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agniveerupi@sbi,
agniveer.eazypay@icici

Agniveer® is serving Dharma since 2008. This initiative is NO WAY associated with the defence forces scheme launched by Indian Govt in 2022

Is Purush Sukta of Vedas casteist?

This entry is part 8 of 11 in the series Vedas totally reject Caste System

“Vedas are the foundation of birth-based caste discrimination. It is in Vedas – the oldest scriptures of Hindus – the seeds of caste system were laid. And since then, exploitation of certain sections of the population became a mainstay of Hinduism. Later the condition aggravated even further. But because the foundation of the birth based caste system was in Vedas, and Vedas are ultimate unquestionable authority for Hindus, there was no way for the root of caste-system to be eliminated from the society.”

The above-stated belief system seems to be the predominant opinion regarding the origin of caste system infecting a wide diaspora of so-called ‘intellectual’ mindsets.

Who would benefit from Caste system?

Intellectuals from other religions use this as main excuse to hate Hinduism. Those involved in conversion from Hinduism and justifying the conversions done by them or their ancestors would find a convenient justification in blaming it on ‘Vedic’ birth-based caste system. It is a winning proposition for them thus.

Self-proclaimed Brahmins and upper caste

Casteist self-proclaimed Brahmins and so-called Upper-castes use Vedas as the tool to defend their ‘divine’ special rights regardless of their actual deeds. For them, of course, nothing could be more lucrative than an order from Vedas to continue giving an MBBS degree to all future generations of a doctor regardless of whether they actually could even spell ‘medicine’!

Dalit leaders

Many Dalit leaders have used this to explain discrimination in society and further their own political agenda. Who would like to destroy the entire vote-bank by destroying the very foundation of caste-system in totality? Ambedkar was different. He was a genuine seeker of social equality and Dalit upliftment. Ambedkar admitted that the only means for him to interpret Vedas were works of western Indologists since his own knowledge was grossly inadequate. In areas like Aryan Invasion Theory he vehemently criticized the western view! Sadly many modern Dalit leaders misinterpret Ambedkar for their narrow agendas.

Political leaders

Even someone like Mohandas Gandhi, on whose name Anna Hazare led the ‘Gandhian’ movement against corruption that made history, was bugged by this syndrome. Despite his other apparently mature views, with regards to the birth-based caste system, Mohandas Gandhi held firm belief that it was divine and essence of Hinduism. Instead, refusing to accept the very foundation of the caste system, he chose to legitimize it further by giving a special name to certain people – Harijan. What could be a greater insult to them than giving them a tag in the same manner as Arab looters would put chains over their slaves aka Non-Arab Muslims and call them ‘Mawali’? And now they say that ‘Mawali’ actually has a noble meaning! Refer Gandhi & Racism for references.

In fact, the reason ‘Harijan’ seemed to be the right word for so-called Shudras is that as per foolish neo-Hindu casteist views, Hari Bhakti was the ONLY spiritual option for Shudras as they were disallowed access to any Vedic literature! By calling them ‘Harijans,’ one can serve vote bank of bigoted ‘upper castes,’ neutral intellectuals and even ‘lower-castes.’ And indeed, the trick worked if we were to assess the popularity of this word with a demeaning intent.

We do not deny Gandhi’s contribution to society and nation. We admire his charisma. But for sure there are thousands of more unbiased non-dogmatic minds born in this nation who have contributed as much if not more. Despite all that Mohandas Gandhi is claimed to have done for the nation, we can no way admire someone who supported apartheid – the worst of the crimes – so vocally. Our firm belief is that the over-hype and imposition of Gandhi on India at a cost of the utter negligence of so many other role models that this oldest civilization of world has produced is driven by reasons that are different from an unbiased analysis of personalities and their concrete contributions. We need not elaborate on views of his protege Nehru whose ‘Discovery of India’ clearly proves his intent and wisdom. But all that is not the focus of this chapter. The crux is that even so-called reformer politicians could not rise over the myth of Vedic caste system for various non-intellectual reasons.

(None other Swami Dayanand had the guts to proclaim in clear terms, with evidence and reason, that no one is born Brahmin. A duffer born to a so-called Brahmin is worse than a Shudra, and a scholar born in a family of even a so-called Chandal is a Brahmin. Those who call certain people ‘Shudra’ on basis of birth are actually duffers and worse than Shudras themselves.)

Western Indologists

Western Indologists, of course, found a golden opportunity in the so-called Vedic caste system to dissuade Hindus from their foundations. They knew that most Indian intellectuals simply parrot what their white-Aakaas (Lords) utter, and that is what exactly is happening even till today. They had to do nothing great when foolish Hindus were still clinging to termite hill of casteism as their foundation despite all the slavery and downfall it had brought to them over last thousand years and even more. All British had to do was to propagate the garbage works on Vedas by their paid Indologists in lingua franca – English – and make it the predominant view on Vedas worldwide. After all, a false marketed smartly becomes a truth! Even a toilet cleaner advertised well becomes the drink of success!

We see that there were vested interests of all – the loser, the victor, the lawyer, the judge, and the neutral observer of drama – in ensuring that caste-system and the blame of its foundation in Vedas be continued and furthered.

But Agniveer cannot tolerate it

From time to time, few great men raised voices against this stupid caste system. Agniveer hails them as role models. But even they could not go to the root and question the very foundation of this hoax – ‘that Vedas sanction birth-based caste system.’ Their efforts only led to dissuasion of masses away from their own foundation – Vedas – and helped the enemy forces even more.

If someone calls your mother an indecent lady, you do not expel your mother. You instead explore the truth of the allegation, defend your mother if there is no such evidence and reject her only when there is conclusive evidence to contrary.

But those who can reject their mother at the very first hearsay are simply acting insane. What other adjectives can be used for them is left to readers. However, the crux is that Vedas are a mother for entire humanity – the first source of knowledge and wisdom and direction like mother’s milk. Those who neglect the mother or abuse her without any logical basis are bound to perish!

The humanity is facing troubles today because it neglected the mother. And we, the natives of this subcontinent, suffer even more ignominy and ironies and tragedies and problems because we were closest to the mother in recent history and yet chose to neglect her, or even malign her. We truly deserved greater punishments, and we rightly received them!

However, there are no surprises that we as foolish Hindus act so insane. After all, we derive our inspiration from fake and bogus stories from dubious texts that glamorize Sita’s exile by Rama and Harishchandra selling his wife! Even God can help only those who desire to help themselves!

And that is exactly why legends like Swami Dayanand and their progeny like Agniveer stand so strongly in defense of Vedas. Even if all other children of the mother choose to harm her or neglect her out of intent or foolishness, that does not grant each of us an automatic divine approval to neglect her and act even more foolish. The Law of Karma never spares anyone.

Note that the above is not an emotional hyperbole. Because such views, if understood without depth, may lead to blinded fanaticism. Someone may call Quran or Bible his mother and become defensive; other may consider Somalian piracy as its mother and become aggressive and so on. This would lead only to fanaticism.

On the contrary, the above is a well-analyzed viewpoint emanating because of a reasoning process. And we are very clear that if Vedas indeed are a source of anything illogical, we shall reject even the Vedas in the same manner as one amputates his own limb if having gangrene.

However, still one popular issue remains to be explained to complete the puzzle. This issue is about one particular verse of Vedas appearing in Purush Sukta that is considered the mother of the birth-based caste system. Purush Sukta is perhaps the ONLY alleged reference to the caste system in Vedas. All others allegations are too weak to be taken seriously even by detractors of Vedas. However, this one, though equally flimsy, surprisingly became a super hit just like many stupid Bollywood movies!

It does merit some special attention.

What is Purush Sukta?

Purush Sukta is a hymn of 16 mantras from Vedas that appears in all four Vedas with slight variations. More PhDs have perhaps happened on Purush Sukta than on any other intellectual aspect of Vedas. The 11th mantra of the Sukta is the one that carries the blame of birth-based caste system.

To explain the mantra and conduct their PhDs, scholars have used a variety of approaches.

• Some simply translated it literally.
• Some used their grammar prowess to justify caste system.
• Others (primarily those inspired by Arya Samaj) use the same prowess to reject it.
• Many other conclude that Purush Sukta is a later addition to Vedas because it is found in the last Mandala of Rigveda. In fact, they claim that the entire last Mandala of Rigveda is a later addition simply because they suspect so! Perhaps the ghost of Shah Jahan lives in Red Fort because I suspect so!

(It’s a different matter that they cannot explain why no version of Vedas without this 10th Mandala exists or how Purush Sukta is then found in other Vedas as well, not necessarily at end?)

(Sometimes we do feel that lack of scientific education has spoiled the entire world. Most people are leading opinions in areas like history, literature, and media, are those who were more scared of science and mathematics than ghosts were. Be it a Romila Thapar, or Wendy Doniger, or Max Muller or anyone else you may name. Destiny did not give them the opportunity to master the scientific process of thinking and analytical faculty.

We are of firm opinion that we need thoroughly scientific and analytical brains in these fields if we are to save our education system. An aptitude and reasoning test should be MUST.)

About Casteism in Purush Sukta

Coming back to the Purush Sukta, there is Mantra number 11 who is the culprit.

Mantra literally says:

“Brahmin was his mouth. Kshatriyas were created from his arms. Vaishyas came from thighs and Shudras were born from his feet.”

Shudras are lowly people born from his feet and Brahmins are greatest ones born from his mouth. Hence, the mantra is alleged to insult Shudras and glorify Brahmins. Kshatriyas and Vaishyas are somewhere in between.

As we said earlier, you can find a plethora of literature that critically analyzes this mantra and provides a wide amount of perspectives. Many explain in greater detail how this mantra led to modern day caste system through a chain of events and thought process.

Others try to prove that the mantra is interpolation because no other mantra in Vedas can be used to justify caste-system. As we observed earlier, we are always too eager to drive out the mother so as not to offend any allegation-maker!

More sincere defenders of Vedas attempt to provide alternative meanings of the various words used in the mantra to justify why it does not talk of birth-based casteism. They showcase evidence from other literature on the alternative usages of these words and attempt to defend the allegations.

To my mind, even this is a fruitless exercise beyond a point, because Vedas are much more to do with analysis and introspection and very less to do with grammar and etymology. After all, language was derived from Vedas and not vice-versa.

(Swami Dayanand laid great emphasis on analytical reasoning. In his proposed educational curriculum, only first few years of educations, when the intellectual faculty is limited, were dedicated to mugging up the basics. And rest of it was primarily focused on developing the analytical and introspective faculty. Unfortunately, modern Vedic scholars – including from Arya Samaj (the sect of his followers) spent years in only grammar and neglect science and maths completely. Their analytical reasoning is hopelessly limited, and they are unable to derive new insights and research from Vedas. Like other Arts subject, research in these fields primarily implies inconsequential literature survey (Which may soon become obsolete due to advent of search engine technology and digitization!))

Analysis of the casteist mantra of Purush Sukta

Coming back to the main line of discussion let us now analyze it deeper but a bit logically. Let us reproduce the meaning again for readability and make some points for those who see caste-based discrimination in this beautiful mantra:

Brahmin was his mouth. Kshatriyas were created from his arms. Vaishyas came from thighs and Shudras were born from his feet.

• How does the mantra imply that Brahmins are superior, and Shudras are inferior? In fact, if the literal meaning of the mantra is true, then Brahmins are the most disgusting and Shudras much purer because vomit and sputum come from the mouth. After urine and stool, they are the most detestable outputs of the human body.

If a cherry falls on feet, you can still pick it up and eat it after washing. In fact, most of the grains we eat may have touched ground or feet in some way or other. But if it gets into someone’s mouth and mixes with his saliva or sputum, you will not eat it for sure even after washing!

• How can something be born from feet, thighs, mouth or arms? Even for a human being, the organs for reproduction are different. It is thus obvious that the mantra actually means something else. Foolish people take allegories literally.

By this logic, if a son is ‘Aankhon ka tara’ or Gem of the Eyes of his mother, it would imply that he resides in the form of a star within an eye of his mother! Perhaps we would send to asylum who take such similes literally.

• The same modern ‘orthodox’ Hindu ideology also believes in the rebirth of the soul. In fact, the very foundation of Vedic religion and all its offshoots is a belief in the rebirth of a soul that is unborn and undying. The questions are:

• How could ‘unborn’ soul be born from something? And if it is true, then rest of the Vedas and Vedic literature is false.

• What happens after we die? Now it is an established belief that one can change from Brahmin to Shudra etc. in next birth depending upon Karmas or actions. In fact, this is the lollypop that bigoted ‘Upper Castes’ offer to so-called Shudras – serve us for this birth and then become Brahmin in next birth.

If migration of caste is possible in next birth, we would like to understand the mechanism. Is it that after death, the soul goes back to Purusha’s feet or mouth or arm or thighs, transfer via the blood circulation system to next organ and take birth again?

• And what about animals and insects and birds? From where are they born and how do they change into Brahmin? Does it not all sound stupid if literal translation were to be taken seriously?

• And in any case, the Vedic Supreme Lord is always formless and omnipresent. How can He have a face, arms, and legs in first place? Yajurveda 40.8 states so in unambiguous terms.

• Further, even if we assume Supreme Lord to have shape and be able to reproduce from His various organs except the one that is used in humans for this purpose, how does that imply birth-based caste system? How can one conclude from this mantra that Brahmins will take birth in a family of Brahmins alone and Shudras in a family of Shudras? As per literal meaning of the mantra, Brahmins, Vaishyas, Kshatriyas and Shudras should take birth ‘directly’ from the body of Supreme. If we take this literal meaning of mantra as truth, then someone takes birth from the womb of a mortal woman and NOT directly from God Himself can be none of the four Varnas. They are someone else!

• What more, the mantra is in past tense. At best one can conclude that Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, and Shudras were born from various organs of a queerly formed Purusha at the inception of creation. But none of them survive till today. The Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras of today are born hardly a few decades ago. But as per literal meaning of mantra, the birth has already happened. It does not say that God continues to run a factory for future production.
Further, none of the modern human beings actually came from anywhere except mother’s womb. None of these modern claimants of Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra are genuine claimants of any caste. They all are fake claimants.
• Had someone taken birth from some woman’s mouth, we could have still have pretended to act superstitious and assert that “Since the mother is Supreme God, the newborn is a Brahmin.” But still, the condition of birth from the mouth, hands, legs or thighs ALONE constitutes a valid birth to qualify to be called either of Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya or Shudra. Rest of us, normal mortal humans beings, who originate from the womb of our mothers and not from hands, legs, or mouth, are perhaps aliens from outer universe controlled by some other God as per literal meaning of the verse!

• Since all births on planet earth happen ONLY from mothers, if we are to exist (which we all do!) then all women who give birth should be God themselves as per the mantra. And all men should be something other than either of four Varnas. We have no objection to people respecting all women as God. But at the same time, all men should be anything but humans since they did not come from the mouth, arms or legs of any woman.

Very clearly, the mantra makes no sense if one were to take it literally.

What is a pity that such a level of nonsense held sway over us for centuries, made us harassed paupers, and yet we refuse to get rid of the nonsense!

Intuitive and obvious meaning of the mantra

However, if the mantra is analyzed in the context of rest of the mantras and more intelligently, then definitely there is a whole branch of knowledge about the creation can be researched from the Sukta.

Readers can review the Chapter on Creation (Srishtividyavishay) in Introduction of Vedas (Rigvedadibhashyabhumika) by Swami Dayanand for a more logical and detailed contextual analysis.

However, an intuitive understanding of the mantra is very simple even for a layman if we are willing to remove the glasses of prejudice and mindset. It exactly means what all translators have stated:

Brahmin was his mouth. Kshatriya was created from his arms. Vaishyas came from thighs and Shudras were born from his feet.

The only issue is that Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra do not refer to any souls or humans.

They refer to Varnas or properties that can be chosen.

And ‘He’ refers to not only the Supreme Lord as a whole but any self-sustaining ecosystem – be it society, organization, individual or universe. After all, everything is inspired by the Supreme Lord!

The mantra means that any self-sustaining ecosystem necessarily consists of four Varnas or properties or qualities or components – Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Shudra. Brahmin means intellect and knowledge. Kshatriya means strength and valor. Vaishya means management, balance, and stability. Shudra means rest of the qualities including ignorance.

A smart system would utilize the four components in most optimized manner.

A successful society would have intellectuals or Brahmins as head, Warriors or Kshatriyas as protecting hands, Vaishyas or business managers as stability providers or bone marrow producers (femur or thigh bone is the strongest bone of body) and rest of population would be utilized to provide support and basic infrastructure for the society.

A successful company would also organize itself accordingly.

The Supreme also creates the universe in a manner that these four components are balanced.

As human beings, even we have all these four within us. But as they are Varnas (choice) we have the option to increase or decrease their magnitude in various aspects of our lives. Note that there is, however, no binary choice of either having or rejecting a property. All the four must exist, only their proportions may vary.

Our brain represents the Brahmin, which should be nurtured to the extent possible. We should have strong arms to protect ourselves. We should have a very healthy body and good blood circulation to ensure our longevity. Also, we should have powerful feet to be dynamic.

There is no human who does not have any of these components or properties within him. And there is no meaningful activity that can be performed in the absence of all these four. After all, we are a complete being and not parts.

Even when we are studying Vedas, We use the
• Brahmin to understand the essence of Vedas
• Kshatriya to ensure we can study peacefully and not be disturbed by every other mosquito or nuisance.
• Vaishya to manage the procurement of Vedic text and lamp.
• Shudra to actually sit down, switch on the lamp and perform all manual tasks necessary to complete the study successfully.

If even one of the Varnas is ignored, the task may not be successfully and sustainably completed.

Buddhism focused only on Brahmin (intellect) and hence perished in Afghanistan to attacks from West Asian looters. Wahabis got exclusively into warfare and made the world a dangerous place. Hindus became too much of managers/Vaishyas or Jugaadbaaz and lost their strength and dignity. Islamic countries like Pakistan made Shudras out of its population by neglecting education and training, and now it is nearing a failed state due to the dominance of barbarians.

In society, we, for the sake of simplicity, call a person Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya or Shudra based on his predominant profession. However, this is only a simplistic approximation. In reality, each of us has a Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra within us or else we would not be able to survive even for a while.

You can clearly see that with this very logical interpretation, the entire Varna system as well as the mantra becomes so comprehensible and easy to understand. Of course, with further introspection and analysis including the study of language, we can derive even deeper meanings from this vastly intellectual mantra from one of the most wonderful Suktas of Vedas.

Summary
The broad essence is obvious and intuitive if observed without any baggage of post-dated bias and preconceived notions.

• That the particular mantra is not to be taken literally but as symbolism.

• That Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Shudra represent four properties that pervade all human beings. These four properties are Varnas or choices.

• That means that we have a choice to increase or decrease their magnitude in various aspects of our lives.

• That the four organs of body – head/face/mouth, arms, thighs, and legs – represent the qualities of the four Varnas. If we consider the broader meaning of Uru used for Vaishya, it implies the entire central system – digestive system to thighs. In fact, in Atharvaveda version of the mantra, the word Madhya meaning center is used instead of Uru to clarify this better.

• Any ecosystem that provides appropriate roles & responsibilities to these four properties or people representing these properties is bound to be successful – be it an individual or society. Those who try to use feet for head or vice versa are bound to perish.

And that is what exactly happened through birth-based caste system. Even the dumbest witted were made ‘heads’ or ‘face’ of society merely because they were born in certain families that claimed to be Brahmins. The weaklings were warriors because of the family tag. And the most brilliant were forced to be in servile positions simply because they were born in some other set of families. As a result, we invited our own destruction!

However, we clearly see that by any stretch of the sane imagination, one can no way interpret the Purush Sukta mantra to have any meaning even remotely associated with the birth-based caste system. Vedas stand for complete meritocracy and equal opportunities for all human beings.

All these PhDs who are trying to prove or disprove casteism in Purush Sukta mantra 11 are completely irrelevant. They only reemphasize the need for quality aptitude training and examination of those who indulge in such researches. And speak volumes about intellectual capabilities with regards to analysis and logic of those so-called scholars who conducted such research in past.

We have also analyzed in other parts of this book, that the entire hoax of Vedas having to do anything with racism or casteism or discrimination in the name of gender or birth is a figment of the imagination of selected few. It is true that for quite a significant period in history, such perverted ideology held sway over the sub-continent causing utter loss to world and country. However, events do not justify themselves merely by their happenings. Just because something stupid happened in the era of Ashoka or even Ramayan and Mahabharat does not make that justifiable.

(There is a misplaced notion that ancient India was Vedic and now we are non-Vedic. There is a misplaced notion that Western world is anti-Vedic and we are more Vedic. All these notions emanate from shallow thinking. Vedas represent the best practices manual and fundamental laws of nature and living. There was never a time when all best practices of Vedas implemented with 100% perfection, and there was never a time when a society completely rejected Vedas. All this varies from time to time in different aspects of life. We benefit when we adopt Vedic wisdom in certain aspects of our lives and face miseries when we refuse to do so in some other aspects. We are far more Vedic in certain aspects compared to Ramayan and Mahabharat era. In certain aspects, we lag behind. Similarly, the Western world is far more Vedic in certain aspects of life like respect for all humans, while we are ahead in some other aspects like family values. This is a multivariate highly non-linear and dynamic function. But Vedas provide us way to attempt to maximize the value of the function at any given point in time.)

Citing examples from history or present era to claim something to be Vedic or anti-Vedic is as foolish as rejecting Vedas. We do not reject the concept of a circle in Mathematics simply because a perfect circle cannot be drawn in reality!

All we need to do is to seek opportunities for improvements in the true spirit of Vedas. That is what ideals are meant for.

Now, this caste system has been an anti-Vedic nuisance troubling us for ages. It has been a prime cause of all other troubles we faced and continued to face since last thousands of years. However, today is the most golden opportunity to destroy its very roots and become deserving of greater bliss.

The modern era social patterns make it totally outdated to classify a person simplistically into any one of the four Varnas. It is the time we adopt a more evolved model – where each human has all the four Varnas whose proportion vary in different aspects of life at different times in different situations.

And the foundation, as well as inspiration for it, should rightly come from our roots – the Vedas themselves. Let us together destroy the myth of caste system in Vedas and take it further to destroy all traces of birth-based caste system from our society as guided by Purush Sukta.

Conclusion

We conclude with our interpretation of Purush Sukta mantra 11 in nation’s perspective, as elaborated above:

May only the intellectuals be allowed to become face and heads of our nation.

May only the strong, powerful and possessors of noble character be the strong hands that protect and bring us glory through efforts.

May the smart, trained managers guide our entire processes and ensure a vibrant, healthy effective control mechanism. And may we utilize the rest of us to provide foundation and service to keep the system dynamic and powerful.

May we never allow non-intellectual minds to become heads, weaklings to become hands, untrained incompetents to manage the central control system and waste our talented resources in doing less productive activities.

Let us never allow mismatch of talents and job role on frivolous reasons like birth, family, favoritism, or corruption.

Let no profession – material or spiritual – become fiefdoms of selected few on the basis of any artificial barrier like caste or gender. And if there be any such existing barriers, let us destroy them completely to embrace the Purush Sukta!

The caste system is the father of all corruption.

Let us work for its total annihilation of it, in theory, and in practice.

There is no other way!

Vedas totally reject Caste System

The reality of caste system – 1 The reality of caste system – 2
Sanjeev Newar
Sanjeev Newarhttps://sanjeevnewar.com
Sanjeev Newar is an eminent data scientist, entrepreneur, best-selling author, and speaker with expertise in Vedas and Sanskrit. He is an alumnus of IIT Guwahati and IIM Calcutta. He quit the corporate world to work for social inclusion and the protection of the vulnerable. For his work on Dalit inclusion and empowerment, he received the Neelkantha Award in 2019. He founded the Sewa Nyaya Utthan Foundation to make quality education accessible to vulnerable groups and marginalised communities.

237 COMMENTS

  1. @truth seaker, i am answering in the form of question. There r 2 qstn ans me- 1, as 10 to the power 2 is 100, then 10 to the power 2523645868642565842 thousand million is what? Can u imagine it, 2- is, if i say one draw a line or imagine a line which one point in dlhi nd second line at infinite. Can u imagine that line. Our mind has limit. Also i say that “apke sir pe eik neta ka hath h” so is there any hand in reality on ur head. Can u tel me the meaning of hand in this saying. If u can tel these thing than u understand that Allah is formles or formful by quran.

    • Just explain to me this when the quran clearly mentions that your beloved allah sits on a throne under which is the Loh e mahfooz, how can that used in a metaphorical or symbolic sense.

      Coming to your “netaji’s hand” instance, there indeed exists a neta with a hand, you are definitely not alluding to a neta without a hand, I believe.

      • @faizi
        If I worship an idol of Allah in which Idol of Allah has shown sitting on a comfortable stone & there is book also(Loha Mahfooj) under the throne. I know Idol is not real Allah but it is just direction for me to worship the Allah. Will I be considered Idolator?

  2. Good article that talks the truth but just one disappointment. Gandhiji, being a normal human being and not a well trained/educated yogi could with the war with his will, might have done many mistakes during his time. But his strong belief not to hurt anyone and focus on freedom of people, I felt here, must have been given good respect by calling his name. Keeping one’s head cool even after being physically assaulted shows the power of his will – that conquered not just his/state’s enemy’s heart but all people around the world. I believe, he knew that even the so called ‘enemies’ are the souls from same ‘source’.

    Also a kind request if you could publish the English translation of Rig-veda.

    Thanks
    Adi

  3. i hv read quran many times. I said already that i am giving answer but first u shw ur mental range, can u imagine that line or can u imagine that number which i asked?

  4. @faizi
    I am also asking you very simple questions before get into debate with you.
    1. Which is eternal kalama of Allah? Answer me if you have read Kuran.
    2. Why I should believe Allah was sitting idly before this universe creation?
    3. Do you think after reading Kuran “Allah is perfect”. Can perfect be changed or Perfect is changeable?
    4. If I bow head towards shiva idol, it is just direction for me. Will I be considered as Idolator? & If yes, Why?
    5. What is the meaning of Allah sits on a comfortable throne on 7th sky & under his throne a book named Loha Mahfooj has been kept.

  5. truth siker, my communist friend asked me that can Allah do everything? If i say yes then he asked can Allah make any thing which He cant destroy? Is there in any answer of this question? If i say yes then i m wrong or i say no then i m wrong? Allah explain in whole quran that Allah has no image. U r picking such verses for which first u hv to answer that question . Cn u imagine that number? Ur mind hs such capability? If yes then i cn answer easily otherwise i wil answer but it wil b long. First tel me ur mental capabality.

  6. @faizi
    I suggest you answer to give your friend. Tell him if he thinks Everything means any moral & immoral act or any stupid activity. Then say him No. Allah can not do everything in this sense. Allah can not kill himself/herself. Allah never sits idly before/after this universe creation, there is nothing old and new for eternally exist entity. Allah can not punish eternally to his children. Allah can not change himself. Allah is perfect & unchangeable. Allah Can not make a stone which too heavy to be lifted even by Allah. Allah can not make me/you Allah. Allah can not be depend on virgins to give pleasure to his follower. Allah can not be worship desires. Allah can not destroy soul. If you have doubts ask again.

  7. truth siker, i m nt asking what shuld i tel to my comunist frnd. I m asking u d question bt u r nt answering? Cn u imagine the vastness of this universe? We knw Allah has no image, laisa kamisli shai, there is nothing similar to him. If there is nothing similar then how cn anybody compare wid anything? Our mind has limits Allah has nt limits.

  8. @faizi
    Do you think if my mind limit or finite, I may start dreaming. I will start to think Allah is just limited to a throne on 7th sky. Allah depends on a throne to sit. Allah does not like to stand much. Allah depends on angles to give revelation to Mohamad & he by his own powers can not fill the heart with knowledge to his devotee. or getting or realizing Allah is not bliss but bliss comes from sex with virgins. Allah is not blissful but blissful are virgins. Are these your vast imaginations?

      • you are saying right, Islam means peace. But how is jehad is not the part of Islam, In which allah has said it clearly that seaze and kill non- Muslims. If you be leave that their was nothing in the binging. It means he create everything from his hands. when he mad everything then,All made by allah should be halal.Then how pig becomes haram. and if Allah created haram sects then he is guilty. Why he created such animals. Do you accept that it was his mistake. If it was his mistake then he is like human. Because what i be leave Man can do mistake but Allah can not do any mistake.

      • manniy shri vijayji dekhe quran 8/65-66 jisme qurani allah kahate hai ki he! muhammad ! tum muslimo ko “jehad ” ke liye ubharo agar 20 muslim isme jame rahe to vah 200 [gair muslimo ] par “prbhavi ” honge![ 66] kurani allah kahate hai hamko maloom hua ki muslimo me abhi “kuch” kamjori hai oisliyeunka bojh halka kar diya gaya hai! ab 100 muslim 200 [gair muslimo] par prbhavi honge ? abjara sochiye ki Qurani allah ek ayat pahale nahijamn paye ki muslim jehad me bahut kamjor rahenge pahale 20 musloim 200 par prbhaavi hone ki bat karte the abvah 100 muslim200 gair muslimo par prvbhavi hone ki bat karne lage ! isklam ek shantoivala majahabnahi balki nakli[feke] majahab kaha ja sakta hai vastavme yahek rajnaitik andolan hao n ki dham ? dharm kahane dharm ka hi apman hota hai ! dharm kya hai? kya ram ji shri krishn ji hanuman ji isa, musa, muhammad adi ko manna dharm kah jayega ?dharm ke lakshan manusmriti 6/92 me kaha gaya hai vah gun vachak hai , dhyaryvan,kshama karne vala , apne indriyo ko ankush me rakhne vala ,cho ri n karne vala apni buri adto ka daman karne vala vidyavan, svadhyaykarne vala , saty acharan karne vala aur krodh n karnevala hi dharmik kaha ja sakta hai anyaur koi nahi hai !

  9. truth sicker, U cn never undrstand, u read whole quran u cn find every answer. Allah said Allah dnt need anyone to do anything, kun faya koon- Allah say be as it is nd it is done. As far as angles r concern Allah dnt need them but is way how He is taking work. Like a king has workers it dsnt mean king cant do that work. U r such a sick mind persons that u dnt read quran instead u read from anti islamic sites, u always say koran never say quran u truth sicker. I am very wid happy this site it providing a platform for others to undrstand islam, u cn read cmnts ppls r coming nd saying agni i am going to acpt islam, u plan Allah plan Allah is the best plannar.

    • Faizi, probably quran will suffice for half-wits like you, typical jehadi mindset.

      Tell me why does your allah need to create Satan and the nonbelievers. He could have instead created a perfect world with only momins.

      • SDC ur answer has been given in quran, u can read directly. Allah said this world is for test, an exam, we have choice. we can accept or deny, we can work for jannat or dosakh. u cant understand if Allah forcefully make human muslim(ita’t guzar, submitting his will) like other creature than their is no reward like no reward to animals or trees or moon. ok hope u understand

      • You are stupid. There is no test or anything. Why all of a sudden does Allah need to create a weird test for non-existent souls by creating a non-existent universe? Not only this, but your Allah creates IMMENSE confusion in the minds of these souls once he has created them out of nothing. Why not preserve the FIRST book he sent to Adam/Eve. Why does he only protect the Quran and not the Bible?

      • do u kknow anything about bible there are old nd new testament. u dnt know anything u just play wid words. do u know anything about old nd new testament.is bible alone is sufficient. hahahah

      • Just tell me this what evil did trees, animals, and non-living things do, that they will not get a place in jannat? Why were they created in the first place?

        And why was I not born as a muslim in the first place? Why were you privileged enough to be born a muslim? Why this step-motherly treatment towards us non-muslims? Why is allah being partial?

        Also, why only 1 chance to enter jannat? You chose not to reply.

  10. I love how Muslims start spouting nonsense about formlessness of Allah. When Advaita talks about Nirguna Brahman via “Neti-Neti” it is a description of pure consciousness. Brahman doesnt have any unfulfilled wish that it needs to test some poor souls. It just is. Dvaita talks of a personal Brahman which creates the world using Prakriti for souls to attain moksha.

    Muslim philosophy [that is an oxymoron] simply requires you to believe Allah can just create the universe out of nothing. If you Momins can believe that why dont you believe that Allah can kill himself? Muslims usually say this question is not allowed, but apparently they arent bothered by an Allah that can create things out of thin air! Not only do you have to believe this, you have to believe Allah needed 7 (or is it 8? depends on how you translate the Arabic word “Thumma” 🙂 ) days to create the universe…You further have to believe Adam and Eve were created out of dust and so on and so forth. You need to believe ALL this LITERALLY to be a Muslim. Ali Sina did a video about how the big bang and creationism as per Bible/Quran are mutually contradictory. Muslims can never learn 🙁

    • kal u cant never learn because u dont want to learn. dr. israr said that u cant prove GOd by logic, for every logic there is an answer nd u will always woder for truth. quran say”This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them,”(2;2-3) u have to belive in Allah in unseen IN jannat dozakh, than u can be benifited by quran. ther is evey solution but first u have to belive. quran is Allah words, there are several points that i can prove that quran is Allah word, one is quran is protected, there are millions of hafiz(who pmemorized whole quran by heart). according to aryasamaj u have go to another yoni nd islam is giving u all the solution of life then what is the problem in believing in unseen. i am a student of science whenever study deeply any subject my faith increases on Allah. u just read ur hormonal system, ur eyes, u just read water cycle, u’ill say there is creator. i can give u heap of contradictions in veda, u just tell me approved translation link of veda on web. ther is no contradiction in quran

      • @faizi:

        Watch the following video and see how you guys laughably try to prove the “truth” in the Quran.

        I personally am myself trying to get a good English commentary the Vedas. I will definitely let you know when my search is satisfactory. But why do you want to prove the contradictions in the Vedas? Is it that there are contradictions in Quran so you will be more happy if you are able to “pull” the Vedas down?

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2aaM73CRBI

      • You are a student of science and you say “Dr. israr said that u cant prove GOd by logic”. So, you being a student of science would like to follow something that is bereft of logic. Now, this is really paradoxical because science itself stands on logic.

      • really brother hahah, can you tell me logically everything should either expand or shrunk on cooling? if we cool water and iron what will happen?? hahahahahha ur logic ?

      • I am still to grasp the purport of your question. A phenomenon has to be observed, documented, experimented on, and then conclusions drawn. If in case you are referring to the behavior of matter under different conditions or of different matter reacting differently under the same set of conditions, so, what is it that you are trying to say?

        Logic is the ability to think through a problem systematically. Science was born of logic.

  11. @faizi
    ________kun faya koon- Allah say be as it is nd it is done___________
    To whome Allah said this? If all doer is Allah to whom Allah is addressing here & can without addressing Kun Faya Koon, Allah can do? Why Allah need to speak. Is he talking with himself?
    _____As far as angles r concern Allah dnt need them but is way how He is taking work____
    Who is entitled to be angles? What are good deed angles had done that Allah made them angles.
    ______Like a king has workers it dsnt mean king cant do that work_______
    Wordily king need to speak to do something. But king of all God never need to speak anything & things just happened as he/she do wish. ( I say roughly here).

    • truth sickerrrr, u r not trying to understand, please read quran first. Allah is saying to that thing that be as it is, like ther was no pen but Allah saying to that pen be as it is nd ther is pen. hope u (DONT)understand.

      • o mr faizi….

        see you yourself said…

        ————ther was no pen———-

        and you said
        ————– Allah saying to that pen———

        when there is no pen then how can allah say to the pen??
        when the pen is not yet created how can it be ordered????

        lol!! silly quran!! 😀

  12. truth sicker or any body i m unable to find veda translation in english or hindi by aryasamaji on web, u can find many translation of quran on web on all big lang. u go first translate nd add it on web or tell me site

    • Faizi,

      Now that you are shouting so much on Vedas being bad and Quran being best and then demanding translations, I challenge you to provide a sensible English translation of Quran. You claim that internet has many translations on Quran. Tell me which one is the correct one and not a bogus translation. Get me a statement from some Islamic authority that recommends a particular translation in English and then we can debate ahead.

      First do that and then talk about Vedas. Because Vedas do not demand blind belief in unseen. On contrary it recommends that even if you find a truth illogical because of your bird brain, better reject that truth and focus on increasing the neural connections within your bird brain so that it becomes a bigger bird brain. This is difficult to understand for minds that only mug up without analysis.

      But better give reference to an authoritative English translation of Quran first.

      Also what are your views on translations of Pickthall, Dawood and tafseer of Jalalyn or Sahih Bukhari/ Muslim of Muhsin Khan as found on internet in all leading Islamic sites? Are they bogus. If yes, instead of wasting time here, raise a movement against banning of these texts. If no, let us debate based on these texts.

      Raja

  13. kal bhairav; u dont understand so simple thing that if quran is protested then u r saying y bibble is not protected. u chew ur fingr but quran is protected because protection is from ALLAH. u intellegent arya samaji is their any person here who memorized whole veda. u talk veda veda. kal, truth, have u memorized all four veda. i know u even can nt read whole veda wid translation only once, any body try to read his brain start aching what a contradictory book that is. what they r trying to say? from veda u can prove pandit shudra by birth, from same veda pandit shudra by karma,’lol’in quran so simple verses AYATUN MOHKAMATUN- u dont read, ayat related to karm, very simple clear cut. concept of jannat dozakh clear cut. but u want confusion for u in QURAN ALLAH SAID”And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful.But if you do not – and you will never be able to – then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.(2:13-14)”. IF U READ quran in arabi then u will know what the standard nd beauty of quran is. heart filled with joy which cant be explained by words on can be feel. Hope ALLAH give u hidayat to feel that joy in ur heart.

      • Please solve that challenge and if you cannot convert to a Mormon Christian. Game?
        (2)There are so many contradictions in the Quran. See the link I posted before. Be careful about visiting http://www.youtube.com/user/TheRationalizer and watching his videos. He is an ex-Muslim and after watching his videos many Muslims have converted OUT of Islam.
        (3)Adam/Eve story is bogus. So, Judaism/Xity/Islam all crumble down. Islam crucially depends on Adam/Eve story being true. So, to be a Muslim, YOU HAVE to hope against hope that science doesnt crack the Adam/Eve story.
        (4)If the Quran said it is ok to kill children born on Saturday, would you do it or would you TEST it with outside logic/rationality to see if what it says make sense?

  14. kal, rationaly u r bogus, al answer hv been given regarding linguistic erors. It is nt the problem of quran bt it is problem ur mind. So simple u dnt knw arabi how cud u undrstand refutation. Either u learn arabi or rely upon quran lovers. A quran hater teling u linguistic nd u dnt knw arabi then what wil happen? He cn make u fool easily. Secndly haha secndly cn ur faith yonis stands on any science or logic. U r so inocent u dnt undrstand that y trees are dcreasing nd human r increasing. Acrding to last lif karm theory if sin r increasing then human shld dcrease.

    • @faizi:

      Please stop using sms language. Or are you using Voice to Text software?

      Thanks once again for simply dismissing my post as irrelevant without providing any reasons. That clearly settles the issues in your favour. Doesnt it? Well done.

    • JUST THINK OVER IT MR. FAIZI WHICH category HUMAnS ARE INCREASING???

      are rich and prosperous humans are increasing??
      no but only poverty stricken, backward, resource less , sick humans are increasing…

      say up healthy people increasing or decreasing?
      say up diseases increasing or decreasing?
      say up life span increasing or decreasing?
      say up tensions increasing or decreasing?
      say up problems in human life increasing or decreasing?

      lol!! now say … !
      dear mr faizi ,there are very less happy souls on earth why? because sin is increasing!
      it is infact the proof of past life theory!

  15. kal, if any person belive in day of judgment nd hel paradise then he becom a gud human nd change of yoni faith always make him bad human. If i hv chance in next yoni to attain moksha then i wil do whatever i like, i’l cheat, bribe nd i’l enjoy anyway. U cn believe in such things which make a pesrson bad, u cn believe ajeebo ghareeb veda, ful of myths. But cnt believe in true religion. If it is nt true stil it is making u a gud person. Say “ashhadu al lailaha ilallaha wa ash hadu anna mohammudar rasullulah” nd enter the society of peace of both life.

    • yea!! similarly as a student has a chance to appear again and again in exam….. but not all students are as sensible as mr. faizi.. to “do whatever i like, i’l cheat, bribe nd i’l enjoy anyway. “.. so

      i think you got my point!!
      did you?

      god is not a autocrat king… he is a teacher… he gives you chance again and again till you pass out i.e. attain moksha!!

      • yes in one yoni u bribe, other u cheat, in other u rape, in oyher u become hitler then moksha but can u imagine what will happen to this world? u will make make it hell, like u can see comments on dr. zakir naik post. your yoni believing person start abusing to prophets to Allah and so on?

      • “one yoni u bribe, other u cheat, in other u rape, in oyher u become hitler ——-”

        no you mr. faizi… listen.. in one birth you bribe.. you go far from moksha…
        in other birth you rape… you go still farer from moksha…
        then god will obviously punish you in a way maybe giving a physical impairment that the person is not able to become hitler in next birth .. hence like this god takes care that earth does not become hell!
        if someone still does more bad deeds he would put him in animal yoni . hence further limiting his capabilities to do any bad to someone!

        dont you understand this simple concept??

  16. kal what should i answer do u undrstand the dif between mursaleen nd mursalaoon. Y Allah said Inna fathna, if he is one. Bhai first u read arabi then u can undrstand.

    • @ Faiz:
      Why did Allah Create us????…. What was his motif behind creating Souls, Universe, Heaven and Hell???… What was Allah doing before he created Heaven, Hell, Universe, Angels and Souls??… one thing is for sure that Allah existed before Heaven, Hell, Universe, Angels and Souls.. Right??… now please tell me What was he doing before he created all this?? And after Judement Day.. that is .. after he has put all the Souls in Heaven and Hell according to their beliefs… what will he do next as he has nothing new to do???… Please explain from Quran and Hadiths (Sahih Galat whatever!)

      • go and read first 39 verses of surah baqarah surah number 2. u just put in google surah baqrah 1-39 and answer is their, quran is clear cut not like vedas. have you read all the vedas. i have asked mr. kal and truth seeker they dont replied..

      • @ faizi..
        Namaste Brother.. I started reading Surah Baqrah as you said.. but I came across a stumbling block in the very first Verse… it says “Alif lam Meem” … please brother tell me.. what does it mean.. so that i can move on to the Next verse

      • @ Faizi.
        Namaste Brother Faizi…Where are you Brother??? why are you not answering my Question???? you asked me to read chapter 2 from Quran, Surah Al-Baqarah from Verse 1 to 39… but I am not able to understand what the very first verse means.. Please tell what does it mean.. 1st verse only says Alif, laam, meem, ie ALM now what is that??? it also says that Nobody except Allah knows its meaning… if that is the case what was the need to reveal the Ayaah to Human beings?? Brother Faizi.. plz answer my question so that i Can move on to Verse No. 2.. because reading Quran without understanding is Shirk is it not??

  17. Manu eldest son [Priyavrata] became king, a Kshatriya. Out of his ten sons seven became kings while three became Brahman. Their names were Mahavira, Kavi and Savana. (Ref bhagwat puran chap.5)
    Kavash Ailush was born to a Sudra and attained the varna of a Rishi. He became mantra-drashta to numerous Vedic mantras in Rig-Veda 10th Mandal.
    Jabala’s son [Satyakama] born from unknown father became Rishi by his qualities.
    Matanga became a Rishi after his birth in low Varna.
    Fa Xian, a Buddhist pilgrim from China, visited India around 400 AD. “Only the lot of the Chandals he found unenviable; outcastes by reason of their degrading work as disposers of dead, they were universally shunned… But no other section of the population were notably disadvantaged, no other caste distinctions attracted comment from the Chinese pilgrim, and no oppressive caste ‘system’ drew forth his surprised censure.”. In this period kings of Sudra and Brahmin origin were as common as those of Kshatriya Varna (Hinduism) and caste system was not wholly prohibitive and repressive.
    However, British policies of divide and rule as well as enumeration of the population into rigid categories during the 10 year census contributed towards the hardening of caste identities.
    The government is carrying out caste census for 2011.[36] It will help in verifying the claims and counterclaims by various sections of the society about their actual numbers. It would also help the government to re-examine and even undo some of the policies which were formed in haste like Mandal commission and bring more objectivity to the policies with contemporary realities. Others fear that, given the huge constitutional incentives in the form of educational and job reservations, as well as non-existence of any social stigma at all associated with belonging to a backward caste, a large number of people will falsely declare themselves to be from a backward caste, to avail of the benefits. This will not only result in a marked inflation of the backward castes numbers, but…

  18. Agniveer Mahoday, I’ve been reading all comments by this “faizi” (real name farzi) as well as your team’s counter replies and have been noticing that while on one hand, he avoids answering even the most basic questions(while Agniveer panthis adeptly clear all of his meandering taqqiya), on the other hand he accuses Agniveer and co. of lies and hate and inability to answer his questions. Oh well, I guess you’ve dealt with even more advanced taqqiya than this farzi character called “faizi”. Also, great article!

  19. Agniveer Mahoday, what you’ve written about Gandhi, well, I fully concur with it!! He was a fake saint and a “duratma”, not a “mahatama”. In my opinion, Sardar Patel deserves to be the true father of the nation, as he was one who forged modern India. Here are a few links substantiating the true character of the racist Gandhi:-

    http://islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3500&Itemid=61

    http://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2011/03/gandhi-saint-or-sinner/

    And, here is my personal Youtube video on why Sardar Patel wanted the Partition so badly (remember, the only “allegation” on Sardar Sahib ever was that he was so desperate for getting the Parition done, and thus was chiefly responsible for the immense bloodshed that ensued). Well, all those arse-lickers of the Nehru-Gandhi feudal dynasty out there, hear this piece from a well-known Pakistani journalist Aftab Iqbal and judge for yourself the true caliber of the premier statesman of mother India and one of her most ardently faithful children:-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRK3zEcv5G8

  20. Even arabi peoples say others ajami which means gunga(dumb) who cant not speak arabi. There are four pronunciation of z in arabi. Isa alaihissalam has been given miracle in medicine field because that was the field which was on top that time and top doctors and discoveries wer coming. At prophet Muhammad s.a.w. time poetry and literature was on top so quran has been given. The peoples who call themselves arabi & others ajami even they don’t say that there are mistakes in quran what they say it is MAGIC.

    • @Faizi/ Other scholar
      Q Is Allah depend on angles or speaking to impart knowledge?
      Ans. No, Allah never depends on them. Veda is emanated directly from Allah and is originated in the heart of four rishis. Allah is Almighty i.e., So He needs no assistance to do universal deeds. In human body alive soul resides. And soul is dependent, soul requires mouth to speak, eye to see, hand to write etc., etc. but not Allah. So from His power Allah originates the knowledge of Vedas in the rishis(great souls) without writing, or speaking etc.
      faizi brother, Do you Agree?

  21. also kal g, no new quran is coming, read quran, every order in quran is helpful for human in this world nd hereafter. Because only creator know what is good for his creation. So regarding ur questiòn if we believe that it is from creator(there are so many ways to prove that quran is from Allah) then their is no need to analyse every order on logic. If it has been ordered that kil child born on saturday then yes every believer wil obey it(but for ur kind information there is no such order in quran, quran is from Allah, he is merciful). Tel me, do u follow veda after analysing it on logic nd science. Most important point is u and your friends hvnt read all veda once with translation, where is the time to analyse veda. I havent met any person( who is not pujari) and completely read any buk except geeta. There is only readable buk in hindus that is geeta.I always request hindus please read ur buks analyse them and read sanskrit. As u claim that vedas are most ancient buk then y peoples were believing in casteism by birth only (and stil believing),if ther was no casteism. Were they not reading veda or not analysing on logic until u came?

  22. truth seker brother i am talking to kal, and regarding ur question i am nt agree wid u. Quranic concept is Allah talked to Moses on this world on toor mountain nd gave him torah written on slates . Read quran for detail, just search on quran.com. And also Allah give quran to hazrat muhammad in 23 year period through jibrael alaihissalam(an angel). It is caled wahi(revelation). There are many ways of wahi, Allah can just wahi to any mesangers heart. For other guidance Allah time to time wahi many orders to prophet through angel or directly to prophet heart. Regarding rishis i dnt knw what is ur method to identify that what he is teling u (that it is from God) is right or wrong.

    • @faizi
      Why what u find illogical in my comment. Please counter me by one by one like this.
      Q Is Allah depend on angles or speaking to impart knowledge?
      _____-No, Allah never depends on them____
      Faizi write your argument :-
      _________-Allah is Almighty i.e., So He needs no assistance to do universal deeds. In human body alive soul resides. And soul is dependent, soul requires mouth to speak, eye to see, hand to write etc., etc. but not Allah. So from His power Allah originates the knowledge of Vedas in the rishis(great souls) without writing, or speaking etc.________

      Faizi Write your response……………

      http://agniveer.com/5276/vedas-caste-disrcimination/#comment-35632

      • @shravak:

        are we still entertaining this kid?

        I tuned off sometime ago. Its the same question, same non-answers all over again – day in and day out.

  23. haha, kal bhairav u have left because u urself said that i am searching a good english translation of veda??? You even not read all veda thoroughly and calling me kid? Ok uncle one sdc uncle was comenting on my comment that in one yoni we bribe Allah will give us another yoni then we cheat then Allah will give us another yoni and keep on changing yoni until we attain moksha. If according to u God wants u to attain moksha what ever u r doing maximum punishment is yoni change then y he needs to send u again and again, can he not give u moksha in one yoni only, who can ask Him? Kal uncle when i asked you that tel me question then u are saying i have left entertaining this kid, truth seker hs given u a website where u can read veda english translation, go and read first then tel me ok. Truth seker@ i hav told u what is the islamic faith regarding wahi, i dont want to talk u, i have seen ur way of talking, i hav already told u that u r not worthy to talk. So bye

    • @faizi
      hA………ha…ha………you. FOOL, even after reading Kuran you are bowing head before stone Kaba. Even after reading Kuran you are reciting human name in Allah prayer. Even after reading Kuran you believe Allah was sitting idol on his throne before this universe creation. Even after reading Kuran Muslim are killing their fellow brothers Ahamadiya & shiya etc in Pakistan, Irak, Afganistan etc. Even after reading of boys are joining terrorist group. Even after reading of Kuran muslim following rituals and superstitions like kissing the black stone & go around Kaba. Even after reading Kuran Muslim worshiping graves.

  24. Blessed is He in whose hand is dominion, and He is over all things competent –
    [He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed – and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving –
    [And] who created seven heavens in layers. You do not see in the creation of the Most Merciful any inconsistency. So return [your] vision [to the sky]; do you see any breaks?
    Then return [your] vision twice again. [Your] vision will return to you humbled while it is fatigued
    And We have certainly beautified the nearest heaven with stars and have made [from] them what is thrown at the devils and have prepared for them the punishment of the Blaze
    And for those who disbelieved in their Lord is the punishment of Hell, and wretched is the destination.
    When they are thrown into it, they hear from it a [dreadful] inhaling while it boils up
    It almost bursts with rage. Every time a company is thrown into it, its keepers ask them, “Did there not come to you a warner?”
    They will say,” Yes, a warner had come to us, but we denied and said, ‘ Allah has not sent down anything. You are not but in great error.’ ”
    And they will say, “If only we had been listening or reasoning, we would not be among the companions of the Blaze.” surah mulk surah no 67 verse 1-12

  25. @ mumbai, therd are more than 100 temples in my city and no dalit pujari i have seen. No single in whole city? No percentage even in points, flat zero. I dont want to become pandit or brahman, i want to show you true religion. Go and make dalit to brahman, they want to become brahman. I havnt seen all temples but i know what is the case. Have u seen all the temples??

    • LOL Faizi Miyan you are accusing hindus of caste system. WHEN AMBEDKAR HIMSELF HAS SAID THAT MUSLIM CASTE SYSTEM IS WORSE THAN HINDU CASTE SYSTEM. DALIT EQUIVALENT OF MUSLIM IS ARZAL MUSLIMS WHO ARE ALSO CALLED “DALIT MUSLIMS”. ASHRAFIS ARE HIGHER CASTE MUSLIMS. ARZAL MUSLIMS CONDITION ARE MORE PATHETIC THAN OTHER DALITS.

  26. @Faizi ” therd are more than 100 temples in my city and no dalit pujari i have seen”

    Are you kidding? How stupid do you think people are. Like you even know who are the priests in even one single temple.

    You claim to “know” without knowledge. Is that Muslim mentality? LMAO!

  27. Already the title of the article is non-sensical. It is as if you would proclaim that there is a discrimination between apples and mangos only because they have been born differently.

    Castes are natural. There is even a saying in English: Birds of the same feather flock together.

    Caste is not harmful. That is what makes a society: caste. Mango is one caste. Apple is one caste. Banana is one caste.

    The blaming of the Castes serves to many politicians as a cover for their own incapabilities to solve social problems.

    All the talk of “equality” is childish. Such a thing does not exist. Even in the USA – the champion of equality – it does not exist. Well, the americans do not want to be a shudra, so they do better jobs, and let the mexicans do the “lower jobs”. Of course, someone has to do them. But then, the Mexicans, because they illegally crossed the border, they sink even to the level of untouchibility. No insurance, no solidarity, anytime ready to be deported – yes, a caste system based on greed. The vedic system is based on birth.

    We want to eliminate all the different caste. Who can make and unmake? Nobody can make and unmake caste system. They are a natural phenomenon. The caste system is a natural phenomenon. People are different. The soul of all the people is the same. So something is different. Something is the same.

    Caste system is most systematic, it’s a system. It’s a system of society. Without caste there will be a hodgepodge. Nobody would know who is what. Caste system is everywhere. It’s a natural phenomenon. It’s a natural existence. It’s a natural thing.

    Those who do not know, they can say anything. Like a mad man, they can say anything. But what does it mean to any sensible man?

    Caste system – Eyes, ears, nose, tongue, touch, each is a caste by itself. And all the caste make a body, make a man, make a society, make a country.

    Those who want to disrupt the harmony, they come with all these slogans and disrupt the harmony, make the people confuse and all that. But…

    • @shaas:

      The point of the article and many of us posters here is that birth-based division into castes is meaningless. If a White American says he will not pick fruits because he is “white” and he will sit all day in the executive room in AC, while a “Brown” Mexican should alone pick fruits because he is “brown”, THAT is what this article is against. Sure, division of labour is a good idea, but no one can say that he is of “high” birth and hence will not do certain work because of caste, blood lineaage or skin colour. Thats the point.

  28. Dear Agniveer,
    Keep up the good work. Recently, I have come across an interview of Dr. Subrahmanian Swamy. Where he explains the caste system and its rise in Bhatrat(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHwzEnFoRmM). I believe the 11th sloka of Purusha sukta makes sense while explaining this logic.He(Dr. Swamy) explains that the entire caste system arose as a result of a conversation of two maharshis( I don’t remember their names), who were planning on creating an unbiased and balanced society. According to them the society demands 4 major services:-

    1 Education/Academic development
    2 Economic Development
    3 Military/Armed Development
    4 Social/Community Development.

    According to them no one can have a control of the other 3 as it may lead to a catastrophe. According to them:-
    One who can educate others is a “brahmin”. (Now it makes sense that he is born from the mouth of brahma)
    One who defends the society is “Kshatriya”. No wonder arms of brahma are a right place for a Kshatriya
    One who takes care of financial details is a “vaishya”. It is known that in olden days bhatathvanshis used to tie a wallet to their thighs(generally right thigh). Hence a vaishya is born from thigh of Brahma.
    One who works hard to build/construct the society is a “Shudra”. Hands and legs are equally important for any construction/maintenance work as arms are “occupied” by kshatriyas, legs/feet symbolize the Shudras.

    This looks to me as a good logical and philosophical explanation of the sloka. I am sure that you would agree that this classification holds good even today and any government which controls these categories isolated from each other is a good government.

    Finally, for those who still say that vedas support caste system, I have to say that Lord shiva lives in a burial ground, eats flesh. Maharshi valmiki born to a hunter turned into a brahmin. Maharshi Viswamitra was born to a king. Dronacharya, kripacharya, Ashwatthama though a brahmin, turned to a kshatriya in kurukshetra.

    Caste system is not based on birth but by karma.

    Regards,
    Gupteswar

    • well said dear. Similarly Vivekanand has explained it in “Rebuild India”. Mind represents Brahman, Arms the kshatriya, Abdomen the Vaishya and legs the Shudra. He further explains that in reality all the four varnas exist in every human being. When he learns/teaches or uses his brains, he is brahman. When he defends himself against any danger/atrocities, he is Kshatriya. When he earns for himself or family and engage in business/profession, he is Vaishya and he is shudra when he uses his legs for movement. Thus everyone of us is composed of all the four Varnas. In some, one is dominant and in others the other varna.

      Once Vivekand also said that It is unfortunate that most of Indiand don’t understand the depth of our culture and exhibit non-culture/non-religion in day today life in the name of culture/religion.

      I hope that the time has come now for sense to prevail.

  29. you have explained only 11 th slok of purushsukta but all other sloks are describing that various oragns of yatpurusha from which different things were created please give meaning of other slokas with present context

  30. you have explained meaning of 11th slok of purushsukta only. but other sloks from purushsukta describe the same creation of different things from yatpurusha’s organs. please give meaning of other slokas also in present context. otherwise the allegation of 11th slok will remain as it is

  31. Namakar to all my hindu brothers/sisters,,I think this is not caste system this is the duty of the man,vedas wants us to explain that a society or a country will run if these four duties are performed properly,but i think these things are imposed by brahmin just to escape from hard work,But as per hinduism we must reform,,even today many of us inspite of caste and creed serving in army,,many of us are doing bussiness and many of us are working as peons,cleaners,,I think these are only duties,,hope all our hindu brothers should evolve from this,,but the worst is our corrupt government will never let us evolve for there personal gains hope we win with the help of agniveer,,agniveer please keep your hard,I am working in afghanistan,i am living with muslims here,i dont know about zakir naik,,but because of him people started disrespecting hinduism,he is a real threat,,his videos are shown everyday here in many tv channels,and people are taking him as an example and telling me to convert,,but thanks to bhagwan he showed light in the darkness i did research on my sanatana dharma hinduism,We have to wake all our hindu brothers because western media and seculars,and islamic people wants to destroy us by islamization and christianization,,so please protect us mainly the women/girls by showing them the path,,I am with u,i will visit personally when i will come to delhi,,Dhanyawad

    • Goodpost Sanmukh,

      We as humble foot soldiers are spreading the faith to our brothers and sisters, have spirit, have courage, have humbleness, have Karma Yoga as a guide, Lord Krishna:
      Again in the Bhagawad Gita, sloka 29, Chapter 9, Lord Krishna says,

      “I look upon all creatures equally; none are less dear to me and none more dear. But those who worship me with love live in me, and I come to life in them.”

  32. Lord Vishnu’s foot is considered to be the MOOOOOOST HOLY AND PURE thing in the entire world (nothing else anywhere is purer or holier than Lord Vishnu’s shri-charan). How can something created out of it be impure or bad?

  33. Namaste Agniveer and community. If position in the society is not a birth right how come most of the kings of aaryavarta from before Dasaratha to Rama and also Bharata to the Pandavas and the Yadavas , barring few exceptions were sons of a king rather than the best kshatriya in the Kingdom. IF it was the son was the best suitable how was it decided very few times it has been mentioned.

  34. I read the most of it as being a long post. I however agree on the point that Caste is not a Vedic sanction by birth as far as my information goes. I was aware of the fact that four Varnas are equated to the four parts of the body as stated above. But the interpretation in my mind is slightly different. All four parts in a body e.g. head, arms, body/thighs, and legs are essential parts required to fulfil a designated function. In the same way as mouth and anus are equally essential. It will be naive, nay stupid to humiliate anus by saying that it deals with dirty faeces, hence it must be annihilated. The body cannot do without it. Hence the society need a doctor, engineer, teacher, preacher, tailor, washerman, haircutter, etc and they all have to come from the society itself. Thus the meritocratic system on Varna was recommended and quite rightly engineered. It worked well all over the globe.

    The brouhaha today about caste in Hindus is is based on two major factors. Hindus have been advocating its abolition in right or wrong ways but the desire has been there and very intense indeed. The colonial subjugation and the votebank gimicks has kept it alive. Colonial subjugation led to intense conversions by the Abrahamic religionists both by force as well as by peaceful methods of luring into their fold – predatory proselytisation as the Hindu American Foundation calls it, very rightly. This malicious blame gams against Hinduism must be exposed and condemned at every Global fora boldly with no excuse or fear. Only then can one expect its mitigation.

  35. I am impressed with the spirit of the blog by Agniveer. I have myself writen several articles on caste problem and its relation in Hinduism. It is sad that the so called civilised society is a dishonest selfish society which thrives on the weak. It is here that I call it inhuman and ask – Human = Who Man?

    Another interesting point about Varna. Varna is a Sanskrit word which means colour, not the caste or jaati. The very fact that Varna means colour is that it indicates the quality aphorismically. Which again will show its potentials on quality based faculty, instead of birth based discrimination. Unfortunately it has hardly attracted attention.

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