There is no caste-system in Vedas

This article is also available in Hindi at http://agniveer.com/4034/caste-vedas-hi/

In articles published so far in this series, we have seen how misleading have been the false stories of Aryan Invasion and subjugation of natives as slaves indulged in menial jobs. On contrary, we have seen the Vedas uphold highest dignity of labor. We have also seen that Daas/ Dasyu or Rakshas which are interpreted as natives or slaves of Aryans, are actually synonyms of criminals. Any civilized society has to keep these criminals in check.

We have also seen that Vedas consider all the four Varnas including Shudra as Arya and gives them utmost respect.

It is unfortunate that in this country of ours, where Vedas were the foundation of our culture, we forgot these original lessons of Vedas and got trapped in a variety of misconceptions regarding birth-based caste system and discrimination of people born in certain castes collectively known as Shudras.

The misleading theories of communists and biased indologists have already caused a great damage to our society and have sown seeds of differences. It is unfortunate that so-called Dalits consider themselves outcaste and hence we fail to unite together for prosperity and security. The only solution is to go back to the roots – the Vedas – and rebuild our understanding of our relationships with each other.

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In this article, we shall evaluate the reality of caste system in Vedas and actual meaning of Shudra.

1.

As discussed in the first article “Vedas  and Shudra”, there is absolutely no element of hatred or discrimination in Vedas regarding any person – be he or she a Brahmin, Vaishya, Kshatriya or Shudra.

2.

The concept of caste is relatively new. Vedas contain no word that can be considered a synonym for ‘caste’. The two words commonly considered to mean ‘caste’ are Jaati and Varna. However the truth is that, all the three mean completely different things.

Caste is a European innovation having no semblance in Vedic culture.

Jaati
Jaati means a classification based on source of origin. Nyaya Sutra states “Samaanaprasavaatmika Jaatih” or those having similar birth source form a Jaati.

An initial broad classification made by Rishis is 4-fold: Udbhija (coming out of ground like plants), Andaja (coming out of eggs like birds and reptiles), Pindaja (mammals) and Ushmaj (reproducing due to temperature and ambient conditions like virus, bacteria etc).

Similarly, various animals like elephant, lion, rabbits etc form different ‘Jaati’. In same manner, entire humanity forms one ‘Jaati’. A particular Jaati will have similar physical characteristics, cannot change from one Jaati to another and cannot cross-breed. Thus Jaati is creation of Ishwar or God.

Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra are no way different Jaati because there is no difference in source of birth or even physical characteristics to differentiate between them.

Later, word ‘Jaati’ started being used to imply any kind of classification. Thus in common usage, we call even different communities as different ‘Jaati’. However that is merely convenience of usage. In reality, all humans form one single Jaati.

Varna
The actual word used for Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra is ‘Varna’ and not Jaati.

The word ‘Varna’ is used not only for these four, but also for Dasyu and Arya.

‘Varna’ means one that is adopted by choice. Thus, while Jaati is provided by God, ‘Varna’ is our own choice.

Those who choose to be Arya are called ‘Arya Varna’. Those who choose to be Dasyu become ‘Dasyu Varna’. Same for Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra.

That is why Vedic Dharma is called ‘Varnashram Dharma’. The word Varna itself implies that this is based on complete freedom of choice and meritocracy.

3.

Those involved in intellectual activities have chosen ‘Brahmin Varna’. Those into defense and warfare are ‘Kshatriya Varna’. Those in economics and animal rearing are ‘Vaishya Varna’ and those involved in other support functions are “Shudra Varna”. They refer merely to various choices of professions and have nothing to do with any Jaati or birth.

4.

Often mantras of Purush Sukta are cited to prove that Brahmins originated from Mouth, Kshatriya from hands, Vaishya from thighs and Shudras from legs of God. Thus these varnas are birth-based. However nothing could be more deceptive. Let us see why:

a. Vedas describe God to be shapeless and unchangeable. How can such a God take shape of a gigantic person if He is shapeless. Refer Yajurved 40.8.

b. If indeed this were true, this would defy the theory of Karma of Vedas. Because as per Theory of Karma, one’s family of birth can change as per his or her deeds. So one born in Shudra family can take birth as king’s son in next birth. But if Shudras are born from feet of God, how can same Shudra again take birth from hands of God?

c. Soul is timeless and never born. So soul can have no Varna. It is only when it takes birth as human that it has a chance to opt a Varna. Then what is meant by a Varna coming from one part of God’s body? If Soul did not take birth from God’s body, then does it mean body of soul is prepared from God’s body parts? But as per Vedas, even nature is eternal. And same atoms recycle among various humans. So it is technically impossible for any one taking birth from God’s body, even if we assume God to be having a body.

d. The said Purush Sukta is in 31st Chapter of Yajurved, apart from Rigved and Atharvaved with some variations. In Yajurved it is 31.11. To see what it actually means, let us look at the previous mantra 31.10.
It asks a question – Who is mouth? Who is hand? Who is thigh and who is leg?

The next mantra gives the answer – Brahmin is mouth. Kshatriya is hand. Vaishya is thigh and Shudra becomes the legs.

Note that the mantra does not say that Brahmin “takes birth” from mouth…It says Brahmin “is” mouth. Because if the mantra would mean “takes birth” it would not answer the question in previous mantra “Who is mouth?”

For example, if I ask “Who is Dashrath?”, an answer like “Rama is born from Dashrath” would be meaningless!

The actual meaning is:
In society, Brahmins or intellectuals form the brain or head or mouth that think and speak. Kshatriya or defense personnel form the hands that protect. Vaishya or producers and businessmen form the thigh that support and nurture (note that thigh bone or femur produces blood and is strongest bone). In Atharvaveda, instead of Uru or Thigh, the word “Madhya” is used meaning that it denotes also the stomach and central part of body.

Shudra or Labor force form the legs that lay the foundation and make the body run.

The next mantras talk of other parts of this body like mind, eyes etc. The Purush Sukta describes the origin and continuation of creation including human society and states ingredients of a meaningful society.

Thus, its a pity that such a beautiful allegorical description of society and creation is distorted to mean something that is completely contrary to Vedic ethos.

Even the Brahman texts, Manusmriti, Mahabharat, Ramayan and Bhagvat  do not state anything even close to crazy hypothesis of God creating Brahmins by tearing of flesh from his mouth, Kshatriya from flesh of hands and so on.

5.

It is thus obvious why Brahmins are accorded high respect in Vedas. This is same as what happens even in modern society. Scholars and experts get our respect because they form the direction-providers for entire humanity. However, as we have discussed in previous articles, dignity of labor is equally emphasized in Vedas and hence there is no element of discrimination.

6.

In Vedic culture, everyone is considered to be born as Shudra. Then based on his or her education, one becomes a Brahmin, Kshatriya or Vaishya. This completion of education is considered to be a second birth. Hence these three Varnas are called “Dwija” or twice-born. But those who remain uneducated for whatever reasons are not discarded from society. They continue as Shudra and perform support-activities for the society.

7.

A son of Brahmin, if he fails to complete his education, becomes a Shudra. Similarly, son of a Shudra or even a Dasyu, if he completes his education can become a Brahmin, Kshatriya or Vaishya. This is pure meritocracy. The way degrees are accorded today, Yajnopaveet was provided in Vedic system. Further, non-compliance with the code of conduct for each Varna could result in taking away of the Yajnopaveet.

8.

Many examples exist of change of Varnas in Vedic history.

a. Aitareya Rishi was son of a Daasa or criminal but became a Brahmin of highest order and wrote Aitareya Brahman and Aitareyopanishad. Aitareya Brahman is considered critical to understand Rigveda.

b. Ailush Rishi was son of a Daasi, gambler and of low character. However he researched on Rigveda and made several discoveries. Not only was he invited by Rishis but also made an Acharya. (Aitareya Brahman 2.19)

c. Satyakaam Jaabaal was son of a prostitute but became a Brahmin.

d. Prishadh was son of King Daksha but became a Shudra. Further he did Tapasya to achieve salvation after repenting.
(Vishnu Puran 4.1.14)
Had Tapasya been banned for Shudra as per the fake story from Uttar Ramayan, how could Prishadh do so?

e. Nabhag, soon of King Nedishtha became Vaishya. Many of his sons again became Kshatriya. (Vishnu Puran 4.1.13)

f. Dhrist was son of Nabhag (Vaishya) but became Brahmin and his son became Kshatriya (VP 4.2.2)

g. Further in his generation, some became Brahmin again (VP 9.2.23)

h. As per Bhagvat, Agniveshya became Brahmin though born to a king.

i. Rathotar born in Kshatriya family became a Brahmin as per Vishnu Puran and Bhagvat.

j. Haarit became Brahmin though born to Kshatriya (VP 4.3.5)

k. Shaunak became Brahmin though born in Kshatriya family. (VP 4.8.1). In fact, as per Vayu Puran, Vishnu Puran and Harivansh Puran, sons of Shaunak Rishi belonged to all four Varnas.

Similar examples exist of Gritsamad, Veethavya and Vritsamati.

l. Matanga was son of Chandal but became a Brahmin.

m. Raavan was born from Pulatsya Rishi but became a Rakshas.

n. Pravriddha was son of Raghu King but became a Rakshas.

o. Trishanku was a king but became a Chandal

p. Sons of Vishwamitra became Shudra. Vishwamitra himself was a Kshatriya who later became a Brahmin.

q. Vidur was son of a servant but became a Brahmin and minister of Hastinapur empire.

9.

The word “Shudra” has come in Vedas around 20 times. Nowhere has it been used in a derogatory manner. Nowhere it mentions that Shudras are untouchable, birth-based, disallowed from study of Vedas, lesser in status than other Varnas, disallowed in Yajnas.

10.

In Vedas, Shudra means a hard-working person. (Tapase Shudram – Yajurved 30.5). And that is why Purush Sukta calls them as foundation of entire human society.

11.

Since the four Varnas refer to 4 kinds of activities by choice, as per Vedas, the same person exhibits characteristics of the 4 varnas in different situations. Thus everyone belongs to all the 4 varnas. However, for simplicity sake, we refer to the predominant profession to be the representative Varna.

And hence, all humans should strive to be all the 4 Varnas to best of their capabilities, as per Vedic wisdom. This is the essence of Purush Sukta.

The Rishis like Vasisth, Vishwamitra, Angira, Gautam, Vaamdeva and Kanva exhibited traits of all the four Varnas. They discovered meanings of Vedic mantras, destroyed Dasyus, did manual labor and indulged in wealth management for social welfare.
We should also emulate the same.

In summary, we see that the Vedic society considers all humans to be one single Jaati or race, upholds the dignity of labor and provides equal opportunity for all humans to adopt the Varna of their choice.

There is no element of birth-based discrimination of any manner in the Vedas.

May we all unite together as one integrated family, reject the last element of birth-based discrimination of any manner and embrace each other as brothers and sisters.

May we also thwart the designs of those who want to mislead us by making baseless claims of casteism in Vedas and destroy the criminals aka Dasyu/Daas/Rakshas.

May we all come under the shelter of Vedas and work together to strengthen the humanity as one single family.

There is no caste-system in Vedas.

Enhanced by ZemantaThis article is also available in Hindi at http://agniveer.com/4034/caste-vedas-hi/

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Comments

  1. vik says

    EXCELLENT ARTICLE AND WILL DISPEL ANY MYTHS. I HAD MANY CONFUSIONS, BUT THANKS TO THIS ARTICLES MY CONFUSIONS HAVE EVAPORATED.

    THANKS MR. AGNIVEER, MAY ISHWAR BLESSS U WITH FURTHER AND FURTHER KNOWLEDGE.

    • Dr I. Avinash says

      Agniveerji Thank you,
      So many ancient examples you have given, I appreciate your knowledge about mythology. Now problem is, we don’t consider Mr Kalmadi Or Mr Ketan Desai as shudras even though they have looted crores of money from our pocket through the scams and saints like Guru Ravidas or Saint Tukaram were opposed till they died, as shudras even though they were much more knowledgeable and noble than any Brahmin in those days. According to the original concept of Vedas and Manusmruti why still no Brahmin respects them. That means Brahmins also are not fallowing the true Vedas and thats why today those people should not be considered even as Hindus.
      As you said the current Vedas and Manusmruti are adulterated one then why are we fallowing the adulterated things. My humble request is either you sincerely fallow the original Vedas in its pure form or today what is going to happen if we forget the Varnas, anyway it has caused most damage to our religion. That will be the best way to implement the true equality in the society.

      • Amitesh says

        Dr Avinash,

        -> Where did you find “Myth-ology” in this article ?

        -> Wherein has Agniveer said that “Vedas” are adulterated ????? Kindly don’t make your own conclusions !
        All that Agniveer has said that since Manu Smriti has been adulterated during the prolonged years of our slavery, only those sections which are in sync with the Vedas should be accepted rest discarded. For the unchangeable nature of Vedas pls refer – http://agniveer.com/2697/why-vedas-cannot-be-changed/

      • Vasudevan says

        Hello Avinash,

        Your post reflects your confusion. What the article says is that the vedas do not support the caste system that is currently being practiced. It DOES NOT state that the Vedas are corrupted or adulterated – it is OUR interpretation of the Vedas that has been adulterated.

        People who are going about calling themselves “Brahmins” in today’s world are not actually brahmins in the real sense of Vedas – just because they have been born into families which had Brahmins as their ancestors, they have assumed the status of Brahmins. It is very similart to someone calling himself a doctor just because his great grandfather was a doctor by profession.

        The Vedas provide a Framework that the society is required to follow and if the society does not follow this framework, then it is not appropriate to blame the framework for this problem.

        • Shaas says

          Throughout milleniums – during all the invasions and occupations – it was the Vedic Families of Brahmins who preserved Vedic knowledge generation after generation, from parents to children. Brahmin profession is memorizing the Veda. That you cannot do whenever you have some idea but from early childhood.
          But its not only Brahmins who have to dedicate their whole life to hard work, in this case memorizing the Veda and Vedic Literature, but also Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras have their respective duties. Niyatam kuru karma tvam – do your alloted duty says the Gita

          • The Real Deal says

            Shaas, just think, we already had a no good president Pratibha Patil. What if her no good son also succeeded her?

            You say it is easier for progeny to pick up hereditary occupations since the guidance of the father is present. But this is precisely what went wrong with hinduism. How do you know the son is worthy enough to inherit the legacy of his father?

            All the 4 varnas are important. But society grades occupations based on skill and sphere of influence. In their blind hate for casteism and anti-hindu propaganda, people are suggesting all occupations are equal. If that was the case, would you suggest equal pay for the scientist and the garbage collector? No occupation is lowly, but that doesn’t imply all occupations are treated the same. There should be dignity of labour.

            I read your other comments on these forums. You say progeny are born to brahmins to experience in this lifetime certain karmas associated with being brahmins. If this wasn’t the case, they wouldn’t have been born in a brahmin household in the first place. This logic is very flawed.

            Being born in a brahmin household doesn’t mean you will experience karmas associated with brahmin lifestyle. What about Ravana, a brahmin gone wrong?

            What about Kanakadasa, a born sheperd who saw Udupi Krishna and became the highest brahmin?

        • Jay says

          Hi Vasudevan,
          I would like to point out few things you might have forgotten. Firstly, according to VEDA, Varnas were established by keeping two thing as the base – profession & Family-Lineage. So, If someone belongs to Hindu religion & abide by the guidelines of the religion then how one can ask such question !!! Hence, Your example of DOCTOR’s grandson will be called a doctor is wrong because DOCTOR is not a specific Caste / Varna according to VEDA.
          We all have our own right to write/response to blogs, but pls. think twice what you are trying to establish !!! Unlike other conservative religions,The Hindu religion is most progressive religion, that’s why we can debate on certain issues of the religion openly . But this kind of liberty should also have a limit.
          Here one thing I would like to mention- Hinduism & India are made for each other.Brahmins, Shudras ………. all are human beings and belong to same religion.So, to remove discrimination of the society, create reservation based on poverty & remove everything which is caste-based, because it’s existance will always keep reminding us of discrimination. Sorry, I might have moved slightly away from the main topic.

          • krishnarao72g says

            “Firstly, according to VEDA, Varnas were established by keeping two thing as the base – profession & Family-Lineage”

            - Can you please prove where in the Vedas it says this. Please provide the exact quote. I have read the Vedas and I found no where that Varnas is based on family lineage. Please give the exact quote and the person who translated the quote. Please provide evidence for you claim from a Hindu that translated the Vedas and states this. I want to go get that copy of the whole Vedas you claim to refer to for proof.

      • Nand Lal Patel says

        Whether Vedas preaches for varna or caste it is immaterial now. What is important is the format in which Hinduism is being followed practically. There might have been mobility upward depending on the ability of the person but with ulterior motives, Brahmins, to safegaurd the interest of their keens and kith, made the varna system a rigid one. They never recognised the good work of the non-Brahmins or even the one which opposed their terror. Those who opposed their divisive activitites were termed as low borne/Rakshas/Dasyu etc. Dear friends if our Veda do’nt preach castiesm as claimed above, then Brahmin should marry their daughters to Shudras and vice-versa.

        • KalBhairav says

          @Patelbhai:

          Your first few sentences made me think you were open to being reasonable:

          Whether Vedas preaches for varna or caste it is immaterial now. What is important is the format in which Hinduism is being followed practically.

          It appears in your last sentence you have already pre-decided that the Vedas preach birth-based caste system :-(

        • Nikhil says

          I agree with you fully Mr Nand Lal that we should be practical. In stead of merely debating on what Veda supported or rejected, we must see the present status of the society and try to make the necessary reforms. We must campaign for making a caste-less Hindu society by inter-caste marriages among the Hindus of similar social, financial and educational status. Those who refuse to do inter-caste marriage must be considered a hardcore believer of birth-based caste system.

          Pls note-that by inter-caste marriage I mean that one must search bride or groom for one’s kith and kin within the entire Hindu society in stead of searching within own caste. One need not compromise on the qualities of the bride/groom and their families, but they must be ready to accept the brides/grooms from any Hindu family regardless of their castes if the bride/groom matches their expected qualities other than caste.

          I appeal all Hindu (followers of vedic dharma) readers and authors of Agniveer to support the campaign of inter-caste marraige. Someone must establish trust, NGO, etc whose sole purpose should be to convince, motivate and help people for inter-caste marriages. If some has political power, then try to get a legislature be implemented by the various state govts and central govt to reward those who do inter-caste marriages. Bride/grooms of inter-caste marriages both be given Rs 5 lakhs each (total 10 lakhs to a couple) in their separate bank accounts as fixed deposits. This 5 lakhs should be given in five installments of Rs one lakh each at the interval of one year so as to prevent fraud and fake marriages just to grab the reward. Remaining installments should not be given if the couple get divorced or any of them dies due to any reason. The fund for such reward may be generated through various taxes, donations from NRIs, corporate sectors, other rich people of the world, etc.

      • Nand Lal Patel says

        Can you throw light on the manner and the rituals performed in Vedic Yagyan?. Is it the same one as depcted now in our several TV serials? Or animals even human being were sacrificed in these various Yagyans?

        • says

          1. Refer http://agniveer.com/3942/no-beef-in-vedas-part2/ and its first part. Animal sacrifice is against Vedas.

          2. Whom you call Brahmins are not Brahmins as per Vedas. Whom you call Shudra are no Shudra as per Vedas. If I start calling myself an astronomer, that does not make me a space traveler. And if others start accepting me as an astronomer merely because I claim to be so, then they are acting too naive.

        • says

          Namaste Nand Lal Patel

          All these bogus allegations stem from the wrong understanding of “medha” in ashwamedha, purushamedha etc. yajnas.

          to see an actual vedic ritual, type “athiratram” in google or youtube. this an introductory documentary explaining the ritual before it was conducted in april, 2011.

          httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FISuF_kJS4A&feature=related

          here’s a detailed article explaining a vedic ritual and clarifying that IT DOES NOT INVOLVE SACRIFICES

          http://satyameva-jayate.org/2011/05/13/athirathram/

        • Shaas says

          Dear Mr. Patel,
          re. “…even human being were sacrificed in these various Yagyans”: You are mixing it up with Christianity. In the bible we read about the God who requested one of his devotees to sacrifice his son. And bible supports slavery and, in one case, the selling of one’s daughter.
          Best wishes
          Shaas

      • karunajeevan says

        It is a fake essay written by someone. Brhimins are th criminals of India and Arayans invaded India.And they slowly slowly enslaved the Dravidians the originals of India. Brhimins and Arayans coperated with Brahmins for Sects or varnas, they also coined scripture in order to follow the slavery or caste system.
        The Brahmins have to be punished for their criminal activites of castism. India needs agood Hitler in order to hang all the caste providers especially the Brhmins

        • Bharath says

          It would be considerable if you can bring any sources of your claims…
          Bring any authentic sources other than Aryan invasion theory from the British colonists…

    • Slave of Vedas says

      ARYA SAMARPAN GEET
      Hey Ishwar kya tera diya Sundar Varna hai
      Hiro ke kimat ko jhuka de
      Aisa yeh dharma hai

      Agar Brahman Chunu toh Vedo ki mahima
      Vishwa mein faila du
      Kshatriya Chunu toh apno ka jivan
      apne prana dekar bhi raksha karu
      Vaishya Chunu toh Priyejano ke daridrata ko door karke
      unnati ko aasman ki aur bada du
      Phir agar yehi haath apne hi dharm ka vinaash kare
      Yeh rom-rom Shudratva ko grahan kare
      Mera hi samaj Mujhe hi barhishkar kare
      Toh kya apne kartavya ko chor
      Dasyuvo ki Sharan lu ?
      Are wo bhakt hi kya
      Jo kaato ke dar se bhakti ko hi chor de
      Apne Niyamo ka ullanghan karne se bhala
      apna maatha kaat
      Apne prabhu ke hawaale karu

      Manushya wo nahi jo dosh kare aur dand se bhage
      Lekin wo hain jo waapas satya ki raah le

      Thik tab ho , jab apne galti ka ehsaas karke
      Niyam ke badhe huye karma ko
      astra ki tarah uthaaoo
      Aur apne maan-sammaan aur dvijatvo ko waapas grahan karu
      O Maha-aatma(Super soul .i.e. father of all souls) ekbaar suno mere samarpan ko
      Aandhi aaye , toofan aaye , Chahe Mrityu bhi Aaye
      Tujhe kabhi na Choru
      Hey Ishwar,
      MEIN TERA ARYA HU
      MEIN TERA ARYA HU
      MEIN TERA ARYA HU

  2. Sarang says

    This is excellent article. I am reading series of articles on this topic and ur every article is helping us in revealing truth. Thanks to you. I partucularly like your article exposing the evil man zakir naik and his forefathers in desert lands.

  3. Rashmi says

    Agniveer ji in this regard i paste an article by my Guru ji Swami Ramswarup ji which is very true when you read biographies of all yogis who have achieved Nirvikalpa samadhi.
    "Gotra system
    The meaning of ‘gotra’ is a path, family line, genealogy and a learned acharya on whose name the path of vansh (gotra) has been made. For-example, there was “Bhardwaj rishi” on whose name Bhardwaj gotra stands etc. Rigveda mantra 10/85/21 states that marriage of boy and girl must not be performed within gotra.

    According to Rigveda Mantra 10/85/21 marriage should always be solemnized with girl from different gotra.

    Manusmriti Shloka 3/5 states that the girl who is away from the six generations of parents is only to be married.

    As per Yajurveda mantra 31/11, God has not made any caste system. There are four classes of human beings (varannas) according to the deeds and not by birth.

    Those classes (VARNNAS) are — BRAHMIN, KSHATRIYE, VAISHYA and SHUDRA, which are changeable based on deeds. Further, human beings have made their own Gotras. It is not good to marry in the same Gotra.

    2. Vedas as well as Manusmriti do not tell about caste system by birth. Yajurveda mantra 31/11 clearly states that varnna system is based on individual pious or bad deeds. I also paste my article below-

    Four Ashrams

    There are four ashrams in the life, Brahamcharya ashram up to age of 25 years, Grihastha ashram up to 50 years, Vanprasth ashram up to 75 years and Sanyas ashram up to 100 years. So one should try to discharge his duties of every ashram knowing duties thereof and then must take sanyas, but if anybody else is interested to take sanyas being ascetic by true speech etc., then he can take sanyas even at an early age.

    I have already written about caste system (varn vyavastha). Yajurveda mantra 31/11 says that caste is based on present deeds (karmas) and not by birth. The sense of Mantra is that if a son of shudra studies Vedas, controls senses/organs and mind, does practice of Ashtang yoga, then he will be considered Brahmin and a Brahmin who has no such qualities he will be treated as shudra etc., etc. There is no caste system in Vedas based on birth and the other holy books like Manusmriti, six shastras, Upnishads, Valmiki Ramayana, Mahabharat (Bhagwad Geeta) etc., were written by ancient Rishis/Munis based on only the knowledge of Vedas, so no caste system exists therein based on birth.

    In this connection Yajurveda mantra 31/11 also says that he who knows Vedas and God, he is Brahmin being most supreme in the world like a mouth in the body. So anyone (of any caste) can be a Brahmin by hard studies of Vedas, practising Ashtang yoga therein and thus realizing God. One who has physical power in his arms, he is Kashtriye-Rajput to protect the country. So anyone can be a Rajput, holding the said qualities. One who has powers in his thighs to travel and to do hard work to establish business, he is Vaishya (businessman). One who has not studied, based on his qualities that he could not gain the qualities of Brahmin, Kashtriye and Vaishya, he is shudra (may be of any caste).

    There is a symbolic story in Mahabharat. That once Yudhistar saw that his brother Bhima was caught by a huge python. Yudhistar asked python that my brother is a great warrior having sufficient power that you could not catch him. So really you are not python, tell me, who you are. Python replied that he was a yaksha. O Yudishtar, if you would answer my question, then your brother would be released. Yaksha asked Yudhistar that if a son of Brahmin takes wine, meat, gambles and does bad deeds then whether he will be considered as Brahmin and when a shudra (lowest caste) reads Vedas, does practice of Ashtang yoga, controls his five senses, five organs and mind and does always pious deeds then whether the son of such shudra will remain shudra? Yudhistar replied that the Brahmin will be treated as shudra and shudra will be treated as Brahmin.

    King Janak called all the emperors/anybody to break the bow to prove to be the best powerful emperor amongst all to marry his daughter Sita. So King Janak did not make any objection of caste system. So was the case of marriage of Draupadi where in the dress of a Brahmin Arjuna pierced the eye of the fish with arrow and Yudhistar married Draupadi. Draupadi was daughter of Khastriye, Rajput whereas in the dress, Yudhistar was Brahmin. So qualities are to be checked either of boy or girl.

    • Dr I. Avinash says

      Madomji,
      Before praising Manusmruti blindly, read it first. In that it is very clearly maintained about who should be called as Shudra? Who should be called as Vaisha? If Bramhin married to shudra what the child should be considered? Different punishments if the same crime according to the varna, what punishments to shudra if he listens, says or sees Vedas. Also read about the writings of so called great Bramhin saint Tulsidas about shudras and women. Dont tell all mythological stories what you have heard from some Babajis. If the things what you have maintained are true then why the Bramhins who are not acting according to above maintained rules in vedas are punished. Why the well educated people like DR Ambedkar and Mahatma Fule were troubled why not according to Vedas they were not considered as Bramhins. Why for thousands of years Shudras were not having right of having education. It was only possible Dr BRA when britishers were ruling over India otherwise still that nonsense would have continued now also and even you would not have wrote this article. Thank Savitribai Fule.

      • Akhila Padhi says

        Dear Mr. Avinash,

        Perhaps you are not a veda reader, but wrote what the preachers of Christianity say to attract tribal people. In this article more than 10 examples were given that proves the inter-changeability of profession allowed. I can show u thousands of such examples.
        The problem started when people like you followed what others said, and did not critically read and understood vedas. until Islamic invasion, girls were also going to school. In mahabharat Rukmini wrote letter to Krishna, if she would have been illiterate she wont have been able to do that.
        It is to be accepted that untouchable is a sin, and ancient Rishis always tried to keep it out of the society. Mahabharat is written to solve two problems, 1. Right of women and 2. Give equal right to Sudras.

        Read mahabharat properly, u ll find the truth.

    • Nikhil says

      Rashmi,
      Pls note that during Draupadi’s swayamwar, Karna was almost at the point of hitting the target successfully as per the condition set. But, Draupadi stopped Karna from hitting the target and openly declared that she won’t marry Karna even if he hits the target because he was a sut-putra (a caste of shudra varn) due to his birth in that family. Lord Krishna was present there, By virtue of his immense wisdom and skill, he could easily convince Draupadi and her family members that one should see the quality and virtue of the person, not the family of birth. But, on the contrary, Krishna supported Draupadi’s stand saying that the wish of the girl must be respected in case of her marriage. But, this was not a well thought wish of Draupadi to reject Karna due to his low-caste. She rejected him only because she was brought-up in a society following birth based caste system. Here Krishna appeared not like a God or someone who does justice or follows dharma, rather he behaved like a biased person who wanted to Draupadi to get married with his cousin Arjun and other pandavas that could be possible only when Karna was rejected somehow. Krishna and Rama were great people who had many divine qualities that inspire and motivate we all, but they had many weaknesses as well that must be criticized severely. I can’t consider them God.

      So, regardless of whether vedas, manu smiriti and other scriptures of vedic religion support or reject birth based caste system, it is a proven historical fact that we vedic people have been practicing birth based caste system since the time of Mahabharat, that is, since at least last five thousand years. Hence, Veda or manu smiriti have failed badly on practical basis as they couldn’t convince their followers to reject birth-based caste system. So, in stead of arguing on birth-based or education-based varn system, we must reject vedic varn system considering it confusing, error-prone and susceptible to be abused by powerful groups in their favour.

      Christians are most successful people today without following any varn system–we hindus are dependent on discoveries and inventions of Christians for science, medicine, technology, economics, administrative system, etc. So, we should stop praising those teachings (varn system) of our vedic scriptures that have given us no practical benefits, but given us lots of confusion and miseries.

      We must campaign to make a caste-less hindu society by supporting, promoting, motivating and encouraging inter-caste marriages among the families of equivalent social, financial and educational status. The irony is, most educated Hindus debate on unpractical things, and avoid talking openly on inter-caste marriages–In fact, most Hindus, including those who write articles and comments on this website, don’t want to make any practical attempt to eliminate caste system. So, dry debate is practically of no use.

      Political and financial corruption is at its height in India as public is divided in thosuands of castes. They can’t unite against a corrupt leader/officer/judge. Corrupt officer/judges/politician get full support from their own casts and supporting caste people. People sitting at responsible positions of CM, PM, other ministers, judges, police officers, bureaucrats, etc themselves are biased on caste basis–hence, there is none to check the corruption—good person won’t get support from masses as public vote on caste basis–those who get vote and win are biased, irresponsible and corrupt. Caste system has done and still doing huge damage to India. This cannot stop until we make a caste-less hindu society by making a campaign for large scale inter-caste marraige.

      • Kodhia says

        Dear Nikhil,

        what u said about the Mahabharata, is clearly true, but misunderstood by you. There are 2 points conveyed by this part of the Draupadi Swayamvar that you have mentioned.
        1. Since a birth based Shudra, and varna based Kshatriya (Karna) was allowed in the Swayamvar, and even he went to aim in the presence of Krishna and all learned Kshatriyas, and Brahmins, shows that there was no discrimination by birth. Otherwise he would not have been allowed in the first place.
        2. The bride had the right to choose anybody, even if he didn’t hit the target, and reject somebody even if he hit the target due to personal reasons, even if that was against Dharma. She did just that and that’s why all the learned Kshatriyas and Brahmins, and even Krishna.

        You know, if you have a prejudice that there is birth based system being practised, you’ll have these confusions. If birth based system was being practised, Karna wouldn’t have been a King, nor he would be in the Swayamvar, and even he would not have been insulted by calling him a Shudra.

  4. Arya says

    @Rashmi
    No person can become God and all actual gurus like Rishi Patanjali consider Eeshvar as guru of gurus of all times.

  5. Subash says

    This is a collection of superb info !! Excellent articles!! Keep up the good work, God bless you all ! !

    • Rashmi says

      Dear Arya Ji, God reveals and originates the knowledge of vedas only at the beginning of Creation in the four most deserving souls, who had followed vedic path in previous creation but could not attain moksha. Then traditinally the knowledge of vedas is transferred through mouth to mouth. Upnishad says sushrunaam dhirannam, we have been listening vedas traditinally from Rishis who have achieved samadhi in meditation. In this creation Brahma is the first one to get this knowledge from the said four rishis, thats why purannas had symbolically depicted him having four head, this is the allegory, though false. I have asked my Guruji to provide us the reference of veda mantra reference on Guru.In this connection, I mention the following concerned mantras. As regards their meaning, it will take sometime, please wait because as you know annual yajyen for Sixty four days is being held. Samveda mantra 252, Rigveda mantra 1/144/7, Rigveda mantra 1/162/21, Rigveda mantra 1/163/2, Rigveda mantra 1/145/5, Rigveda mantra 1/145/1 and Yajurveda mantra 2/32.

  6. Looking says

    Not sure I agree. The Upanishads contain the moving story of Satya kama Jabali who was accepted by his Guru because he revealed his low birth without equivocation. Now, this story would be completely non-sensical unless birth based prejudice was already quite prevalent at the time of these early Upanishads.

    • says

      1. Upanishads are much later dated than Vedas. So the society of Upanishadic times was not completely as per Vedic norms and various distortion had crept in.

      2. However in case of Jabala, it was not a birth-based caste running from generations that made him lowly. Instead, her mother was a prostitute. Even today, if children of criminals or prostitutes come for such education, there would be bias. However, Satyakam was honest enough to reveal his identity. Yet he was accepted because of his truthfulness. Though the deeds of her mother made her an outcaste, yet opportunities were open for Jabali to become a Rishi mastering spiritual sciences. When son of a prostitute could be given entry to Vedic learning, there is no reason to believe that children of Shudras would be debarred from it. This shows that even till Upanishadic times, birth-based caste system was not prevalent.

      • Looking says

        I agree that that is what the Upanishad tale is claiming. But as I said before, surely the tale is making a point that needs to be made! If the tale said, Satya Kama Jabali was a son of a Brahmin and **still** was accepted by his Guru, that'd be hilarious. Anyhoo, since you accepted that some distortion had crept in at the time of the Upanishads, this points need not be belabored.

        I want to ask you something else. Of course, if it is indeed true that the Vedic age was meritocratic, that must be pointed out, and defended from distortion. But for arguments sake, let's assume that it's not. Would that be so terrible for Hinduism? Surely, what separates Hinduism, specially from the monotheisms, is its openness to re-examine even fundamental issues. Some Upanishads claim themselves to be higher form of knowledge than the Vedas proper. Whether or someone agrees with that point of view is unimportant, what is obvious that such radical statements can be made within the Hindu fold.

        • says

          1. While Vedic Dharma allows for liberty of thought, that would not imply that counter-views are embraced without any examination. If that be so, it no more remains a science.

          2. The difference, I would say, is that as per Vedas, those holding counter-views are not cursed into hell or murdered or forced to live as second-grade citizens or pay any additional tax. However that also does not imply that we start accepting unverified theories in our curriculum.

          3. Hinduism is not the word I am comfortable with.That is a later aberration. I prefer to use Vedic dharma, which states that truth should prevail. Vedas form the foundation of Dharma, and no upanishad or other text can claim supremacy over Vedas. They merely elaborate further on certain topics of Vedas. But still if one believes so, for whatever reasons, that does not create a problem because liberty of thoughts is promoted, to extent it does not damage the social fabric.

          4. Nowadays it has become a fashion to challenge the most fundamental foundations of Vedic dharma without any evidence or logic, merely to show openmindedness or serve one's own prejudices. This is certainly worth condemnation. That is one of the objectives of this site – to dispel such myths and bring true picture of Dharma to fore.

          • Looking says

            Alright.

            You said "…the most fundamental foundations of Vedic dharma without any evidence or logic". Fair enough. Now, as a matter of principle, would you accept changes to foundational aspects of Vedic dharma if they had evidence or logic? Please note that I am not talking about caste system now, just trying to understand if this is possible in principle.

          • SDC says

            Aa No Bhadra Kratavo Yanthu Vishvataha (Let noble thoughts flow into your mind from all sides — Rig Veda). So, there is no reason why we should not be accepting things which are good for the humanity as a whole and discarding the ones that might otherwise pose a danger. But be specific about any particular verse of the Vedas that are objectionable or are contrary to the spirit of above stated verse.

          • Looking says

            Don't have any, but who knows, one day we might. The question is whether or not Vedic Dharma (since Hindusim isn't an acceptable term) an open or closed system.

  7. SDC says

    I feel Jagadish that what we really need to do is to preach the truth and the truth is that the caste system in the present form is a demonized version of the vedic caste system, which was merely a division of labor and certainly not a division of society.

  8. rashmi says

    Just refer this site read pray to God for a real Guru and he will come, its really true God is an experience -http://www.yogananda-srf.org. Read and research of all indian Yogis on own its wonderful to read vedas and experience the same.

  9. Rubul says

    Please tel me who wrote the four vedas Bhagwan Vishnu or Maharishi Vyas? Among the all Varna Brahmin is considered as more superior than the other ones. They reserve all rights for themselves and a very little is left for the other for ex-: Knowledge of Vedas is only for Brahmin, Kshtriyas is responsible for ruling only and that too with consultation from rajpurohit, Vyashya for trade and shudras are for all humiliating activity like slaughtering. Further varna is not adopted by choice but by birth.
    While Maharishi Vyas is a Brahmin. Readers evaluate yourself
    "while caste system is not described in vedas but the varna is… and the vedas are written by brahmin." No one knows the real facts including me that how this vedas came into existence its only a mythology. But yes following the positive facts and points of these vedas and geeta one can live a happy life described as "saatwik jivan"

    • Vasudevan says

      Hi Rubul,

      You seem to have some issues with the requirement that the “Vedas are written by Brahmins” – even after it has been clarified that Brahmins are not determined by birth but by their qualification. This is quite funny. Would you object to the fact that you get treated only by doctors when you fall sick? Or that only engineers get to build your home when you get one constructed? Would you want a professor of history to treat a cancer patient? Or a lawyer to design and build your home?

      When you go to a University to get a PhD, you can not just like that write something and claim to have completed your research thesis. You need to spend several years under the guidance of a well qualified and recognized “guide” whose blessings are needed for you to create the thesis. Then your thesis has to be circulated to several other scholars for a “peer review” and they have to bless your theory in turn. Finally you get to defend your thesis after which only, you would get a Doctorate. Whether you like it or not, this is how one gets to become a Doctor. This is the “caste system” of today’s world. Try arguing with a University to change this system !

      I am sure the group of people who composed the Vedas had some such system of “peer review” among them. What is so bad about it?

  10. Arya says

    @smarttamil
    Namaste,
    We neither call him Brahmin nor Kshatriya. In fact he, along with his companions, is called "Rakshas".

    • says

      Indeed! And we need your support to help it reach everyone you know! It has to become a mass movement. Please be a partner in this yajna.

      Dhanyavad
      Angira
      AEB

  11. Sunil G.R. says

    This is what i have heard from a scholar (Dr.K.S.Narayanacharya).
    As the article says, 'caste' is not equivalent to neither 'jaati' nor 'varna'. But considering here caste as varna for easy usage.
    Indeed there was a 'caste SYSTEM' in Vedas, but not 'casteISM'. i.e. 'jaati paddati' was there but not 'jaateeyate' (jaateeyate is casteism in kannada). Having 'system' for anything is not bad. But 'ism' is bad.

    Taking a company as an example, to run the company, there has to be Managers, employees, directors etc. This is a system. Based on individual talent, they can reach any post including upto CEO. But ism is something like, manager son is also manager, director son is also director etc..

    So it is always better to know the difference between 'caste system' and 'casteism' clearly.

    This is a very good site though. Will propogate this site within my circle.

  12. jacob says

    go back to vedas the original scriptures that’s what dr zakir naik says( this he says to muslims also), you are not the first one to say so brother put all efforts for the true light of vedas to illuminates, and the world get the insight of hinduism before it is too late. all my best wishes for you.

    • Vasudevan says

      Hi Jacob,

      Our telling “go back to the basics of Vedas” and dr. zakir naik’s telling his followers “go back to the basics of quran” are as far apart as cheese and chalk. What the quran preaches is pure hatred and ignorance – so it would not have the same effect as going back to the basics of the Vedas.

      This is one analogy we can very well do without.

  13. Kaffir786 says

    SIMPLE LOGIC WILL EXPOSE THE HINDU CASTE SYSTEM PROPAGANDA OF CHRISTIAN/MUSLIM/COMMUNIST. RAMAYANA was written by VALMIKI who in present day context is DALIT he praised LORD RAM. LORD KRISHNA is from YADAV community who is OBC/SC in present caste system even Brahmins worship HIM without seeing his caste. SO HOW COME THERE IS CASTE SYSTEM IN HINDU RELIGION

  14. dr. rahul sawant says

    i think ur site is not giving correct information regarding manusmriti & vedas. don’t know why but may b to mislead peaple. pls read once again. go to the depth and help people to understand. we’ve to educate people & make unity. there r 6000 castes in inidia. each one is indifferent to others. we r suppose to change the system for everyones benefit. others r also reading books. pls give right information for god’s sake. be brave, tell the facts….

    • Arya says

      @dr. rahul sawant
      Please specify where did you find the incorrect information regarding Manusmriti and Vedas on the site which is misleading the people.

    • gayatri says

      dr.rahul sawant…6000 castes are made by men..and where there are human beings there will be differences.Mr Agniveer is brave enough to put the facts infront of us…he must be doing lots of research before stating anything on the site.This is a revolution and we must join hands for a better future.

  15. Shubh Shastri says

    This article makes no sense at all. From my point of view Vedas are fake stories and entertainment for other parties. Article heading says “No casts in Vedas” but while reading article vedas are completely follower of Casts. They talked about Manusmiti but in two lines. OK I follow you God, Brahmin, and Khatriya birth exaplanation but it can not be hidden that Manusmiti is strongly support casts and insulted all jaatis except Brahmins. Manusmriri should be completely banned because it is dangerous than Madarasa (Muslim) teaching work. People who have commented and pointed some weblinks, all those websites are created and strongly supported by Brahmins only. This website is basically buttering other casts to believe in Vedas and make to fool or suffer them later on. I do understand Ramayana and Mahabharat had wriiten originally by different casts as POAM (or story only) but it later had been altered by Brahmins and published so wisely to look thiese are true stories. In today’s date Ram mandir issue started happening which was created by Brahmins only. Till today more than 70,000 people died so far in this issue but none of them was Brahmin. People will have to understand if Ram mandir will get built then only and only “Brahmin” will eat fruit. So all in all Vedas are stupid stories and should not be followed at all.

    • Bhartendu Mishra says

      @shashtriji,

      So, if your upper ceiling isn’t working properly and you can’t comprehend, the article becomes senseless !! Badhiyaan hai !!

      1. Wherefrom did you conclude that vedas are fake stories and entertainement for other parties?? Have you ever peeped into the vedas or just blabbering by reading some books of DN Jha and Romila Thapad. Kindly enlighten the netizens of the basis of your “point of view”.
      2.Wherein did you find in this article that vedas talk about caste-System??
      3. It has clearly said in many of the posts that manusmriti has been highly corrupted and only those verses which are in tandem with vedas are to be followed, reast discarded. But again, you will have to open up your upper ceiling for that !!
      4.Enlighten us with the basis of your understanding that ramayan and mahabharat are mere “POAMS” !!
      5. For your other idiotics, I would first like to know from you that what do you understand by the word “brahmins”??

    • Dr I. Avinash says

      Dear Shastriji,
      Actually if you consider superficially you may get convinsed about presence of caste system in Vedas. Whole confusion has started because of four Varnas were considered as Castes (Jati) and although maintained but vernas were not given so much importance in Vedas. because initially they were interchangeable according to Karma. It was Manu who out of selfishness and greed to rule over the other varnas who made this as a rule. It is like the word KAFIR in Kuran is considered as people from other religion by Taliban for timely benifit but it actually means ADHARMI not Pardharmi . That habit was continued because higher Varnas were getting benefited at the cost of basic Human rights of shudras. But this is the high time we should unite and oppose this nonsense where ever it is other wise Shudras will (should) leave this beautifull religion because of some mad so called upper caste people.

      • says

        Dear Dr Avinash

        Kindly do not blame Manu. The original Manu Smriti has been grossly tampered with to include casteist and many other foolish concepts. If you read Manu Smriti, you can very easily locate such discrepancies. Casteist verses almost everywhere appear out of context. There are several verses in Manu Smriti which debunk caste system by birth.

        • Dr I. Avinash says

          Dear Agniveerji,
          Where ever there is nonsense in Manusmruti, let us assume that it is the tampered portion. It is your greatness that you accept that it is wrong but it is the fact that every body is believing in that so called tampered portion and behaving also according to it, otherwise our great religion would not have been defamed like this, we would not have to make the laws against conversions, whole situation would have been very different.
          I think you will have to agree this otherwise you can recall whether you and your all relatives have got their caste identity according to their Karma or Janma. You can ask this questions to all priests in the temples and let me know if you get a single case according to your above maintained Vedas and Manusmruti.

      • Vasudevan says

        Even in Manu Smrithi, nowhere is it mentioned that the son of a Brahmin automatically becomes a Brahmin, Manu Smrithi provides a detailed “process hand-book” on how one qualified oneself to be a Brahmin or Kshathriya or Vaishya. It is true that a lot of verses have been interpolated into Manu Smrithi which have introduced contradictions. One needs to discard such verses.

  16. abhijeet4288 says

    The brahmins and oother upper castes would be happy if they are made SC/STs in today’s India for getting reservation benefits. Even the Dalit Christians and Dalit Muslims want reservation benefits!!

    • Dr I. Avinash says

      I think Abhijeet resides in metro city thats why he is talking like this. I request you to go to rural areas where 90% of the shudras population is residing and see how they are still being treated particularly in Bihar, UP, Rajasthan, Madhya pradesh, Gujrat, Odisa, and Asaam.
      By the way, why don’t you or your brothers marry with shudra girl so that at least your siblings will get benefits of reservations at the cost of torture and humiliation. Just imagine once, your son or daughter carrying others excreta thoghout her life, how you will feel. Think shudras are made to do such various inhuman, intolerable activities for thousands of years.
      Untouchability is the oldest psychological disorder of the Hinduism, this is the fact but untill we accept this reality that disease is not going to be get cured. Many people including Mahatma Phule and Swami Vivekanand and also Swatantryaveer Savarkar tried their level best but in vein.
      The only doctor who could make the difference was Dr B R Ambedkar that also when Hindus weren’t rulers. This he could do only through reservations which is not to snatch anybodies rights but to give Shudras their own rights. There was no other possible way because almost all upper caste people were (and are) suffering from this deadly (psychological) disease. The situation is so dangerous that patients do not want to take the treatment because they do not agree that there is something wrong with them and also they do not want Shudras also to wear the shield of reservation so that the same nonsense will be continued.

      • Vasudevan says

        The way the caste system is being practiced today in India is certainly shameful, to say the least. But we should stop blaming the Vedas for this malice and accept responsibility that those who are practicing and supporting this evil practice are doing it without any sanction from Vedas. A social evil is being projected into the basic tenets of the Vedic system, which is amounting to a display of contempt for the Vedic teachings.

  17. Aravind S says

    Shri. Agniveerji

    I thank you very much as you clarified most of my doubts that had in my mind. But still there are some queries i need to get clarified. As said in this article, if there is no caste division described on birth basis in vedas, then people of those period must have got their education as birth rights, if that was happened in those days, then Why in Mahabaratha Karna was refused by his Guru for education?

    Society & I will be thankful to you if we get clarified about these kind of queries, which also lead to better understanding about hindu dharma.

      • Vasudevan says

        You are partly right. Karna was not refused education by Dronacharya but it was Ekalavya who was refused. And the reason was, that Dronacharya had promised Arjuna that he would train him to be the BEST ARCHER in the whole world and Dronacharya had to honour this promise he had made to Arjuna.

        Karna’s case is different – he went directly to Parashurama for his education – but in a deceptive manner. Parashurama had taken a vow to destroy all Kshatriyas of the world and had refused to teach any Kshatriya – and vowed to teach only Brahmins. Karna went to Parashurama with the false claim that he was of a Brahmin descent. The rest is known history.

        I do see a problem with the above story however. This shows that Parashurama had discriminated among his prospective students based on their birth. And Parashurama was supposed to be an Avatar of Mahavishnu.

        Though I do not have an answer to how Parashurama could have taken a vow that required the breach of Vedic tenets (that all human beings should be treated as equal irrespective of their birth), I would assume that individual teachers had the discretion to determine whom they would teach and whom they could refuse. This is the same basis on which Dronacharya could have refused studentship to Ekalavya.

        • The Real Deal says

          Parashurama is not discriminating. Kshatriyas had killed his father. So he was their sworn enemy. He wouldn’t part with his knowledge to them.

          Parashurama is avatar of Narayana. Ara=defects, Na+ara=no defects, Narayana=one who has no defects.

          So it is silly to assume that Narayana, who is all knowing, was defective in his avatars. Parashurama very well knew who Karna was. But he taught him coz otherwise the Mahabharata wouldn’t occur. Duryodhana had confidence to challenge Pandavas only because Karna was on his side.

          Remember that all epics are lilas. If you observe carefully, Vishnu in his 3 avatars (Parashurama, Krishna and Vyasa) regulates the entire story.

          Vyasa is the father of the kurus through niyoga. If not for this, the story wouldn’t have started in the first place.

          Parashurama taught 3 people involved in the war: Bhishma, Drona and Karna. All 3 were on the side of Kauravas and Duryodhana could start the war thinking he could defeat pandavas with these mighty warriors on his side.

          Krishna was the savior for the virtuous. If not for him, Pandavas wouldn’t have won.

  18. kingkong says

    hello sir,
    your explanations & interpretations of vedas are excellent. Though i’m very new to this forum & this sort of discussions. I would like to point out few things. I don’t want accept with your notion of ‘going back to vedas’
    1. Do you agree with me that Vedas were supposed to be written many centuries ago ? (I’m sorry if you believe them to be divine)
    2. If so, Perhaps the problems that their societies faced, do they have relevance in this present generation (especially this era of Information Overburden) ? Though the basic premises of the problems of all societies appear to be same, picking out solutions to our present day problems from those ancient texts can have different connotations.
    3. Are the intellectual capabilities of the present generation anyway less than our forefathers who lived many centuries back ?
    4. Why do you try to provide legitimacy to those texts which were written not for our society. Instead I want you to project alternate suggestions to the Caste & Communal Prolems of the present day society in an original sense (have we lost our original thinking ?) . This forum is is no doubt creating a good debate, But why do you people fight over the legitimacy of those texts, instead pick the basics from the so-called sacred texts & mould them to today’s societal demands.
    And finally, I’m sorry if I have offended any of you guys (though unintentionally). You are definitely great & I admire your intellectual capabilities. have a good time.. bye

    • says

      Namaste

      Answering point by point:

      1. Vedas are oldest texts of humanity and preserved in impeccable manner. We consider them divine because there can be no other explanation for human life and its knowledge.

      2. The subjects of Vedas are beyond restrictions of time and society. They provide knowledge that is equally applicable to all times and geographies and yet be beneficial for humanity. Thus when we seek solutions from Vedas, they are the most relevant. It is only later day solutions that create further problems for future because of their inherent short-sightedness. 99% of problems today are merely solutions of some other problems that we tried to solve yesterday.

      3. Definitely, it is very less. In general we have lost a sense of purpose and holistic thinking. We don’t create solutions but problems for tomorrow that are commercialized for short term gains. And after all the toys we have created in name of science, the basic challenges remain the same. We ultimately die and thats end of game. All that modern intellectuals do is to create timepass toys for a short journey and in process they forget their ultimate goal.

      Our ancient Rishis were much smarter and they created solutions that enable us to understand our purpose in this extremely short life and then move ahead in planned manner.

      Remember that if this life is end of everything, then everyone is at same level and whatever effort or intellect anyone demonstrates is equally waste. You can no way then compare any two persons who do their time-pass in different manners and then die. But if this is not end of file, then what modern generation is doing is largely utter foolishness compared to the first generation.

      4. Vedas provide original thinking. Unless you link anything with original purpose, there can be no solution to any problem. Our attempts to solve these issues like Caste, Terrorism has only made matters worse or replaced them with even graver problems. The reason is simple – if I believe in modern approach of believing in this life alone and nothing beyond, then there is no incentive for me to reform the society and make sacrifices. I am better off enjoying my life, raping, killing, looting etc and maximizing my fun here.

      But if there is life beyond (which is logically obvious to a non-indulgent person), one has to explore the purpose in most genuine manner and ensure that all actions and all solutions he or she seeks in life are in sync with that purpose. And hence study of Vedas becomes necessary.

      5. Tell me one single reason why anyone should reject casteism or terrorism or corruption as per ‘modern’ thinking that refutes existence of life hereafter or considers that a non-issue, when that benefits me as a power hungry politician?

      You don’t offend us, because taking offence does not lead us anywhere. We firmly believe that Vedas alone possess solutions for human beings that remain unchanged over ages and across societies. All other attempts would only lead to future problems.

      Admin

  19. rathin says

    thanks guys for posting the exiting articles.and creative debates. as a vaisnav i strongly believe vedas is divine because of it,s spiritual meaning and and purity, but the sri geeta shows us the best way of living for all times present and future. Modern word is of karma and we must add vakti and gayan in it to get the fall(moksha). i do appreciate more writings on geeta and its explanation from agniveer.

    thanks

  20. Causality says

    It is heart warming to hear that there are lines to support that our religion does not support caste system but I’d like to know the interpretations of certain lines from our scriptures which could be taken out of context to prove everyone that it is very caste centric or a chauvinistic male dominated religion

    Take the lines of the Gita 9.32

    It says

    Bhagavad Gita 9.32
    O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth — women, vaiśyas and śūdras, can attain the supreme destination. (Lower Birth??)

    In what way is women considered to be lower birth

    Rig-Veda 8-33-7
    Women are fickle minded. Never believe them. Friendship with a women is just like friendship with a wolf.

    Manusmriti 4.206
    Sacrifices performed by women are inauspicious and not acceptable to god. They should therefore be avoided.

    The reason why I quote these is obviously not to denigrate our religion.This site looks like a place where there are quite a lot of knowledgeable people out here.I just want to see if any of you here can give a good explanation for these lines

    But regardless of whether these lines show a bias or not, I like my religion, there are too many positive things that simply outweighs all the negatives(if it is proven true)

    • Vasudevan says

      Hello Causality,

      Good point, pertinent questions, but unfortunately I do not have an answer. There are quite a few Manthras that raise such controversial points and which are not in consonance with the teachings of the Vedas found elsewhere. There is a general consensus that there has been a lot of interpolation over the ages (meaning, new verses that were not part of the original set of verses, inserted subsequently, with an ulterior motive or with a different agenda) and such verses could usuall be attributed to such interpolation.

      To state whether a given verse is actually an interpolation or not would require a great deal of research. My simple rule of thumb has been to apply the principle of non-contradiction – wherever a contradiction is found that is not in consonance with the overall message of the Vedas, I would ignore it as a “possible interpolation” and just ignore it.

    • आर्यव्रतस्थ says

      @Causility : in BG it does not say Lower Birth it says “PapaYoni” in that mantra and it relates to karma and has nothing to do with lower birth as understood by most.

      One may see that the woman “body” has to undergo more physical suffering in a lifetime than that of a male “body”, would one not ask why is it so?
      Once an individual if fully enlightened, then the body does not matter, this mantra talks about the people who are yet to reach the destination

      the authentic scriptures have to be understood and everything has to be seen in the light of the Veda, then only things fall in place.

      can yo pin point the mantra from Rg veda coz i could not find it in Mandal 8 sukta 33 and mantra 7

      http://aryasamajjamnagar.org/rugveda_v4/rugveda.htm
      (click on page 47 in lower bar, once on this link)

      Cannot Comment on Manusmurit, it has been corrupted

      om Tat Sat

      • Causality says

        Whew, that’s really huge….To be honest I’m not well versed in Sanskrit but I was given these quotes by someone else in a discussion forum called Yahoo answers

        hmm…so women are referred as papayonis because of bad karma since sufferings are a direct result of bad karma?

        But I was actually in another discussion forum where one guy was saying, when Lord Krishna mentioned papyonis, he dint say

        papayonis ,for example women
        or papayonis i.e women

        he was saying that its like ” papyonis, women” and not “papayonis,eg. women”

        But thanks for your thoughts on this :)

        • Shaas says

          Very good observation. In the Gita is, indeed, not written that papayaonis are women. It is just enumeration and all of them are fit to get enlightenment. And if they can, even the Brahmans who are concerned purely with Vedic wisdom should be easily able to reach enlightenment.

  21. Causality says

    Also what about this kind of scenario, lets says a person is very intelligent, very disciplined,has immense self control,has high moral but likes to do labor work, then is he Brahmin or Shudra or both?

    • आर्यव्रतस्थ says

      An individual can be everything,one can be a brahmin,kshatriya, vaishya and shudra. they are just facets of the society
      eg. if i am living my life discerning vedic knowledge to people i am a brahmin (else not),if i defend my country then i am kshatriya, if i do business i am vaishya and if i do chores work for the society i am shudra

  22. says

    If It is a fact abotu the caste than why the caste system is here in india. why only Brahmanas can read VEDAS, Why Brahman, Akshtriya, vaishya and Shudras are there. why the others can’t read them. Caste based politics is here in india. Marrigegs are also caste based in Aryasamaj also. it will be too good if we will adopt the vadic path in our life also.

    Dr.Sudhir Kumar Arya.

    • Vajra says

      Please read Vedas at http://www.aryasamajjamnagar.org, no one is going to stop you from accessing net. Anyone can buy Vedas from the book centers and no one is going to ask one’s so called caste. Many Muslim Maulanas after converting to Vedic Dharm became scholars of Vedas. So its not right to repeat it again and again that only Brahmin can read Vedas. Yes, there might be a few people who think they have copyright over Vedas but who cares? Vedas are for all and everyone should read and follow it.

      Thanks

  23. Abhishek says

    Dear Agniveer,

    I must thank you sincerely for the through research done by you before embarking on the task to write article on such a contenious issue. Honestly, I would have bypassed your article as just another one among hundreds of others on internet on similar topics promulgating their own viewpints. But, the timely references from puranas compelled me to give a serious thought on the validity of the text.

    Thanks again.

  24. Rama says

    You ideas could be good. But you clearly show that you lack understanding of Sanskrit and you all ideas are based on English translation. Can you quote Sanskrit text in Devanagari to all the points you have made. I am not against the point you have made, I just wanted to see whether you can cite the actual text of Vedas or not.

    • Vajra says

      Namaste Rama

      References are given with each Mantra, you can check yourself the Sanskrit text from Vedas Samhitas.

      What is your qualification in Sanskrit?

      Which English translator Agniveer have based their meanings on?

      What can you do if Agniveer show/do not show the text? Will you start believing/disbelieving Vedas?

      • Rama says

        Namaste Vajra!
        I am a firm believer of Vedic Sanatan Dharma. My qualification in Sanskrit has nothing to do with Agniveer’s. Meaning he shows are somehow derived from the Western and Some indian translators. It doesn’t matter whether he does shows text or not ? I just want to see the Sanskrit text with check whether the meaning he progpragates are in sync with actual Sanskrit text or not ? That’s it.

        BTW: When you asked this question “Will you start believing/disbelieving Vedas?”, shows that you have some hidden doubts in Vedas ?

          • KalBhairav says

            @Rama:

            I am a firm believer of Vedic Sanatan Dharma.

            Maybe. Yet, the following conclusion after a handful of back-and-forth messages seems incongruous given the statement above:

            Arguing with a semi-literate idiot is useless.

            I dont know where you are headed. It is completely unclear from your questions. But if you want to turn this into an Advaita/Dvaita/Visishtadvaita debate, may I suggest looking elsewhere on the web?

          • adolf says

            @Rama:

            You first started the argument. And you have to supply the counter proofs if you have any.Declaring agniveer as semi-literate is like fox-grapes story.

            >>Arguing with a semi-literate idiot is useless.

            It may be usefull to an idiot,like me, and it will be usefull to my muslim brothers who want to defend agniveer.

            Could you please tell us what is “usefull” and what is “useless” according to you?. Also clearly state what are you trying to gain by discussing about vedas?

          • Rama says

            I am out. Gang of idiots or the same idiot by different username. My question is for Agniveer who I think has the capacity to understand it ?

          • adolf says

            You dont need to doubt that Vajra and adolf are the same.

            If you see the comments here they easly convey that I (adolf ) does not have any knowledge of vedas or quran whereas vajras has good knowledge of both.

            Agniveer being a site owner will have many questions to answer and you have to wait for your answer. For now you can assume that the source of agniveers vedas cannot be much different from the books recommended by this site.

            I am very happy that being a dumb idiot I am discussing about vedas with a Ghana patha like yourself.

          • roger says

            @Rama

            hey prick, why can’t you ask it in ‘Ask Agniveer’ section? Can’t you see that in right side sorner of the home page? gobshite

  25. abhijeet says

    Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high.
    Where knowledge is free.
    Where the world has not been broken up into fragments
    By narrow domestic walls.
    Where words come out from the depth of truth.
    Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection.
    Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way
    Into the dreary desert sand of dead habit.
    Where the mind is led forward by Thee
    Into ever-widening thought and action.
    Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake.
    Rabindranath Tagore

  26. says

    ” avidhom shchiva vidoscha brahmano divatham “(narada smrithi 9:317)

    “A brahmin, whether he scholar or madman, believe that he is god”

    ” dushelo pi dhijo pujanitho shudro jidendriya “(parashra smrithi 8:33)

    “a brhmin Butcher is better than scholar shudra ”

    “A Brahmin equal to god, they must forcefully suppress the lower cast people make them their slaves” (manusmrithi 9:317)

    ” shakthanopi hishudrana na karyo dhan sanjaya “(manusmrithi 10:129)

    “shudra no right to education (Veda) and earn money”

    ” visrabdham brahmana srudad dravyo padanama charathe nahi thasyakthi kinjith swom barthey harodhanohisa “(manusmrithi 8:417)

    “If they (shudra) have any asset, Brahmin must forcefully recapture the entire asset from shudra”

    “If shudra talk against the Brahmin suddenly cut his Tongue, if he try to beat (action is enough) to Brahmin by his hand or leg, Brahmin suddenly cut that (hand or leg) body part as soon as possible “(manusmrithi 8:279-283)

    golwaker says about manusmrithi “this is the social law that world ever and never saw like that. None of principle likes it.”
    (Golwaker: From the Red fort grounds)

    From bagavath geetha Krishna says that”i create four castes for different quality and duty. ” chathur varnyam maya srishtom guna karma vibagasha “(bagvath geetha 4:13)

    Krishna says “different cast have different duty “(bagvath geetha 8:41-45)

    “When a Brahmin killed the shudra jailed him one year and 12 cow penalty. But in case of shruda killed the Brahmin punishment was different killed him three short period with fire”
    (gowthama dharmasuthram Ibid page-95)

    “The Hindu Veda and Upanishath never give permission to shudra, women and other low cast Hindu, to prey temple and study the Veda and science”
    (Indian Express 4-4-1988)

    “If a shudra walking with Brahmin, beat him with scourge. if he steal kill him(punishment of Brahmin only bind his eye with cloth one or two hours).if he have desire to sexual affection with Brahmin girl, first cut his sexual organ, then capture his asset, then kill him. If he hearing the Veda captures him, cut the Tongue, pour the melted lead to his ear. ”
    (Swami krishnanada: aparthed system in India page 93-95)

    NB:These verses indicate that ‘Brahmin’ is not belongs to his ‘karma’, it belongs to his ‘janma’.we can see from Upanishad “born Brahmin yoni” and “born shudra yoni”.

    Hindu religious scriptures, however, do give out the call to violence and injustice. For instance, in the Kaushithaki Brahmanopanishad Indran is quoted as saying, “Na’Mathravadena na Pithravadena nasthayena na broona hathys nasya paapam chana chakrasho mukaneelam vetheethi (3:1)
    (Even if my people were to kill their mother and father; even if they were to steal and to practice infanticide; even if they were to commit such sins, they are to feel no remorse. Their faces should never be down-cast)

    During the period of Ramayana Brahmin never died their lives. A Brahmin visits the palace of Rama; his complaint was that his son died. Raman discuss his pundit acharya,they know that a shudra(Shambukan)Penance for getting heven.Raman cut his head at mean time Brahmin boy got his life.

    What we saw from the story is Raman was an ideal person?

    There is nothing that is despicable in the legal prescription
    Of the Qur’an. However, in some of the other religious scriptures there is a clear distinction between a person of a higher caste and another of a lower caste. For example, consider the punishment prescribed by the Manu Smrithi for insult and abuse: “ The punishment for the Kshatriya who insults the Brahman is one hundred coins; for the Vaishya it will be two hundred coins and for the Shudra it will be the whip. If the Brahman were to insult the Kshatriya his punishment would be fifty coins, if he insults the vaishya it would be twenty five coins and if the Shudra, twelve coins ”
    (Manu Smrithi 8:267, 268)

    Slavery existed in ancient India as a part of the rigid caste system that prevailed here. The caste system which originated as a result of the hegemony of priesthood continued to be an essential part and way of life of Hinduism. It is in the Rig Veda which is accepted as the most important of the Shrutis that we find the first seeds of the concept of caste system. (Purusha verse of the Rig Veda 10:90:12).It was but natural that under the caste system that was based on the reference in the Rig Veda that “the Brahman is created from the head, the Vaishya from the hands and the Sudra from the feet of the Parampurusha”, the Brahman was considered highly and the Sudra of a lowly stature. All the books of Hinduism have only sought to justify the caste system.

    The Bhagavath Gita, which is known to be the book of shruthi of modern Hinduism, has itself said: “Chaturvarnyam Mayasrishtam guna karma Vibagusha
    ” (4:13). this means that, “I have created the four castes according to the division of their deeds.” It was natural then that the one who was created from the feet of God was destined to a life of foot-service alone. Indeed, it was believed that the sudra was specially created for the very purpose of service alone. The religious scriptures had taught that one is born of a lower caste owing to the sins of an earlier life and that if one is to attain salvation at least in the next life, he is to render service to those of the higher castes and employ himself in keeping them satisfied in this life.“Shreyan swdarmo viguna para dermal swanushtithal swdarmea nidanam shreya paradarmo bayavaha” (bagavath geetha 3:35). The Chandoupanishad has compared those of the lower caste to pigs
    And dogs. From the Upanishath we can understand that ‘chandalan’ and ‘shudra’are equal to street dogs. (Chandokya Upanishath 5:10:7). A reading of the Manusmrithi and the Parasharasmrithi will serve to show that the attitude and conduit adopted towards them was crueler and wicked than that shown to the animals.

    Observe the punishment prescribed by the Apasthamba Dharma Sutra:“The Sudra who kills a Brahman must be burnt to death slowly by immersing him thrice in fire. However, if a Sudra is killed by any, it would be sufficient to award one year imprisonment and a fine of twelve cows as penalty.” (As quoted by Krishnananda Swami in ‘The Caste-Wars in India’, P.94)

    All the laws in the ManuSmrithi are, in their formulation, based on the caste system. This deplorable tendency is evident throughout the laws which sanctify the position of the Brahman while, at the same time, debase that of the Sudra.Wide disparity exists in the punishment prescribed for a
    Brahman who commits a crime and the punishment for a Sudra who commits the similar one. Briefly then, these laws were not framed for the whole of humanity; they are meant for a society wherein caste system prevails.

    • False claim by Western Scholars says

      Did you know who have written this?
      It is written by the western people i.e. Max Muller.

      Max muller completed translation of vedas during 19th century.

      Muller wrote a letter to his wife, dated 1886, in which he said “The translation of the
      Veda will hereafter tell to a great extent on the fate of India and on the growth of
      millions of souls in that country. It is the root of their religion, and to show them what
      the root is, I feel sure, is the only way of uprooting all that has sprung from it during the
      last 3,000 years.”

      There was also a letter written by stephen knapp about true postion of women in vedic culture.It can be found here:-
      http://www.stephen-knapp.com/women_in_vedic_culture.htm

      I have one more site which exposes the false manusmriti written by Western scholars.

      http://hinduwisdom.info/Women_in_Hinduism.htm

      AS YOU CAN SEE MANY FEMALE GOD’S IN HINDUISM.WHAT DOES THIS INDICATE?

  27. says

    @Shabeer: Perhaps these are the only verses you know, and I know from where these are copied. You are just copying the same text to all the posts of Agniveer. And it is also clear that you don’t know any thing Vedic Philosophy, other wise you could have easily known what is Shruti and what is Smriti. And your attitude is very clear, you don’t want to understand the truth.

    Man, in entire Vedas, you won’t find any word at par with Slaves. In Islam you will find a word par with slave, the master can rape them, they can not raise question, they will not be paid for their service, they can be sold in the markets like an animal, they can be bitten.

    You will find slaves in Christianity too.

    But so far as Shudras are concerned, you have to pay them for the services they will render, you can not rape them, you can not beat them, you can not sell them in the market…. So, they are not slaves as said in Islam or Bible.. They are human like us.

    You have quoted a chapter from Rig Veda, the Purusha Suktam, and quoted the translation made by a christian preacher, which has been proved to be wrong translation.

    In the said Chapter, it is said that, Adi Purusha offered himself to the Yajna, and his mouth became Brahmins, Hands became Khatriyas, similarly feet became Shudras. It is very clear that is if you see the whole universe as a human, shudras are the feet.. And without foot the unverse can not even walk…

    But you fools always try to find out any mistake in Vedas to feel happy that you fools are superior.. If you can find the quote in Vedas that creates difference, cant you see the quoran whgich contents only hatred among people nothing else ??? Go and read your quoran, and if you cant find any mistake there, you are not a human.. Because you are devoid of any sort of logic.

  28. says

    @ Shabeer : Even after reading the above post, if you are bearing the same concept regarding Hinduism, then you are nothing but a fool, who is not able to see the truth.

    And keep those stupid thoughts with you,

    @Agniverr : I thought this site is for those persons who want to know the truth.. I don’t understand what such fools are doing here.. Hope you will not allow such fools to come amongst the truth seekers..

  29. abhijeet says

    55 per cent of all Brahmins lived below the poverty line — below a per capita income of Rs 650 a month. Since 45 per cent of the total population of India is officially stated to be below the poverty line it follows that the percentage of destitute Brahmins is 10 per cent higher than the all-India figure.

    There is no reason to believe that the condition of Brahmins in other parts of the country is different. In this connection it would be revealing to quote the per capita income of various communities as stated by the Karnataka finance minister in the state assembly: Christians Rs 1,562, Vokkaligas Rs 914, Muslims Rs 794, Scheduled castes Rs 680, Scheduled Tribes Rs 577 and Brahmins Rs 537.

    Appalling poverty compels many Brahmins to migrate to towns leading to spatial dispersal and consequent decline in their local influence and institutions. Brahmins initially turned to government jobs and modern occupations such as law and medicine. But preferential policies for the non-Brahmins have forced Brahmins to retreat in these spheres as well.

  30. karamchandra9188 says

    There is no such thing as Brahminism. There is only the pernicious, brutal creed of Churchism that is based on an ancient hoax. Every ideology that originated from barren lands lying to the West of India — Islam, Xianity, Communism — is soaked in human blood. These races had no tradition or training in spirituality. All they could invent in its name were these monsters.

    Churchism is propagated by a self-perpetuating, self-aggrandizing organisation called the Church which is strictly controlled by the White man. It has amassed billions of dollars in the Vatican bank and its officials now go around in private jets, investing the money in stock markets for profit. The Church is a money-making criminal enterprise run by a closed gang of Whites. It is capable of inflicting horrifying brutality on Christians themselves, as evident by the Inquisition. It is held temporarily in check because since 19th century, governments of Christian countries no longer cooperate with it and provide their soldiers to torture their own citizens in the name of the “Lord.”

    Christianity is an intolerant creed that does not recognise the right of any other faith to exist. We are simply asking Hindus to be tolerant with the intolerant. Anything that claims “our god is true, your god is false” and “my way or the highway” and “I am saved, you are doomed” is an enemy of humanity. It is the duty of every right-thinking person to thwart these ideologies which have caused so much death and destruction to the world through their brainwashed, zombie-like followers who can go on a killing spree at a moment’s notice.

    Brown Indians like we are merely useful idiots for the Whites and their Church. Xianity is nothing but a tool to promote white man’s culture and hegemony in other lands. That is why, the pope will always be a White man while black and brown fools will only get to carry White man’s names for ourself and our children. we will merely be the foot-soldiers collecting tithe and sending it to White man’s coffers and helping the…

  31. manavendra9953 says

    Hinduism is a militarised religion — all Hindu gods carry arms. Hindus until 1857 were fighting bloody wars with Muslims and Xians who had invaded their homeland. It is Gandhi’s rise, engineered by the cunning British and missionaries, that defanged and de-militarised the Hindu race through phoney non-violence. The ill effects of that deranged man on Hindus are still visible. Hindus have become passive and ashamed of themselves. It is time to get rid of Gandhi, a British stooge, and rediscover our sword. But this can never happen until Congress lives in India. It still follows British Raj policies.

    • Akhila says

      @manavendra9953: You are confused about Hinduism. Hinduism believes on Shastra as well as on Shaastra. Both Knowledge and Power. Thats why the Devi and Devatas carry arms as well as musical instruments and Books in their Hands. Hinduism stands for Peace, thats why Devi and Devatas carry flowers in their hands.

      And what is congress man ??? All the political parties of India are vote centric, and they know a trinity – SC/ST/Muslim…. They are polarised. If you leave them others count only less than 25%. Even if being minor, we are not united. So we are not effective in Indian Politics. Thats why BJP which openly supports us is out of power. If we will be united and start polarising the votes, all parties will run for us.

      • says

        Adolf : You are right… There are many Devatas they dont hold arms, Devi Sarasati hold Veena and Veda, where as Devi Durga holds arms… This shows all variety of needs of human. We should be strong at the same time we must be learned. Vishnu holds a flower as well as arms. Depicting peace and symbolizes if necessary use arms.

  32. khemchandra9188 says

    The Constitution mandated that a portion of government jobs and seats in legislatures be reserved for adivasis. As with the untouchables, this was a matter of compensatory justice: a case of Hindus making up in the present for the crimes they had committed in the past.
    - Jaipal Singh Munda: January, 1903 – March, 1970. A distinguished parliamentarian, a sportsman of international repute, an educationist, a politician with great vision and courage, a powerful orator with mastery over multiple national and foreign languages, a multi-faceted personality.

  33. rabrav says

    I would like to quote “the real Abhishek” here:

    ————-
    ‘Vedas’ is mostly
    1. singing hymns in praise of “God”
    2. Justification of rituals and yagnas in pleasing weather-gods and other demi-god deities.
    3. Singing praise of “chants”
    4. Singing praise of fire and sacrifice.

    (Note that Brahma-Vishnu-Mahesh were born much afterwards. They were given “birth” by Zoroaster. The Vedic Aryans plagiarized Zoroaster’s Trinity. There are linguistic and archaeological evidences to support my claim. The other interesting Gods like Lakshmi and Ganesh were “born” much later – somewhere during the composition of Puranas)

    I will just take a comic detour – The word “daeva” is an Iranian word for “liar”. In the Iranian language “Ahura Mazda” is (approximately) “highest wisdom”. The Iranians called themselves “ahuric” and called the Vedic Aryans “daevas”. The Vedic Aryans called their God-kings daevas ["Gods"] and the Iranian God-kings as “asuras” (derived from ahura.) ["demons"]
    So, there is some divine comedy even in deepest tragedies.
    ——————

    P.S. this comment is an excerpt of “The real Abhishek” ‘s comments on the passionForCinema blog post titled “in-defence-of-the-i” authored by Anurag Kashyap. I found Abhishek’s comments on Ayn Rand and hinduism interesting

    • adolf says

      @rabrav,
      The author can have his opinion. As vedas speak on many things people can see what they want to see in vedas. Advaitans see vedas as pointing to the atman, where as dvaita people see mention of gods in vedas. The idea of vishnu and shiva are not a later addition to vedas, shiva as rudra and vishnu as hiranyagarbha are present from the start of vedas(if we interpret cronologically).

  34. khemchandra9188 says

    It is true that in time the caste system has become perverted, as Sri Aurobindo also noted : “it is the nature of human institutions to degenerate; there is no doubt that the institution of caste degenerated. It ceased to be determined by spiritual qualifications which, once essential, have now come to be subordinate and even immaterial and is determined by the purely material tests of occupation and birth… By this change it has set itself against the fundamental tendency of Hinduism which is to insist on the spiritual and subordinate the material and thus lost most of its meaning. the spirit of caste arrogance, exclusiveness and superiority came to dominate it instead of the spirit of duty, and the change weakened the nation and helped to reduce us to our present condition…(India’s Rebirth, p 27) Today, the abuses being done in the name of caste are often horrifying, specially to a Westerner brought up on more egalitarian values. Some of the backward villages of Tamil Nadu, or Bihar for instance, still segregate Harijans and the lower castes, who do not have the same access to educational facilities than the upper castes, in spite of Nehru’s heavy-handed quota system, which has been badly taken advantage off.
    Francois Gautier, born in Paris in 1950, is a French journalist and writer

  35. shravak says

    Dalit boycott by Muslims leaves Gujarat’s Sanand village edgy
    http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_dalit-boycott-by-muslims-leaves-gujarat-s-sanand-village-edgy_1565010

    For 500 odd dalits in Andej village which has a population of over 5,000, buying 1 kg rice is a 30 km return journey.This is despite the fact that there are a dozen odd shops in the village laden with all the goods they need. The tragedy is that they are refused even a rickshaw ride, though they have money to afford one!

    The social boycott of the dalit families here by the dominant Muslim community, has made life miserable for them.

    The Muslim boycott of the backward communities started on July 1 after a scuffle between two groups in which a dalit was left with a fracture in the left hand. The injured man lodged a police complaint under the Prevention of Atrocities Act against those who had assaulted him.

    This upset the majority population of the village. It was soon followed bya verbal fatwa warning the auto-drivers of the community that they would be fined Rs2,000 if they ferried a dalit community passenger.

    The gorcery shops followed suit. Andej has some 700 Muslim and 100 dalit families, includingShenwa, Valmiki and Rohit communities. There are around 40 Patel families in the village too.

    Since July 1, 2011, the 100 backward communities including Dalits have been boycotted by the Muslims of the village and are allegedly not allowed to purchase anything from the public market. They are also not allowed to use the local transport system which is dominated by Muslim auto-drivers from the village.

    The 100 families are forced to use other means of transport which are much most costly. The village has around 15 Shenwa and 60 Rohit community families. Both these communities are considered backward even among the Dalit communities.

    “We are not allowed to purchase anything from the local market,” Shankar Shenwa told DNA. “They (Muslims) have announced a penalty of Rs2000 on any Muslim driver who allows us to sit in his…

      • says

        Brother Shravak

        Your post exposes the truth behind Islamic equality for humans.

        Your comment remained incomplete may be due to exceeding the word limit. Please post the remaining portion too.

        Thanks for the enlightening post..

    • shravak says

      ah apologise brother Vajra, here is the continuation…

      vehicle,” Shankar added. The scuffle that led to the atrocity case and the boycott took place after Shankar’s brother, Manu Shenwa, was accused of stealing stones meant for some construction work in the village being carried out by one Hussain Khokhar.”Khokhar came to my house, asked me about the stones, and then started beating me. Later other people joined him,” Manu told DNA. He said that Khokhar, along with five other people, had assaulted him and fractured his left hand.

      An atrocity case was eventually filed by Manu. This precipitated a boycott of all the backward communities of the village by the majority Muslim community.Fatu Rehmu, sarpanch of Andej Gram Panchayat, was not available for his comment but, her husband, who handles all the activities of the panchayat, told DNA that it was true that the Muslim auto-drivers were boycotting the backward communities.

      “But they are doing this because they do not want any conflict between the two communities. It is best to avoid people from these communities if there is a possibility of conflict,” he said. However, he denied that members of the backward community were being prevented from purchasing anything from the local market.Suresh Jadhav, a local Dalit activist, told DNA that when they tried to intervene and sort out the matter, Muslim families said that they would do so only on the condition that the atrocity case was withdrawn.

  36. Sameer Hayat says

    Hi Agniveer,

    By birth I am a Muslim and belongs to very conservative Shia Muslim family, but not following Islam from last 6 years, left meat and celebrating eid and other festivals. My father told me that we converted in 17th century. I am interested to go back to my original religion, I read satyarth prakash and it enlightened me, but the only question is abt my future, In what cast I will be moved, what abt my marriage etc. Please suggest.

    Sameer

    • says

      Namaste Brother,

      The fact that you have decided to come back to your natural original religion in sufficient to bring the conversion. So the conversion has already happened. However to mark it symbolically so that it pegs you to the resolve of having Vedic standards in life, we can have a simple ceremony. As for your future – your caste will remain the same – human being. As per Vedas, all human beings are one caste. If you are talking about Brahmin, Shudra etc, that purely depends on your directions in life. If you are illiterate, you would be a Shudra. But assuming that you are educated (or else you would not have written this comment or read Satyarth Prakash!), you would be Brahmin if you are in education sector, Kshatriya if in defense sector and Vaishya if commercial sector. You don’t need any certificate to have you approved in any Varna. It is just a nomenclature.

      As for marriage, as a male human being, you are allowed to marry any female human being of your choice who is not a close relative. You can marry a girl of any religion, region or community but it is recommended that you both are compatible, have similar hygeine and food habits, and have common directions for future. No one can act as a judge to dictate whom you can marry and whom you cannot. You can continue with your old name or have a new name whatever suits you best. If you decide for a new name and a simple ceremony as event for your change in life, we can assist you and sponsor the same. So while the conversion has already happened for you through knowledge, there is a lot you can do to celebrate this conversion through worthwhile actions. We would be glad to assist you with further details on anything that you would like to know further on this.

      Dhanyavad
      Admin

      • KalBhairav says

        Great response!

        Hinduism is completely unrelated to man-made caste divisions based on birth.

        @Sameer:

        Welcome to Hinduism. You neednt worry about which caste you want to convert into. You neednt take my words for it. Here’s what Ashtavakra told Janaka:

        “Na Tvam Vipradiko Varno Nashrami…
        You do NOT belong to any caste or to any asrama.”

        You are beyond all that. Good luck!

  37. vkt says

    CASTE Vs VARNA Vs JATI
    The original meaning of Jati was different in Ancient Bharatvarsha, than what it is today.

    In Bharatvarsha, there were many Jatis like Deva-jati, Manava-jati, Rakshasa-jati, Vanara-jati. There were some foreign Jatis like Javanas, Asuras.

    The Bharatiya Sanskriti originated in Devabhumi Himalayas, and ancient language was Deva-bhasa Sanskrita, and script is Deva-nagari. From one Jati, other different Jatis has originated from long time as population increased.

    (The Aryan Race Theory was invented by the British for their own gain which is proved wrong after people found that the North & South Indians originated from the same Gene. No where in the vedas and other ancient Indian text the terms Aryan used to refer to a race or classification. Aryan in Sanskrit means Nobleman.)

    Jati is broader term it refers to any broader classification like: Manava-Jati, Deva-Jati, Rakshasa-jati, Vanara-jati., Nara-Jati, Pashu-Jati etc. But this Jati is based on birth in particular beings & origin. but this is not related to Caste. All Indians belong to same Bharatiya Sanskriti.

    Varana is the Real caste based on Accupation(work) and Aptitude/Gunas. Varna is the social order based on Accupation(work) and Aptitude/Gunas.

    (What do you think of this possibility: A person is ksatriyas(Warrior or administrative class)according to Varna and according to Jati the same person is Vaisya(mercantile) or sudra(Labour) or Brahmana is this possible?. No, right!. )

    People with different occupation to do different services (or job) is required in the Society, without this society cannot run so 4 social classifications(Varna) are made according to one’s Aptitude/skills & Work but not based on Birth. Every Person & every Caste have to be given Respect. Everyone is the Individual Soul & everyone is Spiritual and everyone is doing their service to the society.

  38. vkt says

    Is Caste just a Social classification on Work & Aptitude?

    Scriptures says Every Person have to be given Respect. Everyone is the Individual Soul & everyone is Spiritual.

    But what is Caste/Varna/Jati?
    People with different occupation to do different services (or job) is required in the Society, without this society cannot run so 4 classifications are made according to one’s Aptitude/skills & Work but not based on Birth. By doing job/Serving according to ones Aptitude/Skills/Guna one has to reach to higher levels by purification. But this varna is not to divide people.

    Bhagavad Gita Slokas 4.13, 18.41 to 47 its is given clearly that Varana(Caste) is based on Occupation and Quality. But people who are claiming their caste based on Birth, this is misinterpretation & wrong.

    (Anyway in the normal world also it’s followed indirectly as classifications like Labours, workers, TL, manager, CEO, President based on their own qualification/Aptitude & work but not based on Birth. Anyway CEO / President is known as higher then Labours /workers)

    Vedas, Bhagavad Gita mentions Chapter 4 sloka 13: (4.13): Caste is based on Occupation(work) and Aptitude/Gunas, but not based on Birth.

    One’s caste is based on his Occupation & Aptitude(Qualities) but not based on his Fathers or Grandfathers occupation or Aptitude. If a Person is working as worker, Businessman, engineer, Labor or Farmer he cannot claim himself as Warriors, Leaders, Kings or Ksatriya’s, Even though his grandfathers were Warriors, Leaders, or Ksatriya’s because his caste is based on his Occupation and his Aptitude, Guna. Ones caste will be same as his ancestors only if he is doing the same work and he has same Gunas as his ancestors.

    Jati is broader term it refers to any broader classification like: Manava-Jati, Deva-Jati, Rakshasa-jati, Vanara-jati., Nara-Jati, Pashu-Jati etc. But this Jati is based on birth in particular beings & origin. but this is not related to Caste. All Indians belong to same Bharatiya Sanskriti.

    Every Person &…

  39. vkt says

    @Agniveer….

    I completely agree with you on explanation of Jaati, this is perfect right. And also I agree that Varna is the real caste(social division), with reference to Bhagavad Gita as follows :

    Bhagavad Gita mentions Chapter 4 sloka 13: (4.13): Caste is based on Occupation(work) and Aptitude/Gunas, but not based on Birth.

    Bhagavad -Gita 4.13: “According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created.”
    These divisions are brahmanas(Priest), ksatriyas(Warrior or administrative class), vaisyas(mercantile class), sudras(laborer class).

    “Truth alone triumphs”

    • krishnarao says

      Cast is not the dividing up of society based on profession, but the make up the unified society where anyone can move or even be part of multiple professions. All the Vedas are doing is describing the make up of any society for it to function. These are just components of any society. I never read anywhere in the Vedas that talk about discrimination based on your profession or anything. Nor did I read anywhere that someone is born into a profession. It is totally equal. And if you believe otherwise, please quote from the Vedas a reputable translation supported by people who actually practice what the Vedas say.

      • krishnarao says

        And also there is no word called caste in the Vedas. I read the Vedas and no where can I find the word caste anywhere in it. It is a foreign word to the Vedas. Be Educated.

      • krishnarao says

        Varnas is not the dividing up of society by profession, but describing the different components of society that unite society.

  40. krishnarao says

    And from my understanding of the Vedas, people are not support refer to themselves as Brahmins or Sudhras or anything. When I read the Vedas I never read the Vedas say to refer to yourself as Brahmin or Sudhra. I just view the four systems as a way to understand the society’s structure. That is all the system is. Just a way to understand the structure of a society, and people have corrupted it to mean something else. We need to stop this non-sense and view every Dharmic person as a brother and sister.

  41. Soumya Dhawan says

    Come on, This whole article is a pathetic attempt to elevate religious documents. Who gives a shit what the vedas said? They were written by ignorant people over 3000 years ago and should not be a basis for any sort of morality. The fact is it is easy to see that discrimination and hatred on the basis of birth is wrong, and it is IRRELEVANT whether the vedas support or condone that. Its like saying Aristotle never said innocent kids should be tortured, HENCE innocent kids should not be tortured, and hence everything else Aristotle said must be true even though we now know he was wrong about a lot of things.

    • Ankur says

      Somya Dhawan,
      little knowledge is dangerous thing,It is assumed (by most of the Indians too like yourself who do not have a cultural identity except a name/passport) (proliferated by the indologists ) that the birth based discrimination is an entity derived from the vedas , the same has been rebutted here.

      • Soumya Dhawan says

        No, i do not believe “that the birth based discrimination is an entity derived from the vedas”….I have a functioning brain……..but my point, which you so graciously missed, was that debunking this myth does not give any more credibility to a 3000 year old text as a basis for lifestyle.

        • SDC says

          Who decides what should be the basis of one’s lifestyle? Which text/texts according to you should be basis/bases for one’s lifestyle?

          • Soumya Dhawan says

            I dont need any texts to be the basis of my life-style you pea-brain. I use LOGIC and REASONING.
            I dont need a book to tell me its wrong to discriminate.
            and yes i am an atheist

          • SDC says

            Discrimination is not an evil quality by itself. It is what is being discriminated against is what can be classified as being right or wrong: to elucidate this point further, everyone should be able to discriminate between what is corrupt and what is not. Now, this quality is not acquired overnight just like that. You have to acquaint yourself with ideas, opinions, beliefs, etc. of different shades and hues to be able to hone this quality. And of course, reading of texts is one of the most potent ways of striking up that acquaintanceship. BTW, it is far better being a pea-brain than being a brainless retard.

    • SDC says

      Just would like to know if you are an atheist or one of those “secular” hypocrites who go on with their vitriolic anti-hindu rant for reasons best known to them.

      How were these “ignorant people” able to write treatises in Sanskrit?

      Well, you seem to be in the habit of looking at the glass half empty. Aristotle maybe was wrong about a lot of things, but he sure was right about at least a few things if I am not mistaken.

  42. Soumya Dhawan says

    and i am not using ignorant as a pejorative term…..they weren’t ignorant about language but they certainly were ignorant about science, philosophy, medicine as was everybody else in that time.

    • SDC says

      Now, this is the height of ignorance. You have a plenty of catching up to do. Do you even the understand the meaning of the term “ignorant”? Probably, you don’t. It is your deep-seated animosity that is on full display. Anyways, you can live in your make-believe world. I ain’t wake up you up. Sweet dreams!

  43. mahantesh says

    sir even i had the same notion of varna..now jaati. but seriously its hard to tell the people who are still sitting on the top saying that they are brahmin…but how do we tell those people about it.

    • SDC says

      See Mahantesh if wrongs have been committed, there is no point hiding behind frail defenses. Such defenses will eventually collapse, but you will have to put things into the proper perspective. People have throughout history killed each other, humiliated each other, and done terrible things to each other. Indians were definitely no exception to this phenomenon. But if somebody exclusively targets us for being solely responsible for the crimes against humanity, you just need to show them the mirror. Even atheists are no exception: Remember the fate of devout Tibetans at the hands of the atheistic communist regime of China. Also, Joseph Stalin’s atheistic regime killed tens of millions of people. So, do we blame atheism for all these crimes?

      When it comes to the Varna system, a lot has been said by Agniveer. It was never meant to be rigid. It was basically a division of labor and not of society but eventually things got murkier down the line and caused irreparable damage to the faith. The onus is on us to make sure that the misgivings about this system are dispelled.

  44. Shashi says

    I want to thank you for providing a venue to discuss, dialogue, debate, inquire and have different view points for reflection. I truly appreciate it. Thank you!

  45. KK says

    love this site..has answered so many of my doubts.

    wld like to say 1 thing.from what i have read abt my religion n the facts put forward till now.
    the beauty abt it is its so open minded n is actually not a religion but way of life,for u n ur brothers(humanity)
    humanity sld be the religion.
    a muslim,christian etc. anyone can be a hindu u dont need conversion.
    sad that it has been manipulated n corrupted like others(islam, Christianity etc. )
    all are gd,its just that they have been corrupted by MAN for his purpose.

    agniveer
    Just curious how r u able to keep this site growing.ur own money or donations.
    also where did u get all ur info.do u know Sanskrit or have read frm a translation.

    • krishnarao says

      From my understanding Agniveer is not one person. It is made up of many many many many people both men and women. And donations are from people like you and me and many more. It isn’t funded by some billionaire, although it would be nice to. It is a grass root movement by frustrated Dharmic people who want to live a better life. Who are sick of the power hungry extremist forces from outside of India and extremist government in India trying to corrupt Dharmic values and principles. The people are not just fighting us, they are fighting with Dharam, the power of GOD. And every time those forces of destruction attack Dharam, they are just helping Dharmic groups like Angiveer grow. You my friend are proof of such a powerful movement.

  46. sasha says

    the young generation(19-25 yrs @2012) will definitely understand mr.angiveer ji’s vedic facts, but for their happiness, it is their parents who should start thinking of all this casteism, or else there would not b any kind of change in d society, which discriminates ppl based on their caste…

  47. Pramod kumar says

    There is chance even to misuse the truth, by selfish guys. Ved means light,knowledge and ultimate truth.Present form of varn/caste system is not competitive like pristine time where every varn is to be earned and not attained by virtue of biological birth accident.Let’s practice the real form of the system in true spirit as per vedic knowledge.Thanks——

  48. radhakrishna says

    BULL SHIT and STUPID article..preaching KARMANTRA PRAVISTA..This vedic civilization of BHARAT is over now and the time if of VARNA SANKARAS as per GITA..now TWICE BORNS, DWIJATI are themselves involved in the production of such BASTARD progenies. And oh sorry, VARNA is by BIRTH only. Ther are ample references to prove that BRAHMAN,KSHATRIYA, VAISHYA,SHUDR is by birth and birth alone. But then, scriptrues are always read with a BIASED against BRHAMANS first, then BASTARD PROGENIES want to show that ALL ARE ONE, a stupid and foolish concept, always preaching ADHARMA through KARMANTRA PRAVITSTA, which is even a grave and bigger sin than foresaking the VARNA DHARMA.

    • krishnarao says

      I know you are not a Hindu or a Vedic person. I know you are probably a Christian or muz rat trying to breakup and spread hate between Dharmic people. Seriously your disgusting tricks will no longer work with us. Dharmic people are uniting and one family and no longer believe in caste in India or anywhere. Everyday castes of different backgrounds are uniting.

    • says

      Hmmm. Could you enlighten us how do we verify that the author of this comment in name of Radhakrishna is himself a Brahmin and not a Bastard progeny? Because as per (ill)logic of this commenter, only those born as Brahmins have special sanskaars to understand and propagate Vedic truths and now most of us are BASTARDS. So let we all be first convinced that the writer is not a Bastard himself, as per his own line of ideology. SOme DNA reports would be more authoritative than empty rhetorics. As per our definition, those who insult others as BASTARDS and those who believe that those born in so-called Shudra families cannot study Vedas are the real Chandals. They deserve to be thrown out into jungles. Agniveer movement is committed to destroy the very essence of such shamefully stupid ideologies from very root. If we are wrong, first bring DNA proofs to verify your eligibility to comment on Vedas if you believe that Vedas are only for birth-based Brahmins.

    • krishnarao says

      “Discrimination is wrong weather it was base on birth wise or profession wise.”

      Agreed. and it is also wrong based on race or if you are a man or women or if you a minority religion, like Hindu or Sikh, in the middle east including Saudi arabia, pakistan, iran, iraq, egypt, or any other country.

  49. Rajiv says

    this article is well down. thank you for clearing my confusion. now can you prove these points. give us actual proofs from the vedas, like hymns and verse where you found this.

  50. Neerav Kothari says

    Is meat (other than cow) eating in general allowed in Hinduism or Vedas or not?

    My understanding is that a body requires a good balance of Stavik, Rasvik and Tamsik food depending on whether our body is vaat, pith or kapha..

    please comment…

    • Prophet says

      @dogra
      You should not waste time to debunk the kufrs. They are doing their duty for which they get money from their Arab Masters. Ali Sina can handle them single handedly. We need to propagate Vedic Knowledge to the grass root level. Ali Sina is Hanuman of this era and Agniveer have to play role of Rama TO kill the Islamism from the people heart.

      • dogra says

        Think would be better to provide a rebuttal to verses they have used, to give them no leg to stand on, not that they have a secure leg in the first place.
        Their attemptes are lame, but good to have rebuttal for the masses

  51. D. Tushaar says

    First thing i would like to ask you… if there is no cast system,then what are the 4 spiritual and physical classes in vedas?
    2 Can you explain me the term varna asram from the vedas?
    3. You said that a brahmin who doesn’t complete brahmic education is classified as a sudra. Well its not a sudra but is called Dvija-bandhu
    4. I don’t find the title suitable to this article,You are discussing about cast system but the title mention cast system does not exist,you could have told us precisely your opinion of why it doesn’t exist,you should not have debated about the cast system if you don’t believe it exists

  52. D. Tushaar says

    First thing i would like to ask you… if there is no cast system,then what are the 4 spiritual and physical classes?
    Can you explain me the term varna asram from the vedas?
    3. you said that a brahmin who doesn’t complete brahmic education is classified as a sudra. Well its not a sudra but is called Dvija-bandhu
    4. I don’t find the title suitable to this article,You are discussing about cast system but the title mention cast system does not exist,you could have told us precisely your opinion of why it doesn’t exist,you should not have debated about the cast system if you don’t believe it exists

    • Ankur says

      @D.Tushaar : Actually the word “Caste” is no where in the indian scriptures. there is only the jati and varna.
      for the varna system read Satyarth prakash by Swami dayanand.

  53. Aditya says

    Respected Agniveer Ji !
    AND PRANAMS ANYONE WHO READS THIS
    I have a doubt. I hope you are aware of Abhivaadaya (A verse stating the Lineage and identity of a person).
    Now let us assume a Shudra becomes a Brahamin by occupation ,
    1) Can He perform Vedic Rites
    2)What Veda will he follow ?
    3)What will his abhivadaaya contain? (ie. What rishi, sutra ,adhyaaya….)
    Actually I am a Brahamin and all the vedic rites require the recital of Abhivaadaya . Moreover a person is considered as a Brahamin only If he does Sandhyavandhanam (But nowadays So called BRAHAMINS DON’T DO IT )
    So again if you don’t do Sandhyavandhanam , you are not a Brahamin.
    But My sanskrit Master said that One family ceases to become Brahamin ,if 3 successive generations don’t do sandhyavandhanam .
    Now Again , Will that person be able to initiate upanayanam to his son ?
    Can you clarify these Doubts

    • says

      Adityaji

      All these are manmade rules and not confirmed by Vedas. In a society facing lots of flux, less of scientific education and having significant information asymmetry, these may have served some role. But among enlightened ones, these rules are redundant. For example, as children, you are taught to hold hands of your elder while walking on streets. But if you continue the same even as a 25 years old, that would be sign of psychological problems.

      The basis of Vedic religion is reasoning. The basis of current religion being propagated as Hinduism is “follow snippets from history at expense of reason’. So you do something simply because it is written somewhere or someone good in Sanskrit told you this. This is antithesis of Vedic religion. Had it worked, would not our society have been the most powerful lighthouse of world today?

      In reality, every person is Shudra, Vaishya, Kshatriya or Brahmin depending on his mindset and tasks he is doing at any point in time. So these Varnas represented properties. But if one focuses on one kind of activities, he is termed a particular Varna. Over period, job roles became more complex and dynamic. So this classification for each person became difficult. So they associated it with birth. This was a step backwards. This was like refusing to solve a problem because it is tough. This then started all these fake emphasis on birth-based rites etc. Vedas mention none of them.

      So every human can perform Vedic rites. Every human should follow all the Vedas to whatever extent he can. Following does not mean recitation, but trying to understand meaning, and implement in life. Abhivadaaya is a later day creation. But if one wants, he can choose any of his choice depending on which sukta appeals him more.

      Sandhya is compulsory for all as a good practice. But in later days because people started flouting the rule, they restricted it to birth-based Brhamins as a practical compulsion. But now a small minority alone does so, but they still are Brahmins! This itself debunks birth-based caste system.

      Ask your master how does one prove that one is Brahmin or not. If one ceases to be Brahmin simply by not doing Sandhya for 3 generations, then one can become Brahmin also by doing Sandhya for 3 generations? Why not? What is the evidence for or against?

      Why 3 generations? Why not 1 generation? Why not right now? WHo decided on three? What is the proof that this statement is given by God? Why should we believe in it? Cross question and you shall get your answers.

      • Aditya says

        AgniveerJi !!
        About the 3 generations , My teacher gave me an example (It is kind of long)
        It was a common scene in the families of Indians (but not now) to have Great Grand parents . Our parents and elders play a very crucial role in molding us . We pay keen attention to them from a very small age and try to ape them . He gave me a Logical example for this 3 generation.
        Now let us assume that there are 4 characters A(Great grand father) , B(Grand father) , C (Father) and D (Son)
        Now if A,B and C Being Brahamins , do not do sandhyavandhanam (It is supposed to be the most important Duty of a Brahamin ) there is no way that D can actually learn to Do sandhyavandhanam .
        During the initiation of Upanayanam , we consider our father as our Guru and he is the person who teaches us basic things like Sandhyavandhanam , Samithadhanam ,Gayatri Japa ,etc. Now If no elders follow any of the Vedic practices , Logically D has no access to these .

        I can Give a live example of My own Life.
        My Great Grand father did sandhyavandhanam , But my Grand father did not do sandhyavandhanam (I don’t know for what reason ) , But my Father does Sandhyavandhanam and even I do it. The reason why 3 generations is used is because even if B and C do not do sandhyavandhanam , D can learn it from A (Great Grand Father) but If 3 generations (ie. A, B and C ) do not do it , D has no access to these .He won’t have any one asking him to do these things nor will any one teach him the importance of these .

        **************************************************************************************************************
        My View Point;- (PLEASE GUIDE ME ON THIS AND POINT OUT FLAWS IN THEM)

        I feel both Birth Based cast System and Occupation based cast system seems to be logical .
        For. Eg. A person born in a Brahamin family has “more PROBABILITY” of being a Brahamin and moreover this sounds like a Fruit of your previous deeds (ie. Karma) . So going by the theory of Karma , we get the fruit of our previous births. This comes in the form of talents , opportunities and Luck .
        A BRAHAMIN KID has MORE OPPORTUNITIES to be exposed to the VEDAS than a kid who is born in a Shudra Family . Now the Karma can be the ONLY reason why he is born into a Brahamin family .
        Now It is upto the Kid to utilize that opportunity or waste it . But his decision determines his Varna later on . ie. His his GROWN as a Brahamin Kid (following the vedic practices) but turns into another Varna because of his decision .
        CONCLUSION :- A PERSON IS BORN INTO A VARNA , BUT HE HAS THE DECISION TO CHANGE IT . SO BOTH BIRTH BASED AND OCCUPATION BASED VARNA IS LOGICAL .

        And is the DHARMASHASTRA shruti or smriti . Can you quote few lines from that to make me understand much better .

        P.S.
        Agniveer Ji, don’t add a suffix “Ji” to my name . It makes me sound much older . I am just 18.

        Thanks in Advance.

        • says

          The dangers of probability based systems is that they are too brutal for the exceptional ones. If you have good family, you have more probability to be good. You can be good even without anyone formally embracing you as brahmin or whatever. But what about the exceptions where one is born to Shudra but is brahmin by deeds. Why should he wait for 3 generations? If one is Brahmin or Shudra or whatever, who are others to give certificate for that? And who certifies these others?

          Ask your teacher if a Shudra can become Brahmin in 3 generations? If yes, then caste is not birth-based but 3 generation based as per your teacher. If yes, then what is the proof that forefathers of brahmins of today were not Shudras 1000 years ago? Such systems are good for people who cannot understand and manage complex systems. For someone who can walk probably will reach his goal faster by running a bit. But for someone who knows how to drive a car, it would be a foolish decision to still waste time walking when he can reach 100 km in 2 hours.

          Just analyze and you shall get your answers.

      • Aditya says

        One more doubt. Sorry.

        In favour of Birth Based Varna System :-
        A person is born into a varna based on his karma . So he enjoys or surfers based on It. So Birth based Varna system works on the basis of Karma

        • dogra says

          Good discussion betwen Aditya and Agniveer

          Birth based caste, made the social evil of caste we have today and this social evil must be vanquished so that each individual fullhy understands that they can become whatever their dreams take them, and with training and educztion they can become that which they dream and want.

          We belong to one caste: Human.

  54. krishnarao says

    Wow, you claim you are a Dr., but your words show that you are totally uneducated. You talk about show science, but all your statements don’t show an ounce of science or proof. They were just simple empty statements to talk bad about Vedic people. You really are a sad person who chooses to attack everyone here. You need to grow up and act like a man for once. Why don’t you stop faking that you are some doctor and state your real name and profession. You proved to everyone you are a fake and a joke. Your hate speech is just that, pure and utter hate and filth.

  55. karunajeevan says

    It is a fake essay written by someone. Brhimins are th criminals of India and Arayans invaded India.And they slowly slowly enslaved the Dravidians the originals of India. Brhimins and Arayans coperated with Brahmins for Sects or varnas, they also coined scripture in order to follow the slavery or caste system.
    The Brahmins have to be punished for their criminal activites of castism. India needs agood Hitler in order to hang all the caste providers especially the Brhmins

    • Aditya says

      Well!!
      Your logic is as stupid as you. Why the hell do you need to kill the Brahamins now ?? What did this people do?? Going by your logic , You should have killed the English , French and all other colonizers and you should have bombed persia and Afghanistan .
      This is a forum for intellectual & healthy discussion and not a place for propagating your DK ideas .
      @Admin, Please block these kinds of commenters who show no sense of intellectuality in their comments and people who show haterid.

    • Arun says

      A Hitler for India? You are calling for genocide. This is hate speech of the worst kind. Shame on you. You stupidly think there are no South Indians who consider Sanatana Dharma theirs as much as any North Indian. It was not until the British did any Indian consider themselves two different races. Aryan and Dravidian are both terms coined by British and they were originally terms to categorize languages not races. The Aryan invasion theory has long been debunked. You are spewing nothing but outdated nonsense that missionaries peddle to get Hindus to hate their ancestral faith and convert.

  56. lover boy says

    बुजदिल हैं जो शिकायत किया करते हैं
    औरों से बस सवाल किया करते हैं
    जिन्दा वो हैं जो दुनिया के सवालों का
    अपने कर्म से जवाब दिया करते हैं..

  57. lover boy says

    ये देखो दोगले सेक्युलर हिन्दू का कारनामा

    भाजपा नेता निकला गौ तस्कर

    भोपाल। कटनी में गायों की तस्करी का एक ऐसा मामला सामने आया है, जिसमें आरोपी एक ऐसा व्यक्ति है जो भाजपा और बजरंगदल का नेता होने के नाते गायों की तस्करी के खिलाफ आंदोलन करता रहा है। गौसेवा प्रकोष्ठ का संयोजक है एवं गौशाला का संचालक भी।

    पुलिस ने इसके दो साथियों सहित 158 गायों को भी बरामद किया है, जिन्हें तस्करी किया जा रहा था। स्लीमनाबाद के टीआई आरएस चौहान ने बताया कि थानांतर्गत कोंडिया गांव में ले जाए जा रहे 158 पशुओं के साथ विपिन बिलौहा, एमएल जैन और कंधी यादव को गिरफ्तार किया गया है।

    उनके विरुद्ध गौवंश अधिनियम की धारा 469 में प्रकरण दर्ज किया गया है। आरोपी विपीन बिलौहा भाजपा के गौ सेवा प्रकोष्ठ का संयोजक बताया जाता है, हालांकि टीआई से इस बारे में पूछे जाने पर उन्होंने कहा कि मैं नहीं जानता, यह कौन है? आरोपियों को मंगलवार को कोर्ट में पेश किया जाएगा
    अब गोरक्षा कौन करेगा ?
    R.joshi

    • Ankur says

      कम्युनल शब्द का अर्थ ही बदल दिया है लोगें ने अब भारत में , अगर मुस्लमान अपने मत ( इस्लाम ) के नाम पे वोट दे तो वोह वोह सेक्युलर कहलायेगा परन्तु इसी विचार धरा के अनुरूप एक हिन्दू वोट करे अर्थात जो पार्टी हिन्दू मतों का समर्थन करती हो तो वो कम्युनल कहलायेगा। यह सब कांग्रेस का किया धरा है और जब तक हर एक भारतीय इस बात को नहीं समझे गा उस समय तो भारत का अभ्युदय नहीं हो सकता

    • Ankur says

      meaning of the word “communal” has been perverted in Bharat, now a days.If a Muslim votes in the name of Islam (i.e for people who support the ideology of Islam) , he will not be branded as communal but will fall under the category of being purely secular (along with the politics associated with it) ; but if a Hindu votes on similar lines he will be branded and shunned as being communal, this is the doing of congress.., unless every bharatiya understands this , the rise of this nation is not possible.
      Aum.

  58. shubham bhatt says

    awesome article man, i myself am “born in a brahmin family” (you know what i mean) but i never believed that there would be anything like “caste system” written in vedas. i always used to think that the vedas are just misunderstood. i always wanted to read all the vedas and other main hindu scriptures just to find out how ancient indian civilization actually worked. i respect my religion, and believe that our civilization used to be really great. after reading the vedas (in sanskrit) i would love to try and answer everyone who used to ask me about the indian caste system (since i live in norway) and i never had an answer since i myself didn’t know. but now when i know. i’ll atleast have an answer. thanks a lot dude.

    • Arun says

      There is no Hindu caste system. In Sanatana Dharma aka Hinduism there is non-heriditary Varna (Brahmin, Kashtriya, Vaishya, and Shudra). And there is Jatis aka communities that a person is born into (like being of Jewish, Irish, German community and heritage). Shudra is not the same as untouchable. There is no untouchability in Hinduism either.

      Certain communities because of the jobs they did fit into one Varna or another. It was more fluid. Jatis moved up and down Varnas. The British tried to classify communities into one Varna or another. That tending to make Varna more rigid and hereditary, but that was not the purpose or nature of Hindu varna – neither meant for a whole community nor was supposed to be rigid and inherited.

      Untouchability was practiced by Indians but it is neither unique to Hindus in India, other Indian religious communities did as well, nor unique to India (google it).

  59. krishnarao says

    For those Indians in India, what should they put down on some of those documents, government or not, that ask for your caste. Should we just say on it none.

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  61. Muhammad says

    HINDU CASTE SYSTEM
    in Hindu scriptures there are four divisions of people 1-BRAHMAN (priest) 3.5%, 2-KSHATRIYA (warriors) 5.5%, 3-VAISHYA (business caste) 6%, 4-SHUDRA (serving caste to above three caste also called Achot and feet (they cant touch the food or anything of uper three classes) 85%.
    majority of the Muslims of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh are converted form caste SHUDRA (serving caste) thanks to the caste system they recognize the truth of Islam.

    • dogra says

      the corrupted caste system has no sanctrion in Vedas, as all parts of the body work together in unison.

      The Muslims who converted can return back as there is no birth based caste in Hinduism, and as lord Krishna says God resides in hearts of all beings-BG 10.20,

    • sridhar says

      mr mohammad please do understand the vedas before commenting….i know islam a bit through my friend even misinterpretations can be made out of islam….hinduism being the most oldest religion suffers many alterations….but the true vedas do not carry any word caste

    • Arun says

      There is however a religious sanctioned Muslim caste system: Muslim men first, Muslim women second, men from the older two Jewish faiths (Judaism and Christianity) are next as 3rd class dhimmis, behind them as Jewish and Christian women, and way beneath them are the men of the dharmic faiths (Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism) and beneath them are the women of the dharmic faiths, and the lowest two are the other religions who do not get to be “dhimmis” men and beneath them the women of all the other religions like the Bahai and African animists.
      This is the Muslim caste system that indeed IS religiously sanctioned.

    • says

      majority of the Muslims of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh are converted form caste SHUDRA (serving caste) thanks to the caste system they recognize the truth of Islam.

      Dear friend,

      Shudra is not a caste, all are born as ignorant of knowledge as ‘Shudra’ to feed the nature as per their mental ability. After education, they acquire status in the society. The Brahaman, who guide the society with his sacrifice and knowledge, The Kshatriya, who defend the society from thieves, robbers and invaders by his weapons and healthy body, The Vaisya, who serve the society with business, and agriculture. It is mental classification of the human-beings in the society. It was not hereditary, but during long slavery of invaders rule, it become hereditary professional classification. The poor people were exploited, and the poverty under foreign rule forced them to adopt Islam with conversion for survival.

      The British rulers have exploited the poor to attract them towards Christianity and forced them for conversion. The rulers were free to do any thing to convert Indians into their religion. Otherwise there was no religion in India like Christian or Muslim. Every body was free to follow his deep rooted traditions.without any code of conversion.
      It has saved Indian culture, only. ‘The man is friend and foe of himself’ the life is eternal, The hell or heaven are on the earth it self with new birth. The Indian culture was misinterpreted during long slavery by the invaders to impose their superstition with divide and rule policy.
      The politicians are following the same, to rule over India and Pakistan on mental slaves of Britain.

      With regards

  62. Ajay kumar says

    Who say that there is no caste in vedas .I want to tell him that
    arthved chapter no-76 (aayush sukti )
    slok no 1524 it state that
    “jo chhatriye purus
    vidhiwat stiti agni ki (sandeepini )aahuti gyata hai wah kutil (chhalpurna )chhetro me bhi (bhramit hokar )mrityu ki disha me pair nahi badhata ”
    next
    arthved chapter no-76 (aayush sukti )
    slok no 1525 it state that

    “Aisa gyata chhatriye dheergha jeewan ki kamna se angisrot ka path karta hai .use gherne wale shatru bhi nahi mar sakte hai ”

    to jab ved me chhatriye word aaya matlab ved me caste hai .and hindu purohit kahte hai ki ved mriti lekh hai ki jisko bhagwan ne likha hai .matlab jisko brahma ne khud likha hai .iska matlab ye warna vyawastha bramha ne laya aur desh ,samaj ko bata hai .like as “bhrahma satyam jagat mithya ”

    to ab kahna band kar deejiye ki jati karma ke aadhar par bati gati .sach ye hai ki jati vedo ne bata hai aur manusmriti ne use aage badhya hai .Aur desh ko gulam banwaya hai .

    • Arun says

      “Caste” is not an Indian word. It is not Sanskrit. It is not in the Vedas. It is derived from the European language of Portuguese “Casta” “Casta (Spanish: [ˈkasta], Portuguese: [ˈkaʃtɐ, ˈkastɐ]) is a Spanish and Portuguese term used in 17th and 18th centuries mainly in Spanish America to describe as a whole the mixed-race people which appeared in the post-Conquest period. A parallel system of categorization based on the degree of acculturation to Hispanic culture, which distinguished between gente de razón (Hispanics) and gente sin razón (non-acculturated natives), concurrently existed and worked together with the idea of casta.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casta
      The European word Caste and its hereditary connotations came to be associated only after the Portuguese and English colonized parts of India 300 years ago or so and projected “Casta” on to Varna and Jati. The Vedas only speak of non-hereditary Varna which is not birth based hereditary Casta.

        • Ajay kumar says

          Arun ji yaha ye mudda nahi hai ki caste ki originity kaha se hai . matlab ko samajhiye . “there is no caste system in vedas ” is timeline ko badal ka hum hindi me kar de “ved me jati varna vyastha nah i hai “iska matlab bhi wahi hua maine jo aap ko proofe diya hai usko padhiye aur phir atherved padhiye . aur ha caste indian word nahi hai par jati varma vyastha to indian language me hai jiska matlab same hota hai .language sirf ek transmission ka jariya hai na ki koi matlab badalta hai . Aur ha aap ke anusar ved sanskrit me likha hai na ki enlish me ya Portuguese to usme caste ka matlab varn vyawastha hai .matlab samjho evidence dekho phir seena dhok kar kaho ki ved me varna vyawastha hai .

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  64. Satish Oberoi says

    We have not examined why Varna system was created in the first place? World is functioning without it.Or is it needed for followers of Vedic teachings or applicable in India only?

    My study has indicated that had India not incorporated Varna system we would perhaps have been divided into a number of countries with considerable bloodshed.

    Now we need to reinvent the Varna system not only to eliminate caste system but to bring in order in our society.

  65. Ashish B says

    wanted to post in this article but couldnt see the comment box there, nevermind.

    Pretty interesting turn of events are happening in this election, Dr. Udit Raj the known Hindu baiter is joining the BJP.
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Dalit-activist-Udit-Raj-to-join-BJP/articleshow/30927015.cms

    Hope, after his ‘Ghar Vapasee’ he brings back all those people whom he got converted into other faiths due to his lack of knowledge on vedic texts.

Trackbacks

  1. [...] I call them wisdom books (not scriptures) because they are essentially guide books containing topics such as science, martial arts, ethics, maths, metaphysics and much more. You are given complete freedom to reject them without being threatened with eternal hell, unlike most of the world’s scriptures. And if anything, these books promote social hierarchy based on MERITS, rather than on birth as claimed by many brahmins today. But that’s a whole different topic. For those interested in digging deeper into it, I highly suggest reading Agniveer’s exposition here. [...]

  2. […] I call them wisdom books and not scriptures because they are essentially guide books containing topics such as science, martial arts, ethics, maths, metaphysics and much more. Unlike most of the world’s scriptures, you are given complete freedom to reject them without being threatened with eternal hell. These books promote social hierarchy based on merits, rather than on birth as claimed by many brahmins today. But that’s a whole different topic. For those interested in digging deeper into it, I highly suggest reading Agniveer’s exposition here. […]

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