- Vedas and Shudra
- Vedas and Dasyu in Hinduism
- Vedas and Daas
- Rakshas in Vedas and Hinduism
- Vedas and Dignity of Labor
- There is no caste-system in Vedas
- Vedas – foundation of birth-based caste discrimination
- The reality of caste system – 1
- The reality of caste system – 2
- The reality of caste system – Next Move
This article is also available in Hindi at http://agniveer.com/5497/vedas-and-shudra-hi/
A commonly held perception regarding Vedas is their prejudice against Shudras. Vedas are accused of being Brahminical texts designed to subdue the Shudras. They are considered to be the source of caste-based discrimination that is touted as the primary characteristic of Hinduism/ Sanatan Dharma or Vedic Dharma. The entire pro-Dalit movement also has its foundation on this baseless notion.
Unfortunately, nothing could be far from truth. In this series of articles, we would provide evidence from Vedas and related texts to establish the following:
a. The meaning of four Varnas and Shudra in particular is completely different from what the Macaulay inspired intellectuals would want us to believe.
b. There is absolutely no element of birth-based discrimination or denial of opportunity for any human being in Vedic way of life.
c. If there is one text that provides evidence of highest level of meritocracy and equal-opportunity, it is the Vedas. Even the most contemporary texts on human rights cannot come closer.
Before we begin our journey of solving the caste-puzzle through Vedas, let us start with certain worship mantras from Vedas that mention Shudras:
Yajurved 18.48:
O Lord! Provide enlightenment/ compassion to our Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras. Provide me also with the same enlightenment so that I can see the truth.
Yajurved 20.17:
Whatever crime we have committed against my village, forest or committee; whatever crime we have committed through our organs, whatever crime we have committed against Shudras and Vaishyas, whatever crime we have done in matters of Dharma, kindly forgive us relieve us from the tendency of the same.
Yajurved 26.2:
The way I gave this knowledge of Vedas for benefit of all humans, similarly you all also propagate the same for benefit of Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Shudras, Vaishyas, Women and even most downtrodden. The scholars and the wealthy people should ensure that they not deviate from this message of mine.
Atharvaved 19.32.8:
O Lord! May I be loved by everyone – Brahmin, Kshatriya, Shudra or Vaishya. May I be admired by everyone.
Atharvaved 19.62.1:
May all noble people admire me. May kings and Kshatriyas admire me. May all look at me with admiration. May the Shudras and Vaishyas admire me.
It is clear from these mantras that a Vedic person:
- seeks to be forgiven for crimes against all including Shudras
- seeks to propagate Vedas to all including Shudras
- considers all Varnas – Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra to be equal and respects them equally.
Thus it is clear that as per Vedas, Shudras deserve the same respect as other Varnas and as per Vedic prayer, Shudras are accorded great esteem.
It is also interesting that in all of these mantras, the word Shudra comes before Vaishya. So one cannot counter-argue that Shudras are given last mention or least preference.
These are sufficient evidence to conclude that Shudra, as per Vedas, imply something quite different from a caste or community that has to be discriminated against. We shall explore the meaning of Shudra and associated terms like Daas, Dasyu and Anarya, which are often confused to be synonyms, in subsequent articles.
May the truth prevail!
This article is also available in Hindi at http://agniveer.com/5497/vedas-and-shudra-hi/
Do not miss these:
About Agniveer
You say :" Unfortunately, even someone like Dr B R Ambedkar could not rise above his biased mind and ended up accusing Vedas of being the foundation of Shudra-subjugation".
No Sir. I beg to differ on this issue. Please read "Who were the Shudras" by Dr.B.R.Ambedkar. If any leader in the 40s and 50s opposed the Aryan Invasion Theory, it was him. He was quite objective. He never accused Vedas of discrimination against the Shudras.
http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/38A.%20Who%20were%2…
Ambedkar believed that portions of Vedas were written later. He believed these portions, including Purush Sukta were anti-Shudra. Further, he believed that Shudras as a Varna did not exist separately in Vedic society and that they were part of Kshatriyas. He thus concluded that Arya Samaj view of Vedas being infallible is against the reformist agenda in favor of Shudras. Unfortunately, by his own admission, since his knowledge of Sanskrit was limited and he had to rely only on English translations by western indologists, he grossly erred on these points. In reality, the meaning of word Shudra was always supposed to be quite different from caste-connotations that was forced on it later. While he did not replicate the theories of westerners with regards to Aryan Invasion, he nonetheless considered the 4 varnas to be different from what they actually meant and considered belief in Vedas to be a roadblock in reformation of society. That is why he converted to Buddhism without assessing Vedas differently from western translations, and that set a wrong precedent.
your articles very nice to read, and hear… but again we are not slave or fool to believe….. that is good to see how you are alert every moment.
There is no caste or varna or vedas are good ok but how 3000 thousand of caste. if any sudra read mandara cut their tongue, or if he hear pour lead his ear…hahahahah..
anyway i dont want waste our time to read these kind of dirty articles. whoever believe this article thats their choice. All ways your group cheating us. that is not new.
Read below about hindu religion,
Inspite of education Brahmins practiced sati and widowhood for millenia. If you go to mathura, all the widow you see there are brahmin widows in white saree? Mostly from middle class educated families. On the contrary, Dalits were denied education for millenia, but Dalits are the only people in India, who never practiced sati or widowhood, widow remarriage is a very common culture among Dalits for ages. But, in case of educated Brahmins, someone like British has to come and tell them, that it is wrong. In the whole of India, it is the only Dalit culture, which is most liberal in terms of marraiage, sexuality and gender equality. You will hardly find any dowry deaths among dalits. The only problem of Dalits is denial of rights and atrocities on them by Hindus. It was Dr.Ambedkar (Dalit) who married a Brahmin woman and fought for the rights of brahmin women, gave them Rights to get Divorce, Right to inherit father’s property, Right to re-marry in form of Hindu code bill. These rights were denied to Brahmin women by their own men in all through Indian History. When Dr.Ambedkar introduced Hindu code bill, it was the English educated Brahmins who protested and opposed it tooth and nail, for which Dr.Ambedkar resigned from the Nehru’s cabinet? Why did english educated Brahmins behaved like this? Can you explain this paradox? Can you give me an example of a Liberal, educated Brahmin leader marrying a Dalit girl and fought for the Dalit rights? In case, if any Brahmin does this in future no Dalit will oppose him, like educated brahmins opposed Dr Ambedkar’s fight for Brahmin women rights.
Shall I explain you this paradox?????
So, with full confidence I am writing you all these. The actual problem is, the present day educated, urban innocent Hindus don’t know about their own religion. To them Hinduism is a Noble religion. This Noble impression they got because of Swami Vivekananda (SV) and Sri Aurobindo (SA). These 2 saints, very good at heart had actually what they propagated was Upanishad part of Hinduism, which was discarded by Brahmins Long ago. Carefully Notice all the saints who popularized Upanishadic philosophy are Non-Brahmin upper caste like SV. Actually what Hinduism teaches? What is the literature of Hinduism? Traditionally Hindus Religious lore is divided into 2 groups of Books.
(We can have a detail debate on this).
Hinduism’s Religious Literature fall into two groups of Books.
Six Orthodox Hindu philosophies
Group I : Shruti
Group II : Smriti
1) Nyaya
2) Visheshika
3) Mimansa
4) Sankhya
5) Vedanta
6) Yoga
1) Vedas (Rig, Artharva,
Yajur and Sama)
2) Aranyakas
3) Brahmanas
4) Upanishads
1) Shastras
2) Puranas
3) Sutras
4) Ithihasas
These two groups (Shruti and Smriti) together sum up the six ancient orthodox philosophies of Hinduism. All the books under Shruti and Smriti were produced by Brahmins themselves except the Aranyakas and Upanishads, which were produced by Kshatriyas. This was the reason why there was fight between Brahmins and Kshatriyas, right from the ancient History of India. The best example is of the fight between the Brahmin Vasistha and Kshatriya Vishwamitra. Since, Upanishads were produced by Kshatriyas, Brahmins did not like them and hence, they called them as Vedanta (Upanishads) meaning Veda + anta, anta in Sanskrit means “End or Border”. So, the meaning of Vedanta (Upanishads) is Books outside Vedas. Such, was the contempt Brahmins had towards the Upanishads by calling them as Vedanta. Why Brahmins hated Vedanta (Upanishads), just because they were produced by Kshatriyas? No, Brahmins hated Upanishads for two reasons, first, because of the kshatriya origin of the books, second, for it’s contents. This raises a question, what does Upanishads teach. There are about 108 Upanishads, some important, some quite unimportant. What ever may be it, what do they teach? What is there in Upanishads which made Brahmins call it with a derogatory word “Vedanta”? The Kshatriya Rishis of Upanishads discovered that every being has an “Atman” which is derived from “Paramatman” (Brahman). The Paramatman was the all-pervading principle which binds the universe and the salvation lay in the Atman realizing that is Paramatman. The main thesis of Upanishads was that Paramatman was a reality and that Atman was the same as Paramatman. The Atman did not realize that it was Paramatman because of the Upadhis (Obstacles) in which it is entangled. Since, every being has the same Atman derived from Paramatman, so all men are equal. This is where Brahmins could not accept the equality of all men; this is the reason why they hated Upanishads with the name Vedanta. Hence, Upanishads were never part of Vedas; they were un-canonical in all through the history.
For our argument sake let us divide the Hinduism as two parts, one part is the Books produced by Brahmins and the other part is the Books produced by Kshatriyas. Kshatriyas produced the Upanishad philosophy, which is all men are equal. The philosophy that Brahmins produced is the Vedic philosophy, that is all men are unequal, which later got popularized as Shastras and Puranas. So, the bed rock of the Upanishads is equality, whereas the bed rock of Puranic (Vedic) is inequality. Brahmins developed a common culture around this Puranic (Vedic, Shastras) philosophy, which was based on inequality. At the same time brahmins never allowed Upanishad philosophy to become a common culture and ethics of Indian society, because any attempt to develop a culture around Upanishads would lead into equalizing the society. So, Upanishads just remained as a mere philosophy, never became the culture of India. So, the mass of Hindus all through the History were under the spell of puranic Hindusim, that is the reason why Brahmins could survive unchallenged holding temples. All the rituals, which Hindus follow at home and temples today is in the puranic style, not the Upanishadic way. Dowry, Sati, Widowhood, Child marriages, Agni-pariksha, Husband-worship etc all these are the part of the Puranic Hinduism culture. These kinds of activities Brahmins made it as Civil law of the society through Shastras, thus sanctifying the Puranic Hindusim legally. Whereas, Upanishadic Hindusim could not develop any rational civil law, as it could not create a culture around it due to Brahmin opposition.
The other religion which fought the Puranic Hindusim in the History was Buddhism. To counter Buddhism, Brahmins employed various measures for a very long time. One, they used Muslims to kill Buddhism, Second, they themselves became Buddhist monks and distorted the Buddhism, Third, Brahmins saints with the help of some soldiers killed Buddhist monks (example Adi Shakaracharya killed Buddhism in south india by killing Buddhist monks). Fourth, produced Bhagavat Gita to counter Buddhism in the name of Krishna. Bhagavat Gita is nothing but a distorted mixture of Sankhya and Vedanta philosophy to defend the caste system. They did it in the name of Krishna. Sankhya and Vedanta philosophies haven’t crystallized very well at the time of Krishna, then how did Krishna use these two philosophies?? From this itself it is clear that Bhagavat Gita was produced by Brahmins, to counter Buddhism. It is surprising to see, why Brahmins used Vedanta (Upanishads) philosophy in Bhagavat Gita which they hated. If we read the Bhagavat Gita carefully, one can notice the Vedanta philosophy is distorted in such a way to defend the caste system. This is how Brahmins prevented Upanishad philosophy, Buddhism to take roots in Indian soil, whereas they nurtured Puranic Hindusim culture thoroughly.
If today, common Hindus practice dowry, Agni-pariksha, Caste system etc it is not because they are not educated, it is because they are following the culture of their puranic Hindusim which is taught to them for centuries. Here, the problem is not education it is the cultural notions of their own religion Hindusim. It was only Dalits who did not accept the puranic Hindusim that was the reason why Brahmins condemned them as untouchables. This is the reason why in Dalit culture, there is no widowhood, Agni-pariksha etc, because they did not accept Puranic Hindusim. This is the reason why educated Brahmins opposed Dr Ambedkar’s Hindu code bill, because Dr. Ambedkar was attacking the Puranic Hindusim, which is the culture of Brahmins. How can Brahmins allow the demolition of their own culture which they nurtured for centuries?
It was only during the time of Swami Vivekananda (SV), some attempt was made to popularize the Upanishad (Vedanta) Hinduism. During this time the meaning of Vedanta changed from Books outside Vedas, became the Essence of Vedas. Today Vedanta (Upanishads) is called as Essence of Vedas. This was the service done by SV, he tried to attack the Puranic Hindusim and develop Upanishadic Hindusim into a culture. But, before this became a reality, suddenly he dies at a very young age of 39, without any ill-health or disease. His death is still a mystery? Now, some urban educated Hindus got an opportunity to know about the culture of Upanishads, so they think Hindusim is a very Noble religion. Such, kind of Hindus, when they see people in the grip of Puranic Hindusim doing bad things, they cannot understand, they think it is not because of religion, it is because of lack of education or backwardness.
So, I guess now you understand what I am arguing. The principle problem of India is not education; it is the culture of Puranic Hindusim which is responsible for all the problems in India. Now, the question is the Enlightened, Learned, Good, and Secular Brahmins are they ready to demolish the Puranic Hindusim and Glorify the Upanishadic Hindusim? Are they ready to develop a common public psychology, culture and ethics around Upanishads? The future of India depends upon the answer-action to this question. Dalits are the only people in India, who are ever ready to demolish the Puranic Hindusim, are there any Good Brahmins left who want to join their camp?
Do you have any answer?
It is clearly evident from the puranic literature and historic event that some sort of complex prevailed between the Varna group and it is continuing even to-day. But from the beginning till to-day the entire blame is put on Brahmin whose population is very negligible in the society. Hence without the support of other Varna people it is not possible to introduce any changes or ruling in the society. Whatever good or bad happened in Hindu society the prize/blame should be shared by the three Varna people excluding powerless Sudra? No human being is devoid of hereditary trait. It is natural that Ambedkar findings are to some extent biased putting the entire blame on Brahmin. Even Vivekananda also done this blaming Brahmin one sided. I am also wondering how the Brahmin haters forget the atrocities done by the invaders continuously for 1500 years, extending their support till to-day for them and blindly digging their own grave.
Also I read in some books that the original name of Ambedkar is Bema Rao. A Brahmin teacher named Ambedkar helped him in his studies. Ambedkar changed his name as Bema Rao Ambedkar (B.R.Ambedkar) as a remembrance of loyalty shown by the teacher. Also for his higher studies one Mr.Arjun Kelusker a Brahmin took him to the Raja of Gaighuward and arranged funds. Also he married a Brahmin lady as a second wife during end period of his life. I don’t know how far these information are correct. Having mingled with Brahmin in his life how he has taken the stand of putting the entire blame on Brahmin alone is really perplexing.
Dear Tamilji,
Namaste,
Thanks for sharing in your thoughts.
It was interesting reading your point of view on how Caste system evolved, differing concepts of Vedas and Upanishads, role of Brahmins and the status of Dalit.
But my question is Where form Here ? What is the role model for the society to follow from here on?
Dear sir;
I think you mistake social evil from what was past. Social evils actually are not from religion like Vedas, or Upanishads, but are from human ignorance.
In any society there will be classes of people the ruling elite, warriors, labor, educated, business classes.Whether we look at English, American, European, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, communist etc. This is basic structure of large societies, but we do not call them caste based societies. In fact there is an caste system outside India called doctors,lawyers, scientist, politicians, and it is too inherited to some degrees as educated tend to remain educated. There will be class conflict always, as no one would like to think anyone is superior or inferior. But in Hindu dharma stories of Shudra, Brahmin, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, Assura, getting mokesh is common place which is the highest achievement for Hindus.
Remember unless they received full 25 years brahmacharya having the respective qualities of Brahmin, Viahsya, Shudra, Kshatriyas,then and only then could they be classified as such otherwise they were all born shudra.Only person who posses those above qualities and this is not birth based.
We in this perspective must see history. I recently procured a book called “ProtoHistory :Archaeology of the Harappan Civilization”2004 published by ICHR, S.Settar, Ravi Korisettar, this book was very clear that what you call Ayran Invasion is very much a fraud that it was the Swarswati River civilization, the People living there was indigenous, that over 1,000,000 km2 area was covered whereas the before theory in 1947 covered a few sites of Indus now over 1000 sites are discovered compared to Egypt where only 15,000 sq km of being only but far more excavated.It largest ancient civilization know to man. In fact migration more likely to Europe because of this fact then invasion. Infact the say there is period of time of resettlement.. That the British time when so called Indus valley civilization making false claims as the remains were by natural death not by butchering, most of them worshiped in fire alters similar to Vedic Hindus.
Bur most interesting of these societies they were first to have water supplied to every house, they did not have a culture haves and have not, and their evidence in areas like Punjap that there is continuation of culture.Also Like Dwarka in Mahabhara some exist Drawka where the Mahabharat wrote. So there is too much evidence it is history of Hindus.
We believe us Hindus this Kali Yuga individuals are not of such character to tell truth. Hindus believe in history of millions of years and say their history is continuous. What verifies this is scientific evidence. Further what say they were technology better is they say they knew more about plants, and animals then we know today, what is the proof this that most science have got the basic of medicines, plants and animals from these ancient people and still continue this stealing called Bio-piracy. Great libraries were burnt down for over six months like the nine story Nalanda confirm that today is the Dark ages and usher in such an age in India..Even today we have no such large libraries relative to our population.
Now you blame Hindus for Muslim killing Buddhist, but do you blame them for killing Hindus that they do even today with the Kashmir Hindu population by giving them one days notice to leave.Creation of Pakistan, Afghanistan where Muslim do the same speaking of genocide of both Hindus and Buddhist including their mandhirs who make a percent of population.
Dear Tamil face the fact that the British were racist pigs they would never call a dark skin person an Aryan which they considered themselves to be. The North Indian with lighter skin they though but not the South Indian. You are a victim of fiction so what you say is hypocritical.
Further British lied, yes Hindus in this modern world called Kali yoga are corrupt they are not like the Swarswati Civilization. People are inhuman cruel, greedy, corrupt. There is destruction all around as they say it is the biggest extinction period millions of species have been extinguished and large portion of the earth have turned to desert due to the evil people do in last 2000-3000 years.. People listen to their mafia dons, bollywood not to educated to commercials on TV. They listen to corrupt like Nehru who partitioned the country, back stabbed Mahatma Gandhi, slept with Mount Batten wife who introduced such theories to Indian society. They are weak and low in character unable even to practice Brahmachary.
Respect Agniveer, as they are tiring to take India out of Dark ages and live her glory, not live in the time of British racism and Bigotry, or where ignorance is predominate. It is time raise again to be the most truthful country, the most crime free, the place where everyone wanted to go, the country with the largest exports who know throughout the world for not the measly one percent, Histories most powerful nation,The richest most educated country of the world, not of Babus, criminals, and poverty..
@vedamgopal
Please add me to the brahmin haters list… Because
You speak about attrocities of Invaders, I know they were & are horrible.. but you must accept that this was that gift given by orthodox brahmins who designed birth-based cast.. by which Ravan like wicked minded became brahmins.. and impotents became kshatriya how could they protect Bharath matha…
As arabindo said ‘whatever attrocities my mother (bharath matha) faced is because of selfish brahmins and arrogant kshatriyas’..
For all those murders, rapes, infanticides, burning, temple destruction, looting are the gift of the great brahmins.
@Tamil : Frnd, We do not believe in the puranas, they have no credibility and are man made, they are to be outright discarded
Please read SatyaPrakash by Rishi Dayanand Saraswati., It can be found on this portal itself, please check the home page
Tamil get out of from the trap of fake books and understand vedas.
LTTE was a terrorist organization and thanks GOD it has been destroyed. They believed in stupid aryan invasion myths and had hatred towards hindus.
Namaste and Vanakkam brother.
I’m a Tamil from Sri Lanka.
Vedas are the only texts of Sanatana Dharma and the only Shruti texts, hence one should live his/her life according to Vedas and not other texts such as Puranas.
Sati and the other social problems you mentioned are just that, social problems. They have no link to the actual Hinduism (Sanatana Dharma).
Vedas are what should be followed first and the other smriti texts such as Upanisads should be accepted as per Vedas. Anything in a smriti text that doesn’t agree with what Vedas say should be rejected.
The LTTE was nothing but a way to kill off Hindus, headed by (no surprise here) a christian (Prabhakaran was a christian). No one should support such an organisation, especially not a Hindu.
Thank you Tamil,
I think the learned, intelligent people like you are very less in our society and those who are there, are not coming forward because of their own caste benefit. Now its high time that we all should start a mission to tell the truth to open the eyes of the our so called religious authorities which only save this beautiful religion and and our nation. This is the only way to stop conversions to other religion. But I am sure Bramhins will not allow this to happen because in the past whenever somebody like Bhagwan Buddha, Saint Dnyaneshwar (12th century) Saint Ravidas (15th century) Saint Tukaram (17th century) and now Swami Vivekanand and Dr B R Ambedkar tried to do this either they were severely opposed or finished. It is a fact in the present scenario there is 100% reservation to 3% Bramhins for economically and socially important temple posts like priesthood and Shankaracharyas where there is unlimited flow of money (without paying income tax). It is natural that they are going to use all there powers so that their income sources (without efforts) will be maintained in the Indian society.
Nice work man , i agree with you
Dear Tamil,
Your comments have some truth. However, the truth you are talking about is limited to people’s behavior. Not idea. The Vedas and the Upanishads as not opposed to each other. It is true that Brahmins at one point messed it up. But that does not discredit the Vedas and the Upanishads. Since you are asking for names, one name I can give who has been like a sun to many. Bhagawan Ramana Maharshi of Tiruvannamalai was a Brahmin. Read his life story.
Ok, In vedic times there was no birth caste thats every one know, and it must be a better(equal?) than puranic hinduism.But let us also see whats the big difference ‘tween Vedic and puranic hinduism.
Vedic- they eat meat even zebu beef(although they praised one who doesn’t).
Puranic-they strictly popularised vegetarians.
Vedic-The local god(of adivasis and villages were not included
Puranic- They included all gods of popular belief
Any one has to sy something about these puranic as far as i believe are beter than vedics over these two atleast.
No offence,pure comment
Dear Agniveer,
OK let us assume that Dr BRA assessed Vedas through Tampered (English) translation and we will discuss what you have translated above in YAJURVEDA 20.17. You read it again, it is very clearly mentioned that Shudras and Vaishyas should forgive for the crimes against them. That means surely they agreed that crimes were conducted in those days against Vaishyas and Shudras otherwise what for forgiveness?
It is very clearly written in your text only now you cant blame europian Indologists. You will still have some polished words to explain in your dictionary but no intelligent person will believe it.
@Dr I. Avinash
‘ That means surely they agreed that crimes were conducted in those days against Vaishyas and Shudras otherwise what for forgiveness?’
What do you mean by “those days” ?
It is clearly mentioned that varna system is entirely merit based instead of birth-based as currently practised and Shudra is a profession category of Arya or those people who are indulged in benevolent acts.
Say, if you chuck out your nurse for no fault of his/her and later on you repent your decision for what you did. Would you not pray to God to forgive & relieve you from the tendency of repeating it again ??
Seems like you just want to continue with your rant against the Vedas otherwise I see no reason as to why a MBBS graduate would find it so difficult to understand a simple thing mentined in Yajurved 20.17
Hi,
Good stuff Agni, ,have been able to use the information to my replies to the people in website above, to let the truth of Sanatan Dharma out.
Great article Agniveer ji..
Thanks ….
In "Who were the Shudras", Dr.Amedkar even quotes the Shanti Parva of Mahabharata which provides equal representation to Shudras on Council of Ministers of the King..almost on par with Brahmins. He acknowledges that earlier Shudras were treated equally and entitled to Upanayanam.
Dr Amdedkar considers Shudras to be part of Kshatriyas originally. As per him, because of fights with Shudra kings where Brahmins had to suffer losses, Brahmins discriminated against Shudras. This theory relies on the 4 Varnas being birth-based, which is not true.
True, he has painstakingly provided the cloth. Let us iron out the creases.
@Anand…
Brother..
You said "If any leader in the 40s and 50s opposed the Aryan Invasion Theory, it was him. ………………."
Please read the "Riddles of Rama & Krishna" by Ambedkar..
http://www.ambedkar.org/riddleinhinduism/21C.Ridd…
Here he mentions that among the aryans there were marriages between brothers and sisters.."
and Rama and Sita were brother & sister…
Now we all know that Aryan does not refer to any race.. It means "noble"..
Please read Stephan Knapps book on "Aryan invasion theory debunked" where Stephan And David Frawley have provided many proofs and debunked Aryan Invasion myth!
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/solid_evidence_debun…
Thus we can conclude that Ambedkar mostly relied on Western Indologists(whose main aim was to destroy hindu culture) books(of Griffith, max muller) and most of the time his own words contradicts himself!!…
I guess most of the things written by Arun Shourie on Ambedkar in "Worshipping False Gods" might be correct..
If Ambedkar instead of making false claim that Arya Samajis are wrong , if he had gained knowledge from the books of Maharshi Dayanand Saraswati and spreaded Mahashi's knowledge(which is true forever) everywhere, then probably casteism would have stopped at that time itself and we could have seen the "Golden Era of Vedic Culture " once again!!
Brother, I do not blame Ambedkar completely for this. He was quite in line with Arya Samaj ideology in principle. His initial writings depict the same. But as time progressed, he had developed an image as a Dalit leader. Thus he became a prisoner of this image, and feared that he would lose his different identity and political following if he agreed to that. He knew that Manu Smriti is full of adulterations and plethora of shlokas in Manu Smriti clearly proclaim equal rights of Shudras, refusal of birth-based discrimination and tougher punishments for non-Shudras. He knew that this is in line with Vedas. But he continued his biased diatribe against Vedas and Vedic legends. This was partially due to his false image and followership and partially due to a significant number of so-called upper caste people trying to retain their birth-based supremacy. Had Ambedkar sided with Arya Samaj, or had at least tried to be genuine to best of his knowledge, this divisive casteism would have been extinct by now. Nonetheless, I appreciate Ambedkar for his dalit-upliftment efforts even though he failed to provide a true direction to this movement due to his prejudices.
"Nonetheless, I appreciate Ambedkar for his dalit-upliftment efforts even though he failed to provide a true direction to this movement due to his prejudices."
No. Actually, he rubbished the Aryan Invasion Theory and provided a true direction to the movement. He wanted Dalits to get this AIT out of their heads so that they can be properly integrated in hindu society. Todays Dalits dont read hios books and simply parrot the AIT as taught to them by political v vested interests.
I agree on this point. He was completely against Invasion Theory. And his initial writings were close to Vedic view. But he digressed later a bit. For example, he continued to condemn Manu instead of acknowledging that the controversial verses were clearly adulterated. Many Arya Samaj leaders did gave him this evidence, and perhaps he admitted to it on a few occasions, but he continued his diatribe against Manu, and not only present Manu Smriti. Similarly, he well knew about adulteration of Ramayan and that Uttar Ramayan is completely fake. He also knew the truth of Purans. But he used these to write in detail to try to prove that Ram and Krishna were illegitimate, drunkards, womanizers and what not. I understand that his hatred was against casteist forces. But he drifted so much in his bias that ultimately he became a Buddhist, rejecting Vedas and Vedic concepts.
Refer <a href="http://www.ambedkar.org/riddleinhinduism/21A1.Rid…” target=”_blank”>http://www.ambedkar.org/riddleinhinduism/21A1.Rid…
It also shows how biased was Ambedkar against Vedas, despite having no knowledge of Sanskrit and knowing very well about intentions of western indologists on whom he based his conclusions. Perhaps he got bit to carried away with his hatred.
@anand
‘Todays Dalits’ who are they???
It might be you..
and who are ‘todays other varnas’??
It is foolish to finger at one and say he is this varna, and act as learned of Vedas or non-biased philosophy..
@Tamil great work buddy…
But Adi Shankara was Vedantist.. isn’t he? And I am not sure about he killing buddist monks..
@agniveer
honestly you (none) of you replied to Tamil as learned people; some showed up with again their shit here.. Vedas the Truth blah blah.. I don’t want to see it in articles but in the behaviour of commentors also.. till then I don’t consider none of you as believer of humanity, equality forget about understanding Vedas..
I didn’t even got reply from you about ‘Sapinda’ northindian & southindian differences…
Commentors I expect more honesty & morality; I want see influence of Vedas in your actions don’t just limit them to articles please…
thanks..
@VivekanandaInsp
—-I didn’t even got reply from you about ‘Sapinda’ northindian & southindian differences…——
Agniveer answered your query, i guess! Follow the link.
http://agniveer.org/showthread.php?tid=167
@shravak
Thanks
I thought I would get mail notification but didn’t got so.. I thought it was not replied..
@VivekanandaInsp
hmm…a sincere advice to you, do not post comments in haste here. Before reading the articles of Agniveer.com first read about the project Agniveer. what’s it purpose? Don’t be in a rush. They are not running a crash course here. You have to be patient. And remember the part ‘unleash the legend within’. AND “They don’t promise to answer everything. They merely help you seek the right questions. The answers lie within you. Let the discovery begin…”
@anand
‘Todays Dalits dont read hios books and simply parrot the AIT ‘… what about great learned todays ‘brahmins & other casts’ are they away with untouchbility…
if dalits mug-up AIT its not big deal they learnt a history fact wrongly..
But if great learned upper caste people still maintain untouchability.. they are real demons according to vedas..
‘that is why Gandhiji saw to it that he resigned from the fund set up to do away with untouchability’
If gandhiji honestly wanted to erase caste system he could have but he didn’t even after many others request.. He wanted birth-based caste system to exist..
If learned people like Gandhi (a god man) does that then it is very obvious that common humanitarians like me (who move away with situation) to burn vedas as arjun killed Bhishma to protect justice…
When Gandi gave new name to shudras as ‘Harijans’ foolish people rejoiced; indeed it is another disgrace.. Read Savarkar comments on Gandi’s attitude towards caste-system
I dont see where he has made that claim that Arya Samajis are wrong. Can u pls pinpoint? Further, he actually acknowledged that Swami Shraddhanandji was genuinely interested in eliminating untouchability and that is why Gandhiji saw to it that he resigned from the fund set up to do away with untouchability.
Refer this from "Who were the Shudras":
"I am not sorry for this clash with Arya Samajists. The Arya Samajists have done great mischief in making the Hindu society a stationary society by preaching that the Vedas are eternal, without beginning, without end, and infallible, and that the social institutions of the Hindus being based on the Vedas are also eternal, without beginning, without end, infallible and therefore requiring no change. To be permeated with such a belief is the worst thing that can happen to a community. I am convinced that the Hindu society will not accept the necessity of reforming itself unless and until this Arya Samajists' ideology is completely destroyed. The book does render this service, if no other."
I do not want to question Ambedkar's sincerity to Dalit cause, but do feel that he got bit too biased against foundations of our culture.
@agniveerji
Tamil created doubt in me..
Are Veda and Upanishads separate??
I thought Vedas contain Karma Kanda + Jnana Kanda
Karma Kanda – just mantras, rituals etc..
Jnana – Upanishads and Philosophy
Please make it clear..
Thanks
Yes, But why dont you do the same.
The status based mis representation was introduced later to abuse hinduism. Caste system is based upon the Job you take – Your Karma (Thoughts, speech and Deeds). Many people moved up and down the caste system on the basis of their Karma.
Both Valmiki and Vyasa, who wrote the Ramayana and Mahabharatha, belonged to the lower castes. Veda Vyasa who put order to our Vedas was a sudra. The sage Vasishtha was a shudra and he became sage later in life. One of the hymns from the Rg Veda states that one's caste is not determined by that of one's family or birth. "I am a sage, my father is a physician, my mother's job is to grind the corn." -Rg Veda 9.112.3
Performance of his duty as a service to the lord almighty, purifies a human being and gives him reward – here on this earth and hereafter as well. Duty of a serviceman is to serve his company with all his best of abilities. There is no force in it. Consider yourself not a servant of a human – but a servant of God/Allah. Through practice and experience and skill in his duty, he will be purified. He will be rewarded by God in his material possesions – here in earth and also beyond it.
Caste system is as follows:
============================
These are four designations which a human is naturally born with. Teacher,soldier,tradesman and serviceman(or employee). These are four thinking hats. This is the way our thought process will turn in regular life. If I want, I can learn good techniques and improve my thoughts and status as well.
For example, I am born to a soldier(kshatriya) father but my varna is Shudra(employee). Does this mean my father started hating me? No. My younger brother is born in teacher(brahman) varna. So performing my service with diligence will bless me here and hereafter. While living in this world – this is the pattern in which my thougths will flow.
If you provide me your Name,place of birth,date and time of birth, I can predict how your thinking will be in general life. You can always learn and improve your thoughts,speech and deeds and improve your life here and hereafter:
1) Brahmin Varna : Person whose Birth Rashi is Cancer or Scorpio or Pisces is considered Brahmin by Varna in Hindu Vedic Astrology .
2) Kshatriya Varna : Person whose Birth Rashi is Aries or Leo or Sagittarius is considered Kshatriya by Varna in Hindu Vedic Astrology.
3) Vaishya Varna : Person whose Birth Rashi is Taurus or Virgo or Capricorn is considered Vaishya by Varna in Hindu Vedic Astrology.
4) Shudra Varna : Person whose Birth Rashi is Gemini or Libra
Horroscope is an important part of hinduism and as a child is born the very first thing is to get the horroscope. In earlier times, people were able to get the complete information about past lives also – so you can know why you were born as in your varna and how can you improve yourself – here and hereafter.
karuraham tatobhi shagupal prakshini nanA |
nAnAdiyO vasooyavO (a) mugAyiva tasthi mendrAyandO parisrava ||
"I am a poet, my father is a physician and my mother grinds corn on stone. Being engaged in different occupations, we seek wealth and happiness as cows seek food in different pastures"
This shows the utter lack of class consciousness in Rigvedic period.
Now let us take up the Purusha sooktam. Translation to the mantra of Purusha Suktam (RV 10.8.90) mantra 13
brahmano(a) sya mukhamaseed, bahoo rAjanya: kruta:|
uru tadasya yadvaisyo padbhyo sudro ajAyata||
The brahmin became the head of the Purusha. The Kashatriya became its arms. The Vaisya its torso and the sudra its legs.
The standard interpretation is that of the brahman 'becoming' the head of the Purusha (not 'springing up from' as given by European mischief indologists). The previous mantra 12 in purusha suktam says
" when the Purusha was sacrificed( vyadadhu:) , into what forms he was made ? What became of His head ? What became of his face ? What is said of His Arms ? What are said of His Thighs and feet ?"
So the verse 13, is a continuation of the 'what became of ' line of enquiry .
The mantra 13 (which is being used by anti Hindus and all and sundry to denigrate the Varna system) is in fact a straightforward hymn on the nature of classification of people on naturally existing principles.
As regards the Gita: Krishna says in Chapter 4, sloka 13,
chAturvarnyam mayA srushtam guna karma vibhAgasha: |
The four characteristics which classify people based on character (attitude) and Action are created by me.
This is the correct meaning. Krishna says here 'varnyam' (characteristics) and not 'varnam' (classification). Look at the missing 'y'
And lastly I come to the Jati। This is the achilles' heel of our country in general and our religion in particular. You will be surprised to learn that the Jati classification was made during the 3 rd to 10 th century when Buddhism died out and the returnees made out sects for themselves in Hinduism. But here again, the Jati is different from 'caste' as coined by the British.
Were caste equations always as bad as they are today? Not quite. There were always castes but they were not backward.
A noted Gandhian, Dharampal visited British & Indian archives and reproduced reports of Surveys undertaken by the British in Bengal, Punjab and Madras Presidency (1800-1830). According to Collectors reports reviewed by Governor Sir Thomas Munro on 10/3/1826, of the 30,211 male school students in Madras Presidency 20% were Brahmins and Chettris, 9% were Vaishyas,50% were Sudras, 6% were Muslims and others were 15%. Madras Presidency then consisted of areas that fall in modern day Tamil Nadu, A.P, Orissa, Kerala and Karnataka. Another report by J Dent, Secretary, Fort Geroge dated 21/2/1825 stated that out of 1,88,680 scholars in all collectorates of Madras Presidency Brahmins were 23% while Sudras constituted 45%.
Startling as it may sound, these percentages establish that Sudras not Brahmins comprised the majority of students and scholars. How & Why do the Backward Classes find themselves in the situation they are today?
Before British rule, traditionally, educational institutions were funded by revenue contributions made by the community and State. About one third of the total revenue (from agriculture & sea ports) was assigned for the requirements of social & cultural infrastructure (including education). This system stayed mainly intact through all previous political turmoils. The British, however, increased the quantum of land revenue and adversely changed the terms of payment for the community. They centralized collection of revenue, leaving hardly any revenue to pay for social and cultural infrastructure.
Further, the means of the manufacturing classes (small scale enterprises or SME in today’s parlance) were greatly diminished by the introduction of European goods. Craftsmen especially those engaged in the making of cloth, manufacture and mining of metals, construction work were through fiscal and other devices reduced to a state of homelessness.
Sapped for funds, educational institutions and manufacturing classes became history, leading to grave consequences. One, it obliterated literacy and knowledge amongst the Indian people. Two, it destroyed the Indian social balance in which, traditionally, persons from all sections of society appear to have received a significant degree of schooling. Three, this destruction along with economic plunder led to great deterioration in the status, socio-economic conditions and personal dignity of those, now known as scheduled castes; and to a lesser degree, that of the vast peasant majority encompassed by the term ‘backward castes’.
From about the end of the 19th century, various factors began to attempt a reversal of the results of British policy. This led to what are now known as backward caste movements. The manner, in which their objectives are presented however, seems to suggest that the ‘backward’ status they are struggling against is some ancient phenomenon. In reality, however, their cultural and economic backwardness (as distinct from their ritualistic status on specific occasions) is post 1800, and what basically all such movements are attempting to achieve is the restoration of the position, status, and rights of these peoples prior to 1800.
Dharampal wrote in ‘Rediscovering India’,“For the British, as perhaps for some others before them, caste has been a great obstacle, in fact, an unmitigated evil not because the British believed in casteless ness or subscribed to non-hierarchical system but because it stood in the way of their breaking Indian society, hindered the process of atomization, and made the task of conquest and governance more difficult”.
The interest in caste peaked around 1891 when the census came out with what were termed as Index of Castes. The word ‘caste’ is of Spanish origin and fails to capture the meaning of the Indian term,“jati,” which more properly translated as “community.” Jati in traditional India promoted and preserved diversity and multiculturalism by allotting every jati a particular space and role in society so that no jati would be appropriated or dominated by another. America, which has long glorified the ideal of a “melting pot” of one assimilated culture, is now coming to see the value of the “salad bowl” model, in which different cultures co-exist in harmony. The epitome of this model was the Indian jati system, revealing that our ancient practices are relevant to the modern world. Moreover, the jati system was integral to the survival of the Indian nation: in Swami Vivekananda’s words:“Caste is an imperfect institution no doubt. But if it had not been for caste, you would have had no Sanskrit books to study. This caste made walls, around which all sorts of invasions rolled and surged but found it impossible to breakthrough.”
Perfect Kapil. When someone writes stuff using quotes then he can always leave the bad parts. If caste system was not even there why was a Karna from Mahabarath so humiliated by all the great people in the courts of Hastinapura by the "good hearted" pandavas.
More importantly what is that Arya samaj all about? provoking division by projecting Aryans were superior than than the dravidians and other natives?? or is it something that was started to restore the brahmin superiority???
1. Do you have any proof that the story of Mahabharat you read today is what actually happened 6000 years ago and there has been no changes in the text?
2. Do you have any proof to claim that whatever happened during Mahabharat era was strictly as per Vedas?
3. Can you cite a single mantra from Vedas that justify birth-based caste-system?
4. Have you even read any Arya Samaj text ever? Can you cite one single line from any Arya Samaj text which project Aryans as superior to Dravidians?
5. Do you even know the meaning of Arya?
6. Do you know meaning of Brahmin and do you know how it is defined in Vedas and Arya literature?
Your hatred against Vedas prove that either you are in league of Jaichand or Ghori. In either case, you deserve the same treatment from all who believe in reason and facts. It is so interesting that no one could provide a single fact to counter any fact in all the articles on Agniveer site and have merely come up with these spiteful comments!
Angira
AEB
1. Do you have any proof that the story of Mahabharat you read today is what actually happened 6000 years ago and there has been no changes in the text? 2. Do you have any proof to claim that whatever happened during Mahabharat era was strictly as per Vedas? 3. Can you cite a single mantra from Vedas that justify birth-based caste-system? 4. Have you even read any Arya Samaj text ever? Can you cite one single line from any Arya Samaj text which project Aryans as superior to Dravidians? 5. Do you even know the meaning of Arya? 6. Do you know meaning of Brahmin and do you know how it is defined in Vedas and Arya literature? Your hatred against Vedas prove that either you are in league of Jaichand or Ghori. In either case, you deserve the same treatment from all who believe in reason and facts. It is so interesting that no one could provide a single fact to counter any fact in all the articles on Agniveer site and have merely come up with these spiteful comments! Angira AEB
Bhrahman means narrator of knowledge or Vedas ,Khatriya means worrier ,Vishya means Business class and Shudra means Owner of land. Four verna means Knowledge,sword,money and ownership of land should not be possessed by an individual at a time.
@ abhijeet4288 :
This is how the caste system is introduced..and you ppl (Brahmins) are dominating in India…!!!
Chanakya was brahmin while Chandra gupta was not,Amatya Rakshas was brahmin while Parmananda(evil king) was sudra.Why only Brahmins were protrayed as most wicked.If we look even on post vedic and pre buddhist we will see that they were most poor, was not allowed to own land, forbidden to do agricultue, can not ask gold or aspect favour from ruling class,and were just made to live on fruits and grains given by others.Only when people started thinking that education is better than warfare they gain respect.
Also Sadhus and Sanyasies were never brahmins.
There was no caste system in ancient India during the Ramayana or Mahabharata period.It was just that some sections of vedic civilisation were called as Mlecchas or Sudras who did follow vedic rituals thats all.But Mackualay was searching for a small point to capitalize and divide India on basis of caste system which would make it easy for British rule.Hence the western historians propogated the ancient hoax of caste system practiced in ancient India.
@ Nakul:
You forget the story of Karna…i think…….thats why you are speaking like that…!!!
Sir..please read that also…they belong to Mahabharatha…!!!
SSS you are the biggest Jerk I have ever seen on one side you say you hate Brahmins and on other side you worship MAHABRAHMIN RAVANA (Ravana was called Mahabrahmin) you pakistani.
I think you who has forgotten the story of Mahabharata the prime minister of Hastinapur and Indraprastha was VIDUR who was a DASI PUTRA and LORD KRISHNA was from lower caste. So there is no Caste System in Mahabharata.
Varna system is a universal phenomenon and existed throughout the world. Swami Vivekananda also confirms this in his writings about the world historic events. Only in India we have given a specific name for the Varnas & framed certain set of rules. (Spiritual advisors or Gurus, warrior class or ruling class, business class and working class) But this system is vanished everywhere including in India to-day. Now every body belongs to working class only.
Like Varna system cast system is also existing everywhere throughout the world. But except in India other countries restricted this within that group and kept this classification away from society and Government. Cast classification are self made by a group of people based on the place where they lived, work they do, religious customs and tradition they followed, mannerisms they practice within their family groups, annual prayer to their hereditary deity etc., They meet during the religious functions and family functions and exchange their well being. Identification of suitable boys and girls within their group for marriages. The group village chief will give rulings for any dispute. For severe crime the person is debarred from the community. It is a greatest shame in those days and they loose respect in society. It is self sufficient and self controlled system as long as it is separated from society and Government. Hindu society has got a common worship place and burial ground. Where as in the cast less Abrahamic cult they have separate worship places and burial grounds for different groups.
Varna system collapsed in India during Muslim invasion and there were only a few cast groups till the arrival of British rulers. Due to divide and rule policy of British this cast system given entry into the society and Government. A well planned and planted discriminative attitude sowed by them grown up to-day beyond controllable limit due wrong reservation policies and the full benefactor is politicians even to-day.
Whatever cast discrimination or atrocities committed on dalit in India is very negligible and much harmless. Only the politicians and media are exaggerating for publicity and political gain. When compared to the atrocities committed by the Abrahamic cult throughout the world in the name of religion, racism, slavery, witch haunt, jihad, inquisitions, colonization etc., shows voluminous historic record killing crores and crores of people, destroying their customs and culture. Their venomous mind set to exploit the world is not changed till to-day. Both are applying different types of strategies every where through back door and creating unrest for mankind. Hence cast discrimination in India is a negligible factor to be ignored. This will vanish once the reservation quota system is removed. Introduction of creamy layer system definitely helps to eradicate the so called cast discrimination if at all any thing is existing. Politicians are finding difficulties to get political gains through cast divisions. Hence started appeasing minorities
In fact the biggest unfortunate crime in India is minoritisms. Every politician is exploiting in the disguise of minortism and cheating the majority in-turn looting the countries wealth, creating unrest everywhere. This is worst than the cast discrimination and the minority identification to be abolished immediately.
According to me when one is born he is identified as male or female and all other identifications are society enforced like nationality, religion and cast group. When one has the right to change his nationality if he settle in other country, when one has the right to change his religion as per his choice, WHY NOT ALLOW CHANGE OF CAST GROUP?
Nationality is a general identification based on the birth place. Even for changing the nationality in a foreign land one has to full fill so many conditions and also to wait for long time to get the changed citizenship. It is not something like dipping you in bath tub, putting a cross dollar in the neck and saying from to-day you are a Christian. The majority becomes minority and he is eligible for all the minority benefits. Is it logic? Cast & religion are based on who gave birth to you and it is permanent and can not be changed. If change of religion is justifiable by law then change of cast group is also justifiable. I am willing change my cast group and want to announce that I am converted to dalit community and except the government to provide all the reservation benefit. Is it OK ????????????
@vedamgopal
Reservation has nothing to do with Caste-System, they (women, SC) were so suppressed so to up lift them the reservation is introduced…
But even Ambedkar wanted it to remove after specific time.. Other wise it will be reason to hold on with this stupid birth based caste system..
You are talking about nationality, its utterly mistaken by you.. even charley chplin knew it long back, this was created by selfish economists… who wanted to up-hold imperialism with national boundaries and currency manipulations.. (similar to the birth-based caste system)
FYI: I know many Raos, Reddys or so called brahmins & kshatriays hold fake SC caste certificate for reservation..
As advaita vedanta says no barriors buddy.. even I believe male/female differenciation is invalied on spiritual plane..
The brahmins and oother upper castes would be happy if they are made SC/STs in today’s India for getting reservation benefits. Even the Dalit Christians and Dalit Muslims want reservation benefits!!
Thanks brother, You are doing a great job. You are a true follower of Sanatan Dharmja. Sir, our Hinduism was greatly misinterpreted and mistranslated.
My opinion is caste system has evolved as a historical process due to trade associations. These trade associations were the centres of specialization in various trades as there were no training institutes in the way they exist today. It was easy for a young member of a family to learn the trade skills from the other elder members. Slowly, these trade associations make their own rules for fostering these skills but in course of time even the marital relations were being established with the members of the same trade associations. This marital relationship with another member of the same trade facilitated the incoming of further skilled person in the same trade. In course of time these rules were made strict and gave birth to castes. That’s the reason we see all the castes attached with certain occupation such as goldsmith, blacksmith, washerman, milkman, carpenter etc. It’s preposterous to think that one fine morning a Brahman woke up and promulgated his own list of castes and the king implemented it throughout the Aryavarta. Even today the castes are evolving. For example, the castes of politicians and industrialists and they are going to the top most echelon of the social order.Of course, we need to do a lot more research.
@ Satyenji,
Namaste
I agree with your opinion and it is similar to Ram Swaroopji’s
http://indianrealist.wordpress.com/2009/11/20/what-caste-actually-was-like/
There can be many other interesting point of views. However, Caste-ism: how it evolved, is one amongst several other complex questions. In my opinion, Universities/research institutes are the best places to study it. And this must be extensively promoted. However, open debates at any public forum does create awareness.
If we try to find out any positivity out of Caste based division in the society. In my opinion, it has helped to some extent for newly wed couple to adjust easily in each others family. Because, people of different castes does tend of have slightly different living styles and to some extent beliefs as well.
But in modern times, the concept of joint-family system is already vanishing at fast pace. Even in villages, its hard to find large joint families these days. Further due to job commitments or for education purposes, younger generation usually move out of their native place. This trend is very vividly visible. Other sources like Bollywood, TV, internet etc. is slowly working towards creating a mix of culture (without getting noticed). All this will continuously work towards diluting any such rigid customs in the future
.
Thus the only advantage that I could possibly think of will also do away in near future. In fact, I believe over a period of next few decades caste-ism will definitely loose its grip on the society.
Apart from the above mentioned minor positivity, which itself is doing away very rapidly, Caste-ism is a menace to the society.As a progressive and educated society it is expected that our elected politicians must work cohesively with the communities (nation wide) to abolish Caste-ism completely. And I am quite sure, if our politicians/government shows some will in committing itself for this purpose, caste-ism can become a remote history in few generations (between 50-100 years).
Unfortunately, majority politicians in modern day Bhartiye politics are extremely weak and short-sighted.
They do not have confidence in their abilities to win elections by raising other issues.
Likes of Mayawat, Mulayam and Laloo firmly believe that Caste based political agenda is the only center point to win them Chief ministers kursi. These types of politicians wants to keep this menace alive longer.
Although it has been turning out true for them so far, but it won’t last long.
Dhanayad
@VikramAditya
I liked your post indeed.. but
‘Bollywood, TV, internet etc. ‘ these are the biggest disgrace on India in my opinion. Because of these many Indians are busy in their self sensual enjoyments, without caring about neighbours sorrows..
I don’t want to get into illegal relationships and their effects..
Already india is devoid of purity of husband & wife relations. I fear that sooner mother’s love will be scarce in mother India as west..
Atharvaved 19.62.1:
May all noble people admire me. May kings and Kshatriyas admire me. May all look at me with admiration. May the Shudras and Vaishyas admire me.
हद हो गई मूर्खता की इस मंत्र मे यज्ञ करने वाला ब्राह्मण यह अग्निदेवता से कह रहा है की -हे अग्निदेव ! आप हमे देवताओ व राजाओ का प्रिय बनाए , शूद्रो आर्यों आदी सभी दर्शको का भी प्रिय पात्र बनाए ।
बंद क्यूँ नाही कर देते यह सब कल मे आकर इस पोस्ट के एक-एक मंत्र का सही अर्थ बताऊंगा ।
Agniveer admins:
Pls don’t pay heed to this idiot. He is simply translating the Christian Missionaries’ (read Griffith’s) translation into hindi.
See this – http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/av/av19062.htm
Griffith’s translation – Make me beloved among the Gods, beloved among the Princes, make me dear to everyone who sees, to Sūdra and to Aryan man.
Now see what this idiot has done —
-हे अग्निदेव ! आप हमे देवताओ व राजाओ का प्रिय बनाए , शूद्रो आर्यों आदी सभी दर्शको का भी प्रिय पात्र बनाए
I shall expose this idiot on facebook now. he is not a hindu, but a missionary in disguise of a hindu name !
Anyone who knows English and Hindi even a bit would know that you have written only what has been written by us in the mantra meaning in English.
Please first clear your stand on women and birth-based caste system and right to study Vedas and do yajna. Only then will we allow any future post from you on the site.
The BIGGEST LIE MUSLIM TELL is there is no caste system in their religion and PERVERT PSEUDO HISTORIAN ROMILA THAPAR’S also lied that Islamic Invasion also helped in mellowing down the effects of caste system Infact it become strong after Islamic Invasion. Ashraf muslims consider themselves superior to lower caste Ajlaf Muslims and Arzal Muslims are considered untouchables. Pakistan is more casteist than India that is proven by infamous Mukhtaran Mai gang rape case by upper caste muslims and many other cases like this. Salman Taseer killing has also casteist touches because Mullahs cannot digest a man from business community challenge the power of clergy . In Pakistan untoucability is practiced even in urban areas the shias, ahmediyas, Hindus are considered untouchables and Sunni Muslims do not share their food with them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asian_Muslims
One More thing “BR AMBEDKAR HAS TOLD THAT MUSLIM CASTE SYSTEM IS MUCH WORSE THAN HINDU CASTE SYSTEM”
For all the Ambedkar Fans, the bad news is that the man has been thoroughly Exposed in the classical work of Arun Shourie in his book– “Worshiping False Gods.” Every myth regarding this “great” man has been busted with -DOCUMENTARY- Evidence. A must read…
Dear Brother Sameer, these historians of our country are the biggest traitors, they have DESTROYED AND RUINED OUR HISTORY. Their is one D.N. Jha -from the stable of communist perverts who wrote a whole book asserting that eating BEEF (Cow’s flesh) had been a norm in India since “time-immemorial” and that it was only after 19th century that people like Swami Dayanand stood against this “ancient” practice!!! Imagine the brazenness of these retarded “self-styled intellectuals”. This fellow does not see Lord Krishna, whose love for cows is infinite!! There are many more of his kind in their community, who “unfortunately” are burdened with writing history TEXT-BOOKS for Young Children!!!!!!!!!
कृषिगौरक्ष्यवाणिज्यं वैश्यकर्म स्वभावजम्।
परिचर्यात्मकं कर्म शूद्रस्यापि स्वभावजम्॥१८-४४॥
Agriculture, rearing of cows and honest
exchange of merchandise — these constitute the
natural duty of a Vaisya (a member of the trading
class); and service of the other classes is the
natural duty even of a sudra (a member of the
labouring class). (BG – 18.44)
.
loed krishna on duties of vaishya..[:)]
Pratap Brother I am not a fan of BR Ambedkar, Muslims have penchant to quote BR Ambedkar regarding Hindu Caste System so I am giving them their own medicine that Ambedkar himself has said that Muslim Caste System is worse than Hindu Caste System. Yes you are very correct communist historians are fifth column communities except in islamic countries these communist historians use tactics of disinformation in their Target country so that people feel inferior about their national identity and adopt communist identity.
http://users.smartgb.com/g/g.php?a=s&i=g18-18827-d4
Beef eating stoped in 19th century ????????????
must be jocking to light down the mood.
Even in Vedic a milking cow was agahan can not be killed only bulls and non milking cows were.
Vedas hailed people who were vegetarians, the sramanas and the atheist too.
Cow eating stoped even before buddha (Jinas have been credited) mostly because it prooved soooooo profitable live and also because Jinas.
learn agniveer dont divide – from Arya Samaj
http://www.mybigflix.com/home/tv-shows/hum-log/hum-log/4150
Treatment of Shudras in the Vedas Compared to Later Hindu Scriptures
This comment addresses the treatment of shudras in the Vedas and discusses the 17 mantras that have the word shudra in them. Historically, Hindu (Arya) society was divided into four separate groups (varna) namely brahmin, kshatriya, vaishya and shudra. Shudras included persons who were laborers; those who were neither educated nor skilled and performed work for the other groups. Originally, there were no untouchables; however, eventually those members of the shudra group who performed the most unpleasant tasks, such as cleaning the latrines or cremating the dead, became designated as such. The shudras belonged to the bottom rung of the society and were often treated with disdain. This was justified on the basis of the Hindu scriptures and its origin was and continues to be attributed to the Vedas. All Hindus regard Vedas as the root scriptures of their beliefs.
By the 8th century CE, the accepted belief in Hindu society was that Vedas were so sacred that only brahmins, kshatriyas, or vaishyas were eligible to learn them. The Shudras were denied the opportunity to hear or learn Veda mantras and if they persisted, they could suffer severe punishment e.g. the pouring of molten lead into their ears (athāsya vedamupashrnvatastrapujatubhyam shrotrapratipoornam Shankara Brahamsutrabhashya 1:3:38; Gautam Dharma Sutra 2:3:4). Shankracharya, Ramanuja and others supported this belief and the practice of denying Vedas to the shudras remained the acceptable norm and faith in Hindu society until the 19th century CE.
What do the Vedas actually say about the shudras? The 17 mantras with the word shudra in them are as follows: Rig Veda (10:90:12); Yajur Veda (14:30; 18:48; 20:17; 23:30; 23:31; 26:2; 30:5; 30:22; 31:11); Atharva Veda (4:20:4; 4:20:8; 5:22:7; 10:1:3; 19:6:6; 19:32: 8; 19:62:1).
Yathemām vācham kalyānim āvadāni janebhyah.
Brahma-rājanyābhyām shudrāya cha aryāya cha svāya cha aranāya cha. (Yajur Veda 26:2).
The message here is that the Veda mantras are for the welfare and prosperity of all human beings including brahmins, rulers, shudras or vaishyas, as well as whether they are our kin or strangers.
Rucham no dhehi brāhmaneshu rucham rājsu naskradhi.
Rucham vishyeshu shudreshu mayi dhehi ruchā rucham. (Yajur Veda 18:48).
Lord, Give or bestow radiance (luster) to our brahmins, rulers, vaishyas and shudras. Give me radiance so that I too may become radiant.
Priyam mā darbh kranu brahmrājānyabhyam shudrāya cha aryāya cha.
Yasmai cha kāmyāmahe sarvasmai cha vipashyate. (Atharva Veda 19:32:8).
Lord, you are darbh—the destroyer of the wicked enemies. Make me dear to the learned, rulers, shudras, vaishyas and those whom we desire and all those who have different outlook.
Priyam mā kranu deveshu priyam rājsu mā kranu.
Priyam sarvasva pashyat uta shudra utārye. (Atharva Veda 19:62:1).
Make me dear to the learned, rulers, shudras, vaishyas and all who see me.
Yadgrāme yadaranye yatsabhāyām yadindriye.
Yachchhudre yadarye yadenashchkramā vayam yadekasyādhi dharmani tasyāvayajanasmasi. ( Yajur veda 20:17).
Lord, whatever sins we may have committed in the villages, in the forest, in meetings, against the shudras or vaishya, against any aspect of dharma, may you help us overcome our sins or shortcomings.
Brāhmanoasya mukhmāsid bāhū rājanyah krtah.
Madhyam tadasya yad vaishyah padbhyām shūdro ajāyata. (Atharva Veda 19:6:6).
The brahmin is His (Supreme Person’s, Lord’s,) mouth, the raja is His two arms. The vaishya is His middle (abdomen, belly); the shudra is born of His two feet.
This mantra is usually attributed as the basis of disdain for the shudras because it states shudra is born of Lord’s two feet. Let us look at the symbolism used in this mantra while describing the Supreme Person and varnas. Mouth is for talking, implying that learned persons are the spokesperson for the Lord or Society. Mouth is also the entry point for food, it makes sure that food is of good quality, but it does not hoard it, instead it passes food on to the abdomen (vaishya). The arms are our means of doing work and protecting ourselves. They help us get food but they again do not hoard it, instead they pass food on to the abdomen. Abdomen (vaishya) is for digesting the food (or wealth), and distributing the digested food (wealth) to all parts of the body (or society) to provide them with energy to do their work, but not to hoard it in the abdomen. A thin waist is better than a big potbelly as far health is concerned—obesity causes disease. The feet (shudra) support the body (or society). The labor of the shudras is what supports all societies. Feet or legs are integral components of the body, they support the body and help it move; we do not cut them off. A footless body can not move easily. Most Hindu devotional bhajans (songs) speak of praying at the Lord’s feet not at his head or mouth. The temple priest gives Prasād of Charnāmrit-food that has touched the feet (not head) of the moorti (icon) of the Lord.
Brāhmanoasya mukhmāsid bāhū rājanyah krtah.
Ūrū tadasya yad vaishyah padbhyām shūdro ajāyata. (Rig Veda 10:90:12, and Yajur Veda 31:11).
This mantra essentially states the same as the previous mantra except at the beginning of the second line word Ūrū which means large, thighs or abdomen has replaced word Madhyam (middle, abdomen) in the previous mantra.
In the remaining nine mantras which contain the word shudra, the shudras are treated with due respect as the other varnas. Because of the space limitation, these mantras are not described here further but will be discussed later.
Until the 19th century CE, hereditary brahmins were considered the learned and controlled learning among all classes of Hindu society for over two thousand years. The Brahmins, with the support of the ruling classes, successfully used selective scriptures and unscrupulous interpretations of earlier scriptures along with the pretext of divine religious authority to deny shudras the opportunity of learning, thereby preventing them to improve their social status in Hindu society.
In the 1840’s Mahatma Jotiba (Jotirao) Phule became an outspoken advocate for the rights of shudras on the moral grounds of equality. He started a school for shudra girls to emphasize this concept of equality. Brahmins heavily criticized these actions of Phule as being against teachings of Hindu scriptures. Since Phule was not well versed in scriptures he could not provide an adequate scriptural defense. Beginning in the 1870’s Swami Dayanand Saraswati, a learned Brahmin, used the authority of the Vedas to challenge the religious authority of the brahmins and the misdirected faith of Hindus in what he considered to be wrong interpretations of the scriptures. In his books and lectures, Swami Dayanand promoted the idea that scriptures and beliefs that are against God’s benevolence for all, or are against the teachings of the Vedas should be rejected. He encouraged all varnas of the Hindu society including shudras to learn Vedas and to have faith in truth alone. Fifty years later Mahatma Gandhi championed the rights of untouchables. Following the independence of India, equal rights for all varnas became the law, even though untouchability is still practiced in many parts of India.
Although the unfair treatment of shudras in Hindu society is often attributed to the Vedas, in fact it can be ascribed to later prejudicial Hindu scriptures as well as the unscrupulous interpretation of the earlier scriptures.
Yajurved 20.17:
Whatever crime we have committed against my village, forest or committee; whatever crime we have committed through our organs, whatever crime we have committed against Shudras and Vaishyas, whatever crime we have done in matters of Dharma, kindly forgive us relieve us from the tendency of the same.
Respected Agniveerji,
Thanks for the very inspiring website about our Dharma.
1) The above mentioned verse mention crime against shudras. Does that mean there was heirchy and curbing mindset even during vedic times.
2) What was the need of the varnas, its not of any benificial atleast in the current era.
3) Did the sages who wrote vedas had no insight about the future implications of these varnas.
4) Whats the solution?
5) Whats your say about reservation?
Our saints seemed to have insight about evrything apart from the caste sysytem. They have got evrything right, but for this one varnas.
SUPPRESS LOWER CAST PEOPLE
” avidhom shchiva vidoscha brahmano divatham “(narada smrithi 9:317)
“A brahmin, whether he scholar or madman, believe that he is god”
” dushelo pi dhijo pujanitho shudro jidendriya “(parashra smrithi 8:33)
“a brhmin Butcher is better than scholar shudra ”
“A Brahmin equal to god, they must forcefully suppress the lower cast people make them their slaves” (manusmrithi 9:317)
” shakthanopi hishudrana na karyo dhan sanjaya “(manusmrithi 10:129)
“shudra no right to education (Veda) and earn money”
” visrabdham brahmana srudad dravyo padanama charathe nahi thasyakthi kinjith swom barthey harodhanohisa “(manusmrithi 8:417)
“If they (shudra) have any asset, Brahmin must forcefully recapture the entire asset from shudra”
“If shudra talk against the Brahmin suddenly cut his Tongue, if he try to beat (action is enough) to Brahmin by his hand or leg, Brahmin suddenly cut that (hand or leg) body part as soon as possible “(manusmrithi 8:279-283)
golwaker says about manusmrithi “this is the social law that world ever and never saw like that. None of principle likes it.”
(Golwaker: From the Red fort grounds)
From bagavath geetha Krishna says that”i create four castes for different quality and duty. ” chathur varnyam maya srishtom guna karma vibagasha “(bagvath geetha 4:13)
Krishna says “different cast have different duty “(bagvath geetha 8:41-45)
“When a Brahmin killed the shudra jailed him one year and 12 cow penalty. But in case of shruda killed the Brahmin punishment was different killed him three short period with fire”
(gowthama dharmasuthram Ibid page-95)
“The Hindu Veda and Upanishath never give permission to shudra, women and other low cast Hindu, to prey temple and study the Veda and science”
(Indian Express 4-4-1988)
“If a shudra walking with Brahmin, beat him with scourge. if he steal kill him(punishment of Brahmin only bind his eye with cloth one or two hours).if he have desire to sexual affection with Brahmin girl,…
beat him with scourge. if he steal kill him(punishment of Brahmin only bind his eye with cloth one or two hours).if he have desire to sexual affection with Brahmin girl, first cut his sexual organ, then capture his asset, then kill him. If he hearing the Veda captures him, cut the Tongue, pour the melted lead to his ear. ”
(Swami krishnanada: aparthed system in India page 93-95)
NB:These verses indicate that ‘Brahmin’ is not belongs to his ‘karma’, it belongs to his ‘janma’.we can see from Upanishad “born Brahmin yoni” and “born shudra yoni”.
===========================================================================
SUPPRESS LOWER CAST PEOPLE II:
Hindu religious scriptures, however, do give out the call to violence and injustice. For instance, in the Kaushithaki Brahmanopanishad Indran is quoted as saying, “Na’Mathravadena na Pithravadena nasthayena na broona hathys nasya paapam chana chakrasho mukaneelam vetheethi (3:1)
(Even if my people were to kill their mother and father; even if they were to steal and to practice infanticide; even if they were to commit such sins, they are to feel no remorse. Their faces should never be down-cast)
During the period of Ramayana Brahmin never died their lives. A Brahmin visits the palace of Rama; his complaint was that his son died. Raman discuss his pundit acharya,they know that a shudra(Shambukan)Penance for getting heven.Raman cut his head at mean time Brahmin boy got his life.
What we saw from the story is Raman was an ideal person?
There is nothing that is despicable in the legal prescription
Of the Qur’an. However, in some of the other religious scriptures there is a clear distinction between a person of a higher caste and another of a lower caste. For example, consider the punishment prescribed by the Manu Smrithi for insult and abuse: “ The punishment for the Kshatriya who insults the Brahman is one hundred coins; for the Vaishya it will be two hundred coins and for the Shudra it will be the whip. If the Brahman were to insult the…
the Kshatriya his punishment would be fifty coins, if he insults the vaishya it would be twenty five coins and if the Shudra, twelve coins ”
(Manu Smrithi 8:267, 268)
Slavery existed in ancient India as a part of the rigid caste system that prevailed here. The caste system which originated as a result of the hegemony of priesthood continued to be an essential part and way of life of Hinduism. It is in the Rig Veda which is accepted as the most important of the Shrutis that we find the first seeds of the concept of caste system. (Purusha verse of the Rig Veda 10:90:12).It was but natural that under the caste system that was based on the reference in the Rig Veda that “the Brahman is created from the head, the Vaishya from the hands and the Sudra from the feet of the Parampurusha”, the Brahman was considered highly and the Sudra of a lowly stature. All the books of Hinduism have only sought to justify the caste system.
============================================================================
SUPPRESS LOWER CAST PEOPLE III:
The Bhagavath Gita, which is known to be the book of shruthi of modern Hinduism, has itself said: “Chaturvarnyam Mayasrishtam guna karma Vibagusha
” (4:13). this means that, “I have created the four castes according to the division of their deeds.” It was natural then that the one who was created from the feet of God was destined to a life of foot-service alone. Indeed, it was believed that the sudra was specially created for the very purpose of service alone. The religious scriptures had taught that one is born of a lower caste owing to the sins of an earlier life and that if one is to attain salvation at least in the next life, he is to render service to those of the higher castes and employ himself in keeping them satisfied in this life.“Shreyan swdarmo viguna para dermal swanushtithal swdarmea nidanam shreya paradarmo bayavaha” (bagavath geetha 3:35). The Chandoupanishad has compared those of the lower caste to pigs
And dogs. From the Upanishath we can understand that…
‘chandalan’ and ‘shudra’are equal to street dogs. (Chandokya Upanishath 5:10:7). A reading of the Manusmrithi and the Parasharasmrithi will serve to show that the attitude and conduit adopted towards them was crueler and wicked than that shown to the animals.
Observe the punishment prescribed by the Apasthamba Dharma Sutra:“The Sudra who kills a Brahman must be burnt to death slowly by immersing him thrice in fire. However, if a Sudra is killed by any, it would be sufficient to award one year imprisonment and a fine of twelve cows as penalty.” (As quoted by Krishnananda Swami in ‘The Caste-Wars in India’, P.94)
All the laws in the ManuSmrithi are, in their formulation, based on the caste system. This deplorable tendency is evident throughout the laws which sanctify the position of the Brahman while, at the same time, debase that of the Sudra.Wide disparity exists in the punishment prescribed for a
Brahman who commits a crime and the punishment for a Sudra who commits the similar one. Briefly then, these laws were not framed for the whole of humanity; they are meant for a society wherein caste system prevails.
@Shabeer
Please put the verse not translation. The verses you have mentioned are not part any scripture. I think you ownself write anything in the name of scripture. If I write Allah is fool & cruel entity (Kuran 5:15), it can not be proved true without mentioning original verse with it. Do you understand.
@shabeer: Poor you just like your brethren who just blabber to feel good
)
here is the actual scripture. (by Krishnananda
http://www.dharmicscriptures.org/Chandogya_withEnglish%28Krishnananda%29.pdf
There is no such book as you mention and obviously p94 does not exist…except in Facebook.
@Aryavratasth
He might have picked the ‘chandalan’ and ‘shudra’ words from a well known verse in gita which says – a realized man will not differentiate between a learned pandit , a chandala, a dog and dog eater.
By supressing the sentence upto pandit , abrahamic religions are trying to portray that chandala=dog.
i specified here like (As quoted by Krishnananda Swami in ‘The Caste-Wars in India’, P.94)
not Chandogya_withEnglish%28Krishnananda%
read the following
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism)
a first class reply my friend,this is the method to escape the truth.i think u r hindu,u have no of veda that i specified there,open it,read it i give the verses no.if not prove the exact veres here,that a morl way of answering……………………..i expecting the valid replay…..
@shabeer
>>Chaturvarnyam Mayasrishtam guna karma Vibagusha
This is called categorizing people based on their gunas and karma(which influences gunas). There is no mention of birth based caste here
>>Shreyan swdarmo viguna para dermal swanushtithal swdarmea nidanam shreya paradarmo bayavaha
I will give the interpretation of ramana maharshi( a hindu saint) for this.
“swadarma here means abiding in the self and doing our duty without atachment to results”
deviating from the natural state causes fear which may be the meaning of paradarmo bayavaha.
Can i ask you why are you trying to write all these verses? A hindu can reject all these verses and still remain a hindu. Hinduism is not like islam where one will be put to death just because a person uttered “I am truth”. Infact many hindu text openly prescribe to reject everything(even a personal god) and find out what they call “THAT”.
“swadarma here means abiding in the self and doing our duty without atachment to results”
who claim it? can you give a authorised scripture about it?
“Infact many hindu text openly prescribe to reject everything”
that means some verses in the veda r created by somone is it? u agree?
@shabeer
>>who claim it? can you give a authorised scripture about it?
a person called ramana maharshi interpreted it – http://talks-with-ramana-maharshi.blogspot.com/2007/05/talk-58.html
authorization – hindu have no central structure to authorise, different people can differ without the guilt of going to hell.
>>that means some verses in the veda r created by somone is it? u agree?
No what i mean is knowledge of god is not got by reading books or repeating some verses from veda.
It should be gained by experiencing, and one of the popular way is to reject everything (neti) which is not you.
@Shabeer : Once you raised the same question, and I have answered you with word by word translation. What the hell are you ? You could not answer my replies. And after a long time you are pasting the same garbage. Are you really want truth ?? This attitude shows your nature. This proves, you are really worried of the truth, and you just cant dare to accept the truth.
@akhi
you never replay perfectly,my intention not about harasment of religion,i respect all religion,theit civilisation,cuture and veda.
but veda and upanishid cantain no of verses against the moralility,i pointed out here,to response my hindu friends.
@Shabeer,
>>but veda and upanishid cantain no of verses against the moralility
Morality is subjective and changes according to time/place. The basic moral rule is “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you”.
The meaning of the below verse of gita even goes further and ask to consider every living being as equal.
vidya-vinaya-sampanne
brahmane gavi hastini
suni caiva sva-pake ca
panditah sama-darsinah
So if you consider something as not accaptable in veda, reject that verse afterall god is the guide of all. hinduism is not a book based religion like islam or bible which condems every non believer to hell.
Hindus have faith in the Vedas as “sruthi” or divinely revealed and therefore true for all time. So why aren’t the orthodox Hindus actually practicing what the Vedas teaches? Why aren’t they offering sacrifices of cows, horses etc to the Vedic gods like Indra, Rudra and so on? Why do they not eat beef like the Vedic Aryans did?
Seems like a case of hypocrisy to me. There are no real Hindus left. Those who call themselves Hindus are really practicing a different religion. Call it Puranism, or Saivism, or Tantrism or whatever but don’t call it Vedic Hinduism.
@adolf
that the new miracle,that morality depend the time/place.you think the quran.1400 years people follow it,there is no change in it.
if the morality depend the time/place that make lot of contradiction.
1)Hinduism hasn’t a static rules and regulation,is it?
2)who give the new rules and regulation?
3) there is time different the new and old rules,that way,what the way of salvation about them?
@shabeer,
>>that the new miracle,that morality depend the time/place.
Yes morality depend on time and place, it is perfectly acceptable for a muslim man to marry 4 women/teens but not accpetable in all other religions/cultures even in west.
Westeners take it lightly if a girl sleeps with many before marriage, but it is not acceptable to muslims/hindus
It is ok for a muslim to kill for blashphemy of muhammad but it is not ok for a budhist/hindu or christian to take life of a person just because some one said budha/krishna/jesus as bad characters.
Even in pakistan a pure land for muslims not all who comitted adultery are stoned to death whereas iran wants to implement it.
>>Hinduism hasn’t a static rules and regulation,is it?
The ideals/goals of vedas are static, but the deviations and acceptable behaviour by society is never static.
>>who give the new rules and regulation?
generally society gives and accepts.
for shivaites and lingayats guru gives,
for others old text books give, but all morals must confirm to the equality/sacredness/non destructability of jeev atma.
>>there is time different the new and old rules,that way,what the way of salvation about them.
The basic rule i.e you should treat others equally never changed. The other rules like polygamy, punishment by the society for deviants changes.
The idea of salvation in hinduism is different for different schools of thought. However the hindu goal is not at all like islamic idea of salvation. Hindus do not expect countless virgins/alcholic drinks as muslims do.
Nice and not Nice.
!st- clear that those caste are not birth one but a convention of human system, nothing to do with equality
2nd-some people do not falls under these four category like Sramanas,The great Jinas,and Sanyasis.
Its easy to see how this system evolved to present day caste system.See-
In India even today it is beleived that a Doctor son will be docto, PCS son will be PCS.(Its very true happening right here but since we now live in open globalised world it may not evolve more than that)
My mother has always seen Mechanics and Ricksawallas as not much deserving,Why-No work is less or more if it fullfills ones need,they are important too.
Its better too look for our present and shape a beautiful future than bothering about The Great Indian history which in turn a Bizzare History where Aryan Invasion is seen as Fact but in outer world its not more than a theory which never got full proof and rock support.
Also don’t say those Idologist were Bad They were not, they may have been biased unintentionaly ‘couse of there earlier education and culture were earth is said to form only 2000 years efore christ.
@Shabbir
Why Should I believe Mohamad was a pedophilia because he did sex with a child.
look>>>>>>>>>>>agniveer.com/forum/Thread-Islam-and-Child-Marriage
agniveer.com/forum/Thread-Islamic-Prophet-at-53-had-sex-with-9-year-old-baby>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
@shabeer
You are fool how dare you put blame Mohamad did sex with a child. But Mohamd never did sex with any child less than 16 years old. & Aisa was daughter of Mohamad. Mohamad was a divine personality and he was aware sex with less than 16 years is a sin. You want to denigrate Mohamad. You are Kaffir.
Also plz see Lord Macaulay’s address to british parliament.
The one which clearly shows the need of divide and rule policy and which promotes the need of propgandizing Aryan Invasion Theory (Truth or Not?).
What Agniveer says is the truth in many rights.
We must know that The socalled Hindu dharm..it’s not actually Hindu or sanatan dharm to be precise. Dharm doesnt form in a day nor even in a century. The Dharm that we claim dscendence to, although has distorted totally, was substantiated and matured in Gupta period the most dominant influence by Emperor Chandragupta dwitiya Vikramaditya. The socalled varna system is very advanced distribution of labour to obviate any conflicts or confusion which describes the basic traits with which all humans are born with and which can even be confirmed by jyotish. Now, intially the King ie. Vikaramaditya was akin to God who prevail;ed over all social systems.. so it had vidvan, kshatriya, vaishya and shudra. Its karm based division that doesnt pass on through blood or birth. After the decline of the most powerful empire in history of Bharat and world (ancient) small empires succeded and it was combined with invasions from non Aryan namely Shaka, Huns etc and the Mugals or muslims. the huge upheavel after 800-1200 AD has had the biggest disaster on Bharat including social system. It must be known that most of kshatriyas and socalled brahmans were killed in rampages by muslims and only left were of the Hindus who were not actually socalled brahmans or kashatriya. But only they survived to lay hold the decree on themselves with no super authority to question them. lakhs of temples, gurukuls, varsities wree destroyed, crores were killed or converted so the essence of dharm at that time was decimated. “chachnama” is actualy recorded history of the tyorments of the mugals in their own words. I have the copy of it in partial form. any system wears out with time, the fragments are many a times are remembered as the whole. Our country Bharat or Aryavart has suffered a lot and also the dharm which can better be called Aryadharm… the curse of casteism, untouchability were one of the most indignant faces including submission and mass ignorance. Brahman is the highest order means…
….the most intellectually evolved, learned and with the highest enlightenment. Brahman could only be one person because tatvagyan cannot be acquired by every learned man. Other learned could be called as Vipra, Dvij (any one put into education after diksha sanskar was a dvij ), pandit etc.. so Brahman cannot be ascribed to everyone. Thats why vidvan is used. Now beside the King and the mukhya vidvan ie Brahman all other were equal..they all four classification varna were decided on their work=performance. In a single family as been quoted from rigveda= 9.112.3 there could be multiple varna of people in the same family. the varna are traits, qualities, propeties, characteristics, talent for a particular task.. so that meant you cannot pass it to your children. You can preate your child but you cannot make it what you want and it can never become of our varna only by being your child. varna doesnt carry in generation. One may inherit field and plough but that doesnt make him a vaishya or shudra, one may inherit sword and shield but that doesnt make him a kshatriya.. but the most important fact is … all born ar shudra, means we all can perform the job of a shudra ie. working and thriving by using our hands or physical work. many of us can work like vaishya means doing trade like opening a shop, some lesser can become kashatriya or warriors.. not everyone can go to army or police. But the very small group of humans are the one who can be brahman or pandit, vidvan, vipra, jyotishi, vaidya, etc etc.. I again say, Brahma is a very evovled state of learned men=pandits who wre the greatest seers like Kashyap, Bhrigu etc etc. All Brahmans have to be celibate or unmarried. They could or they had only disciples, no children. Even though they had children they couldn’t become brahmins by birth only. This was known in those times because jyotish was widely known and accepted in that time. social mobility was possible as family name might not direct one’s own varna.. so one from a family where his fathefarmer ie. a…
….shudra or vaishya (yes, either of it) he could become a Brahman or vidvan or scholar if he had the talent. so the point is, one could only claim a varna if he worked according to that or had a job and talent congenial to that.. that doesnt mean that everybody would be any four of these.. if one doesnt work he cannot be classified among any of these four. And, women were not included into this system because men used to work in professions while women only had to be part of household. there could be a very rare females who were ascoaited with literary work. But that cannot be taken as a profssion. So while one has a profession he must stick to it although he’s free to skip.. to avoid mayhem, rules wre laid later in society to prevent chaos. but that didnt mean that one could be celebrated r hated only on basis of his birthname or family. But this did happen in course of time, and it can happen because of human weakness.. that, one dealing in flowrs, Gods, temples, itra etc is acceptable than a sweeper, worker, labourer. It was and it is indeed the biggest crime by us, all of us, because the Dharm is for everyone and it must be taken to every member of society.but it was forgotten because nobody questioned the wrongs initiateed by the socalled Brahmans.
So one, they were not brahmans actually because there possibility of only 9% of a true Brahman and atmost 30% including who can be “like Brahman”. This is astrological deliniation.. the above mentioned classificarion is not correct fuly.
The varna system was only an academic division not bound by family name..but in distortions it led to communities, caste which is totally wrong. having a caste is not wrong but laying supremacy or inferiority with birth or a particular caste is a sin.. but this sin has been perpetuated. The proper teaching to every member was a responsibility of the pandit or brahman=one invovled in worship etc but that was not done. The curse of untouchability has come with muslims and the state dictated dominancy of today’s…
socalled brahmans is due to divide and rule policy of the britishers. after indepedence it should have been repaired but it has even been spoiled more.
I simply had to thank you so much once again. I’m not certain what I would have achieved without the type of solutions discussed by you directly on such a topic. Completely was an absolute frightful setting in my position, nevertheless observing a new well-written mode you dealt with that made me to weep with fulfillment. Extremely grateful for your support and as well , expect you recognize what a great job you have been undertaking training the mediocre ones by way of your website. I am certain you’ve never got to know any of us.
I don’t understand why one should blame Gandhiji for giving the name Harijans instead of applauding him. Actually Gandhi only adopted a name already current in Gujarat and applied it countrywide. What is so denigrating if one caste is called children of the God which that name means? He wanted to convince the upper castes that it is not good to ostracize them or oppress them since they are also children of the God. That was his way of dealing with problems. Even Ambedkar did not fight with him on this name until very late in the day, it seems. Actually the word, Dalit, which means ‘cut off’ is rather insipid since it only points out to a condition already existing and not to an ideal or ethics which should be achieved. And now we see, even many or all backward castes (OBCs) are also sought to be brought under that ‘dalit’ category, diluting the efforts to identify the problems of the most downtrodden or ostracized sections of the society.