Manu Smriti and Punishment

This post is also available in Gujarati at http://agniveer.com/manu-smriti-and-punishment-gu/

This post is also available in Hindi at http://agniveer.com/manu-smriti-and-punishment-hi/

In this brief article, we shall review the second popular allegation on Maharshi Manu – that he legalized harsh punishments for Shudras and special penal provisions for upper-castes and especially Brahmins.

As we have reviewed in previous article http://agniveer.com/3308/manu-smriti-and-shudras, around 1471 out of 2685 shlokas have been proven to be later adulterations.

Thus all those shlokas that recommend special provisions for upper-castes and harsher punishments for Shudras are part of these bogus adulterations that are very easily identifiable.

If we review the original Manu Smriti, that is based on Vedas, the situation is completely opposite. As per Manu, penal system takes into account the education, social influence, designation, nature of crime and impact of crime while recommending punishments.

Manu offers greater respect and status to Brahmins – the educated ones. Dwijas or twice born or those who completed their education are provided heightened standing in society so far they conduct noble deeds. But when it comes to crimes, they also have to face more severe punishments. With greater potentials, come greater responsibilities and stricter punishments when one fails to fulfill those responsibilities.

(Here, I would like to emphasize once again that Brahmin or Dwija has nothing to do with birth. Its all about education.)

If such a penal code be adopted in our nation, bulk of the crimes and corruptions would cease to exist and politics will become a field where any Tom, Dick or Harry does not dare to enter and pollute like it is happening today.

For a more detailed coverage, please refer Chapter 6 of Satyarth Prakash or Light of Truth by Swami Dayanand Saraswati which is available at http://agniveer.com/2037/satyarth-prakash/ and http://agniveer.com/2092/light-of-truth/

Also review Chapter 8,9 and 10 of Manu Smriti edited by Dr Surendra Kumar (Aarsh Sahitya Prachar Trust, Delhi)

We reproduce a few shlokas that are relevant in the current discussion.

8.335: Be it the father, mother, teacher, friend, wife, son or priest, one who conducts a crime is punishable by the ruler.

8.336: When the punishment for an ordinary citizen is 1 cent, the punishment for those in ruling class should be 1000 cents. In other words, the punishment for those in legislation, executive or judiciary should be 1000 times that for ordinary citizens.

The concept of immunity to MPs and Judges from impeachment and legal framework is shamelessly against Manu Smriti.

Swami Dayanand adds here – Even a peon in any department of government should have a punishment that is 8 times that for ordinary citizens. And all other office bearers should have a punishment proportionate to their designation till it is 1000 times for the topmost designation. Because unless government officials have a punishment that is significantly harsher compared to ordinary citizens, the government would destroy the public. Just as taming a lion demands harsher control and a goat much lesser control, similarly to ensure safety of public, government officials should have extremely harsh punishments.

Deviation from this penal code is the root cause of all these corruption stories. Unless this is rectified, all other efforts to transform the nation would fall flat.

Manu-Smriti-and-Punishment--

8.337-338: If one conducts a theft willingly and in full senses knowing the implications, he should be penalized 8 times that of ordinary thief if he is a Shudra. The penalty should be 16 times if he is a Vaishya, 32 times if he is a Kshatriya and 64 times if he is a Brahmin. The punishment can be even 100 times or 128 times if he is a Brahmin. In other words, the punishment should be directly proportional to knowledge and social status of the criminal.

Thus contrary to popular perceptions, when it comes to punishments, Manu Smriti is most lenient on Shudras because of their lack of education, significantly harsher on Brahmins and harshest on the government officials. In current context, the Prime Minister, Chief Minister, Chief Justice, Leaders of National Political Parties deserve harshest punishments if they do something wrong. The Ministers, MPs, MLAs, Governors, Judges come the next. Then comes the turn of Bureaucrats and Government Officials. And even a peon of a Government Department deserves much harsher punishment compared to ordinary citizens.

Among ordinary citizens, the educated class and those with influential social status who neglect their duties deserve harsher punishments.

As we said, with greater responsibilities come greater punishments. This is the real penal system of Manu Smriti.

And if so-called birth based Brahmins indeed want to claim supremacy over so-called birth-based Shudras, then they should also be ready to accept stricter punishments for themselves. Most birth-based Brahmins do not know about Vedas. Now Manu says that those Brahmins who put efforts in other areas except Vedas are Shudras. Refer 2.168. This is insult to Brahmins. As per fake verses of Manu Smriti, the minimal repentance for harming a Brahmin even verbally is to remain hungry for a day (11.204 as per fake Manu Smriti). Thus, those who claim birth-right to Brahminism based on fake verses of Manu Smriti should remain hungry for at least 64 days continuously unless they are masters of Vedas and completely free of any vices including harsh language! (Punishment for Brahmins is 64 – 128 times that of ordinary mortals).

You cannot have “Heads I win and Tails you lose”. Either be logical and honest, follow the real Manu Smriti and reject birth-based caste-system totally OR be prepared for a minimum of 64 days hunger strike until you master Vedas. And then continue the strike for another 64 days if you still do not master Vedas in 64 days!

The bottomline is that birth-based caste system does not even vaguely fit in Manu’s scheme of society. Those who support it or recommend special treatment of birth-based Brahmins in matters of punishments are shamelessly against Manu, Vedas and humanity in general. And as per Manu, such persons who cause harm to society deserve extremely severe punishments.

The notion of Shudras deserving harsher punishments is simply a hoax.

May we all adopt the penal system proposed by Manu Smriti to save the nation from claws of corrupt politicians, judiciary and other pseudo-intellectuals.

Manusmriti 7.17-20:

A powerful and rational penal system (Dand) is the true ruler. Dand is the propagator of Justice. Dand is the discipliner. Dand is the administrator. Dand alone protects the 4 Varnas and 4 Phases of life.

Dand protects the public and Dand keeps the nation awakened. That is why wise people proclaim that Dand is the Dharma.

When Dand is used with wisdom and responsibility, it brings prosperity and bliss among public. And when Dand is used recklessly, it destroys the ruler.

It seems that time has come that the corrupt leaders and officials are destroyed because they have misused the Dand a bit too much! Its also time that we use Dand to punish those who support birth-based discrimination in any manner.

This alone can save society, nation and humanity. There is no other way!

References: Works of Dr Surendra Kumar, Pt Gangaprasad Updhyaya, and Swami Dayanand Saraswati

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Comments

  1. KalBhairav says

    Good one! Muslim and Christian terrorists who accuse Hinduism of discriminatory caste system should support:

    (a)rejection of birth-based caste system.
    (b)reinterpretation of their own religion which specializes in divine discrimination – heaven for believers, hell for nonbelievers :-( That is infinitely worse than man-made caste system.

    Oh Christians and Muslims – please come out and say mere belief in exclusive prophethood of Jesus/Mohammed guaranteeing heaven is infinitely more distasteful than man-made caste system as prevalent in Hindu society.

    • says

      Brother KalBhairav

      I am sure you will go empty handed from this thread too just like all previous ones :( Its too much you are demanding from Jihadis to be honest and truthful.

      • KalBhairav says

        @Vajra:

        Its too much you are demanding from Jihadis to be honest and truthful.

        Indeed :-( No Muslim/Christian seems willing to accept that their God is discriminative. If I dont believe in the exclusivity of their respective prophets I am automatically hell-bound. If that is not discrimination I dont know what is.

        Are Rama/Krishna/Zoroaster/Confucius/Guru Nanak/Buddha/Mahaveer and their messages all fake and trash-worthy? It would appear so from the Bible/Quran.

        • Truth Seeker says

          @All Muslim Brother/Scholars

          There is a lot of hue-cry on prophet. There are tall claims on Mohamd discoveries. But I could not get answer to a simple question that what special Mohamad discover which was not mention in earlier scripture Veda? I have read long debate over the prophecy of Mohamad but no one have provide the information what Mohamad discovered different from Veda. If anybody can me answer I will be thankful to him.

          • Md Noor says

            @ truth seeker mohammad did not discover any thing new……. he was told by allha abt embrology. water cycle & many more ….. he didnt said new thing but he authenticate d old thing like oneness of god like ur vedha said ……. which ur shri shri Ravi Shanker also agreed…. hope u’ll also……. ..Allha Hu Akbar …….

        • samantha francis says

          @kal Bhairav
          everything is thrash worhty except your true vedic relegion :(, so sad of me :(, i m really broken into pieces :(, also Mr Kal Bhairav if you are a true peson who believes in vedas , please change ur lovely name as it represents “the fierce manifestation of Shiva associated with annihilation. He is one of the most important deities of Rajasthan and Nepal, sacred to Hindus and Buddhists alike:( which is an idol , see ur self then comment on others :)

          • Ramachandran says

            @samantha francis,

            Kal Bhaurav can keep any name what his parents have put. He is respecting his parents by keeping it. You or your fore fathers who don’t have that need not comment.

  2. Msj says

    Namaste Agniveer Ji,

    Great information you are providing, we are thankful to you. Sir, I have a query regarding manu Smiriti I am asking it you because you have perhaps read all Manu Smiriti. There is a belief in society & I have also listened from a scholar of Ramayan that Raja Dasrath & kaushlaya were Manu & Satrupa in their previous birth. They did Tapasya and got the Vardan from God that God would take birth in their house in their next birth As Lord Rama. I know this adulteration, misconception & against the Veda . But if we take even adulterated Manu Smiriti such things are mentioned in it or not? Although I am sure it is 100% false & even in adulterated Manu Smiriti such events are not mentioned. Your view please.

  3. Truth Seeker says

    @Muslim Scholar

    Q Where Osama will go after death is it hell or heaven? As you all would be aware Osama bin Landen killed by America.

    Q. How many virgin will be served to Osama by Allah?

    Q. If a Jihadi killed a kufr he get 72 virgin in heaven but in case of Osama he killed thousand of Kufr all across the world, so how many Vargin Allah will provide him. If number is same this is injustice of Allah & why this injustice?.
    Q. Should Muslim organization issued a Fatwa on Pakistan because it could not give proper safety to Jihadi like Osama Bin Laden?

  4. Harshavardhan says

    Namaskaar ,

    “The punishment should be directly proportional to knowledge and social status of the criminal. ”

    Simple and LOGICAL .

    Also we must not forget “Dharmo Rakshti Rakshitah.” ( – Manusruti.)

    Lot of peoples forgot this , and it is creating the problems of converting , problems before our Bharat . , other problems .

    We must give high respect to manusruti to make our Dharma and Bharat stronger.

    Dhanyavaad.

  5. learner says

    aha …!!
    i am totally speechless on the excellent system for punishment in ManuSmriti.
    the point that stricter punishment for the more knowledgeable one, is clearly very good and makes me feel that should be in an ideal system. i hope indian goverment also reads manu smriti.

  6. ashwani says

    i am so happy to see this article. i think this theory can easily eradicate our society from evils of caste system but the problem is our leaders and politicians and dalits also because they don’t want to be called equal to others that may harm their interests.Why to call them dalit or anything else lets all move towards a more spritual life .Let Dalits come forward and struglle to eradicate this word dalit. The punishments suggestd is absolutely right and justified . Politicians shud get more sever punishments and people of high social status also……

  7. Bilal says

    What is Myth ? U people think first about this.

    –noun
    1. a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.
    2. stories or matter of this kind: realm of myth.
    3. any invented story, idea, or concept: His account of the event is pure myth.

  8. Om prakash says

    aadarneey agniveer ji maine manusmriti ka vastvik vishleshn padha. kya dr. surendrkumar ji dwara rachit prakshep viheen manu smriti hindi mein bhi hai. main use kharidana chahta hoon. mujhe is granth ko tatkal kharidkar adhyayn karna aur samaj mein vyapt iske virudh bhrantiyon ko door karne ka pryas shuru karana hai, kyoki main usi samajik privesh mein hoon jahan manusmriti ka ghor virodh ho raha hai. bharteey sabhyata aur sanskriti ko punh sthapit karne ke liye jaroor pryas karoonga chahe vah samudra ke samne ek bood ke brabar hi kyon n ho. plz reply

    • says

      सुरेन्द्र कुमारजी द्वारा भाषित मनुस्मृति हिंदी में ही है. यह दो संस्करण में उपलब्ध है – एक में केवल विशुद्ध श्लोकों को समाविष्ट किया गया है. दूसरे में सभी श्लोक उपलब्ध हैं किन्तु प्रक्षिप्त श्लोकों का विश्लेषण किया गया है. आप ये पुस्तकें http://www.vedicbooks.com से प्राप्त कर सकते हैं. समस्या हो तो ईमेल द्वारा हमसे संपर्क करें.
      प्रबंधक
      अग्निवीर

  9. raj.hyd. says

    manniy om prkash ji , arsh sahitya prachar trasht 455 khari bavli dilli- 6 se bhi vishuddh manusmriti mil sakti hai ! aap chahe to to vahan bhi sampark kar sakte hai !

  10. Bilal, A revert (previous name was Harish) says

    I thought i would get reply from Moderator about the Myth above.
    Mythology is a collection of myths, or the study of them.

    • says

      Namaste Harish (who unfortunately converted to Bilal)

      Please let us know first why you are so interested in the word “myth”!

      Anyway, to cut the answer short, I must tell that believing in breaking the moon, a virgin giving birth to baby, weeping of stones, flying donkey of Muhammad in Shab e Meraj etc can be termed as MYTH!

      I would like to know the motivation behind your conversion to Islam. We all will be very happly to see you back in your original home of Vedas.

      Thanks

      • Bilal , A revert (Previous name was Harish) says

        Who told you that believing in breaking the moon, a virgin giving birth to baby, weeping of stones, flying donkey of Muhammad in Shab e Meraj etc can be termed as MYTH. It’s a real fact.
        Finding what the truth is, is the motivation behind embracing Islam, I am the revert ( not convert).

        I guess you know very well that their are four stages of life according to vedas. Brahmachari (student), Grihasta (Householder) Vanaprasta (forest dweller or Hermit in semi retirement) Sannyasi (the renounced one in full retirement). Just wanted to put you a question, if you are a follower Vedas, are you following the above satages ? if so which stage r u in ?

        • KalBhairav says

          @Revert/Convert/other verts…

          Who told you that believing in breaking the moon, a virgin giving birth to baby, weeping of stones, flying donkey of Muhammad in Shab e Meraj etc can be termed as MYTH. It’s a real fact.

          Lol. Thats the joke of the day for me.

          • Bilal , A revert (Previous name was Harish) says

            Good ,then keep on your Lol till your resurrection, after your resurrection then you wil automatically Cry.

          • says

            Brother Harish

            Just look what happens when someone starts taking Quran seriously. Believing in breaking of moon, virgin giving birth to baby, weeping of stones, flying donkey of Muhammad in Shab e Meraj etc are real facts for you! So obviously an unbroken moon, baby with parents, unconscious stones and donkeys without wings must be hypothetical cases for you being the opposites of REAL facts :(

          • Noor says

            @kal bhairab if u thin it a joke than wht abt Ram,Ganesh & Dr Shiva ( who surgically fitted the ephant head to ganesha , dont he have a spare head of human ) mamu mat bhan apna akal lagaw…

        • truth seeker says

          @Bilal , A revert (Previous name was Harish)
          Once Muhmad Ji had gone on a journey of 7th sky to meet Allah, is it myth or real?

          • truth seeker says

            @Bilal , A revert (Previous name was Harish)

            Allah sitting on his throne on 7th sky watching all of us, is myth or reality?

          • says

            Yes @Bilal. The Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. had gone on a Journey called Mairaj wal Isra, first from Makkah to Al Aqsa in Jerusalem then from there to Sidratu Muntaha in the Heaven sitting on his Buraq (Angel who carried him) to the farthest Heaven. And Allah knows best. http://www.facebook.com/juhisuhel

        • says

          Namaste Harish

          If believing in breaking of moon, virgin giving birth to baby, weeping of stones, flying donkey of Muhammad in Shab e Meraj etc are real facts for you, what is that that is myth in the world?

          What wrong you found in Hinduism? What good you found in Islam? Prove greatness of Islam over Vedas here and get all of us converted to Islam. Or come back to your ancestral home Vedic Dharma. What say?

          You asked —————if you are a follower Vedas, are you following the above satages ? if so which stage r u in ?—————-

          Even if I would not practice above stages, how does this make Vedas wrong? BTW I am in first stage till now.

          Do you agree to discuss on Quran and Vedas? Either I convert or you, decide..

          • Bilal , A revert (Previous name was Harish) says

            Before discussing on Qur’an and Vedas. I would like to ask u a question.
            where is the word Hindu or religion Hindu is mentioned among the 4 vedas, like which volume, chapter, verses ? Plz clarifiy on this ?

          • truth seeker says

            @Bilal , A revert (Previous name was Harish) says

            The word “Hindu” nowhere mention in Veda, Geeta, Ramayan, Mahabharat. Veda are for all.

        • Apolloreach says

          If you claim you are a revert, you are implying the cliched belief that Islam existed aeons ago and that every baby is born into Islam. But the truth is that no child would even know the word God (in repsective Mother tongues) till the child’s Parent(s) make an effort to explain the child about God. Even if we take the evidence based theory that a child in the Mother’s womb can hear from month 5 of pregnancy, still, the vibrations heard based on recitations (kalma or carols or vedic chants) are external stimuli. There is no evidence that a child knows God intuitively, be it while in the womb or when the child is growing. The bottomline, no child knows God unless a Parent says so. So how can you believe that a child is born as a beliver when the child is TAUGHT to belive in a God, only by his/her Parents ???? Hence do away with this useless expression of “revert.”

    • truth seeker says

      @Bilal, A revert (previous name was Harish

      Well done brother you converted into Islam, really is Islam inspiring. I feel also very happy to imagin 55 years old man Muhamad with his 6 years old child wife Ayesha. If you have a painting in which both husband & wife are shown, please give the link. We should also follow foot step of Mohamad even go ahead to Mohamad, if Mohamad married with 6 years old child we also should marry with 3,4 years old child & should teach the world how one should treat child wife having age 1,2,3,4,6 years.Well done Islam!

      • Bilal , A revert (Previous name was Harish) says

        Your’s is great work.
        Ayesh was 19 years old at the time of the consummation of her marriage, and 14 years old at the time of her nikah.

        • truth seeker says

          @Bilal , A revert

          You are idiot & Kufr
          Ayesha was six years old at time of Nikah & she was 9 years old when Muhmad broke her virginity. Do not talk against Kuran & Hadis, these are pious book for me. Mohamad Ji have taught us how to behave with child wife. Mohamad ji is very inspiring for me.

          • Bilal , A revert (Previous name was Harish) says

            I feel Your a better idiot then me. Keep it up

          • truth seeker says

            @Bilal , A revert (Previous name was Harish)

            By the way what is problem believing in Ayesha was six year old at the time of marriage, after all there should not problem for blind believer who believe stone weeps, Breaking of Moon, Mohamad riding on donkey went on 7th sky to meet Allah, virgin giving birth , Allah sits on throne etc.

      • cutbulla says

        If one wants to be a true muslim one must marry his 6 yr old daughter to a 55 yr old married man.
        Hinduism is not static.Manu’s laws then came Chanyakya;s laws…..till Chatrpati Shivaji –all evolved and refined according to times and places.
        But for muslims what was applicable 1400 years back to illiterate nomads,is still applicable.
        If you don’t have any answer just say Allah knows best…….why don;t every muslim try this trick in exams and score marks…..
        When muslims(most of them) lose an argument ,their standard reply is not accepting the fact but muttering “wait till resurrection day”.It seems Allah has made all promises in next world because he could not solve their problems in this world.

  11. KalBhairav says

    @Revert/Convert/other vert:

    Good ,then keep on your Lol till your resurrection, after your resurrection then you wil automatically Cry.

    So, what. It is my problem then. Not yours.

  12. Akhila says

    @Shabeer.. I am answering part of your question now relating to Bhagvat Geet. The sloka writen by is –
    चातुर्वर्न्यम मया सर्ष्टाम गुण कर्मविभागशः /
    तस्य कर्तारमपि माम विद्या कर्तारं अव्ययम //
    गुण और कर्मों के विभाग से ब्रह्मण, क्षत्रिय वैश्य और शुद्र मेरे द्वारा रचे गए हैं /
    उनके करता को भी मुझ अविनाशी परमेश्वर को तूं अकर्ता ही जान //

    The four varnas are created by me according to different qualities (Guna – गुण), and being deeds (karma – कर्म). Although the creator of these, know me as non doer (akartaarm – कर्तारं) being immutable.

    Before I write my comments read the Comments of the great saints on this –

    Lord Krishna is the origin of the four classifications in Vedic culture as spoken here. Those of sattva guna or the mode of goodness are designated as Brahmins or priestly class. Those of mixed sattva guna and rajas guna or the mode of passion are known as ksatriyas or warrior class. Those mixed with rajas guna and tama guna or the mode of ignorance are the vaisyas or mercantile class and those in tama guna are the sudras or servant class. The actions of Lord always possess shama or tranquillity and dama or self- control in their performance thus even if He appears to do nothing He is the performer and if He appears to be the performer He is the non- performer of His actions. Even though He is the origin of the entire creation He has no desires and remains unattached. Thus it has been perceived that those who perform actions without desires, unattached to rewards have developed an attribute of the Lord. (By madhavacharya)

    Now My comment-
    Two words are very important here, one is Guna (Internal quality). Some are good in studies, some are not. Some are brave, some are not, some are good in making money, some are not, some are very bad in all the aboves. So its first Guna that decided to which class a human will belong to. Guna is also said in vedas. Veda classifies Gunas as Satva Guna, Rajja Guna and tammo Guna. Now people corellate these gunas with color of skin. But these are not color of skin, these are attributes given to understand the inner nature of the Gunas. People with satva gunas only (or good quality) are brahmins, rajas gunas are khatriya or baishyas and tamo gunas are sudras.
    In other words, those who are good in studies are brahmins, those who are good in wars are khatriyas, those whoare good in business are baishyas and those who are not good in studies, nor in warfare nor in business are sudras.

    Now the next important word is karma (Deeds) Meaning behavior deeds of a human also effects his varna. Even though one is good in studies, but later joins army will be considered as a khatriya (Prove Ravan, born from a Brahmin, learned all vedas and practiced priesthood for 20 years, then became warrior, afterwards he was considered as a khatriya, and Ram at the end learnt khatriya dharma from Ravan). Similarly if some one is good in wars but later changes to learn and teach will be considered as a brahman (Prove – Rishi Viswamitra was a king. He saw that knowledge has great power then swords. So, he did tapasya to attain knowledge, later he was 1st said as Rajarishi and later Maharishi). If a sudra learns and teaches will be considered as a Brahmin too (Prove – Vyasa Deva, was a sudra, he remained as a shudra till his marriage. Then he learned vedas, wrote Puranas, people called him a great saint and greatest brahmin of that time). Not only a shudra but also a dasyu if learns and delivers knowledge will be said as brahmin (Prove – Valmiki, he was a docait, he used to loot innocent people. later did tapasya, got knowledge and wrote Ramayan. He was also considered as maharishi)

    This is the essence of the sloka cited by you.

  13. says

    @ Shabeer

    So it is suggested that, dont go by the literal meaning of any particular verse of a chapter. read the entire chapter. And remember it is a poem, and the literal translation may not be exact meaning of the sloka. So read in full, understand the summary, then read each and every sloka again, by repeating for atleast 7 to 8 times, you will be able to understant Srimad Bhagavat Geeta. if you dont have time, then ask your question, I will answer you. I am not a master in Geeta, but I have read it 40 times so far, and still each time I read, I get some thing new from it.

  14. arya says

    muslims claim that allah is formless but can they unclaim these things??

    1.Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, ‘I am your Lord,’ and they will say, ‘You are not our Lord.’ And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, ‘Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?’They will say. ‘The Shin,’ and so Allah will then uncover His Shin.
    ————-
    2.Volume 3, Book 41, Number 594:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    Two persons, a Muslim and a Jew, quarrelled. The Muslim said, “By Him Who gave Muhammad superiority over all the people! The Jew said, “By Him Who gave Moses superiority over all the people!” At that the Muslim raised his hand and slapped the Jew on the face. The Jew went to the Prophet and informed him of what had happened between him and the Muslim. The Prophet sent for the Muslim and asked him about it. The Muslim informed him of the event. The Prophet said, “Do not give me superiority over Moses, for on the Day of Resurrection all the people will fall unconscious and I will be one of them, but I will. be the first to gain consciousness, and will see Moses standing and holding the side of the Throne (of Allah). I will not know whether (Moses) has also fallen unconscious and got up before me, or Allah has exempted him from that stroke.”
    ————————
    If you guys claim that allah is formless then why so many mentions of his throne and his form?
    they say quran is the simplest and most unambiguous as it came directly from allah…but it is not so at all…
    please ask zakir naik about this..a

    • says

      see leave it … the author completely gives wrong translations .. and it has become a habit of his!

      you can read the vedas from arya samaj jammnagar website..

      or if you have doubt on any verse , then ask it from agniveer in forum.. about translationof verse and i am sure you will be satisfied…

      that author takes some translations from griffith, some from max muller, some from blatantly wrong indian translators in in that guise tries to cook up an article!!

      • Avinash says

        But he is quoting from arya samaj jamnagar as well. In fact half of the article is dedicated to Arya Samaj translations. Kindly see that.

        • says

          Namaste Avinash

          Dont get into his trap. Have we ever condemned giving punishment to the perpetrators? No. We want them to be punished severely. Our only concern with Islam is whom to punish and for what reason. Islam kills humans because he/she did not recite Muhammadur Rasoolullah or worshipped any idol other than Kaba. Anyone who does not surrender to Muhammad is Wajibul Katl (deserves death) [Quran 9:5, 29]. We say this is Satanic cult. Poor author of that article failed to show any Mantra which asks people to kill others just because they differ with you intellectually.

          BTW he has used only 7 references from Arya Samaj translations out of 28 he gave and rest are from others. Not only that, he has given Gayatri Parivar translation in the name of Arya Samaj. This alone proves he is a blatant liar and need not to be believed.

          Anyway wait for the “truth of Vedic crusade” on our sites.

          • says

            “vedas” — in that verse does not refer to the book!!

            veda means knowledge!! veda means truth !! veda means what is correct !!

            veda means dharma!!

            to do theft , is not vedic….. a person who does theft and justifies theft is a ved-nindak!! a person who justifies something wrong is Ved – Nindak!!

            for such a person the punishment is written.. and i was not able to present it adequately please refer to videos of islam and arya samaj debate !! where these question was raised up and was adequately answered (which satisfied the questioner party)

            at channel
            http:/youtube.com/truthwisdom2008

  15. KalBhairav says

    @Avinash:

    There is a quote in the Bhagvad Gita (I will pull up the reference if I get around to it) where Krishna says to Arjuna that the hymns in the Vedas do NOT matter on gaining moksha. So, Vedas are a means to Brahman, a ladder or a step, if you will.

  16. says

    @ Kaal Bhairab – Are you saying about the followings ??

    yam imam puspitam vacam
    pravadanty avipascitah
    veda-vada-ratah partha
    nanyad astiti vadinah
    kamatmanah svarga-para
    janma-karma-phala-pradam
    kriya-visesa-bahulam
    bhogaisvarya-gatim prati

    “Men of small knowledge are very much attached to the flowery words of the Vedas, which recommend various fruitive activities for elevation to heavenly planets, resultant good birth, power, and so forth. Being desirous of sense gratification and opulent life, they say that there is nothing more than this.”

    trai-gunya-visaya veda
    nistrai-gunyo bhavarjuna
    nirdvandvo nitya-sattva-stho
    niryoga-ksema atmavan

    “The Vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature. O Arjuna, become transcendental to these three modes. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the self.”

    yavan artha udapane
    sarvatah samplutodake
    tavan sarveshu vedesu
    brahmanasya vijanatah

    “All purposes served by a small well can at once be served by a great reservoir of water. Similarly, all the purposes of the Vedas can be served to one who knows the purpose behind them.”

  17. truth seeker says

    @Agniveer
    There is no reply option below the comments in the article
    “Zakir Bhai, MBBS defends Halal meat – Answering Zakir “

  18. says

    WHAT MY HINDU FRIENDS HIDING FROM THE TRUTH?

    ” IF MY POSTING WAS WRONG BRING THE EXACT VERSES THAT I POSTED ”

    NOBODY REPLAY IT………………

    THEN HOW CAN I POSTED VERSES WRONG TRANSLATION………….?

    • truth seeker says

      @Shabeer
      _____WHAT MY HINDU FRIENDS HIDING FROM THE TRUTH?___
      I know your truth reciting the name of Human “Mohamad” in god prayer, killing of animals for tongue test, dream of sex with 72 virgins, Kissing of black stone to please Allah, bowing head before stone Kaba, believe in incest by doing sex with daughter, mother, sister and give excuse of divine sanction from Allah, kill the non-believer & make sex slave their women, consider God a dependent of prophet, Consider God a weak entity who could not do anything of Shaitan when refused to bow down, consider God obsessed with worship desirous, & called kafir who does not believe in above said nonsense. All such things are against Veda. That is why always prefer Veda than nonsense book Kuran.

  19. SAVITA says

    What is true democracy for India, but the law of Dharma ? It is this law that has to be revived, it is this law that must be the foundation of a true democratic India: “It has been said that democracy is based on the rights of man; it has been replied that it should rather take its stand on the duties of man; but both rights and duties are European ideas. Dharma is the Indian conception in which rights and duties lose the artificial antagonism created by a view of the world which makes selfishness the root of action and regain their deep and eternal unity. Dharma is the basis of democracy which Asia must recognise, for in this lies the distinction between the soul of Asia and the soul of Europe.” (India’s Reb p.37- March 16th 1908)
    Francois Gautier, born in Paris in 1950, is a French journalist and writer

  20. Bilal , A revert (Previous name was Harish) says

    The Creator and Sustainer of the Universe is One and has no second. Only He is worthy of praise. Only He is worthy of worship. He isthe Lord of the Worlds. For the well-being of human beings, in this world and the next, and to give them guidance to the true path, Hehas sent Messengers in every age and every land. But some ignorant people of India think that the Lord’s Messengers, sages and greatmen are sent only to India, in spite of the fact that the Aryans themselves came from countries outside India and the Vedas are thereligious scriptures of non-Indian Aryans. The real truth is, that whenever abominations and irreligious practices get out of hand and previous scriptures become corrupted, God sends new Messengers and reveals new scriptures. Those who reject the new Messengers andthe new scriptures and thus follow the superstitions blindly, go headlong towards their doom. On the other hand, those who accept suchMessengers and obey the new scriptures, attain the true path.
    If the current scriptures of the world are examined closely, it will become evident that some of them remained dormant and some otherswere kept hidden from the eyes of men for hundreds, even thousands of years. The Aryans had forbidden the reading of and listening tothe Vedas for the non-Aryans. Under the attack of the enemies, the Bible had disappeared from the face of the earth. That is why thefollowers of various religions had expressed doubts about the validity of their own scriptures. But the Qur’an is a unique scripture in thisregard in that it has never been out of sight for even a day. If the other scriptures of the world are destroyed, it will be impossible torecover them. But millions of those, who have memorised the thirty parts of the vast Qur’an, are available all the time. That is why this book remained intact and uncorrupted for fourteen hundred years. No book in the world can face up to this challenge of the Qur’an. Trulyspeaking, only the Qur’an can claim to be the immutable and eternal message from the Lord.

    http://www...

    • Rushmore says

      Bilal, going by your logic you need to become an Ahmadiyya (if you are already not), as they had a new new Nabi / Mahdi in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. He died only as recent as 1908. Please let me know if you concur. And as an extension, are you also accepting that the Quran got corrupted and hence Miza came along.

        • Rushmore says

          Why is Muhammad the final messenger? Even the guy that stormed the grand mosque @ Mecca in 1979 claimed that he was a mahdi and killed 120 people. Other than the Quranic evidence why do you think that Muhammad is the final messenger?

        • Truth Seeker says

          @Bilal
          Why Allah has became cruel on human by imposing permanent ban on prophet sending for human welfare. What fault we have done Allah does not send prophet in our era so that we can see his miracle with our own eyes.Why Allah doing this discrimination with us.

    • SDC says

      Bilal, just a plain and simple question, what did you revert to and how? Do you even understand the difference between conversion and reversion? Please elaborate for the benefit of fellow posters.

      • Bilal , A revert (Previous name was Harish) says

        Kindly go thru

        “Agar ab bhi na jaage toh (If You Do Not Wake Up Now Then)”
        (English translation: Now or Never by Abdullah Tariq)

        • SDC says

          Bhaiye, hum toh jaage huye hain, tum kaun si behosi mein ho. Mohammad is not a messenger at all. That’s it from me too.

  21. Rushmore says

    Bilal, going by your logic you need to become an Ahmadiyya (if you are already not), as they had a new new Nabi / Mahdi in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. He died only as recent as 1908. Please let me know if you concur.

  22. raj.hyd says

    khud ji bhi bade ajib hai , khud ko to bahut bada gyani batlate hai lekin sangati anpadh se karte hai, apne do hath batlate hai sath me sarvshaktiman bhi batlate hai iblees ji unke samne vidroh karta hai fir BHI sAja nahi depate BALKI USKO TA JINDGI MOHALT dete hai kabhi bhi khuda ji yah nahi kah paye ki tumhe jahannum bhej denge / kya kuran ki koi aisi ayat muslim dikhla sakenge ? adam ki santane khuleaam sage bhaibahano se sex karte hai khudaki isme bhi sahamti rahati hai ! bad me apne niyam bhi badal dete hai ! khuda ji yah bh dava karte hai ki hamne sari kaynat sirf 6 din me bana di , fir vahi khuda ji ko ham dekhte hai ki vah manush ke bachhe ko bnane me 9 mah se bhi jyada samay laga dete hai itni badi kaynat sirf 6 din me … v manusy ki santan 9 mah me kya yah paraspar virodhi bat nahi hai ? kya koi khuda ka banda kahalane vala is bat ka uttar dena chahega ? agar uttar nahi de paye to turant islam bhi chod dena chahiye !

  23. Seeker_of_Truth says

    Dear Angiveer

    I have a question related to punishemnts in Indian culture as per the writings of ancient India – specificlly Arthasastra.
    I clearly understand that Arthasastra is not a sacred or holy text, but is it true, that Chanakya precribed harsher punishments for the lower “castes”? Also, how does Arthasastra fit in with Vedic philosophy?
    I do not know if you have studies this text, but if you have, your opinion will be invaluable.

    • says

      Namaste
      Arthashastra – as available today – is a good text to study administration concepts. But it does contain a lot of stuff that is clearly anti-Vedic and irrational. Very little is know about Chanakya today. But from whatever we know, Chanakya deserves adulations for his nationalistic pursuits. However if existing version of Arthashastra be considered, several portions of it is simply crap and worth being trashed without second thoughts. We believe that Chapter 6 of Satyarth Prakash that contains excerpts from Manu Smriti is much more relevant for those looking for practical concepts and not historical analysis.

  24. adolf says

    @samantha francis:
    >>guess dude you r goin nuts, there is a lot of difference between lukn similar and copying it from vedas
    For me looking similar is same as copying and improving. Other examples of copying is shunya of india. I am not a intellectual properties lawyer otherwise i would have argued with current law.

    >>and regrding Dr Zakir Naik he never said that Quran has been copied from vedas,
    How will he say, the moment he says so he will be killed by peacful people!. His intention is to use vedas and do taqiya so that many people convert into his religion, a religion which preaches to lock women in homes just because some tom cannot control his mind.
    >>so make sure you are reading in ur senses and please convey this to your mates and ur father agniveer
    I am in full sense, havent drank any green or orange alchohol!!. To improve upon an existing ideology is not bad but to not give the old ideology its due respect and to not mention it is considered immorality. Persons who justifies peadophilia, robing and killing of enemies at night, raping of captive woman, cannot understand subtle concepts of morality.
    >>and regarding ur word Plagiarism , i guess vedas are being copied from the earlier versions that were sent by Allah(S.W.T),
    Vedas are oldest preserved books, which humans can still interpret. Till any other books older than vedas comes into light i have every right to believe vedas are words of ISHWAR.
    >>please find out when were vedas originated and who recited it orally and who wrote it and if you dont know
    To use a wheel we dont need to find out where and when it is invented.
    But to claim that our wheel is the best and no other wheel will come after this is foolishness.
    Vedas themselves declare them as Apaurusheya, and to find out an author for them is as good as finding where sherlock homes lives.

  25. lankeshwar90 says

    jai lankeshwar!

    hail satan!

    just to break the ice,who these muslim trolls think their impressing with their pathetic copy and paste nonsense?i mean if you want to debate,dont copy and paste you trolls,take the time to make real arguments instead of quoting that zakir naik clown.jai yazeed

  26. Sridhar says

    I now have a Divine Revelation now. I have gone to 14th hell and found YHWEH. He gifted me a boon to screw up the daughter of Samantha Francis. Now c’mon I’m having a divine revelation.

  27. original siva says

    @bilal
    यदा यदा ही धर्मस्य ग्लानिर्भवति भारत, अभ्युथानम् अधर्मस्य तदात्मानं सृजाम्यहम् |

    परित्राणाय साधुनाम विनाशाय च: दुष्कृताम, धर्मं संस्थापनार्थाय सम्भावामी युगे युगे ||

    read here it is from gita .the gyan of yog is for people of bharat only. and kindly do some resarch work that yoga is amultimillion dollar industry overseas and how many pakistani muslims and muslims from baharain etc(this is not a bombarded exxagerated taqiya)are running after this yoga, reiki(all part of veda) etc etc

  28. KalBhairav says

    @Noor:

    if u thin it a joke than wht abt Ram,Ganesh & Dr Shiva ( who surgically fitted the ephant head to ganesha

    These are mythological stories. The Ithihasas and Puranas are creative stories put in colourful language so as to expound the theory of the Vedas/Upanishads/Brahmasutras/Bhagvad Gita from time to time to those who cannot study the Vedas/Upanishads in lot of time. Think of it as popular religion, if you will. Elephant head onto Ganesha is NOT to be taken literally. Saying doesnt make me any less of a Hindu. There. Now that I have said that can you at now concede that flying donkeys, talking ants, insects throwing stones on Kaaba invaders are also myths? Or DO YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE REAL? That would indeed be the joke of the 21st century!

    There is yet another concept behind Hindu stories and that is that God will appear in any form His/Her devotees want to see God. Some of us find the symbology behind Ganesha appealing. Some of us find stories of devotion to Shiva moving, etc. We use these to better our lives and be good human beings to one another.

    There is YET ANOTHER CONCEPT behind God heads being fitted with animals, etc. Some argue it points towards ancient Hindus talking about how the dividing line between animals and humans is not cut and dried. All of us were created by Brahman. So, we should not slaughter an elephant or a monkey or a pig or a cow.

    There is YET ANOTHER CONCEPT behind our Gods having multiple arms and legs and that goes to show that the concept of God is much greater than us humans. When you see Shiva in the post of Nataraja with different instruments on his various limbs, he is the very picture of activity and each of what his limbs carray has a symbology associated with it as he engages in pralaya (dissolution of the Universe). This is mere sport for our Infinite Lord for He is a Loving God unlike some other Gods out there who will roast us in hell for not worshipping him the right way. ;-)

    • Noor says

      @ Kal bhairav if think ‘(its the joke of the 21st century)’ than up coming Natak R
      1 janma_astami, jis may manchala krishna kas natak
      2 Durga puja jis may ram ka natak jis ka koi wazod nahi
      3 laxmi puja( dipawali) is din sab bhikari dhan wan hoja ya ga
      ya sab natak nahi tho kya hay………
      mamu akal lagaw….

      • KalBhairav says

        @Noor:

        Dude. Do you believe in flying donkeys and talking ants and flying insects throwing stones? Yes or no? I already answered about the allegorical meaning behind Hindu Gods previously.

    • Noor says

      @ kal bherav ……. u considered ramayan & maha bharat as myth & colourfull story ha…. than how could i take ur religion leterally & take as true religion……. mamu starting may locha hay………ok d world is created by brahma ..than plz tell me when is brahma puja or natak?………… killing of animil like buff,beef,goat & cow. many hindu eat meat wht a big deal…. plz go in nepal there brahaman eat meat…so wht ? meet 4 eat not 2 worship….
      ok if 2day’s world human with multi hand & legs than circus organiser surely take him or her…………. i must finish my word with islamic view…. la_kum ….din_na_kum…wali_ya_din….. salamalaikom……

      • KalBhairav says

        @Noor:

        Do you really believe in flying donkey/horse, talking ants and flying insects that can throw stones to attack Kaaba invaders. Yes or No? Or, should these instances be interpreted metaphorically?

        The answer to these question should be independent of what we Hindus believe, right?

        Sigh…why cant Muslims answer any question in a straight-forward manner?

  29. pawan says

    good article. now a days i use to see a programme on aastha bhajan channel bout manusmriti. a study based programme it is.

  30. Aashish Raj says

    i would like to ask the “MANU” to explain me how does he decide that somebody is SHUDRA ,VAISHYA, kSHATRIYA OR BRAHMIN……………………If MANU is kept in front of the modern society then tell me based on the locality where a person is staying or the type of attire he/she has is what he is gonna locate these difference……..Let me ask the most prioritized question i always had about the VARNA SHASTRA which MANU got out………….If a SHUDRA is the one coming from the legs of the PURUSHASUKHTHAM and that is why they are spoilt people then .THEN LETS CUT THE LEGS OF THAT PURUSHASUKHTHAM , that ends the problem. BUT NOBODY WOULD DO THAT BECAUSE WHEN IT COMES TO REALITY THERE IS NO POSSIBILTY OF PEOPLE TAKING BIRTH FROM THE LEGS OR HANDS OR HEADS……..EVERYBODY TAKES BIRTH THE NORMAL WAY………………….All you GUYS BE RATIONAL IN YOUR THINKING THEN THE SOURCE (MANU SMRITHI) OF CORRUPTION WILL BE STOPPING ITS ANYAYA……

    • ajamk says

      LOL man, it seems you haven’t even read the articles properly. Read the articles and you will get your answer.

  31. ajamk says

    @Agniveer
    Hope you can reply to my doubt, even though this article is really old.

    Of course we have enough evidence that varna system should based on meritocracy and not just blind nepotism, we also have to consider that some sort of a loose ‘caste-system’ will form even in an honest society in that children of vaidyas will generally become vaidyas(one can assume atleast 50% probability) if he is competent enough . similarly children of goldsmiths,carpenters,etc will generally become goldsmiths,carpenters. The problem arises when the children are not competent enough to take up the professions of their parents but are still made to take up those professions through nepotism or ‘degraded birth based caste system’. The other problem in a society where ‘degraded birth based caste system’ is practiced is that the higher caste looks down on the lower castes. Without shudras a society cannot function as they form the ‘legs’ of the society. The shudras are the ones that build temples, grow crops, rear animals, produce metal works, make roads, make dams, etc. Hence they must be more respected or equally respected as the brahmins.

    I have read bits and pieces of the wonderful books of sushruta samhita, charaka samhita, ashtanga hridaya. So while there is no doubt that the books contain life saving drugs(which are used to this day and with high success), surgical operations, etc, there are also verses which are ‘funny’ like never to question/criticize a brahmana, never to question/criticize the king, etc. Could the degradation of the varna system have started happening during the time of sushruta itself?? Since sushruta is generally dated somewhere near the time of buddha, could buddha and mahaviira have emerged to to end the degradation of the caste system and put a stop to ritualized slaughter of animals??
    Also to note that all the ayurvedic texts mention the positive qualities of beef,mutton,and meat of various animals like lizard, pigeon, tortoise,etc.
    These few instances cannot be used to discredit the golden stuff in ayurvedic texts but they are unfortunately there.
    Also to note that high end surgery in ayurveda almost completely disappeared after the time of sushruta to now.
    Since ayurveda itself is timeless and most probably sushruta, charaka merely collected and crossreferenced the existing literature and treatment methods during their times, do you think that ayurveda could have been practiced at a higher level prior to charaka,sushruta?? or do you think that the people who followed sushruta,charaka again tampered with the texts and reduced the level of these texts, reduced the quality of surgical treatments and inserted junk??
    Also to add that there is no mention of cruelty towards shudras in ayurvedic texts, but there is unwanted ‘protection’ of brahmins,kings in a few places.

    Of course this is no competition to the manipulated verses of manu smriti which are some of the most horrifying stuff to read.
    My question is do you have any idea when this horrifying verses of the manu smriti were added? under which king’s rule??
    Also why wasn’t the manu smriti made a part of the vedas and become sruti and chanted, whereby they wouldn’t be manipulated. why wasn’t this done??

    Also to make a correction to your post about vedas disapproving alchohol, that it incorrect. Around a quarter of the ayurvedic medicines are arishta, which are alchohols(of around 10-15%). According to ayurveda excess drinking of alchohol is bad and forbidden, but alchohol taken in small quantities with herbs is medicine(arishtas and asavas).

  32. AMBEDKAR IS CONFUSING. says

    Yeah, It is true that Ambedkar is confusing.The reason of this is that he claims in his book that Aryan Invasion theory is a n invention but on the other side he simultaneously claims that Aryan invasion is true.
    I don’t understand what B.M. Ambedkar wanted.

    In his book – Who were the shudras ? He says :-

    ” The theory of invasion is an invention. This invention is necessary because of a
    gratuitous assumption which underlies the Western theory. The assumption is that the
    Indo-Germanic people are the purest of the modern representatives of the original
    Aryan race. Its first home is assumed to have been somewhere in Europe. ”

    This is the link of his book –

    http://drambedkarwas.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/who-were-the-shudras.pdf

    • krishnarao says

      Best quote from Ambedkar:

      “No words can adequately express the great and many evils of polygamy and concubinage, and especially as a source of misery to a Muslim woman. Take the caste system. Everybody infers that Islam must be free from slavery and caste. [...] [While slavery existed], much of its support was derived from Islam and Islamic countries. While the prescriptions by the Prophet regarding the just and humane treatment of slaves contained in the Koran are praiseworthy, there is nothing whatever in Islam that lends support to the abolition of this curse. But if slavery has gone, caste among Musalmans [Muslims] has remained.”

  33. Rohit S Iyer says

    Dear Agniveerji(sanjayji),

    What are the punishments and are there any set of punishments specially mentioned in manusmriti?..
    I need to know one thing is that, when you say that the vedas never mention anything about punishment or any good deed or bad deed then how come u can say that manu smriti classifies people acording to education that brahmins are a sect and shudrasa are a sect.
    I totally disagree, because if I committed a sin then what is that I shall be doing?? according to manu smriti
    There is no hell and heaven there is only our karma and what be do in this right moment to change it, then what is this punishment so called??..
    Please enlighten us on this ”

    Thanks and regards
    Rohit S Iyer

  34. Krishnarao says

    Namaste RamNaryan,

    Niyoga is not talked about in the Vedas. That was an invention that was created much later. Also Dayananda Saraswati (born 1824) said Niyoga was not part of the Vedas.

    And also, I think originally, Niyoga was done where they took the sperm from a great saint, and they injected it in the women. No sex was involved.

  35. Krishnrao says

    Homie,

    You can’t just come on here and point to some random verses in the Vedas that state some BS statement.

    1. Give us the full verse, write it out.
    2. Give us the verse before and after.
    3. Give us the translator.
    4. Give us the name of the group that supports that translation.
    5. Give us the publisher of that translation.
    6. Give us the location where we can get a copy of that translation with your allegations.

    It’s easy to make claims and allegations, time to back your statements up. Be an adult instead of hide.

  36. Jay Arya says

    Krishna roa niyog is mentioned in vedas even swami dayanand saraswati taught it was there is nothing wrong with it

  37. RamNarayan says

    Dear KrishnaRao Namaste!
    I read the article and the artcile is very good.
    One thing seems contradictory or my understanding of english might be wrong.
    Answer to Q a) has “First there is no concept of order in marital relations in Vedas” and the answer for Q c) has
    “Besides , the Rik Veda also say that if at all the women has taken a second man as the new husband(under the condition of first husband being impotent), her first husband cannot have any physical relation with her and he acts as her brother in relation. ”

    What does concept of order in marital relations mean?
    Dhanyawaad!

  38. Krishnarao says

    Namaste RamNarayan,

    What I took away from that article is that Niyog is not mentioned in the Vedas. And the author refers to the common used verses in the Vedas, and their false and real interpretations.

    Now should Niyog be allowed in a Vedic Society, well that is up to debate. Today, I would say NO. Because we have scientific tool that can be used in the place of it, like in vitro fertilization.

    Dhanyavad,
    Krishnarao

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  1. [...] in authentic shastras like the Upanishads or Puranas, but the Dharmashastras are full of them. This is why so many Hindu scholars reject the Dharmashastra as being inauthentic due to the ease of …, and the ease of creating your own Dharmashastra or commentary and giving it a name of some ancient [...]

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