No textual corruption in Vedas

This article is also available in Hindi at http://agniveer.com/3887/why-vedas-cannot-be-changed-hi/

This article is also available in Gujarati at http://agniveer.com/why-vedas-cannot-be-changed-gu/

(READ THIS CAREFULLY IF YOU HAVE QUERY ON HOW DO WE ENSURE THAT VEDAS ARE UNALTERABLE SINCE AGES. We are thankful to several scholars whose source we could not track but whose works were used for creation of this article.)

On how Vedas have been preserved in pristine state, here are some analytical, unbiased and objective pointers. We provide here some details on how Vedas have been preserved so purely and how its not possible to alter even a single syllable. No other text in the world can claim to have such fail-safe method of preservation.

Our forefathers devised a number of methods to preserve the unwritten Vedas in their original form, to safeguard their tonal and verbal purity.

Swara Protection of Vedas

They laid down rules to make sure that not even a syllable was changed in chanting, not even a svara was altered. In this way they ensured that the full benefits were derived from intoning the mantras. They fixed the time taken to enunciate each syllable of a word and called this unit of time or time interval “matra”.

How we must regulate our breathing to produce the desired vibration in a particular part of our body so that the sound of the syllable enunciated is produced in its pure form: this science is explained in the Vedanga called Shiksha.

If you see a Vedic mantra in the Samhita, you would find certain marks after syllables. For example see the following image:

These marks called Swara Chinha depict the method of pronunciation. These markers ensure that not even a single syllable can be altered from any Vedic mantra.

In traditional gurukuls, pupils memorize the locations of these Swaras through specific hand or head movements. Thus you would see them moving their hands or head while reciting the Vedic mantras. And if a slightest error in Swara is found in recitation, they would easily pin-point it.

Further, different gurukuls specialize in studying different Patha methods (explained after this section) would still have the same Swara system in place, thereby easily tracking accuracy of each Vedic mantra to last syllable.

 

Paatha Protection of Vedas

A remarkable method was devised to make sure that words and syllables are not altered. According to this the words of a mantra are strung together in different patterns like “vakya”, “pada”, “karma”, “jata”, “mala”, “sikha”, “rekha”, “dhvaja”, “danda”, “ratha”, “ghana”. These represent different permutations of reciting words of a Vedic Mantra.

We call some Vedic scholars “ghanapathins”, don’t we? It means they have learnt the chanting of the scripture up to the advanced stage called “ghana”. “Pathin” means one who has learnt the “patha”. When we listen to ghanapathins chant the ghana, we notice that they intone a few words of a mantra in different ways, back and forth.

It is most delightful to the ear, like nectar poured into it. The sonority natural to Vedic chanting is enhanced in ghana. Similarly, in the other methods of chanting like karma, jata, sikha, mala, and so on the intonation is nothing less than stately, indeed divine.

The chief purpose of such methods, as already mentioned, is to ensure that not even a syllable of a mantra is altered to the slightest extent. The words are braided together, so to speak, and recited back and forth.

In “vakyapatha” and “samhitapatha” the mantras are chanted in the original (natural) order, with no special pattern adopted. In the vakyapatha some words of the mantras are joined together in what is called “sandhi”. There is sandhi in Tamil also; but in English the words are not joined together. You have many examples of sandhi in the Tevaram, Tiruvachakam, Tirukkural, Divyaprabandham and other Tamil works. Because of the sandhi the individual words are less recognisable in Sanskrit than even in Tamil.

In padapatha each word in a mantra is clearly separated from the next. It comes next to samhitapatha and after it is kramapatha. In this the first word of a mantra is joined to the second, the second to the third, the third to the fourth, and so on, until we come to the final word.

In old inscriptions in the South we find the names of some important people of the place concerned mentioned with the appellation “kramavittan” added to the names. “Kramavittan” is the Tamil form of “kramavid” in the same way as “Vedavittan” is of “Vedavid”. We learn from the inscriptions that such Vedic scholars were to be met throughout South India in past.

(Note that South India has a great contribution in preserving the Vedic traditions during a critical long era of history when North India was occupied in struggling for survival from brutal attacks of barbaric invaders and their progenies from West Asia. We find the tradition of Vedic gurukuls uninterrupted even till today.)

In jata patha, the first word of the mantra is chanted with the second, then the order is reversed-the second is chanted with the first. Then, again, the first word is chanted with the second, then the second with the third, and so on. In this way the entire mantra is chanted, going back and forth.

In shikhapatha the pattern consists of three words of a mantra, instead of the two of jata.

Ghanapatha is more difficult than these. There are four types in this method. Here also the words of a mantra are chanted back and forth and there is a system of permutation and combination in the chanting. To explain all of it would be like conducting a class of arithmetic.

We take all kinds of precautions in the laboratory, don’t we, to protect a life-saving drug? The sound of the Vedas guards the world against all ills. Our forefathers devised these methods of chanting to protect the sound of our scripture against change and distortion.

No-textual-corruption-in-Vedas--

Samhitapatha and padapatha are called “prakrtipatha” (natural way of chanting) since the words are recited only once and in their natural order. The other methods belong to the “vikrtipatha” (artificial way of chanting) category. (In krama, though the words do not go in the strict natural order of one-two-three, there is no reversal of the words-the first after the second, the second after the third, and so on. So we cannot describe it fully as vikrtipatha). Leaving out krama, there are eight vikrti patterns and they are recounted in verse to be easily remembered.

Jata mala sikha rekha dhvaja dando ratho ghanah

Ityastau-vikrtayah proktah kramapurva maharsibhih

All these different methods of chanting are meant to ensure the tonal and verbal purity of the Vedas for all time. In pada the words in their natural order, in krama two words together, in jata the words going back and forth. The words tally in all these methods of chanting and there is the assurance that the original form will not be altered.

The benefits to be derived from the different ways of chanting are given in this verse.

Samhitapathamatrena yatphalam procyate budhaih

Padu tu dvigunam vidyat krame tu ca caturgunam

Varnakrame satagunam jatayantu sahasrakam

Considering that our ancestors took so much care to make sure that the sound of the Vedas did not undergo the slightest change, it is futile for modern researchers to try to establish the date of our scriptures by finding out how the sounds of its words have changed.

What more, today different schools of Vedas exist in south who memorize vedas in different means, as explained above. And if you compare the mantras memorized by different schools, you will find variation of not a single syllable. Remember we are talking lacs of syllables!! And still no variations. Thats why even Max Muller, a bitter critic of Vedic philosophy, could also not help but state that such a foolproof method of preservation is among the greatest wonders and miracles of the world!

An example of Ghana Patha

(Reference Source: http://www.krishnamurthys.com/profvk/index.html )

This example gives a faint glimpse of how the vedas in spite of its massive content, (Rg veda and Yajur veda have 153,826 words and 109,287 words respectively) have been preserved from generation to generation though it was all done only by oral transmission.

We give below a sentence from the Yajur veda, obviously without the svaras, in its original samhita pATha form, also its pada text and then the order of the words in the ghana recital. A pundit who has learnt the Ghana recital of one complete veda (he takes thirteen years of whole time work to reach that stage) is called a ghana-pAThi.

First we give the rule for the ghana mechanics of recitation:

If the original order of words in a sentence is:

1/2/3/4/5

The ghana recital goes as follows:

12/21/123/321/123/

23/32/234/432/234/

34/43/345/543/345/

45/54/45/

5 iti 5.

Example:

samhita sentence:

eshAm purushANAm-eshAm paSUnAM mA bher-mA ro-mo eshAM kincanAmamat //

Meaning:

Oh God! Do not frighten these our men and animals, may none of these perish or lack health.

pada text:

eshAM/purushANAM/eshAM/paSUnAM/mA/bheH/mA/arah/mo-iti-mo/eshAM/

kim/chana/Amamat/Amamad-ity-Amamat/

Note: The ninth break here and the last break are the results of a technicality which you may ignore, unless you want to specialise in this art.

Now for the ghana recital(without the svaras; with the svaras it would be a delight to hear). The recital is a non-stop recital, except for a half-pause at the place shown by / . There is no break anywhere else. The hyphens shown are for requirements of those who can decipher the grammar ; they will not be reflected in the recital.

eshAM-purushANAM-purushANAm-eshAm-eshAM purushANAm-eshAm-eshAm

purushANAm-eshAm-eshAm purushANAm-eshAM /

purushANAm-eshAm-eshAM purushANAM purushANAm-eshAM paSUnAM

paSunAm-eshAm purushANAm purushANAm-eshAM paSUnAM /

eshAM paSUnAM paSUnAm-eshAm-eshAM paSUnAm-mA mA paSUnAm-eshAm-eshAM paSUnAm-mA /

paSUnAm-mA mA paSUnAM paSUnAm-mA bher-bher-mA paSUnAM paSUnAm-mA bheH /

mA bher-bher-mAmA bher-mAmA bher-mAmA bher-mA /

bher-mAmA bher-bher-mAro aro mA bher-bhermA araH /

mA ro aro mAmA ro momo aro mA mA ro mo /

aro mo mo aro aro mo eshAm-eshAm mo aro aro mo eshAM /

mo eshAm-eshAm mo mo eshAm kim kim-eshAm-mo mo eshAm kim / mo iti mo/

eshAm kimkim-eshAmeshAM kim-cana cana kim-esham-eshaM kim-cana /

kim cana cana kim kim canAmamad-Amamat cana kim kim canAmamat /

canAmamad-Amamac-cana canAmamat /

Amamad-ityAmamat /

The significant point to note here is that in Sanskrit the order of words does not matter.

If you do it with an English sentence like:

Rama vanquished Ravana

It will go like this:

Rama vanquished vanquished Rama Rama vanquished Ravana ‘Ravana vanquished Rama’ Rama vanquished Ravana … and so on.

You can see the absurdity now. In Sanskrit this absurdity would not arise. So a ghana recitation is supposed to be equivalent to a recitation of the veda 13 times and to that extent is multifold fruitful! The 13 is because except for two beginning and two ending words in a sentence the others are repeated 13 times. (You can check it with the word paSUnAM above).

To summarize:

All the Veda Mantras have been preserved (till today) (at least three millenia according to western calculations) without ever putting them into writing. This must be considered a great lingusitic achievement of which India can be legitimately proud. The literature, which consists of diverse poetical and prose compositions were simply learnt by rote, the training being given by the teacher saying each word or combinations of words once with the proper incantations (called svaras) and the students saying it twice. They then learnt to recite it in continuous form along with the incantations. The continuous recitation of a vedic text is called samhita pAtha. The accuracy of the text is preserved by resorting to an artifice of nine different techniques or modes of recital.

The first is the pada pATha, which simply recites each word of the text separately; pada means word; pAtha means reading.The euphonic changes that occurs from the samhita pATha to the pada pATha is itself very technical (Sanskrit grammar would be crucial here) but makes sense.

In addition, there are eight other techniques of recitation, the sole purpose of each is to preserve the original samhita text without the loss or addtion of a single syllable or svara. The svaras are a significant part of the recital of the vedas, whatever be the mode. The eight modes are called:

krama, jaTa, ghana, mAlA, ratha, ShikhA, daNDa and rekhA.

In each mode the order of recital of the words is specified as a particular permutation of their original sequence.

All these elaborate and sophisticated approaches have ensured that the first texts of humanity – The Veda Samhitas – are available to us today in exactly the same pure original form.

Finally, enjoy the Ghana Patha recitation of the celebrated Gayatri Mantra:

 

This article is also available in Hindi at http://agniveer.com/3887/why-vedas-cannot-be-changed-hi/

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Comments

      • Vik says

        @tariqaziz

        Namaste brother,

        first off, that site is run my a fanatic muslim whose only intention is to destroy the Vedic truth by misinterpreting the Vedas. Moreover, that article you are talking about is utter nonsense because either it uses false translations or the verses are twisted to suit his agenda. The stupidity of the article can be seen in itself if you see the verses.

      • Subhash Garg says

        The article you quote does not say anything about ghana-paath. The authors seem to be unaware of this brilliant method of protecting the purity of the text. Their claims are all based on pada texts, which may indeed have been corrupted.

    • Vimal Rathinasamy says

      @patrioticmonk….Never comment blindly. I really wonder what is the need for including Muslims here?..People like you are the real enemies of Vedanta and Sanatan Dharma, although for namesake you may say you are a “Hindu”.

      If you are a real Hindu, then try to be a Brahman, rather than pouring satanic words like what you have did now.

      Learn Swami Vivekananda’s teachings and at least you will gain some Knowledge. Vedantism never encourages abusing other religions since each religion in this world, knowingly or unknowingly gets their birth from Vedas.

      -Vimal Rathinasamy.

  1. सुधीर त्यागी says

    धन्यवाद अग्निवीर जी
    बहुत अच्छा लेख है

  2. II Om Parmatmane Namah II says

    @ Agniveer,

    Thats Magnificent… absolutely majestic.. tremendous insight great work… keep rocking

    Dhanyavaad

  3. Om Jai Jagdish says

    Agniveer sir, a request please publish correct english translation of vedas. so that all can read it easily.

  4. Sandeep says

    WOW!! This shows the power of Brahmacharya. I would like to know :

    Whether entire Vedas, from Rig to Atharva, was remembered in this way?
    Whether an institution / gurukul was responsible for one Vedas or all institutions studied four Vedas?
    What is the total no.of shlokas in all 4 Vedas?

    • says

      Normally each Gurukul specializes in one particular Paath and One Particular Vedas. Few scholars spend more efforts to master more. This helps ensure cross-verification of Vedas across different gurukuls.

      The words Dwivedi, Trivedi, Chaturvedi for example demonstrate mastery of number of Vedas.

      Admin

  5. Sandeep says

    Easy path are for animal not for human. That is the purpose of evolution. So, be a Hindu. Accept Sanatan Dharma.

  6. Indian Agnostic says

    South iNdian chanting
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tZv9utp-oc&feature=related

    ghanam recital
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OOkmyFUTis&feature=related

    ghanapaatha can be applied to preserve any oral mantras for error correction or mantra preservation
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPm7cd5M674&feature=related

    yagya ghanapaath
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOhPpsjg-Ms

    many don’t know that the vedas are as much a part of hindu marriages even today

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2d4wrvKBCdA&feature=related

  7. Sanjay says

    It is said that Chanyaka use the Vedic knowledge. Chanyaka understood practical meaning of a section of the Vedas from which he used to unite the entire India.

    So apart from chanting is there anyone that are education today is by the Vedas. The Vedas were in the past the basics of education. This problem is serious.

    I was going through the Vedas the translation and found many inconsistency in translation where they have put god and left out the devi/devta. The meaning becomes more practical in its original then it does by using ambiguous god. In fact much of the meaning is lost by translating to god.

  8. भगवान सिंह सुगरा says

    अग्निवीर; तुम इस युग के युधवीर हो, हम तुम्हारे ऋणी हैं और हमेशा रहेंगे. कृपया ऐसे हमारा मार्गदर्शन करते रहिये.
    बहुत बहुत धन्यवाद..!!!

  9. Vivek Bhaarteeya says

    Is there any book that explains all the paatha vidhis of vedas in detail? If yes please let me know how I can get that.
    with regards
    Vivek Bhaarteeya

  10. Theist Agnostic says

    Nice artical indeed. Personally, I think this is the better use of your energy than writting about how Islam is A piece of shit. One question- some of us ( e.g. Gita press gorakhpur) claim that a big portion of Veda was lost. For this reason, as I was told at their book store, they do not publish Veda books. Again, the claim is that the Vedas as available today are incomplete. I also vaguely remember some other claim that a few branches of Yajurved were list. Does that mean the verses were lost or doear it mean only the chanting tradition was lost? Thanks.

    • Vajra says

      Theist Agnostic
      Neither the chant tradition nor the Mantras were lost. It was in fact brain of some greedy people which was lost that they restricted Vedas to only few people of the society. Eeshvar will never forgive those devils.

      With this unique technology of preserving Mantras, no question can be raised on originality of Vedas.

      BTW, how are you using your energy? Denouncing falsehood is as important as spreading the truth. So I hope that from now on you will put your energy in doing either one of these things or both in future instead of examining one’s capabilities or calling other’s religion as shit.

      Please take it positively, dont get hurt. We want every person to come forward and work for truth. There are many people who can suggest but very few who can actually do. So try to be in the latter pool, there is hardly any competition there!

      Your Brother

      • Theist Agnostic says

        No one will ever be able to convince you that Darwin was right about evlutionary process (hint: your discussion below with sarang). Similary, no matter what we say about Islam, Muslims will not belive it. My approach is to help them ask questions. Read the Quaran and anyone will find out how easy it can be to call its bluff – provided they ask questions.

        To invest my energy right, I am studying Quran. Knowing it first hand will allow me to strategize how to help Muslims do that one thing to important for knowing truth – “Ask Questions”. Stay tuned.

    • says

      1. No mantra of Vedas has been lost.
      2. The branches refer to certain derivatives from original Mantra compilations to simplify as per prevailing styles of language or focus of society. They were created to spread the knowledge of Vedas far and wide.
      But the original Mantra compilations remain intact and unchanged.

      3. Yes a lot of branches have been lost but not the Mantra Samhitas.

      4. Geetapress etc do not publish vedas because they are pressurized by those casteist elements that believe that women and certain castes cannot recite vedas and that Vedas should not be spread freely. Thus they focus only on Ramayan, Mahabharat, Purans and other later texts.

      5. Unfortunately this tendency of Hindus to ignore Vedas and try to find truth from later day human-created texts has been greatest cause for their downfall. No Ramayan, Mahabharat, Upanishads, etc, howsomuch great, can match the Vedas in terms of truthfulness, perfection and mentorship. After all a human cannot equal Ishwar.

      THE ONLY WAY FOR THE SOCIETY TO RISE AGAIN IS TO EMBRACE VEDAS. THIS IS TRUE NOT ONLY FOR HINDUS BUT ENTIRE HUMANITY. However the penalty for ignoring Vedas would always be highest for Hindus because they, as a society, are so close to them but yet ignore them for foolish reasons.

        • Vajra says

          IIG
          That was never lost. Because if they are no longer available, how do you know that it was 99 percent and not 98 or 97 or ….??? But I will not let you go empty handed on lost issue, I will inform you about a lost book definitely. You may like to know more about it on http://agniveer.com/3118/miracle-islam/.

      • Aditya says

        Agniveer Ji,
        I would’t agree with your view because recently a portion of Yajur veda was re-discovered in Orissa.
        Can you explain why do you say that the vedas are not lost?

          • Aditya says

            No, Agniveer Ji.
            A part of the yajur vedas was recovered from Orissa in 2008. It was in palm leaves. Many vedic scholars and Sanskrit scholars are working on it. This has not yet gone public as they are converting it into digital form and they are interpreting its meaning.
            I came to know about this from my friend, who is the disciple of Seshadrinath Sasthrigal .You can ask any person in this field.
            I will get back with more info on this.

            Moreover In Patañjali’s Mahabashyam on Panini’s Aṣṭādhyāyī , he has commented that there are 21 branches of Ṛg veda, 101 of Yajus, 9 of Atharva Veda 1000s of branches of the Sāma. I have still not had enough access to this mahabashyam.
            Regards
            Aditya

        • Jay Arya says

          if they found in 2008 why doesn’t anybody know about it? finding a yajur veda does not mean vedas are lost it is probably just another copy and branches does not mean vedas are lost they are not vedas

          • Aditya says

            Respected Jay Aryaji,
            We don’t know about it. Only vedic and sanskrit scholars who are working on it know about. The reason I came to know about it is because My friend’s Guru’s Colleague is on the team which is working on interpreting the vedas. There is a team which is interpreting the meaning of the vedas. There are less than 100 people in the world who have the ability to interpret the vedas. Seshadrinath Sasthrigal is training around 100 students to interpret the vedas. Currently around 20 have completed it.
            It is impossible for everyone to know this because this is only inside the Vedic scholar circle. Agniveer Ji should approach his Guru to know more about this. even I din’t believe this because this has not gone public.

            And if it was another copy, I wouldn’t have made any comments here at all.
            Moreover if one notices the basic approach of the vedic Scholars , we will find out that continuous effort is needed to get the desired answer. I mean the vedic scholars don’t prefer to go around and tell the truth of the vedas. The don’t want anyone to misuse the vedic mantras.
            As a matter of Fact, the Mantras of Atharva Veda can be used to defeat the enemy, so many vedic scholars don’t teach this because they don’t want anyone to misuse.

  11. srinivasan subramanian says

    Am i prepared for this abundance, i remember a dialogue from a movie batman, wherein the villain joker will say that he is like a dog which chases cars, but don’t know ,what to do, when catches one.
    I sincerely question myself, whether can i manage/ handle this truth.
    i wish the Almighty gives me an opportunity to redeem this existence called i.

  12. t v rao says

    this article is very informative and educative. the audio/video presentations are very good and feel to have them ringing in the home 24 hours. how can we have these files downloaded to pc for offline playing? i will be greatful if they can be sent through email.

  13. says

    Hare Krsna! All glories to Guru and SriHari.

    This is SriGuru, please accept my dandavats.

    Nice forum and a good opportunity to express. Thanks to the guys who made this site possible.

    Vedic culture begins with properly addressing oneself and always dedicating actions to the Supreme Purusha. This is Karma-Yoga, not worrying about the result and who else is better known for this than M.K. Gandhi. In modern times, those who have that last name are NOT VEDIC. They are mlecchas or ANTI-VEDIC.

    Vedic Culture is NOT HINDUISM. The word HINDU come into existence in the 14th century or so due to the invading Persian RASCALS. The word “Hindu” does not exist in the Vedas; nor does the word “India”. The word Bharata is used to indicate the whole planet before 3012 B.C when there was only VEDIC TECHNOLOGY AND VEDIC EMPIRE THAT RULED THIS SMALL PLANET BHU-LOKA.

    The caste system as in modern India IS FALSE. Nowhere in the Vedas or its summary called the Srimad Bhagavad Gita, spoken directly by the Supreme Purusha SriKrsna.

    The RASCALS OF THE SO-CALLED BRITISH EMPIRE taught people in modern India that our Vedic culture is inferior, BUT IT IS ACTUALLY INFINITELY SUPERIOR.

    Most modern Indians are lazy and hence ignorant of the VEDAS. Do the due diligence, homework and find out the TRUTH. If I can do it, so can you.

    SriGuru
    Hari Aum Tat Sat
    For SriHari or Bhagavan SriKrsna is THE ABSLOUTE TRUTH and that is the meaning of Satyameva Jayate (Satya = Absolute Truth, beyond time)

  14. says

    ISLAMIC TREASURE :

    If Arya Samaj represents the Truth; then why are you not following them? Why do you use them as a reference to bash somebody else to promote yours? Be truthful, respect all spiritual systems. That way, you will feel elevated within your system. The Vedas are eternal, The Absolute Truth and a portion of the Vedas, called the “Bhavisya Purana” explains the coming of modern religions, namely Judaism, Christianity and Islam, respectfully.

    This age (3012 B.c to 427,000 A.D) is a degraded age. Lies are the lifeline of life. Where do you think modern India’s motto “Satyameva Jayate” come from – it simple means – “The Absolute Truth triumphs” and that is FROM the eternal VEDAS — The Vedas are the “emanatation” of the Supreme Purusha, SriHari !!!!

    So please do your due diligence BEFORE YOU DOODLE.

    • Vik says

      @SriGuru

      which ignorant selfish person on earth, told you that Bhavishya Puran is a part of Vedas??????? None of the Purans are parts of Vedas, they are simply separate pieces of work that are fabricated and should be trashed on parts in which they oppose Vedic teachings.

      And of course, Bhavisya Purana is the most fake of all the Puranas. It was written till the nineteenth century, it even contains the names of Queen Elizabeth.

      Vedas never prophecize anything or anybody, so all your claims of upcoming religions and prophets go straight out the window. Vedas are the first and last divine revelations, everything that came after that was man made.

      • Indian says

        Because Bhavishya purana tells about Queen Elizabeth in the 19th century, that doesn’t make it fake. The name of the purana itself means that it predicts future. If Nostradamus predicts Hitler that doesn’t mean Nostradamus wrote his predictions during the time of Hitler and Nostradamus predictions are fabricated. Same with Bible and Hadith predictions. Western historians have no problem with these predictions. But, if Indian scriptures predict some queen name accurately, they jump into a conclusion that those scriptures are written during that queen time and are fabricated. And Indians who listen to their white masters shamelessly accept everything as true.

        Scholars from Abrahamic religions call it fake because Bhavishya purana tells Adam and Eve story as a recent story and it also tells that Indians didn’t came from Adam and Eve (and also not from Noah). This is a big blow to their ego, who treat Hinduism as a collection of mythologies. If this purana is true, they cannot preach christianity in India because Indians do not have original sin from Adam and Eve (as they didn’t descend from Adam and Eve). And also muslims cannot call their religion as the only true religion because of the description of their prophet as a demon. If Bhavishya purana is true, all people following Abrahamic religions will become Hindus. Thats why, western scholars will try their best to prove this purana as fake.

  15. says

    VIK

    you IGNORANT, PATHETIC, SELF-INDUCED, VILE MORON – READ the VEDAS first before you comment – You will be boiled in your own oil – DON’T DOODLE LIKE A MLECCHA.

    HANG UP AND DON’T COMMENT – YOU WILL EXIST IN YOUR OCEAN OF NON-BHAKTI YOU AND YOUR PATHETIC SLUR ON VEDAS – SHUT UR PIE-HOLE

    • Vik says

      @SriGuru

      your language and manners show the reality of your sick character, why should I rely on Vedic knowledge from some mannerless idiot like you???

      • says

        Hare Vasudeva! All glories to Guru and Bhagavan Sri Hari

        Amitesh,

        Thanks for responding correctly. Vik’s arrogance and ego came to the fore. He has no clear Vedic knowledge.

        I have no association with ISKCON or Hare Krsnas. They however, present the *largest and most comprehensive spiritual database* on the planet, when compared to The Holy Bible, The Holy Scripture for the Moslems. Other Vedic Sampradayas from modern India have not done this level of effort. Please check this,
        http://vedabase.net

        Vedas are not a religion.

        The Summary of The Vedas – is the Srimad Bhagavad Gita, its conclusive corrollaries is the Brahma-Sutra, also called Vedanta Sutra by some Sampradayas.

        The intended Encylocpedic Summary of The Vedas – is the Flawless and greatest explanations of the Vedas and its objectives in varied spiritual levels and mellows with devotion, the devoted devotee and Bhagavan’s greatness is Sri Bhagavata Purana, as confirmed by Sri Narada Muni, Sri Krishna Dwaipanya Veda Vaysa and his son, Sri Suka Muni.

        Of course, all Sampradayas explain it differently, since there are 5 major Sampradayas, depending on time, location and circumstances.

        They are a system, that is Eternal, from Bhagavan SriHari and it gives choices of levels of Bhakti but its real goal is to praise Bhagavan Sri Hari (source: Vaisnava Puranas, also known as Sattvic Puranas and written down by Bhagavan Sri Krishna Dwaipanya Veda Vyasa for the less spiritual people born in Kali-Yuga (3012 BC to 330,000 AD approximate)

        I speak after having understood Vedic Ontology (readers, take some time to know this word, learn its meaning and explanation).

        The Eternal Vedas have an Ontology, so does The Holy Bible and other systems on earth today. But the Vedic Ontology is far, like an endless Ocean, because it provides great choice to realize The Supreme (understanding, mood, level of devotion, methods etc)

        So, the Vedas give choices in Bhakti, hoping heor she will spiritually progress with detailed methods, details of the Sampradaya or Vedic lineage.

        So anyone worshipping Bhagavan Sri Sada Shiva Deva or Mahadeva will go upto that level of consciousness, someone worshipping Bhagavan SriGuru Dattatreya will go higher in consciousness and someone doing Bhagavan Sri Hari in pure Bhakti will be even higher.

        Some one that is necessarily great in Sanskrit is not a devotee of SriHari, but he or she can be worshipping a Devata** is to be respected. One who sees Bhagavan SriHari in all, is a devotee.

        But at the same time, an aspiring devotee will not take crap from people like Vik, who has clearly not done his homework and it shows.

        *(devata is a devotee of Bhagavan SriHari, this is indicated in the major Puranas and commentaries on the Vedic texts by great Gurus)

        Thanks, wishes
        SriGuru
        Hari Om Tat Sat

  16. SriGuru says

    @Vik THE SCUM BAG OF THE PLANET, the LONELY FOOL

    Well don’t listen to anyone, YOU RASCAL. Listen to ur innermost urges and well hang urself. YOU DO NOT DESERVE ANY VEDIC KNOWLEDGE – SO GO DOODLE AND RATTLE MORE OF YOUR NON-SENSE. YOU HAVE NOT READ THE VEDAS.

    THE PURANAS ARE THE PANCAMA VEDA – U ARE SUCH A FRAGMENT OF NONSENSE BEFORE GREAT ACARYAS OF THE VEDAS.

    EVEN RASCALS DESERVE SOME RESPECT NOT U IGNORANT FOOL

    • Amitesh says

      Brother SriGuru,

      Kindly refrain from showing you deep inhibited Samskaars on a vedic forum like this. You should understand the difference between speaking at your home and that at a public forum like this .

      Dhanyawaad

      Hope you will co-operate

    • roger says

      @SriGuru
      Well, readers can decide by the language that who do not have samskaars and who is real SCUM BAG OF THE GALAXY.

    • Vik says

      @Everybody

      I would request all my brothers and sisters on this forum to kindly ignore this idiot, when you teach a fool four words of english, this is how they react.

    • ISCKON is an Islamic Cult says

      Dear Sri Guru

      We know all about your fake organization called ISCKON and its pedophilia followers. The sort of nonsense that you espouse and what all are you preach. You can take all your Puranas and throw them into the nearest dustbin.
      While you are at it, add your second favorite book the Al Koran of Muhammad along with it. You people are nothing but a sick cult who are just as sick and perverted as the Catholic priests with whom you hob nob all the time. Get lost from this website before we expose your evil ways too.

      • says

        @ ISCKON is an Islamic Cult says: Dear Islamic is a cult and so as Christianity.. Lots of hatred, negativity about women, slavery, sexual relation with mother, sister, daughter, daughter in laws… All sort of activities are allowed in Koran and Bible which are condemned by Vedas and condemned by present civilised society.

        I am not ISKON follower, but you should be thankfull to them, because they say Christ and Krishna are one. I don’t believe them, Krishna is Great, and Christ is a lie. Actually Christ was never born. All are stories of Krishna.

  17. Mahmoud says

    Responding to http://agniveer.com/3149/id-mubarak/

    “””This clearly shows that Allah does not ask for animal-killing. Wherever animal-sacrifice is mentioned, it simply means using animals for good purpose and caring for them.””””””

    Scarifying goats is mentioned in Quran

    And why should you not eat of that upon which the name of Allah has been mentioned while He has explained in detail to you what He has forbidden you, excepting that to which you are compelled. And indeed do many lead [others] astray through their [own] inclinations without knowledge. Indeed, your Lord – He is most knowing of the transgressors. [ Quran , 6 : 119 ]

    And do not eat of that upon which the name of Allah has not been mentioned, for indeed, it is grave disobedience. And indeed do the devils inspire their allies [among men] to dispute with you. And if you were to obey them, indeed, you would be associators [of others with Him]. [ Quran , 6 : 121 ]

    And they say, “These animals and crops are forbidden; no one may eat from them except whom we will,” by their claim. And there are those [Camels] whose backs are forbidden [by them] and those upon which the name of Allah is not mentioned – [all of this] an invention of untruth about Him. He will punish them for what they were inventing. [ Quran , 6 : 138 ]

    No all animals , there are type of animals called catteles and healthy animals which used in feeding

    He has only forbidden to you dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah . But whoever is forced [by necessity], neither desiring [it] nor transgressing [its limit], there is no sin upon him. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. [ Quran , 2:173 ]

    And complete the Hajj and ‘umrah for Allah . But if you are prevented, then [offer] what can be obtained with ease of sacrificial animals. And do not shave your heads until the sacrificial animal has reached its place of slaughter. And whoever among you is ill or has an ailment of the head [making shaving necessary must offer] a ransom of fasting [three days] or charity or sacrifice. And when you are secure, then whoever performs ‘umrah [during the Hajj months] followed by Hajj [offers] what can be obtained with ease of sacrificial animals. And whoever cannot find [or afford such an animal] – then a fast of three days during Hajj and of seven when you have returned [home]. Those are ten complete [days]. This is for those whose family is not in the area of al-Masjid al-H’aram. And fear Allah and know that Allah is severe in penalty. [ Quran , 2 :196 ]

    O you who have believed, fulfill [all] contracts. Lawful for you are the animals of grazing livestock except for that which is recited to you [in this Qur'an] – hunting not being permitted while you are in the state of ihram. Indeed, Allah ordains what He intends. [ Quran , 5:1 ]

    They ask you, [O Muhammad], what has been made lawful for them. Say, “Lawful for you are [all] good foods and [game caught by] what you have trained of hunting animals which you train as Allah has taught you. So eat of what they catch for you, and mention the name of Allah upon it, and fear Allah .” Indeed, Allah is swift in account. [ Quran , 5:4 ]

    This is respond to this http://agniveer.com/3149/id-mubarak/ hope it helps :D

    • Vajra says

      Mahmoud
      Probably you missed the crux of the article. The article clearly mentions that the original message of true Quran is no more available to us and whatever we see today in the name of Quran is a fake one. So all verses you listed are from fake Quran. The actual one would have given the message of love and compassion for fellow beings, since that is not the case with the current Quran, it cant be considered as true one.

      Please visit http://agniveer.com/3118/miracle-islam to know how was Quran collected and then preserved

      • Mahmoud says

        “””””””The article clearly mentions that the original message of true Quran is no more available to us and whatever we see today in the name of Quran is a fake one”””””””””””

        Hey bro , i answered this many times . The Quran is collected by zaid bin thabit and many companions and [ leaded by zaid ] after monthes from the prophet’s death in pages , then after years it collected in one book also by zaid bin thabet in the time of caliph othman , so no way from what you say . How many times i need to say it ?. There is a big Probability that the vedas never existed from 3000 years because no archeological proof for it

        —————————-

        And scarifying goats is type of zakat [ charity ] for poors , the goats are scarifyed and distribute its meat on the poors

        • Vajra says

          Mahmoud
          Please visit http://agniveer.com/3118/miracle-islam and debate there regarding preservation of Quran. Can you tell me where are the original copies of “divine” revelations Torah, Jabur etc kept? Do you have the archeological proofs for those? Will you conclude that those never existed?

          Can you give me proofs of Adam, Eve, flying donkey of Muhammad, proofs of stones who used to talk to Moses and even weep after getting beaten by Moses, proofs of Jesus born without father, proofs of Jannat, houris with big bosoms and transparent body, pearl eyed boys, Satan, hell etc? I think one does not need any proof but just common sense to discard these idiotic stories. What say?

    • Vajra says

      Namaste Brother Sarang
      Cloning does not reflect creation of new soul. Actually souls exist always and are sent to the places/Yonis where they could get best environment subjected to their past Karma in their journey to Moksha. Eeshvar manages this complex mechanism. When at any place, the surroundings are started building in a way such that a life can sustain there, any appropriate soul which deserves to be there as per its Karma is sent there by Eeshvar. This place can be mother’s womb or a test tube or anything. Semen and ovum are required to provide material cause for the body of the soul coming into it. Then appropriate environment is needed to grow the body and sustain life. Thus anytime, if material cause (no matter if manufactured in laboratories instead of mother and father’s body some day!) and appropriate conditions (of appropriate temperature, pressure, moisture, gases and much more) are produced, be it in mother’s womb or a test tube or a room, life will sustain i.e. a soul can come to the body.

      In short, cloning is purely physical but soul is not. Soul, being non physical, is completely independent of physical world for its existence. Here by physical, I mean anything made up of matter/energy, which can undergo adjoining or disjointing.

      Dhanyawad

    • Vajra says

      Namaste Brother sarang
      No need to blindly believe in any number. BTW, what are your beliefs? Do you believe in God, souls, Vedas etc? Please clarify your stand before going into further discussion. Let us know about your philosophy too so that comparative discussion can take place which is essential for truth seekers like you and me.

      Dhanyawad

  18. sarang says

    namaste brother vajra. I am vedic. Regular reader of agniveer.spreading ur message..when i talked this to some atheists, they wont believe me. When i takd about srirama, they say 18 lakh years ago, human was not even evolved.also that 2 billion yrs ago even life was primitive. they show some biology texts..and they all laugh at me.

    • says

      darwin theory is wrong….There is no need to be any specialist …..our hand cannot become feathers..only special physical features can be passed …total change cannot happen….Change of hands to feathers didnot happen suddenly …They say slowly…..So suppose our hand becomes half feather and half hand, can you imagine that such foolish thing…..Even a small distortion makes our sense fail or we feel uncomfortable..How can adult survive if its hands or leg become half feather..They will not function properly…We cannot survive on that such changes….
      .
      Even Shri Krishna says that all were created by following verses for creation and time length
      .
      .
      महर्षयः सप्त पूर्वे चत्वारो मनवस्तथा।
      मद्भावा मानसा जाता येषां लोक इमाः प्रजाः॥१०-६॥
      The seven great seers, their four elders (Sanaka
      and others), and the fourteen Manus or progenitors
      of mankind (such as Svayambhuva and his
      successors), who are all devoted to Me, were
      born of My will; to whom all these creatures
      belong. (BG – 10.6)
      .
      .
      श्रीभगवानुवाच
      इमं विवस्वते योगं प्रोक्तवानहमव्ययम् ।
      विवस्वान्मनवे प्राह मनुरिक्ष्वाकवेऽब्रवीत् ॥४-१॥
      Bhagavan said: I revealed this immortal
      Yoga to Vivasvan (Sun-god); Vivasvan conveyed
      it to Manu(his son); and Manu imparted it to
      (his son) Iksvaku..(BG – 4.1)

      एवं परम्पराप्राप्तमिमं राजर्षयो विदुः ।
      स कालेनेह महता योगो नष्टः परन्तप ॥४-२॥
      Thus transmitted in succession from father to
      son, Arjuna, this Yoga remained known to the
      Rajarishis(royal sages). Through long lapse of
      time, this Yoga got lost to the world.(BG – 4.2)

      स एवायं मया तेऽद्य योगः प्रोक्तः पुरातनः ।
      भक्तोऽसि मे सखा चेति रहस्यं ह्येतदुत्तमम् ॥४-३॥
      The same ancient Yoga, which is the supreme
      secret, has this day been imparted to you by Me,
      because you are My devotee and friend.(BG – 4.3)

      अर्जुन उवाच
      अपरं भवतो जन्म परं जन्म विवस्वतः ।
      कथमेतद्विजानीयां त्वमादौ प्रोक्तवानिति ॥४-४॥
      Arjuna said: You are of recent origin, while the birth of Vivasvan dates back to remote antiquity.How, then, am I to believe that You imparted this
      Yoga at the beginning of the creation!(BG – 4.4)

      श्रीभगवानुवाच
      बहूनि मे व्यतीतानि जन्मानि तव चार्जुन ।
      तान्यहं वेद सर्वाणि न त्वं वेत्थ परन्तप ॥४-५॥
      Bhagavan said : Arjuna, you and I have
      passed through many births, I remember them all;
      you do not remember, O chastiser of foes.(BG – 4.5)
      .
      सहस्रयुगपर्यन्तमहर्यद् ब्रह्मणो विदुः।
      रात्रिं युगसहस्रान्तां तेऽहोरात्रविदो जनाः॥८-१७॥
      Those Yogis who know from realization Brahma’s
      day as covering a thousand Mahayugas, and so his
      night as extending to another thousand Mahayugas
      know the reality about Time. (BG – 8.17)

    • Vajra says

      Brother sarang
      You cant debate with an atheist on the facts of Ramayan or Mahabharat. You must be logical to counter his arguments. First understand yourself why God is necessary? Convince yourself logically and then debate with others. You can direct anyone to this site for any discussion.

      I recommend you to read a book “Aastikwaad” by Pandit Ganga Prasad Upadhyay, if you know Hindi. Also read all the articles of Vedic lessons, they too contain discussion with atheists.

    • Islam=Bull shit says

      Give me proof that Quran is not corrupted lol..Vedas are not corrupted read this site properly to know why vedas have not been corrupted.Just because Quran says it is protected from corruption doesn’t mean that it is free of corruption moron.Your Muslim logic is laughable even for a 3 year old kid,you would have already concluded X=True and Y=False even before analyzing it.

  19. sarang says

    Pre-Islamic Arabic
    poetry clearly talks
    about Vedas. Here is
    poetry by an ancient
    Arabic poetry by Labi-
    Bin-E- Akhtab-Bin-E-
    Turfa with English
    Translation (Poetry in
    red, translation in bold
    black): [Taken from
    "Vedic History of Pre-
    Islamic Mecca" by
    Shrimati Aditi
    Chaturvedi]
    “Aya muwarekal araj
    yushaiya noha minar
    HIND-e Wa aradakallaha
    manyonaifail jikaratun”
    “Oh the divine land
    of HIND (India) (how)
    very blessed art
    thou!
    Because thou art
    the chosen of God
    blessed with
    knowledge”
    “Wahalatijali Yatun
    ainana sahabi akha-
    atun jikra Wahajayhi
    yonajjalur -rasu minal
    HINDATUN ”
    “That celestial
    knowledge which
    like four lighthouses
    shone in such
    brilliance – through
    the (utterances of)
    Indian sages in
    fourfold
    abundance.”
    “Yakuloonallaha ya ahal
    araf alameen kullahum
    Fattabe-u jikaratul
    VEDA bukkun malam
    yonajjaylatun”
    “God enjoins on all
    humans, follow with
    hands down The
    path the
    Vedas with his
    divine precept lay
    down.”
    “Wahowa alamus
    SAMA wal YAJUR
    minallahay Tanajeelan
    Fa-enoma
    ya akhigo mutiabay-an
    Yobassheriyona jatun”
    “Bursting with
    (Divine) knowledge
    are SAM &YAJUR
    bestowed on
    creation, Hence
    brothers respect
    and follow the
    Vedas, guides to
    salvation”
    “Wa-isa nain huma RIG
    ATHAR nasayhin Ka-a-
    Khuwatun Wa asant
    Ala-udan wabowa
    masha -e-ratun”
    “Two others, the Rig
    and Athar teach us
    fraternity,
    Sheltering under
    their lustre dispels
    darkness till
    eternity”
    This poem was written
    by Labi-Bin-E- Akhtab-
    Bin-E-Turfa who lived
    in Arabia around 1850
    B.C. That was 2300
    years before
    Mohammed!!! This
    verse can be found in
    Sair- Ul- Okul which is
    an
    anthology of ancient
    Arabic poetry. It was
    compiled in 1742 AD
    under
    order of the Turkish
    Sultan Salim.

    COURTSEY:SATYAVIDYA

        • Faizan says

          @Vajra

          That website is a response website started only 3 months back. Slowly he will refute all your articles. But why are you helpless to refute his exposing of Vedas?

          can you answer this question which he asks in his article?

          Comparing the Yajurveda of Gayatri Parivar and Arya Samaj, there are many mantras missing in one or another of the versions. For example, the 25th Chapter of Gayatri Parivar Yajurveda has 47 mantras. Even the Yajurveda of Ralph Griffith has 47 mantras. But, the Arya Samaj version has and additional Mantra 48.

          Why does Arya Samaj have the extra mantra? why is it missing from other versions?

          Shaakal Rishi is called as the collector of Rigveda. He had a number of students, who later expressed many differences and compiled their own versions of Rigveda. numbering upto 21. There are major differences between the Shaakal and Baskal samhitas of Rigveda. The Śākala recension has 1,017 regular hymns, while the Bāṣkala samhita has a total of 1025 hymns. Thus, around some 50 mantras are missing in Śākala samhita. There are differences even over the total number of mantras.

          * According to Anuvakanukramani Rigveda has 10,580 mantras
          * According to Gayatri Parivar Rigveda has 10,552 mantras
          * According to Sayanacharya it has 10,000 mantras
          * According to Swami Dayanand Saraswati it has 10,589 mantras

          As per these figures, some 500 mantras are doubtful or interpolated. However, the story does not end here. Pandit Ram Govind Trivedi, mentions another surprising fact in the preface to his Hindi translation of the Rigveda. He says,

          “According to one Mantra of Rigveda (Page 1403, Mantra 8), we come to know that it has 15,000 Mantras. However, when we count the total Mantras, we get 10,469 Mantras. It is possible that like a large portion of the books of Vedic literature and Vedas were destroyed by the anti-religious, similarly, Mantras too suffered destruction for many reasons.”

          The Mantra he is talking about is Rigveda 10:114:8.

          The 1127 versions of Vedas have been lost. There are so many mistakes and interpolations in the Vedas.

          Read his full article.

  20. Apolloreach says

    @ Faizan: Your friend on the website you quoted has trouble understanding that Prajapati,Skhamba & the Great Being are all one and the same (his post – Origin of Vedas). I have also deconstructed his whole premise on his blog on eternity of Vedas. So, his post on Vedas and textual corruption is gonna be pitiful. Just pasting scanned copies of Vedic texts and building weak logic isn’t gonna work. Please look up on that site for my reponses on the two topics above. He is not worth the time. I etsblished a bi-directional premise from Vedas to Brahmanas to Upanishads and all the way back But your friend just doesnot get it.

    But I gotta thank your friend,as, he got me interested in agniveer.com more than before. I didnot even know about Satyarath Prakash. But owing to your friend, I have been reading it.. Please ask your friend to add more rigor to his research.

    • faizan says

      @ Apolloreach
      I saw the comments. he has responded to ur comments and u have not responded to his proof that rishis made up the mantras. u r silent there.

  21. Apolloreach says

    @ Faizan, I told you. I have already punched a gaping hole on the article you pointed. Your friend,based on Nirukt 7:8 made a claim that unlike what is mentioned in Nirukt, there is no verse in the entire Rig Veda that praised Agni & Vishu jointly. Here is what I posted on your friend’s website.

    Mushafiq,

    There you go again.

    You make a grand claim that in the entire Rig Veda, there is not ONE instance where Agni and Vishnu are offered a joint obalation. I donot care what Nirukt says. But here is the verse in Sanskrit and in English….

    Rig Veda 2/1/3: Hymns to Agni

    तवमग्न इन्द्रो वर्षभः सतामसि तवं विष्णुरुरुगायो नमस्यः |
    तवं बरह्मा रयिविद बरह्मणस पते तवं विधर्तःसचसे पुरन्ध्या ||

    Hero of Heroes, Agni! Thou art Indra, thou art Visnu of the Mighty Stride, adorable:
    Thou, Brahmaṇaspati, the Brahman finding wealth: thou, O Sustainer, with thy wisdom tendest us.

    So Mushafiq, your claim stands exposed. Please do your own research instead of depending on Nirukt,Panini etc to trash the Vedas. It is not to worth to read the rest of your post. This sampling alone is good enough to understand the rigor in your research. Good Luck.

    • Faizan says

      Brother Mushafiq has responded to your comment.

      @Apolloreach

      Brother, thanks for commenting. I think you misunderstood this point. May be my choice of words was not that good. That is why I decided to correct this point and explain it in details lest someone else misunderstands like you. What is meant by joint oblation here? Several times two deities are conjointly addressed as a dual deity. For example, in Rigveda 1:17 Indra-Varuna (इन्द्रावरुण) are conjointly addressed; in Rigveda 1:21 Indra-Agni (इन्द्राग्नी) are conjointly addressed; in Rigveda 1:152 Mitra-Varuna (मित्रावरुणा) are conjointly addressed; in Rigveda 1:135 Indra-Vayu (इन्द्रवायू)are jointly addressed. Similarly, as per Nirukt 7:8 there is a conjoint address to Agni and Vishu like this . This is a clear evidence that the Rigveda at the time of Yaska Muni had the joint oblation of Agni and Vishu, but it is not found in today’s Rigveda, demonstrating corruption of the text.

      Hope it is clarified.

      In other words, the Devata of the hymn must be Agni-Vishnu.

      Besides, the reference you have provided, the Devata of that hymn is Agni and not Vishnu.

      I am surprised at your irresponsible statement that you do not care about Nirukt, Panini, etc. When Muslims comment on agniveer, he is so quick to jump to Panini’s dhatupath, ashtadhyayi, etc to give his own new meanings of the mantras. Your entire Vedas will be meaningless without these books on etymology, philology and semantics.

      By the way, you attempted to respond to one point of my article. What about the other points?

      • Apolloreach says

        @ Fauzan: Game over…

        ————————
        Mushafiq,

        Hmmm, it is getting interesting. So, you have come up with a modified premise,based on my response. No problem,Sir.

        Let me first address what Nirukta 7:8 says and MAY BE you misunderstood it. I am quoting Nirukta 7:8 VERBATIM.

        ” There is a joint oblation offered to BUT NO JOINT “PANEGYRIC” ADDRESSED TO Agni and Vishnu in the ten books of Rig Veda. Moreover there is a joint oblation offered to BUT NO JOINT “PANEGYRIC” ADDRESSED TO Agni and Pusan in the ten books of Rig Veda.” PANEGYRIC means eulogy.

        The example that is then quoted in Nirukta 7:9 is this: May Pusan, the wise, the guardian of the universe, whose cattle are never lost,cause thee to move forthwith this world. May he hand over thee to these manes and may Agni entrust thee to the beneveloent Gods.

        And the above verse is similar to what I quoted from Rig Veda 2/1/3,where you find Agni and Vishnu in one verse together but not in conjoint manner.

        So Mushafiq, what this means in simple English is that Nirukta 7:8 is making a FACTUAL statement. Nowehere in the Vedas,are Agni/Vishnu and Agni/Pusan called conjointly, though they may be seen in the same verse.

        The inference is that you did not read Nirukta 7:8 properly or in your rush you misunderstood what it meant,in the first place. I am not sure if you did really look up all the verses in the Rig Veda (a tall order)LOOKING for SOMETHING that, Nirukta 7:8, clearly states DOES NOT EXIST in the Rig Veda.

        Again, your premise has no legs to stand. And let me repeat this for what may the 5th time in our conversations. Please re-read all our conversations pertaining to the Origin of Vedas (post). Prajapati,Skambha and the Great Being are one and the same. It is a poetic way of saying that the Vedas were breathed out or shaved off or carved out from an entity.

        Like I said, if you do not try to understand this premise of the oneness of the above three entities, all your posts on vedic hymns are gonna be out of place.

        And on the Shakas….presence or absence or missing of Shakas mean nothing to the Vedas.Why??The Shaakhas of the Vedas are explantions and / or editions of the original Samhitas (Vedas). They ARE NOT the original Vedas. They may be even mixed up with the Brahmanas.Like the Brahamanas or Upanishads, the shakas are creations of later day sages. Would you worry about the Quran or missing parts of Ibn Kathir’s tafsir?? You know the answer, right?

        And Mushafiq, the initiative you have taken up is different from a high school student writing an exam and despite fairing poorly in an exam, he still gets his mandatory pass percentage. If you are researching and presenting certain things as facts (backed up by evidences), the evidences ought to hold. If the evidence is nullified (like what happened with Nirukta 7:8), your entire post is nullified too. We cannot go down the road of,oh this is wrong but may be this is correct and so on…So why do you even expect to read other passages of your posts when you did not even understand what Nirukta 7:8 meant??

        Time & again, I have been exposing your lack of understanding of the basic premise of the Vedas and the absolute lack of rigor in your research of the Vedas. Good Luck.

        Good Luck.

        • Faizan says

          Brother Mushafiq has responded to your comment. It is game over for you i think.

          In Nirukt 7:9 the verse that quoted is NOT an example of joint oblation, for your kind information. Towards the end of 7:8, Yaska clearly says that

          “With regard to this, the following stanza is cited (in order to show their)separate praise.”

          The verse 2:1:3 you provided is an example of ‘separate praise’, not joint oblation. What then is a joint oblation?? An oblation is an offering (Late Latin oblatio, from offerre, oblatum, to offer), a term, particularly in ecclesiastical usage, for a solemn offering or presentation to God. You seriously need to think. Where is a offering jointly made to Agni and Vishnu? Why do you not care to explain to the readers on this website the difference between a joint oblation and a joint panegyric, giving examples of both? Do you think that truth can hide behind your eloquent words?

          Please re-read this passage.

          Prajapati is a created being and hence cannot be a cosmic support. Lord Brahma from the Purans is called Prajapati in Vedic literature. If Prajapati is God, then why no temple in India is dedicated to Prajapati? Or is it because he is not good enough to be God, because of some silly mistake of his? My article on the rigin of Vedas has not been refuted even a bit, by the grace of God.

          I am surprised at your bogus claim that Shaakha is an explanation. I already discussed that in the article itself. It seems you did not read properly. You are playing with words here. How can you write explanations/editions? It shows the confusion within you regarding the true nature of the Vedas. Let me repeat what I said in the article.

          “If someone will say that the Shakhas are not Vedas but only the explanations/commentaries that would be erroneous. The presently known Vedas are also Shakhas. So are these commentaries or actual Vedas? To say that Shakhas are not the Vedas will be to undermine the present Vedas (read Shakhas) also. Considering the two opposing Shakhas of Yajurveda we may ask, “Is Madhyandina Shakha (Shukla Yajurveda) the original or Taittirīya Shakha (Krishna Yajurveda)?”.”

          Care to educate the readers, which of the two Yajurvedas is the real and which one is the explanation/edition? Which of the two Rigvedas, Shaakal or Bashkal is the actual Rigveda and which is the explanation? Samaveda has mantras from both Shaakal and Bashkal. So do you mean, Samaveda has been interpolated by explanations? The interesting things regarding your strange claim is that the present Vedas are themselves Shaakhas. Therefore, according to you, they are explanations/editions (like Ibn Kathir). Where is the actual Veda, whose explanations/editions they are? Lost forever??

          Then you said, “Shakhas are creations of the later day sages”. Ok. So Shaakhal Shaaka i.e. the present Rigveda is a later day creation. Case closed.

          Our facts are backed up by evidences. You are cherry picking few points from the article and imagine that you have refuted it. If you want to shut your eyes to the truth light beaming on your face, you make yourself intellectually dishonest. Quddus is intelligent enough to understand that you refuted nothing and are confirming my viewpoint with every new comment of yours.

          Peace.

          • Apolloreach says

            Faizan, he he…pls don’t try to claim a fake victory and run away. Please see my responses on that site…

          • Naveen says

            Namaskar Everyone, this is my first comment on this wonderful and knowledgeable site……
            I have never seen the people as confused as Muslims…!hehehehe
            and Islam & Hinduism Initiative is merely created to confuse the common mass….
            though i m not familiar with Vedas to the extent as Agniveerji, Appoloreach and other follower of this site are, but i m definitely not that confused as IslamHinduism initiativa, Zakir Naik and their followers are…;)

            1.Vedas stolen……:P
            Mahabharat’s Shanti parva states the incident when Vedas were stolen….first of all, we all know that Vedas are nothing but words of God, so even if the Vedas were stolen, they were regained by the owner of Vedas(Narayan/God himslef)……Brahmaji had memorised the Vedas but if the Divine wisdom was in the hands of rakshash’s, they wud have misused it…! or wud have dishonoured it….hence Brahmaji was in grieve, but the maintainer regained Vedas so that they cud not be misused….!

            2.Number of Vedas……
            well, somewhere i have known that Veda is a single knowledge base, but for the common mass, Vedas were partitioned into 4 different parts Rig, Sam, Yajur and Atharva…!!! besides, Yajur Ved is again partitioned into two, Krishna and Shukla…!!
            Patanjali Rishi have said that there are 101 Shakhas of Yajurveda, 1000 of Samaveda, 21 of Rigveda and 9 of Atharvaveda, well have he said that THERE ARE 101 YAJURVEDAS, 1000 SAMVEDAS, 21 RIGVEDAS or 9 ATHARVAVEDAS, NO, never…..hence how had you come to the conclusion that they are different different Vedas, when he clearly states that they are the Shakhas of Vedas, Shakhas are the lineage of rishi’s who recite the Vedas in particular style so that they can never be corrupted….and hence this verse states that the base of Vedas is so firm that it can never be corrupted as there are 101 Shakhas who protect the integrity of Yajurved, and similarly all other Vedas too are protected from corruption…!!!

            3. Different verses in Krishna and Shukla Yajurveda…….
            i guess this is…

          • Naveen says

            (contd)
            3. Different verses of Krishna and Shukla Yajurveda…….
            This question is totally baseless and invalid, as the author of the question is trying to compare two different Things……as i have mentioned in my reply to 2 issue, Yajurved is partitioned in two parts, Krishna Yajurved and Shukla Yajurved, both are different…!! both contain different number of verses…!!! how can anyone compare the verses of two different books…!!
            Krishna Yajurved+Shukla Yajurved=Yajurved….!!!!

            4. The Nirukt issue…..
            Appoloreach has given the reply to this issue…..once again this question too is baseless…!!
            Rig Veda 2/1/3: Hymns to Agni (joint obletion to Agni and Vishnu)
            तवमग्न इन्द्रो वर्षभः सतामसि तवं विष्णुरुरुगायो नमस्यः |
            तवं बरह्मा रयिविद बरह्मणस पते तवं विधर्तःसचसे पुरन्ध्या ||
            this is the verse which offers joint obletion to Agni and Vishnu….!!!! hence the claim of islamhinduism initiative stands bare naked…!!!

            Agniveerji, if i m wrong anywhere, please guide me, i m not having the knowledge of Vedas as u do have but i m not like ZN or his followers who are not ready to accept the truth…if i m wrong, i will accept the truth…!!
            Shri Satya Sanatan Dharm ki Jai……Jai Hind…! :) :) :)

  22. Apolloreach says

    @ Faizan, why do you lie? On the post pertaining to Origin of Vedas,on your friend’s website, the last 2 comments are mine. Please be honest with what u say.

    • Faizan says

      Last comment does not means that you are right. You have not responded to his question of Rishis making up mantras.

        • Apolloreach says

          @ Sameer, I had established with evidences that the Vedas predate Avesta and Gathas of Zorastrianism by aeons. I have not seen any response for that from Faizan’s friend for that and the other rebuttals I wrote on the post (on that site).

          • Sameer says

            @Apolloreach Bro Faizan Miyan has nothing left for debate so he is using fake websites. Anyway Apolloreach Brother you are doing GREAT WORK.

          • Apolloreach says

            Thanks Sameer and Bagladeshi Hindu: I will compile a set of rebuttals to the asinine charges of
            of those that are debasing Vedas. I have responded to some of the posts on truthofhinduism.ocm and
            as always you will see that they responded like kids or have not reverted at all. Please
            look up and follow Apolloreach,based on the comments section on the right hand side of the
            homepage of truthofhinduism website. I have responded to their allegations on sati, incest,
            sex with horse, polytheism in Vedas. I think Agniveer is responding to these allegations in
            a far more structured way with more depth and breadth.

  23. dogra says

    Hi Apollo Reach and Agniveer,
    Please can u translate the follwoing verses, as the anti hindu elements are quoting them as thus:

    “RACIAL CONFLICT between Indo iranian/ afghan aryans (Modern day kashmiris and punjabis) Invasions to afganistan and India 3000 2000BC:

    “Indra, the slayer of Vrittra, the destroyer of cities, has scattered the Dasyu (hosts) sprang from a black womb.” RgV. II 20.6

    “destroyed the Dasyans and protected the Aryan colour.” – Rg.V. III 34.9

    “bestowed on his white friends the fields, bestowed the sun, bestowed the waters.” – Rg.V. I 100.18

    Black skin is repeatedly referred to with abhorrence in the Rig Veda: starting with a description of the “black skin” (`Krishnam Vacham’) in RgV. IX 41.1, Sam. V I.491 and II.242.

    RgV. IX 73 it is said that “stormy gods who rush on like furious bulls and scatter the black skin”, and it claims that “the black skin, the hated of Indra” will be swept out of heaven – RgV. IX 73.5

    The Rig Veda thanks god for “scattering the slave bands of black descent”, and for stamping out “the vile Dasyan colour.” – Rg.V. II.20.7, II 12.4

    “Black skin is impious” (‘Dasam varnam adharam’) -Sans., Rg.V. II.12.4

    Recent archeological evidence has found ancient zoroaustrian iranian fire temples in punjab pakistan.

    RIG VEDA DESCRIBES ARYAN GODS AS BLONDS.

    Indra – 10.23.4 – “With him too is this rain of his that comes like herds: Indra throws drops of moisture on his yellow beard. When the sweet juice is shed he seeks the pleasant place, and stirs the worshipper as wind disturbs the wood.”

    Thanks
    Dogra-Humble foot ‘soldier’

    • Apolloreach says

      @ Dogra: Given that all around taqia, I hope you are a true dharmic foot soldier. If you are, great, if not, this truth is gonna burn the falsehood of the spin of ZN’s stooges. No surprises there that our ZN stooges are now talking about racism in Vedas. Let me give you one instance to call the bluff of ZN’s stooges. Please have them move up a few items above from Rig Veda/3/34/9. Given these guys are great Vedic experts, they can locate the hymns/verses. They will see a verse that states
      indrastujo barhaṇa a viveaa nṛvad dadhano narya puruṇi acetayad dhiya ima jaritre pra imaṃ varṇam atirak chukram asam. It means HE (Indra) made conscious these thoughts for his adorers, he carried this bright colored (varna) thoughts beyond opposition. The verses that deal with varna subsequently are about the varna of the thoughts of those that call upon Indra and the varna / color of the thoughts are true and luminous. Even this gets established in a verse. Again unless the airheads that you have quoted read many hymns that precede what they have quoted, they would not know it.

      But I just now saw someone on another site claim that Vedic verses have no contexts at all. The instance above runs contrary to that.

    • Aditya says

      I can see a lot of misinterpretations of vedas by muslims.My point is what is muslim’s qualification in sanskrit?There are two kinds of sanskrit.One is vedic and another is classical(Mastered and pioneered by panini).The vedic sanskrit was among a few only.From the advent of classical sanskrit,it has been the official and common language.the difference between vedic sanskrit and classical sanskrti is like the difference between Victorian english and american english.Moreover universities nowadays only teach classical sanskrit.Vedic sanskrit is taught only in veda patashalas.Does this mean the muslims who comment on vedas have studied in veda patashalas?Moreover no muslim has done even a diploma in Classical sanskrit,then how can they comment on vedas which were written in vedic sanskrit?This is a conclusive proof that people like Zakir are spreading the wrong messages about the vedas.Moreover I find even educated muslims believing this.If you use logic,you would question what is the source of muslim’s knowledge on vedas.

  24. Anupam says

    Absolutely magnificent. After reading such article one feels like living in pseudo world of Urban and Corporate living. I mean its quite dissatisfying to have been unknown about such science in all these years.

    Thanks for the efforts from Agniveer.

  25. CelticDharma says

    Hi Agniveer, great article, Could someone give a correct translation of RV 1.108.8 as I want to know what it says about the vedic tribes.

  26. hinduagnostic says

    very nice but the difference is we dont use the peservation to prove our belief true but muslima try do so they can easily be refuted

  27. Jay says

    Agniveer please delete this post as Singh has posted the same question on several threads. Truth Seeker already provided him a link to an article you wrote on this very question on this thread http://agniveer.com/scientific-errors-in-hinduism/
    So leave the question there, and please delete everywhere else. It is too ridiculous to have it posted everywhere on every article that has nothing to do with this question.

  28. jai shankar says

    @darasing,kya aap bina kaan ke shabd sunenge?,bina aankh ke bahar ke objects ko dekh sakenge?bina naak ke sungh sakenge?bina jiva ke bol sakenge? Aur sabse aham baat bina mind ke drasta ya sakshi honge? Ved ka arth hi gyan hai.aur ved mantra ke drasta rishi hai.jisne bhi satya ka sakshat kiya wo to satya ho gaya.”yato vacche nirvatantre mansa sah aanandam brahmeti vidvan na bhibheti kadachan” arthat jiski sari indriya vacha man sahit vilin ho gayi ho use hi satya ka sakshat hota hai.to wo us haal me kuch kahne me asamrth hota hai,sirf drasta ho sakta hai. use shabd me kah dena eshwar krut hai manushya krut nahi.eshwar ka gyan mantra ke jariye bataya,aise jitne bhi rishi ko mantra ka sakshat hua unko ved kahte hai. Ek hi mantra ka sakshat anek ko ho gaya to ve sirf darsta hai.mantra to eswarkrut hua.ved ka eshwar allah jaisa nahi hai,uske shabd sirf aur sirf muhammad ko hi sunai denge.ex.deta hu taki aasani se samaj me aaye ”ek onmkar satnam” is mantra ka sakhshat 10 sikh guru ko hua,to is se ye mantra corrupted nahi ho jata.aur kuch sikh bhaiyonko iska sakshat nahi bhi hua to bhi mantra galat siddha nahi ho jata.ye onmkar hi ved mantra ka pahala shabd hai, jiska 10 sikh guruonko sakshat hua,ve sirf omkar tak hi pahunch paye.ved mantra ka darshan unko nahi hua.

  29. aditya says

    Why can’t I see any Muslim/Christian in this section. Very interesting . Maybe they knew that they would get owned if they posted a comment here. COWARDS

    • aditya says

      Don’t take it seriously !! I have read all the Posts in this site. I have seen muslims and Christians Actively participating in all the posts , But in this when it is proved undisputed that vedas are error free , no one comments here. I am Just making an observation.

  30. Prasant says

    Hello!!,

    I would like to know what the vedas say about:-
    1) abortion
    2) Homo sexuality
    3) euthanasia

    If a direct reference cannot be found, please check if any of the above issues are in directly mentioned or discusses.

    The above three are issues that needs to be addressed by any modern society and i would like to know how your view points are.

    • aditya says

      Dear Bro,
      I have copy pasted an article on Euthanasia

      In 1996 Australia’s Northern Territory legalized voluntary euthanasia. In January of 1997, contending forces in the U.S. pushed the issue of euthanasia all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.

      Advocates of doctor-assisted suicide say its purpose is to end the unremitting and excruciating pain that often comes with diseases like terminal cancer. But does suicide really stop pain?

      According to Vedic wisdom, the answer is no. Rather, suicide prolongs pain and even increases it. From the Vedas we learn that the eternal soul, or atma, lives on after death. For the soul, the Bhagavad-gita says, “there is neither birth nor death.” At the time of death the soul reincarnates, or transmigrates from one body to another.

      According to the law of karma, the soul who has attained a human body has been put there to reform his life and finally attain liberation, in a spiritual body free from birth and death. The soul’s term in the human form is a type of captivity. How long he stays captive and how much he enjoys or suffers depend on his previous acts. To kill oneself or someone else interrupts the soul’s prescribed term of embodiment. This goes against natural law, or God’s law, and generates further reactions or penalties.

      By karmic law, one who commits suicide becomes a ghost. A ghostly or astral “body” consists of mind, intelligence, and false ego. The soul living in such a subtle body keeps his personality, his desires for human relationships, and his physical desires such as thirst, hunger, and the sex drive. But because of the soul’s disembodied state, he cannot satisfy these desires.

      Ghosts routinely wander for years, their natural desires raging unfulfilled. In an effort to fulfill such desires, ghosts sometimes haunt or possess another person’s body.

      So while suicide may apparently give relief from days, months, or years of physical or mental suffering, a lifetime of unabated misery is destined to follow.

      Physicians who take part in euthanasia and doctor-aided suicide are unnaturally ending the soul’s prescribed bodily lifetime. In the Netherlands, such acts are formally illegal, yet the courts have been allowing many exceptions to the law. Every year about one thousand documented cases come to light in which doctors cause or hasten death even without the patient’s request. Almost routinely, such violations go unpunished. Unlike civil law, however, karma is infallible and inescapable. According to karma, the lives of such doctors will be cut short in their next birth, often by acts of violence.

      Karmic considerations aside, what may be even more surprising is that euthanasia is most often performed for reasons other than to relieve physical pain.

      The most comprehensive study of the Dutch experience with euthanasia is the 1991 Remelink Report, which showed that “pain was a factor motivating requests for euthanasia in less than half of all cases. More importantly, pain was the sole motivating factor in just 5% of euthanasia cases.” A study of physicians who care for nursing-home patients in the Netherlands found that pain was the main rationale in only eleven percent of euthanasia requests. In the U.S., a Washington state study of doctors who performed euthanasia or assisted suicide found that pain figured in only thirty-five percent of the requests.

      According to Dr. Ezekiel J. Emanuel, a professor at Harvard Medical School, euthanasia is “a way of avoiding the complex and arduous efforts required of doctors and other health-care providers to ensure that dying patients receive humane, dignified care.”

      The main reasons for which people want euthanasia—depression, isolation, psychological maladjustment, and lack of care—reveal a pervasive spiritual vacuum. In an increasingly secular society, God has been consigned to a minor role. And godlessness has bred callousness. As the world becomes more materialistic and divorced from spiritual principles, so godly qualities like gratitude, tolerance, self-control, peacefulness, family unity, and human kindness retreat further and further into the background.

      The science of Krishna consciousness, which gives knowledge of the soul and karma, needs to be pervasively and systematically taught throughout the world. Only such education can rejuvenate a desacralized society and return us to our normal, natural position of love, with an understanding of who we really are and where we are going.

      Whatever the U.S. Supreme Court, the Australian Parliament, or other government bodies decide, involuntary euthanasia and doctor-assisted suicide are likely to proliferate. Without understanding the nature of the self and its movements through time and space, more people will blindly try to reduce suffering by acting in ways that will only serve to prolong and increase it.
      ================================================================================
      On Abortion-
      YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DO IT, Do you need more explanation ??
      =================================================================================
      On Homosexuality-
      AgniveerJi has an article on this-
      http://agniveer.com/hope-homo-10-07-2009/

      • Prasant says

        Dear Aditya,

        Thanks for the reply.

        Regarding abortion, what if the pregnency is the result of a rape and the lady does not want to have anything to do with it?

      • gkhinduatheist says

        “By karmic law, one who commits suicide becomes a ghost. A ghostly or astral “body” consists of mind, intelligence, and false ego. The soul living in such a subtle body keeps his personality, his desires for human relationships, and his physical desires such as thirst, hunger, and the sex drive. But because of the soul’s disembodied state, he cannot satisfy these desires.

        Ghosts routinely wander for years, their natural desires raging unfulfilled. In an effort to fulfill such desires, ghosts sometimes haunt or possess another person’s body.”

        Buddy, I don’t know how you go this non-sense about ghosts (bhoot pret) etc. If you’ll read the Satyarth Prakash by Swami Dayanand, you will realize that Bhoot actually means “One who used to exist or one who has died”. That’s why the past tense in Sanskrit and the Indic languages is also called BhootKaal. Similarly, Pret actually menas “Dead Body”, not a ghost or goblin.

        Here buddy! Let me help with finding the English translation of Satyarth Prakash from Agniveer.com itself:
        http://agniveer.com/light-of-truth/

  31. Jay Arya says

    agniveer a muslim claims that the vedas espically by agniveer that you are selling as been changed can you respond

    • Sanatan Dharma says

      @Jay Arya
      We do not need to waste time in arguments with people who have no credibility. What would you be prefer indulging in arguments all the time or focus on your goal. We are to reach to our goal and such people just do aim to divert our attention.
      How can you debate with the people who have the mentality that God would punish the people eternally if he fails to get worship from them?

      • says

        They are not Muslims. They are fanatics. They are spreading this myth because huge number of Muslims are obtaining Vedas from us and that is causing a scare among fanatic ones. The allegations are childish. It is due to 2 extra verses in one Chapter of Yajurveda in some editions. The extra verses are already part of another chapter of Yajurveda, so there is no missing or additional mantra. Some devotees recite these mantras at end of Chapter 25 as tradition, just as some people recite Om before every mantra even though Om is not present before any mantra. There are various methods of reciting Vedas but original Vedas remain as meticulously preserved as ever. Instead of raising hue and cry over two existing mantras, if such people would have devoted some bhakti on any one of the thousands of mantras of Vedas, they would have become better Muslims rather than admirers of Afzal Guru and Ajmal Kasab.

        • Jay Arya says

          i would see them as muslims and thanks for the response as these are allegations made against you not to anybody else if you dont some people may start believing in the allegations made against you that is why i was asking they have also made other allegations against you which if you want can respond

          • Aditya says

            Brother,
            By any ways are you referring to that Guy from IslamHinduism youtube Video?
            Don’t worry I have bombarded him with a lot of Logical questions and he had to Shut off the comment Section in that Video.
            But Still I have explained AgniveerJi’s point to him in his channel wall and I have said that “By the very act of this (Disabling the comment section) Sanathana Dharma is Winning and you are not able to defend Islam by Logic”
            Waiting for his reply.

          • Jay Arya says

            yes i agree many of his articles are nonsense which can be answered but some of them like the reincarnation article,beef eating in hindu scriptures i cant answer as i dont know sanskrit neither do i have authentic translation of vedas to refute him while the rest of them are against agniveer and satyagni only so they should answer the articles against them

  32. krishnarao says

    Here is the basic conclusion I have come up with. People have to lie about the Vedas to try and convert Hindus. Why can’t they look at what Vedic people themselves are saying the Vedas say and use those arguments against them. Instead they have to lie about it. Which means the argument is over there because neither will agree on what the Vedas say. The non-Vedic people know if they use the translations provided by the actual Vedic people they can’t defeat it.

  33. Santana Dharman says

    Even if a part of Vedas is lost, it will not cause any problem. We already have enough information from what is available as four Vedas. First let us apply them in our life. Then we shall go in search for extra..

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