd करके देश वापिस लौटे.उन दलित युवक को अब लोग डॉ अम्बेडकर के नाम से जानते लगे. जो कालांतर में दलित समाज के सबसे लोक प्रिय नेता बने और जिन्होंने दलितों के लिए संघर्ष किया. मौजदा दलित नेता डॉ अम्बेडकर से लेकर पंडिता रमाबाई तक (जिन्होंने पूने में १५००० के करीब विधवाओं को ईसाई मत में सम्मिलित करवा दिया था) उनसे लेकर ज्योतिबा फुले तक (जिन्होंने सत्य शोधक समाज की स्थापना करी और दलितों की शिक्षा के लिए विद्यालय खोले) का तो नाम बड़े सम्मान से लेते हैं पर स्वर्ण जाति में जन्मे और जीवन भर दलितों का जमीनी स्तर पर शिक्षा के माध्यम से उद्धार करने वाले मास्टर आत्माराम जी अमृतसरी का नाम लेना अपराध समझते हैं.सोचिये अगर मास्टर जी के प्रयास से और स्वामी दयानंद की सभी को शिक्षा देने की जन जागृति न होती तो डॉ अम्बेडकर महार जाति के और दलित युवकों की तरह एक साधारण से व्यक्ति ही रह जाते.और फिर दलित नेता अपनी राजनैतिक रोटियां किस मंच पर पकाते. आज समाज को आरक्षण से ज्यादा सभी को समान अवसर की जरुरत हैं जिससे देश और जाति का कल्याण हो सके.दलित उत्थान ५००० करोड़…

  7. says

    दलित उत्थान ५००० करोड़ रुपये के थीम पार्क बनाने से नहीं अपितु जो दलित अनपढ़ हैं उन्हें शिक्षा देने से, जो बेरोजगार हैं उन्हें नौकरी देने से, जो बीमार हैं उन्हें चिकित्सा सुविधा देने से होगा.

  8. Kshatriya says

    Wow agniveer.I am a keralite….this is what i have been saying for years….Most conversions are frm backward locality especially on SC/ST colonies….militant converters offers food , shelter or whatever instead of that they will give them there religious education and education to there childrens….We cant blame them because they are poor and vedic spirituality wont solve there poverty….ITS ALL BECAUSE HINDUS DONT LOVE HINDUS….Hinduism have to become organised and support poor hindus…..The temple treasure from kerala Sri Padmanabha temple can be used for that….

    • says

      We have launched a special mission and allocated funds for Kerala for exactly same purpose. Do contact us through Contact page on how we can work together.

      Dhanyavad
      Admin

  9. says

    My dear friend

    the wealth of king belongs to govt, not for only hindus,it belons to all poor people in kerala.
    Agniveer don’t waste his time for spending time with uh happend things.

    • SDC says

      Then, you are utterly wrong here, Shabeer. The wealth belongs to the temple and Lord Padmanabhswamy and not even the king of Travancore. So, it is the property of the residing deity and is to be managed by the temple trust on its behalf. Even if I am to accept your logic, then all the waqf property must also belong to the government and hence the people at large, would you agree with me on this point? Now, I am sure you would like to change your stance or come up with a twisted reply.

    • says

      @ Shabeer
      I think your statement is so biased because if you’d like treat temple fund to be spent for all poor, then why do we have IRF etc. we should send all muslim charity to Government treasury right??!! your statement is so biased and seems bit greedy too.
      I ask muslims a question, would any of you donate your charity money to a temple or church? so biased man really..

  10. Vik says

    The caste system is like a disease which has contaminated us for centuries and every day we see symptoms of this disease which are riots, degradation of hinduism, and opportunities for abrahamic cults to take advantage of this weakness of ours. We suffer from this disease and the cure for this disease is to join Agniveer’s mission to annihilate the caste system. I advise everyone to propagate this golden set of masterpieces to everyone.

  11. says

    I agree Both waqaf board & devasam board belongs to the govt,that means the wealth belongs to the poor people,the wealth not belongs to temple,its belongs to travankoor kings,today kerala govt has responsbity to that wealth,i agree most our kerla leaders says lits used for poor people.

    • SDC says

      Do most of the keralite leaders also agree on the point that the church’s wealth and the waqf property is also to be utilized for the uplift of the poor? Just wanted to know.

        • shravak says

          @shaikh

          —–I agree all the board(hind,muslim,christ) govt must utilise for the welfare of the poor people
          —–

          why its not come naturally from your side always? Why we have to insist you people(chirstians, Muslims) to include church, WAQF board too for the welfare of the poor people? Your prime target is always hindu temples/shrines. This show your biased fanatic mindset.

        • SDC says

          No, man, I am not from Kerala. I am from the North-east, but that is besides the point I was trying to make. You cannot have double standards when framing policies. If the government is really intent on helping the poor, needy masses and wants to use the money of religious institutions, well and good, nothing like it. In a country, where millions cannot even make both ends meet, we can ill afford to have palatial religious structures, which is in fact hypocrisy on our part on not tending to our less privileged fellowmen.

          But while doing so, no particular religious denomination is to be singled out.

  12. says

    Dear friend tamilc

    my last post i explained its not the wealth of temple ,its belongs to raja,he keep the his wealth for all people. I says most of kerla people agreed things,that if we required we can utilise for the poor people,its govt property as a citizen,muslim & Christian has the right.we never accept the money from temple or church,its our part of believe.

    • Indian Agnostic says

      Dear Shabeer

      The money belongs to Lord Padmanabha .It belongs to him and him alone.If you are an idol worshipper lije those devitees , you may ask for some grant by bowing to the Lord ;)

      • says

        ok any human(can u show) in Kerala says like that u?

        mu brothers u don’t know the history of wealth,that way u behaving like that.

        why padmanaba temple authority or new generations of raja says its belongs to them?

        why r they taking from it?

        can any my brother answer my questions?

        i says the truth,it belong to govt,if required it can utlise the poor people of Kerala,what the problem behind it? its not only my opinion ,major of our scholar/politician/activist, (except little rss member) opinion.

        • NaRuTo says

          Hello Shabeer. I have many friends from kerela.

          1. Most of them says that it be distributed to the needy. Some hindu friends only say it should be kept in the temple.

          However, there is a condition : This will be done only after All the wealth of the churches and mosques / xtian and muslim groups is assessed and brought under the control of the govt. Money that pours in from the gulf and the xtian countries into kerela need to be brought to the control of the kerela govt, and let That money be used for the needy instead of religious conversions. ONCE THIS IS DONE, the hindus will be ready for accepting that temple treasure be distributed.

          Majority of politicans are saying this, is it? Maybe Kunjhalikutty of Muslim League also? After all, his wealth must have taken a beating after that sex racket case dragged on for so much time. He is back in power now with full support of the muslims,isnt he? :)

        • Indian Agnostic says

          Dear Shabeer

          You might want to read the apt response by @A Keralite. He confirms that all the wealth as per documented records too, belongs to the temple.

          Now please note the fact India is a secular country and Temple money looting through the Endowment act is itself against the spirit of Secularism.This act was enacted by the British to loot and siphon off temple wealth to britain.

          and finally, your argument will have some logic ONLY iff you say that all the WAQF board cland and CHurch Land along with funds should be taken over by GOvt of India and the money then invested in helping the poor.

          anyways, the bottom line is that if India claims it’s secular – then it;s criminal of part of the govt to loot Hindu temples .

        • Indian Agnostic says

          And the most important point is that you, me and millions of Indian’s pay direct TAX ..what is the Govt doing with that money for the poor? Even the poor pay tax indirectly !

          Incompetence and Corruption cannot be an argument for looting temple treasure.I hope you are aware of the scandals that have hit us as a nation

    • says

      @ Shabeer

      ——my last post i explained its not the wealth of temple ,its belongs to raja,he keep the his wealth for all people.——

      Once you have donated to IRF, it will never be called yours again, so please keep this in mind always.

      —-As a citizen,muslim & Christian has the right—

      Of what? Treasure of Temple? That’s where I feel the Greediness!!

      —-we never accept the money from temple or church,its our part of believe—-

      You are contradicting yourself here, you called its right of a citizen but here you are saying it’s against of your religious belief??!! By the way, if it is against of your religious belief, then why do people propagating to spend the money on all? You are talking against of your belief brother!! Please condemn the fellow Muslim who claims to spend treasure for all?

  13. A keralite says

    Hello all,
    I am from Kerala. Actually before commenting on the temple treasure at Sree Padbhanabha temple, one must first read the authentic records about this treasure. These are the ” mathilakam records which contains the description of all activities happened inside the temple from AD1304. The actual meaning of Mathilakam is ” Inside the wall boundary”. When referring these records we will get the complete details about this treasure and to whom it belongs to. A very high percentage of treasure were given as a donation to the temple by kings, and from nearby places like neppal and Beroda. and the rest were given by foreign people for the purpose of making business here. Hence with 100 % proof it can be concluded that this treasure belongs to the temple and neither govt nor the kings have right in this treasure. There were surveys conducted by different TV channels for knowing the peoples opinion in this regard, and the results were 87% population of kerala believes that this belongs to the temple and is not a public property. I have seen this results yesterday. Also the CM of our state repeatedly states that this treasure belongs to the Sreepadbhanabha and those people who have not donated a 1 rupee coin to the temple doesn’t have the right to say against the temple.

  14. Kshatriya says

    Sabeer…………Sabeer think well before you post……There was another treasury for Trivandrum royal family which was taken away by federal along with the royal palace…..also temple is not controlled by king but its controlled by a trustee……

    AND ALSO DOES THE PEOPLE OF KERALA SO WEALTHIER AT THAT TIME TO PAY THIS TYPE OF JEWELS AND GOLD……Does the poor people paid this as tax????

    Communist think that denigration of hinduism is what secularism>>> i used to vote for them for a long time….But there is a silent change going on the mind set of hindus in kerala……

    Also see what famous historian M G S Narayanan has to say….Golds and jewels where paid from even Nepal kings…..

    Every indian famous temples had this wealth…Tippu Sulthan M.Gori, Mugals british etc looted this……So why did they didnt looted Sri Padmanabha Swami Temple treasure …..if you look the post indepence map Travancore was never conqured by any foreign nations instead it become a slave nation or puppet nation to them….Also Tippu stopped his campaign in malabar….no muslim raiders who invaded through north india could reach Travancore which is the south most tip of india…..

  15. Sameer says

    KERALA TEMPLE’S MONEY WILL BE FOR MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS ONLY ON THAT DATE WHEN KABA IS OPENED FOR NON MUSLIMS AND ITS DONATIONS ARE GIVEN TO HINDUS UNCONDITIONAL. Christians can also claim on Kerala temple’s money only on that day when Hindus can buy land in VATICAN AND VATICAN BANK’S MONEY IS GIVEN TO HINDUS UNCONDITIONALLY THEN ONLY CAN WE HAVE A DEAL (LOL). OTHERWISE THAT MONEY IS ONLY FOR STRENGTHENING OF HINDUISM.

  16. Sameer says

    MYTH OF INDIA’S SECULARISM. India is not a secular country it is a lie spread by politicians and media to fool Hindus. SECULARISM IS ONLY IMPOSED ON HINDU MAJORITY AREAS THIS FACT IS ACCEPTED BY SUPREME COURT. In Muslim and christian majority areas like Kashmir, Nagaland and mizoram Hindus cannot buy land or spread their religion. In secular countries religious quotas are not given but in india it is given. In secular countries state and religion are separate and religion cannot be used for political purposes.

    During SHAH BANU CASE the MUSLIMS OPENLY SAID THAT THEY DO NOT AND CANNOT FOLLOW INDIAN CONSTITUTION’S SECULAR LAWS THEY NEED SEPARATE LAWS FOR MUSLIMS.

    SO WHY THIS MUSLIMS ARE EXPECTING OTHERS TO FOLLOW SECULARISM.

  17. x says

    >>>”Ever since, India started taking caste system seriously, we degraded from lighthouse …”

    any proof to this assertion? viz., relation between caste system and degradation ?

    >>>”And western world could progress so much …”

    how much ?
    what is the ‘progress’ western world have made ?

    >>>”…they allowed equal rights to dignity to all humans regardless of birth”

    Western world did that ? then who killed off the Native Americans, Australians, Nzs, enslaved Africans, Indians, starved Bengalis to death, killed off Vietnamese, Chinese, Koreans, continues to do the same with Iraqis, Afghanis…?

    >>>”At height of caste-system, we saw ourselves being raped and butchered for centuries and finally partitioned in our own ancient homeland.”

    So if somebody rapes and butchers another person, u will talk about the caste-system or otherwise of the victim?

    >>>>”It is only in recent years, after caste system has dwindled significantly, that we witness some respite”

    what respite? dont Indians get killed daily? dont Indians get starved to death, commit suicide, get looted, displaced, daily ?

    >>>”Whatever nuisance remains is because of caste-system refusing to go… ”

    Yeah, outside India, where presumably caste system does not exist, everything is fine?
    May be caste free Pakistan and Bangladesh are ur ideal places.

    >>>”nothing useful was ever contributed by all the pundits of Varanasi and all holy shrines put together …”

    Yeah?
    and u r what, Gawd’s own messenger, giving ur judgement?

    >>>”I wonder if they would have utilized this wealth to unite people for fighting away the invaders and establishing meritocracy”

    Yeah, u will always wonder if people of that time were as mercenary as the ones u see now, whether they cud have been as easily bribed to do some fighting “for the motherland”, u know.

    >>>>”The so-called Mlecchas like Einstein, Newton, Faraday ….”

    Who called them mleccha? cite reference please.

    >>>”west rejected the crap of Biblical…

    • says

      Namaste x

      —-any proof to this assertion? viz., relation between caste system and degradation ?—–

      Whenever you will start thinking yourself as doctor just because you are the son of one, disaster will be around. Didn’t you see when Muslims attacked India, many like you could not understand who are they, are Muslims from God’s mouth or hand or thigh or leg or ….? And while you were thinking so, they slaughtered and enslaved your ancestors. remember?

      ——how much ? what is the ‘progress’ western world have made ?——–

      So much that you need to use THEIR technology to write comment on their backwardness :)

      ——-Western world did that ?——–

      Article talks about the recent times and dominating people of west. Majority of India is still infected by this virus, whereas in west, its not that much now.

      ——–So if somebody rapes and butchers another person, u will talk about the caste-system or otherwise of the victim?——-

      I will punish the butcher but scrutinize also- why and how that person was so weak that he couldn’t retaliate- so that no one becomes victim being weak.

      ———what respite? dont Indians get killed daily? dont Indians get starved to death, commit suicide, get looted, displaced, daily ?——-

      Many of Hindus those could not come out from the mouth of God like you, converted to other religions and are still converting. You have lost half of the people and territory in last 1000 years whose major contributor has been the caste system (its different matter though that the religions to which they convert are even more castists)

      ——May be caste free Pakistan and Bangladesh are ur ideal places.——

      Who told you that Muslims dont believe in caste system?

      ——and u r what, Gawd’s own messenger, giving ur judgement?——–

      Great Pandits of Varansi once pulled the bull cart of some Prince/viceroy to show how they respect their kings :) BTW are you God’s messenger that you know caste system is divine?

  18. x says

    >>>”west rejected the crap of Biblical superstitions”

    They did ?
    I suppose UK PM, US Prez, etc., dont take oath using bible nor assert themslevs as christian. Or they use a diluted version of bible, eh?

    >>>”increasingly accorded equal rights to all sections of societies”

    equal rights on paper. exploitation in practice.

    >>>>”So we can conclude that a non-casteist mind of a Mleccha (considered worse than even Shudras) is thousand times more brilliant than the most ‘divine’ casteist mind.”

    On the basis of ur above delusions?

    >>>”So those who claim that upper-castes have better talents….”

    who is this strawman u hav put up who claims that ?

    >>>>”Raman or Chandrashekhar ….. they adopted studies of the Mlecchas”

    Are u branding everybody under whom Raman or Chandrasekar researched as Mleccha? On what basis, sir ?

    >>>”centers of casteist learnings – Kashi, Kanchi, Tirupati…”

    Kancha Illaiah is similarly adept at generating labels.
    “centers of casteist learning”, like “right wing fundamentalists” are a threat to the nation….
    right wing brigade, RSS, Bajrang Dal…
    call a dog mad and shoot it philosophy.

    They nearly succeeded with that tactic on Shri Jayendra Saraswati of Kanchi.

    did u give guru dakshina to Illaiah/Thapar/A Roy?

    >>>”despite being touted as having the bravest Rajputs”

    Since u r unaware, Rajputs have also been classified as mlecchas, on account of their social interactions with mleccha tribes like Shaka,Huna,Kushanas and later, mughals.

    >>>”We were marrying our daughters to psychopaths like Akbar despite the heroic valor! ”

    Well, the ‘we’ did not include the Kanchi, Tirupati ‘universities’ as u called them.

    >>>”And Ghazni raping women…”

    nice argument, must use it in court.
    Any time a woman is raped, it is because of “birth based caste system that allowed only specific families to be trained in warfare…”
    have they given u nobel prize yet, for such innovative thinking ?

    Kasab and 26/11 are also due…

    • says

      @X

      ——I suppose UK PM, US Prez, etc., dont take oath using bible nor assert themslevs as christian. Or they use a diluted version of bible, eh?——

      They promote scientific research and dont care if science goes against bible. They have denounced Adam Eve theory. So this way, they dont have blind belief in bible which is good.

      ——-equal rights on paper. exploitation in practice.——

      But you and your fellow ones that came from God’s mouth even didn’t do it on paper :(

      ——-who is this strawman u hav put up who claims that ?——

      It is you and many like you who deny Vidya (Vedas) to a “lower caste”

      ———-“centers of casteist learning”, like “right wing fundamentalists” are a threat to the nation….——-

      Can any “lower caste” study Vedas under the guidance of Shankaracharya or Pandit in Kashi?

      ———did u give guru dakshina to Illaiah/Thapar/A Roy?——–

      Stop blaming these morons for every evil. State that every person in the world has right to study Vedas in all the temples of world, in every Peeth of Shankaracharya. Settle this issue forever!

      ——–Since u r unaware, Rajputs have also been classified as mlecchas, on account of their social interactions with mleccha tribes like Shaka,Huna,Kushanas and later, mughals.——

      But why Shaka and Huna etc were called Mlechchhas, this is the question. Is it because they attacked us? And let me know if you consider Rana Pratap also as Mlechchha!

      ——Well, the ‘we’ did not include the Kanchi, Tirupati ‘universities’ as u called them.——

      How? These Kanchi etc never taught Hindus how to fight back and burn the aggressors down to ashes as prescribed in Vedas. They were those who had the responsibility to train fierce fighters for the nation. But they were busy finding ways to destroy Vedas by confining them.

  19. x says

    Kasab and 26/11 are also due to our birth based caste system, ‘m sure u hav concluded wisely.

    >>>”And far less talented Englishmen could rule …”

    Suggest u take a look at http://2ndlook.wordpress.com for answers.

    >>>>”Even today, Hinduism is the only religion that has no mechanism to accept people into it except by birth”

    U r great, for having the intellect to recognize ‘hinduism’ as an authentic ‘religion’.
    Vedas surely tells u how to accept people into hinduism, right? Sri Rama, Sri Krishna, Adi Shankaracharya, all talked about ‘hinduism’ throughout their lives.

    Alas, its only SC of India that relies on a definition that the hindu means an indian who is not muslim, christian, jew or parsee, which definition curiously is very similar to that of a kaffir/heathen!

    But u of course recognize hinduism as authentic religion!

    >>>>”In our definition, such people were worse than Shudras.”

    That sounds as if u dont hav much opinion about sudras. why so sir?

    >>>>”A Stephen Knapp who has contributed more to the cause….”

    Did Knapp tell u he is disappointed?

    There are millions in this country who haven’t been to Jagannath Temple. does that mean they are any less than somebody who has been there?

    Or r u of the belief that gad sits only in Jagannath Temple premises?

    >>>”We have been practicing this stupidity for ages and still do not understand.”

    Its always meaningful to use first person singular when u talk about ur habits.

    >>>>”But if someone goes to a temple to embrace the culture of their forefathers…”

    the culture of ones’ forefathers is placed in temple, to be embraced, is it ?
    didn’t know that. Must visit a temple and embrace somebody(hope she looks good, and doesn’t slap!)

    >>>”So would some Christian or Muslim be a fool to accept Hinduism at such cost to his or her dignity?”

    More appropriate question is, ‘how many more fools r there still who choose to identify with tags such as hindu, muslim, christian, etc., made by…

    • says

      @X

      ——Kasab and 26/11 are also due to our birth based caste system, ‘m sure u hav concluded wisely.——-

      How the hell Indian subcontinent Muslims converted to Islam and couldn’t return back? You have failed to grasp it :(

      —–Suggest u take a look at http://2ndlook.wordpress.com for answers.——

      Give relevant part here

      ——-U r great, for having the intellect to recognize ‘hinduism’ as an authentic ‘religion’.—

      Thanks a lot :)

      ———-Vedas surely tells u how to accept people into hinduism, right?——

      Yes, you have started getting it now ;)

      —– Sri Rama, Sri Krishna, Adi Shankaracharya, all talked about ‘hinduism’ throughout their lives.—–

      Agreed.

      —–That sounds as if u dont hav much opinion about sudras. why so sir?——

      No. It is as if you say S is worse and I say in reply, you are worse than S.

      ——Did Knapp tell u he is disappointed?——-

      Yes, he mailed me last night :) Now?

      ——–There are millions in this country who haven’t been to Jagannath Temple. does that mean they are any less than somebody who has been there?——-

      CAN a Shudra, in your opinion, enter any temple and read Vedas or not?

      ——-Or r u of the belief that gad sits only in Jagannath Temple premises?——-

      One of my “Shudra” friend believes so. He wants to see his God. Now?

      ——–Its always meaningful to use first person singular——–

      (everyone else sorry for selective quoting but this is what this genius has been doing throughout)

      No. please dont do it always. Use it only when you are talking about yourself. There are second and third persons with that you cant use first person singular.

      >>>>”But if someone goes to a temple to embrace the culture of their forefathers…”

      ——-the culture of ones’ forefathers is placed in temple, to be embraced, is it ?——

      Yes. My Muslim friend wants to embrace Hindu Dharma in a temple because his forefathers used to go to that temple, so he is very emotional about it. Any…

      • says

        @X

        ——-the culture of ones’ forefathers is placed in temple, to be embraced, is it ?——

        Yes. My Muslim friend wants to embrace Hindu Dharma in a temple because his forefathers used to go to that temple, so he is very emotional about it. Any solutions?

        ——–didn’t know that.——

        No problem! You are among learned people now. Hope you adapt to the new environment soon :)

        ——–now! Must visit a temple and embrace somebody(hope she looks good, and doesn’t slap!)——–

        A wicked person just mailed me and asked how X’s sister looks and if she slaps if hugged? I warned him not to write this again. But were you serious, what if someone chooses your sister for the same?

  20. x says

    More appropriate question is, ‘how many more fools r there still who choose to identify with tags such as hindu, muslim, christian, etc., made by mlecchas?’

    >>>>”The foolish caste system and the mindset that supports it is the greatest cause for all the problems of today.”

    So tell me, all other places in the world, where caste system does not exist, which means everywhere outside of India, its heaven, is it?

    >>>>”If we became slaves, it was because of this. If we were raped and butchered, it was because of this. If we are facing terrorism, it is because of this.”

    As per ur reasoning, Africans were all casteists, because they were enslaved.
    all those women whoever were raped, were casteist.
    The billions who were killed over the past few centuries all over the world, were casteist!
    All victims of terrorists r casteist!

    u must get urself examined.

    >>>>>”So the entire Muslim or Christian population of subcontinent today is only result of our own crime of caste-system ”

    There is something called stockholm syndrome. Romila Thapar and party do their best to inculcate that in u.
    Apparently u hav been a good student of theirs.

    >>>>”What do we have to offer them to bring them back with dignity?”

    MKGandhi likewise thought that if ‘hindus’ allowed themselves to be killed by muslims, the muslims will feel remose and stop the killings. some logic like urs.

    >>>>”“What right we have to condemn them when we defend our own irrational fake scriptures that justify caste system and gender discrimination?”

    Which ‘fake scripture’ is ur highness talking about ?

    • says

      @x

      ——–More appropriate question is, ‘how many more fools r there still who choose to identify with tags such as hindu, muslim, christian, etc., made by mlecchas?’——-

      No. More important question is that who is this fool who uses Mlechchha language and whose name is a Mlechchha alphabet.

      ———So tell me, all other places in the world, where caste system does not exist, which means everywhere outside of India, its heaven, is it?——–

      Caste system exists everywhere in some form or the other. But YOU need to get rid of YOURS first.

      ——-As per ur reasoning, Africans were all casteists, because they were enslaved.——

      If someone slaps you and you couldn’t retaliate, it is better if you focus on your weaknesses instead of weeping all the time how he slapped you. There had to be something wrong with everyone that got beaten because only weak person can be beaten. Hindus definitely had problems and caste system is one of the major ones.

      ——–MKGandhi likewise thought that if ‘hindus’ allowed themselves to be killed by muslims, the muslims will feel remose and stop the killings. some logic like urs.——–

      And all the Pakistanis and many Indian Muslims think that Hindus and Jews around the world are involved in conspiracy against Muslim Ummah. They believe that they are superior creature of Allah but fail to think that if that be so, how can Kafir Hindus beat them everytime through conspiracies? You seem to share the same logic with such intellectuals.

      ——-Which ‘fake scripture’ is ur highness talking about ?——-

      All those books that support caste system.

  21. x says

    >>>”Didn’t you see when Muslims attacked India, many like you could not understand who are they…And while you were thinking so, they slaughtered and enslaved your ancestors. remember?”

    what else do u hallucinate in ur spare time?

    >>>>”So much that you need to use THEIR technology to write comment on their backwardness”

    do thoughts also come from their ‘technology’?

    >>>”Article talks about the recent times …”

    Occupy Wall Street, Afghan war, Monsanto are all past things, is it ?

    >>>”I will punish the butcher but scrutinize also- why and how that person was so weak that he couldn’t retaliate- so that no one becomes victim being weak.”

    It was all ‘blame the victim’ in the article.

    >>>>”Many of Hindus those could not come out from the mouth of God like you, converted to other religions and are still converting”

    what else do u hallucinate ?

    >>>>”You have lost half of the people and territory in last 1000 years whose major contributor has been the caste system (its different matter though that the religions to which they convert are even more castists)”

    This is what happens when u hallucinate. U go round and round.

    >>>>”They promote scientific research and dont care if science goes against bible.”

    U r their spokesman, is it, advertiser also?

    >>>”you and your fellow ones that came from God’s mouth…”

    Next u will say I came from moon!

    Does this happen to u only when u forget ur medication, or even otherwise too ?

    >>>”Can any “lower caste” study Vedas under the guidance of Shankaracharya or Pandit in Kashi?”

    Mayawati did not express any such desire. nor Meira Kumar/A Raja/ShibuSoren/Madhu Koda/Karunanithi/Kanimozhi/K R Narayanan….
    please produce a “lower caste” person, as u call him/her, who wants to study vedas and is denied.

    Also, plse remember(if u can get over ur hallucinating spells), Shankaracharya or Pandit in Kashi also hav a right to choose whom to teach and not.

    >>>>”State that every person in the world has right to…

  22. x says

    >>>>”State that every person in the world has right to study Vedas in all the temples of world, in every Peeth of Shankaracharya…”

    It will require u to stop hallucinating to understand that every person does not have the capability to understand vedas, even if they may take a fancy to it.
    and parentage has nothing to do with it. it is decided by karma samskara.

    >>>”But why Shaka and Huna etc were called Mlechchhas…”

    because, they gave importance to material acquisitions, instead of dharma.
    as a society did not inculcate importance to pursuit of dharma.

    >>>”These Kanchi etc never taught Hindus how to fight back and burn the aggressors down to ashes as prescribed in Vedas”

    perhaps they understood the meaning of vedas differently from u.
    they perhaps did not hallucinate that vedas had prescription to “burn the aggressors down to ashes”!

    >>>”How the hell Indian subcontinent Muslims converted to Islam and couldn’t return back? You have failed to grasp it ”

    only a person who hallucinates will fail to recognize the brutal coercionary tactics imposed by islaimc rulers towards conversion. return back faces threat of death due to apostasy.

    >>>>”It is as if you say S is worse and I say in reply, you are worse than S.”

    “as if”.
    u really like to live in an “as if” world, dont u ?

    >>>>”CAN a Shudra, in your opinion, enter any temple and read Vedas or not?”

    In the correct definition of sudra(as per bharatiya parampara), a sudra will not have interest, nor ability to comprehend veda.
    the episode between Raikva and Janasruti is educative in this regard.

    >>>>”what if someone chooses your sister for the same?”

    That sir, was sarcasm, directed at the point being made, that u go to temple to ‘embrace’ culture.
    u , in ur hallucinatory world, fails to grasp it, as well as the underlying meaning, that u dont go to temples to ‘embrace’ culture or anybody else.

    >>>”There had to be something wrong with everyone that got beaten …”

    Bharatiya parampara…

    • Vik says

      @X

      Namaste,

      looks like you are gearing up urself to get banned from this site because that is exactly what happens to people who advocate the caste system. You have not answered the question properly, tell us as per your opinion, will you let a shudra enter your temple to read the Vedas? Whether he cannot read or understand will come afterwards, but tell us, will u grant him the green signal to go and touch the Vedas in the first place??? As per Vedas, the answer is yes. A shudra is an illiterate, he has every right like all of us to touch and try to read the Vedas, but if he fails to read them, he will have to work hard and get help and eventually become a learnered person (Brahmin).

      Let me tell you one thing, we have strong hatred for the caste system, and even bitter hatred for people who support or advocate the caste system, so now think of where you stand.

  23. x says

    >>>”There had to be something wrong with everyone that got beaten …”

    Bharatiya parampara traditionally recognized the people doing malpractice as guilty and took appropriate action.

    It is perhaps the deracinated, hallucinating people like u, bereft of dharmik consciousness, who fail to identify the wrong people, fails to take necessary action, indulge in deracinated stockholm syndrome, and allow the evil people to continue their hegemony.

    • says

      @x

      ——-In the correct definition of sudra(as per bharatiya parampara), a sudra will not have interest, nor ability to comprehend veda.——-

      Are you able to judge who is Sudra and who is not? And who are you BTW, B or S?

      You did not answer, if anyone born in Shudra family has interest in Vedas, can he read Vedas? Can he enter all the temples?

    • NaRuTo says

      @ X:
      Throughout this discussion with vajra, I am unable to understand what is your viewpoint. It is as if you are replying just for the sake of countering vajra’s point of view and nothing else. Kindly elucidate whether you believe caste system is by birth and why you believe so first.

          • y says

            is mr ‘agniveer’ so insecure and weak, that he can’t take criticism of his views?

            is this the person who claims to unleash giant within…?

        • says

          Dear XX or Y or whatever,

          Please note that we have a zero-tolerance policy for casteism. In this regards decision of moderators is final. You are supposed to comment only if you completely agree to Comment Policy whose link is provided before and after the comment box. You are free to use other resources on web to vent your casteist views or anything else that is not approved by us or criticize us. But we don’t allow casteism here. You should respect the code of ethics by using the site and its features only if you agree with our policies.

          • says

            Veda

            ——–not even the right to speak on behalf of veda/vedic rishis——

            1. Where Agniveer claimed that they write on behalf of Vedas or Rishis?
            2. And you dont have right to speak against Agniveer.
            3. You dont have right to speak on behalf of all those who came out from God’s mouth.
            4. And you are no one to decide what Agniveer should do. They started this forum. They spend money on it. Who are you to dictate them what they should do and what they should not do?

  24. Truth Seeker says

    @Y/Mawali/
    ______is mr ‘agniveer’ so insecure and weak______
    Off course, he feels insecurity & want to protect his motherland to be like Pakistan & Afganistan & Irak etc.
    ______is this the person who claims to unleash giant within______
    Probably, Not the giant like Modern Mohamad who did sex with his daughter and women of his mother age. & want to undermine this immoral tendencies as Mohamad did. What u say it giant or legend.

  25. KalBhairav says

    @veda:

    not even the right to speak on behalf of veda/vedic rishis.

    How does one go about acquiring this right?

  26. Vinay Arya says

    Dear all
    We have to get united.We have not to break into pieces.We have to save Vedas,Vedic culture,Bharat’s heritage its past and its glory.Our Rishis were great.But,look at us.Please see the following virtual conversation to understand the concept.
    Mr. A:-You are a Rajput.
    Mr. B:-You are are a brahman.
    Mr.A.:-You are a stupid.
    Mr. B:-You are stupid.
    Mr. A slapps Mr. B and in turn Mr. B slaps Mr. A.The two brings their guns.They shoot each other and kill each other.
    Mr. C come and acquires their position and rules over that place.
    This is something that is happening with us.
    So,shouldn’t we completely destroy the caste system with its lengthy roots?

  27. Truth Seeker says

    @Vinay Arya
    Truly said, these Butchers living in our country, eating of our country but doing slavery of Arabs & abusing legends (Rama, krishna, Harishchander, Shivaji, Dayanad) of this country.

  28. says

    Agniveer Ji

    Can you please tell me that why most of the Rajputs and Kats are hot headed and are warrior races.Any specific reason.If you see anyone of them they have one thing in common that they are brave although they are on of the reason of loos of our nation as they got into wrong things.

    Even in Muslims Pathans are no one but Rajputs and are considered same.Any answer opn this.

    Thanks
    Veer

    • says

      Namaste Veer

      Genes, food habits, family environment, and self determination (freewill) collectively decide how a person is going to behave. It is completely wrong to single out the genes as the only factor to affect the properties like wisdom, valor, emotions etc. Someone lacking in few of them can make up by improving others and most importantly by strong willpower.

      Pandavas were the biggest heroes after Krishna in Mahabharat. They were matchless in courage and strength though they were not the biological sons of Kshatriya Pandu. Pandu himself was the son of a Brahmin! And most of the Rajputs claim to be the descendants of Arjuna! So you can see genes had hardly any role to play in the lives of legends.

  29. says

    OM Vajra

    Please enlighten me on this.

    How can educated or uneducated Rajput and Jats whether they are Muslim or Non-Muslims can have same traits like.Whether they were Rana Pratap Or Jai chand or Man Singh.In Every case they has these three common.

    * Anger.
    * Courage
    * Bravery.
    * Strong Will.

    Somehow these are missing in others Like Baniyas or traders or Brahmins etc except few exceptions.

    Will appreciate some logical reasoning.How come even without education and environment these people are powerful,even bodily from others.

    Thanks
    Veeer

    • logical says

      @Veer
      brother these traits are not genetic….if u see even sikhs have the same traits…and reason is not genetic makeup but the environmental conditions and upbringing in family and the ideals inserted in a person as a child as he grows up…if a raj put or a sikh family adopt a baniya new born even he will have the same mental traits and after 1 or two generations even physically……if u study human genetics u will know that physical and mental makeup of an indiavidual doesnt totally depend on genes but environment affect them greatly…that is why people in south india have darker complexion then north indians….and same goes for certain traits attributed to various castes…ofcourse if ur generations are doing same kinda activity for ages u will have more tendency to do that activity easily …..m not good at writing ..it would be easier if i could talk to u but i hope this helps

  30. learner says

    Logic is that we can never generalize some property over a set by considering just a small subset of it i.e., if a small subset of a set holds some property it does not imply that each element of that set will hold that property. We do not know all the rajputs or jats or baniyas or the people of any caste (so called), then how can we say that all people of that particular caste have this trait.

  31. Sri says

    @x
    You are a castiest person. You like defend your birth from the Mouth of God.
    1) The filthy Mutt Peetathipathis are like you.
    2) The filthy Pujaaris are like you.
    3) The filthy Kanchi mutt people are like you.

    You are the thorn in our fine Vedic cloth.

    -Vijay

  32. Sri says

    I’d also like to point out one more thing. The castiest Pundits refused the Muslim Pundits of Kashmir to be reconverted to Hinduism during the reign of Maharaja Ranjit Singh (Sher-e-Punjab). Now they are driven away by their own men…

  33. yash says

    the most important point in this regards is that all four caste reside in every human. but the one with high satwa guna were perhaps called brahmin, and one with high tamsik guna were shudras.
    it is also written somewhere that a brahmin if indulge in wrong activities are degraded to shudras.

    thus this thing indicates that the fourth caste consists of extremely degraded humans, and as somewhere vivekananda had said that dharma was aimed to upliftment of lower caste to upper caste.

    somewhere i read that in early age caste were decided by the time from which person start getting education. like one who got upnayan sanskar at age of 6 were brahmin, one at 8 were kshatriyas, one at 10 were vaishyas, and those who didn’t start education even after that time were shudras. thus education and that too from right time of learning had a deep impact on characteristics of person.

    • says

      Yash

      ——–the most important point in this regards is that all four caste reside in every human.——–

      Perfectly said Bro.

      ———-somewhere i read that in early age caste were decided by the time from which person start getting education.———

      Little correction. Varna was decided by the time at which person used to end his/her education. Those who became experts in Science and Technology were Brahmins. And so on.. And Shudra used to be one who did not complete his/her education. And when he/she would do it, his/her Varna would automatically change.

  34. Ravinder Nath Watts says

    Every one of us is born Shudra. It is the family, circumstances, society, and neighbourhood, and various other factors create a system of livingthat makes all thek difference in becoming a class amongt them. The Brahmana in the ancient period was supposed to work as a think tank therefore he was either finding the realities or truths for the betterment of society, Kshatrya was supposed to administer the best rules formed for the betterment of the society and He was entitled to take care of the Brahman and get advice since Brahmana was a think tank and he was supposed to the impartial. Now the finances part came which needs production of food and other articles for the society which was taken caare of by a class called the Vaishyas their job was to do farming, store the produce and with the advancement find out ways and means to preserve the food and perishable articles and trading was done by this class. The rest were covered under the labour class or the Shudras. Intercaste marriages were the order of the day.
    The teaching class Brahmana or the Guru usually stuch to strict rules they did not marry any other class but rest of the three Varnas were getting inter class marriages. This went on upto the advent kof foreign invaders nearly about 1000 years ago. Thereafter the soldiers have to be conscripted to fight the invaders. This class system started eroding and a new system arose.
    the Brahmin could not get respect from the rulers who were Muslims. They had started shifting to the work done by other classes. The specialization in skills sprung. It was an intrusion into the work of Shudras or the labour class. The teacher , learning foreign language like persian started the best brains have to serve as the Munshis, All those brahmins who was unable to get food started growing it was intrusion into the work of a Vaishya. Hence a new class sprung up which was Kayastha ( the Brahmins who adopted to do farming as a result all such Brhamins became Kayastha a new caste, The illiterate Brahmins started…

  35. says

    Earlier casts were decided on the basis of a profession or karma (action or duties) one followed. And no caste was superior or inferior to one another.

    Some people just for their selfish motives and greed started this upper and lower caste concept and practices.

    Since the children at earlier times learnt at home hence a trend of expectation started that the son of a person of particular cast/profession/karma would have same caste/profession/karma. Since under such education system almost all relatives too had same profession therefore communities having same professions evolved. This is what actually the concept of caste was.

    But now a days since one is free to chose his or her profession due to the change in education system, therefore caste system has no meaning left in today’s world.

    Therefore to differentiate and treat on the basis of the caste of their ancestors is ambiguous

    • Jay says

      Caste is a Portugeuse word. It is not from India, it is not from Hinduism. When the Portugeuse came they projected their Caste system on to Hinduism since that is how they understood things. What is their Portuguese concept of caste is below. In Hinduism there is only Varna which is non-hereditary, and in India there are communities(jatis). Some jatis took up a profession and were known by that profession. That profession fell under one of the four Varna categories of professions.

      “Casta

      Casta (Spanish: [ˈkasta], Portuguese: [ˈkaʃtɐ, ˈkastɐ]) is a Spanish and Portuguese term used in 17th and 18th centuries mainly in Spanish America to describe as a whole the mixed-race people which appeared in the post-Conquest period. A parallel system of categorization based on the degree of acculturation to Hispanic culture, which distinguished between gente de razón (Hispanics) and gente sin razón (non-acculturated natives), concurrently existed and worked together with the idea of casta.

      The system of castas, or genizaros was inspired by the assumption that the character and quality of people varied according to their birth, color, race and origin of ethnic types. The system of castas was more than socio-racial classification. It impacted every aspect of life, including economics and taxation. Both the Spanish colonial state and the Church expected more tax and tribute payments from those of lower socio-racial categories.[1][2]
      Contents

      1 Etymology
      2 Castas
      3 Pintura de castas
      3.1 Sample sets of Casta Paintings
      3.2 Gallery
      4 See also
      5 References
      6 Bibliography
      7 External links

      Etymology

      Casta is an Iberian word (existing in Spanish, Portuguese and other Iberian languages since the Middle Ages), meaning “lineage”, “breed” or “race.” It is derived from the older Latin word castus, “chaste,” implying that the lineage has been kept pure. Casta gave rise to the English word caste during the Early Modern Period.[3][4]
      Castas
      De español y mulata, morisca. Miguel Cabrera, 1763, oil on canvas, 136×105 cm, private collection.

      During the Spanish colonial period, Spaniards developed a complex caste system based on race, which was used for social control and which also determined a person’s importance in society.[5] There were four main categories of race: (1) Peninsular, a Spaniard born in Spain; (2) Criollo (feminine, criolla), a person of Spanish descent born in the New World; (3) Indio (fem. india), a person who is descendent of the original inhabitants of the Americas; and (4) Negro (fem. negra) – a person of black African descent, usually a slave or their free descendants.[5]

      General racial groupings had their own set of privileges and restrictions, both legal and customary. So, for example, only Spaniards and Amerindians, who were deemed to be the original societies of the Spanish dominions, had recognized aristocracies.[6][7] Also, in America and other overseas possessions, all Spaniards, regardless of their family’s class background in Europe, came to consider themselves equal to the Peninsular hidalgía and expected to be treated as such. Access to these privileges and even a person’s perceived and accepted racial classification, however, were also determined by that person’s socioeconomic standing in society.[8][9][10]

      Persons of mixed race were collectively referred to as “castas”.[11][12] Long lists of different terms, used to identify types of people with specific racial or ethnic heritages, were developed by the late 17th century. By the end of the colonial period in 1821, over one hundred categories of possible variations of mixture existed.[13] The terms for the more complex racial mixtures tended to vary in meaning and use and from region to region. (For example, different sets of casta paintings will give a different set of terms and interpretations of their meaning.) For the most part, only the first few terms in the lists were used in documents and everyday life, the general descending order of precedence being:

      Españoles (Spanish)

      These were persons of Spanish descent. People of other European descent who had settled in Spanish America and adapted to Hispanic culture, such as Pedro de Gante and the Marquises of Osorno and Croix, would have also been considered Españoles. Also, as noted above, and below under “Mestizos” and “Castizos,” many persons with some Amerindian ancestry were considered Españoles. Españoles were one of the three original “races,” the other two being Amerindians and Blacks. Both immigrant and American-born Españoles generally shared the same rights and privileges, although there were a few cases in which the law differentiated between them.[14] For example, it became customary in some municipal councils for the office of alcalde to alternate between a European and an American. Spaniards were therefore divided into:

      Peninsulares (Spaniards)

      Persons of Spanish descent born in Spain (i.e., from the Iberian Peninsula, hence their name). Generally, there were two groups of Peninsulares. The first group includes those that were appointed to important jobs in the government, the army and the Catholic Church by the Crown. This system was intended to perpetuate the ties of the governing elite to the Spanish crown. The theory was that an outsider should be appointed to rule over a certain society, therefore a New Spaniard would not be appointed Viceroy of New Spain. These officials usually had a long history of service to the Crown and moved around the Empire frequently. They usually did not live permanently in any one place in Latin America. The second group of Peninsulares did settle permanently in a specific region and came to associate with it. The first wave were the original settlers themselves, the Conquistadors, who essentially transformed themselves into lords of an area through their act of conquest. In the centuries after the Conquest, more Peninsulares continued to emigrate under different circumstances, usually for commercial reasons. Some even came as indentured servants to established Criollo families. Therefore, there were Peninsulares of all socioeconomic classes in America. Once they settled, they tended to form families, so Peninsulares and Criollos were united and divided by family ties and tensions.

      Criollos (Spanish Americans)

      A Spanish term meaning “native born and raised,” criollo historically was applied to both white and black non-indigenous persons born in the Americas. In the contemporary historical literature, the term usually means only people who in theory were of full direct Spanish ancestry, born in the Americas. In reality white Criollos could also have some native ancestry, but this would be disregarded for families who had maintained a certain status.[15]), As the second- or third-generation of Spanish families, some Criollos owned mines, ranches, or haciendas. Many of these were extremely wealthy and belonged to the high nobility of the Spanish Empire. Still, most were simply part of what could be termed the petite bourgeoisie or even outright poor. As life-long residents of America, they, like all other residents of these areas, often participated in contraband, since the traditional monopolies of Seville, and later Cádiz, could not supply all their trade needs. (They were more than occasionally aided by royal officials turning a blind eye to this activity). Criollos tended to be appointed to the lower-level government jobs[16]—they had sizable representation in the municipal councils—and with the sale of offices that began in the late 16th century, they gained access to the high-level posts, such as judges on the regional audiencias. The 19th-century wars of independence are often cast, then and now, as a struggle between Peninsulares and Criollos, but both groups can be found on both sides of the wars.

      De Mestizo y d’India; Coyote. Miguel Cabrera, 1763, oil on canvas, Waldo-Dentzel Art Center.

      Indios (Amerindians)

      The original inhabitants of the Americas and considered to be one of the three “pure races” in Spanish America, the law treated them as minors, and as such were to be protected by royal officials, but in reality were often abused by the local elites. After the initial conquest, the elites of the Inca, Aztec and other Amerindian states were assimilated into the Spanish nobility through intermarriage. The regional Native nobility, where it existed, was recognized and redefined along European standards by the Spanish and had to deal with the difficulty of existing in a colonial society, but it remained in place until independence. Amerindians could belong to any economic class depending on their personal wealth.[17][18]

      Mestizos (1/2 Amerindian & 1/2 Spanish)

      Persons with one Spanish parent and one Amerindian parent. The term was originally associated with illegitimacy because in the generations after the Conquest, mixed-race children born in wedlock were assigned either a simple Amerindian or Spanish identity, depending with which culture they were raised. (See Hyperdescent and Hypodescent.) The number of official Mestizos rises in censuses only after the second half of the 17th century, when a sizable and stable community of mixed-race people with no claims on being either Amerindian or Spanish appeared.

      Castizos (3/4 Spanish & 1/4 Amerindian)

      One of the many terms, like the ones below, used to describe people with varying degrees of racial mixture. In this case Castizos were people with one Mestizo parent and one Spanish parent. The children of a Castizo and a Spaniard, or a Castizo him- or herself, were often classified and accepted as a Criollo Spaniard.[15]

      Cholos (3/4 Amerindian & 1/4 Spanish)

      Persons with one Amerindian parent and one Mestizo parent.

      Mulattos (1/2 African & 1/2 Spanish)

      Persons of the first generation of a Spanish and Black/African ancestry. If they were born into slavery (that is their mother was a slave), they would be slaves, unless freed by their master or were manumitted. In popular parlance, mulato could also denote an individual of mixed African and Native American ancestry.[19] Further terms to describe other degrees of mixture included, among many others, Morisco, (not to be confused with the peninsular Morisco, from which the term was obviously borrowed) a person of Mulatto and Spanish parents, i.e., a quadroon, and Albino (derived from albino), a person of Morisco and Spanish parents, i.e., an octoroon.

      Zambos (1/2 Amerindian & 1/2 African)

      Persons who were of mixed Amerindian and Black ancestry. As with Mulattos, many other terms existed to describe the degree of mixture. These included Chino and Lobo. Chino usually described someone as having Mulatto and Amerindian parents. (Since there was some immigration from the Spanish East Indies during the colonial period, chino is often confused, even by contemporary historians, as a word for Asian peoples, which is the primary meaning of the word, but not usually in the context of the castas. Chino or china is still used in many Latin American countries as a term of endearment for a light-skinned person of African ancestry. Lobo could describe a person of Black and Amerindian parents (and therefore, a synonym for Zambo), as in the image gallery below, or someone of Amerindian and Torna atrás parents.

      Negros (Africans)

      With Spaniards and Amerindians, this was the third original “race” in this paradigm, but low on the social scale because of their association with slavery. These were people of full Sub-Saharan African descent. Many, especially among the first generation, were slaves, but there were sizable free-Black communities. Distinction was made between Blacks born in Africa (negros bozales) and therefore possibly less acculturated, Blacks born in the Iberian Peninsula (Black Ladinos), and Blacks born in the Indies, these sometimes referred to as negros criollos. Their low social status was enforced legally. They were prohibited by law from many positions, such as entering the priesthood, and their testimony in court was valued less than others. But they could join militias created especially for them. In contrast with the binary “one-drop rule”, which evolved in the late-19th-century United States, people of mixed-Black ancestry were recognized as multiple separate groups, as noted above.

      Other fanciful terms existed, such as a torna atrás (literally, “turns back”) and tente en el aire (“hold-yourself-in-midair”) in New Spain or a requinterón in Peru, which implied that a child of only one-sixteenth Black ancestry is born looking Black to seemingly white parents. These terms were rarely used in legal documents and existed mostly in the New Spanish phenomenon of Casta paintings (pinturas de castas), which showed possible mixtures down to several generations.[20]” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castas

      • says

        Caste is used to describe the in Varnas (sanskrit word) vedas in english, from where that word comes from you have enlightened.

        Wikipedia – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism). Varnas are used to describe the professions/karma one follows. It is just a social categorization and nothing else. This categorization can be found all around the world irrespective of religions. It just has been specified or written down in vedas.

        • Jay says

          The Portuguese mistakenly called Varna “caste”, projected their understanding of Casta to it.

          “Such a process of expansion, settled agricultural production, and pluralistic integration of new peoples led to the development of India’s uniquely complex system of social organization, which was mistakenly labeled as the caste system by the Portuguese. For what the Portuguese called “Caste” in the sixteenth century was, in fact, the ideal Rig Vedic “class” (Varna) system of brahmans, kshatriyas, vaishyas, and shudras, whereas what Indians mean by caste is really a much more narrowly limited, endogamous group related by “birth” (jati). The actual social pattern that began to emerge in the later Vedic period, however, was a combination of both Varna and Jati systems.” from A New History of India by Stanley Wolpert

          Varna is non-hereditary and is what Hinduism speaks of, and it is incorrect for the Portuguese to have projected Casta.

          Jati is community and is its own social system, but this is not Hinduism. It is more a general system cross religions, cross countries if you think about it. Many countries have unique communities that people are born into.

          Portuguese had a casta (caste in English) system based on race mix and birth as pointed out above which determined social status.

          To call jati caste is also inaccurate because communities alone are not necessarily different in social hierarchy (there are thousands of communities) and it is not race mix based unlike the Portuguese’s Casta in Latin America, and historically in India, a jati location in Varna changed with occupation change that the jati associated itself with.

  36. Mission 2050 says

    All the religions have their faults,no doubt we Hindus also had a lot and still have,we are in the path of correction,i think Christians also have also corrected a lot and now it will be the turn of Muslims who have to correct most-may be during correction,their whole basic ideas will be collapsed unlike the Hindus or others.

  37. Raconteur ! says

    This maligned propaganda the Britishers left along with the theories of ARYA-DRAVIDAN race along with the thing that there existed a severe discrimination between people in India based on caste is something which we have to understand from a proper perspective.

    There is diffrent in varna (Class) & caste(Jati) which means Class & Jatis. Jatis were presume Lohar, sonar, jat, kumbhar, bunkar etc. Now if u see these jatis they have inter class system in which people of their own jati take up the duties of brahmin, some choose to be vaishya, some kshatriya and many shudra ! then why did these people have the same within the same varna of Shudra !

    What is the connection of this system with Traditional Economic system of India ? Was it really Barter system that Existed as the same Breed of Birtishers Taught us ? I believe there could be several hour long discussion this subject. the same can never be corrected by lil writing piece !

    • Arun says

      I would distinguish Varna from class which has an economic hierarchy component. Varna lumps professional fields into one of four categories, but those jobs have varying income. Brahmins are most often far poorer than a Vaishya (merchant) or Kshtriya (king), but it is a profession that is highly skilled. Class classifies primarily income – upper class are rich, middle class middle rich, and lower class are economically strapped.
      I would also distinguish Jati from the Portuguese word caste. This is the real caste system which is Portuguese and European based on racial permanent hierarchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casta
      When they came to India they projected their caste system onto Indian society. Jati is community and Jatis are not supposed to be in any hierarchical relationship to each other. They are their own unique sub-ethnic groups with their own languages and traditions and cultures.

      We should not use the Portuguese word caste to describe either Varna or Jati. And class is not accurate either.

      • Raconteur ! says

        please you’ve got me wrong, maybe I could not interpret Varna properly . and where is the concept of rich and poor arrived. If u see carefully we have 8 laxmis, and the person who had anyone of them was considers equally rich to the one who has Dhan Laxmi. For example a person who has a lot of Dhanya but no Dhan were equall, but not today. Today you may have 100 cows but if you dont have money than your poor. but it was not the same Traditionally. its only after the introduction of the Note system that the class began to originate as rich, medium and all., but they were not there traditionally.

        And about the Jatis I would like to clarify that please do have some practical research. Each jati has its own hierarchy wherein people from within the community have brahmin, kshatriya & Vaishya, and if u see their Jati puranas which describe, the origin of this universe, In the universe our planet, in the planet our Jati, and among all the Jatis superiority of their own jati, you would come across the fact that each community is portrayed as superior and hence people took pride in it. Varna was integral part of communities.

        When Britishers made a research of total jatis in India for the First time, they found about 96000 jatis. Now the problem they faced was how to categorize them? So a simple way they thought was to categorise on the basis of the duties that they took up internally. Hence all the people in all the jatis who used to be brahmins in their own community were classifies into brhaman and so on and a maligned propaganda was spread that the indian society was always like this.

        • Arun says

          Then it sounds like we are in agreement that class and Varna are two different concepts, and Varna should not be equated to economic class. Also a person being proud of his own jati is not the same as the jati being positioned as above or below another. Jatis are endogenous communities – in the west in multicultural societies you have Irish jatis, Jewish jatis, Cuban jatis say living in the same state. Within these jatis you have people with diverse professions – some priests, some businessmen, some leaders, some janitors…. but all in the same jati. Jati is not the Portuguese word and system caste. Jati and Protuguese caste are again two different concepts and should not be equated with each other. Varna, Jati, Class, Portuguese Caste are 4 different concepts.

          • Raconteur ! says

            Please Leave Portuguese behind. When you talk about Indian System you need to talk from our perspective. Jati is a Sanskrit word which means ” Born in” which means I’m born in a so & so Jati, which did so & so Work.

            If you intermingle all these things it only leads to greater confusion ! Was India Discriminating with its people on the basis of your Jati ? Did Untouchability was the concept that ever existed in India or is a myth just like Arya Dravida theory taught to us or was it borned during the britishers reign in India. can some clarify how much amount of our syllabus taught to us is being actually narrated by British in our books. And if Arya Dravida theory like bullshit is being accepted what is the credibility of other topics ?

            And If what Macaulaya said in his Parliament speech about his studies in India is True, how could the above facts be proven in That Light !

          • Arun says

            This is your words:
            “There is diffrent in varna (Class) & caste(Jati) which means Class & Jatis”

            It is you who are intermingling Varna with class and Jati with Caste. Read my two comments again. My comments were about how Varna is NOT class and how Jati is NOT caste (caste is Portuguese, not Indian/Hindy). I have in my past two comments been asking YOU to leave the Portuguese caste behind and NOT mix it with Jati like you did in your sentence above. Varna and Jati are Indian/Hindu concepts and Class and Caste are European concepts. This is why I wrote these are four distinct concepts and should not be mixed with each other.

  38. Raconteur ! says

    Ok..What do you call Varna & jati in English then tell me ? anyways , But you seem to agree that we had a Varna & Jati based vyavastha right? Then in such a vyavastha there were complexities which surfaced where some people are portrayed to dominate the shudras and all that stuff ? Is that true ?

    • Madhu says

      I don’t know what Varna & jati in English are called.
      The varna vyavastha is like anyone can be in any of the four categories depending on ones skill.For example Veda Vyasa,Valmiki,Kalidasa were Shudra but they became Brahmin.Viswamitra was Kshatriya but became a Mahirishi(Brahmin) and his sons were Shudra.
      My view is it outlived its purpose.Now you can find all these 4 qualities in every person including you and me. I read somewhere don’t remember where but there used to be Brahmin dalits(don’t know still exist or not?)

      • Ankur says

        The point is why does every concept (word) need an equivalent in English, if they don’t have it they simply don’t have it, start using the original samskrit word rather than a loose interpretation.

        • Madhu says

          @Ankur I think you are addressing me.
          My using of words are different but the meaning is the same.If they don’t have it they will stick to whatever they have it for example most of the Indians believe meaning of Dharma is Religion when it is not. It can’t be coined in one English word. There are more than one meaning for Dharma. It’s a tough task to convince one that there are no English words for some samskrit words.

    • Arun says

      There is no one word in English to adequately describe Varna or Jati.

      Varna can be described as categorization of a multitude of occupations or jobs into four general non-hereditary categories.

      Jati can be described as community or guilds. Jati is often (but not always) an endogamous ethnic community and can also be a guild.

  39. Gautam Sareen says

    Wonderful now that’s what i was looking for this what needs to be done not in India but in whole world .However I am sad as well there are so many educated in Indian government but none of them have actually looked in this matter even Indian Army have distinction on caste .Agniveer is it possible that you can do something to improve the Wikipedia for Indian caste there are so many wikipedia for different caste is it possible that you can actually go in there discussion details and let them know what exactly is caste because there are so many people in India and across the world who wants to know about there caste and they simply rely on wikipedia for the truth .It is humble request because the info which you shared is truth ,till today i somewhere in my thougts i believed in caste system but i was always looking for the truth so thats how i reached to your website and found all this .I am interested in Vedas and Truth today because of your efforts i understood the truth for this caste system i wish all the very best and i am going to direct large number of people towards this website .Today i felt like that there is another world of reality in which we live is just hoax .I am martial artist i practice war fare the Art is Called Shastar Vidiya or Jungi Vidiya if you have anything related to this so please let me know .Jai Mahakal

  40. Seeker says

    Thank you very much for all this indepth explanation and important knowledge. God bless you for all the great work you are doing.

  41. Sunny Sharma says

    Thank you for your very indepth explanations. I’m still confused as to the origins of the caste system. I read somewhere that the “varna” (misinterpreted as color) means characteristics or traits all individuals possess. From my understanding of what you wrote, the caste system was a political tool, but does anyone know when it began and who started it? This is an open question.

  42. Sunny Sharma says

    Putin is establishing a new Russian nationalism. I believe its time for India to do the same after shedding the ridiculous caste system and uniting aganist corruption. Nonetheless, uniting such a diverse (and politically corrupt) country is easier said then done.

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